Guild Wars 2

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Certain someone is making me want to bash my head against a wall until either one of them breaks.

Don’t stop on account of that … PLEASE ;P

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Certain someone is making me want to bash my head against a wall until either one of them breaks.

Don’t stop on account of that … PLEASE ;P

Kinda off-topic, but pick one:

• Democrat.
• Republican.

I won’t go any further or deeper into this. I’d just like to know it for reasons.

Maybe there is a test I can take because I don’t even know what those political affiliations represent ><

Let’s just forget it altogether, then. A quiz would not be appropriate to decide on that.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Certain someone is making me want to bash my head against a wall until either one of them breaks.

Don’t stop on account of that … PLEASE ;P

Kinda off-topic, but pick one:

• Democrat.
• Republican.

I won’t go any further or deeper into this. I’d just like to know it for reasons.

This is awesome. omg XD

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Certain someone is making me want to bash my head against a wall until either one of them breaks.

Don’t stop on account of that … PLEASE ;P

Kinda off-topic, but pick one:

• Democrat.
• Republican.

I won’t go any further or deeper into this. I’d just like to know it for reasons.

Not American, but Democrat.

Sadistic.
Oops.

The Pug environment is fine and healthy. The people who are complaining are well in the minority and are simply misdirecting their frustration or are just plain speaking out of their behind.

I pug daily, and often I use the ranger/necro/engi/whatever class people think makes them get kicked these days. When I do I almost always join non-descriptive lfg’s, or I make my own simple lfg “p2”. I never have a problem with the people that join or with the party that I join regarding meta/elitistkitten/kazul/whatever is being complained about in this thread.

IMO the root of the problem is this: people who see lfg posts with descriptions that excludes their type of playstyle get unjustly offended. Their insecurity and low self esteem sends their minds into a “OMG HOW DARE YOU EXCLUDE ME” frenzy and they start thinking up of irrational ways to blame this made up “toxic lfg pugging environment” on the people that simply want to play with other people with similar playstyles.

My advice is to chill the F out and just play the game. There are plenty of people that will play with you w/o any requirements. I do so daily.

^ Exactly this. Remember that the LFG tool actually fills rather quickly. It might be possible for a new group to form, get filled and disappear before your browser actually updates. I’ve never really had trouble forming or joining “all welcome” PUGs for dungeons or Fractals unless I’m playing at really quiet hours.

Let the elitists play how they want, and form your own groups to play how you want.

This “casual vs. elitist” thing is very interesting to me. I pug Arah (I’m a masochist, I know), and I’ve joined both Px, ZERK, PING GEAR, MELEE LUPI OR KICK, 2000000000k AP OR KICK, and “Please help us” runs, and honestly haven’t seen much of this elitism. Maybe it’s just in the lower tier dungeons that this is prevalent, but I honestly haven’t seen much of it.

I have seen people be mean, and those people were kicked, but this “elitist” mentality doesn’t seem to be as prevalent in Arah as it may be in other dungeons.

Besides, if you’re not going for a record, chill. I totally understand the whole time/reward thing, I really do, but if you don’t like the way the dungeon is going, just leave, or if you made the group, be polite and tell the player that they just aren’t cutting it. That usually will soften the blow.

Manners folks. This can all be fixed with manners.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Certain someone is making me want to bash my head against a wall until either one of them breaks.

Don’t stop on account of that … PLEASE ;P

Kinda off-topic, but pick one:

• Democrat.
• Republican.

I won’t go any further or deeper into this. I’d just like to know it for reasons.

You’re thinking in a great direction but a bit off.

Just one word: libertarians (not to mix with liberals).

Because sometimes they speak the sad truth about the game, that many players want to overcome on their own.

P.S. I hate Asuras. May be a reason why I dislike some players playing them

Rym.1469:

Because sometimes they speak the sad truth about the game, that many players want to overcome on their own.

P.S. I hate Asuras. May be a reason why I dislike some players playing them

Steer clear of Lilith, whatever you do…

Rym.1469:

Because sometimes they speak the sad truth about the game, that many players want to overcome on their own.

P.S. I hate Asuras. May be a reason why I dislike some players playing them

kitten all those fashionably sensible people for playing asuras. How dare they look better than you. Like seriously who would play one looks around shiftily

Rym.1469:

Because sometimes they speak the sad truth about the game, that many players want to overcome on their own.

P.S. I hate Asuras. May be a reason why I dislike some players playing them

Racist

Tom Yzf.5872:

The Pug environment is fine and healthy. The people who are complaining are well in the minority and are simply misdirecting their frustration or are just plain speaking out of their behind.

I pug daily, and often I use the ranger/necro/engi/whatever class people think makes them get kicked these days. When I do I almost always join non-descriptive lfg’s, or I make my own simple lfg “p2”. I never have a problem with the people that join or with the party that I join regarding meta/elitistkitten/kazul/whatever is being complained about in this thread.

IMO the root of the problem is this: people who see lfg posts with descriptions that excludes their type of playstyle get unjustly offended. Their insecurity and low self esteem sends their minds into a “OMG HOW DARE YOU EXCLUDE ME” frenzy and they start thinking up of irrational ways to blame this made up “toxic lfg pugging environment” on the people that simply want to play with other people with similar playstyles.

My advice is to chill the F out and just play the game. There are plenty of people that will play with you w/o any requirements. I do so daily.

Quoted for truest truth.

Of all the days to come back and try to talk to people…

Anyway I’ll spare my usual diatribes as I have a much bigger post to make elsewhere.
My problem is two-fold and is why I use the word “elitist”

1) http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Class Look at this link. You don’t have to play because I’m going to tell you, Xcom has a real lack of in-game tactics and strategy. There’s a lot of basic stuff, but really, I have played this hardcore enough to see the real lack of options in single player. But look at this, there are three different builds on the wiki alone, plus I personally know of 2 more to boot.
Now compare that to guild Wars 2, a game with an incalculable number of options and lots of different things to do. Admittedly more in strategy than tactics but that’s not the point. what is the point is this. In a game of such amazing diversity and game balance…there is only one meta-build. No, really, I looked, I struggle to find even a second “accepted” build for say, my mesmer; it’s all just ONE strategy with ONE instruction manual for it. Thats not a hardcore society, thats a bunch of casual fools pretending to be “pro” while pushing away anyone else with the label “casual” as an insult, one I’ve been given a lot in and out of this forum.

2) Now, I have no issue with people whom want full berserker speedruns. Those aren’t inherently “evil” in that. However, the problem is that “experienced only”, isn’t used to mean experience, it’s used to mean you follow the single running instruction guide. My problem is that out of 5 groups in the LFG, there is maybe ONE that isn’t “lvl 80 only, zerk only, exp only.” It’s not the strategy that bugs me, its the abysmal over-saturation and the arrogant assumption that the instruction guide is best.

That is why I call those elitist fools, elitist fools. When you don’t want to put any effort at all into the game, and are instead throwing around the word efficiency, you have no right to be lecturing others.

edit: And no, the pug environment is poisenous, full of people whom skip and stack at ever interval even when the game whom made the party asked not to(first hand experience,) and where 4/5 groups are all “lvl 80, exp, zerk only.” Need I even mention the point I was told “F**** KILL YOURSELF” for going against the instruction guides? Sound healthy to you?

In a game of such amazing diversity and game balance…there is only one meta-build. No, really, I looked, I struggle to find even a second “accepted” build for say, my mesmer;

30/30/0/0/10
30/20/0/20/0
30/20/0/0/20
10/15/0/25/20

scholar runes/ranger runes
berserker/assassin gear
force/night/slaying/accuracy/perception sigils
sword/pistol/focus + torch for skips & blast finisher

there’s quite a few options for mesmer.

so you should have looked in to mesmer builds a bit deeper.

Thats not a hardcore society, thats a bunch of casual fools pretending to be “pro” while pushing away anyone else with the label “casual” as an insult, one I’ve been given a lot in and out of this forum.

define:hardcore:

“the most active, committed, or doctrinaire members of a group or movement.”

I’m pretty sure it’s the people running the meta who fit that criteria for PvE, PvP and WvW. they’re actively playing the game, they’re committed to it (and in our case some of us make guides). Not sure about doctrinaire, since the whole point is that meta builds are the most practical…. but meh.

the problem is that “experienced only”, isn’t used to mean experience, it’s used to mean you follow the single running instruction guide. My problem is that out of 5 groups in the LFG, there is maybe ONE that isn’t “lvl 80 only, zerk only, exp only.” It’s not the strategy that bugs me, its the abysmal over-saturation and the arrogant assumption that the instruction guide is best.

The “instruction guide” is best, but only as long as you can execute it yourself. The “instruction guide” operates under the assumption that you have the skill level capable of pulling it off, so yes, if you can’t perform some of the popular strategies then it won’t be the best way to do things.

That is why I call those elitist fools, elitist fools. When you don’t want to put any effort at all into the game, and are instead throwing around the word efficiency, you have no right to be lecturing others

How does a lack of effort equate to elitism?
elitism:

“Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others”

(thought I’d find a more relevant to GW2 definition on the wiki than the google one)

There is nothing here about lack of effort, it’s to do with person X thinking their view is better than person Y. To put in to GW2 terms, it’s to do with person A putting up requirement B for their LFG and kicking people C, D and E who don’t fit the criteria because person A feels their view is right, and C, D and E did not fit in to that vision and so were excluded from the group.

edit: And no, the pug environment is poisenous, full of people whom skip and stack at ever interval even when the game whom made the party asked not to(first hand experience,) and where 4/5 groups are all “lvl 80, exp, zerk only.” Need I even mention the point I was told “F**** KILL YOURSELF” for going against the instruction guides? Sound healthy to you?

The pug environment is not poisonous at all. I don’t even know why people say this, I have literally never had problems with rude people, and anyone who did came across as rude was quickly put in place.

Man, I didn’t miss him at all. I better disappear again from the forums for a while, since Scooby’s presence makes my blood pressure raise dramatically.
In the meantime, you don’t want to consume your fingers like that… it’s such a waste of effort.
The bottom line of the whole thing is that elitists are evil and should be wiped from earth. Fine by me, I’m used to being treated like scum. It feels like home.

New poster here, but this thread intrigued me enough to want to put in my two cents.
In my mind the PHITY/PHIW dichotomy comes down to he difference between people who are primarily logic orientated versus the people who are primarily feeling orientated.
The PHITY ‘elitists’ are the people who are logic orientated. These people are outcome-driven. They see the dungeon as a means to a greater end in the future. To this end they used the most efficient builds and tactics because, logically, that is the fastest way to achieve their end goals. They may enjoy the present, but they aren’t focused on it.
The PHIW ‘casuals’ are feeling orientated. They want to enjoy the moment and feel like individuals (hence why they resent the Zerk meta). They use the builds they like the idea of and probably want to enjoy the dungeons, with the end goal rewards being more of a bonus than the main objective.
Obviously these two approaches are going to clash. Where the PHITY sees that they are merely informing other people of a more efficient way to play, thereby helping them, the PHIW is going to see this as a personal attack on their individuality and respond with personal insults, which the PHITY views as groundless and ad hominem.
I’ve seen a lot of people on this thread in the PHITY camp say ‘why would you join my lfg when it clearly says 80 zerks’ or words to that effect. My guess would be the PHIWs you get joining either don’t know the terminology, or they think ‘well it says that you need to be a zerk warrior, but once they see how good my mesmer nomad’s build is they’ll love me!‘. Then when they join gear is pinged and they feel like they’re reduced to numbers rather than a person. Both parties walk away angry.
The PHIW hampers the PHITY’s ability to achieve their end goals, and the PHITY hampers the PHIW’s ability to enjoy the moment and feel like a valued individual.
Obviously in reality none of us are fully one or the other, but we all probably have a preference and find the other harder to understand.
Just a thought.
And yes I did just go CG Jung up in this piece. What?

1) Ok…I conceed on the build thing a little bit. Yes there is still a bigger problem of only one strategy. But either way, multiple tactics still so it’s a start.

2) Hardcore are people who put a lot of effort into the game and it’s systems. They are the people who work to develop new strategies, ideas, and expand the game through making all those ideas as strong as they can to the respective goals. Being active and just going through the dungeon claiming “Efficiency,” is not hardcore. again, see my instruction guide comment.

3) You’re first sentence killed the rest of the comment. “This build is best” is not the though process of someone whom truely understands this game, nor understands real hardcore gaming. the rest has nothing to do with my quote so I won’t address it.

4) See you’re own post when you say this. “The “instruction guide” is best” isn’t that case in point of the elitism? Anyway I do agree, it’s ok to ask for a speedrun group in LFG and kick when people don’t listen to your demands. However as I said, my issue is the frequency of them appearing. I have done dungeons enough to say this. -EVERY- time I try to dungeon run, 4/5 groups want “lvl 80, exp, zerks only.” It’s not that they exist, it’s that it’s become the expectation.

5 and most important)———————-

Did you not read what I said? 4/5 groups want to put zero effort and kick anyone whom doesn’t obey their one instruction guide called the metagame. Baulder’s Gate II has more of a metagame, and that game has terrible balancing. I was Told to “F&&&&&& KILL YOURSELF” for telling people not to abandon those whom were downed in a world event. I was called a burden, moronic, and a fool, -multiple- times on this forum and in game(worse in game) because I state that playing the game by one variable(DPS) is just stupid. I was told it was morally ok to kick people because they weren’t died all pink. All of that and you want to say there isn’t a problem?

All that being said….I do have to admit you made me rethinking my perspective a bit. What I’ve gone through in the tail end of me playing the game(I still haven’t decided if I want to play anymore, I hope I don’t get the treatment I did before) was just inexcusable. It’s left me very jaded and I shouldn’t be so pessimistic. Thank you for showing me that I have to let my previous anger go.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

I’m playing how I want, in my own party that I create. People join and expect me to put up with how they want to play. They ignore my request in the lfg, they don’t care about pinging gear and somehow we are on equal footing when it comes to being in the wrong. I don’t think so. They can make their own parties the same as I make mine. I’m not forcing anything on them, they can choose to join my group and adhere to my rules or they can choose to make their own group with their own rules. Never have I joined their groups and told them off for running terrible builds or doing stupid crap because I respect their rules, now all I do is expect that in return and I get abuse hurled at me and labelled an elitist. Lol.

That’s a nice story but play how I tell you people have been hating on play how I want people since BEFORE the LFG thing was established.

That’s irrelevant and doesn’t take away from the fact that this is happening.

I’m not arguing it’s not happening … I don’t even get the point of bringing it up.

Here is an interesting mind experiment … make a game where 100% of the people that play it play how they want … would that game have all of these hateful threads about elitists, etc….? You guys aren’t recognizing that cause and effect here. You slap a guy, he slaps you back. Now your complaining you got slapped? That’s some good revisionist history there.

Problem with your argument is missing the first “slap”, which is joining the party that you clearly did not meet the requirements for. That is the cause. The effect is the kick/complaints.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

I’m playing how I want, in my own party that I create. People join and expect me to put up with how they want to play. They ignore my request in the lfg, they don’t care about pinging gear and somehow we are on equal footing when it comes to being in the wrong. I don’t think so. They can make their own parties the same as I make mine. I’m not forcing anything on them, they can choose to join my group and adhere to my rules or they can choose to make their own group with their own rules. Never have I joined their groups and told them off for running terrible builds or doing stupid crap because I respect their rules, now all I do is expect that in return and I get abuse hurled at me and labelled an elitist. Lol.

That’s a nice story but play how I tell you people have been hating on play how I want people since BEFORE the LFG thing was established.

That’s irrelevant and doesn’t take away from the fact that this is happening.

I’m not arguing it’s not happening … I don’t even get the point of bringing it up.

Here is an interesting mind experiment … make a game where 100% of the people that play it play how they want … would that game have all of these hateful threads about elitists, etc….? You guys aren’t recognizing that cause and effect here. You slap a guy, he slaps you back. Now your complaining you got slapped? That’s some good revisionist history there.

Sorry not seeing how me making my own party, minding my own business and then having people ignore my requirements and abuse me = my fault.

Of course not … you haven’t done anything to promote intolerance in the game ever ><

A cooperative environment where each person is depending on the other for success is not the optimal venue for tolerance. It would be different if each individual had no impact at all on success…if success was guaranteed with no variance on time, effort, and opportunity cost.

2) Hardcore are people who put a lot of effort into the game and it’s systems. They are the people who work to develop new strategies, ideas, and expand the game through making all those ideas as strong as they can to the respective goals. Being active and just going through the dungeon claiming “Efficiency,” is not hardcore. again, see my instruction guide comment.

The problem is it’s hard to define the point where someone slips out of hardcore and in to, I suppose, “normal”. I’d consider a lot of people in the guild I’m in hardcore because they’re active, committed to the game and are the people who create the meta to allow other people to follow and learn it. But sure, you’re right – if someone logs in every day, does some dungeons and just tries to claim X is efficient that isn’t really hardcore at all.

3) You’re first sentence killed the rest of the comment. “This build is best” is not the though process of someone whom truely understands this game, nor understands real hardcore gaming. the rest has nothing to do with my quote so I won’t address it.

“best” in the sense of “optimal”. Take record videos for example – they are the seemingly best thing possible to do for that dungeon, but no pug is ever going to have the skill, patience or organisation to pull it off. Then you can look at casual dungeon runs, like when Nike uploads ours. Still pretty fast tactics but not super risky high-end stuff, so most people look at them and try to emulate them since they seem within the realm of possibility. Again, in most cases that isn’t possible, so the next level are the “common knowledge” tactics which form over time. If you can’t perform fast runs like ours or records, then this is your next best bet. So basically, your problem is with people who try performing strategies which are either out of their or their group’s depth because “this guide said so” – which makes sense, there’s no point trying to do anything fancy in a pug group for example.

4) See you’re own post when you say this. “The “instruction guide” is best” isn’t that case in point of the elitism? Anyway I do agree, it’s ok to ask for a speedrun group in LFG and kick when people don’t listen to your demands. However as I said, my issue is the frequency of them appearing. I have done dungeons enough to say this. -EVERY- time I try to dungeon run, 4/5 groups want “lvl 80, exp, zerks only.” It’s not that they exist, it’s that it’s become the expectation.

I almost exclusively pug with nondescript LFGs. It’s a simple case of making a group yourself – those “exp, zerks only” groups are the only thing you’re seeing on the LFG because they take longer to fill, but the nondescript or casual runs fill quickly because there’s no requirements so you rarely see them. I’d recommend making your own group, I’ve just wrote “path 2”, start soloing waiting for the group to fill and literally had no bites up until the second last boss but that was a one-off, every other group I make fills pretty quickly.

I was called a burden, moronic, and a fool, -multiple- times on this forum and in game(worse in game) because I state that playing the game by one variable(DPS) is just stupid.

But it’s not stupid, and I don’t see why it is. Any video game which involves killing stuff is damage-centric. In a trinity game you’ll have like a healer, tank and 3 DPS – you have three DPS because damage is what actually kills stuff, the healer and tank are just there to control the boss mechanics and keep everyone’s HP topped off, but they do jack all damage, you need to eventually kill the boss so that’s why you need damage dealing.

I was told it was morally ok to kick people because they weren’t died all pink.

If you make a group and ask for people to be wearing pink dye and people don’t wear it and refuse to wear it, you have every right to kick them since they didn’t bother reading your requirement.

VideoGamermike.5813:

Of all the days to come back and try to talk to people…

Ladies and gents, he is baaaaaack!!

*grabs popcorn

I’m out….

Funny stuff about “elitist vs casual” in gw2 is that on gw2 you can have casual who are definitely way better than selfcalling elitist.

Gw2 is definetly the only game where copy&paste an obal build & having a fgs makes you feel like an elitist without the need of understand anything of game mechanics or being skilled.

Usually in real pve competitive game people who just copy&paste build are craps, here are the elite. Dunno what is more sad, people who feel pro to have copyed something or the game itsself who its so easy that requires people just to copy a build to feel pro.

Why has casual turned into “bad player” I’ve always had the impression that it just means you don’t focus as much effort or time as the average player. People who have jobs or families (or whatever) that keep them busy and off the game would likely be casual, doesn’t mean they’re bad.

Copying builds is something I’ve seen many times before also. I use to write guides for EQ and DCUO, people used those and they could be good if they executed them properly, if they wanted to be better than that though they needed to deviate from them when the times were right. You mention Obal, so for example for guard while 45005 may be a good catch all build, 46202 with or without UC will be better in many situations. Knowing when to use what is what makes a player better than just good.

And last, @A Brown Cow, I think you’re spot on with that.

Last Time I used LFG, I had the luck to get in a group with at least one well known Player of a decent guild.
The bad thing was ,he killed half of the group by rushing forward and playing like he’s doing the dungeon solo just to show his “skills” and talking big.
So year … I don’t really need elitists in a group if they can’t play in a group.
And I noticed this behavior of certain guilds lot of times.
If this is the general case, it’s not that surprise where all the hate towards elitists comes from. The demeanor of some elitists in the community is just whack.

Jerus.4350:

And last, @A Brown Cow, I think you’re spot on with that.

Not at all. Still stuck like most of the people in the definition of emotional as the opposite of a “logical” person and of emotions as illogical or killers of logic. There’s nothing more wrong than this. Unless you talk about the real definition of the greek logic, which is totally fine, but then giving emotions as an example to contrast it is just horrible.
PHIWs are emotional and elitists are logical? Since when? It’s time we get rid of these clichés. Are we talking about min-maxers, spreadsheet addicts only?
Also L.O.L. at the – as always – positive qualities given to PHIWs, qualities most of them don’t have. “Feel like individuals”. Hm. Sure, that’s totally why they play staff guardian, to avoid being drones like us… Maybe 1% of them.
I’m the most emotional person I’ve ever had the disgrace of meeting (sadly, I had to live with myself for so long), but I don’t lack logic… What drives most people like me towards the… uh… efficiency? the speedrunning? let’s say the scumbag elitist mentality, is simply the desire to learn, to improve and the thirst for knowing new things. End of story. Deal with it. I don’t have gears instead of a heart, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Improving comes naturally with time, unless you have some other deficiencies.
PHIWs just won’t bother improving, or don’t have the time to do so. Totally fine by me. As long as they don’t impede me or my mates.

And just sayin’, if someone is so stupid to see any comment made on their game as a “personal attack” – elitist or PHIW, casual or hardcore, I’ll see that person as just that, an idiot. You wanna be free? special? You better find your way to the door of freedom.
Only a few things in this world cause my rage more than a person refusing to listen to other people, especially if they’re in a position of being able to teach you something. Have some humility?

P.S. I don’t use PHIWs as a synonym for casuals, here. I refer to the most annoying among them. Pretty sure you know what I’m talking about.

Meh, don’t mind me. I’m just… emotional It’s always a bunch of ups and downs.

A Brown Cow.7286:

Obviously in reality none of us are fully one or the other, but we all probably have a preference and find the other harder to understand.

I think that’s a key part of his post.

I don’t think he was trying to call Meta type people Vulcans, I read it as just saying that those people approach the game with a more scientific thought process. They try to think of the best solutions. Where the PHIW do things just because they feel like it.

I love Sword/Board, but I don’t use it in this game because outside of a few situations shields are just /bleh.

PHIWs are lazy or don’t have time to get better.

deSade.9437:

PHIWs are lazy or don’t have time to get better.

Or like to experiment and get creative. Come up with new builds from the ground up. Try to see if they can make underused skills useful.
There’s not much room to experiment if you’re in the meta camp, at least not when compared to those that don’t conform to the meta. Generally the only creators within the meta are those that create the meta. Everyone else follows their lead and some of them do so blindly.

Lifestealer.4910:

When a person comes to a “all zerk, be experienced” or “want X class for X content” party and the person who clearly don’t fit the bill and didn’t bother reading the lfg and joins gets kicked, why is it that the elitest players gets the hate?..

If people want to do things casually they can, just open up lfg and put your descriptions something like “no trash skips, play casually” or “all cleric gear party” there. I really doubt there would be zerker elitest players joining that party, and if they do, you can do same thing and kick them!.. win win situation

i agree 100%

i think it’s because casuals don’t want to carry their own weight, so they don’t want to play with other casuals, they wan’t to get a free ride on the sweat and hard labor of elitists

it’s that simple, they’re just mad because we refuse to carry them

J Eberle.9312:

I honestly just don’t even anymore. They join without reading, or they read and join anyway and expect a charity run just for them. It’s like the lights are on but nobody is home.

made me chuckle, that is very well put because it’s so very true

that’s why i need we should introduce limitation into the LFG, for example, you would put a limitation on it and if they didn’t meet the requirements, they would get a message ‘’you do not meet the requirements for this party, please try joining a different party that suits you’’

that would be perfect

Dual.8953:

deSade.9437:

PHIWs are lazy or don’t have time to get better.

Or like to experiment and get creative. Come up with new builds from the ground up. Try to see if they can make underused skills useful.
There’s not much room to experiment if you’re in the meta camp, at least not when compared to those that don’t conform to the meta. Generally the only creators within the meta are those that create the meta. Everyone else follows their lead and some of them do so blindly.

Uhh…the “meta” people experiment and get creative as well. Most of these meta builds came from A LOT of experimentation.

JasmineLong.6514:

Dual.8953:

deSade.9437:

PHIWs are lazy or don’t have time to get better.

Or like to experiment and get creative. Come up with new builds from the ground up. Try to see if they can make underused skills useful.
There’s not much room to experiment if you’re in the meta camp, at least not when compared to those that don’t conform to the meta. Generally the only creators within the meta are those that create the meta. Everyone else follows their lead and some of them do so blindly.

Uhh…the “meta” people experiment and get creative as well. Most of these meta builds came from A LOT of experimentation.

I said that. “Some” meta players experiment, that’s how we get guides and premade builds. The rest of them just slap on someone else’s build and let a guide make decissions for them.

There’s not much room to experiment if you’re in the meta camp, at least not when compared to those that don’t conform to the meta.

This is just throwing me off I guess. I can always see there being some sort of improvement in the meta, just have to spend the time and work on it.

There would be plenty of variation and experimentation in the meta if anet did meaningful balance updates on a regular basis. And maybe added some new skills and weapons. Its only been 2 years after all.

I’ve always viewed any meta build as a starting point. Especially with on-the-fly retraiting now, I start with a meta build and swap things around to suit a particular encounter. I think it’s a little simplistic to say that meta players just blindly slap on a build and run with it. To be effective running the meta, you still have to know your class and experiment a bit.

There is a lot of build diversity in GW2, but unfortunately most of the builds just aren’t as useful in an organized dungeon group of experienced players — that’s where the meta comes in. Meta builds describe the regions of build configuration space that promote party support, heavy damage, and active damage mitigation, while avoiding areas that promote selfish/pointless configurations. Selfish being things like signet warrior, and pointless being something like the “Banners do more damage when placed” trait. 500 damage every 90 seconds just plain isn’t useful.

A lot of those selfish/pointless traits are just there to be fun. And they are. There are some builds I’ve used that are a blast to play in other parts of the game, but I wouldn’t bring them into a dungeon. For example, I really liked my “crippling thief build” which threw spikes everywhere. Super fun to troll in PvP with (50+ seconds of cripple, anyone?), but requires wasting dodges, does low DPS, etc — not so good for dungeon running.

I think a major point that is rarely discussed is experience. By definition, the ‘elitest, hardcore’ crowd plays more than the casual, PHIW crowd. Therefore, those players have run dungeons more, especially if that’s their thing. Those dungeons have been around for two years, and for people that have run them every day, they’re a stale way of making money.

On the flip side, people just starting out, or who only play occasionally, or that spend time doing things other than dungeons, might not be familiar with them. They still hold some allure and mystery. As has been mentioned, watching videos and reading guides is not the same as doing it yourself. These people haven’t experienced the paths ad nauseum still might find a two hour CoF p3 exciting and enjoyable, whereas a seasoned vet can do it blind drunk on a laptop trackpad, and just want it done.

The point being, there is a progression. I would bet that a lot of the hardcore crowd have run dungeons in PVT gear, with Sc/F guards, at some point in their GW career. They moved on to what worked best for the group, so they could complete it more efficiently, because slowly but surely, the paths became more about getting done than wandering around, learning the bosses, and getting better at their class. The filthy casual of today can become the elitest scumbag of tomorrow, just by playing for long enough.

And that, son, is how babies are made.

The point being, there is a progression. I would bet that a lot of the hardcore crowd have run dungeons in PVT gear, with Sc/F guards, at some point in their GW career. They moved on to what worked best for the group, so they could complete it more efficiently, because slowly but surely, the paths became more about getting done than wandering around, learning the bosses, and getting better at their class. The filthy casual of today can become the elitest scumbag of tomorrow, just by playing for long enough.

This is basically what a lot of people forget. The long, drawn out, boring, embarrassing stories I could tell about my early days playing this game. I’ve been playing since head start and I honestly started getting into the “hardcore” side of the game the beginning of this year.

Dual.8953:

deSade.9437:

PHIWs are lazy or don’t have time to get better.

Or like to experiment and get creative. Come up with new builds from the ground up. Try to see if they can make underused skills useful.
There’s not much room to experiment if you’re in the meta camp, at least not when compared to those that don’t conform to the meta. Generally the only creators within the meta are those that create the meta. Everyone else follows their lead and some of them do so blindly.

PHIWs are lazy and don’t want to get better and learn the game mechanics.

The fact that I’ve never written a guide doesn’t mean I blindly followed a guide and slapped the build on my character.
The only build I copied without thinking was strife’s AH build, when everyone told me to use it because it was so good. At that time, I was already slowly evolving towards a dps traited guardian with soldier armor + berserker rest, and I was considering to go full berserker once ready. I think the traits were something like 20/15/x/x/10… and I was trying to figure out if going full radiance was better. I played 10/25/stuff for so long that I still can’t adapt to the new 20/25.

The math I do is extremely basic and, often, wrong and inaccurate, but… do you think it’s that hard to come up with a decent dps build for a class? Decent, not the best of all. Is it that hard to gather all the dps modifiers, all the 10% you can, and then slap some support as gravy? Well, it’s not.

Also, for some classes – sadly not ranger, there are MANY builds that are very good for many situations and you can swap at will while being perfectly efficient and useful to your party with no need to go balls-deep on a build you hate. I hate playing mantras on my mes, so I use them only when I feel like it’s much better for my team to use them (such as lupi).

Don’t you think I’ve tried finding another build for my ranger, not the one brazil wrote about? I tried 30-25-15, I tried 20-25-0-15, I tried 20-25-25, I tried 30-15-25, I tried 20-25-0-15-10… that one works better in most situations but full reflecting. Nothing I can do about it.
Am I running around whining about it because a kid is cooler than me and is better at maths? No. If a build is better, it’s better.
… Also, that build was around the ranger forum for a good while before he wrote the guide. Guides don’t mean what people think they mean. They’re just that, a guide.

Are people blind because they admit that a build is much better than some alternatives? Well, then I’m fine with being blind.

I’m done discussing this now. Time to “farm money” in dungeons with my friends, since I’m not a casual and therefore I can’t have fun while doing a clean, fast run with “meta” builds. I only play to be mean to others and tell them how to play, obviously.

JasmineLong.6514:

The point being, there is a progression. I would bet that a lot of the hardcore crowd have run dungeons in PVT gear, with Sc/F guards, at some point in their GW career. They moved on to what worked best for the group, so they could complete it more efficiently, because slowly but surely, the paths became more about getting done than wandering around, learning the bosses, and getting better at their class. The filthy casual of today can become the elitest scumbag of tomorrow, just by playing for long enough.

This is basically what a lot of people forget. The long, drawn out, boring, embarrassing stories I could tell about my early days playing this game. I’ve been playing since head start and I honestly started getting into the “hardcore” side of the game the beginning of this year.

So much this. There’s a reason that a lot of the ‘elitists’ say meta is superior to a homemade, PHIW build — it’s because many of us have tried both, and once we tried meta we realized how much better it is. Shout heal warrior? AH/EM Staff guard? p/p thief? We’ve tried them, and they just don’t offer as much once you get over the novelty of the dungeons.

Until then, kitten it — play what you want and have fun. Just don’t join exp/zerk/speed parties with those builds.

It’s actually really simple, most of the time it’s not what is being said but rather how it’s being said that kittenes people off on either side of the fence. The whole “elitist” vs “casual” argument is as old as mmorpg’s. Everyone just needs to remember, that regardless of skill level or understanding of game mechanics we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

want to buy guide to putting on pants

JasmineLong.6514:

This is basically what a lot of people forget.

And it’s forgotten by both sides. There is huge amount of players that fit into the casual category. They don’t care about efficiency, or math, or rotations. They just do what works for them and have fun while they’re logged in. More power to them. They don’t run dungeons, or know they’re probably not going to fit into a ‘zerk 80 exp’ group, if they even run dungeons at all.

On balance, I’ve found most of the top tier players understand the casual mentality and respect it for what it is – another way of playing the game. If people want to get better, they’ll help. If people want to quietly go in their corner and kill Pinipals all day, they won’t berate them for it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve apologized to people obviously better than me for stupid mistakes, just to have them say ’it’s cool, you’re learning. You’ll get it", and then offer some advice.

The issue is people in the middle. The casual and elitist groups that forget that people are just in different places and mindsets in the game. Most forum warrior casuals have no clue how much time, effort and repairs learning to melee Lupi or Imbued Shaman takes. Or maybe they don’t care. A lot of ‘nouveau riche’ dungeon elites are so focused on speed and pushing their boundaries and getting to the next level that they can’t help but disdain the people with less interest or skill. Or maybe it’s just too close to home for comfort. Iunno. There’s certainly a segment of both populations that could stand to take a step back and ask themselves just how much this other guy is really affecting his day.

JasmineLong.6514:

we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

want to buy guide to putting on pants

http://www.wikihow.com/Put-On-a-Pair-of-Pants

That will be $22.50 please!!!

@DeSade: If PHIW players are all lazy, how do you classify the players that experiment with builds on a regular basis on a whim, and using their personal skill to make up for their build’s deficiencies? The kind of player that goes “lets see if I can make a Gadget Engie or Trap Thief work?”
They certainly aren’t doing it just to bum runs off of other players. If anything they’re looking for unique experiences.

Also, although there are those in the meta that understand why they build the way they build, then there are the other players who blindly follow the meta, those players that actually think that you can’t do a dungeon without the meta and die instantly when something goes wrong.

How about Ill make my group any way I see fit, and if you don’t like it, make your own?