What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
Showing Posts For Darius.4710:
1 2
When you call the mods, and when outsiders read this thread, you want a crystal clear proof the other side was just trolling.
Next time, when a new thread like this one pops, up you could just link to the arguments made here. If they’re ignored you can just call the mods and/or ignore the thread. After all, someone interested in a debate will prove it, and trolls will reveal their true nature this way.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
Obtena, I’m not sure if I should have been surprised, but I know I’ve had hopes you’d actually want to take part of a debate. You brought no argument to the table. Not a single argument to boot. You repeat the same explanations (not arguments, since they’re not) which have been proved wrong time and again.
Let’s start with the 3 arguments you keep ignoring, as they’re going nowhere. Links: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273377 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273378
Those arguments prove the blame lies with the “casuals” (as you call them) and human nature. Jerks are also to blame, but they belong to no specific crowd in particular.
You keep saying it’s in our best interest to teach, but not only you haven’t proved why, you ignored the fact some of the so called “elitists” do. By doing that, they go out of their way because they’d be perfectly fine even if they didn’t, and saying they wouldn’t only means you respect different values. Respecting different values isn’t a reason to ask another person to follow suit. Not when they’re not universal, and they’re not.
We’ve already established that:
- “Casuals” are the ones who often try to get into parties that might not want them, and not vice versa
- The so called “elitists” go out of their way when helping.
- Many “Casuals” don’t even bother asking what a LFG sign means, much less going out of their way by doing any kind of homework like watching videos, reading, etc. (or even just ask where to find those materials).
So basically you’re asking people to go of their way to help those who won’t even ask what a LFG sign means. Seeing as your only reason for asking this is the fact you respect different values, we’re left with one course of action: Rejecting your explanation. Your respect for different values is neither sound logic or evidence so it’s not an argument.
As usual, you’ll ignore this argument, as it’s not the first time it was presented in this thread.
As for your attitude, which included trolling (using your own words here), you might want to take a look here:
the rest was just a nice story that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about how you act to people that don’t meet your requirements. What you want me to say? You’re right about apathetic people not learning what you want from them because you’re so helpful?
This quote summed it all up nicely. You’re judging others for respecting different (also more universal, mind you) values. You’re openly saying it’s ok to disrespect other people’s right to play with like minded players, as proved here and previously too (you didn’t even reply). Now you’re also asking for people to go out of their way…
Conclusion: You keep harming the “casuals”. You’re doing them a major disservice. The so called “elitists” are presented with well made arguments proving the fault lies not with them but with jerks, human nature, and the “casuals”. You promote disrespect to different values, which is also demonstrated when you’re judging them left and right. After all that, you’ve not a single argument to boot.
Obtena, if you really (honestly) care about “casuals”, stop it right now and bring a real argument to support them. You only push the other side away from going out of their way to help. This is the current status, and you’re asking for a change, not the other side.
So what will it be? Will you prove you actually care about “casuals” or will you prove you’re only here to try to cause drama?
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
When was the last time you reported those players for harassment? You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask Anet if it’s ok to harass you, especially if it’s due to the use of your right to play with like minded people. You’ll be delighted by their response.
Keep in mind that this kind filtering takes place before the dungeon starts, not after, unlike kicking a player at the last boss.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
It’s all well summed up right here:
Argument No. 3
Seeing as:
A. Performance oriented segregation pre-dated video games.
B. Performance oriented segregation existed during UO, even pre-Tram (Ultima Online before Trammel existed).
C. Performance oriented segregation existed even in the most hardcore RP guild, even in servers/shards where there was no performance oriented guild/team (on the server).
D. Performance oriented segregation existed in the least performance oriented (Play How I Want) guilds possible, even when there was no performance oriented guild/team on the server/shard.
E. Players will adopt (behavioral) patterns they like and will do their very best to reject the ones they don’t. As best as they possibly can.
Concluding argument number 3: For reasons A-E, the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones to blame. Human nature is, and so are some of the players who don’t perform as well, not the so called “elitists”. You could add that some players’ denial when faced with a reality, that isn’t desirable for them, is also to blame, but that’d be a part of human nature.
You might think that guilds who openly reject performance as an important value actually act this way. When faced with a reward they find desirable, but unattainable, they start changing, even if not openly. Many times they don’t openly do so. They use various excuses, and may even be in denial, but they’re avoiding the ones who don’t perform well while actively seeking the ones who do. Not doing so openly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it.
Whoever claims the so called “elitists” are to blame, would first have to refute this argument, as well as the first two which weren’t quoted here. So far the “casuals” have no single argument to boot, which only makes things worse.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
I see no reason, if you’re not short on time, to explain what the LFG sign means if someone joins and asks right away. If you’re short on time you could say that he might not fit and you’ll be looking for someone else. Neither option is wrong, but it’s so rare to find someone who’s asking (right away) after he joined. It’s even less common to have someone ask before joining.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
In addition:
Here are a few more examples of you just being judgemental just because other people’s values might differ from yours:
- “It also means that if players have special requirements to higher performing teams, they need to educate people on what that means and how to do it”. Who’re you to tell them that it’s not ok to just ask for people who’re ready without having to teach everything?
Teaching others is, by no means, an obligation, nor is it inappropriate not to teach others. If they can’t find people due to their requirements it’s their problem. It’s none of your business! Their requirements are their business, not yours! If other players adopted this behavior it’s because they preferred to, unless you prove (really prove) otherwise, which you haven’t so far.
- “The toxic approach taken in the Guardian forums to do that over a year ago was a failure”. There were griefers (or jerks), but they came from both sides! Both sides share the same responsibility! In addition, some of the “casuals” blamed some of the so called “elitists” for misbehaving just because they presented (politely) counter arguments which proved them wrong. They didn’t like being proved wrong and took it as a personal attack. So basically we have jerks on both sides, which makes no side any more wrong than the other, and we have conflicting values which some of the “casuals” claimed was disrespect.
Conclusion: After all that, you’re saying the so called elitists are (or were) treating negatively? For heaven’s sake, take a look at the mirror. You’re judging people left and right while encouraging disrespect toward values that differ from yours. You tried your best to prove the other side is in the wrong but proved the exact opposite. What a major disservice you’ve just done to the entire “casual” (the way you call them) community.
Do yourself, and the “casual” community, a favor. The next time you try to help them, bring an argument. A real argument. No, the fact you respect different values isn’t sound logic nor is it evidence to blame the so called “elitists” for the things you mentioned in your posts.
Obtena, take a few moments with yourself to re-evaluate your next step. If change is what you’re really after, then you’re doing the exact opposite. Judging the other side won’t get it to help you, especially when they’re no obliged to and it’s perfectly ok for them not to.
This is one of the only threads, regarding this issue, in which the “casuals” have been represented by someone serious. The other side is more than well represented right now by real arguments. Well made arguments. If you bring forth such arguments you’re going to help the “casuals”. So far you’ve only harmed their side. Right now you haven’t even a single argument (real argument) supporting the “casuals”.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
snip
No. Just… no.
Players of different mind sets tried discussing a related topic on these boards, and they also tried playing together in parties (or form them). The fact you label some behaviors as negative, due to values differences only, only proves your posts hold no water. When a build is discussed on these boards, which are free for everyone to participate, people will also find conflicting opinions and counter arguments. Some people say they’re being treated negatively if they’re presented with a conflicting opinion or a counter argument, even if they were presented politely!
What you’re doing is lumping up griefers (or jerks) with the so called “elitists”. Griefers are players who’re being rude when interacting with other players or posters. There are griefers on both sides! The fact some people are being rude about their mind set doesn’t make the mind set bad, it makes their behavior bad, plain and simple! If someone’s being a jerk, the problem is that he’s a jerk, it doesn’t mean his mind set is in the wrong.
Now, after we’ve established that you’ve made a mistake by blaming the so called “elitists” by lumping them together with the griefers (who exist on both sides!), we can get to the other problem. This problem is the reason that the blame lies with some of the “casuals” (as you call them), and not with the so called “elitists”. The reason is summed up very well in the three arguments I posted earlier and haven’t been refuted. They’re going nowhere until they’re properly addressed. Links: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273377 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273378
Your main issue has to do with the fact you think you have the moral high-ground. However, you don’t. It’s actually the other way around.
- You say their head isn’t screwed on right when you disagree due to value differences, and that only makes you judgemental instead making them wrong.
- You say it’s not ok to expect other players to respect your right to choose who to play with (“expecting people to abide and washing your hands of the responsibilities of ensuring your in a team you want makes no sense”), which means you’re trying to dictate which values should be respected and which ones shouldn’t. You’re being judgemental again and here you outright encourage players to disrespect others due to value differences.
- Trying to strip the responsibility from the “casuals” for the reason you mentioned (“I doubt many people will ask about the LFG message if they don’t understand, care or know”. ) doesn’t give them the moral high-ground. It actually makes them disrespective to other players’ values. So, basically, you’ve failed to bring any real arguments for them not asking what’s in the LFG sign before joining (when they don’t know), or right after. The explanation to those signs is short and there’s usually no reason not to answer politely.
- You’re suggesting that segregating based on performance related standard isn’t right (“if a player who likes to dictate or question how others should play gets himself ridiculed or kicked from a team because he doesn’t meet the team requirements, he should just suck it up.”), with the only reasoning being value differences again. This is the exact reasoning you’re trying to bash. Who’re you to say which values are worth respecting and which ones aren’t?
[To be continued…]
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
That goes without saying …
snip
Your post would actually hold water if it was so difficult to find a party when saying “all welcome” or by joining a guild of like minded people. Casual guilds aren’t difficult to find nor are they difficult to get into. This is the bottom line, not points number 1 and 2 in your post. Those points would hold water if it made your grouping impossible, yet it just isn’t true. Some of the best performing players in the game help lots of players. Heck, many players made their own way with crappy gear, sub-optimal builds, no videos, etc. They were willing to put forth the effort and joined forces with like minded individuals.
Defending players who won’t be willing to put forth the effort, and blaming the ones who don’t go out of their way to help, isn’t going to get the change you’re hoping for. It anything, it’ll get the opposite result.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
@shiren
Find a guild of like minded players, open a party saying “all welcome”. Those won’t take that long to fill, even if your class is resented by performance oriented parties. That said, your post holds no water.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
RP and performance can both be set as barriers. Few players, who’re not interested in griefing, value RP. Many more value performance, even if they won’t openly admit it.
Both standards which can be set as barriers, and none of them prevent players from playing the game. They prevent players from playing in specific parties when there are plenty of parties to go round. You could even start one yourself. It might not perform as well as the best performing parties. but you’re responsible for your choices. You’ve no choice but to accept this fact.
Why would anyone ask if it’s ok to join a PUG? Maybe because different PUGs could be just that. Different. As simple as it sounds. You may want a PUG to be an All Welcome group, but you can’t get everyone to follow suit. Why would anyone abide to your values? Just because you deem it appropriate?
If there’s a LFG sign, and you’ve no idea what it means, then it’s perfectly appropriate to ask (whisper) or join and immediately say you’ve no idea.
Honestly, Obtena, do you really take a moment to think of what you’re doing? Suggesting it’s inappropriate to choose who a said player will play with, or not (PUG or not, who cares)? Suggesting that your idea of a PUG should be accepted by others for no reason other than your own desire? Suggesting that players go out of their way to help others who won’t even ask what’s in a LFG sign they don’t understand?
Please, take a moment and think. If change is what you’re really after, you won’t be getting it this way. You must realize that your values are just that, and no more. No one has to abide nor is anyone acting inappropriately just because you don’t both share the same values. You’re also doing a major disservice when trying to move the blame away from the “casuals” (as you call them) when they’re to blame. For example, If they didn’t know, didn’t ask (so difficult?), and you’re trying to make them look innocent, then you’re not even close to getting any change.
You must start by addressing the real problem. As long as you unjustly avoid it, your chances of changing anything drop significantly. You’re just way too subjective and your explanations (not even arguments) hold no water…
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
I think that depends on what side of the fence you are on. Prior to LFG, there was zero way to set an expectation for who you wanted to team with, so even more unreasonable to be giving people a difficult time because they didn’t ‘play right’.
I think it’s also worth mentioning that the vast majority of people don’t even read the forums. How does a player even begin to familiarize themselves with what is required of a team advertising a speed run? It’s not even reasonable. There isn’t anything in the game that prepares players for player-created requirements like that. Then people get all upset when they get cleric guy joining on a speed run team? What else do you expect?
It’s not about “playing right”. It’s about standards that anyone has the right to set. Some players set a Role Playing standard to join their party. Do you see anyone complaining? Performance is desired by many, while some just won’t openly admit it.
Your reasons for lack of preparation are the ones which are unreasonable. If someone doesn’t understand what the LFG sign means, he could whisper the player and ask? He could also join and immediately say that he has no idea what the LFG sign meant and ask for an explanation. How many times have you seen players doing that, though?
I’ll repeat what I said to begin with: Your explanation is unreasonable, not the standards you claim that are unreasonable. Where there’s a will there’s a way…
Edit:
There’s a perfectly good reason to revisit history: To learn the reason it all happened to begin with. The blame, as proved by my arguments, lies with some of the players who don’t perform well. It also lies with human nature. Trying to change human nature, right now, is pointless. Trying to tell the ones who can’t, or won’t, adapt that they should start doing so now, will also get you nowhere.
So what can you do? You could kindly ask some of the so called “elitists” to be nice and help others who have a hard time. Keep in mind that they are not, in any way, obliged to do so, nor are they acting inappropriately if they refuse (to help).
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
Argument No. 3
Seeing as:
A. Performance oriented segregation pre-dated video games.
B. Performance oriented segregation existed during UO, even pre-Tram (Ultima Online before Trammel existed).
C. Performance oriented segregation existed even in the most hardcore RP guild, even in servers/shards where there was no performance oriented guild/team (on the server).
D. Performance oriented segregation existed in the least performance oriented (Play How I Want) guilds possible, even when there was no performance oriented guild/team on the server/shard.
E. Players will adopt (behavioral) patterns they like and will do their very best to reject the ones they don’t. As best as they possibly can.
Concluding argument number 3: For reasons A-E, the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones to blame. Human nature is, and so are some of the players who don’t perform as well, not the so called “elitists”. You could add that some players’ denial when faced with a reality, that isn’t desirable for them, is also to blame, but that’d be a part of human nature.
You might think that guilds who openly reject performance as an important value actually act this way. When faced with a reward they find desirable, but unattainable, they start changing, even if not openly. Many times they don’t openly do so. They use various excuses, and may even be in denial, but they’re avoiding the ones who don’t perform well while actively seeking the ones who do. Not doing so openly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it.
Final verdict: Unless someone actually refutes those arguments by providing well made arguments (real arguments), the so called “elitists” aren’t to blame. Some of the opposite players are to blame, as well as human nature.
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
I really did my best to refrain from posting, but I feel that now is the right time to start doing so, though I believe I’ll only take part of this thread and that’s it.
Some of the posters have been quite serious and constructive, while some haven’t. Some of those who haven’t been constructive have forgotten what a discussion is. To take part of a discussion you must provide arguments. A real argument is supported by evidence and/or sound logic. Without this support, it wouldn’t be an argument and therefore it holds no weight. None at all. I’ll start providing mine right away.
Argument No.1
Seeing as
A: It’s highly common for people to want the same reward, as those who have put forth the effort, without having to put forth the effort themselves. This is a well known fact that I need not prove here.
B: Some people lack the ability, or are unwilling, to adapt when they faced with a reality that is undesirable for them.
You get: Some people are trying to change this reality. In the case at hand those people do one, or more, of the following options:
1. Complain. For example, complain that they’re excluded from teams who have high (performance) standards.
2. Sabotage. For example, grief path sellers by joining their party and kick them, lying about them on the forums, etc.
3. Lie. For example, trying to join a party that’s clearly not interested in you, or lie to guild mates to avoid confronting them directly. In the latter case I refer to people who, for example, avoid a guild member who doesn’t perform well by using various excuses, while doing the opposite to play with a guild mate who does.
I’ll conclude the first argument by saying that for the reasons found in A and B, combined with actions Number 1, 2 and 3, some of the players who don’t perform well are the ones who contributed to the situation at hand, not the so called “elitists”.
How many times have you seen players who perform well complaining that they didn’t get into a casual “all welcome” team? Never, or almost never. How many times have you see the opposite? Very often. Very often indeed.
How many times have you seen well performing players trying to sabotage the “all welcome” parties? Not often if not very rarely. How many times have you seen the opposite? Very often. Very often indeed.
How many times have you seen a well performing player trying to join a group of, say, RPers who aren’t interested in his presence? Not often if not very rarely (not for griefing). How many times have you seen players who don’t perform very well trying to get into well performing teams undetected? Very often. Very often indeed.
Arguments No. 2
Seeing as:
A. It’s only natural for players to look for other, like minded, players.
B. It’s only natural for players to avoid the company of players who aren’t like minded.
C. There are many complaints of players, who don’t fit said performance standards, that they’re being avoided by the ones who fit those standards. The opposite complains don’t exist, or almost don’t exist.
Concluding argument number 2: For reasons A, B, and C, you see that most of the players who aren’t looking for like minded players, as people would naturally do, are the ones who don’t perform well. This is another proof that they contributed to this conflict by trying to get well performing players to cooperate with them (quite often against their will).
If they really have fun playing the way they want, why are they trying to force themselves on others who’re trying to avoid them? It’d seem that there are quite a few who value performance, even if they refuse to openly admit it. Please note that playing meta doesn’t have to equate to not having fun for the ones who practice it regularly.
[To be continued…]
What do you gain by bashing the so called “elitists”? Reputation?
(edited by Darius.4710)
1 2