Guild Wars 2

= WELLS =

= SIGNETS =

= CORRUPTIONS =

= MINIONS =

= SPECTRAL CONTINUED =

= SPECTRAL =

= HEALING SKILLS =

= DEATH SHROUD =

= DEATH SHROUD (UNDERWATER) =

= DEATHLY FERVOR (F2 while in Death Shroud; acquire more skills by investing into traits) =

= STAFF =

= WARHORN OFF-HAND =

= SPEAR =

= FOCUS OFF-HAND =

= DAGGER OFF-HAND =

= SCEPTER MAIN-HAND =

= AXE MAIN-HAND =

= DAGGER MAIN-HAND =

= NEW NECROMANCER-SPECIFIC MECHANIC CHANGES =
[Death Shroud]

• The death shroud bar now displays a real-time percentage ticker in addition to the raw number that displays the total amount of effective HP in your death shroud reserves.
• Death shroud HP is now capped at 15,000 at level 80 and scales appropriately with level; this number no longer scales with vitality.
• Necromancers now always spawn with/enter a map with 20% maximum life force (3000 HP). When out of combat, life force will adjust back to 20% of its maximum level by degenerating or regenerating to that level at the speed of out-of-combat health regeneration.
• Baseline death shroud life force decay reduced from 4% max/s to 2% max/s.
• Life force threshold which allows the activation of death shroud reduced from 10% to 5%.

= NEW NECROMANCER CLASS SKILLS =
[Deathly Fervor] (F2 while in death shroud)
Cast-time: 0; Recharge: 10 s

• Gain new, powerful death shroud abilities; your shroud decays at an increased rate. This skill cannot be activated if you are not above the life force threshold.
• Life force threshold: 50%
• Duration: 5 s
• Deathly Fervor life force decay: 15%
• Interval: 1 s
  • This skill will stay in effect even if the player passes back below the life force threshold required to unlock the skill for activation.
  • While under the effects of deathly fervor, the player has a “necromancer green” colored effect beneath their feet similar to the passive effect light from the Guardian [Signet of Courage].

Here’s a holistically conceived design for Necromancer which gives it not only a lot of sustainability that isn’t necessarily just through a means of having a high HP pool, but also multiple layers of activity and combat options. Everything has been taken into account under the context of fair skill cues relative to their effects, side-grades/trade-offs which promote unique play-styles, risk/reward investment into skill usage, player-directed mobility, and manual aiming options.

NOTES

• I’m aware that balanced activation times and cues are underpowered. As I have said, this redesign was made under the context of the ideas listed above. The rest of the game could adapt, but I doubt that it will. Most people just expect the button mash, target-dependent, reactive gameplay that exists now—which is strange given that some aspects of a couple specializations almost seem to try to go against that grain to an extent when it comes to active abilities.
• I’m aware that the signets do not have passive effects.
• I’m aware that there are no minor traits. Playstyle and ability choice is best left entirely to the players, not forcibly tacked on to any extent for the sake of flavor. Minor traits make sense within the scope of the elite specializations in how those trait lines are taken specifically in order to change and unlock certain skills, but the rest of the minor traits, with proper conceptual design, could easily be either dropped entirely without any real consequence or folded into current traits.
• “Haste” was the keyword that I used for “Super Speed” because the latter is just so unwieldy and goofy to say.
• If you want to know about the lack of swiftness in the makeover, you can read https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-does-swiftness-exist/first for my thoughts on the lack of purpose and real functionality that swiftness provides. Swiftness could otherwise very easily just be sprinkled back into the various traits and skills which it used to inhabit (See how influential and critical that swiftness is to GW2 given how I can just slot it in and out with no real gameplay disturbance or problem?). The chain for [Locust Swarm] would stay, though; that’s there just to make sure a player doesn’t accidentally clip an ambient target and unintentionally trap themselves in combat speed. If you were really curious, I could even tell you where all the swiftness used to be (new skill reworks, traits and all).

RoffleMyWaffles.1295:

all I can say is this game is INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY EASY and BORING!

You’re level 9, and the starter zones are baseline very easy and forgiving. Not to mention that most overworld enemies in general don’t have a lot of health, so you might be burning through this without that much effort just by that alone (especially if you’re spamming conditions). That said, it doesn’t get terribly much better. Dungeons, fractals and the Silverwastes are the effective “end-game” content for PvE, and the biggest challenge in those game modes is mostly just trying not to goof up your simple rotation through the boss’ unnecessarily high HP pool. PvE NPCs are poorly equipped to fight players (especially 5 or more of them at once), so most bosses end up either having obscene amounts of health and/or several invulnerability periods and gimmick stages which players have to address somehow on an encounter-by-encounter basis. It’s not an efficient design when every “end-game” encounter isn’t unique in its terrain, boss attack patterns or effective player skill set-ups, but rather in the questions of either “How do we make it stop being invulnerable for this one?” or “How long do we wait until we can hit it again?”

The only boss that really breaks this sort of mold is the Molten Duo (one of the fractal end bosses), but that’s only because that boss is technically two dangerous enemies at once. That sort of design lets the player focus one while still being under dangerous fire from another, but anet hasn’t yet learned that this is actually quite possibly the most effective strategy when it comes to making engaging end-game bosses in GW2. They would rather continue to have players press 1 on a single target for 5-10 minutes.

Thaddeus.4891:

Fury is perfect like it is with the current system.

And my point was that the current system is passive and reactive in every way. It could stand to be much more active and promote more risk/reward if actually activating an offensive ability posed any sort of threat to the player or provided any sort of proper readability/timing for an opponent. As it stands now, the game is incredibly easy and forgiving for everyone, which is why combat is sustained by being invulnerable, lots of HP and passive/near-instant healing/healing done while under the effects of stability or some other form of invulnerability instead of good positioning or timing. If you want a non-random fury, the former aspects of GW2 combat need to be greatly culled.

Fury

• Critical Chance increased by 100%; ferocity increased by 150; stacks intensity.
  • Stacks in intensity only up to 10 times.
  • Stack consumption functions identically to Thief venoms (stacks don’t increase critical chance or ferocity, but rather give the player more attacks with fury’s baseline buffs to those attributes).

Fury has functioned the way it does now (despite being so bland) mainly because attacks in GW2 happen so rapidly that combat mostly just slurs together in a chain of passive and (often instant) reactive skill usage. If combat was more readable, and attacks required more investment (cued animations and offensive, higher-damage cast-times kept to around 0.75/1 second), fury would compliment an already high base critical damage while also rewarding a player for timed usage and/or support application within a time window which actually carried with it some risk (there’s nothing typically at risk when skills activate instantly or even within 0.5 seconds unless you really are within a blob of 6+ total attacking players and instant/passive skills/triggers are flying off the handle at every moment). Slow down and add proper cues to lethal outgoing direct damage, and then fury can lose its randomness while also gaining a sense of proper risk/reward with its usage instead of it just being another flat buff with a duration which lasts all of combat because why not.

Weakness

• Endurance regeneration reduced by 50%; outgoing damage reduced by 33%; stacks duration.
  • Stacks in duration only up to 3 times.

Having a consistent baseline reduction to damage allows players on both sides of weakness (both attacker and the defensive applicant) to know with much more certainty how much damage is going to be dealt in the next few seconds. In order to compensate for a baseline outgoing damage reduction, weakness durations across the board could stand a slight reduction (nothing above 5 seconds at the very most; typical duration around 3 seconds), and weakness sources could maybe be culled and kept to only a few specific classes and skills in order to give it a distinct potential usage and source on the battlefield.

Mitch.4781:

Staff theif??? Really? Seems a missed opportunity. Thief has no range

Thief has plenty of range. F1 is range. S/x2 and D/P3 is range. Infiltrator’s Signet is range. Everyone uses those. Thief also evades and blinds while attacking in melee.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

This is indicative of a larger problem. In an attempt to let every class do everything and let you play what you want to play as any class, the game was created (and has become even more) homogenized.

You have to realize that given how little there is to do in GW2 (heal—mostly just one’s self; damage; be invulnerable; CC), this game could have easily gotten along with a mere 3 classes at launch if we really wanted to give them distinct, fair abilities which defined particular play-styles and matched a functional flavor. Everyone already does the same thing and it’s been this way since launch; it’s only just gotten worse over time. Opportunity cost and distinction between classes are out of whack, leading to passive combat which is just a quick exchange of simultaneous (instant) opening damage and invulnerability periods regardless of which class one plays. Above all of this, WASD has never had a strong influence on combat in general.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-does-swiftness-exist/page/3#post5412802

You’re just helping prove my point. I effectively already talked about this and how its ease of access might as well just make speed boosts baseline since actual WASD movement has very little sway in combat dominated by extended invulnerability periods, ranged, rapid-travel/instant damage, and instant teleports. Movement in gw2 is incredibly sluggish to begin with, and tacking on a +33% movement speed modifier doesn’t have any substantial impact on combat outside of a few very niche situations (which typically can be negated by a weapon swap or single skill use anyway). If it’s only real usage is overworld travel with little impact on combat, why not just make it all baseline and dedicate those traits and skills to something more interesting (not that there’s really much else to which those empty slots can be dedicated in this game)?

We don’t need a boost to swiftness. Just make 133% movement speed baseline, and let small bursts of super speed take over because its effects are still felt dramatically in combat situations.

Time for a visual aid. This is a quick glimpse of the game that you already play with tangential commentary on the feeble impact of swiftness in combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wuXfhPNRlg

Now, as I’ve said before, swiftness isn’t that entirely useful in most combat situations. The game has mutated in a way which promotes the use of invulnerability periods and scripted movement in order to simultaneously accelerate and stall out combat rather than using the base movement controls available to a player. When combat is at a level which such things don’t need to define combat (such as PvE or WvW outside of frontline zerg players—and in the case of the latter, those guys have the zerg to provide them with swiftness), it’s very easy to sacrifice those abilities for swiftness. Nobody is going to care that you’re a mesmer running centaur runes while doing a dungeon, unless they’re really, really bent on getting some irrelevant speed run time (in which case, that guy would probably be in a group specifically designed to have someone provide swiftness for the group so that the players who don’t have it would just take whatever they need to anyway, thus negating the players’ need to sacrifice anything at all for an otherwise irrelevant, mild movement speed buff). In PvP, the maps and points are small enough that non-permanent swiftness, teleports and movement abilities will zip a player from place to place with no trouble; and the video demonstrates how worthless swiftness is in most combat anyway regarding its raw ability to allow a player to re-positioning amidst ranged damage and teleport abilities.

As a disclaimer, I played a solid 2 hotjoin matches for this footage. However, trying to say that “Oh, it’s not ranked,” is not going to be a valid point given that the prevalence and usage of teleports, instant invulnerability periods and instant damage will only increase as the “skill level” of PvP combat “increases.” Those things define GW2 combat. I chose necromancer as a class to play because they don’t really have those combat-defining mechanics on hand. This allows me to highlight the irrelevance of swiftness in combat (since it’s the only thing that I have going for me reliably if I want to boost my movement speed to any location other than directly to a selected target with DS2), and demonstrate the iron-hold that scripted/instant movement and instant (or at least always poorly telegraphed) damage has on GW2.

Within this environment, again, I ask, “Why does swiftness exist?” if it’s not really going to have an impact on anything that a player actively does and trading something like increased stats/an ability slot for increased movement speed is always done without a second thought in situations which won’t punish a player for lacking those trade-offs?

Equilibriator.8741:

I’d like to add that in pve, having that 25% speed boost or 33% speed boost is invaluable

Yes, but that wasn’t the point of the thread. The point of the thread was to raise questions about the existence of swiftness exactly because acquiring it (or just a flat +25% speed boost) is so easy when anyone wants it.

Equilibriator.8741:

If everyone moved faster, monsters would need a speed buff or pve would become even easier.

Alright. Why not?

Equilibriator.8741:

This means less time to react and all the time cast skills would become less viable as a result.

As I’ve said before, nobody re-positions with swiftness if they really need to move quickly. Instead, they’ll just use a teleport. This won’t change even if everyone is suddenly moving at 133% base speed.

Equilibriator.8741:

Being faster isnt just a useful thing out of combat, it really makes a difference IN combat as well, if you know how to use it and that’s the whole point.

Like I’ve said before, swiftness’ in-combat usage is very limited and almost at the level of fluke should it ever actually be effective at avoiding damage. Teleports and ranged damage will outrun any player with swiftness any day.

Equilibriator.8741:

It’s a choice, sacrifice extra damage or a cool effect to gain a movement boost.

Again, the reality is that it’s hardly a choice at all. It’s either:

• Take swiftness because nothing is going to stop you from autoattacking it to death.
  or
• Take invulnerability and instant damage/CC because I don’t need to move when I have ranged attacks/teleports and someone else on my team is probably going to give everyone enough swiftness to move to where we need to be so we can start pressing our buttons.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Erasmus.1624:

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.

No, they just disagree with you.

Maybe they do, but I’ve so far seen no reason to consider their points against mine except for that one guy who mentioned how swiftness is technically useful in combat as a “cover boon” for blatantly more overpowered boons like stability, might, fury—well, any other boon—in the case that someone on the other team has some buttons and/or passives which strip/convert boons. Technically, that is a valid point for the importance of swiftness in combat, but it’s still a little anemic in terms of proving that swiftness has a distinct and necessary role in the game when considering the points that I’ve raised about it’s lack of true opportunity cost and it’s relative uselessness in combat (especially in the opening 10-15 seconds or so of any engagement).

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Why swiftness exists? Well, I don’t know. Why sprint button exists? Or why boost button exists?

Yes, but again, those things are either very temporary or they are made (relativley) permanent in exchange for something like less total health, less outgoing damage or one of a very, very finite number of upgrade slots in order that the base speed boost for the player promotes a unique play-style which revolves around its very real trade-offs. GW2 does not follow this trend and swiftness is left out in the cold as a mere convenience rather than anything that defines or impacts combat or skill usage (especially now that anet homogenized movement skills).

Raven.9603:

you real motivation is, swiftness feels mandatory.

As I’ve said, it feels/postures itself as mandatory primarily in areas like overworld PvE and WvW: the former in which investing heavily into swiftness won’t compromise your ability to anything due to how trivial combat is; and the latter providing a huge influx of players to stack swiftness onto each other in a blob which removes the issue of having to personally spec into permanent swiftness.

Raven.9603:

and base speed feels low.

Well, it is. WASD at any speed is critically slow compared to how fast damage travels.

Raven.9603:

this right here was basically /thread.
swiftness vs no swiftness getting around is a big deal.

As I’ve said before probably a dozen times already, it’s a big deal in places that don’t punish players whatsoever for taking “non-meta” gear/trait choices just for the sake of going faster.

Raven.9603:

swiftness vs no swiftness in combat that involves kiting is a big deal.

Again, you’re actually wrong here because of how invulnerability periods (blocks, evades, actual “invulnerability”) dominate damage mitigation while in combat; actual WASD movement at any speed (especially the ultimately pittance boost one gets from swiftness) doesn’t save a player from ranged damage and instantaneous teleports, nor does it help them re-position quickly in the case that their “good positioning” has been compromised.

Raven.9603:

there is always an opportunity cost to get it. if you use a signet or trait you are down a utility slot. if you use runes you just lost out on all the other really great runesets. if you use a warhorn, you likely are missing out a weapon “that would be better if i already had swiftness.”

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.
The opportunity cost is moot in the many cases in which players “pay” to have a speed boost. Swiftness either comes for free, or it’s taken because the mode in which the player stacks the swiftness doesn’t care that the player is running non-meta sets.

Two situations:

• The mode is easy enough that the player will still roll through the content even after sacrificing an off-hand, utility and/or rune set in order to move faster all of the time (overworld PvE; dungeons; fractals)
• The mode has enough players that a group will be able to bathe itself in sufficient swiftness to get them from where they are to where they need to go at all times (PvP going from spawn to any point from the match outset; WvW blobs)

In any other case where a player would have the opportunity to sacrifice swiftness for something, that player would just do without it because swiftness is ultimately worthless when compared to any other option he/she could take within the context of any action other than running around an overworld (not that there are that many unique actions to take in GW2, but they are all astronomically better than “go 33% faster” when it comes to combat).

Raven.9603:

IMO, swiftness should be party only. Sharing it with anyone near you in the zerg is silly and devalues the people who bring it with high uptime. build groups and build communities, anet!

Or swiftness could fold itself into base player speed, and groups would just form up naturally anyway—and this time without the asinine and irrelevant worry of “Will I lose out on the optimal use of this (potentially AoE) swiftness that I’m casting primarily on myself anyway to a guy who is already under the effects of his/her own active duration?! Oh no!”

Linken.6345:

but if [swiftness] does nothing in your oppinion why should they merge it into base line just remove it, wouldent that be a far easier solution?

Swiftness does have a purpose. It’s purpose, however, is easily dismissed in exchange for outright more optimal abilities in many situations. When a supposed key aspect of game-play can be summed up in most situations as a convenience that a player would rather have but could easily replace or get along without entirely, is it worth keeping in the game?

SlyDevil.3952:

Didn’t anet cite people moving too fast across maps as the reason for nerfing movement skills?

Yes, but that’s the word of anet. Are we going to abide by the word of the team with the track record of shallow, homogenized, off-kilter balance and combat design that comprises all levels of GW2 since its launch?

Testudo.4620:

why am i physically able to run? shouldn’t my kitteny body just take me places quicker with less effort

That’s why you just run thief. They don’t really move manually at all while in combat; it’s just the server re-positioning them at the press of a button. Engagement and escape are on the same sort of level for guardian, elementalist and mesmer as well. It’s all effortless and it’s faster than swiftness. Problem solved.

Doam.8305:

Swiftness vs mounts

Mounts are an idea given that my point is ultimately: WASD movement in combat (even with swiftness applied) is outclassed by other very basic, mundane combat mechanics. Therefore, having a mount system wouldn’t be terrible given that it would just be a way to get from non-combat Point A to non-combat Point B (as is the current primary function of swiftness). However, I don’t think that GW2 really needs mounts (just my opinion). I’d be easier (and less tacky) to just fold swiftness speed into base player speed and let super speed continue to have its role as the “short-duration, dramatic, in-combat speed boost.”

Doam.8305:

That said gliders are this games answer

Gliders are only for 3 zones, players still can’t use skills while in the air, they most likely won’t actually move too much faster (or faster at all) than base player speeds, and they can only be used effectively after manually walking (or by using some EXCITING AND DYNAMIC INTERACTION NODES™ by pressing F after grinding a FRESH AND ENGAGING™ time-gated mastery line) up to a proper vantage point from which to jump and deploy the thing. You’re right about the cash-shop squeeze, though.

Doam.8305:

All that said swiftness is this games version of mount travel there both speed boosts and it seems gliders may be filling the other obligations of this traditional MMO staple.

So I guess my argument is why is it a staple at all? Why not just make overworld movement fast if it’s not going to matter all that much in combat anyway since everyone is teleporting around, being immune to incoming CC/damage for extended periods of time, and attacking with ranged, auto-guided attacks that can’t really miss unless you’re out of maximum range or deliberately shooting them into a wall that is between you and your target?

The fact that speed buffs have to be tacked on afterward is just an element of poor fundamental design: either they are pandering to some niche flavor or nostalgia factor, or they legitimately just didn’t play their game enough to realize that everyone moves like frozen molasses when compared to both the average speed of outgoing damage across all classes and the size of the overworld respectively.

Doam.8305:

Oh and the people who want mounts are completley aware that there purely cosmetic

I personally have no issue with any cosmetic aspects of gameplay (except for the cringeworthy cosmetic additions which go in contrary to the world’s original flavor in an effort to pander to immature and shallow consumers, but it’s far, far too late to wish against that in GW2 and probably folly to wish against it at all nowadays regardless of the genre but especially within the realm of games marketed as MMORPGs). It is the true end-game after all. I would even encourage it. I still just don’t see the need for mounts in GW2. Again, however, that is just my personal opinion.

My only real point is that mounts would just be redundant and would only really help cement my argument against the existence of swiftness or an out-of-combat speed boost at all if everyone just got fun creatures to ride anyway. They are both one in the same (as you have already mentioned).

pdavis.8031:

You are ignoring his point.

I made a tangent and you got overly hooked on it. I addressed his points in other parts of my post.

pdavis.8031:

As far as positioning. Positioning IS important in GW2. It’s is used extensively in open world PvE, Dungeons,

Modes in which the AI is easily read, possibly even stationary, attacks incredibly slowly, and can be baited into entirely too advantageous positions for the players with effectively no effort. Swiftness can be useful for moving from place to place, but it’s hardly necessary for combat (especially with movement skills and teleports around).

pdavis.8031:

WvW

Actually, given that no one is necessarily tied to extremely small, glowing circles in order to get anything done, WvW has a pretty decent set-up for combat positioning. Again, however, swiftness never cuts it when competing against any normal ranged combat tool that any player uses. Whether it be teleporting, scripted movement abilities, the occasional super speed, or just regular ranged attacks (barring a very select few or the situation in which both players are just attacking from absolute maximum range and the projectiles in question actually have their own scripted flight path instead of just bee-lining and bending to a selected target), swiftness will never compete with the mundane tools of combat “movement” in GW2 and will never help a player to quickly regain “good positioning” once it is so casually compromised by someone pressing often just a single button.

pdavis.8031:

and PvP.

That’s actually the funniest one: “positioning” matters in the game-mode where “good positioning” is already defined for the players by little circle markers on the map. Even then, once a player takes up “good positioning,” it’s so easily compromised by damage spam and teleports that the game has become entirely choked with stability, invulnerability, vigor, CC and passive/rapid healing to the point at which “compromising someone’s good positioning” is merely just the beginning of the process of whittling through an enemy’s invuln periods while the two (or more) of you stand relatively close together and eat most every attack anyway. Another reminder to everyone that when words like “evade,” “block,” and “invulnerable” pop up on the screen, it doesn’t mean that you smartly evaded them with “good positioning;” it means that you ate them because avoiding damage with “good positioning” alone in GW2 is a moot discussion. It doesn’t happen, which is why everyone has crutches that prolong combat and help people pretend that they’re dragging out a skillful encounter.

pdavis.8031:

If positioning didn’t matter then stacking wouldn’t be a thing.

Actually, stacking is a thing precisely because positioning doesn’t matter. Remember, you’re technically getting hit when you dodge or when a single Guardian aegis tanks a hit for the whole party. It’s because of these mechanics that players are allowed to stand in asinine positions, face into a wall, nestle right inside of enemy attack hit-boxes and still melt targets down without taking any damage (or at least not dying).

pdavis.8031:

There wouldn’t be certain places on world bosses that take double damage if standing in the exact right spot.

Cleave range is absolutely enormous in GW2. Pairing that up with huge, stationary enemy hit-boxes isn’t clever or smart: it’s basic sense.

pdavis.8031:

It wouldn’t matter where you place that arrow cart in WvW to get the most coverage.

Technically, yes, but ideal defensive locations are obvious enough, the range of arrow carts is long enough, and their AoEs are large enough that pushing a concept of “optimized arrow cart positioning” is a little bit of a stretch. It’s most effective when fired from locations at which the user can attack unhindered for an extended period of time. Locations like that in WvW are incredibly obvious. While a zerg might be able to speed build a load of carts in the field and use them as artillery (which in theory is an interesting play which might require a bit of forethought), again arrow cart range and AoE size will carry them to effectiveness rather than “positioning.” Besides, a bunch of field carts would probably be overrun by another blob bathed in the standard protection, stability and passively regenerating health ticks.

pdavis.8031:

Longbow Ranger for example. The most effective use of the longbow is at 1500 range (Ranger longbow does the most damage the further back you are). That means, in order to be the most effective with a longbow, you need to “position” yourself as far back as possible and still hit your target.

While this is true, the fact that it’s so easy to hit a target with a projectile from 1500+ range (because the true maximum range is actually closer to 1800 given the projectile’s permanence before fading combined with its continued arc from a higher elevation) speaks volumes about the original topic: the uselessness of swiftness in combat when it comes to actively avoiding damage without just eating a hit but having the game tell you that you evaded, blocked or invulned it by pressing a button.

pdavis.8031:

So what does “Swiftness” mean for positioning?
Simply put, the faster one can get to the desirable position, the more effective they will be.

The guy who is going to get there faster is the guy who has teleports or scripted movement abilities; not swiftness. If we’re talking about PvP roll-outs, the whole team is going to collectively stack some level of swiftness at the start of the game. Once those people with swiftness reach a designated combat zone, movement slows down into irrelevancy beyond twitchy teleports (which isn’t even really player movement since the server is the one moving the avatar at that point).

pdavis.8031:

If one can get to the double damage spot faster with swiftness and start doing damage before those without swiftness

The boss has plenty of health to wait for you without your swiftness in order to hit stand roughly between two hit-boxes and press 1.

pdavis.8031:

In WvW, those with swiftness can reach the keep quicker in order to mount a better defense and buy the keep more time, and allow for more reinforcements to arrive.

This is another group-related thing. The blob will provide itself with swiftness rather than individuals necessarily constantly worrying about maintaining their own private stock.

pdavis.8031:

In PvP, the faster one gets to a point, the sooner one can begin capping/de-capping, which leads to more points for your team faster, and less points for the other team.

I touched on this point already. It also doesn’t help your case that thieves and portal mesmers (teleport buttons) are the best turning a colored point into a different color when someone isn’t looking.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Erasmus.1624:

I’ve already mentioned how swiftness alone will not effectively prevent damage in GW2 combat outside of the situation of maybe fighting some PvE mobs who won’t kill anyone normally anyway.

I take it you’ve never done Arah paths with PUGs before, have you?

Of course, the better question is why you consider a 33% speed boost meaningless but a 50% speed boost meaningful. The latter is only 13% faster, after all.

Super speed is actually a 100% speed boost. While it’s irrelevant out of combat because everyone just has swiftness, it’s actually a dramatic boost while in combat due to the 27% combat speed malus.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Reasons the OP is wrong

1. Aren’t swiftness and crippled a matched pair for boon/condition conversions? Both being fairly long term applications, I would say that is a reason for swiftness right there. If anything, what is the point of super speed?

While swiftness/crippled conversions make logical sense, in reality, that exchange is primarily flavor-centric. It’s the same reason why chill converts into resistance or bleeding into vigor (if you’re using a necro well): that is to say, there is no real reason aside from a potential jab at flavor. Keep in mind that flavor was entirely behind the original Engineer Rocket Boots and look how well those worked out to everyone’s liking (spoiler: they were completely changed to what they are now).

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

1. I also find it

For the umpteeth time, do not begin an argument with “I think” or “I find it” or “I believe.” Start with a question or an actual declarative statement about the established reality of your topic instead of a clause that highlights how what’s coming up is mainly just your opinion on something.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

a meaningful buff to be able to move noticeably faster than other players. Especially in sPvP and WvW. I couldn’t imagine someone in either setting disagreeing on this point when positioning is so important.

Except positioning isn’t important in a game dominated by ranged attacks which don’t miss, instant teleport abilities, and the fact that instead of actually avoiding damage with WASD, players face-tank incoming damage, but pretend that they aren’t actually standing in a big red circle or someone’s cleave range only because the game is telling them that they are “evading,” or “blocking,” or “invulnerable.” While it is possible to attain “good positioning” in GW2, such positioning is so easily compromised by anyone merely pressing a button that the concept of “good positioning” is greatly contrived.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

1. High swiftness uptime requires sacrifice. Sure we can run travelers runes, but the speed boost is the only redeeming feature of that rune set. This means traiting for the speed, or giving up skill slots, or using weapons you would rather not. Perhaps for your favorite class it is trivial, but how many guardians do you see with Perma swiftness, even with the less than amazing staff? Heck, I probably wouldn’t even use guardian staff if not for swiftness. That screams trade-off right there.

People just don’t read. It’s not that there isn’t a trade-off: there is. However, the trade-off comes in scenarios which primarily negate the trade-off detriments or discourage trading off at all for very justifiable reasons. You run guardian staff because you want swiftness and tagging ability while running with mobs in WvW/overworld PvE (the latter of which can easily be soloed with your second weapon anyway). In those modes, sheer player numbers and/or lack of NPC mob HP make it so most “sub-optimal” gear choices are mostly moot. It’s the reason why vitality/toughness stats are pretty meta in WvW blobs: everyone can get away with dealing mediocre damage because there are just so many people dealing mediocre damage together that it equates out to absurd amounts of it.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

You seem to not value these trade offs because to you a single skill slot or trait is nothing, but for many of us we see the damage or utility we give up when we go for the increased speed.

If you’re playing the meta, your choice will be very obvious. Obvious and benefitting enough that someone who knows how to read tool tips will just sacrifice moving 33% faster all of the time for something more overpowered like invulnerability, passive conditions, CC or instant damage. I’ve already mentioned how swiftness alone will not effectively prevent damage in GW2 combat outside of the situation of maybe fighting some PvE mobs who won’t kill anyone normally anyway.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Some classes do seem to win out more than others when it comes to swiftness(engineer comes to mind), but that’s also part of class balance.

If a class is going to have a permanent speed boost, their gameplay might as well be designed around it. However, permanent swiftness is effectively nothing more than an out-of-combat convenience rather than a defining combat feature (especially since it’s a flat, homogenized buff that anyone can apply or get) given how easy it is to give chase or engage in GW2 with all of its teleports, immunities and movement skills.

Ardid.7203:

If there is not a trade-off, then why to bother with this thread?

The point is exactly that: if there is no real trade-off when it’s justifiable to dip into permaswiftness, then it might as well be baseline. The fact that everyone gets it so easily when they want it anyway (even if it isn’t necessarily fully permanent) makes it nothing more than bloat for the sake of flavor.

Seera.5916:

People in games will always demand to go faster. If left unchecked, people would eventually need “boons” to slow themselves down in order to do jumping puzzles.

Just because I can raise points to challenge swiftness’ existence in GW2 doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone should push for an even faster speed threshold beyond it. The points that I’ve raised call to abolish swiftness and incorporated into baseline player movement speed. Super speed already remains so much faster than swiftness that it will still have a strong impact in combat. Period. That’s it. We have everything we need.

Besides, AS I’VE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES BEFORE, if anyone wants to “move” quickly in GW2, they will use a scripted movement animation or a scripted teleport to do it. WASD at any player speed is not fast enough to outrun damage in most scenarios in GW2.

Seera.5916:

Even under your suggestion, people would want more access to the super speed.

While that is true, super speed is ideally left at a 3 second duration. Recharge times can help properly cull it’s maintenance. Only an utter fool with no concept of design would allow such a powerful speed boost to be constantly maintained without a player who can do it suffering something like -100% outgoing damage in exchange (think Sticky Jumper or Rocket Jumper in Team Fortress 2).

Then when that is granted, we’re back to where we all now. People going: “super speed is so easy to get and maintain, we might as well make it the new base speed and add in super super speed.”

Seera.5916:

And it’s not an opinion that my guardian and warrior don’t run with anything to boost their speed. It’s a fact.

Yes, but it’s your opinion that you tolerate it even though you can easily have at the bare minimum a 50% uptime on swiftness or permanent 25% faster movement speed by giving up either a utility slot or your rune set respectively. In places where you would want to permanently move faster, the combat difficulty and generally low HP of all enemies will gladly oblige your “non-meta” decisions.

Seera.5916:

My opinion is that we go fast enough considering the waypoints that are everywhere. WvW is spread out because it’s not supposed to be res-wars. It’s supposed to be catastrophic for a group to wipe when defending or attacking. Not to be able to be back in the action in 5 seconds.

I wasn’t talking at all about the size of WvW maps. As I’ve said before, swiftness doesn’t even make players move that fast in comparison to most of the overworld/WvW maps. It is, however, mostly taken for granted because everyone has it to some extent, and in the case of WvW, everyone will have it forever if we’re talking within the context of a group.

Draknar.5748:

I guess the answer to this question is no. Speed boosts are whatever the developers want them to be. If you prefer them to be temporary clutch things to allow for a single play, then I dunno what to say really.

Yes, but it makes no sense for the speed boost to be so long and so easy to achieve if one wants them to actually have a defined impact on combat. Movement speed greatly defines one’s combat style and options. Being able to temporarily increase that speed by a substantial amount should provide a player with a small window to make something happen that otherwise might be out of that player’s hands. Swiftness does nothing but tease players with the idea of a speed boost’s importance when, in reality, swiftness’ frequency and ease of application turn it into something that might as well just be a flat baseline attribute of all players. If someone wants swiftness at any given point in time, chances are they will have no real problem getting it.

Draknar.5748:

Zackie.8923:

they should get rid of swiftness and make it 133% across the board.

swiftness is like the old mf system, pigeonholes everyone into using it.

So there should be no skills whatsoever that increases movement speed, ever?

Or you just want base speed to go up, and then on top of that still allow Swiftness so that you can go even faster than that. <—- if we did that then we’d be in the same boat as we are now.

The whole post equates to: I feel base movement speed is too slow…

I’m all for increasing base movement speed. I mean, who the heck wouldn’t be. But I’m very much against removing Swiftness.

I never said that there would be no more movement speed increases. Scripted directional movement abilities like leaps and charges are technically temporary movement speed increase abilities; super speed would still be a thing. I have to ask again: What’s the point of a speed boost’s niche role or effectiveness if it’s permanent? Aren’t speed boosts supposed to be those very temporary clutch things which allow for a single play?

It’s very rare that (in any game) a player or class has the opportunity to permanently increase his/her base speed (especially by a large amount) without it either having some draw-back in order to provide a unique play-style or if the game is entirely vs AI (like a traditional offline RPG) in which case nobody cares because the guy is wailing on NPCs and is perfectly allowed to be as broken as he/she wants.

Super speed will take the role of what swiftness was supposed to be: a short-duration, significant speed boost which can be used to give chase or kite. Swiftness will just become baseline.

That ol noob.7083:

Ok, let’s make one thing clear. Swiftness is NOT used exclusively in moving around the map. Swiftness has a viable combat use too – getting out of attacks w/o dodging.

Maybe in PvE when enemies attack with all the vigor and speed of a bed-ridden elderly man. In PvP/WvW, every player’s damage travels fast enough to negate the effectiveness of swiftness as a consistently viable means of actually avoiding damage (since whenever the “evade, block, invuln, etc” tag pops up, it actually means you got hit). The thief class alone should disprove your point about how swiftness is a viable means of avoiding damage, not to mention any other classes or individual skills.

That ol noob.7083:

If we increase the base movement speed, we will have to increase attack speed too.

The damage and effects that matter in GW2 are often inflicted instantly and even passively already. It’s impossible to increase “instant.” There’s no way that even a baseline movement speed of what is the current 133% would ever compromise someone’s ability to instantly teleport onto a guy or press something like shatter, phantasms, any scripted movement skill (which are no longer affected by slows), any ranged projectile attack barring maybe elementalist fireball and guardian orb of wrath unless the user was just being dumb and shooting things into a wall or deliberately while out of range.

Ardid.7203:

The problem is that people insist on seeing combat as the only component of the game. It is not. Exploration exists, too, and to make an “exploration-focused build” with perma-swiftness IS a trade-off of making a “combat-focused build” with some perma-combat-boon.

Yes, but my point is that in places where swiftness matters the most, combat doesn’t; and in places where combat matters the most, swiftness is suddenly mostly irrelevant except maybe as a mere cover boon. At such a point, swiftness may as well just be baseline or not exist at all since there’s nothing to compromise when one invests entirely into one or the other: there actually is no trade-off.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Erasmus.1624:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I happen to think

That isn’t an argument.

Well if you aren’t willing to accept the opinions of others as valid there is literally no reason why anyone should consider yours either.

I can accept your right to have an opinion, but an opinion isn’t a strong argument. It’s an opinion. I’m talking about how swiftness’ objective role in GW2, not a matter of how I “feel” it’s too slow, or just right, or out of place. I’ve given plenty of points and I’ve gotten little but “No, I think it’s fine,” in return. That’s not a real argument.

Linken.6345:

You seem to think you can have the cake and eat it aswell, but you cant and you even
answer your question all the time you have to give up a trait that lock you in to certain weapons dual daggers for necro, meaning if you want dagger/warhorn aswell your locked to melee range,

Again, the only places in which permanent movement speed increase is extremely desirable are overworld PvE and WvW. WvW is known for zergs and roamers, the latter of which are typically only a few classes anyway. Overworld PvE is so forgiving that one can invest as much as they want into swiftness and still be effective. Dagger provides necro’s optimal DPS, so it’s a perfectly acceptable trait choice. I’ve already explained why perfectly permanent swiftness isn’t necessary in the other modes.

Linken.6345:

Its not effortless to have base 125 on any class you have to sacrifice something else.

Equipping a trait, rune set, or slotting a signet for a mode which is more than forgiving enough to for it is rather effortless. It’s not only effortless, but the opportunity cost “lost” for equipping that skill over another skill is negligible (especially if you’re going to talk about Necromancers with their only 2 wells which actually deal damage).

Linken.6345:

Guardians only got 1 weapon and 2 shouts with swiftness locking them down even further

A 50% uptime on swiftness for a single button which also instantly grants AoE aegis is nothing to dismiss. It’s a huge skill.

Linken.6345:

dont get me started on the poor pre hot mesmers.

I already mentioned how people cried enough before they got their swiftness. Even before, though, it was more than possible to buy centaur runes and move around with the mantra heal for permanent swiftness. This is overworld PvE, man. Even dungeons will forgive someone for running a non-optimal rune set. If a mesmer is going to do something in WvW as a roamer, he’s not going to care because he’s slow and invisible anyway; relying on AI and hoping that his enemy will actually play aggro instead of passive like one always should with this game. If he’s going to do something in WvW as part of a zerg, he passively receives swiftness from the blob.

Actually, wait, no, Kheo’s point is also mostly invalidated.

The only place where people would really, REALLY want absolutely permanent swiftness would be the PvE overworld. In the PvE overworld, numbers and the general lack of HP sponges compared to instanced areas make it so investing into permanent swiftness is almost not really a drawback. What’s stopping that ranger from bringing warhorn and shouts if the GS autoattack will just gib plenty of enemies effectively enough (so long as the player is at least wearing zerker, but then why wouldn’t that be the case)?

In WvW, the fact that player numbers aren’t balanced by limiting constraints, zergs will always have permanent swiftness. Roaming players will either build to include some swiftness or just opt for a +25% movement speed bonus (which I have already mentioned). PvP maps are small enough that permanent swiftness isn’t necessary given that just using any swiftness skill is enough to carry a player the majority (if not all) of the distance between any two given points. Dungeons can easily be done without an emphasis on swiftness.

Kheo.2504:

Swiftness is not “effortless to maintain” as you make it out to be.

Pressing a few buttons is very easy.

Kheo.2504:

Unless you’re doing pure exploration and nothing else, I doubt you would have your build set up to grant perma-swiftness.

This is a fair point, and you go into detail about one of the few classes that would really need to sacrifice a lot in order to get permanent swiftness. Even then, however, I already mentioned how the game is choked with +25% movement speed bonuses. Coming up just 8% short of swiftness speed in exchange for a single passive slot or utility button (which almost always isn’t really a trade because signets have passives and actives) is a trade that anyone would take. There is hardly any opportunity cost in that scenario. Moreover, as I have said before, when a player is moving at 125% base movement speed, the actual effects of swiftness are pretty much non-existent. Swiftness (among other boons and some conditions) is effectively bloat.

The reason why it’s “cheaper” to have perma or high uptime on swiftness for some other classes is because their meta weapons just so happen to also provide that. Even so, if there is no easy option for perma swiftness, the alternatives are hardly a real trade-off.

Seera.5916:

You’ve missed Indigo’s point.

If you make the current 133% speed the new 100%, players will ask for a new 133% speed.

And they won’t get it if anyone has half a mind on the consequences. Speed boosts are temporary for a reason. If someone could move super fast at all times while simultaneously dealing damage and/or being invulnerable, they would be overpowered. Short bursts of super speed taking over the role of swiftness will serve that role in combat since out-of-combat movement speed would just be fast all of the time.

Seera.5916:

And as an fyi, my Guardian doesn’t run with anything that boosts her speed out of combat. She moves fast enough without it. Neither does my warrior nor my ranger

OK. Opinion noted.

Seera.5916:

My ele has swapping to air and some skills only because the weapon has the ability and the trait gives might and regen when swapping to fire and water respectively. My mesmer only has it because I like the skill that gives me random boons, it just always gives swiftness on top of the random boon.

More opinions noted. I also mentioned how easy it is to get boons in general.

sephiroth.4217:

In PvP against a boon stripping build, I find it valuable to have swiftness to get from point to point and to have swiftness stripped from me rather than my stability or might stacks

I think that this thread is only helping my argument when “It’s a cover boon for more overpowered boons” is one of the best arguments I’ve seen so far. Also, of course everyone wants swiftness for walking from point to point. I already said that.

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, that isn’t the case. I generally have a 25% movement buff on my characters, because I like to go faster. I am having to give up other things, whether that be a slot skill or a trait or even an entire trait line.

I already mentioned traits and runes. On my necromancer, I too have a +25% movement bonus at all times, and that trait selection was a very easy choice to make. My point has always been that not only is swiftness unnecessary, but also tangentially there is the consequence of how so many traits and runes would be culled and freed up because no one would have to waste buttons or passives on “move just slightly faster” anymore.

IndigoSundown.5419:

You’re also ignoring the psychological factor. If 133% was baseline and speed options were removed, we’d see complaints about the lack of options to go faster. Guaranteed.

What the scenario becomes is that everyone moves fast out of combat, and then due to combat speed, “super speed” becomes a more common option (one that is also completely in control of the player) for players looking to re-position, give chase, or outrun a few attacks for just a quick couple of seconds. In order to give super speed just a little more “oomph” if necessary and really give it some contrast to regular movement speed, it might be worthwhile to increase the player speed cap to 150%. There are plenty of other creatures in the game that move faster than players under the effects of swiftness, so the concept is possible. However, given that combat speed drags down a player’s movement speed by a solid 29%, such a cap increase might not be terribly necessary.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I was simply pointing out how trivial this forum topic is.

The only trivial idea here is the inclusion of swiftness in GW2.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You asked a question as to why things are the way they are…
…and the answer is because the GW2 developers decided they wanted them to be that way.

That’s not a good enough answer when I’ve already raised points which critically undermine the existence of swiftness at all. This isn’t a discussion about universal constants. Swiftness technically doesn’t have to exist. It happens to, yes, and again yes, primarily by the will of anet, but that doesn’t mean that it’s justified solely in that.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Why did you make this thread?
Were you not attempting to initiate some sort of discussion?

Simply because you are not getting the feedback you desire does not mean the responses are irrelevant.

I am getting feedback, but you aren’t actually addressing any of my points.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You want to take off the bottom layer on the totem pole…. and I’m letting you know that having innate swiftness while out of combat is something you are taking for granted…

Yes, that was the entire point: the whole game takes it for granted because it might as well be granted at all times with how effortless it is to maintain.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

and if we did not have this increase while ooc, you wouldn’t even know what “combat speed” was to compare it with.

Sure we would. Combat speed still drastically slows players’ forward movement.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Simply because you feel slow, does not mean you are slow…. since “slow” is completely relative, and is a description that can only be used when you have a reference…

This is actually a fair point, but I did actually give one particular reference: the comparison between how fast a player can move and how fast damage travels in this game. Frankly, there is no comparison. If a game’s only homogenized movement speed boost isn’t good for anything but moving from point A to point B while out of combat and it’s easy to get such a boost and maintain it on every class, why have it? Why not just make it baseline? It’s practically already baseline for every class at this point anyway.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Would you rather have copper put directly into your inventory instead of getting trash items to sell to a vendor?

If you’re referring to the trophy items which have no purpose whatsoever but to be sold, then yes, that makes sense. Flavor shouldn’t be the only defining reason behind a game mechanic. It just becomes fluff that takes up space after a while. While there is a certain leeway on this when it comes to atmospheric design, combat mechanics and resources should be very well kept within the range of user practicality.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Swiftness and super speed have their places in the status effects kingdom,

Super speed does. I mentioned that. Swiftness doesn’t really have a purpose.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

unnecessary “power creep” in movement speed.

But EVERYONE IS ALREADY BATHED IN SWIFTNESS AT ALL TIMES. It isn’t powercreep when it’s actually the reality of the system in place.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I happen to think

That isn’t an argument.

Kheo.2504:

As for you feeling that movement is too slow in general, you can just spec yourself to have the +25% speed at all times and give up your 6 rune slots/1 ability slot.

It’s never been a matter of “It’s too hard to be permanently faster than base movement speed.” The question was “Why waste traits, runes and skills on something that is ultimately superfluous?” I already made a point about how this game has no real sense of opportunity cost.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

When you develop your own game, you can decide how movement speed works.

Why is this relevant?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Be happy that we even move faster out of combat at all, since we could have been stuck at “combat speed” at all times….

Yes, but we aren’t. Why is this a relevant comment?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I personally enjoy the speed increase that allows us to get around faster when not in combat.

So you would rather just press 1-4 buttons every 10-30 seconds in order to apply an otherwise irrelevant tack-on buff rather than explore at max speed at all times and only press buttons when actually doing something?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Swiftness exists because speccing for it involves opportunity costs and trade-offs — just like every other buff in the game.

There is hardly any opportunity cost in GW2, man. Important actions to take in combat are “be invulnerable,” “deal damage,” “CC,” “move quickly/instantly with impunity,” and “self heal.” Any “good” build will comfortably slot all five and all five will be easy to activate or apply (dodge is even a form of the first one, and that’s available to all classes). Moving 33% faster doesn’t really help negate damage, juke a target, or hold a position in combat vs anyone with any sort of movement or teleport abilities (of which there are loads).

You also don’t mention how easy it is to get buffs in general. When are there not players running around with 20+ might, perma swiftness, 10+ seconds of retal, 50% uptime on vigor, etc. Protection and regeneration are alright and plenty common as well, but regen isn’t as good as just healing passively/pressing a heal button without a boon, and prot can’t compete with just being outright invulnerable via blocks, dodge, evades, and the actual thing labeled “invulnerability.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Some buffs, of course, are more desirable than others.

Yes, but I’ve said how swiftness is perfectly worthless on many levels. Why not just cut the fat? Do you not want to go faster? You’re probably already effortlessly maintaining swiftness at the moment anyway. Does its existence even matter if you can just have it for free at all times anyway?