OP asking a fun question, and people going serious mode.
Other than healing turret saving me 500 billion times, one time I had thrown down a supply drop on a warrior as I was getting downed. The warrior also went down. Must not have been a very smart warrior, but the flame turret that came with the supply drop was the only reason I won that downed-fight and rallied.
This was a while ago, so I was pretty bad as well.
But doesn’t matter; got rally.
I’m not bored, per say. I mean, dungeons are pretty static, but I’ve been occupying myself with PvP and generally messing about. But you got it right in that we need something to shake up dungeon running a bit.
I just want to make the main dungeons more challenging. Arah is challenging already, but the most hardcore players might enjoy the extra challenge.
This would have its own achievements, as well as a title. Maybe something like “Thrill Seeker” or something.
For those of you that have played Gears of War: Judgement, y’know how at the beginning of every section there is a red gear on the wall that lets you increase the difficulty of that section temporarily, but giving you increased points?
What if we had something similar in this game? Several interactable objects in each path. They introduce new mechanics, but increase the gold reward at the end of the dungeon. Also, during a modified dungeon section, all players get a massive magic and gold find buff.
Like, take a section of CoF P2. Y’know the room where Magg has to plant the explosive, and you have to defend him against assassins? Before that room you can find an empty room that isn’t being used at all. Have a statue in that room, and interacting it comes up with the message:
“Flame Legion high command has been tipped off about Magg’s volatile Magmacyte explosive, and assassins have been re-equipped to deal with this new threat.
Flame Legion Assassins use explosive knives that will one-hit kill Magg. Flame Legion Assassins now explode when killed, damaging players and leaving a hostile fire field for 3 seconds.
+100% magic and gold find until bomb explodes. +50 silver reward bonus added at end of path."
Then players vote on whether they want to do it or not.
Another one: In AC path 3, add an icon on the wall in the room just after you kill the last graveling mound:
“Days of fighting with ghosts have lead to Colossus Rumblus adapting to new threats. Its hide now secretes deadly poisonous gases and fluids.
Colossus Rumblus now has a deadly poison field that extends around him for 500 units. Melee attacks against Colossus Rumblus will now deal damage to the player and poison them."
Each path would have several of these. In my idea, some of them would involve anti-stacking and exploit mechanisms, but be completely optional. This way, groups of casual or less skillful players can do dungeons in the same manner as before, but groups of experienced players can increase the difficulty and gain more rewards.
Lets do it for an entire dungeon now. Say for CoF P1:
1st challenge: right at the start, drawing on a wall. Slave Driver now calls Flame Legion Incinerators to help him during the fight.
2nd challenge: In the acolyte room. In the back on one of the platforms. A fire barrier appears around the execution altar. Prevents players from running away and hiding until the acolytes respawn.
3rd challenge: After the braziers are lit, in the room with the chest, on the wall. Crystals that drop from the ceiling around the effigy now leave fire fields for 5 seconds.
I think +50 silver is a bit generous, given that doing all of these means +1.5 gold. So maybe +25s or something at the end.
Anyway, just an idea. Criticisms ahoy.
A mod hasn’t moved this post yet because this is an obviously important issue to many people and people are still raising opinions on it. The topic of discussion has NOT deviated from the original post.
Hurr.
I agree and the fact that it has remained random for so long is somewhat irritating.
However, I can’t accept having a 100% copy of another class’s elite. Hence my opinion that a rework is necessary.
I guess elixir C is a steroid then.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about elixir S though. This topic is about elixir X, and what you said is hard to read.
I would disagree that elixirs are magically based technology (lore-wise, it was never said anywhere that they were). They are based on alchemy, if the trait-line is any indication. And while, historically, alchemy wasn’t truly scientific in the way we define it today, it is far more CHEMICAL than it is magical. Part of the engineer’s flavour (for me) is that they don’t use magical elements in their kits. And all elixirs, in regards to video game terminology, are what we call “steroids” in that they’re all temporary buff-related effects. Elixir C can be considered an exception since it only removes conditions. Thematically speaking in regards to THIS perspective, while rampage fits, tornado doesn’t.
It doesn’t change the fact that Anet got incredibly lazy here and gave us an elite with not even a shred of uniqueness or creativity. Plagiarized from warrior and elementalist. I would consider anything an improvement over what we have now, so long as it has at least a little bit of originality.
Smaller skins as well.
I wouldn’t mind something electrical or steampunky, just small so it doesn’t look so obtuse on my armor.
Regardless of if you’d prefer the supply crate, a niche skill which is a copy of two other professions skills shouldn’t really have to exist.
Anet probably didn’t intend to be so obviously lazy with the design (sounds insulting, but they have done some great changes since then), but it still stands that its a sore memory of when the engineer class was just a rushed mess as it was at launch. Elixir X is effective in one scenario, zerging in WvW and even then you’d want the tornado 9/10 over rampage.
While Anet has been doing some great things for the engineer class, elixir X remains as a slap in the face to the engineer playerbase. It is obvious when you look at the state of the engineer on release that the class was rushed and incomplete. Arguably, the class can still be considered by some as incomplete (see: turret bugs). However, the reason why elixir X is a slap in the face is because it is so obviously a cop-out. It gives a 50% chance of getting either the warrior elite skill Rampage, or the elementalist elite skill Tornado. While these skills may have their uses (and are very effective when applied correctly), both the RNG nature and the fact that its two skills COPIED FROM OTHER PROFESSIONS is kind of irritating.
Regardless of whether people find this skill useful or not, I think Elixir X needs to be changed to something that is unique to the engineer class.
My suggestion is simple. If you are using elixirs, chances are you’re using them for the buffs and likely (though not always) for HGH might stacking or CF401 condition removal. If you’re using them for the buffs, then you probably DON’T want the elixir to remove your ability to use weapon skills, place turrets, use gadgets or swap with other kits that you might have on your utility bar. So my suggestion is to make Elixir X like Signet of Rage or Rampage as One. Some people might be thinking now that I’m basically saying that Elixir X should change from copying one skill to copying another. Signet of Rage and Rampage as One are similar in that they both give might and fury. The difference is that SoR gives swiftness as a third buff, and RaO gives stability AND swiftness as a third and fourth buff. My suggestion for Elixir X is that it gives 3 stacks of might (two less than warrior, to account for engineers that use HGH), 40s of fury and 30s of protection or retaliation. Give it a 70 second CD. Reasoning for this change is that:
1) It’s simpler to apply than remodeling some other effect for the engineer. Maybe the visual effect can be the same as what Signet of Rage has.
2) Engineers lack a good PvE elite. Supply Crate is amazing in PvP and WvW scenarios, and mortar is pretty decent in some zerging situations. Heck, even Nike from DnT runs a norn racial elite instead of supply crate on his engineer. My solution is also decent in PvP/WvW when applied with HGH or CF401.
3) It is inline with the flavour of elixirs, which is that elixirs are basically steroids.
Anyway, I know for a fact that Elixir X needs some type of change. I don’t know if everyone likes my solution, though. It’s an open discussion.
For those of you who actually like the current state of Elixir X, please leave your opinions as to why. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to keep the current RNG, niche-appropriate iteration, but I respect all opinions.
I was just wondering if there has been a dev update regarding whether or not this issue is going to be fixed?
In its current state, when the Charrzooka is holstered it clips through the ground on even terrain. My suggestion is to move the “fulcrum” point (the part on the rifle that is anchored onto the center of the character’s back) down the barrel in the same fashion as The Hunter. If you notice on The Hunter, the stock of the rifle is farther over the shoulder than any of the other rifles because the “fulcrum” is a little further down.
It’s a minor issue, but I think it would make the weapon a lot more pleasing to carry around.
I’m not sure on all traits yet, but for sure I’m getting leg specialist and mobile strikes.
I want to go for high mobility in at least one weapon set. Probably not greatsword though, because while I enjoy the mobility, 100blades is just too important, and I hate that skill.
Main-hand sword is definitely one of the sets, with warhorn. Even though it doesn’t scale as well with power as the axe, it seems like it’s still a strong weapon for power builds. For the second set, I would probably go hammer or axe+shield. I think for roaming it would be better to go for higher mobile damage (axe) or more CC (hammer).
If I go zerker in zergs, I would definitely go for a sniper build. Retraiting is pretty inexpensive.
Well, at least I have a full set of berserker’s gear already. At least if I want to roam then, I can use my PvE gear in WvW.
I could go knight’s with cavalier’s trinkets though…
Y’know, I was thinking of using that. Then use mending as the heal skill. And warhorn with that trait that lets you turn one condition into a boon using it.
Seems like it would be a decent build for roaming.
I’m looking to run a Warrior for WvW. I know they aren’t great, but I’m hoping that they’ll be buffed into the bloodthristy, close-ranged threat that they’re supposed to be one day.
I only have a full zerkers set, which I know is god awful for anyone but mesmers and thieves in WvW.
Rampager would offer the best DPS for a p/p condition build, but it is pretty much the condition damage version of berserkers, meaning full glass cannon.
Since p/p engineers often skirt close to melee ranges of other professions, many people prefer some survivability stats.
At least, that’s my take on it.
That’s awesome.
It will probably be bugfixed/nerfed in March, still.
In PvE, grenade spamming is still decent, albiet no where near warriors, so we’re kind of left out of the speed run parties…guess that means unviable.
How exactly this change in kit refinement made 100nade in pve worse? Cooldown on grenade kit is same, 20s.
Not talking about 100nades. Talking about going pure grenade spammer. Like, 30 explosives, 30 alchemy, 10 tools/firearms/inventions HGH build, or whatever people run when they want to hit 2345-F1-111111111111111.
I didn’t know people used 100nades in PvE. It looks kind of lackluster in dungeons when you can only fire it off every 20 seconds.
I was just making the point that there are still some working builds that didn’t rely on kit refinement, that people have success with.
Something like backdraft is actually what the flamethrower needs.
I mean, flame legion igniters and godforged hellstorms have a pull skill. Why the hell not give engineers that skill as well?
On top of that, why not give engineers the damage of godforged hellstorms on the flamethrower as well?
Teldo has said that his condition burst build still trumphs in PvP.
In PvE, grenade spamming is still decent, albiet no where near warriors, so we’re kind of left out of the speed run parties…guess that means unviable.
In WvW we have TANKCAT, which is stronger now with the prybuff. Grenade spamming…again. Also, Maskaganda (sp?) has done a nice show of pistol/pistol roaming condition builds.
Even outside of kit refinement, I’m very sketchy as to what Anet wants kits (or the engineer as a whole) to be able to do. So I’m building towards a condi-pistol build for WvW.
We have SOME viability, but not much to really stand out, except fun tricks and some gimmicks.
I hated throwing elixirs.
BUT IT’S A GREAT TIME TO DRINK IT!
Changing FT to do more burning than direct damage would destroy our dps in groups, events and pvp where other players are constantly applying burning to the enemies.
The kit is really not about damage here. It’s about the knockdowns and knock backs. Aka, holding a point.
The flamethrower has one knockback and no knockdowns as of yet, though. And three damage-dealing skills. And blind, which some can consider a soft-CC.
I mean, it’s a pretty good control option to have to knock people back (better than PBR?), and yeah it’s great for point control, but logically (based on where the traits are located) it seems that Anet intended for it to be a damage weapon that you should be able to specialize in. It’s also more intuitive to consider it as such. The numbers just suck very very hard.
I think Anet should make it be the “main” close-range damage kit, though. I can’t count the amount of engineers that are attracted to being a pyromaniac vanguard of destruction – burning through people. But they find out that it’s better at control. Then switch to grenades or another profession.
Flamethrower is pretty lackluster. It works just enough for standard pve. Consider the bomb kit. It’s easy to use, and is super powerful at low levels. Grenade kit also works. I leveled using bomb/grenade kit + elixer B and U. Grenade kit becomes very good when you put 30 in explosives for the grenadier trait. Even after the nerfs, it’s solid enough for nondungeon pve.
For a panic button, elixer S or R. Elixer S is a get out of jail free card, and elixer R is free bail when you do get in jail with the toolbelt skill.
Only an engineer can set everything in the room on fire and not damage a thing.
The engineer’s skillset is fun to use even when nerfed. All the CC allows for you to do some pretty off-the-walls unexpected stuff and get away from it. I don’t think any other class can have the same feeling.
This is why I empathize heavily for rangers. They’re in a pretty bad state, AND their skills don’t seem as fun to use (in a nerfed state) as the engineer’s are.
Still, I’d like more DPS-focused builds for the engineer (that can compete with other classes) that don’t revolve around spamming grenades. Once they fix the bugs and apply the buffs to allow for that, I probably will not play any other profession.
Is that the flamethrower that has the jump-shot that’s better than our rifle jump-shot?
My charr engineer is currently playing with a ball of yarn. With all the nerfs though, I think the yarn is winning…
I tried warrior, got one to 80. It is easy modo for PvE content.
Also catching up on games that I just got off steam.
Other than that, life’s been pretty good man. Thanks for asking.
I keep trying to go back to flamethrower, in hopes that I was just ignorant of some obvious build to make it viable, only to find myself disappointed by the unreliable damage and impossibility to hit targets during PvP.
What adds salt to the wound is the fact that my Elixir gun does slightly more damage than the FT. Just auto attackign with the Elixir gun will constantly stack a bleed on my target that just gets worst and worst the longer I shoot, then add in the chem spray to layer even more debuffs…………the FT is just garbage when a debuffing / healing gun is doing greater damage numbers than it!!
Why do you guys compare everything in terms of numbers? You forget that the FT is aoe, has a aoe interupt, and a aoe blind.
Engineer does AoE with bombs, grenades and coated pistols as well. They clear much better than the FT does, as well.
I don’t know about other people, but if I wanted just the control aspects of flamethrower, then I can spec into a great bunker builds without putting 30 points into firearms, and still make use of the AoE interrupt and the AoE blind from the flamethrower (even the AoE aspect of 1+2 is outclassed by other options). I don’t even NEED the flamethrower for that, either.
My problem is that, if I spec 30 points down the firearms line, I expect a decent return on that investment, which is the ability to use the flamethrower as my primary weapon for damage. When you look at the applicable traits for optimizing the flamethrower, it seems to be that this was an intended path by Anet. Because of how much you have to invest to optimize the flamethrower (might stacking runes, 30 points in firearms), I expect it to be competitively significant in terms of damage.
You basically said elixir gun is better than the flamethrower because it does more damage, but elixir gun for the most part is single target.
Wait…what? Explain that one again?
Nothing really wrong with scaling off both. focus on one, and the other is a bonus. might gives power and cond. works great for firearms, given its prec. anyway.
Yeah…but…I don’t know…
….I just want to see the world burn…
The flamethrower also needs its damage scaling improved. Even with 25 might stack build, the damage is laughable relative to what other professions can do with AoE setups.
I think it’s good as it is. It’s not meant to be burst, with 25 might stacks you melt people with sustained condition damage. Everyone you spam flame jet on basically has 5 stacks of vulnerability and constant burn and 7-10 stacks of bleed on them. That hurts alot when you have 25 stacks of might. Not to mention your flamethrower direct damage is already doing around 2k damage every time the jet finishes.
I don’t melt PEOPLE. PEOPLE will kite a flamer about if they have the wits about them, forcing you to switch out to tool kit or an immobilize, effectively making you drop your juggernaut trait until you can close the gap.
But I don’t think the damage comes close to acceptable, in relation to what other professions do, AoE DPS wise. I also don’t see it as acceptable that p/p engineers can out-DPS it, even though Anet said that the damage and utility in our kits should result in weaker main hand weapons. Given that juggernaut is a GRANDMASTER trait, I expect that if I sacrifice that 30 points to be proficient in using the flamethrower to its maximum capability, then I should be able to compete at a similar level as other classes (again, as per Anet’s statements). But I can’t. With the flamethrower, I can blind people in melee, and knock them back with the air blast. But I can’t ever come close enough to the damage I can put out even using GRENADES after the 30% damage nerf. Using the flamethrower makes me feel like a mule. I DON’T feel like Hank Scorpio.
But yeah, the flamethrower can deal a decent amount of damage when looked at on its own. But relative to what other builds can do, (let alone other professions) it is awful. The only reason to use it is for 3+4 (fire field)+5 (basically just control), or because it looks very very cool. If people want to still use it, that’s fine with me. It’s fun to see, and meets the requirements of being USEABLE. And I embrace build diversity in engineers. But given what I see in game, and what I see based on math done by other members of that community, I can’t honestly say that the damage portion of the flamethrower is anywhere near a decent level to compete in AoE DPS.
Anet could start by stating whether they want the flamethrower to scale with power or condition damage. So far, people have been saying that it scales far better with power, which is a little bit unintuitive, if you ask me.
The flamethrower also needs its damage scaling improved. Even with 25 might stack build, the damage is laughable relative to what other professions can do with AoE setups.
There’s a bug compilation thread at the top of the subsection that you could take a gander at.
We’ll, you’ve showed me that flamethrowers can deal a respectable amount of damage; perhaps all they really need then is bug fixes. Not really sure. What armor and accessory pieces do you run for that? I’m probably going to mix berserkers head and gloves, knight’s chest, soldiers legs and boots. All berserkers accessories. The burn on the last attack seems pretty meh, so I thought full power + tank would be better than investing in any condition damage. Although I’d rather run full soldiers, so I can use TANKCAT in WvW, but it seems like FT damage would take a huge hit.
Also, if the question is: from a purely DPS perspective, can flamethrower achieve equal damage to grenades, then you can’t say “IMO I proved the naysayers wrong”. It’s empirical, so regardless of opinions, you are either right or wrong. The person in that thread wants a full-on DPS flamer build. To prove your point to the fullest extent, you’d need to either show the math, or test damage done on a timescale with an engineer build optimized for grenade damage, and another optimized for flamethrower damage. Done on the same enemy. I’m pretty sure one popular member in the engineer subforum did do the math to show why grenades are the superior damage choice.
Though, I don’t think that question matters. Flamethrower skills and traits were meant for tanking, utility and being in the vanguard. Grenades were meant for long range, artillery-style damage. I just want tweaks so that front-line flamethrower build is viable as that sort of “charge in headstrong” offense type. So I guess that mostly revolves around Anet fixing those stupid FT bugs.
The pry-bar, shield and pull offers a lot of utility. Especially the pull, with its massive range. I hear engineers love it in WvW.
The first two skills aren’t that great right now.
Grenades are the best build for DPS. Flamethrowers don’t come close, but they let you be very tanky, and offer more utility.
Flamethrowers are in dire need of buffing and bug fixing. Kind of sad, they give traits to become a grenade and flamer build, but they pigeon-hole us into grenades for damage.
I’m making a flametank anyway, because they WILL be buffed one day. It’s pretty much required if Anet wants to improve this class. Also, using grenades hurts my fingers now. It’s a really sloppy set up. Yes, you will still be useful. Pack shield+pistol or rifle, flamethrower, bomb kit, whatever other utility skill you want and supply crate. The control you provide in PvE is awesome.
Looked through the engineer subforum, and the only official post I found was about kit autoattacks. The rest were mods closing threads. Nor can I find anything anywhere else. Citation needed regarding Anet’s answers about stats on kits.
Regardless of kit buffs, they have to give the engineer fixes for the important bugs that have been plaguing the class since release. The fact that they released this update, and still haven’t fixed the flamethrower bugs, is very disappointing to see.
Wow, after all this, that is the only official response in this section.
This is completely bullkitten, and Anet knows it. The ranger subforum got a response, why not this one?
I’m really disappointed that there hasn’t been an official response. Engineers are continually shafted. We need the important bugs fixed, the ones the community has been annoyed with for so long, like the flamethrower targeting.
I don’t think they ever said it was fixed. This is one of the most vexing issues. Such a well-known issue with engineers, and they still haven’t fixed it.
Great for WvW engineers. But flamethrowers are still horribly bugged, and our condition builds are inferior to grenades in damage. So we still have terrible build diversity.