Guild Wars 2

Avatar.1923:

basically, new pve content can be added.

that “player influence part” would just be a side thing. something to do for top players" and something to give a bit of life into the game.
so that it doesnt look like a huge “npc”.

i strongly believe that the Players need to be stimulated in other ways as just “gear and stats”.

They could do this very easily just by adding Titles for completing certain content and for winning in sPvP & WvW.

They need some seriously epic endgame content, and they need it fast. And not another stupid quick dungeon. They need something challenging that will take time to complete because its difficult, not because its grindy.

Azzras.8041:

DusK.3849:

Also, didn’t notice the edit but this

Rizzy.8293:

Guildwars = MMORPG

is completely false. You clearly know nothing about the genre you’re talking about if you think GW1 was an MMO.

How was GW not an MMO?

Guild Wars was not an MMO because it did not have a persistent world where you could interact with massive amounts of players. It had instanced zones with big chat rooms in between (cities).

I’ve been playing MMOs for a long time. Over the years, there were some memorable moments of epicness that I will never forget.

Its those types of moments that I’m looking for in new games.

In DAoC, there were many epic events. From my first Relic raid, to my first Dragon raid. These were really hard encounters when the game was young, and took a ton of coordination and planning on a large scale. Even the dreaded Trials of Atlantis expansion contained tons of difficult content. Realm vs. Realm was amazing fun because pvp was hard. This has alot to do with tricky combat mechanics, and taking away the holy trinity, like it or not, has dumbed down combat quite a bit – as far as group-based fights go. One on one is a different matter.

In WoW, I’ll never forget when we killed the Lich King for the first time. I’d never seen a video on it, and I had no idea what was going to happen in the cut scene, so when we all fell on the ground and died at the end, I thought it was over. Then the cutscene started, my guild leader was hollaring in vent, and everyone was freaking out excited.

These are the types of moments I’m looking for. You don’t find them with easy content. You find them when you have to work really hard to achieve them, not by grinding, but by conquering difficult content, or in epic PvP that requires the coordination and strategy of many players, and truly means something to your character when you win. (even if its just a cool title)

GW2 really has nothing epic to offer at this current time.

johnnycosmic.9130:

So is the consensuses here for Anet to stop fighting botts so we can reap better crafting rewards?

They could start by banning the bots that have been reported.

Avatar.1923:

because once you have better gear, you want even better.
and this is not a strong endgame solution.

Its not just about better gear.

Its about difficult content, and applicable rewards for completing it. Dynamic events are fun, exploring is fun, crafting is fun, zone completion is fun, but none of that is hard. Its all easy.

Dungeons and endgame content should require heavy group coordination. It should take a while to get through all of it- at least for your average raid group. At least a few months. There really isn’t any challenging content like that in GW2.

RShara.3265:

Why does there need to be something that is done only after you hit max level?

Because some people prefer to eat their salad before the main entree. And some players consider leveling up to be like salad, and endgame to be the main entree. In other words, no matter how interesting they make the leveling process, it will never be interesting enough to substitute for solid, challenging, endgame content.

There are various reasons for this. I will list two.

1) There are ten years of MMO history in which leveling up is the salad, and endgame is the main course. So part of it is psychological.

But there’s a more significant reason.

2) Leveling up, no matter how interesting, does not often contain very challenging content. GW2 did nothing to change that trend. Yes, the content is interesting, but it is not challenging. Therefore, the gamer thinks oh, I am going to use all these levels I’m gaining for a real challenge when I’m done. But then there’s no real challenge to follow. At least not one worth doing. Just a bunch of mindless grinding/farming. That’s not a very clever use of the 80 levels the player worked so hard to gain. Its not a very tasty main course.

This is partially solved by WvW, in which fighting other players can contain endless amounts of challenge. However, some people don’t enjoy pvp, and to be honest, WvW isn’t that well implemented.

GW2 salad is great. But the main course needs some work.

gurugeorge.9857:

Oxe.6142:

Yes, I’m sure that’s what people in Star Wars said just before everyone left. And the happy majority, as we all know, lives happily ever after in whatever game they are now playing.

But Star Wars was a subscription MMO, so the comparison is inapt. You can’t “leave” GW or GW2 in any way that affects Arenanet’s bottom line, because you’ve already paid them all the money you’re going to pay them for the game as it is atm.

It’s an empty threat.

If you believe that, you really don’t understand the importance of microtransactions in Anet’s business model. Its not just there for “extra” spending money. Its an integral piece of the revenue projections.

DAoC is still my favorite MMO of all. I’d say WoW is next. If GW2 can clean up their end game, it has the potential to pass up WoW on my list of best MMOs.

A whip for my guardian would be sweet.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

I mean, really? You can’t allow us to have one single game in the MMOG market that isn’t progress/reward-centric without complaining and criticising and trying to change it?

The thing is, there’s a lot of players who really like GW2, but don’t agree with your philosophy, are struggling to have “fun” at level 80, and they are using the forums to communicate to Anet what it will take to keep them as a customer.

I’m not sure if there’s enough players like you for Anet to ignore the players like me. But that’s for them to decide.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

FarFarAway.6579:

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Because it’s not “either/or”, and nobody made the case that it is, or that it should be. Just because the game has progression in it doesn’t make it a progression-centric game. You can have progression in a game without that progression being the main reason to do anything.

You’re right – its not either/or. It has to be both. Fun and Progress go together. GW2 got it right on the leveling portion of the game. Are you telling me that without the leveling system you would have killed that many enemies, completed that many dynamic events, or heart encounters? For what? Oh right, just for fun.

Trying to have fun without progress/reward in an MMO is like playing counterstrike with no death spam.

Avatar.1923:

you can eat up all the content, but then, yeah, the game is about pvp, or grind or a new toon. its your choice.
be grateful they dont give you the illusion of progress by rerunning the same
area over and over.

What about endgame content? There shouldn’t be any of that because you consider endgame content a grind?
Take away the badge grind and put in random drops. Then I can be excited each time I run a dungeon that I might get something I need.

The fact is there just isn’t enough post-80 content, and what is there, is exactly a grind, and not “fun” like the leveling process was. That’s the issue. Leveling was very well-thought out. Endgame was not. It needs to be fixed asap.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Gave.9408:

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

That would be true if anyone had made an either/or claim about fun vs reward. The game is fun-centric, not fun-exclusive. Rewards are a part of the game, just not the primary focus. If that was the case, you’d be able to grind for something other than cosmetic variances, and progress would never stop.

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Gave.9408:

I’m still waiting for a response to my “NO LEVELS, NO STATS” pitch.

If this game is simply about “fun”, then what better a way to get rid of that no-no mindset of rewards = fun? After all, this is the revolutionary Guild Wars 2 we’re talking about.

I hear ya. RPGs are all about the character progression. Take that away, and what’s left? Some pretty zones to explore, a sub-par personal story, and combat that’s completely repetitive. Even crafting would be gone, because that is a progression-based system as well.

Oh they have reason to. Once the community makes an exodus from an MMO, its nearly impossible to get them back. Yes, there will always be a dedicated, hardcore following, but the core MMO crowd will be gone. I’m pretty sure Anet wants to keep that crowd around.

You know how Anet made endgame a grind? Badges/Tears instead of random drops in dungeons.

You know exactly how many runs you have to do to earn your reward. That is much less exciting than having the chance to get it quick. Gambling is addictive. Random drops are kind of like gambling. If I have to run a dungeon 20 times to get my drop, I’m going to be just as excited every time that this might be the one run. I’d rather have that chance then knowing from the get-go I have to farm it 20 times to get what I need. Gear drops are my version of fun. Badge farming is not fun. But that’s just me.

You can’t tell thousands of MMO players who enjoy progression not to enjoy progression, or that they should find certain activities fun, like doing the same types of things as other MMOs, but without the point in doing them. Good luck with that. Most players want some overarching purpose of doing what they’re doing. Otherwise it just feels like a colossal waste of time (which it is anyway, but at least with character development you feel like you got something out of it).

Edit: Let me add this: I think Arenanet did a spectacular job with the leveling process, in not making it feel grindy. Now they need to do the same thing with endgame. Give some progression, but do it in a way that doesn’t feel grindy. Create some dungeons that are actually fun to run would be a good start. One of the exciting things about dungeons in other games is that you might get the piece of armor you are looking for. You could get it on the first run if you’re lucky! That’s what keeps players coming back again and again. The excitement of maybe getting their drop. I think badge farming is a lame excuse for an endgame, and takes away the excitement and suspense. You already know how many runs you have to do. So it feels exactly like a grind.

I’m taking it slow. Probably another week or two before I hit 80. Might try a few dungeons and play around in WvW, grab a set of the good armor, finish off my crafting skills. So I’d say another month. I don’t see a point to continue playing after that, if there’s nothing more to work on (minus legendaries – I’m not that insane).

Rieselle.5079:

All this talk of “rewards” is very strange. I played all the Devil May Cry games (except 2) a dozen times each, and I never got any virtual gold or fancy armours.

I played Demon’s and Dark Souls for 200+ hours each, and I already had everything after the first playthrough of each.

And so on and so forth….

I’m pretty sure most of the people here whining about “rewards” would play other (single player) games just like I do, so why are their heads suddenly turned the wrong way when it comes to MMOs? (I noticed this in Diablo 3 as well – the “greedy gamer” is very dominant there too.)

People really need to learn a bit of perspective on the true value of pixels and numbers in a database somewhere. If the enjoyment of playing the game isnt it’s own reward, you really need to rethink why you’re playing in the first place.

It’s as if everyone is happily playing Tetris for years, and then they discover some sort of bonus “You Win” screen if you’ve played the game 10,000 times. All of a sudden people start complaining, “What?! 10,000 times for a lousy screen? That’s hardly worth it at all! I’m quitting Tetris until they fix this!”

I think you have your genres confused. This is an RPG. The games you mentioned are not RPGs. RPGs, especially in video games (as opposed to table-top versions), emphasize character advancement. That is a core concept. If you don’t believe me, go read about it on Wikipedia. Rewards serve to advance your character. They make your armor more protective, your sword more destructive, your intellect wittier, or your strength greater. So your character can slay an even bigger dragon next time his home town is threatened. That’s what its all about.

Bring a friend or wait a few levels and go back and do it.

Gifts are account bound.

I cant let you die.5219:

I am FULLY aware of how far away I am, my question was when I do get it will i be able to trade it to my warrior?

I’m fairly certain the answer is no to trading your weapon. However, the gifts you earn, like the gift of exploration, are account bound, so you will be able to use it on another character.

knightblaster.8027:

This is the reality, I think. People are utterly and thoroughly brainwashed by the Skinner box mentality. It’s simply the case that almost all content is viewed instrumentally by these players: what do I get out of it. That determines the “fun” of the content. It’s a very sad thing, but it goes to show you just how influential the Skinner design has been in online gaming.

Players are not wrong to want to improve their characters via game activities. That is the ENTIRE point of an RPG. To become a bigger hero. To become stronger. That’s why they start out as half-nekkid peasants, are sent on adventures, go through trials and tribulations, and eventually slay dragons. With a bigger sword than they ever could have imagined, mind you. Because that’s what its all about. PROGRESSION. That’s the Genre. Why is this such a difficult concept?

AvivKing.5863:

first of all u have a looooooooooooong way till u get ur legendry weapon !
we start with 100% world exploration – that will take u some time specialy at the end !
2nd u need spendd weeks on WvW to get 500 budgets
3rd u need get 200 skill point – mean u need alot of exp .- since now dengeons give u 20k exp instad of 177k exp per run !!
4th u need alot if dungeon run so u could get ur gift of the specipic weapon u need (500 tocken) each run give u 20 ! do the math !
and for the finaleeeee
need toooooonnnns of gold to buy all the math and the “weapon of rage” that probably cost like 70-80 gold

if u menge to get all that ! congrats on ur new legendery weapon

Does your spelling & grammar really suck that bad, or do you just have a legendary grinding hangover? Sorry. I couldn’t resist. Its so bad. lol

Debsylvania.7396:

You’d think, after “chewing through” all of those formerly monthly subscription based MMOs, (I assume you played them then, as Aion and SWTOR have only recently gone free to play) you’d realize that NO game can meet the expectations that you have. You suggest “all it would take…” when those other games couldn’t meet those demands, either. What makes you think this or any game could keep up?

Don’t you think it’s unfair to foist your unreasonable expectations on a game that, from the beginning, said it was going to have no subscriptions and was going to be nontraditional in terms of endgame?

I only mentioned the games that failed, not the ones that succeeded. The same players who quit all those games played DAoC for many years. The reason is because of the endgame RvR progression. It took years to get the highest realm rank in DAoC. Not to mention that the RvR was insanely fun, but without the realm ranks, wouldn’t have been so addictive.

Players continue to play WoW (or did for many years) because of the endgame progression.

I’ve yet to see an MMO succeed long-term that did not offer continual progression. If you know of one, go ahead and share it.

1) A game that has an active community, busy servers, moving economy.

2) A game that offers true progression for PvP via stat or ability bonuses and ranks.

3) A game that offers challenging, but fun content for endgame groups that provides some meaningful reward.

AcidicVision.5498:

But what you are trying to say is that if all of the “hardcore players” ran off to Panda land next week, it would shut down GW2. And that’s far from the case. It’s actually incredibly arrogant. Akin to saying that if MLG quit hosting Halo or CoD tournaments that the games wouldn’t still be massively commercially successful.

I have well over 300 hours in GW so far. I wouldn’t consider that casual at all. I lead a fairly large guild and we handle the tougher content. I also competitively play fighting games and shooters. So I can say pretty confidently that something every hardcore, competitive community has in common: They whine too much and think they are more important than they are.

No, I’m not saying it would shut down GW2, but it will impact the playerbase and eventually will impact the success of expansions and gem sales, and its not arrogant because I’m not a powergamer anymore. I’m a very casual player now days. I’m level 60, and trucking along at my slow pace perfectly happy. But I am in a guild full of players who chew through content and I am scared they are going to quit, because that’s what always happens. It happened in Aion, WAR, & SWTOR. Each of those games my guild quit because of a lack of endgame.

All it would take to keep them around is some end game gear progression via raids and/or realm levels via WvW.

Additionally, I want to know that when I hit lvl 80 that I have a clear path from there to continue progressing (towards something meaningful) until Arenanet introduces the next expansion. Maybe that’s asking for too much, but I hear a lot of others asking for the same exact thing. Are we really the minority? I’m not so sure about that.

Anywhere with dragons.

AcidicVision.5498:

The microtransactions that kept GW going for years after the last expansion was released were extra char slots, character make-overs, and extra inventory space. The same things you see people talking about buying from the gem store now. Not boosters. Nothing for power gamers. I would bet you a shiny nickle they have sold more dye packs and pet cages than they have consumable boosts.

You are speaking for a niche group. A small niche group. Hardcore players don’t keep the lights on. Which is why Anet has no issue banning the kitten out of them when they become poisonous to the community. As they demonstrated when those “power-gamers” cashed in on a Karma exploit.

And the things beta testers complained about in SWTOR beta were legitimate, game breaking problems and transparent time sinks to keep the subscription rolling. The biggest complaints you are seeing so far from GW2 players is that they have nothing to do after they rushed to 80 (even though they skipped past half of the content to get there), and that they don’t get a pretty enough bauble for their 30 minutes of time. Very very big difference between being fundamentally broken on several major levels, and the self-entitlement some players have that makes them think there should be a grand reward for every small accomplishment.

You do realize you can convert gems into gold, right? There really is no limit to what gem purchases can be used for.

Btw, way to call powergamers exploiters. That’s a pretty big assumption to make. The “small niche” of powergamers are what drive the success of MMOs. They lead guilds. Guildies follow them. When they leave, the majority leaves soon after. It happens in every MMO with the exception of that one some people still play, but even there, the community has eroded.

GW1 was not an MMO, btw, and I’m sure Arenanet intends to do more with GW2 than just “keep it going”. They didn’t design an MMO just for the benefit of ex-GW players. They designed it because its hugely profitable, and the bigger the community, the more profitable it is.

The nice thing about endgame progression is that players don’t have to participate if they’d prefer to level another character, explore, or just pvp. Having something for everyone just means that more players keep playing.

AcidicVision.5498:

Bioware ignored player feedback

Bingo. What you’re reading on this forum is player feedback. Defenders of that other game posted the same kind of defenses you are posting here. I know because I was one of them. Diehard fan. Its stupid. I’m not making that mistake again.

What’s going to ruffle the feathers of Arenanet is a slowdown in their microtransaction activity. And don’t think it won’t happen. Who do you think spends the most cash on gems? Powergamers.

You guys do realize why waypoints cost so much, why you get so little silver/gold from high level quests, dungeons, etc, right?

Its all about profiting from microtransactions.

Viking.1950:

FarFarAway.6579:

IanAwesome.3192:

The grind sounds crazier than it was back in Vanilla Aion and Tera ._.

There is no grind crazier than Vanilla Aion. :p

Lineage 2 before the nerf in the months before f2p it took literally YEARS to legitimately reach lvl 85.

You may be right. I gave up at lvl 35.

Debsylvania.7396:

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

Why? Its called microtransactions and future expansions.

Do you know how many gems powergamers are purchasing from Arenanet? Yeah, those impatient, cynical types. They don’t like waiting, and many of them are willing to pay $$ so they don’t have to. If you think Arenanet doesn’t care if those types of players run back to WoW, you’re wrong.

Birdy.4816:

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

I agree. Progression (treadmill) is what makes an RPG what it is. A well-masked treadmill is even better, but there has to be some kind of progression. Well-designed endgame progression will take months to complete. The current formula in GW2 just isn’t quite right (yet).

I actually love the way skills are structured in GW2, so I’ll disagree. But then again, I didn’t care for GW much.

Debsylvania.7396:

In another six months or year, we’ll know much, much more about how their vision is manifesting itself and in that timeframe it would be more reasonable to give the public’s input some credence. Now? Not so much.

The problem is, like it or not, gamers are terribly impatient. There won’t be a community left a year from now. Let’s not have this game go the way of SWTOR and WAR. It takes approx. 4 to 12 weeks to kill a fledgling MMO.

Defending the current state of the game is not the way to save it.

IanAwesome.3192:

The grind sounds crazier than it was back in Vanilla Aion and Tera ._.

There is no grind crazier than Vanilla Aion. :p

This is a tricky issue. On the one hand, yes the game is only 3 weeks old. On the other hand, elite players tend to eat through content faster than a rat can eat its way out of a cheese cage. If those elite players quit, its going to hurt the community because they will drag a ton of guildies with them to other games.

I know you people hate talking about WoW, but MoP comes out in a week, and if people are bored playing GW2 come next Tuesday, don’t think they won’t buy the expansion and switch games. I’ve seen this happen to too many MMOs. They start out great, but the company screws up end game progression, and that’s what sinks it. Once an MMO community is gone, it typically does not return. So there’s a small window of time Arenanet has to convince powergamers to hang around. Either a patch with some endgame content, or a promise of one to come in the near future.

I read multiple GW2 message boards, and I’m seeing the same complaint on every single one of them: the endgame progression is not sufficient/entertaining. No one wants to farm for hours on gear that just “looks” better, no one wants to WvW without some kind of progression.

Progression that matters post-80 is the thing that GW2 is lacking. I hope they can fix it quick.

I submitted a support request and was told no, but that the feature would be offered in the future. That was a few weeks ago. I would like a response on this issue as well. I hope they can tell us when this feature will become available.

Serp.3264:

This game does have progression, it just doesn’t make your character stronger. There are ranks in sPvP and in WvW you gain achievements for the feats you accomplish, as well as achievements for the PvE you accomplish (plus you can gain vanity items to customize your characters look and feel). It shouldn’t be a requirement to make your character more powerful just to feel like there is progression.

I would also like to point out that DAoC’s realm rank system was not available when the game first launched. Adding those abilities happened after the release. Let us not jump to conclusions that it will never be added.

-I disagree. You can’t really call it progression if its meaningless to your character. The whole point of an MMO is becoming a more powerful Hero. That’s what the leveling process is all about, and the crafting process. Try to define progression without “progress”.

-On your second point, I totally agree that Arenanet could add features to the game post-release that allow for WvW and PvE progression, as other games have done, and I am hoping that they do because I would like to play it for a long time.

Unfortunately, once the elite players (including many guild leaders) burn out, the casuals tend to follow. So the game needs to cater to both groups. Once my guildies quit on me, I’m not likely to keep playing.

Serp.3264:

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

You know what DAoC had that GW2 doesn’t? RvR progression.

What GW2 is missing is Endgame Progression.

WvW progression.
Raid progression.

That’s your endgame, folks. That’s what Arenanet needs to focus on in the future.

Realm ranks/trait/skill progression via WvW.
Dungeon Raid progression.

Without either of those, they have no endgame, except for the grind for legendaries. They do have that. But its not enough.

Serp.3264:

You can’t disregard huge aspects of the game like achievements, PvP, crafting, etc. If you focus purely on one aspect of this game, you will be disappointed no matter what you do. This game has a ton to offer, try going outside your comfort zone and trying PvP, achievement gathering, crafting, etc. This game doesn’t have to be just a rush to gain experience and gear (which I assume is what you consider “PvE” considering you don’t like achievements or crafting).

You can’t tell players what to enjoy. They like what they like, and whether you realize it or not, tons of players are into PvE raid progression. Arenanet can choose to offer that type of activity, or not, but if they choose not to offer it, they will lose the interest of some players.

That’s just reality. People play games to have fun, and if they aren’t having fun, they go elsewhere.

This is how WoW wins every time. Players get sucked back in because its the only game out there offering Dungeon/Raid progression that makes sense.

And tbh, I’m tired of WoW winning.

Here’s my problem with the article:

They are trying to convince gamers that GW2 has endgame, because endgame is part of the leveling experience. This is the same thing Bioware tried to do with SWTOR. Good luck with that.

Gamers know what endgame is. They know what type of content they expect at level 80, and trying to “re-program” players to some other concept is not going to work. I’m disappointed that Arenanet thinks the current endgame is sufficient. Its not. I don’t mind, I’m not in a huge hurry, but Arenanet needs to understand that players will expect more.

Here’s the MORE they need:

1) More dungeons/raids containing content that is challenging, and has some motivating factor (reason to run them). Progression, progression, progression.

2) More reasons to WvW and/or sPvP. Give us realm ranks, extra trait points for participating in WvW, skill points, an extra ability to work towards, but something we really care about. Something that matters.

In summary, we players already know what we expect the endgame to be, so don’t give us some B.S. about some “re-imagined” endgame, and expect us to buy into it.

Finally, nice work Arenanet, on the leveling process, zone designs & crafting systems. <3 the game so far (even if WvW kinda sucks).

I love that it takes a while to get legendaries. That not EVERY single thing in the game can be accomplished within a month. I know its frustrating for those of you who want everything now, and don’t want to work for it, but if you played MMOs back in the days of L2, Aion, etc, you would know what a real grind is.

You don’t really need the legendary anyway, its just something fun to work towards.

Kids these days…. they need instant gratification.

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