Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

I could be misinterpreting this. But what I took from this post is you think its ok to set requirements for a group. But if someone who doesnt meet those requirements joins your LFG you should take the time to explain exactly what your LFG message means before removing them. Or you are not allowed to kick them at all.

What twisted logic makes you think this?

The logic that tells me people with requirements want better understanding and behaviour from people joining as their teams as PUGs.

Fortunately i dont pug and when I do i find it more enjoyable to witness the creative bad builds people come up with.

Then I guess you don’t mind when bads join your team when you do PUG then. I’m glad you’re so tolerant.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

I could be misinterpreting this. But what I took from this post is you think its ok to set requirements for a group. But if someone who doesnt meet those requirements joins your LFG you should take the time to explain exactly what your LFG message means before removing them. Or you are not allowed to kick them at all.

What twisted logic makes you think this?

The logic that tells me people with requirements want better understanding and behaviour from people joining as their teams as PUGs.

I’d like to know how are experienced players supposed to teach the less experienced if they don’t do so much as asking a darn question? Whenever there’s an unseasoned player in a group, it is often that no one notices, until said person is admiring the floor’s masterful craftsmanship up close or has had the pleasure of doing so in numerous occasions. It is then when their lack of preparation becomes apparent and it tends to upset group leaders because they preferred to keep quiet and risk wasting everyone’s time instead of asking from the beginning.

If they joined knowing that they would get kicked because of their gear of choice or lack of experience if they voiced them, then they were aware that they did not fulfill the requirements for that group and joined anyway, putting their own agenda above the groups’.

If they joined simply because they didn’t understand what the ad meant, then they would ask as they join, which they rarely ever do.

I know it might not be the case, but in many occasions it feels like they’re attempting to fool the groups they join, and that, in my opinion is insulting and deserves a kick.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

I could be misinterpreting this. But what I took from this post is you think its ok to set requirements for a group. But if someone who doesnt meet those requirements joins your LFG you should take the time to explain exactly what your LFG message means before removing them. Or you are not allowed to kick them at all.

What twisted logic makes you think this?

The logic that tells me people with requirements want better understanding and behaviour from people joining as their teams as PUGs.

I’d like to know how are experienced players supposed to teach the less experienced if they don’t do so much as asking a darn question?

I’ve already addressed that. The fact that people don’t ask doesn’t relieve anyone of their own responsibility to ensure they team with people that share their values. I know it’s an extra step for people to be nice and tolerant to but … if you want to be helpful to them AND people that share your teaming values, you can take a minute to explain what you are after and why they don’t fit that expectation.

Obtena.7952:

I’ve already addressed that. The fact that people don’t ask doesn’t relieve anyone of their own responsibility to ensure they team with people that share their values. I know it’s an extra step for people to be nice and tolerant to but … if you want to be helpful to them AND people that share your teaming values, you can take a minute to explain what you are after and why they don’t fit that expectation.

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative. You’re acting like “casuals” require such careful handling and consideration as to be mentally challenged.

What you’re advocating isn’t helping them, it’s being patronizing as kitten. This is the problem with White Knighting. You may genuinely mean well, but in the end all you’re doing is saying “poor little thing, it needs extra special treatment and over-the-top considerations to succeed.” kitten a bunch of that.

Rainshine.5493:

Obtena.7952:

I’ve already addressed that. The fact that people don’t ask doesn’t relieve anyone of their own responsibility to ensure they team with people that share their values. I know it’s an extra step for people to be nice and tolerant to but … if you want to be helpful to them AND people that share your teaming values, you can take a minute to explain what you are after and why they don’t fit that expectation.

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative. You’re acting like “casuals” require such careful handling and consideration as to be mentally challenged.

What you’re advocating isn’t helping them, it’s being patronizing as kitten. This is the problem with White Knighting. You may genuinely mean well, but in the end all you’re doing is saying “poor little thing, it needs extra special treatment and over-the-top considerations to succeed.” kitten a bunch of that.

This.
If the new player in question doesn’t show a shred of initiative, I wouldn’t want to be in a group with them even if they wore full Ascended Berserker gear with Scholar runes and proper builds.

If you want somebody to help you, you gotta help yourself first. So, no. You didn’t cover that point. Treating new players like they’re completely incapable of doing anything for themselves will not help their progress at all.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

I could be misinterpreting this. But what I took from this post is you think its ok to set requirements for a group. But if someone who doesnt meet those requirements joins your LFG you should take the time to explain exactly what your LFG message means before removing them. Or you are not allowed to kick them at all.

What twisted logic makes you think this?

The logic that tells me people with requirements want better understanding and behaviour from people joining as their teams as PUGs.

I don’t buy into this thinking. From my point of view, people should take responsibility for themselves. Those who post requirements have done so. Those who join despite not meeting those requirements have not done so. Those who join without knowing what those requirements mean have not done so.

If I were to post a group with requirements of any sort — including "LFG anything goes — I would expect those joining to make an effort to understand and abide by the posting. Accordingly, I would look to kick players who insist on meta play in an anything goes group and non-meta players in a meta group.

Rainshine.5493:

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative.

And in the same vein, being a veteran with requirements for teaming gives you the most knowledge and incentive to ensure new people understand those requirements; help them out. Again, take initiative to WHAT? What ingame clues people into these player-established requirements? Nothing. It’s an excuse. It’s your requirements, it’s your responsibility you team people that meet them.

I mean, I think this twist on the conversation is pretty funny: You don’t want gimps joining your teams and your fanatical about the level of performance and values you want from people that team with you …. but you don’t want to do anything to educate or discourage people that have no idea they aren’t meeting your requirements from joining your teams. GG guys. You’re laissez-faire approach to what appears to be a very meaningful part of the game to you leaves me speechless. Expect so much from others because you’re willing to do almost nothing for yourself.

Obtena.7952:

Rainshine.5493:

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative.

And in the same vein, being a veteran with requirements for a team gives you the most knowledge and incentive to help them out.

I mean, I think this twist on the conversation is pretty funny: You don’t want gimps joining your teams, but you don’t want to help them not do that either. GG guys.

Except I’m not “elite” by any definition. There are still dungeons I’ve never even entered exploration mode for, let alone completed. Never been in a fractal, period.

Thing is, I don’t join “experienced only” groups. If it’s not specified, I say as soon as I join that I know my build but not the dungeon. Funny thing is, I’ve only once had a group be like “Yeah, sorry, we’re looking for experience” and they were still polite about it. Otherwise it’s usually “OK, just stack might and stay with the group.” And I’ve never once caught kitten for dying because they already knew I was new.

… Are you honestly serious in what you’re saying? That so-called “casuals” have zero responsibility? I’m having a very hard time believing you’re not just trying (poorly) to play devil’s advocate or something.

EDIT to your edit: I also don’t believe people joining these groups don’t understand why they were kicked. Again, you’re being super patronizing to the casual player. They’re casual, not idiots. If they can manage LFG tool, they can read. What they’re likely hoping for is to fly under the radar and be carried.

Obtena.7952:

Rainshine.5493:

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative.

And in the same vein, being a veteran with requirements for a team gives you the most knowledge and incentive to help them out.

I mean, I think this twist on the conversation is pretty funny: You don’t want gimps joining your teams and your fanatical about the level of performance and values you want from people that team with you …. but you don’t want to do anything to educate or discourage people that have no idea they aren’t meeting your requirements from joining your teams. GG guys. You’re laissez-faire approach to what appears to be a very meaningful part of the game to you leaves me speechless.

We have no obligation to do so. Do you realise how much time we would spend explaining if we did that for every single person? Yes its a polite thing to do. But sometimes people will just want to remove the player and relist as soon as possible. Is that really so unreasonable to you?

It seems you live in fantasy land with your unnatural optimism. But unfortunately the world isnt quite like that. Deal with it. Not everyone is willing to help others and certainly not all the time.

So, I think this brings up an important question: how do people learn fast, efficient runs? I’d assume it’s a combination of knowing the path a bit (having done it inefficiently enough times), watching videos and maybe just jumping in and professing your ignorance with an experienced group and hoping they teach you. That’s pretty well how I started, anyway, except I kept my mouth shut and just watched and followed.

Do people kick players that join and ask to be taught, or that are obviously learning?

Its not hard if you take the initiative. I dont know why people even need to ask “how can i start learning”. Seems pretty obvious to me if you want to learn something new you should do the research and avoid asking unnecessary questions.

synk.8762:

So, I think this brings up an important question: how do people learn fast, efficient runs? I’d assume it’s a combination of knowing the path a bit (having done it inefficiently enough times), watching videos and maybe just jumping in and professing your ignorance with an experienced group and hoping they teach you. That’s pretty well how I started, anyway, except I kept my mouth shut and just watched and followed.

Do people kick players that join and ask to be taught, or that are obviously learning?

“We have no obligation to do so. Do you realise how much time we would spend explaining if we did that for every single person? Yes its a polite thing to do. But sometimes people will just want to remove the player and relist as soon as possible. Is that really so unreasonable to you?

It seems you live in fantasy land with your unnatural optimism. But unfortunately the world isnt quite like that. Deal with it. Not everyone is willing to help others and certainly not all the time."

Yes, they do.

Obtena.7952:

Rainshine.5493:

Being new doesn’t magically mean you have no responsibility to show some initiative.

And in the same vein, being a veteran with requirements for a team gives you the most knowledge and incentive to help them out.

I mean, I think this twist on the conversation is pretty funny: You don’t want gimps joining your teams and your fanatical about the level of performance you want from people that team with you …. but you don’t want to do anything to educate or discourage people that have no idea they aren’t meeting your requirements from joining your teams. GG guys.

No, no. Listen.
I don’t expect every new player to know everything from the very beginning. I just expect them to show some interest, to watch a kitten youtube video of whatever dungeon we’re running before joining the group or at the very least voice that they’re inexperienced and would like to learn.

I’ve met some of those and I’ve given them as much help as I can, ranging from suggestions to gear and I’ve enjoyed doing so because helping someone and seeing them get better at it is satisfying.
Now, what you’re suggesting is that we’re responsible for every single simpleton that joins the groups we create, which is not true. If a man doesn’t care about his own progress, why should anyone else?

I’m not a great player, but I believe that I am decent at the very least. Everything I know so far I’ve learned it from reading guides, watching videos, paying attention to what other players do, asking more informed people or simply figuring it out myself. None of the guilds I’ve been part of ever lent me a hand on that matter (though the people in them have all been great and friendly).
Am I expecting everyone to do each and every thing I just listed? No, of course not, but I’d like them to at least show some interest in becoming an asset for the group.

That kind of apathy makes me sick, and my personal opinion is that if a man doesn’t care about himself enough to put a microscopic, infinitesimal amount of effort into whatever goal he has, then that man deserves to stagnate and be left behind by his peers. This applies to real life as well.

spoj.9672:

We have no obligation to do so.

No you don’t, but it is YOUR best interests to do it anyways.

spoj.9672:

Do you realise how much time we would spend explaining if we did that for every single person?

What’s the alternative? People reading LFG message working out?

spoj.9672:

It seems you live in fantasy land with your unnatural optimism. But unfortunately the world isnt quite like that. Deal with it. Not everyone is willing to help others and certainly not all the time.

That’s pretty ironic statement considering I’m not the one with the problem people playing how they want. It’s not my unnatural optimism that makes me think people will learn others expectations for teaming through mind reading and respect LFG messages.

synk.8762:

So, I think this brings up an important question: how do people learn fast, efficient runs? I’d assume it’s a combination of knowing the path a bit (having done it inefficiently enough times), watching videos and maybe just jumping in and professing your ignorance with an experienced group and hoping they teach you. That’s pretty well how I started, anyway, except I kept my mouth shut and just watched and followed.

Do people kick players that join and ask to be taught, or that are obviously learning?

There are many resources available to players that want to improve.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors-Noob
Oh look, elistist teaching new players with their free time omgwtfbbq.

synk.8762:

Do people kick players that join and ask to be taught, or that are obviously learning?

In my personal experience, rarely if you state up front you’re new. I did put in the effort to get the gear and build together before dungeoning, though. I’m not sure if I’d have gotten the same response without that.

Mac.3872:

Yes, they do.

I was mainly referring to people who join and dont say anything. If they asked for help i would politely decline before kicking them. Or help them.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

We have no obligation to do so.

No you don’t, but it is YOUR best interests to do it anyways.

spoj.9672:

Do you realise how much time we would spend explaining if we did that for every single person?

What’s the alternative? People reading LFG message working out?

spoj.9672:

It seems you live in fantasy land with your unnatural optimism. But unfortunately the world isnt quite like that. Deal with it. Not everyone is willing to help others and certainly not all the time.

That’s pretty ironic statement considering I’m not the one with the problem people playing how they want.

Good to see you can still give good counter arguements. I never said i have a problem with people playing how they want. I have a problem with people who dont respect others requirements and expect special treatment for nothing.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

No, no. Listen.
I don’t expect every new player to know everything from the very beginning. I just expect them to show some interest, to watch a kitten youtube video of whatever dungeon we’re running before joining the group or at the very least voice that they’re inexperienced and would like to learn.

I’ve watched Youtube videos to learn dungeons. There are many. They don’t explain specific requirements for teaming with specific groups. You don’t necessarily learn that watching youtube videos … or even coming to the dungeon forums ironically. That’s just another opportunity you guys are missing. Where is the guide to teaming with speed run people?

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

No, no. Listen.
I don’t expect every new player to know everything from the very beginning. I just expect them to show some interest, to watch a kitten youtube video of whatever dungeon we’re running before joining the group or at the very least voice that they’re inexperienced and would like to learn.

I’ve watched Youtube videos to learn dungeons. There are many. They don’t explain specific requirements for teaming with specific groups. You don’t necessarily learn that watching youtube videos … or even coming to the dungeon forums ironically. That’s just another opportunity you guys are missing. Where is the guide to teaming with speed run people?

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

Obtena.7952:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

No, no. Listen.
I don’t expect every new player to know everything from the very beginning. I just expect them to show some interest, to watch a kitten youtube video of whatever dungeon we’re running before joining the group or at the very least voice that they’re inexperienced and would like to learn.

I’ve watched Youtube videos to learn dungeons. There are many. They don’t explain specific requirements for teaming with specific groups. You don’t necessarily learn that watching youtube videos … or even coming to the dungeon forums ironically. That’s just another opportunity you guys are missing. Where is the guide to teaming with speed run people?

Did you read my whole post or are you just nitpicking?

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

I feel really sorry for you if you cant work it out for yourself.

I did, the rest was just a nice story that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about how you act to people that don’t meet your requirements. What you want me to say? You’re right about apathetic people not learning what you want from them because you’re so helpful?

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

We have no obligation to do so.

No you don’t, but it is YOUR best interests to do it anyways.

Says who, you? Don’t force your opinions on others please.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Do you realise how much time we would spend explaining if we did that for every single person?

What’s the alternative? People reading LFG message working out?

Yes LFG message works in fact. Even considering how many times people join groups w/o bothering to read or follow directions, these LFG with requirements fill just fine.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

It seems you live in fantasy land with your unnatural optimism. But unfortunately the world isnt quite like that. Deal with it. Not everyone is willing to help others and certainly not all the time.

That’s pretty ironic statement considering I’m not the one with the problem people playing how they want.

It isn’t ironic, none of the regulars here have a problem with people playing how they want. They just have a problem with those not that do not read or follow the directions that the LFG states.

You are the one creating problems here. Please quit trying to make an issue where there isn’t any.

Noticing you signature I’m starting to see why you keep making up things stirring up drama. Just because people say and prove that your burning guardian build sucks in meta PvE, doesn’t mean you have to take your angst out on the people that want nothing to do with you.

spoj.9672:

Its not hard if you take the initiative. I dont know why people even need to ask “how can i start learning”. Seems pretty obvious to me if you want to learn something new you should do the research and avoid asking unnecessary questions.

Pretty much this. I figure anyone that wants to move out of inefficient pug runs are aware of the situation and will do the research. Googling ‘gw2 speed run’ will get you 90% of the way there. It’s certainly not hard. Getting gear, build and an idea of what to do is most of it.

I’ll be honest, I’ve kicked players that were obviously not ready to get down and go. Usually when I’ve a limited time frame to play and just want to get some daily dungeons done before I need to log. Or when I’m not in the mood to sit through a wipe or three. Some days it’s fun to be the teacher, and sometimes it’s just irritating. Most of the time I just carry them and try to explain what to do, because kicking and reforming usually takes more time than just 4.5 manning it.

I agree that being upfront about wanting to learn is more attractive than just showing up, if you don’t have a clue about what to do.

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

I feel really sorry for you if you cant work it out for yourself.

Don’t be sorry for me … I’m not the one making teams with gear/build requirements that people ignore.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

=/ I thought this was an actual debate. Well now I feel a bit silly for wasting my time.

Tom Yzf.5872:

Noticing you signature I’m starting to see why you keep making up things stirring up drama. Just because people say and prove that your burning guardian build sucks in meta PvE, doesn’t mean you have to take your angst out on the people that want nothing to do with you.

Oh look, I’ve hooked a big one boys. That burning build link is good bait.

Obtena.7952:

I did, the rest was just a nice story that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about how you act to people that don’t meet your requirements. What you want me to say? You’re right about apathetic people not learning what you want from them because you’re so helpful?

No, I’m right because I don’t promote slobbery.

Rainshine.5493:

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

=/ I thought this was an actual debate. Well now I feel a bit silly for wasting my time.

I don’t think there is a place in the debate to claim that two working brain cells equates to people understanding someone’s requirements for teaming, even after watching some dungeon run videos.

Obtena.7952:

Tom Yzf.5872:

Noticing you signature I’m starting to see why you keep making up things stirring up drama. Just because people say and prove that your burning guardian build sucks in meta PvE, doesn’t mean you have to take your angst out on the people that want nothing to do with you.

Oh look, I’ve hooked a big one boys. That burning build link is good bait.

So you are being a troll. How sad.

Rainshine.5493:

=/ I thought this was an actual debate. Well now I feel a bit silly for wasting my time.

You and me both.

Obtena.7952:

Rainshine.5493:

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Is it so unreasonable to expect people to have 2 working brain cells?

If this subforum is an indicator, I would say yes. Does two working braincells allow someone to learn what requirements are for speed runs from watching a dungeon run video? I’m thinking no.

=/ I thought this was an actual debate. Well now I feel a bit silly for wasting my time.

I don’t think there is a place in the debate to claim that two working brain cells equates to people understanding someone’s requirements for teaming, even after watching some dungeon run videos.

It also takes some brain cells not to take everything literally, or so I’ve heard. <:

Tom Yzf.5872:

Obtena.7952:

Tom Yzf.5872:

Noticing you signature I’m starting to see why you keep making up things stirring up drama. Just because people say and prove that your burning guardian build sucks in meta PvE, doesn’t mean you have to take your angst out on the people that want nothing to do with you.

Oh look, I’ve hooked a big one boys. That burning build link is good bait.

So you are being a troll. How sad.

Perhaps if people stuck to the topic and the discussion at hand instead of making assumptions about someone’s signature, they wouldn’t need to get trolled. My sig isn’t relevant to the topic. Why would you bring it up if you wanted to be part of a serious discussion? Sorry, you are trolling ME.

Funnily enough you were the one who brought things off topic. Anyway thanks for the entertainment.

Obtena.7952:

Tom Yzf.5872:

Obtena.7952:

Tom Yzf.5872:

Noticing you signature I’m starting to see why you keep making up things stirring up drama. Just because people say and prove that your burning guardian build sucks in meta PvE, doesn’t mean you have to take your angst out on the people that want nothing to do with you.

Oh look, I’ve hooked a big one boys. That burning build link is good bait.

So you are being a troll. How sad.

Perhaps if people stuck to the topic and the discussion at hand instead of making assumptions about someone’s signature, they wouldn’t need to get trolled.

Respond to this if you wish, but knowing you are troll makes it much easier to wash my hand of this “discussion,” so this is my last time responding to you.

You make no effort to say anything about what I posted other than to point out that you trolled me. You contribute to the negativity in this subforum while fooling yourself into thinking otherwise. However, by any small chance that you genuinely feel that there is a problem with people reading the LFG, take a deeper look into yourself to understand why you are so misinformed, as there can be no real discussion when you fool yourself into believing whatever you want.

synk.8762:

Pretty much this. I figure anyone that wants to move out of inefficient pug runs are aware of the situation and will do the research. Googling ‘gw2 speed run’ will get you 90% of the way there. It’s certainly not hard. Getting gear, build and an idea of what to do is most of it.

This shows you don’t understand other people’s values. Not everyone is trying to get out of ‘inefficient PUG runs’ so they have no reason to do what you suggest. Again and again … they don’t value what the content and message for those speed run videos have to show them. Why would they watch them?

spoj.9672:

Funnily enough you were the one who brought things off topic. Anyway thanks for the entertainment.

Nothing off topic here. Much of what is being discussed points directly to the question asked by the OP.

So, I guess we’re done here, folks.

It was fun while it lasted.

Obtena.7952:

This shows you don’t understand other people’s values. Not everyone is trying to get out of ‘inefficient PUG runs’ so they have no reason to do what you suggest. Again and again … they don’t value what the content and message for those speed run videos have to show them. Why would they watch them?

If anything, it shows I don’t care about their values. That’s my right, regardless of how you feel about it. Don’t mistake my apathy for ignorance.

Regardless, I was talking about people that want to learn to run in the ‘zerk 80 fast’ crowd, but aren’t there. The question is how they move from one segment of the population to the other. I was simply agreeing with Spoj that doing the research before hand, meaning watching videos and reading guides, is the best way I see to do that.

I don’t labor under the impression that most players want to learn to speed run, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Obtena, personally the reason I don’t just jump out and start teaching when not asked is because I’ve had my head bitten off for trying to do that. “ya’ll know you can do this one without getting agro or conditions if you just stick to the wall” in reference to Husk. Then get yelled at for being a noob…

Now I knew better going into this game, this games environment isn’t much different than ones in the past but either way I sometimes try to teach people tricks if i’m in the mood. But, I’ve found that usually if people don’t ask, they don’t want to hear it. And if people do want to actively learn, they’re going to ask questions. So I’ll just help if someone asks a question, keep searching for more stuff myself by asking those better than I am, and just try to avoid the people who annoy me.

There is plenty of help available for a new player if he simply tries to find it. And, I think most of those players will know to not join “experienced” groups if they don’t fit that bill.

Obtena, I’m not sure if I should have been surprised, but I know I’ve had hopes you’d actually want to take part of a debate. You brought no argument to the table. Not a single argument to boot. You repeat the same explanations (not arguments, since they’re not) which have been proved wrong time and again.

Let’s start with the 3 arguments you keep ignoring, as they’re going nowhere. Links: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273377 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-are-elitists-viewed-as-the-evil-ones/page/5#post4273378

Those arguments prove the blame lies with the “casuals” (as you call them) and human nature. Jerks are also to blame, but they belong to no specific crowd in particular.

You keep saying it’s in our best interest to teach, but not only you haven’t proved why, you ignored the fact some of the so called “elitists” do. By doing that, they go out of their way because they’d be perfectly fine even if they didn’t, and saying they wouldn’t only means you respect different values. Respecting different values isn’t a reason to ask another person to follow suit. Not when they’re not universal, and they’re not.

We’ve already established that:

• “Casuals” are the ones who often try to get into parties that might not want them, and not vice versa

• The so called “elitists” go out of their way when helping.

• Many “Casuals” don’t even bother asking what a LFG sign means, much less going out of their way by doing any kind of homework like watching videos, reading, etc. (or even just ask where to find those materials).

So basically you’re asking people to go of their way to help those who won’t even ask what a LFG sign means. Seeing as your only reason for asking this is the fact you respect different values, we’re left with one course of action: Rejecting your explanation. Your respect for different values is neither sound logic or evidence so it’s not an argument.

As usual, you’ll ignore this argument, as it’s not the first time it was presented in this thread.

As for your attitude, which included trolling (using your own words here), you might want to take a look here:

Obtena.7952:

the rest was just a nice story that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about how you act to people that don’t meet your requirements. What you want me to say? You’re right about apathetic people not learning what you want from them because you’re so helpful?

This quote summed it all up nicely. You’re judging others for respecting different (also more universal, mind you) values. You’re openly saying it’s ok to disrespect other people’s right to play with like minded players, as proved here and previously too (you didn’t even reply). Now you’re also asking for people to go out of their way…

Conclusion: You keep harming the “casuals”. You’re doing them a major disservice. The so called “elitists” are presented with well made arguments proving the fault lies not with them but with jerks, human nature, and the “casuals”. You promote disrespect to different values, which is also demonstrated when you’re judging them left and right. After all that, you’ve not a single argument to boot.

Obtena, if you really (honestly) care about “casuals”, stop it right now and bring a real argument to support them. You only push the other side away from going out of their way to help. This is the current status, and you’re asking for a change, not the other side.

So what will it be? Will you prove you actually care about “casuals” or will you prove you’re only here to try to cause drama?

Darius.4710:

-wall o thoughtful text-

Stop wasting your time. You’re just feeding antisocial behavior.

When you call the mods, and when outsiders read this thread, you want a crystal clear proof the other side was just trolling.

Next time, when a new thread like this one pops, up you could just link to the arguments made here. If they’re ignored you can just call the mods and/or ignore the thread. After all, someone interested in a debate will prove it, and trolls will reveal their true nature this way.

Darius.4710:

When you call the mods, and when outsiders read this thread, you want a crystal clear proof the other side was just trolling.

Next time, when a new thread like this one pops, up you could just link to the arguments made here. If they’re ignored you can just call the mods and/or ignore the thread. After all, someone interested in a debate will prove it, and trolls will reveal their true nature this way.

You, I like you. I like reading and witnessing the growth of an argument that isn’t supported by thin air. It’s a rare thing to behold.

I must agree, greatly written.

Similar responses were already presented in a few guardian forum threads, geniously featuring SilentStorm. Afterall that didn’t stop them from being… erm, you know what and lurking around here, waiting for the next ocassion to start the next ‘I don’t need to present arguments’ war.

Let’s just hope for the best.

I see no reason to protect the so called “casuals” as some people here tend to do. I myself am not playing the game from the very beginning, I joined it way later after those “elitists” figued out best ways to deal with the game content.
Guess what? I decided not to be a fool who just ruins the game for those, who took their time to learn it, I instead visited the forums regularly to hear other people’s opinions, watched youtube guides for encouters I was planning to face and read many web pages like gw2dungeons. Now I can proudly say I am one of those evil elitists, who can play the game properly and expects others to do so. I hurt no one along the way, I practised everything alone many times and joined experienced players only after I was sure of myself.
Being a good, experienced player and being a non-experienced newbie is NOT a magically enclosed loop, that doesn’t allow you to move forward. It’s all about people’s approach. If you decide to take the road of selfishly ruining my game experience and expectancy of being carried just because I worked hard to learn the proper strategies, I am sorry, get the hell out of my group. Either learn the stuff first, or do it with people like you, who are new and want to figure it out for themselves.

OP: You have a HUUUUUGE +1 for this thread. Let the world know that we, the “elitists”, also have right to have fun in the game. And our way of having fun is simply doing dungeons quickly, not spending an hour fighting a single boss and then another hour explaining the encounter to “the casuals”. And then again. And again. Every single day. …

//Edit: Now that I have read a few more comments, I see that I may have been reacting to stuff that has already been sorted out. Anyway, take this only as an expression of my opinion and my experience with gw2 elitism. Peace.

I was a phiw casual once. I tried to explain my ways, but then I thought, if you can’t beat em, join em. then i became a phiw on a different level. i play the meta builds, and i like it now. i find it much more enjoyable. so i still play how i want, i just do it so it is beneficial to everyone in my party