Guild Wars 2

A role model right there ladies and gentlemen.

Darius.4710:

Let’s start with the 3 arguments you keep ignoring, as they’re going nowhere.

Because you’re only interested in debating who’s to blame … I don’t care about that. It’s not important. Blame who you want. It doesn’t change how people act ingame. It doesn’t change why people hate elitists. None of the ‘helpful debate’ you’re proposing I have with you accomplishes anything IMO. It’s just more toxicity. If avoiding that makes ME the troll, so be it.

If people can’t move on from pointing fingers, they deserve to get their LFG messages ignored, kicked from teams and all the other drama that comes with blaming people and acting poorly.

Obtena.7952:

toxicity.

Obtena why do you keep on arguing? Its pointless and getting more than a little old right now.

Obtena.7952:

Darius.4710:

Let’s start with the 3 arguments you keep ignoring, as they’re going nowhere.

Because you’re only interested in debating who’s to blame … I don’t care about that. It’s not important. Blame who you want. It doesn’t change how people act ingame. It doesn’t change why people hate elitists. None of the ‘helpful debate’ you’re proposing I have with you accomplishes anything IMO. It’s just more toxicity. If avoiding that makes ME the troll, so be it.

If people can’t move on from pointing fingers, they deserve to get their LFG messages ignored, kicked from teams and all the other drama that comes with blaming people and acting poorly.

And you don’t see how this post sums up the toxic attitude that the PHIW crowd exudes? “You deserve anything you get because you don’t agree with me that it’s your fault” is pretty much how this reads.

“Because you’re only interested in debating who’s to blame … I don’t care about that. It’s not important. Blame who you want.” – Obtena

If people could actually just read that, and understand that he’s just pointing out why ‘elitists’ are hated in relation to the OP, we could just let the thread sink. I get that people want to argue WHY his points exist, but they aren’t really important. Who started what is not something that he is trying to argue, nor what the OP enquired about.

I don’t think there’s any point to what Obtena is doing, but at the same time it’s kind of tedious seeing all these people just frothing at the sight of an “Obtena” post and not actually reading/trying to understand the content.

.

Simple rules to follow to avoid “elitist hating”
1- read the lfg
2- learn how to dodge, dodging mechanics are overpowered if used correctly
2.5- learning to dodge reduces the need to have over 3000 armor for your build
3- watch speed clear videos, if you learn even 50% of what they do, you won’t be complaining
4- don’t hate, appreciate
5- “most” (not all) of us don’t have 10 hours to play a game everyday, we want thing done quickly and efficiently, hence why we go zerk speed clear
6- once you become good and “elite” you won’t be upset anymore

Obtena.7952:

Darius.4710:

Let’s start with the 3 arguments you keep ignoring, as they’re going nowhere.

Because you’re only interested in debating who’s to blame … I don’t care about that. It’s not important. Blame who you want. It doesn’t change how people act ingame. It doesn’t change why people hate elitists. None of the ‘helpful debate’ you’re proposing I have with you accomplishes anything IMO. It’s just more toxicity. If avoiding that makes ME the troll, so be it.

If people can’t move on from pointing fingers, they deserve to get their LFG messages ignored, kicked from teams and all the other drama that comes with blaming people and acting poorly.

You’ve got to be kidding me. Not only have I answered your question about what can you do, you’ve also missed the point (on purpose or not). You can’t find a solution if you don’t know what the problem is. You claim the problem is one thing, and I proved the problem is something else.

You came to this thread, judged people left and right when their values differed from yours, trolled (you said that yourself), encouraged the “casuals” to disrespect others’ right to choose who to play with, and provided no argument. This, ladies and gentleman, is called toxic. Oh wait, you said I’m the one being toxic? You, of all people? After all you’ve done? Now, you’re still asking why there’s no change to the status quo, right? Please…

I’d also like to take a moment to thank the people who supported me in this thread. I appreciate it.

Obtena should rename himself as Obtuse.

Just FYI guys, you’re letting the terrorists win.

dlonie.6547:

Just FYI guys, you’re letting the terrorists win.

Then you don’t understand their side very well. Sure, some of them are just trolls who like nothing more than stirring the pot, but not all of them are (though some do it unknowingly). One thing you should know about them, is that quite a few of them care for what’s being told about them in such debates.

Take a moment and try to get into a hurt “casual” (the way Obtena called them) shoes. He got hurt, probably not for the first time. He’s helpless, because he’s got no way to change this undesirable reality he’s facing. So how are quite a few of them trying to deal with it? Searching legitimacy on the forum (this way or another).

So, basically, the forum is the only place they feel like they have a chance to get back at the so called “elitists” or at least find legitimacy. Now, this hurt “casual”, who’s also probably angry every time someone proves him wrong (even when done very very politely), finds out that he’s being destroyed on the forum! This is it. There’s no place to go. He’ll have to cope with this reality in one way or another. This is the last thing he wanted, trust me.

This thread destroyed (like a post is being destroyed on a forum) the ones blaming the so called elitists and put them to shame. They were proved to be acting in an illegitimate manner and they lost the fight (which also means no change in the status quo). Now there are also links to carry on to the next thread, which means they might not even have any hope down the road.

What else did this thread do? This thread identified the real problem, once and for all, but also pointed toward a solution (that already existed, even though they don’t like it). The “casuals” would either have to do their homework, get along without help (might include homework), or hope for the so called “elitists” to go out of their way…

The so called “elitists” won’t go out of their way unless said “casual” changed his attitude, which he’d have to if he wants help. So he wasn’t only beaten, but also forced to suck it up and change his attitude. This is the last thing he wanted…

Darius.4710:

You’ve got to be kidding me.

Nope, not kidding. Cookie’s got it figured out, some others too. I’m not getting drawn into some debate about how it’s someone’s fault. I’m pointing out what I think is why hate for elitists. Both sides have to make efforts to improve.

You can claim all the forum PWNage you want. Just another reason people will add to the elitist hate list. Might as well make some bowbear ranger fail vids while we are at it.

Obtena.7952:

Darius.4710:

You’ve got to be kidding me.

Nope, not kidding. Cookie’s got it figured out, some others too. I’m not getting drawn into some debate about how it’s someone’s fault. Both sides have things to do if situation is to improve.

You can claim all the forum PWNage you want. Just another reason people will add to the elitist hate list. Maybe make a bowbear ranger fail vid.

No. You can’t find a solution if you don’t know what the problem is. You said the problem is something which was totally wrong. The truth was that the problem was totally different. Right now one side has what the other side wants. The latter is trying to get the former to help him in legitimate and (very often) illegitimate ways.

Would you be so kind as to let us know why the so called “elitists” must improve when the “casuals” are asking for a change in the status quo?

Who cares when “casuals” hate if they want the so called “elitists” to help them? Not all " casuals", of course, but quite a few do.

Trying to deny the fact that some hurt “casuals” are trying to find legitimacy on these boards is nothing short than ignorance. So, yes, if their posts are destroyed when they’re acting inappropriately it matters to them.

Who cares if you can’t tell the difference between a jerk, who’s just mocking the “casuals” for fun, and a so called “elitist”? Who cares if you can’t see the fact that jerks exist on both camps and other camps as well?

Who’s looking for a solution? My teams aren’t ruined by any of this … I don’t make up extra requirements for teams I form. It’s the same for anyone else that doesn’t bring extra baggage and requirements to team building as well … Bring your build, let’s have fun … and we do. If ANY should be looking for a solution, it’s the people that QQ about casuals or whatever they are called.

I’m suggesting what I think is the sources of hate for elitists. Perhaps you don’t think that’s justified so you’re putting up these 3 arguments about who’s to blame. I don’t care. Justified or not, it happens and there is a reason for it and I’m pretty sure I’m not far off from what that reason is.

I never said your teams are ruined. When you merely suggest what you think is the source you are, by definition, trying to find who to blame. Weren’t you the one who said this isn’t helping and is only toxic?

A solution is a change in the status quo. You asked, some time ago, what can you do. I replied. You can ask the so called “elitists” politely to go out of their way to help. You can also ask them where to get info and do some homework (vids, forum, etc.). No one is obliged to do any of this, but then again the so called “elitists” aren’t obliged to teach either…

You want your teams that way, others want their teams otherwise. To each his own. You respect some values, they respect others. This is the way it was and there’s nothing wrong with it, even if you think there is (due to value differences alone).

Start being realistic. Nobody cares what you think is justified, what you think the reasons are, or what you think about the arguments. Facts keep standing and will keep standing there. This reality won’t change just because you think this way or another.

dlonie.6547:

Just FYI guys, you’re letting the terrorists win.

Screw it. Jihad against all non-elitists. I’m gonna shoe underwear bomb the next PHIW group I end up with.

Darius.4710:

Nobody cares what you think is justified, what you think the reasons are, or what you think about the arguments.

The OP cares, otherwise wouldn’t have made the thread. If YOU didn’t care so much, you wouldn’t reply either.

You seem to show a lot more care than he does, and you’re very wrong to think the OP’s care carries any weight here. His post was just a platform to get this debate going, and I doubt he meant otherwise by starting this thread.

As for me, I just wanted this whole thing done once and for all. Not many people have the ability to take part of a debate the way I did. Some could easily surpass me, some can’t. Speaking of care, aren’t you the one who started an entire thread about it at the general discussion? You don’t seem to be the right person to question my care when you act this way.

Yes, the OP’s care doesn’t carry any weight here … maybe he should have attached funny GIF or video of a staff-camp Guardian AMIRITE?

Regardless … if people didn’t care, this thread would have ended 5 pages ago.

Most people care because this is a topic that has to do with a lot of people. The bottom line is that the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones asking for a change. In addition, most complaint threads are started by hurt “casuals” who found the reality undesirable.

As for the video you mentioned, you’re totally confusing jerks with the so called “elitists”. Jerks exist everywhere and are part of each community. Period.

Darius.4710:

The bottom line is that the so called “elitists” aren’t the ones asking for a change.

It’s interesting you mention that because casual players aren’t the only one QQing about being kicked from teams where they don’t ‘play right’. It actually goes to why I think people hate elitists. Of course, it’s way back there, page 2 or something, so I’m sure you missed it because you keep wanting to play the blame game with me starting on page 5.

I’d like to see where a (real) so called “elitist” actually complained (seriously) about being kicked from a party because he didn’t pass the gear/spec/etc checks. Sometimes they jest, like TheMaskedParadigm with his recent thread about the spider in AC.

By the way, I’ve been reading the entire thread before replying. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to reply at all. Taking part of this thread is the first action I’ve been taking on these boards, mind you.

Edit:

I went over the second page, like you suggested. What I saw was, first of all, very different than what most complaints are about. Most complaints have to do with LFG sign standards that are being enforced by the group. This complaint was different and has absolutely nothing to do with the so called “elitists”.

The case you referred to was of someone who didn’t fit his team and has chosen not to adapt in a way that was acceptable by everyone. It can happen for various reasons:

• RP party looking for RP mid dungeon (or something along those lines)

• Players who’re using unusual tactics, which they have every right to.

What if a team decided not to skip and then they kicked someone who did? The so called “elitists” skip all the time, so the kickers aren’t so called “elitists”.

If a player joined a team, and didn’t make sure (before entering) he fits, it’s all his fault. Period. Most complains have to do with gear/build checks or with common tactics that are being widely accepted and used, especially by well performing teams. Some people find those common tactics undesirable and ask for a change so they could have a better chance to find well performing teams.

Darius.4710:

If a player joined a team, and didn’t make sure (before entering) he fits, it’s all his fault.

That’s one way to look at it. Of course, that’ appears to be the view of someone who puts their fate into someone else’s hands. If a person’s enjoyment hinges on someone else, it’s THEIR best interests to ensure they play with people that don’t negatively affect that enjoyment. That includes someone who has a specific requirement making a team. Never is anyone relieved of the responsibility to play in a way that they enjoy themselves. That’s why I advocate people play how they want. It’s why it makes SENSE to screen players in teams.

This isn’t what the so called “elitists” argued against. In my arguments you could find the reasons some “casuals” try to enter the so called “elitists” parties undetected, disrespecting the team members’ right to play with like minded players. One of the main aspects of the debate was what’s defined as “negatively affect that environment”. The main complaint you hear from “casuals”, that has nothing to do with jerks, is that they find the standards (tactics included, sometimes) undesirable.

When someone joins a team he doesn’t fit into, it should be no surprise to him if he got kicked. Respect the team and you’ll be respected when there are no jerks around. If a team doesn’t fit you, your only choice is to adapt, leave, or get kicked. Some “casuals” find this kicking (not at the last boss, but usually before the dungeon starts) offensive, but that action alone isn’t inappropriate.

You might disagree due to value differences alone, but that doesn’t make you right. Not when it’s someone else’ team. Their team, their rules, and it’s appropriate for them to behave this way, as long as they don’t humiliate the kicked player (the kicking alone is appropriate, mind you).

Darius.4710:

You might disagree due to value differences alone, but that doesn’t make you right. Not when it’s someone else’ team. Their team, their rules, and it’s appropriate for them to behave this way, as long as they don’t humiliate the kicked player (the kicking alone is appropriate, mind you).

I’m not really sure what you are going on at me here … I didn’t say it wasn’t appropriate to kick people from teams if they don’t make the cut.

I will make it simple for you; my philosophy to the game is to enjoy it. If a person is acting in a way that goes against enjoying it (like taking a hands off approach to screening people that join their teams), then there is something wrong with that person. Who doesn’t play to enjoy themselves? Why do people allow OTHERS to dictate to them what they should enjoy? Why would anyone leave it up to a clueless casual to decide if they are going to met the requirement for a speed run and ruin that enjoyment? Take control! Screen people. If you’re willing take the next step so your not just giving fish, you’re teach fishing.

I’m not sure if I believe my eyes because it’d seem that we agree on many more things than I originally thought possible. When you said you’re not really sure what I’m going on at you there, it was a misunderstanding. I thought you’re suggesting the opposite of what you did, that’s all.

I’m just not sure we’re on the same page on some parts of your philosophy, so please elaborate on the following quotes:

• “…taking a hands off approach to screening people that join their teams…”

• “Why do people allow OTHERS to dictate to them what they should enjoy?” and “Why do people allow OTHERS to dictate to them what they should enjoy?”. No one is forced to adhere to any meta or join any team that adheres to this (behavioral) code or another. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.

As for this:

• “Why would anyone leave it up to a clueless casual to decide if they are going to met the requirement for a speed run and ruin that enjoyment?”

Ask Anet. They’re responsible for designing the LFG tool this way…

When I mean hands off, I’m talking about setting a message in LFG and assuming that’s sufficient to get the people you want in team. It’s not, it won’t.

When I refer to people allowing others to dictate how they enjoy the game, I’m referring to the idea that some people making teams with requirements aren’t willing to educate … therefore, they are allowing clueless people to affect their enjoyment of the game. On this it’s clear you see differently, yet I can’t understand why. It’s not relevant who’s fault it is. What’s relevant is if people take control of their own game enjoyment. As someone who maximizes my enjoyment, I would go to great lengths to let them know why they aren’t welcome, hoping that’s more effective than LFG message.

I’m not sure how the LFG tool could possibly take control of players ability to filter teams to their own requirements. That being said (and perhaps I’m reading way too much into this) … perhaps the way LFG works is an indicator of Anet’s approach to the game. Less abstract … dungeons are designed to be done by anyone in any build. Why would LFG for dungeons not work with that philosophy in mind; pairing up randoms in whatever builds they have? Makes sense to me. What that means? People with additional requirements still need to be pro-active.

I don’t even come close to ideals expressed by many here but I would NEVER let someone join my team who would make it not enjoyable. Why would someone regulate LFG to do that for them when it’s clearly not up to that task?

This is no easy task for Anet to pull. Even if they’d want to allow more screening within the LFG tool they’d have to:

• Openly admit they submit to what some of their customers define as Elitism.

• Spend more resources on doing that, which is not so simple. Screening both builds and gear won’t be that easy to pull.

Keep in mind that Anet fully understands that the so called “elitists” can overcome the screening issue by kicking.

The hands off approach won’t survive the game’s current iteration because it’s too easy to disrespect other players. I’ll spare you the entire MMO history lesson, but I’ll sum it up by saying that many players have on respect for other users, and it has nothing to do with “casuals”, “elitists”, RPers, or whatever.

As for dictating how some enjoy the game (the way you elaborated in your last post), let’s just say that the so called “elitists” don’t let others affect their environment. They screen players, however tedious it might become at times.

As a side note I’d like to share my appreciation for the change in your posts. You seem to be both serious and making sense at the same time. No judging, no trolling, no flaming. I like that. Representing the “casuals” this way will surely have a greater chance of getting the change you’re asking for. It all starts with a good attitude, and yours seems to be great now. I hope I’m not wrong…

Darius.4710:

As for the video you mentioned, you’re totally confusing jerks with the so called “elitists”. Jerks exist everywhere and are part of each community. Period.

Maybe he gets it this way.
As an example: I’m the jerk and i like sleeping in my [cave] coffin ‘til it’s time for me to visit and haunt the forum. An example of an elitist could be spoj.
It’s not that hard to figure out. As hard as figuring out the difference between the commonly used expressions “casual” and PHIW, which is a subgroup of the former.
… Why am I still posting in this thread…. I must be really bored.

I think that’s part of what’s causing all this conflict. The fact some “casuals” are acting like jerks is related to their mind-set, but the problem is that they’re jerks. The same goes for the so called “elitists”. The same goes for RPers, and I could go on. However if someone’s thinking, for example, that (some of the) RPers can’t be real jerks, he’s in for a big surprise.

Jerks are Jerks, and when someone lumps them together with other people who share the same mindset we’ll naturally be having a conflict. It’s just that it’s in many people’s nature to generalize, and that’s exactly why we’re having this conflict. All in all, if people blamed the right reasons alone, we wouldn’t be insulting the entire “[insert a label here]” crowd.

In a perfect world we’d be having threads like these:

“Why are some of the players setting standards to get in their groups? I don’t like it and I want it changed.”

“Why? Because they have the right to play with whoever they want. It’s their party, their time, their money, and it’s none of your business, even if you don’t like it”

“Ok, I guess I was wrong. Respecting different values is perfectly fine. I might have different values but not everyone has to follow suit.”

In the real world we have many threads like these:

“What the ****?! I want to play with Cleric’s gear and they kicked me (before the group started)? ****ing elitists ruining every game!”

“Get off your high horse, casual ****! Nobody owes you anything. Quit QQing! Entitled QQer…”

“You ****ing elitist! You’re the reason games go down the drain! You’re the reason communities are destroyed!”

And then some people wonder why are we having this conflict…

Darius.4710:

And then some people wonder why are we having this conflict…

We have conflict because the minority of people who bother to read and give sensical replies get drowned out by the sheer amount of froth from others.

Realistically, we can just conclude that “Extremists from each party are why each side sees the other as evil”, but that’s pretty hard to say because it steps on toes apparently.

The problem, to begin with, lies with the fact that those extremists are being jerks. So basically the problem is that they’re jerks, not that they have this mindset or another. It’s when jerks are lumped together with other players, who share the same mindset, that we start having conflicts.

Calling someone a jerk isn’t the same as calling him “elitists scum” or “casual noob” (or “entitled casual”, etc.). That extra label is the reason for so much drama.

This issue exists outside games and predated video games. The real world (inappropriate) labels have a lot to do with race, religion, gender, and origin differences. I guess that are some differences I didn’t mention here.

Edit:

I know it all has to do with many people’s ability to express themselves well enough on these boards, but this isn’t the main issue (as long as there’s no false labeling). The reason I’m saying this is that it matters not what you want to say, as long as the other side isn’t receptive to your message(s).

Try, for example, telling a raging poster that he deserved his kick because he didn’t want to skip when the rest of the team wanted (and it was specified in the LFG sign). Let’s see how far you get…

Right. The assumption here is that all extremists are indeed jerks, and as such you essentially parroted what I just said (other than the edit section, but for what its worth I agree with it).

What quantity have you lost from this thread?

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Right. The assumption here is that all extremists are indeed jerks, and as such you essentially parroted what I just said (other than the edit section, but for what its worth I agree with it).

I didn’t parrot what you said. You just missed my main point. My main point is that we must separate the problem we have with jerks and their mindsets. My main point is that their mindset isn’t only irrelevant to the real problem at hand, but is also one of the major reasons we have this conflict (when lumped together with the fact they’re jerks, even if it’s irrelevant).

Darius.4710:

I didn’t parrot what you said. You just missed my main point. My main point is that we must separate the problem we have with jerks and their mindsets. My main point is that their mindset isn’t only irrelevant to the real problem at hand, but is also one of the major reasons we have this conflict (when lumped together with the fact they’re jerks, even if it’s irrelevant).

EDIT:

I deleted everything that was here before because I finally figured out what you were saying. We’re saying the same thing, you’re just elaborating beyond what I felt was necessary to be said.

Unless you’re trying to argue that ‘Extremists’ and ‘jerks’ are not one in the same, in which case I will say that you are wrong. In the specific instance of this kind of drama, the jerks are the extremists and vice versa.

DigitalKirin.9714:

What quantity have you lost from this thread?

/thread xD

Can we just agree then, that with minimal rewording:

“The jerks from both camps are why both see the other as evil.”

Jerks come from all tiers. Some wannabe elitists are jerks, some skilled elitists are jerks. Same for the other side.

Can we let this one die yet?

I don’t see the other camp as evil, just highly uniformed. Jerks aren’t even my concern, I can handle that no problem.

frifox.5283:

I don’t see the other camp as evil, just highly uniformed. Jerks aren’t even my concern, I can handle that no problem.

Yes, yesss, handle me like that
Hm, sorry. Strange day. Do go on.

dlonie.6547:

Can we just agree then, that with minimal rewording:

“The jerks from both camps are why both see the other as evil.”

Jerks come from all tiers. Some wannabe elitists are jerks, some skilled elitists are jerks. Same for the other side.

Can we let this one die yet?

Just make sure the next poster who comes complaining about jerks, and lumps them with a said community (like elitists, casuals, RPers, etc.), remembers he’s a jerk as well. It’s totally inappropriate to trash the said community just because he’s been hurt by a jerk.

When you’ve been hurt by a jerk, and you flame an entire community for it, you’re also a jerk. Just try telling that to a raging poster who just got hurt and is only searching for legitimacy and someone to blame…

Cookie, one needs not be an extremist to be a jerk. Some jerks are extremists, but some aren’t.

Edit:

As a side note, I wanted to show you all something. The real definition of Elitism has to do with “I’m better than them”. The real elitism is both about judging and about superiority.

When a “casual” (as Obtena called them) labels someone as an Elitist (as a negative label), he actually becomes an Elitist himself. A real Elitist, mind you. By definition. It’s because he feels he’s better than them, usually due to value differences alone. This is the worst kind of Elitism.

I remember a time, on another game’s forum, when a raging “casual” labeled someone else an Elitist but was eventually proved (in front of everybody) as the real Elitist himself. He literally exploded (mentally)…

Problem with elitism and tolerance within big groups of people also has to do with the learning process. Many people are willing to learn, but they either don’t know how to or do not learn as quickly as the community might like them to.

Darius.4710:

Cookie, one needs not be an extremist to be a jerk. Some jerks are extremists, but some aren’t.

No, but in this case for one to partake in actions we’re defining as ‘being a jerk’, they do.

Either way, I’m not interested in debating this. I support dlonie’s post and the idea of letting this sink (srs, Obtena isnt even here anymore).

Sophie Gifu.9762:

Problem with elitism and tolerance within big groups of people also has to do with the learning process. Many people are willing to learn, but they either don’t know how to or do not learn as quickly as the community might like them to.

Let’s start by making sure that real Elitism, not the term some people are flailing around, exists on both sides. Whenever someone claims to be better, due to value differences (not performance alone, which can be empirically proved), he’s an Elitist.

Tolerance is, unfortunately, in very short supply due to two main reasons:

• The “casual” community includes some very nasty jerks, even though jerks exist everywhere.

• The so called “elitists” have what many “casuals” value (performance), not vice versa. Not all “casuals” care about performance, but many of them do. They just won’t openly admit it, sometimes not even to themselves.

So what can we do? Seeing as “casuals” seek the so called “elitists” help, and not vice versa (in almost every case), we must create an atmosphere that really helps tolerance. Jerks help, quite a bit, in creating intolerance. The more tolerant the atmosphere, the greater the number of people helping. This, in turn, contributes to this atmosphere, and so on. Taking care of the jerks, especially the “casual” ones (since one side wants the other one to help, not vice versa), will make a significant change.

How can we do that?

• Talking (politely) to the ones who seem reasonable enough to listen instead of alienating them outright. We’d get better results if someone openly admits his mistakes rather than alienating him outright.

• Alienate the jerks who not only complain about others being jerks, but also label them (“elitist”/“casual”/etc.). Those people usually seek legitimacy when complaining on the forum. The more we portray them as being a smaller (but vocal) minority, every time it happens, the more we help against creating of intolerance on both sides. After all, we’ve established the “casuals” want help more than their counterparts.

• Encourage (not force) “casuals” to help themselves before they start getting help from their counterparts. For example, learning to dodge, watching videos, reading guides, and so on. This won’t only make the helping experience far more enjoyable, but will also create an atmosphere where both (yes I said both) sides go out of their way to help. It really means a lot to the so called “elitists” who want to help. It can also deter someone from rejecting a player who needs help, as he sees that player went out of his way to do his part.

• Find ways to reward (no matter which way) the ones who help “casuals”. This will surely increase the amount of “casuals” being helped by their counterparts. This will, in turn, help creating a better atmosphere, etc.

• I’m sure there are more solutions as well.

Cookie, seeing as you’re not interested in debating that part, I won’t. I still think we’d get more out of this thread if we find solutions, like I’m trying to do here. I think this thread needs not die yet.

Obtena.7952:

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VideoGamermike.5813:

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Alright, guys, I’m making it official: these 2 guys win the dungeon forum! It does not even matter what they’re posting about.

Best. Entertainment. Ever.

All in favor?

I still remember when after practising Mai Trin solo I decided to bring in pugs so more people would get rewards and then they kicked me after they all faceplanted before the first cannon barrage.

And yes, I was the selfish idiot elitist for not cooperating (= dying) so they could resurrect. Also it was my 100% my fault because obviously I should have instantly told them (before getting kicked in 15 seconds) that I’m the party leader (which no one even asked) while fighting against boss which just had wiped rest of the team.

Wethospu.6437:

I still remember when after practising Mai Trin solo I decided to bring in pugs so more people would get rewards and then they kicked me after they all faceplanted before the first cannon barrage.

And yes, I was the selfish idiot elitist for not cooperating (= dying) so they could resurrect. Also it was my 100% my fault because obviously I should have instantly told them (before getting kicked in 15 seconds) that I’m the party leader (which no one even asked) while fighting against boss which just had wiped rest of the team.

Well, now you know better, don’t you.
Those sad, envious, disgusting little creatures… I’ll never trust or help them. I don’t care what anyone says. Never trust anyone unless you talked to them beforehand and established an emotional bond of some kind. Esoteric approach plox.

I always tell old man coleslaw, ’don’t help anyone you don’t know unless it benefits you as well’ because they’re rarely thankful, they’re rude and obnoxious towards any suggestions and they often think its their god given right to be carried and if you refuse to then you’re the selfish one.

Wethospu.6437:

I still remember when after practising Mai Trin solo I decided to bring in pugs so more people would get rewards and then they kicked me after they all faceplanted before the first cannon barrage.

And yes, I was the selfish idiot elitist for not cooperating (= dying) so they could resurrect. Also it was my 100% my fault because obviously I should have instantly told them (before getting kicked in 15 seconds) that I’m the party leader (which no one even asked) while fighting against boss which just had wiped rest of the team.

Although they were in the wrong, perhaps there’s a solution for this. You need not do what you did. Why? Because it promotes intolerance. Your efforts are better spent with people who’ll obviously have a better appreciation for your efforts. They clearly didn’t deserve your help.

Here’s a possible solution to make a more coordinated effort, where it makes it not only easier for both sides, but also far more pleasant:

• Creating a list (perhaps a guild) of “casuals” who want to be helped in said ways. It could be dungeons, it could be open world, it could be anything.

• The list/guild must be some kind of moderators. If one of the helpers (who could be the moderators themselves, if they wanted) tells the moderators someone misbehaved, they put that guy on a black list and kick him from the list/guild. It’s possible to reward moderators so the helpers wouldn’t need to take care of this aspect.

• The list/guild could also have a forum, blog, or a way for the moderators and helpers to communicate with the list (and even outsiders). For example, the moderators and/or helpers could announce which player was banned and for which reason. Outsiders could take note and prevent that player from griefing somewhere else. The communication could be one sided to prevent any kind of grief. Make sure you note that when someone joins the list/guild he understands the possible consequences. A guild message perhaps, or a message on the blog/forum/whatever.

• List/guild members, who proved to go out of their way to help others and/or do their part (for dungeons it could be videos, for example), will be promoted and also praised on the blog/forum.

Basically what we have here is a way to promote tolerance, help, and (above all) allows one to build his reputation. If “casuals” want to be helped, they can take it onto themselves to organize this whole thing, and the helpers will do the rest.

If helpers go out of their way, it’s high time the other side proves it’s worth helping.

A list of players that want to be helped and helpers…
Like [noob]?
… yet, I still see PHIWs abusing other players and posting complaint threads about unhelpful elitists every single day, despite the dungeon mentor thread being stickied on this very forum. I mean, I couldn’t care less about PHIWs trolling; what bothers me is that they claim to be annoyed because they don’t get help, yet they can’t even read a stickied thread. All of this while they’re posting ON the forum.

The slim percentage of people who want to listen, learn and improve will find their way to get help because they want to be helped. I met a shocking amount of shy and socially inept people, yet they all managed to improve someway… me included.