Guild Wars 2

I hope it’s just a break. As I said before, he/she was a contributing member.

That’s too bad. As I said myself, Vee Wee was a contributing member of this community. I might not have a few things he/she did, but I praised the good things he/she did (as well as defend him/her form some of the false claims against him/her).

The last Vee Wee thread went south, and my point there was proved anyway, so I’m ahoping this thread not to continue the previous one (not the topic that took place when it has gone south).

You call a moderator and ask this thread to be closed.

It’s quite expected this would get out of control. A few (just two, actually) were quite relentless in their attempts to defend someone they like. It’s common thing for many people, you know, rejecting facts they find uncomfortable. Trying to demonize the one presenting those facts is just as common.

I didn’t intend for this thing to end up so long, but when you have some relentless defenders (and someone who agrees to discuss the issue with them), it ended up this way eventually.

Promoting “play how you want” is great, and Vee Wee does well in this matter. I commend him/her for that. However, one fact Vee Wee doesn’t emphasize (on purpose, or not), is the consequence (PvE).

I’ve lost count of people I helped in game, and I can tell that the average Joe is anything but skilled. That said, spec matters to those guys even more than the skilled players, and even they’ll be affected by their spec choice.

Spec and skill are apples and oranges, both matter. Plain and simple. Saying the clearing time is barely influenced by specs, especially for the average Joe, isn’t even nearly true. Not by a long shot.

In addition, many many players do their best to be a part of Meta teams, and real ones will reject players using non Meta specs. This is another consequence. I think it’s only fair that anyone, Vee Wee included, would do well to tell about those consequences as well.

Saturn.6591:

Gosh… okay; hold on:

Darius.4710:

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

I’m sure Vee Wee wasn’t refering to people calling builds bad that truly are bad… like, a PvE-build with a mix of apothecary and cavalier gear and traited for Static Discharge and Elixir Infused Bombs would be, for example. She was obviously refering to people who call other people and their builds bad just because they do not run the ultimate minmaxed meta-build, but another build that’s good but just not… well, not meta because it does a bit less dps or so. Which btw is exactly what “elitist” means, or at least that’s how the word is generally used in the GW2-forums.

Darius.4710:

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

Again, Vee Wee was most likely refering to people who look down upon everyone who doesn’t use perfectly min-maxed meta-builds and throw spreadsheets at everyone who dares to say something like “But I’d prefer to play something that’s more fun to me and still does well, even if it’s not the absolutely most optimal build that currently exists.” And not to people who min-max because they like to do so but understand that not everyone likes to (nor has to) actually use exactly those builds.

Darius.4710:

By the way, since you mentioned the term Relentless, what would you call someone who relentlessly keeps writing about his rank in each and every post he writes? The least you could tell about such a person is that he’s quite relentless. Not only that, but you’d also find it quite hypocritic when such a person tells another he’s being relentless for meeting you in 3 threads (same sub forum) out of the large amount of threads you took part of…

“Relentless” was partly meant as a general statement. But of course it also was indirectly directed at you. But not because you’ve both posted in the same thread a couple of times, but because this silly discussion keeps going on like the future of the world would depend on it, instead of you two just “agreeing to disagree” like I’ve mentioned earlier. ^^

Oh, and mentioning that she’s world’s first rank 80 hasn’t anything to do with being relentless. Unless you mean “Vee Wee is shoving that into my face without mercy until I just can’t take it anymore! Please help me!”. Imo, that way of posting is just a quirk that she keeps up just for fun.

Wahoo!

^^

Gosh… okay; hold on:

It’s crystal clear that Vee Wee was talking about builds. You can see him/her talking about people saying a build is bad, related mathematical proof, and the way he/she thinks it affects clearing times. In addition, the term Elitist has been used by various people in many different ways, so you can’t really say it’s only meant to refer to people who attack others personally (instead of the build alone).

This discussion keep going because you won’t expect me to just ignore people who want to take part of this discussion, like what we’re doing right now (discussing). Now it has anything to do with “like the world depends on it”? Seriously? Have you seen how many times, across different sub forums, Vee Wee has been talking part of (sometimes heated) discussions regarding builds and related attitudes? If meeting 3 times on the same sub forum is relentless, and you’re trying to defend Vee Wee (at least to an extent), perhaps you should learn more about Vee Wee’s relentlessness. That’s hypocritic on your side, not to mention his/hers.

By the way, you might find Vee Wee’s relentless rank show off as fun, but even in this thread there’s enough proof that not everyone thinks this way. I fact, more people (over other threads too) cared to mention they didn’t think it’s fun than the amount of people who came to Vee Wee’s defense in my case. It’s quite telling…

So are you here to blindly defend Vee Wee when the facts are clearly against you? Will you keep the “I’m sure….” assumptions that are clearly against the facts?

Saturn.6591:

Darius.4710:

Let’s see… calling people nerds or elitists due to value differences isn’t offensive, you say? Yeah right…

Nowhere die I read a sentence like “you’re an elitist!” or “you’re a nerd!”. All that I recall Vee Wee saying is, that some people show elitist and/or nerdish behaviour (which doesn’t mean they are elitists or nerds; just that they sometimes act like them). It’s just an observation. Also, while I can understand that someone MIGHT find “elitist” a bit insulting, I’ve never heard of anyone feeling that way for “nerd”. Some people even use it as a term of endearment, lol. I would totally understand that you’re making such a fuss over it if Vee Wee would have called people “holewherefoodexitsthebody” for acting in a certain way or so. But such a fuss because of words that wouldn’t even be insulting if they WOULD BE aimed at someone directly (which they weren’t)? I would ask if you’re maybe bored or so, but I guess you might think of that as an insult as well.

Let’s start by saying that there are quite a few who’d consider “nerd” an offensive term, especially when someone who disagrees with their values tags them this way. Tagging someone, or a group of people, as Elitist/s is clearly offensive. MMO (and forum) history proves this fact very well. The main reason for the large amount of posts in this thread (regarding this issue) has a lot to do with Dustfinger. He thought he’s right at first, so I actually admire his efforts.

Why am I not doing the same with every one-liner troll? Well, trolls are regarded as trolls as aren’t taken seriously in many cases. Vee Wee, on the other hand, isn’t regarded as a troll, but as a contributing member, which he/she is. However, when someone who keeps trying to come across as friendly (frandly), I have a good reason to show he/she isn’t always like that.

You were also probably looking for the following quote to see where the accusations came from, because you don’t seem to know what really happened:

Darius.4710:

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Well golly gee willikers my frands! Vee Wee goes to work and comes back to see a novel written about pointless things! If Vee Wee has learned anything about the 4ums, it’s that people who don’t like you are relentless! You reply to them once, maybe twice, and then just stop! If you don’t, you’ll have the back and forth go on for hours! Geez louise!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Let’s see… we’ve met on 3 different threads on the same sub-forum when you’ve taken part of so many more threads. At first you say it’s stalking, and now I’m called relentless for trying to respect Dustfinger (otherwise it would surely not be that long, and you know it).

Dustfinger thought he was right. He had good intentions, at least most of the time. Are you suggesting I ignore him instead of respecting him? Is this what you’re saying? If not, tell me. Perhaps it’s a misunderstanding on my part.

edit:

By the way, since you mentioned the term Relentless, what would you call someone who relentlessly keeps writing about his rank in each and every post he writes? The least you could tell about such a person is that he’s quite relentless. Not only that, but you’d also find it quite hypocritic when such a person tells another he’s being relentless for meeting you in 3 threads (same sub forum) out of the large amount of threads you took part of…

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

Dustfinger.9510:

Fascinating!

Tell me more of these mysterious missing posts. What did they entail? Where did they go? Is it too painful to talk about? Did the posts pack up and move out because of something you said in anger but later came to realize you never meant and if they would just answer your phone calls they’d see how much they need you just as you need them?

I tried respecting you, but you’re so emotionally involved that you can’t do the same. You let it get in your way. I guess that’s your way of making your exit when you’re wrong. Oh well.

As for the missing posts, let me tip you about moderation, since you don’t seem to know much about it. If you reply to a post they deleted, they delete your post as well.

Relax, being emotionally involved isn’t a good thing.

The mystery posts that would tie it all together. Shame they ….. can’t ..be…found. And of course you weren’t emotionally tied to posts that were so bad that the mods stepped in. Even though you apparently continued to respond to them. Not to mention the fact that they weren’t mentioned until just recently, only after we had to go through all of this. Just to find out that most of what was discussed and responded to…….. and defended by you had nothing to do with your entire point. But, I’m happy to let the greater forum community decide what actually happened here, if you are. I can’t tell if this experience has brought us closer together of farther apart.

OT:

Veewee talk tai. Veewee talk tai, real good!!!

You know some of your posts could get the moderators attention, and you know exactly why. Now, if they’re deleted, so will my replies to you. According to you my posts were problematic in one way or another, right?

I only recently mentioned the fact I replied to a part of Vee Wee’s post, instead of the entire post. Since it was only mentioned recently I must had something to hide, according to you, right?

We get it, you were wrong. Now you’re trying to do your best efforts to make sure I’m in the wrong somehow. You know it’s also one of the signs telling how emotionally involved you are. Just like the ways you finish some of your posts. By all means, go on, but don’t say I wasn’t trying to spare you the shame…

If mine get deleted yours will be for the same reason. But as I said, I’m happy to let the forum community decide. This is why I post links

I’d seriously like you to tell me why are my posts against the rules. I’m seriously asking you to do that, because if I violated the rules I’ll learn for the next time.

By the way, the reason I quote instead of sending links is because I want everyone to see. Now, the problem is that the posts in your links might be changed, but your quotes can’t. I took it to the next level before you found your “cool trick” to let everyone else see what really happened…

As I said, I’m a supporter of backing up one’s claims with proof rather than thin air.

Saturn.6591:

In this thread: Darius accuses Dustfinger of being too emotionally involved. Yet, it’s Darius who feels that things are rude and offensive which apparently most other people don’t consider rude or offensive in any way.

Let’s just agree that you two disagree (with eachother). Wahoo!

Let’s see… calling people nerds or elitists due to value differences isn’t offensive, you say? Yeah right…

If a huge chunk of MMOs’ forum history wouldn’t blatantly prove you wrong, I’d actually take it seriously. There are more than enough threads, even over these boards only, that provoked quite a lot of flames for those exact reasons.

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

Dustfinger.9510:

Fascinating!

Tell me more of these mysterious missing posts. What did they entail? Where did they go? Is it too painful to talk about? Did the posts pack up and move out because of something you said in anger but later came to realize you never meant and if they would just answer your phone calls they’d see how much they need you just as you need them?

I tried respecting you, but you’re so emotionally involved that you can’t do the same. You let it get in your way. I guess that’s your way of making your exit when you’re wrong. Oh well.

As for the missing posts, let me tip you about moderation, since you don’t seem to know much about it. If you reply to a post they deleted, they delete your post as well.

Relax, being emotionally involved isn’t a good thing.

The mystery posts that would tie it all together. Shame they ….. can’t ..be…found. And of course you weren’t emotionally tied to posts that were so bad that the mods stepped in. Even though you apparently continued to respond to them. Not to mention the fact that they weren’t mentioned until just recently, only after we had to go through all of this. Just to find out that most of what was discussed and responded to…….. and defended by you had nothing to do with your entire point. But, I’m happy to let the greater forum community decide what actually happened here, if you are. I can’t tell if this experience has brought us closer together of farther apart.

OT:

Veewee talk tai. Veewee talk tai, real good!!!

You know some of your posts could get the moderators attention, and you know exactly why. Now, if they’re deleted, so will my replies to you. According to you my posts were problematic in one way or another, right?

I only recently mentioned the fact I replied to a part of Vee Wee’s post, instead of the entire post. Since it was only mentioned recently I must had something to hide, according to you, right?

We get it, you were wrong. Now you’re trying to do your best efforts to make sure I’m in the wrong somehow. You know it’s also one of the signs telling how emotionally involved you are. Just like the ways you finish some of your posts. If I was so angry, or emotionally involved, why am I still trying to help you? Perhaps your efforts to demonize me were spend the wrong way?

Dustfinger.9510:

Fascinating!

Tell me more of these mysterious missing posts. What did they entail? Where did they go? Is it too painful to talk about? Did the posts pack up and move out because of something you said in anger but later came to realize you never meant and if they would just answer your phone calls they’d see how much they need you just as you need them?

I tried respecting you, but you’re so emotionally involved that you can’t do the same. You let it get in your way. I guess that’s your way of making your exit when you’re wrong. Oh well.

As for the missing posts, let me tip you about moderation, since you don’t seem to know much about it. If you reply to a post they deleted, they delete your post as well.

Relax, being emotionally involved isn’t a good thing.

oxtred.7658:

btw flamethrower auto attack is useless in pve

kthxbye

Setting aside what you were trying to do here, it belongs to a FT thread, not here. This is a Vee Wee thread.

Dustfinger.9510:

Oooooohhhhhh!!! LOL!! I see where the misunderstanding was. The majority of this entire page that you have been making points and counter points to…. wasn’t actually part of your conversation, even though it was a huge part of your actual conversation. I get it now.

Have you got completely insane by finding out you were wrong? You’re way way too emotionally involved. Take a step back and see how much it shows.

My first post in this thread quoted an entire post, and I replied to a part of it. It wouldn’t be the first time someone did that. In fact, it’s extremely common. You thought I was trying to say Vee Wee was wrong for going against someone who attacked the player himself (“bad engi”) instead of his build. I kept telling you it isn’t the case and most people won’t support the attacker.

My first post replied to the part of Vee Wee’s post which was talking about me (“burn baby burn” thread, some of it isn’t there anymore). and you weren’t aware of it. I proved Vee Wee was calling names due to value differences. I defended Vee Wee against the accusations regarding build rigidity.

I admired your efforts so I took my time now to show you what happened. Now take a step back, relax, you don’t have to openly admit you were wrong. It’s allright.

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

No, your facts are anything but straight, but I honestly admire your efforts.

Let’s start by saying it matters not if someone said, somewhere in a thread, that the player is the bad one, or if a build is useless. It matters not if the discussion evolved and Vee Wee wasn’t responding to that directly, which was the case in link #3. You also missed (on purpose, or not), the following part from that link:

Darius.4710:

“ellesee.8297:
Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
Vee Wee doesn’t understand! Didn’t Vee Wee say Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing! How is that being intolerant! We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad just because you’ll take 2 minutes longer to clear a dungeon if you run that build! And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is! Anyway again Vee Wee thinks people should play PvE how they want to play it! Whether it’s a thuper fun build like Flamethrower or some finely crafted build with the highest damage possible, play what you enjoy my frands!
Wahoo! Bye frands!"

You can easily see the terms “elitists” and “nerdo”, which is exactly what name calling is. All that was just because someone didn’t share the same values you do.

---

The first two links have to do with something that’s entirely different. I haven’t seen a lot of support for the quote from link #1. I have also seen no one accusing Vee Wee of anything regarding link #2. In short, it’s a strawman argument. Way to go?

---

See? Here’s your problem. You’re trying to defend Vee Wee at all cost. I also defended Vee Wee myself with my first post in this thread. As opposed to you, I don’t try to cover for one’s wrong-doings.

By the way, the last part of your post shamed you, not me, because you only proved how wrong you are. If you weren’t in such a hurry to declare yourself as the victor, you’d look allright. Now? Well, shame indeed. Shame…

Umm…… The second link from veewee immediately follows the first link from Rozbuska and specifically addresses the wording of Rozuska’s post. (Like what I’m doing here responding to your post). The third link from you specifically quotes the second link from veewee and uses the fourth link as “proof”. Anyone can confirm this. that’s why I post links.

You see, all that bolded actually does matter. It applies to the context of what was typed. Curious how earlier you were an advocate for context and now none of it matters. So me sticking to the context that you championed earlier suddenly becomes my strawman. Clearly you have no compunctions trying to cover for yourself. The secret to my success here is that I don’t need to cover for Veewee. History has been recorded here in black and white. it’s easily verifiable.

But now that I provide the link to that history, suddenly you don’t want context to matter for much. Even in a discussion about how disingenuous and intentionally misleading someone can be. ………Amazing.

This is funny. Just because I quoted the entire post never implied I was refering to each and every part of it. Have you seriously seen no case in which a post is quoted but the reply refers just to parts of it? Seriously?

Vee Wee said that someone called her names, and that was the part I replied to. Vee Wee was talking about me specifically, whether you were aware of it or not. It had everything to do with the “burn baby burn” thread. Some of the discussion isn’t there anymore. You weren’t aware of it and this is anything but my fault.

You have yet to refute the proof I provided which proved Vee Wee called names due to value differences. That said, my facts are the ones remaining straight. Yours, on the other hand…

Another funny part is that you’re saying I haven’t discussed the context in my last post which is wrong. Plain and simple. II said you’re trying to imply that a part of the thread was the one Vee Wee replied to, when it was actually far back (nor was it quoted by Vee Wee)…

You’re way too emotionally involved and keep declaring yourself as the victor, or as someone who proved I avoid context (etc.). Please don’t shame yourself. This is the second time you’re trying to make fun of someone else only to be found the one in shame.

Saturn.6591:

Darius.4710:

If you want to have any success, you need to follow two steps: Read carefully, and stop trying to defend Vee Wee at all cost.

If you want to have any success, you need to follow two steps: Read carefully, and stop trying to attack Vee Wee at all cost.

Seriously. Calling “this and that is elitist behaviour” and “that and this is nerd-mode” offensive and rude, while apparently thinking “only bad engis play this spec” is okay…

You’d have much much much more reasons to quote a couple of other people here and call THEM rude and offensive. But it ain’t fun if it isn’t Vee Wee, isn’t_it. ^^ (no dear filter, I’m NOT talking about the female chest…)

The next time you accuse someone for the opposite of what he actually did, do your homework. I specifically said that “only bad engis play this spec” doesn’t get any support from me or from most people. Now, are you finished being rude and offensive yourself?

By the way, even if I was in the wrong, which I’m not, it doesn’t make Vee Wee any less wrong. So you’re even more wrong than I originally thought you are. Follow the two steps and you’ll do fine.

No, your facts are anything but straight, but I honestly admire your efforts.

Let’s start by saying it matters not if someone said, somewhere in a thread, that the player is the bad one, or if a build is useless. It matters not if the discussion evolved and Vee Wee wasn’t responding to that directly, which was the case in link #3. You also missed (on purpose, or not), the following part from that link:

Darius.4710:

“ellesee.8297:
Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
Vee Wee doesn’t understand! Didn’t Vee Wee say Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing! How is that being intolerant! We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad just because you’ll take 2 minutes longer to clear a dungeon if you run that build! And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is! Anyway again Vee Wee thinks people should play PvE how they want to play it! Whether it’s a thuper fun build like Flamethrower or some finely crafted build with the highest damage possible, play what you enjoy my frands!
Wahoo! Bye frands!"

You can easily see the terms “elitists” and “nerdo”, which is exactly what name calling is. All that was just because someone didn’t share the same values you do.

The first two links have to do with something that’s entirely different. I haven’t seen a lot of support for the quote from link #1. I have also seen no one accusing Vee Wee of anything regarding link #2. In short, it’s a strawman argument. Way to go?

See? Here’s your problem. You’re trying to defend Vee Wee at all cost. I also defended Vee Wee myself with my first post in this thread. As opposed to you, I don’t try to cover for one’s wrong-doings.

By the way, the last part of your post shamed you, not me, because you only proved how wrong you are. If you weren’t in such a hurry to declare yourself as the victor, you’d look allright. Now? Well, shame indeed. Shame…

Please do yourself a favor and read it again. Not only a person isn’t an elitist for saying a build is bad, but also it matters not if it’s for any specific purpose or not. Check out my last post’s edit too.

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

Actually it’s your sensitivity that blinds you, and not the other way around. I specifically said I wasn’t supporting such claims. Now, follow 2 steps to help yourself: Read carefully, and stop defending Vee Wee at all cost.

I’ve read and dissected it for you. So……… yeah. No one said you were supporting such claims. That’s the strawman I mentioned earlier. I guess your still stuck on step #1?

Until you get your facts straight you’re still the one stuck at step #1. Check this out:

Dustfinger.9510:

edit: According to what you quoted, Veewee never says that saying a said build is bad for a said purpose is elitism. Veewee says saying a said build is bad…… is elitism. And there are elitists who simply disreguard any build that isn’t min/max as bad. Notice, veewee said "" We have some PvE elitists saying…" That doesn’t equate to all min/maxers.

Gotta love gut feelings. Something told me to check again.

Saying a build is bad has nothing to do with the player playing them. Elitism is about someone who thinks he’s better than someone else, many times due to value differences. You can be the best player but you’ll be playing a bad build in the open world soloing, or in a team that allows all kinds of builds. So, no, saying a build is bad doesn’t imply the player is bad too. This isn’t elitism. That said, calling them elitists is both out of line and false. This is intolerant and rude.

Dustfinger.9510:

edit: I notice you ignore the possibility that Veewee was specifically addressing that attitude that it is just plain useless in pve..

Read carefully once more:

Darius.4710:

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

It’s not about saying a build is useless. It’s not about saying a player is bad for using a bad build. Get your facts straight. You seem so intent on not doing it…

So, yeah, it’s step #1 for you

Dustfinger.9510:

Darius.4710:

If you want to have any success, you need to follow two steps: Read carefully, and stop trying to defend Vee Wee at all cost.

The term elitist was directly related to builds, not the player playing them. Get your facts straight. Here it is again, just for you:

Darius.4710:

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

Your sensitivity blinds you to the fact that there was a conversation going on before you got there. Here’s a snippet of the very first response:

Rozbuska.5263:

Still useless in PvE

Saying a build is useless simply because it’s not min/max is ridiculous.

Actually it’s your sensitivity that blinds you, and not the other way around. I specifically said I wasn’t supporting such claims. Now, follow 2 steps to help yourself: Read carefully, and stop defending Vee Wee at all cost.

If you want to have any success, you need to follow two steps: Read carefully, and stop trying to defend Vee Wee at all cost.

The term elitist was directly related to builds, not the player playing them. Get your facts straight. Here it is again, just for you:

Darius.4710:

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

The nerd mode, when connected directly to the min-maxing attitude, and as part of the above context, has everything to do with intolerance and rudeness.

If you take this chunk of your time to argue, why didn’t you do the same preparing? Here are a few parts off Vee Wee’s posts:

“The pretentiousness is palpable! Someone actually called Vee Wee an intolerant elitist for disagreeing with “if you run ft u bad engi”! Crazy!”

This is a false accusation until proved otherwise. Saying the other person was pretentious, regarding this (and other quotes) is also hypocritic…

“minmax nerd mode”

The min-maxing attitude was directly linked to the tag (nerd).

" We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad"

Saying a build is bad could be true and it doesn’t make one an elitist. Elitism has to do with being better than someone else. Saying a build is bad for a said purpose isn’t elitism.

“And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is!”

Proving which build is better is min-max nerdo? really? Especially when people often ask for proof? Please note how the tag (nerdo) is linked to the min-maxing attitude. Yes, again. Then Vee Wee claims this is what’s intolerant… good lord…

Dustfinger isn’t time you get your facts straight. You keep failing for this reason.
————————————————————————————-

Dustfinger.9510:

edit: Tagging a murderer who only murdered one person as a murderer doesn’t imply they regularly murder people. If you can’t grasp that concept, well, then it’s your comprehension that’s at fault. Your comprehension has no bearing on facts.

A murderer is someone who murdered a person. Even if just one. Telling someone he’s bad just because he was acting bad once isn’t right. Get your facts straight. Your comprehension has no bearing on facts. No bearing whatsoever.

Tagging a behavior isn’t nearly the same as tagging the person. Tagging the person implies this person is doing it on a regular basis. If you can’t tell the difference, well, then it’s your comprehension that’s at fault. Your comprehension has no bearing on facts. The facts will stay just as they are, regardless of what Dustfinger makes of them.

If English isn’t your first language I can see where your misinterpretation came from. Saying a certain behavior is elitist isn’t nearly the same as saying someone’s an elitist.

When your little girl was naughty and you told her what she did is bad it isn’t nearly the same as telling her she’s a bad girl. It’s that simple, whether you like it or not.. That said, I’m not guilty of name calling, even if you’d like me to be.

Have I been supporting the one saying an Engineer is automatically bad because of his spec, no matter what? Actually, in my last post I said I didn’t. I proved Vee Wee was calling min-maxers names for value differences. This is intolerant, rude and elitist (do you want more proof?). This is a fact until you prove otherwise.

The next time you say someone is being disingenuous, you might want to get your facts straight…

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

First of all my frand there’s no need to stalk every thread that Vee Wee posts in just so you can copy and paste a 5 paragraph essay! We get it! You are a min max PvE player! That’s ok! Enjoy the game! When Vee Wee plays PvEsports, Vee Wee welcomes your kind! It makes the run faster if you aren’t terrible!

Secondly, Vee Wee was replying to someone who said “If you run Flamethrower in PvE you are a bad Engi!” What kind of elitist nerdy statement is that! Crazy! Of course Vee Wee is going to disagree with that! Are you saying you agree with that! And you are the one calling Vee Wee the intolerant elitist! Well that’s just plain insane in the membrane! If you got offended by that when Vee Wee wasn’t even talking to you… well Vee Wee recommends getting thicker skin! This is the internet after all!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Are you seriously calling that stalking? You’ve taken part in way more threads than the 3 we’ve met in. In addition, if you stop being busy with the negative parts, you’d see that I actually started my last post defending you. You were being accused of things you haven’t done and I made sure people knew the truth. I also never supported the one saying that you’re automatically bad for using this spec, or that. Context matters greatly. Open world? PvP? Dungeons? etc.

As for what I said about you, I was saying that name calling, due to value differences, is an elitist behavior. It’s rude and intolerant, that’s what I said. Why do I keep quoting that long part? Well, I happened to be a supporter of backing one’s claims with proof, instead of thin air…

and this:

“ellesee.8297:
Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
Vee Wee doesn’t understand! Didn’t Vee Wee say Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing! How is that being intolerant! We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad just because you’ll take 2 minutes longer to clear a dungeon if you run that build! And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is! Anyway again Vee Wee thinks people should play PvE how they want to play it! Whether it’s a thuper fun build like Flamethrower or some finely crafted build with the highest damage possible, play what you enjoy my frands!
Wahoo! Bye frands!"

You can easily see the terms “elitists” and “nerdo”, which is exactly what name calling is. All that was just because someone didn’t share the same values you do.

While I don’t like some of the things Vee Wee does, I agree that Tolmos wasn’t completely right. Vee Wee does promote the “play how you want” attitude, and isn’t rigid. Vee Wee made sure you understand that your spec matters in PvP, though. This isn’t rigid.

So what’s the problem? The problem is that, like many “play how you want players”, Vee Wee isn’t tolerant as you (or he/she) would like you to think. In PvE specs matter greatly because of various reasons, among them the average skill level, serious time restrictions (real life comes first), trying to carry PuGs (so new players succeed), and the fact many have fun min-maxing. Vee Wee started calling names (nerd, nerdo, elitists) when someone didn’t share the same values he/she does. This rude and intolerant.

Here’s my proof:

Darius.4710:

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

It’s a thilly thing to call someone a bad Engi for running what they enjoy playing in a game mode where you can literally run the worst build and still succeed! You can run 0 traits and still succeed! The pretentiousness is palpable! Someone actually called Vee Wee an intolerant elitist for disagreeing with “if you run ft u bad engi”! Crazy!

As for PvP, the FT still does pretty terrible damage! It’s also buggy with the camera and terrain and really weak to retaliation! In Vee Wee’s opinion, Juggernaut’s might stacking capability is more useful roaming from place to place and having a few stacks ready for a fight than actually sitting in Flamethrower during a fight! If you were to use Flamethrower, Vee Wee believes the ideal way to use it is to swap to it, maybe blast your fire field, use your knockback and then swap out to something else!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

If you like your reputation you might want to actually tell the truth. The truth is that you tagged min-maxers as nerds, and more. Here’s the proof (can we see yours?):

Darius.4710:

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee agrees with you! But decent time is possible without going full minmax nerd mode! Vee Wee once did a Fractals 50 using a wrench build! Vee Wee completed this run in under an hour but most of all Vee Wee had fun! Or at least Vee Wee had the most amount of fun one can have playing the same instance that Vee Wee has already done over a 100 times before! Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing in a game mode where you can literally succeed playing the worst builds!

Vee Wee does not want to turn this into a PvP vs PvE but you have to admit PvE is really lackluster! It’s a shame because Vee Wee is not just a PvPer! Vee Wee likes to play all aspects of the game! But when high end PvE-ers resort to soloing the hardest dungeons for a challenge, then you know PvE difficulty is just pathetic and Anet needs to work harder to make it better goshdarn it! More dungeons! Maybe dungeons that require 10 people! Maybe hard mode versions of dungeons like in Guild Warts 1!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Tagging people as “nerds” (“nerd mode”) because they don’t share the same values you do is rude and intolerant. Few people say each and every player must conform to the meta, no matter when and where. Meta teams expect this conformation in their teams, just like they need to conform when those Meta players join another team. Their team, their rules.

The average Joe has only average skill level, which makes the spec even more important. Some players are also not so skilled, making their spec even more important than before. Even when skilled, spec has it’s impact. Spec and skill are apples and oranges anyway. The fact skill matters doesn’t, by any mean, negate the fact that spec matters too.

---

The average Joe has limited time, and clearing time are greatly influenced by specs, especially on an average (or lower) skill level. People have jobs, lives, or want to help others as much as they can. For many players it’s even more fun like that. They’re anything but nerds for those reasons. This name calling only reflects on the person who’s doing that.

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

It’s a thilly thing to call someone a bad Engi for running what they enjoy playing in a game mode where you can literally run the worst build and still succeed! You can run 0 traits and still succeed! The pretentiousness is palpable! Someone actually called Vee Wee an intolerant elitist for disagreeing with “if you run ft u bad engi”! Crazy!

As for PvP, the FT still does pretty terrible damage! It’s also buggy with the camera and terrain and really weak to retaliation! In Vee Wee’s opinion, Juggernaut’s might stacking capability is more useful roaming from place to place and having a few stacks ready for a fight than actually sitting in Flamethrower during a fight! If you were to use Flamethrower, Vee Wee believes the ideal way to use it is to swap to it, maybe blast your fire field, use your knockback and then swap out to something else!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

If you like your reputation you might want to actually tell the truth. The truth is that you tagged min-maxers as nerds, and more. Here’s the proof (can we see yours?):

Darius.4710:

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee agrees with you! But decent time is possible without going full minmax nerd mode! Vee Wee once did a Fractals 50 using a wrench build! Vee Wee completed this run in under an hour but most of all Vee Wee had fun! Or at least Vee Wee had the most amount of fun one can have playing the same instance that Vee Wee has already done over a 100 times before! Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing in a game mode where you can literally succeed playing the worst builds!

Vee Wee does not want to turn this into a PvP vs PvE but you have to admit PvE is really lackluster! It’s a shame because Vee Wee is not just a PvPer! Vee Wee likes to play all aspects of the game! But when high end PvE-ers resort to soloing the hardest dungeons for a challenge, then you know PvE difficulty is just pathetic and Anet needs to work harder to make it better goshdarn it! More dungeons! Maybe dungeons that require 10 people! Maybe hard mode versions of dungeons like in Guild Warts 1!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Tagging people as “nerds” (“nerd mode”) because they don’t share the same values you do is rude and intolerant. Few people say each and every player must conform to the meta, no matter when and where. Meta teams expect this conformation in their teams, just like they need to conform when those Meta players join another team. Their team, their rules.

The average Joe has only average skill level, which makes the spec even more important. Some players are also not so skilled, making their spec even more important than before. Even when skilled, spec has it’s impact. Spec and skill are apples and oranges anyway. The fact skill matters doesn’t, by any mean, negate the fact that spec matters too.

---

The average Joe has limited time, and clearing time are greatly influenced by specs, especially on an average (or lower) skill level. People have jobs, lives, or want to help others as much as they can. For many players it’s even more fun like that. They’re anything but nerds for those reasons. This name calling only reflects on the person who’s doing that.

and this:

“ellesee.8297:
Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
Vee Wee doesn’t understand! Didn’t Vee Wee say Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing! How is that being intolerant! We have some PvE elitists saying a certain build is bad just because you’ll take 2 minutes longer to clear a dungeon if you run that build! And then they back it up with talk of spreadsheets and dps calculators and etc! If that’s not a min max nerdo then Vee Wee doesn’t know what is! That is also where the true intolerance is! Anyway again Vee Wee thinks people should play PvE how they want to play it! Whether it’s a thuper fun build like Flamethrower or some finely crafted build with the highest damage possible, play what you enjoy my frands!
Wahoo! Bye frands!"

You can easily see the terms “elitists” and “nerdo”, which is exactly what name calling is. All that was just because someone didn’t share the same values you do.

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee agrees with you! But decent time is possible without going full minmax nerd mode! Vee Wee once did a Fractals 50 using a wrench build! Vee Wee completed this run in under an hour but most of all Vee Wee had fun! Or at least Vee Wee had the most amount of fun one can have playing the same instance that Vee Wee has already done over a 100 times before! Vee Wee advocates playing what you enjoy playing in a game mode where you can literally succeed playing the worst builds!

Vee Wee does not want to turn this into a PvP vs PvE but you have to admit PvE is really lackluster! It’s a shame because Vee Wee is not just a PvPer! Vee Wee likes to play all aspects of the game! But when high end PvE-ers resort to soloing the hardest dungeons for a challenge, then you know PvE difficulty is just pathetic and Anet needs to work harder to make it better goshdarn it! More dungeons! Maybe dungeons that require 10 people! Maybe hard mode versions of dungeons like in Guild Warts 1!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Tagging people as “nerds” (“nerd mode”) because they don’t share the same values you do is rude and intolerant. Few people say each and every player must conform to the meta, no matter when and where. Meta teams expect this conformation in their teams, just like they need to conform when those Meta players join another team. Their team, their rules.

The average Joe has only average skill level, which makes the spec even more important. Some players are also not so skilled, making their spec even more important than before. Even when skilled, spec has it’s impact. Spec and skill are apples and oranges anyway. The fact skill matters doesn’t, by any mean, negate the fact that spec matters too.

The average Joe has limited time, and clearing time are greatly influenced by specs, especially on an average (or lower) skill level. People have jobs, lives, or want to help others as much as they can. For many players it’s even more fun like that. They’re anything but nerds for those reasons. This name calling only reflects on the person who’s doing that.

Elrey.5472:

Sign me in for Classic runs. I’ve done everything in the game, got my legendary, multiple gears and armours… and i HATE with a passion stacking and skipping enemies.

Is not all about rewards, guys, it’s about the fun.

I want to also say: The people trying to force others to stack are the most toxic players i ever found in any MMO community. If someone wants or don’t want to stack, it’s ok. Both strategies (stacking or ranged dps) works for every enemy in the game (personally tested). It’s slower? probably, who cares about speed when you are having fun?.

The OP is asking for fun runs and we all know fun is relative. For me and her seems like fun is killing everything. The ones that doesn’t think the same… i don’t even know why they answer in this post, to bother us? sigh.

The only ones who’re being toxic are the ones who promote intolerance. You promote intolerance with your post right here. Calling other people toxic because they prefer their runs in a way you might not like? Now that is what’s called toxic, right there. Their team, their rules.

Do yourself a favor and avoid being toxic before you suggest others need to refrain form doing it…

Edit:

You and the OP are the only ones bothering. The OP for beating a dead horse and refusing to simply start his own parties (without starting yet another thread about this topic, which he admitted was a mistake), and you for spreading intolerance and toxic atmosphere.

Eckenhart.2816:

I already said i was wrong, let it go kitten it..

Really? Is that why you said this:

Eckenhart.2816:

I totally get that is boring and tiring to farm dungeons in the long hard way, but there’s a lot of people like me that are not actually farming anything, just playing for fun.

You just don’t seem to get that many people have chosen the fast because it’s fun for them. Yes, it’s fun, you’ve heard me. Even your quoted post proves your misconception that if it’s not the way you suggested it’s not “just playing for fun”.

Live and let live. Start your own groups. You could probably figure it out if you actually spend a moment of your time to think it through. You wanted to vent, you rightfully received some flak for that, and you still haven’t learned other ways could be just as fun. Maybe not for you, but you’re just another snowflake, and not a special one. It’s that simple.

Eckenhart, please stop lying. I just can’t stand it anymore. In the original post, which you deleted, you said the way you wanted was the proper way. Proper was the word you used. By suggesting the opposing ways are improper, you were being downright judgemental. You also said you were sure the devs didn’t have some tactics in mind, but who cares? They went public and said those tactics were just fine.

You say you’ve every right to voice your thoughts, but what if every thread you opened was moved 2 pages back just because many other posters started new threads about the very same topic? You don’t find it to your liking? Perhaps now you see the other side of the coin…

IndigoSundown.5419:

Unfortunately, most of the solutions to the presented problems involve better communication in dungeon PuG’s with random strangers on the internet. While this happens, it’s not all that likely.

Yes and no. Yes they’ll need to prove themselves to be helped, which includes some communication aspects. No they won’t be just complete PuG strangers because:

• They already walked that extra mile (more like 3 feet) when they joined the list/guild. This fact proves they have the motivation and probably know they’ll have to change (to an extent).

• They probably know that they can be promoted, and praised, for showing a good attitude.

• They probably know there’ll be consequences (kicked and their name slandered in public) for bad attitude, as there should be.

This is very different than random PuG strangers.

I know their kind. The know them very well. They’re often looking for legitimacy and/or a place where they can get back (sort of) at the so called elitists. They don’t stand a chance to get what they’re looking for with:

• The arguments. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273377 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273378.

• The fact [noob] exists. I’ve seen some complainers back off when faced with this fact.

• The fact others have come up with the current idea and are willing to be helpers.

• The fact that, after all of the above (points) combined, even some of the “casuals” are going to slap the complainers. I’ve seen it happen on forums and inside guilds.

And that’s not the worst part. If there was a PvE reward (they wanted) that was unattainable, you’d see them starting to avoid the ill performing members while finding every excuse to play with the well performing ones. Been there, done that, I’ve been to the most casual guilds possible as well as the most hardcore ones since UO (Ultima Online). It has nothing to do video games. It has to do with human nature.

Many players find their way to such guilds, and then people wonder where’s all that intolerance coming from. Real Elitism has to do with “we’re better than them (for moral reasons, usually)”. Just try getting them to face this truth and see how far you get.

The table has been set. The idea is formed and the “casuals” need to pick up the glove. Either they do that or have no legitimate reason to complain about the so called “elitists” (who’re not jerks, which many of them aren’t).

The ethical aspect is highly important. The attitudes some of the “casuals” show, when people are trying to help them (politely!) are terrible, or worse. In addition, dungeons might seem like a huge undertaking for some of new players who just want to join. They might simply want a place to find friendly teachers and friends so they can improve their performance in every way possible.

When someone simply joins a random casual guild (knowing there’s a teaching guild), he’s just looking for company. When someone joins this helping guild, he wants to improve his performance and maybe even be a teacher in the long run.

deSade.9437:

Darius.4710:

Quite a few of those uber casual guilds resent the so called “elitists” and their ways for no good reason. Yes, I said no good reason. Jerks are a part of each and every community. That said, those might not be the best places to learn how to improve your performance. Some of those guilds do anything but promote tolerance or help players who want to improve their performance in every way possible.

That’s absolutely 100% true. I tried one of those 500 casual guilds for a few months and they had stricter rules than rT. Far stricter. For instance, if you were someone like me or spoj you couldn’t possibly form a party with guildies, because putting ANY requirement or request in the LFG guild message was forbidden. So you couldn’t ask for someone with a bit of experience in the dungeon, for a class you felt was needed (say you had 4 warrs and you really, badly needed reflects)… if you asked for zerk, OHMAHGAWD, punch him ‘til he can’t get back up.
I wonder if spoj knows what I’m talking about
Also, you couldn’t really disagree with officers.
Nobody really answered when you asked for party in chat. They were only spamming kitten.
Needless to say I just blocked the chat and joined them for GMs only.
So yeah, I see where you’re coming from. Makes sense. The thing is, I doubt there would be many people willing to put effort into one more “helping” guild. It might turn into a second job.

First of all, if they don’t walk that extra mile, they’re absolutely no right to demand anything from the so called “elitists”. When the opportunity was presented, and they said no, they can only (and I mean only) blame themselves.

Now, seeing as it might become a second job, you could do what (some of) the helpers from [noob] do. They allocate their time properly so they don’t get tired of it. In addition, the helping guild’s purpose is also to create more teachers and relieve the administrative chores from the helpers.

The “casuals” will either have to walk that extra mile or blame themselves for not doing so (when complaining).

deSade.9437:

Huh? You’re not very informed about how [noob] is structured. There’s a rank which is reached by students that prove themselves to be good, so they’re like “promoted”.
Dunno if it has changed now. It was like this only a couple of months ago.
How many guilds do helpful players have to create, how many thread stickied, how many discussions linked, so the casuals and PHIWs wake up and start helping themselves?
And why are you referring to a guild that isn’t dungeon related? I thought we were talking about help in dungeons. If they don’t want that, they can join one of those huge 500-members, uber casual guilds.

Yes and no. Quite a few of those uber casual guilds resent the so called “elitists” and their ways for no good reason. Yes, I said no good reason. Jerks are a part of each and every community. That said, those might not be the best places to learn how to improve your performance. Some of those guilds do anything but promote tolerance or help players who want to improve their performance in every way possible.

The guild I’m suggesting will help with various aspects of improving one’s performance:

• Helping people find a way to get the info (like videos, reading materials, etc.) they’re looking for.

• Helping people improve their dodging skills.

• Helping people find like minded players to play with.

• Helping people find a refuge from intolerance promoting guilds.

• There are probably other things I didn’t mention here.

Basically it’s going to help people, who want to do that extra mile, find many more who’re willing to help. Some of the new members will eventually become teachers, reducing the huge load there is on the current helpers…. (and so on…)

I stand corrected about [noob], although I said I wasn’t sure if I’m informed in the first place.

Edit:

It’s also going to help the players who wanted to help others since they’re going to face far less grief than they currently do (when it’s unorganized).

You’re talking about a dungeon related guild. Some people aren’t looking for that. In addition, as far as I know (I’m not sure if I know well), [noob] isn’t being run by helpers, but there’s also no ranking system for players who proved to go out of their way (videos, reading, etc.).

What I suggested is that the “casuals” form a list/guild like the one I described in my previous post. The helpers help, the casuals take care of the rest, and the ones going the extra miles are promoted. In addition, it can be used to get a black list and a praise list. Players get the chance to earn their reputation, and vice versa.

Conclusion: The next time a “casual” is being a jerk, you could do more than prove he’s a jerk. You could point him toward the thread (and/or a guild, if it actually happens) and show him that the other side was willing to go out of his way for him. If he didn’t go out of his way, and he’s still complaining, then he’s only making fun of himself. He won’t only find no legitimacy, but will also find the opposite.

Wethospu.6437:

I still remember when after practising Mai Trin solo I decided to bring in pugs so more people would get rewards and then they kicked me after they all faceplanted before the first cannon barrage.

And yes, I was the selfish idiot elitist for not cooperating (= dying) so they could resurrect. Also it was my 100% my fault because obviously I should have instantly told them (before getting kicked in 15 seconds) that I’m the party leader (which no one even asked) while fighting against boss which just had wiped rest of the team.

Although they were in the wrong, perhaps there’s a solution for this. You need not do what you did. Why? Because it promotes intolerance. Your efforts are better spent with people who’ll obviously have a better appreciation for your efforts. They clearly didn’t deserve your help.

Here’s a possible solution to make a more coordinated effort, where it makes it not only easier for both sides, but also far more pleasant:

• Creating a list (perhaps a guild) of “casuals” who want to be helped in said ways. It could be dungeons, it could be open world, it could be anything.

• The list/guild must be some kind of moderators. If one of the helpers (who could be the moderators themselves, if they wanted) tells the moderators someone misbehaved, they put that guy on a black list and kick him from the list/guild. It’s possible to reward moderators so the helpers wouldn’t need to take care of this aspect.

• The list/guild could also have a forum, blog, or a way for the moderators and helpers to communicate with the list (and even outsiders). For example, the moderators and/or helpers could announce which player was banned and for which reason. Outsiders could take note and prevent that player from griefing somewhere else. The communication could be one sided to prevent any kind of grief. Make sure you note that when someone joins the list/guild he understands the possible consequences. A guild message perhaps, or a message on the blog/forum/whatever.

• List/guild members, who proved to go out of their way to help others and/or do their part (for dungeons it could be videos, for example), will be promoted and also praised on the blog/forum.

Basically what we have here is a way to promote tolerance, help, and (above all) allows one to build his reputation. If “casuals” want to be helped, they can take it onto themselves to organize this whole thing, and the helpers will do the rest.

If helpers go out of their way, it’s high time the other side proves it’s worth helping.

Sophie Gifu.9762:

Problem with elitism and tolerance within big groups of people also has to do with the learning process. Many people are willing to learn, but they either don’t know how to or do not learn as quickly as the community might like them to.

Let’s start by making sure that real Elitism, not the term some people are flailing around, exists on both sides. Whenever someone claims to be better, due to value differences (not performance alone, which can be empirically proved), he’s an Elitist.

Tolerance is, unfortunately, in very short supply due to two main reasons:

• The “casual” community includes some very nasty jerks, even though jerks exist everywhere.

• The so called “elitists” have what many “casuals” value (performance), not vice versa. Not all “casuals” care about performance, but many of them do. They just won’t openly admit it, sometimes not even to themselves.

So what can we do? Seeing as “casuals” seek the so called “elitists” help, and not vice versa (in almost every case), we must create an atmosphere that really helps tolerance. Jerks help, quite a bit, in creating intolerance. The more tolerant the atmosphere, the greater the number of people helping. This, in turn, contributes to this atmosphere, and so on. Taking care of the jerks, especially the “casual” ones (since one side wants the other one to help, not vice versa), will make a significant change.

How can we do that?

• Talking (politely) to the ones who seem reasonable enough to listen instead of alienating them outright. We’d get better results if someone openly admits his mistakes rather than alienating him outright.

• Alienate the jerks who not only complain about others being jerks, but also label them (“elitist”/“casual”/etc.). Those people usually seek legitimacy when complaining on the forum. The more we portray them as being a smaller (but vocal) minority, every time it happens, the more we help against creating of intolerance on both sides. After all, we’ve established the “casuals” want help more than their counterparts.

• Encourage (not force) “casuals” to help themselves before they start getting help from their counterparts. For example, learning to dodge, watching videos, reading guides, and so on. This won’t only make the helping experience far more enjoyable, but will also create an atmosphere where both (yes I said both) sides go out of their way to help. It really means a lot to the so called “elitists” who want to help. It can also deter someone from rejecting a player who needs help, as he sees that player went out of his way to do his part.

• Find ways to reward (no matter which way) the ones who help “casuals”. This will surely increase the amount of “casuals” being helped by their counterparts. This will, in turn, help creating a better atmosphere, etc.

• I’m sure there are more solutions as well.

Cookie, seeing as you’re not interested in debating that part, I won’t. I still think we’d get more out of this thread if we find solutions, like I’m trying to do here. I think this thread needs not die yet.

dlonie.6547:

Can we just agree then, that with minimal rewording:

“The jerks from both camps are why both see the other as evil.”

Jerks come from all tiers. Some wannabe elitists are jerks, some skilled elitists are jerks. Same for the other side.

Can we let this one die yet?

Just make sure the next poster who comes complaining about jerks, and lumps them with a said community (like elitists, casuals, RPers, etc.), remembers he’s a jerk as well. It’s totally inappropriate to trash the said community just because he’s been hurt by a jerk.

When you’ve been hurt by a jerk, and you flame an entire community for it, you’re also a jerk. Just try telling that to a raging poster who just got hurt and is only searching for legitimacy and someone to blame…

Cookie, one needs not be an extremist to be a jerk. Some jerks are extremists, but some aren’t.

Edit:

As a side note, I wanted to show you all something. The real definition of Elitism has to do with “I’m better than them”. The real elitism is both about judging and about superiority.

When a “casual” (as Obtena called them) labels someone as an Elitist (as a negative label), he actually becomes an Elitist himself. A real Elitist, mind you. By definition. It’s because he feels he’s better than them, usually due to value differences alone. This is the worst kind of Elitism.

I remember a time, on another game’s forum, when a raging “casual” labeled someone else an Elitist but was eventually proved (in front of everybody) as the real Elitist himself. He literally exploded (mentally)…

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Right. The assumption here is that all extremists are indeed jerks, and as such you essentially parroted what I just said (other than the edit section, but for what its worth I agree with it).

I didn’t parrot what you said. You just missed my main point. My main point is that we must separate the problem we have with jerks and their mindsets. My main point is that their mindset isn’t only irrelevant to the real problem at hand, but is also one of the major reasons we have this conflict (when lumped together with the fact they’re jerks, even if it’s irrelevant).

The problem, to begin with, lies with the fact that those extremists are being jerks. So basically the problem is that they’re jerks, not that they have this mindset or another. It’s when jerks are lumped together with other players, who share the same mindset, that we start having conflicts.

Calling someone a jerk isn’t the same as calling him “elitists scum” or “casual noob” (or “entitled casual”, etc.). That extra label is the reason for so much drama.

This issue exists outside games and predated video games. The real world (inappropriate) labels have a lot to do with race, religion, gender, and origin differences. I guess that are some differences I didn’t mention here.

Edit:

I know it all has to do with many people’s ability to express themselves well enough on these boards, but this isn’t the main issue (as long as there’s no false labeling). The reason I’m saying this is that it matters not what you want to say, as long as the other side isn’t receptive to your message(s).

Try, for example, telling a raging poster that he deserved his kick because he didn’t want to skip when the rest of the team wanted (and it was specified in the LFG sign). Let’s see how far you get…

I think that’s part of what’s causing all this conflict. The fact some “casuals” are acting like jerks is related to their mind-set, but the problem is that they’re jerks. The same goes for the so called “elitists”. The same goes for RPers, and I could go on. However if someone’s thinking, for example, that (some of the) RPers can’t be real jerks, he’s in for a big surprise.

Jerks are Jerks, and when someone lumps them together with other people who share the same mindset we’ll naturally be having a conflict. It’s just that it’s in many people’s nature to generalize, and that’s exactly why we’re having this conflict. All in all, if people blamed the right reasons alone, we wouldn’t be insulting the entire “[insert a label here]” crowd.

In a perfect world we’d be having threads like these:

“Why are some of the players setting standards to get in their groups? I don’t like it and I want it changed.”

“Why? Because they have the right to play with whoever they want. It’s their party, their time, their money, and it’s none of your business, even if you don’t like it”

“Ok, I guess I was wrong. Respecting different values is perfectly fine. I might have different values but not everyone has to follow suit.”

In the real world we have many threads like these:

“What the ****?! I want to play with Cleric’s gear and they kicked me (before the group started)? ****ing elitists ruining every game!”

“Get off your high horse, casual ****! Nobody owes you anything. Quit QQing! Entitled QQer…”

“You ****ing elitist! You’re the reason games go down the drain! You’re the reason communities are destroyed!”

And then some people wonder why are we having this conflict…

This is no easy task for Anet to pull. Even if they’d want to allow more screening within the LFG tool they’d have to:

• Openly admit they submit to what some of their customers define as Elitism.

• Spend more resources on doing that, which is not so simple. Screening both builds and gear won’t be that easy to pull.

Keep in mind that Anet fully understands that the so called “elitists” can overcome the screening issue by kicking.

The hands off approach won’t survive the game’s current iteration because it’s too easy to disrespect other players. I’ll spare you the entire MMO history lesson, but I’ll sum it up by saying that many players have on respect for other users, and it has nothing to do with “casuals”, “elitists”, RPers, or whatever.

As for dictating how some enjoy the game (the way you elaborated in your last post), let’s just say that the so called “elitists” don’t let others affect their environment. They screen players, however tedious it might become at times.

As a side note I’d like to share my appreciation for the change in your posts. You seem to be both serious and making sense at the same time. No judging, no trolling, no flaming. I like that. Representing the “casuals” this way will surely have a greater chance of getting the change you’re asking for. It all starts with a good attitude, and yours seems to be great now. I hope I’m not wrong…

I’m not sure if I believe my eyes because it’d seem that we agree on many more things than I originally thought possible. When you said you’re not really sure what I’m going on at you there, it was a misunderstanding. I thought you’re suggesting the opposite of what you did, that’s all.

I’m just not sure we’re on the same page on some parts of your philosophy, so please elaborate on the following quotes:

• “…taking a hands off approach to screening people that join their teams…”

• “Why do people allow OTHERS to dictate to them what they should enjoy?” and “Why do people allow OTHERS to dictate to them what they should enjoy?”. No one is forced to adhere to any meta or join any team that adheres to this (behavioral) code or another. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.

As for this:

• “Why would anyone leave it up to a clueless casual to decide if they are going to met the requirement for a speed run and ruin that enjoyment?”

Ask Anet. They’re responsible for designing the LFG tool this way…

This isn’t what the so called “elitists” argued against. In my arguments you could find the reasons some “casuals” try to enter the so called “elitists” parties undetected, disrespecting the team members’ right to play with like minded players. One of the main aspects of the debate was what’s defined as “negatively affect that environment”. The main complaint you hear from “casuals”, that has nothing to do with jerks, is that they find the standards (tactics included, sometimes) undesirable.

When someone joins a team he doesn’t fit into, it should be no surprise to him if he got kicked. Respect the team and you’ll be respected when there are no jerks around. If a team doesn’t fit you, your only choice is to adapt, leave, or get kicked. Some “casuals” find this kicking (not at the last boss, but usually before the dungeon starts) offensive, but that action alone isn’t inappropriate.

You might disagree due to value differences alone, but that doesn’t make you right. Not when it’s someone else’ team. Their team, their rules, and it’s appropriate for them to behave this way, as long as they don’t humiliate the kicked player (the kicking alone is appropriate, mind you).

I’d like to see where a (real) so called “elitist” actually complained (seriously) about being kicked from a party because he didn’t pass the gear/spec/etc checks. Sometimes they jest, like TheMaskedParadigm with his recent thread about the spider in AC.

By the way, I’ve been reading the entire thread before replying. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to reply at all. Taking part of this thread is the first action I’ve been taking on these boards, mind you.

Edit:

I went over the second page, like you suggested. What I saw was, first of all, very different than what most complaints are about. Most complaints have to do with LFG sign standards that are being enforced by the group. This complaint was different and has absolutely nothing to do with the so called “elitists”.

The case you referred to was of someone who didn’t fit his team and has chosen not to adapt in a way that was acceptable by everyone. It can happen for various reasons:

• RP party looking for RP mid dungeon (or something along those lines)

• Players who’re using unusual tactics, which they have every right to.

What if a team decided not to skip and then they kicked someone who did? The so called “elitists” skip all the time, so the kickers aren’t so called “elitists”.

If a player joined a team, and didn’t make sure (before entering) he fits, it’s all his fault. Period. Most complains have to do with gear/build checks or with common tactics that are being widely accepted and used, especially by well performing teams. Some people find those common tactics undesirable and ask for a change so they could have a better chance to find well performing teams.

Most people care because this is a topic that has to do with a lot of people. The bottom line is that the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones asking for a change. In addition, most complaint threads are started by hurt “casuals” who found the reality undesirable.

As for the video you mentioned, you’re totally confusing jerks with the so called “elitists”. Jerks exist everywhere and are part of each community. Period.

You seem to show a lot more care than he does, and you’re very wrong to think the OP’s care carries any weight here. His post was just a platform to get this debate going, and I doubt he meant otherwise by starting this thread.

As for me, I just wanted this whole thing done once and for all. Not many people have the ability to take part of a debate the way I did. Some could easily surpass me, some can’t. Speaking of care, aren’t you the one who started an entire thread about it at the general discussion? You don’t seem to be the right person to question my care when you act this way.

I never said your teams are ruined. When you merely suggest what you think is the source you are, by definition, trying to find who to blame. Weren’t you the one who said this isn’t helping and is only toxic?

A solution is a change in the status quo. You asked, some time ago, what can you do. I replied. You can ask the so called “elitists” politely to go out of their way to help. You can also ask them where to get info and do some homework (vids, forum, etc.). No one is obliged to do any of this, but then again the so called “elitists” aren’t obliged to teach either…

You want your teams that way, others want their teams otherwise. To each his own. You respect some values, they respect others. This is the way it was and there’s nothing wrong with it, even if you think there is (due to value differences alone).

Start being realistic. Nobody cares what you think is justified, what you think the reasons are, or what you think about the arguments. Facts keep standing and will keep standing there. This reality won’t change just because you think this way or another.

Obtena.7952:

Darius.4710:

You’ve got to be kidding me.

Nope, not kidding. Cookie’s got it figured out, some others too. I’m not getting drawn into some debate about how it’s someone’s fault. Both sides have things to do if situation is to improve.

You can claim all the forum PWNage you want. Just another reason people will add to the elitist hate list. Maybe make a bowbear ranger fail vid.

No. You can’t find a solution if you don’t know what the problem is. You said the problem is something which was totally wrong. The truth was that the problem was totally different. Right now one side has what the other side wants. The latter is trying to get the former to help him in legitimate and (very often) illegitimate ways.

Would you be so kind as to let us know why the so called “elitists” must improve when the “casuals” are asking for a change in the status quo?

Who cares when “casuals” hate if they want the so called “elitists” to help them? Not all " casuals", of course, but quite a few do.

Trying to deny the fact that some hurt “casuals” are trying to find legitimacy on these boards is nothing short than ignorance. So, yes, if their posts are destroyed when they’re acting inappropriately it matters to them.

Who cares if you can’t tell the difference between a jerk, who’s just mocking the “casuals” for fun, and a so called “elitist”? Who cares if you can’t see the fact that jerks exist on both camps and other camps as well?

dlonie.6547:

Just FYI guys, you’re letting the terrorists win.

Then you don’t understand their side very well. Sure, some of them are just trolls who like nothing more than stirring the pot, but not all of them are (though some do it unknowingly). One thing you should know about them, is that quite a few of them care for what’s being told about them in such debates.

Take a moment and try to get into a hurt “casual” (the way Obtena called them) shoes. He got hurt, probably not for the first time. He’s helpless, because he’s got no way to change this undesirable reality he’s facing. So how are quite a few of them trying to deal with it? Searching legitimacy on the forum (this way or another).

So, basically, the forum is the only place they feel like they have a chance to get back at the so called “elitists” or at least find legitimacy. Now, this hurt “casual”, who’s also probably angry every time someone proves him wrong (even when done very very politely), finds out that he’s being destroyed on the forum! This is it. There’s no place to go. He’ll have to cope with this reality in one way or another. This is the last thing he wanted, trust me.

This thread destroyed (like a post is being destroyed on a forum) the ones blaming the so called elitists and put them to shame. They were proved to be acting in an illegitimate manner and they lost the fight (which also means no change in the status quo). Now there are also links to carry on to the next thread, which means they might not even have any hope down the road.

What else did this thread do? This thread identified the real problem, once and for all, but also pointed toward a solution (that already existed, even though they don’t like it). The “casuals” would either have to do their homework, get along without help (might include homework), or hope for the so called “elitists” to go out of their way…

The so called “elitists” won’t go out of their way unless said “casual” changed his attitude, which he’d have to if he wants help. So he wasn’t only beaten, but also forced to suck it up and change his attitude. This is the last thing he wanted…