Guild Wars 2

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

Very interesting read. It seems that the problem with “zerker elitists” vs. “PHIW casuals” is more of a social problem then a game mechanics problem. Its true that the “zerker elitists” have spent lots of time, research, trial and error in perfecting the highest DPS possible builds. Also, the PHIW group is not as concerned with dealing the maximum amount of damage possible, or clearing dungeons in near record times, but enjoying the game. Neither of these is wrong. However the disparity occures when the PHIWs feel that they deserve to recieve the benefits of those who did the hard work. I myself would fall in the catagory of PHIW. However, I don’t feel that I should be able to join a specific LFG if I don’t meet the requirements. If I was to join a “Zerk, 80s, EXP only group” while wearing my full valk armor, with a Phalanx Strength build, I would expect to get kicked. Likewise, if I’m running a “No skip, any welcome” LFG, and had a party member trying to skip mobs, bosses, and do a speed clear run, I reserve the right to kick him.

Also it’s been said several times, in several ways, that PHIWs are lazy, unwilling/unable to learn the mechanics, and feel entitled. (Granted this may have been sarcasm or in jest) Again, I would consider myself PHIW, but am in no way entitled to anything, am not lazy, in game :P, by any means, and feel I have a good grasp on the mechanics of most of the dungeon bosses, with the expeception of Arah (I hate that dungeon). I simply don’t care to run a meta build, do speed clears, or have the most optimal build ever. Why? Because those things don’t matter to me. I log on, chat with my guildies, go kill things, and have fun. Does it take me a bit longer to kill things? Sure. But I still have fun. If you want a meta, speed clear, most optimal build possible. Sweet! More power to you! Go for it! I’m not going to stand in your way.

There are just as many zerker casuals and phiw hardcores. You are all perpetuating a false dichotomy. Many, many casuals love being efficient and playing good dps builds. Many, many hardcore players who log on 12 hours a day love playing cleric healers.

The labels aren’t helpful … they are originally intended to be insulting. Even PHIW doesn’t make much sense … who doesn’t do that?

Tree.3916:

There are just as many zerker casuals and phiw hardcores. You are all perpetuating a false dichotomy. Many, many casuals love being efficient and playing good dps builds. Many, many hardcore players who log on 12 hours a day love playing cleric healers.

Yes, one might even think that the guides you and others have written are targeted at people that don’t have the time or interest to spend hours and hours theorycrafting and developing rotations, but still want the most efficient build.. But that might be a bit of a stretch.

I really did my best to refrain from posting, but I feel that now is the right time to start doing so, though I believe I’ll only take part of this thread and that’s it.

Some of the posters have been quite serious and constructive, while some haven’t. Some of those who haven’t been constructive have forgotten what a discussion is. To take part of a discussion you must provide arguments. A real argument is supported by evidence and/or sound logic. Without this support, it wouldn’t be an argument and therefore it holds no weight. None at all. I’ll start providing mine right away.

Argument No.1

Seeing as

A: It’s highly common for people to want the same reward, as those who have put forth the effort, without having to put forth the effort themselves. This is a well known fact that I need not prove here.

B: Some people lack the ability, or are unwilling, to adapt when they faced with a reality that is undesirable for them.

You get: Some people are trying to change this reality. In the case at hand those people do one, or more, of the following options:

1. Complain. For example, complain that they’re excluded from teams who have high (performance) standards.

2. Sabotage. For example, grief path sellers by joining their party and kick them, lying about them on the forums, etc.

3. Lie. For example, trying to join a party that’s clearly not interested in you, or lie to guild mates to avoid confronting them directly. In the latter case I refer to people who, for example, avoid a guild member who doesn’t perform well by using various excuses, while doing the opposite to play with a guild mate who does.

I’ll conclude the first argument by saying that for the reasons found in A and B, combined with actions Number 1, 2 and 3, some of the players who don’t perform well are the ones who contributed to the situation at hand, not the so called “elitists”.

How many times have you seen players who perform well complaining that they didn’t get into a casual “all welcome” team? Never, or almost never. How many times have you see the opposite? Very often. Very often indeed.

How many times have you seen well performing players trying to sabotage the “all welcome” parties? Not often if not very rarely. How many times have you seen the opposite? Very often. Very often indeed.

How many times have you seen a well performing player trying to join a group of, say, RPers who aren’t interested in his presence? Not often if not very rarely (not for griefing). How many times have you seen players who don’t perform very well trying to get into well performing teams undetected? Very often. Very often indeed.

Arguments No. 2

Seeing as:

A. It’s only natural for players to look for other, like minded, players.

B. It’s only natural for players to avoid the company of players who aren’t like minded.

C. There are many complaints of players, who don’t fit said performance standards, that they’re being avoided by the ones who fit those standards. The opposite complains don’t exist, or almost don’t exist.

Concluding argument number 2: For reasons A, B, and C, you see that most of the players who aren’t looking for like minded players, as people would naturally do, are the ones who don’t perform well. This is another proof that they contributed to this conflict by trying to get well performing players to cooperate with them (quite often against their will).

If they really have fun playing the way they want, why are they trying to force themselves on others who’re trying to avoid them? It’d seem that there are quite a few who value performance, even if they refuse to openly admit it. Please note that playing meta doesn’t have to equate to not having fun for the ones who practice it regularly.

[To be continued…]

Argument No. 3

Seeing as:

A. Performance oriented segregation pre-dated video games.

B. Performance oriented segregation existed during UO, even pre-Tram (Ultima Online before Trammel existed).

C. Performance oriented segregation existed even in the most hardcore RP guild, even in servers/shards where there was no performance oriented guild/team (on the server).

D. Performance oriented segregation existed in the least performance oriented (Play How I Want) guilds possible, even when there was no performance oriented guild/team on the server/shard.

E. Players will adopt (behavioral) patterns they like and will do their very best to reject the ones they don’t. As best as they possibly can.

Concluding argument number 3: For reasons A-E, the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones to blame. Human nature is, and so are some of the players who don’t perform as well, not the so called “elitists”. You could add that some players’ denial when faced with a reality, that isn’t desirable for them, is also to blame, but that’d be a part of human nature.

You might think that guilds who openly reject performance as an important value actually act this way. When faced with a reward they find desirable, but unattainable, they start changing, even if not openly. Many times they don’t openly do so. They use various excuses, and may even be in denial, but they’re avoiding the ones who don’t perform well while actively seeking the ones who do. Not doing so openly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it.

Final verdict: Unless someone actually refutes those arguments by providing well made arguments (real arguments), the so called “elitists” aren’t to blame. Some of the opposite players are to blame, as well as human nature.

Obtena.7952:

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

To be honest the situation was ALOT better when there was no ingame LFG.

We post in LFG website what we want and 99% of the time we get players who read and comply with the description and results in no kicking/ingame flaming (even non “elitist” posts). This is probably because it doesn’t take only one click to join there so you know exactly what you’re joining.

If people still used those websites now I’d prefer posting there instead.

I think that depends on what side of the fence you are on. Prior to LFG, there was zero way to set an expectation for who you wanted to team with, so even more unreasonable to be giving people a difficult time because they didn’t ‘play right’. At least now, people making teams can give some context to the kind of team they are making. While I can see why people are upset their LFG messages are ignored, consider this:

The vast majority of people don’t even read the forums and there is nothing in-game that tells people how to interpret player-created teaming criteria (Yes, I know some people just blatantly ignore those). How does a player even begin to familiarize themselves with what is required of a team advertising a speed run? Even if it occurs to someone to go to the forum … they come here and see what? Froth, toxic and QQ … no one is going to waste time here. Then people get all upset when they get cleric guy joining on a speed run team? What else do you expect? There is no manual for “How to play for speedrun dungeons” ingame.

There is no real point here to revisit history. It’s the situation we have now. What do people do to change that? Tolerance, education.

Obtena.7952:

I think that depends on what side of the fence you are on. Prior to LFG, there was zero way to set an expectation for who you wanted to team with, so even more unreasonable to be giving people a difficult time because they didn’t ‘play right’.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that the vast majority of people don’t even read the forums. How does a player even begin to familiarize themselves with what is required of a team advertising a speed run? It’s not even reasonable. There isn’t anything in the game that prepares players for player-created requirements like that. Then people get all upset when they get cleric guy joining on a speed run team? What else do you expect?

It’s not about “playing right”. It’s about standards that anyone has the right to set. Some players set a Role Playing standard to join their party. Do you see anyone complaining? Performance is desired by many, while some just won’t openly admit it.

Your reasons for lack of preparation are the ones which are unreasonable. If someone doesn’t understand what the LFG sign means, he could whisper the player and ask? He could also join and immediately say that he has no idea what the LFG sign meant and ask for an explanation. How many times have you seen players doing that, though?

I’ll repeat what I said to begin with: Your explanation is unreasonable, not the standards you claim that are unreasonable. Where there’s a will there’s a way…

Edit:

There’s a perfectly good reason to revisit history: To learn the reason it all happened to begin with. The blame, as proved by my arguments, lies with some of the players who don’t perform well. It also lies with human nature. Trying to change human nature, right now, is pointless. Trying to tell the ones who can’t, or won’t, adapt that they should start doing so now, will also get you nowhere.

So what can you do? You could kindly ask some of the so called “elitists” to be nice and help others who have a hard time. Keep in mind that they are not, in any way, obliged to do so, nor are they acting inappropriately if they refuse (to help).

Darius.4710:

Obtena.7952:

I think that depends on what side of the fence you are on. Prior to LFG, there was zero way to set an expectation for who you wanted to team with, so even more unreasonable to be giving people a difficult time because they didn’t ‘play right’.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that the vast majority of people don’t even read the forums. How does a player even begin to familiarize themselves with what is required of a team advertising a speed run? It’s not even reasonable. There isn’t anything in the game that prepares players for player-created requirements like that. Then people get all upset when they get cleric guy joining on a speed run team? What else do you expect?

It’s not about “playing right”. It’s about standards that anyone has the right to set. Some players set a Role Playing standard to join their party. Do you see anyone complaining?

I think that if RP was a prevalent standard and people were joining ignoring that, yes, people would complain alot. The fact is that everyone can have values offended by others.

Darius.4710:

Your reasons for lack of preparation are the ones which are unreasonable. If someone doesn’t understand what the LFG sign means, he could whisper the player and ask? He could also join and immediately say that he has no idea what the LFG sign meant and ask for an explanation. How many times have you seen players doing that, though?

I’ll repeat what I said to begin with: Your explanation is unreasonable, not the standards you say are unreasonable. Where there’s a will there’s a way…

It’s not unreasonable at all because those aren’t requirements to play the game. They are made by players. If I they aren’t necessary to complete the content successfully, why would anyone even think to ask if it’s OK to join a PUG? Again, nothing ingame prepares anyone for how players segregate themselves for speed runs in dungeons. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Some of the so-called Elitists are actively helping people already.
There’s this guild that accepts any and all newbies or not so newbies that are willing to try and learn, and their only requirement is having a positive attitude, as far as I know. They have been doing this for about half a year, perhaps even longer.

There also exist many sites that show players what dungeons and fractals are like and how to beat them.
The least a new player can do is watch a video of a group of people completing the dungeon they’re planning to run before joining a party. It’s common sense.

Lifestealer.4910:

When a person comes to a “all zerk, be experienced” or “want X class for X content” party and the person who clearly don’t fit the bill and didn’t bother reading the lfg and joins gets kicked, why is it that the elitest players gets the hate?..

If people want to do things casually they can, just open up lfg and put your descriptions something like “no trash skips, play casually” or “all cleric gear party” there. I really doubt there would be zerker elitest players joining that party, and if they do, you can do same thing and kick them!.. win win situation

You jump from one extreme to the other.

The case you make for elitists is an LFG post which specifically states “all zerk, be experienced” or “want X class for X content”. Many elitists will join any group regardless of the posting and expect the group to conform to their niche needs, remaining completely unflexible when individuals who joined the group can’t meet the requirements (think about the people who can’t skip the gravelings in AC or complete the runs in TA). Often it’s easy to simply kill the mobs than wait five minute for party members to either succeed eventually or quit.

Then the behaviour you expect from anyone who doesn’t fit that narrow description is “no trash skips, play casually” or “all cleric gear party”. Putting aside the unnecessary implication that someone who doesn’t want to a join an all zerk, experienced or class specific group would likely be interested in an all cleric gear party, I think you’ve missed the point.

What about all the people in the middle? Who just post “LFG Path 1”?

Actually look at the word:

elitist
noun
a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
adjective
favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.

elite
noun
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

A lot of players would disagree that berserker parties are elite. A lot of players would resent the idea that the dungeon community should be ruled or dominated by players who consider themselves to be elite.

Now when it comes to deciding who you want to play with, that’s everyone’s individual right. But dictating to others that they have to post a certain way otherwise they are default expected to play the way the “elite” play, I simply disagree with that. There are also ugly consequences for exlcuding people based on class alone and while it is anyone’s right to choose who to play with, it’s incredibly damaging and unhealthy for the community when entire classes become popularly blacklisted from groups, usually because of ignorance. This is especially unnecessary when the efficiency difference of using an objectively inferior class over an optimal one is so small that the time lost is negligible.

Not only does the community remain close minded when it comes to accepting new and potentially superior ways to play the game (how long ago were staff eles considered bad, or when ranger DPS was completely laughed at).

Post your “lfg, zerker only” or “no ranger” groups. That’s your choice. The rest of the community is allowed to take issue with that kind of attitude and its consequences shaping the game we all play.

That goes without saying … but if a player knows the dungeon in and out, and joins a speedrun in clerics (because nothing ingame tells them) … no speed run team is still going to take them right? Let’s acknowledge that dungeon knowledge is not the same as optimized builds. No one gets kicked or accepted because they know every inch of a dungeon.

I’m not arguing that ‘elistists’ aren’t helpful. In fact, more helpful that people that aren’t. The issue here isn’t elistists not providing information, etc… the issue really comes down to this (As Darius mentioned):

1. If you CAN influence someone to run full zerk and learn, it’s not going to happen in a toxic place where people make froth videos of bowbear rangers, etc… GL with that.
2. If you CAN’T influence someone to set aside their values to run specific builds (or allow non-DPS to join your speed run team), acknowledge a level of intolerance that lead to actions like kicking and understand the effect that has on people.

RP and performance can both be set as barriers. Few players, who’re not interested in griefing, value RP. Many more value performance, even if they won’t openly admit it.

Both standards which can be set as barriers, and none of them prevent players from playing the game. They prevent players from playing in specific parties when there are plenty of parties to go round. You could even start one yourself. It might not perform as well as the best performing parties. but you’re responsible for your choices. You’ve no choice but to accept this fact.

Why would anyone ask if it’s ok to join a PUG? Maybe because different PUGs could be just that. Different. As simple as it sounds. You may want a PUG to be an All Welcome group, but you can’t get everyone to follow suit. Why would anyone abide to your values? Just because you deem it appropriate?

If there’s a LFG sign, and you’ve no idea what it means, then it’s perfectly appropriate to ask (whisper) or join and immediately say you’ve no idea.

Honestly, Obtena, do you really take a moment to think of what you’re doing? Suggesting it’s inappropriate to choose who a said player will play with, or not (PUG or not, who cares)? Suggesting that your idea of a PUG should be accepted by others for no reason other than your own desire? Suggesting that players go out of their way to help others who won’t even ask what’s in a LFG sign they don’t understand?

Please, take a moment and think. If change is what you’re really after, you won’t be getting it this way. You must realize that your values are just that, and no more. No one has to abide nor is anyone acting inappropriately just because you don’t both share the same values. You’re also doing a major disservice when trying to move the blame away from the “casuals” (as you call them) when they’re to blame. For example, If they didn’t know, didn’t ask (so difficult?), and you’re trying to make them look innocent, then you’re not even close to getting any change.

You must start by addressing the real problem. As long as you unjustly avoid it, your chances of changing anything drop significantly. You’re just way too subjective and your explanations (not even arguments) hold no water…

VideoGamermike.5813:

<snip>

edit: And no, the pug environment is poisenous, full of people whom skip and stack at ever interval even when the game whom made the party asked not to(first hand experience,) and where 4/5 groups are all “lvl 80, exp, zerk only.” Need I even mention the point I was told “F**** KILL YOURSELF” for going against the instruction guides? Sound healthy to you?

From reading your defensive posts on this subforum, I can safely say that you prove my point in my previous post regarding the minority complaining about this made-up problem in the pugging environment. You seem on edge, get help or take a break from the game. Stop lashing out at people who want nothing to do with you.

@shiren

Find a guild of like minded players, open a party saying “all welcome”. Those won’t take that long to fill, even if your class is resented by performance oriented parties. That said, your post holds no water.

Obtena.7952:

That goes without saying …

snip

Your post would actually hold water if it was so difficult to find a party when saying “all welcome” or by joining a guild of like minded people. Casual guilds aren’t difficult to find nor are they difficult to get into. This is the bottom line, not points number 1 and 2 in your post. Those points would hold water if it made your grouping impossible, yet it just isn’t true. Some of the best performing players in the game help lots of players. Heck, many players made their own way with crappy gear, sub-optimal builds, no videos, etc. They were willing to put forth the effort and joined forces with like minded individuals.

Defending players who won’t be willing to put forth the effort, and blaming the ones who don’t go out of their way to help, isn’t going to get the change you’re hoping for. It anything, it’ll get the opposite result.

Obtena.7952:

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

Because you said so?

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

Because you said so?

No, because it happened. I’m sure you can even recall discussions you participated in on the Guardian Forums about these very topics prior to when LFG was introduced ingame.

Darius.4710:

Honestly, Obtena, do you really take a moment to think of what you’re doing? Suggesting it’s inappropriate to choose who a said player will play with, or not (PUG or not, who cares)? Suggesting that your idea of a PUG should be accepted by others for no reason other than your own desire? Suggesting that players go out of their way to help others who won’t even ask what’s in a LFG sign they don’t understand?

That’s what you think I’m suggesting? Let me clear something up here. I’m all for choosing who you want to play with. I’m all for people playing how they want (because if they aren’t, their head isn’t screwed on right). I’m all for tolerance and education. What does that mean?

Play with who you want to, but be responsible and smart about it. Setting a LFG message, expecting people to abide and washing your hands of the responsibilities of ensuring your in a team you want makes no sense. That LFG message doesn’t dissolve anyone of the need for the same checks that were done BEFORE LFG was implemented. I think it’s MORE necessary now than ever because yes, I doubt many people will ask about the LFG message if they don’t understand, care or know. Even if they ask, what does someone tell them? Come to this subforum for information? It’s and interesting stance to blame someone for not asking, but if there isn’t any place to direct them to, it’s meaningless.

I don’t think the message has changed, just because there is a new way to make a team: If there is a requirement to play with certain people, it’s up to the person/people with those requirements to find them.

It also means that if players have special requirements to higher performing teams, they need to educate people on what that means and how to do it. The toxic approach taken in the Guardian forums to do that over a year ago was a failure. Renewed efforts are better; we have DPS guides now in may profession forums, they are extremely useful.

Finally, it also means I think that if a player who likes to dictate or question how others should play gets himself ridiculed or kicked from a team because he doesn’t meet the team requirements, he should just suck it up.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

Because you said so?

No, because it happened. I’m sure you can even recall discussions you participated in on the Guardian Forums about these very topics prior to when LFG was introduced ingame.

No I honestly can’t.

I don’t recall ever giving people kitten for playing how they want in their own groups

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

ODB.6891:

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

Because you said so?

No, because it happened. I’m sure you can even recall discussions you participated in on the Guardian Forums about these very topics prior to when LFG was introduced ingame.

No I honestly can’t.

I don’t recall ever giving people kitten for playing how they want in their own groups

I guess my statement wasn’t clear to you. People were treated poorly for not playing a specific way before LFG. Forums was one place it was happening. It was happening ingame prior to LFG. I was under the impression you were aware of these activities, having seen you participate in the Guardian forums in these discussions.

Excuse me sir, i would like some Obtena on my hot chips, because he is being more than a little salty.

Obtena.7952:

Darius.4710:

Honestly, Obtena, do you really take a moment to think of what you’re doing? Suggesting it’s inappropriate to choose who a said player will play with, or not (PUG or not, who cares)? Suggesting that your idea of a PUG should be accepted by others for no reason other than your own desire? Suggesting that players go out of their way to help others who won’t even ask what’s in a LFG sign they don’t understand?

That’s what you think I’m suggesting? Let me clear something up here. I’m all for choosing who you want to play with. I’m all for people playing how they want (because if they aren’t, their head isn’t screwed on right). I’m all for tolerance and education. What does that mean?

Play with who you want to, but be responsible and smart about it. Setting a LFG message, expecting people to abide and washing your hands of the responsibilities of ensuring your in a team you want makes no sense. That LFG message doesn’t dissolve anyone of the need for the same checks that were done BEFORE LFG was implemented. I think it’s MORE necessary now than ever because yes, I doubt many people will ask about the LFG message if they don’t understand, care or know. Even if they ask, what does someone tell them? Come to this subforum for information? It’s and interesting stance to blame someone for not asking, but if there isn’t any place to direct them to, it’s meaningless.

I don’t think the message has changed, just because there is a new way to make a team: If there is a requirement to play with certain people, it’s up to the person/people with those requirements to find them.

It also means that if players have special requirements to higher performing teams, they need to educate people on what that means and how to do it. The toxic approach taken in the Guardian forums to do that over a year ago was a failure. Renewed efforts are better; we have DPS guides now in may profession forums, they are extremely useful.

I find it sad that you feel the zerker community is the problem. When in most instances we stick to our own. Create our own groups and seldom if ever join groups that we don’t meet the requirements for.

It is as if you expect the LFG tool to be there for everyone in the game but us. Because we put “Unreasonable restrictions”, when we use it to find four like minded people to play with.

Casual players don’t need a “White Knight” they can complete the same content we can by joining their own groups.

Obtena.7952:

I was under the impression you were aware of these activities, having seen you participate in the Guardian forums in these discussions.

I could be grossly mistaken, but I’m under the impression that the only people who do this in current day are non-factor/tryhard players, not the bigger figures in the community, unlike in the past.

I could be wrong again, but I imagine the people arguing with you here in this thread aren’t the ones going to random build threads and bashing them for kicks and giggles. The ones who are the most adamant about arguing with you in this thread are people who disagree with you based on their experiences with the LFG system, nothing else.

Talyn.3295:

I find it sad that you feel the zerker community is the problem.

I find it sad that from what I’ve said, this is what you think I feel.

Talyn.3295:

Casual players don’t need a “White Knight” they can complete the same content we can by joining their own groups.

I’m not suggesting they can’t or they don’t.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Obtena.7952:

I was under the impression you were aware of these activities, having seen you participate in the Guardian forums in these discussions.

I could be grossly mistaken, but I’m under the impression that the only people who do this in current day are non-factor/tryhard players, not the bigger figures in the community, unlike in the past.

I could be wrong again, but I imagine the people arguing with you here in this thread aren’t the ones going to random build threads and bashing them for kicks and giggles.

I wasn’t suggesting they currently are doing that. I was indicating that the poster should have been aware of negative player interactions, even prior to LFG tool introduction.

Obtena.7952:

I wasn’t suggesting they currently are doing that. I was indicating that the poster should have been aware of negative player interactions, even prior to LFG tool introduction.

Oh, that’s fair then.

Obtena.7952:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Obtena.7952:

I was under the impression you were aware of these activities, having seen you participate in the Guardian forums in these discussions.

I could be grossly mistaken, but I’m under the impression that the only people who do this in current day are non-factor/tryhard players, not the bigger figures in the community, unlike in the past.

I could be wrong again, but I imagine the people arguing with you here in this thread aren’t the ones going to random build threads and bashing them for kicks and giggles.

I wasn’t suggesting they currently are doing that. I was indicating that the poster should have been aware of negative player interactions, even prior to LFG tool introduction.

Firstly, it goes both ways. There were lots of people before the lfg who were casual players who were just as abusive towards others as there were evil elitists roaming around taking scalps. And secondly you cant claim to know who cast the first stone because you weren’t there for each and every individual’s situation. And thirdly, you’re trying to say that the problems now are caused by what happened in the past which you can’t really prove.

Obtena.7952:

Talyn.3295:

I find it sad that you feel the zerker community is the problem.

I find it sad that from what I’ve said, this is what you think I feel.

I read through this entire thread before I commented. Over several days, and This was what I took away from it. You might not have said those words in that order, but it was the feeling your post generated.

I guess we can both be sad together.

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Obtena.7952:

I was under the impression you were aware of these activities, having seen you participate in the Guardian forums in these discussions.

I could be grossly mistaken, but I’m under the impression that the only people who do this in current day are non-factor/tryhard players, not the bigger figures in the community, unlike in the past.

I could be wrong again, but I imagine the people arguing with you here in this thread aren’t the ones going to random build threads and bashing them for kicks and giggles.

I wasn’t suggesting they currently are doing that. I was indicating that the poster should have been aware of negative player interactions, even prior to LFG tool introduction.

Firstly, it goes both ways. There were lots of people before the lfg who were casual players who were just as abusive towards others as there were evil elitists roaming around taking scalps. And secondly you cant claim to know who cast the first stone because you weren’t there for each and every individual’s situation. And thirdly, you’re trying to say that the problems now are caused by what happened in the past which you can’t really prove.

He’s pointing out actions taken by the “elitist” (man I hate having to use that term) community that have led to negative relations between the two common parties. He’s also pointing out that it goes beyond ingame, and the forums have been a big factor as well, his example being when we used to all go and troll the life out of every non-meta build (I don’t think any of us have done that for many months, but it did happen). That’s an example of “elitists” not leaving PHIW players alone when they’re minding their own business.

Maybe I’m giving him benefit of the doubt but I don’t think he’s trying to argue that the ‘PHIW’ community is without blame, but rather he’s pointing out where ‘elitists’ have done wrong, as that’s the thread topic.

J Eberle.9312:

Firstly, it goes both ways. There were lots of people before the lfg who were casual players who were just as abusive towards others as there were evil elitists roaming around taking scalps. And secondly you cant claim to know who cast the first stone because you weren’t there for each and every individual’s situation. And thirdly, you’re trying to say that the problems now are caused by what happened in the past which you can’t really prove.

You’re still frothing over blaming someone. This doesn’t help. Everyone has been treated badly. I’m suggesting why elitists are ‘hated’, though I think it’s a terrible nomenclature to be using.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Firstly, it goes both ways. There were lots of people before the lfg who were casual players who were just as abusive towards others as there were evil elitists roaming around taking scalps. And secondly you cant claim to know who cast the first stone because you weren’t there for each and every individual’s situation. And thirdly, you’re trying to say that the problems now are caused by what happened in the past which you can’t really prove.

You’re still frothing over blaming someone. This doesn’t help.

It’s basically what you’re doing.

I can tell … you must be a latte kind of person … lots of froth.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yea this threads done

#SummonModBot

Pass the salt Minigrump XD

Obtena.7952:

Your not paying attention to the whole thread … if play how I tell you people didn’t start the practice of kicking people based on their build/gear, there wouldn’t be ANYONE kicking based on build/gear NOW.

Trying to place blame on a group for wanting to play with like-minded people is ridiculous, imo. Why would people WANT to join a group that didn’t fit their playstyle? Why would they expect positive results if they did?

EDIT: And disclaimer, I actually find the zerk/stack meta boring. But I don’t join one of those groups and then complain about it. Nor do I expect other groups to suddenly start stacking and running zerk gear.

It really comes down to expectations, and not trying to change other people’s.

Tom Yzf.5872:

The Pug environment is fine and healthy. The people who are complaining are well in the minority and are simply misdirecting their frustration or are just plain speaking out of their behind.

I was reading this thread feeling quite puzzled until this point. I haven’t pugged hundreds of runs or anything but my PUG experiences have been positive, or at least not toxic.

I find as long as everyone’s up front about what they want (and their knowledge/gear, lord knows I’m still a dungeon noob and I say that right off with a “If you don’t mind me not knowing the fights well”), it’s pretty smooth sailing.

Do some groups mind? Yes, but I’m not offended when I’m kicked because it’s a civil exchange. Again, managing expectations.

passes salt to swifty

Don’t use too much, might make it unenjoyable

Obtena.7952:

snip

No. Just… no.

Players of different mind sets tried discussing a related topic on these boards, and they also tried playing together in parties (or form them). The fact you label some behaviors as negative, due to values differences only, only proves your posts hold no water. When a build is discussed on these boards, which are free for everyone to participate, people will also find conflicting opinions and counter arguments. Some people say they’re being treated negatively if they’re presented with a conflicting opinion or a counter argument, even if they were presented politely!

What you’re doing is lumping up griefers (or jerks) with the so called “elitists”. Griefers are players who’re being rude when interacting with other players or posters. There are griefers on both sides! The fact some people are being rude about their mind set doesn’t make the mind set bad, it makes their behavior bad, plain and simple! If someone’s being a jerk, the problem is that he’s a jerk, it doesn’t mean his mind set is in the wrong.

Now, after we’ve established that you’ve made a mistake by blaming the so called “elitists” by lumping them together with the griefers (who exist on both sides!), we can get to the other problem. This problem is the reason that the blame lies with some of the “casuals” (as you call them), and not with the so called “elitists”. The reason is summed up very well in the three arguments I posted earlier and haven’t been refuted. They’re going nowhere until they’re properly addressed. Links: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273377 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273378

Your main issue has to do with the fact you think you have the moral high-ground. However, you don’t. It’s actually the other way around.

• You say their head isn’t screwed on right when you disagree due to value differences, and that only makes you judgemental instead making them wrong.

• You say it’s not ok to expect other players to respect your right to choose who to play with (“expecting people to abide and washing your hands of the responsibilities of ensuring your in a team you want makes no sense”), which means you’re trying to dictate which values should be respected and which ones shouldn’t. You’re being judgemental again and here you outright encourage players to disrespect others due to value differences.

• Trying to strip the responsibility from the “casuals” for the reason you mentioned (“I doubt many people will ask about the LFG message if they don’t understand, care or know”. ) doesn’t give them the moral high-ground. It actually makes them disrespective to other players’ values. So, basically, you’ve failed to bring any real arguments for them not asking what’s in the LFG sign before joining (when they don’t know), or right after. The explanation to those signs is short and there’s usually no reason not to answer politely.

• You’re suggesting that segregating based on performance related standard isn’t right (“if a player who likes to dictate or question how others should play gets himself ridiculed or kicked from a team because he doesn’t meet the team requirements, he should just suck it up.”), with the only reasoning being value differences again. This is the exact reasoning you’re trying to bash. Who’re you to say which values are worth respecting and which ones aren’t?

[To be continued…]

In addition:

Here are a few more examples of you just being judgemental just because other people’s values might differ from yours:

• “It also means that if players have special requirements to higher performing teams, they need to educate people on what that means and how to do it”. Who’re you to tell them that it’s not ok to just ask for people who’re ready without having to teach everything?

Teaching others is, by no means, an obligation, nor is it inappropriate not to teach others. If they can’t find people due to their requirements it’s their problem. It’s none of your business! Their requirements are their business, not yours! If other players adopted this behavior it’s because they preferred to, unless you prove (really prove) otherwise, which you haven’t so far.

• “The toxic approach taken in the Guardian forums to do that over a year ago was a failure”. There were griefers (or jerks), but they came from both sides! Both sides share the same responsibility! In addition, some of the “casuals” blamed some of the so called “elitists” for misbehaving just because they presented (politely) counter arguments which proved them wrong. They didn’t like being proved wrong and took it as a personal attack. So basically we have jerks on both sides, which makes no side any more wrong than the other, and we have conflicting values which some of the “casuals” claimed was disrespect.

Conclusion: After all that, you’re saying the so called elitists are (or were) treating negatively? For heaven’s sake, take a look at the mirror. You’re judging people left and right while encouraging disrespect toward values that differ from yours. You tried your best to prove the other side is in the wrong but proved the exact opposite. What a major disservice you’ve just done to the entire “casual” (the way you call them) community.

Do yourself, and the “casual” community, a favor. The next time you try to help them, bring an argument. A real argument. No, the fact you respect different values isn’t sound logic nor is it evidence to blame the so called “elitists” for the things you mentioned in your posts.

Obtena, take a few moments with yourself to re-evaluate your next step. If change is what you’re really after, then you’re doing the exact opposite. Judging the other side won’t get it to help you, especially when they’re no obliged to and it’s perfectly ok for them not to.

This is one of the only threads, regarding this issue, in which the “casuals” have been represented by someone serious. The other side is more than well represented right now by real arguments. Well made arguments. If you bring forth such arguments you’re going to help the “casuals”. So far you’ve only harmed their side. Right now you haven’t even a single argument (real argument) supporting the “casuals”.

Obtena.7952:

That’s what you think I’m suggesting? Let me clear something up here. I’m all for choosing who you want to play with. I’m all for people playing how they want (because if they aren’t, their head isn’t screwed on right). I’m all for tolerance and education. What does that mean?

Play with who you want to, but be responsible and smart about it. Setting a LFG message, expecting people to abide and washing your hands of the responsibilities of ensuring your in a team you want makes no sense. That LFG message doesn’t dissolve anyone of the need for the same checks that were done BEFORE LFG was implemented. I think it’s MORE necessary now than ever because yes, I doubt many people will ask about the LFG message if they don’t understand, care or know. Even if they ask, what does someone tell them? Come to this subforum for information? It’s and interesting stance to blame someone for not asking, but if there isn’t any place to direct them to, it’s meaningless.

I could be misinterpreting this. But what I took from this post is you think its ok to set requirements for a group. But if someone who doesnt meet those requirements joins your LFG you should take the time to explain exactly what your LFG message means before removing them. Or you are not allowed to kick them at all.

What twisted logic makes you think this? Im not going to sit there explaining to every person who cant use common sense why they are not welcome in the group. Especially when most people actually do understand the lfg messages but they simply refuse to abide by them and reply in party chat (sellers hell). I have no obligation to waste my time informing every player who wrongfully joins my group. That idea is ridiculous.

I see no reason, if you’re not short on time, to explain what the LFG sign means if someone joins and asks right away. If you’re short on time you could say that he might not fit and you’ll be looking for someone else. Neither option is wrong, but it’s so rare to find someone who’s asking (right away) after he joined. It’s even less common to have someone ask before joining.

Obtena.7952:

No. Casuals were being treated negatively LONG before there was a way to communicate requirements for teaming via LFG. Nice try.

I like how we’re all just pretending that gw2lfg.com (net? whatever) didn’t exist before the in-game LFG tool.

Or LA spam “LF2M COF ZERK ONLY PING GEAR SPEEDRUN GOGOGO”.

The introduction of the in-game LFG tool changed nothing. LFG adverts have always had strings attached.

dlonie.6547:

I like how we’re all just pretending that gw2lfg.com (net? whatever) didn’t exist before the in-game LFG tool.

Or LA spam “LF2M COF ZERK ONLY PING GEAR SPEEDRUN GOGOGO”.

The introduction of the in-game LFG tool changed nothing.

Shhhhhhh, you’re starting to make sense… Sorry, but I’ll have to put you down.
/chloroform
Yeah, there… now rest.
/gets a big sack

It’s all well summed up right here:

Darius.4710:

Argument No. 3

Seeing as:

A. Performance oriented segregation pre-dated video games.

B. Performance oriented segregation existed during UO, even pre-Tram (Ultima Online before Trammel existed).

C. Performance oriented segregation existed even in the most hardcore RP guild, even in servers/shards where there was no performance oriented guild/team (on the server).

D. Performance oriented segregation existed in the least performance oriented (Play How I Want) guilds possible, even when there was no performance oriented guild/team on the server/shard.

E. Players will adopt (behavioral) patterns they like and will do their very best to reject the ones they don’t. As best as they possibly can.

Concluding argument number 3: For reasons A-E, the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones to blame. Human nature is, and so are some of the players who don’t perform as well, not the so called “elitists”. You could add that some players’ denial when faced with a reality, that isn’t desirable for them, is also to blame, but that’d be a part of human nature.

You might think that guilds who openly reject performance as an important value actually act this way. When faced with a reward they find desirable, but unattainable, they start changing, even if not openly. Many times they don’t openly do so. They use various excuses, and may even be in denial, but they’re avoiding the ones who don’t perform well while actively seeking the ones who do. Not doing so openly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it.

Whoever claims the so called “elitists” are to blame, would first have to refute this argument, as well as the first two which weren’t quoted here. So far the “casuals” have no single argument to boot, which only makes things worse.

Wha….hey! What are you doing?!?

mmmph….phffffff….errrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhh

idea

xD xD xD xD xD

escapes

Nouuuughhhhh…. gh…. ghhhh…. The… emotes…. I can’t resist their power!

… I will get my revenge! Casuals! Gah! One day… one… day…

/crashes on the ground unconscious

spoj.9672:

People can magically tell who has done bad things just so they can go and invade their parties and throw abuse?

You should just accept that some people are intolerable scum that will go out of their way to impose their ideals on others. This happens from both sides obviously. But ive witnessed more white knight PHIW’s than abusive elitists. Never forget the times ive had my instance destroyed while selling because someone didnt like it.

I know how you feel I’m one of those “Elitist Jerks” that everybody seems to hate but all I ask or that any “Elitist” generally ask is to read their post If it says 80 Zerker only ping gear dont join that group not ping get kicked and go complain on the forums when it was the person who didnt read the posts fault Hell when i post for my groups I get about 8 or so people cussing me out almost every time I’ve pretty much stopped doing dungeons as a whole because of that I play how I want witch is full zerk gear people can go play Cleric Bearbows for all i care just not in my group

When was the last time you reported those players for harassment? You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask Anet if it’s ok to harass you, especially if it’s due to the use of your right to play with like minded people. You’ll be delighted by their response.

Keep in mind that this kind filtering takes place before the dungeon starts, not after, unlike kicking a player at the last boss.