Guild Wars 2

Fox.1054:

Are we playing the same game? Dungeons are artificially long and grindy, but far from hard. The hardest part of the dungeons is trying to enjoy them, because they have been stretched out far too long for the content they offer and offer far too little intellectually compelling moments.

What I would call ‘hard’ was trying to run Domain of Anguish and Mallyx with a balanced setup in the first weeks it was released. Many people called it impossible, but it was a heck lot of fun to do! Why? Because it offered veriety and fluid gameplay, quick and deadly like it should be. Not kiting a mob for 2 minutes and then walking into the next mob rinse and repeat.

Um, you do realize that once you get the mechanics of the fights down, as well as everyone properly bringing the correct skills into a fight, dungeons only take 30-40 mins tops

Just did SE Story, and once we figured out the Kudu golem fight, hes pretty quick. (bring at least 1 spammable condition removal, some projectile protection / reflection abilities, and learn what each golem does, and its a breeze)

Syrellaris.9125:

@hellhound

I am not going to quote your entire message, just to annoying in this tiny forum postal area. Anyway ill just number em like you did.

Also, no it is not a learn to play issue. As I said before, I am not inexperienced in mmo’s and I never claimed wow mechanics worked here. I mentioned the dungeons in wow were too easy. Hence the reason I enjoy the harder challenge in this game…..

….Regardless sure I was frustrated, I hate dieing and wiping. However I also know that dungeons and such are a constant tuning process. they are not magically finished in the first few weeks of release and I do believe these dungeons require tuning.

And yet… myself and my guild can do the fight completely fine without a single death (a couple downed maybe). Other players here also have mention they have no problems with the instances.

When you have players who can complete the dungeon, consistently each time, then its not the dungeon, mobs, or the game, its the player.

Look, as I mentioned before, I was perhaps a bit harsh earlier, but, and I am saying this not to be mean or anything, is that you can succeed at them easily.

There is nothing wrong with the fight at all. These fights are not a problem provided you learn them, either through trial and error or through guides, or someone showing you how.

My guild is running the last path in AC explore tonight to get our achievement. If your not going to understand or argue with me, I guess I will have to show you then.

Let me take you on AC explore, and I will explain and show you why these are difficult, and yet how you can beat the encounter with no deaths.

1) The gargoyles were a priority to remove and they were removed. The fire still happens. It is in one of the 3-5 red rings she casts in such away they are nearly undodgeable. Again, this fire happens regardless. It is rather weak but it is there.

She doesnt put a fire effect that I have seen. Now if your talking about the poison wells (which she throws 3-5 of), not only will they put a long lasting potent poison condition on you, they do about 70 damage every 1/4th second while your in the well itself.

2) Yes i know my class has abilities that remove conditions, hell one of them even turns conditions into random boons. I know which ones they are. The problem is they have such a long cooldown and she casts poison so often, removing is pointless. btw I am a ranged class, moving to melee is not a good idea for me considering I do not have the vitality or toughness to sustain that long enough. But i shall try it with a different build later on.

Try to wait till your out of the AoEs before removing. If you just remove the condition while your still in the wells, it will just re-apply. I actually do this sometime, hence why I now bring 2 condition removals

as for commander Kohlen goes, It could be a bug but he does it quite often, even when your running up the stairs, not near him or in sight.

This I would report then. I dont really know what to say. It hasnt happened to my group as of yet, and thats all I can go off of

biggs.4702:

I’ve read through this entire thread so far and it’s been quite the humbling experience. I ran AC story mode for the first time the other night not really knowing anything about it with a group of friends and we basically death-zerged it, which was frustrating and unrewarding. Last night I ran CM story mode for the first time and it was easier, except none of us in the PUG had ever run it before so we spent a bit of time wandering around being lost, which was kinda funny.

When I saw the title of this thread, I figured it would be full of complaints on the one side and lol-l2p-nub-umadbro on the other side. But went ahead and read it anyway in case I found some gems of real wisdom, because even though I was frustrated, I also knew that the dungeons were “working as intended” and I’ve seen video footage of ArenaNet devs running them with members of the press and such, and essentially saying as much (sorry no links, just a memory in my head at this point).

I am… slowly… figuring this GW2 thing out and it is, indeed, totally different than everything I’ve learned from previous games and their mechanics. Learn to dodge, yes, but it’s more than that. Watching what the mob is doing and reacting with proper timing is key (difficult in a particle effects storm, granted). Knowing and using combo fields, weapon choices, and abilities that benefit the group is key, as others have said. I wasn’t doing any of these things except activating warbanner. The first time you run a dungeon, you don’t know what the mobs are going to do because you’ve never seen them before, so, granted, that’s difficult as well.

But really gives me hope is all the people in this thread who have run them successfully and are not just coming in here and laughing at everyone else who’s having a hard time, but are being truly helpful. Your numbers are proof enough against the complaints, but you’ve also provided great information to help those of us who are struggling figure it out. So, thank you.

This post.. brings me a huge smile =D

We didnt try to thin them out. We just dropped the barrels, target the carriers, and FF them down, pick up the barrel, and replace it. They dont run very far when FF’ed down

Its a waste of time running back to get another barrel FYI

I did this mode once before, and to be honest, the way we beat it was 2-fold.

1) Run up to the gate 5-man barrel carrying, using +protection and +aegis skills

2) Drop them, and then focus target the mobs carrying the barrels away and spam dropping the barrels back on the gate.

We eventually wore them down and inched barrels closer to the gate till all 5 were there

EverythingXen.1835:

I admit, “carried” was a too strong.

Basically if I’m required to dedicate a spot on my group for someone who has done it before and tell us all exactly what to do and what skills to take (one less spot for a friend or guildmate), or alternately read a guide out of game just to have a reasonable expectation of success for content designed for level 30 characters… /shrug.

Its the kind of thing I avoid MMOs for.

And your correct in a way. It was a bit easier knowing what we were getting into before the fights, and could slot or skills accordingly. (mass condition removal for the spider, blocks and reflections for Kholer, etc.)

Most of our enjoyment did actually come from trying the fights we never did before, which the only time was when we did the Asura path and beat the graveling burrows event / protect the ecto collectors.

Both bosses after that event was all brand new to us, and it was a blast learning those bosses.

Lokai.7850:

2: 1 shot insta gibbing: this is a big issue for me and probably ranks as #1 problem i have with the game right now. Idea that enemies should kill you for letting them touch you. There is no remorse, no second chances BAM dead end of story! now some like this idea because makes the game hard… however i am going to counter that with… being hard and feeling cheesey can go hand in hand. Are games are hard and feel rewarding like say Demon or Dark Souls, but the thing is…those games actually pretty good at teaching you the mistakes you’ve made. The problem with GW2 is that you die so fast, and so quickly that you dont have time to consider what you did wrong. red circles appear so fast and give a fraction of a second to respond, sometimes even hitting you with a CC effect moment it shows up so you cant avoid it. Idea that you should be punished for messing up is FINE! idea you should INSTANTLY die for making a mistake in early content is BAD! you need to ease players into the game, or have multiple difficulties, allow players to understand what they did wrong by giving them 3-4 or even 5 mistakes before killing them. Is biggest issue with GW2 right now, insta gibbing from certain specific attacks that have a long wind up is fine, like unblockables in tekken! if you get hit by one you deserved it! but in GW2…pretty much every attack in game will slaughter you instantly.

Um, I dont know how it is in other dungeons, but so far, there is no boss in the game that will insta-kill you.

Now, there are insta gib abilities that will drop you to a down state from full HP,, but thats not instantly killing you. (example: Look at the Lieutenant Kholer fight in AC explore with his harpoon attack)

One of the biggest things I, and my team, has learned is to recover downed players as quickly as possible. In fact, one of the key tactics that I would say is important above all else, is reviving downed players quickly.

I think this is actually intended and designed this way.

Orlandu.3781:

HellHound.5480:

Heya, not to argue here.

I actually agree with you on that the Story modes maybe could be tweaked a little bit simpler. To me, those modes should be your average dungeon (dont remove the difficulty, just let it be a little more forgiving)

And your right if I have been insulting to others. For which I apologize. Not to excuse my actions, I am frustrated at some of these posts.

I dont really know how I can nicely suggest a “um, sir player, not to be rude here, but it really is an issue of learning to play”.

Theres playing, and then really learning how to play. I dont know how simple I can make it, and no matter how I say it, its going to come across as offensive. But just because something is offensive doesnt mean its less true =/

I really appreciate the issue, and yeah, a great part of the issue is that people just don’t know what to do. So I think we’re in agreement that the first one or maybe two story modes should be a good place to figure the answers out. The complaints about exploration mode difficulty are less valid, I think. At that point, when you are launching into exploration mode, you can be expected to understand what you’re getting into, and that you’re probably going to die a lot as you make progress. But for that, something should be done to improve reward. Thanks for posting back.

I also appreciate your replying as well. Agree on explore mode, those are the optional hard modes, and as such should feel hard. I feel they are the game’s answer to a true raid (5-man raid?)

But thinking about it more, I do agree on what you say about story mode, including the first couple instances, to be more forgiving for players. I dont them to be trivial, but more as a stepping stone, and a learning process for players.

And while I do enjoy the other rewards for a properly cleared explore dungeon (got 1+ gold, 120k XP, tokens), your correct also in that the drops, per-say, could improve. I dont want to see orange gear for every boss, but perhaps green gear, with the occasional yellow, and an guaranteed yellow with the occasional rare orange for the end boss. Remove the blues in other words, and keep all the other rewards the same.

Imagine.8623:

Orlandu.3781:

Well, this thread is one of the most self-righteous smug-a-thons I’ve seen in a while. I am impressed, cryers of “lp2”. Your experiences and collective creativity and insight are surely representative of the vast majority of players, who have never experienced anything like these dungeons, having been raised playing soft mmos and been given no indication by the pve in this very game of what was to come inside AC. The place where my friendly mailbox sent me a letter, instructing me to travel there with some friends to check it out! Therein lies the biggest problem with the instances in GW2. The difficulty is good overall, but there isn’t much consideration in-game for the transition, and the community’s consideration is writ large in this thread, if you felt compelled to post merely to insult others.

Consider the plight of the average player. They have played WoW, perhaps even raided. Maybe some SWTOR. Games palatable to the masses, very soft. And now they are playing GW2. Things are different. Your quests are regional, and somewhat amorphous, they are merely one avenue of progression and not the whole city. The more exciting part are the group dynamic events. You get in with other players and do tough stuff! You are taught that in order to be rewarded, you must do as much damage as possible. If you don’t do enough damage, you get little or nothing. This is the strongest PvE message the game sends. You’re finally getting the hang of your class, and just got your elite skill! You get a letter in the mail, come to Ascalon Catacombs, I’ll even show you where it is on the map! And what players find is a solid brick wall. It isn’t hard to see why people get discouraged. At first, I’m certain it does feel insurmountable.

I think more should be done to help players adjust to the demands of dungeons. Ascalon Catacombs story mode is the real weak link in the chain. As a trial-and-error learning session, it is excessively punishing and frustrating. The beginning of the learning curve needs to be more gentle. After that, it’s pretty much fine, except that the rewards are unimpressive.

tl;dr – AC story mode should be more forgiving, rewards should be either larger or flashier, people should be more understanding.

Sooo… basically in you believe the game should be dumbed down to appeal to the masses.

How about… no?

Actually, the way I read his post was that he wasnt calling for a dungeon nerf, just commenting on some of the player’s, who have beaten these dungeons, attitudes

Orlandu.3781:

Well, this thread is one of the most self-righteous smug-a-thons I’ve seen in a while. I am impressed, cryers of “lp2”. Your experiences and collective creativity and insight are surely representative of the vast majority of players, who have never experienced anything like these dungeons, having been raised playing soft mmos and been given no indication by the pve in this very game of what was to come inside AC. The place where my friendly mailbox sent me a letter, instructing me to travel there with some friends to check it out! Therein lies the biggest problem with the instances in GW2. The difficulty is good overall, but there isn’t much consideration in-game for the transition, and the community’s consideration is writ large in this thread, if you felt compelled to post merely to insult others.

Consider the plight of the average player. They have played WoW, perhaps even raided. Maybe some SWTOR. Games palatable to the masses, very soft. And now they are playing GW2. Things are different. Your quests are regional, and somewhat amorphous, they are merely one avenue of progression and not the whole city. The more exciting part are the group dynamic events. You get in with other players and do tough stuff! You are taught that in order to be rewarded, you must do as much damage as possible. If you don’t do enough damage, you get little or nothing. This is the strongest PvE message the game sends. You’re finally getting the hang of your class, and just got your elite skill! You get a letter in the mail, come to Ascalon Catacombs, I’ll even show you where it is on the map! And what players find is a solid brick wall. It isn’t hard to see why people get discouraged. At first, I’m certain it does feel insurmountable.

I think more should be done to help players adjust to the demands of dungeons. Ascalon Catacombs story mode is the real weak link in the chain. As a trial-and-error learning session, it is excessively punishing and frustrating. The beginning of the learning curve needs to be more gentle. After that, it’s pretty much fine, except that the rewards are unimpressive.

tl;dr – AC story mode should be more forgiving, rewards should be either larger or flashier, people should be more understanding.

Heya, not to argue here.

I actually agree with you on that the Story modes maybe could be tweaked a little bit simpler. To me, those modes should be your average dungeon (dont remove the difficulty, just let it be a little more forgiving)

And your right if I have been insulting to others. For which I apologize. Not to excuse my actions, I am frustrated at some of these posts.

I dont really know how I can nicely suggest a “um, sir player, not to be rude here, but it really is an issue of learning to play”.

Theres playing, and then really learning how to play. I dont know how simple I can make it, and no matter how I say it, its going to come across as offensive. But just because something is offensive doesnt mean its less true =/

EverythingXen.1835:

I’d like to know how the average player supposed to know their class inside and out by the level AC gets pushed to me by the game…. especially since a vast majority of the content up to that point only requires kiting/circle strafing and pushing 1.

And if I have to be carried by some veteran player to run level 30 content, content which barely rewards either the vet or myself, why should I bother?

I wasnt carried, he was new to this dungeon completely. (Remember, there really is no huge difference in his gear or stats since they are downleveled).

Our veteran player? He was the 42 elementalist who had done this before

Couldnt have said it better myself lightrayne!

Xenith.2581:

The OP is correct. The “Story Mode” difficulty level of the 30 dungeon (AC) iskitten The degree of difficulty is on the level of endgame content and worst part about dungeons in this game, you get no great looking gear/weapons. If you’re going to make a dungeon this difficult, regardless of story mode or challenge mode, you need to have the NPC’s dropping lvl 30 armor sets that are kitten. Horrible dungeon design and I hope NCSoft take this thread and the relevant posts into consideration.

Still floored and amazed at players like you.

Ok, now im getting angry and frustrated. Not at the game, but at players like you and this kitten you spew.

And I hope NCSoft takes this thread and the relevant posts such as mine into consideration.

EDIT: Want to read about a successful AC dungeon run? (2 runs in fact), read it here

Darion Mallaven.9650:

Kryil.6045:

Dungeons start being ok as soon as guys STOP thinking their 20 year experience does help you at all in GW2.
This system requires a good teamwork, tactics and stuff.
Something that most MMOs are heavily lacking due to heaving one part removed by the tank/heal/dd groups.

That’s exactly why this design fails. Because there is noone who can actively tank for a sustained amount of time and there is noone who can keep heals up sufficiently enough.

That said, even a warrior tank/guardian tank can get one shotted due to the lack of proper defensive abilities that is actually required to take on a multitude of mobs at the same time.

In the first two dungeons, there are just simply way too many mobs in one location with no way around them. Take CM Explore mode as an example. You’ve got really tight quarter combat for about 90% of the time. In those tight quarters, you’ve got no chance when there are 10 mobs swarming you, not to mention the bugs connected to certain bosses and other ranged mobs in there.

The design is clearly flawed and i’m not talking from a wow player’s perspective but from a neutral standpoint here.

The holy trinity has worked for all other mmorpgs, and what this new system that gives us no dedicated tank/healer/dps actually does, is showing us why a holy trinity is needed.

The threat tables are just plain ridiculous as well.

In short, dungeon design = No control, just complete and utter chaos.

Taunts for everyone, or redesign the entire combat system. Plain and simple.

I’ve already had LOTS of friends quit the game due to the aforementioned reasons and i suspect a LOT more will do as well after they start getting into dungeons and seeing how much money they’re wasting on repair bills, by constantly being downed, and how little to no defensive abilities they have to make sure they stay alive.

Again, this was written from a neutral standpoint and i do believe i have some valid points here as well.

Im sorry, dont mean to taunt or upset you, but this kind of thinking is why many players are failing in the dungeons.

You are soo locked into the tank / healer / DPS mindset, that you literally can not think of anyway else.

And yet, there are quite a few players here who ARE finding away around it.

The trinity worked, but it was a crutch for most players. As well, other games had to re-define encounters to now HAVE to work with this system. This is a product spawned by recent MMOs.

And yet, going WAY far back before even EQ1 (which actually didnt really have tanks at the beginning. Warriors, Shadowknights, Paladins, etc. never had a dedicated taunt. Now they did have a skill that would make them fight the warrior, but it was hugely unreliable and not all that feasible).

But go back to paper D&D days. There were no roles of tanks, or dedicated healers, etc. While there were warriors and clerics, they were not defined into a single tank or healer role.

Combat encounters were all about tactics and teamwork, not lock a mob onto one character while everyone stands around to fight.

Someone even said it before: As an enemy, why would I wail on the person who has all the armor, when I can see the spell caster, who is more dangerous, back there. Why am I forced to fight this guy.

Lets put in reverse: What if in MMOs, as the players, you were forced to fight the huge HP and tanky mob and kill it before you can attack the casters or healers? Think about it, what if they made the mobs themselves use the trinity method on us players, and until the ‘tank’ mob died, the others were invulnerable?

You, as the player, would HATE this design.

Dungeons in GW2 now are like the fights in the D&D days.

And they are far from impossible. Im still getting amazed that players, who have comfortably now been locked in the trinity mindset, are now brain-dead to anything else.

Again, as I have repeated myself here, they are doable, and not only doable, are quite easy. How do I know? Cause I have done them, and can now do them easily after many trials, after having to understand what true teamwork and coordination is about, after un-learning what I have learned before when approaching these dungeons.

Until you become enlightened, so to speak, these dungeons will frustrate you, and you will not succeed.

I feel like I am an oracle, who has seen the truth, and now trying to get others to get past that veil over their eyes to see what I can only try describing here

Izithel.6853:

My only problem with dungeons is the ammount of one hit kill abilities or at least hard hitting abilities.
On most bosses they are obvious and with some practise you can easily dodge them.
But when normal trash kill you in two hits and you only got 14K HP as an ele and not enough endurance to dodge everything.

It get frustrating real quick.

This is where reading the mobs abilities come in handy.

For example, the Graveling Scavengers, underneath their healthbars it tells you what they do: Knock down and leaps.

The will give you a general idea of what they do, and so learn to slot Stability or Protection skills

Then comes commander Kohlen? or whatever his name is. This boss really uses a 1 shot gimmick attack that pulls you towards him. The visual animation for this is hard to see and there has been a few times it just pulled me away from behind a pillar.

kitten like that gets on my nerves. I am not an inexperienced MMO player, I know the benefits of team work and communication and yes dungeons like those in WoW, even the hard mode ones, were extremely easy to complete.

So yes, I do enjoy the harder challange these dungeons bring, but I also acknowledge that these dungeons require a few changes here and there. Tweaks if you will.

First, that is WoW. This is not WoW. Mechanics you learned there will not work here at all.

Second, you are frustrated, and feel the game needs to be tweaked, but its your skill that needs tweaking. Your not a bad player, just that I feel you have learned things from other games that you have to unlearn.

Again, give me your class, and I can name skills that have either an Aegis effect, a reflection effect, or if you get pulled, a Stability effect. Any of these will negate his harpoon. As well, you can LoS it, as he has quite a bit of windup. Stability will prevent the knockdown after you get pulled, so you can dodge or run out.

At first, yes, its hard to notice, but do it a few times, while being aware and paying attention (if your like me, I had a habit of being focused on my skillbar, to better my rotation with… this is deadly, dont do it).
Pay attention to the boss, not your skillbar. When you pay attention, even with all the effects, you can actually, and easily, see when he is about to cast it. This is when you throw up your Aegis or your reflection, or when you start dodging.

It requires finesse, but its quite easy. I can now fight Kholer without once going down or dead now by paying attention.

As for pulling behind a pillar, that is a bug that needs to be reported. I havent had this happen to me though, so possibly lag?

AC Explore requires your attention, awareness, coordination, teamwork, and finesse. The rewards though are well worth it, if you dont die a million times, it is rewarding!

Syrellaris.9125:

A learn to play issue? Hardly. I don’t mind a challenge and sure, these dungeons and specially exploration mode, give me that challenge but its not a learn to play issue.

It is a Learn to Play. You can either let me teach you, or you can bang your head on the wall and falsely believe its the game, not the player.

These dungeons are not end game, no matter how you look at it. The dungeons are just horrible untweaked and utilize horrible gameplay gimmicks to make it look hard.
It is nice that you have a nice big guild that likes to run dungeons using voice chat, but the majority of people Pug because of various reasons. For example the guild not being online, having different work hours etc.

I would say that for now, pugs are going to be frustrating. And its not really intended to be pugged. Its intended to be done with coordinated teams. Now, you can pug 5 good players who can coordinate well, but this is, by design, not intended to be pugged, nor is it intended that all players are promised to do these dungeons. (someday I will find that quote from one of the devs stating this)

These dungeons should be doable in Story Mode as a Pug (which I actually believe they are) and even in exploration mode, albeit with more coordination and communication. However it is a shame that bosses and even demi bosses that wield no loot require the use of weak gameplay mechanics to damage the players.

Agree on story mode, disagree on everything else. See above on Explore mode dungeons

AC exploration mode 2 for example. The first real hard hitting mob you face is the Queen spider. utilizing a weak gameplay mechanic of poison and what seemed to be fire(or whatever those strange fire explosions are) These poisons stick so long on you and bleed you out fast, specially if your a low HP class. Not perse a problem, except for the fact it casts like 3-5 rings in such a way you’re almost always caught in the middle of it and thus get hit. You can dodge it but, most of the time you’ll barely make it and with the low 2 point dodge system..well options are limited.

This right here tells me that you have a Learn to Play issue. All of the issues you ran into above, could have been solved on your own if you use awareness.

1) The ‘fire’ things you mention… do you know where they come from? hint: Its not from the boss. Answer: They are gargolye traps on the walls. You can kill them to stop them from throwing fire. In fact, when you go into this fight, kite the boss till you kill the gargoyle traps first.

2) Give me your class, and I can name 3-4 skills that are condition removals for you. This is another ‘L2P’ issue. Read your classes skills, all of them.
Other than the fire putting the burning condition on you, the only other condition you get is poison. This is where your condition removal skills come in. Learn to adapt and change your skills based on the fights. Yes, if you dont remove the poison, it will kill you quick.
(As a guardian, I switched my last 2 skills to ‘Purging Flame’ and ‘Smite Condition’, both condition removal skills).

3) Were you aware that she places the poison wells at a distance? What happens at melee range? can you figure this one out? Answer hint: Stay within melee range of her, she doesnt hit that hard, and I think its the reason why she has a weak melee attack

There you go, I hope you learn 3 tips from me. If your whole group can do this, she is a breeze. Last hint: If your teammates do go down, try to make it a priority to bring them back up. its rather quick. But dont bother with dead players

Im sorry, but I just dont understand how you players are not getting it.

I truly TRULY understand the frustration, I do. And I was just like you my first go on AC Explore. Didnt even finish it, and was mad that I lost 20s in repairs.

I hate to be that guy, but it really, REALLY is a Learn to Play issue. It is.

I know alot of you are frustrated and come here to complain, and even try to logically back up your claims on the how the dungeons are un-tweaked, and I do get it.

But you truly have to Learn to Play.

I am not saying you all are bad players, but you HAVE to get your mind out of the box for these.

And yes, these dungeons ARE End Game. These are your Raids, persay.

And not like raids in other games, where gear progression makes the previous raids a joke, but they bring to mind the raids of old, EQ1 or Vanilla WoW style. You need coordination.

Anet is NOT expecting, NOR promising, that every player is going to experience them. I seriously need to find that quote =(.

But please understand, it truly is a learn to play issue.

I didnt get it, and I hated to hear it, but once I did learn, and I mean LEARN what all my skills actually do, how to utilize boons, CC, tactics correctly, these dungeons are a breeze, they really are.

And when they are a breeze, and your not taking a million deaths, they are quite rewarding. See Here

I will give this to you guys…

Come with me, let me lead your group. Bring voice chat, and I will lead you through AC explore. I will teach you some things I have learned playing these, and you will see, WILL see, that these dungeons are only as difficult as you let them be.

Whitewolf.9736:

If people don’t want to corpse run then there are only a couple of solutions I can think of.

One is to currently keep it as it is allowing people to learn the encounter there and then over time.

Or the other would be to make the fights shorter but harder not allowing people who have died to re enter essentially making it a ‘get it right first time or the fight will reset’.

Technically, there is one fight that you cant really zerg or it resets.

In AC Explore, after Lt. Koeller, on the Asura path, there is a fight where you have to protect 2 ecto collecters. Problem is, is that if the collectors die, the fight resets.

You cant zerg it either. If any 1 of your teammates dies, then you will be overwhelmed by the burrows, and they will kill the collectors.

This is one fight that you can not zerg. You have to get it right in one go, or its a do over

Melphina.9035:

HellHound.5480:

Efaicia.3672:

Grabby.8704:

GW2 dungeons definitely have a different set of skills needed than dungeons in other games. I think it may be compounded because the PVE gameplay outside of dungeons seems pretty familiar to people – hard hitting weapons and quick kills are the way to go in the world.

It’s best to think of the dungeons like you would for a pvp build. Focus on survivability and utility. Work as a team and use your tools to get combos, control and stun your enemies, use environment features to block Line- of- Sight, and don’t assume that anyone can tank it for you. Kiting will almost always work better.

Slows and swiftness are extremely valuable as well… using them, you can control who the boss or trash is chasing or attacking to make sure that no one person is taking all the heat.

It is hard at the beginning… but it’s not a design problem as much as it is just a different game than you were playing before. (assuming you were used to WoW, SWTOR, or any of the other heads to that hydra)

Please folks, read this. and then when you are done read it again. We are playing a different game. This is not a lvl through dungeon queue spamming while you stand around in town game.

Consider it like this. Dungeons are this games END GAME. Do you expect to go into an END GAME raid instance in any other game with halfkitten gear/spec and expect to do good? If you have played end game in any way shape or form in any other game, you would not. Do not expect to do it here.

This is definately a learn to play issue. People are completing these dungoens repeatedly! My husband did them several times in a row last night in about 3 hours worth of play to make some money back after having purchased all his lvl 80 exotic gear. Without ever wiping!! If the dungeons were horribly scaled and impossible for your average joe why is it all these cassual gamers that even i know personaly are doing them repeatedly?

The answer is, they are not over tuned or un doable. They are jsut right and people who are having a hard time need to learn a bit mroe about thier classes and how to use them in a structured group environment.

This person speaks the truth!

Im sorry, but every one of you complaining about the dungeons seriously needs to get it together. They are tough, and tough for a reason. I cant find it, but one of the devs quoted that they are the End Game currently. And I for one love the challenge they bring.

Seriously you complainers, get it together!

Your high damage build, expecting to only use 3 of your favorite skills, is NOT going to work.
Your running around like a headless chicken, expecting to not have to communicate and use teamwork, is NOT going to work.

Learn combo fields
Learn your class itself
Learn all your skills, and what they are for
Learn which weapons and skills are necessary for specific fights
Learn which tactics are needed for different fights (including trash pulls)
Learn to adapt those skills for different fights (one may be heavy condition removal, another high protection, another needing CC)
Learn how to work and support your team (everyone can support)

And lastly, the rewards are GREAT! But IF you can learn how to play these dungeons.

As my guild learned last night, we got over a gold, plus tokens, plus gear, plus huge XP gains when we didnt have to take 20-30 deaths.

I cant agree with “great” rewards in anyway shape or form. Maybe for leveling they could be decent but for max level players they hardly even register. While the exp and gold are nice the gear is not and the tokens are the real value, however, it tkaes 180 to get an items and hundreds of runs to get a full set + weapons. Overall only the most dedicated will get something beyond the CoF speed run set.

Nothing wrong with that, that I see.

It brings back the days of yore when dungeons (in this case, I would call these 5-man raids) were an accomplishment. Im sorry, but I dont really see why every player is promised that they will experience these.

I understand fully, as a player, wanting to see all the content. Going back to UO or EQ1, I remember longing to see the Planes of Power, or other high end raids, and never experiencing them.

Did it suck? It did, but then nothing is as fulfilling and rewarding than overcoming that challenge, getting better as a player and seeing the content, then beating the content.

Granted though, in most MMOs of old, it wasnt based on your skill as a player, but time invested + items.

I like how this game brings back those challenges like in EQ1 or vanilla WoW, without require time investment or items, but skill in players.

Its a rewarding and fresh change!

Raging Bull.5048:

I agree with the OP, especially when he uses the term “cheap tactics” because that’s what they really are.

Simplistic, shallow mechanisms: mobs hit for a huge amount of damage, and they have huge HP pools. Other than that they do nothing special, really.

I LOVE difficult content. Like, really difficult. But difficult in terms that I must use my intelligence and careful strategic planning, along with a tight team work to overcome an obstacle. They way it is now – it’s just chaotic. That’s exactly what bothers me in WvWvW too, but that’s another topic entirely.

So make us think, make us plan, make us discover – we can take it, I promise.

Maybe, somewhat, a little bit, agree.

Its not entirely chaotic. Yeah, for the very first fight you have where you never seen the boss, it can be, but you learn to adapt to it. I have 2 examples:

1) Lt. Koeller in AC Explore
Alot of players complain he is a ‘cheap tactic’ boss. And if you dont know what your facing, or how to read the boss, he is the first one new players are going to face and then get steamrolled on… and then complain

First time I faced him, I was in a pug, and this boss pretty much gave us 10+ deaths. We ended up zerging him sadly, but man, was it a waste of silver in repairs.

But I soon learned this boss. He hits hard, but even with my glass cannon build, he only does 1/3rd of your HP on regular hits.

You learn to read his wind-up for the harpoon throw, and by last night in my guild run, when we have seen him a couple times before, we learned to start rotating Aegis and reflections. Once you have this nailed down (you can also LoS him), he is an easy and quick fight.

But learning this was half the fun!

2) Ravaging Graveler, end boss in the Asura path in AC (if you can reach him)
Now this boss, our group never met him. To reach him, you have to pass that graveler burrows event where you protect the collectors (that event requires finesse!)

So, we never met him, and he wiped the floor with us.

But quickly enough, you start to read his pattern. And also, he doesnt run this pattern 100%, he actually switched it up a couple times on us, but basically he does this: He winds up his roar, then starts roaring. Boulders start raining down randomly from the ceiling, and you only have a second to get out of the circles where they are going to land.

Once he finishes this, he then will breath in for one final roar right after (not always though!), and anyone caught in a 180 degree frontal cone of him will be one shotted to a downed state. Took a few deaths for us to figure this out, but it was a blast finding out.

The other thing he does, and is not part of the roar, rocks falling, roar, blast, is that he will tunnel under the ground, choose a groupmember, and then make a beeline to him. As long as you dodge the moment he reaches you, you wont be one shotted to a downed state.

But learning these was alot of fun! And it did take a bit of thinking and planning as well =)

Xenon.4537:

Gray.9650:

shaidyn.4016:

I can’t count how many great sword warriors I’ve seen jump into pug dungeons with their full glass cannon build and rage when they get wrecked. 5 signets and all traits/gear pushing damage. They charge, hit hundred blades, and get theirkitten handed to them.

so a lot of bossfights aren’t melee-unfriendly or just plain suicide trying to dodge stuff when you can’t see any circles under all the effects or trying to see a move the boss telegraphs in that big shiny explosion of light?

I’m curious how better gear/traits help you with these mechanics…

My friend can solo tank mobs in AC explorable. In fact it made the dungeon so easy, we cleared it in like an hour with no wipes. Maybe they need to nerf guardians… Or maybe more guardians/warriors could learn to appreciate the usefulness of a defensive spec and a mace/shield and 2H hammer.

Also this ^

Gray.9650:

shaidyn.4016:

I can’t count how many great sword warriors I’ve seen jump into pug dungeons with their full glass cannon build and rage when they get wrecked. 5 signets and all traits/gear pushing damage. They charge, hit hundred blades, and get theirkitten handed to them.

so a lot of bossfights aren’t melee-unfriendly or just plain suicide trying to dodge stuff when you can’t see any circles under all the effects or trying to see a move the boss telegraphs in that big shiny explosion of light?

I’m curious how better gear/traits help you with these mechanics…

False.

Did 2 of the 3 paths in AC explore (Charr path, then Asura path) and forgot to bring ranged weapons. Ended up doing them as a greatsword / mace + shield guardian the entire time just fine as long as you use the teamwork, tactics, and skills correctly.

Please see my other thread.

Efaicia.3672:

Grabby.8704:

GW2 dungeons definitely have a different set of skills needed than dungeons in other games. I think it may be compounded because the PVE gameplay outside of dungeons seems pretty familiar to people – hard hitting weapons and quick kills are the way to go in the world.

It’s best to think of the dungeons like you would for a pvp build. Focus on survivability and utility. Work as a team and use your tools to get combos, control and stun your enemies, use environment features to block Line- of- Sight, and don’t assume that anyone can tank it for you. Kiting will almost always work better.

Slows and swiftness are extremely valuable as well… using them, you can control who the boss or trash is chasing or attacking to make sure that no one person is taking all the heat.

It is hard at the beginning… but it’s not a design problem as much as it is just a different game than you were playing before. (assuming you were used to WoW, SWTOR, or any of the other heads to that hydra)

Please folks, read this. and then when you are done read it again. We are playing a different game. This is not a lvl through dungeon queue spamming while you stand around in town game.

Consider it like this. Dungeons are this games END GAME. Do you expect to go into an END GAME raid instance in any other game with halfkitten gear/spec and expect to do good? If you have played end game in any way shape or form in any other game, you would not. Do not expect to do it here.

This is definately a learn to play issue. People are completing these dungoens repeatedly! My husband did them several times in a row last night in about 3 hours worth of play to make some money back after having purchased all his lvl 80 exotic gear. Without ever wiping!! If the dungeons were horribly scaled and impossible for your average joe why is it all these cassual gamers that even i know personaly are doing them repeatedly?

The answer is, they are not over tuned or un doable. They are jsut right and people who are having a hard time need to learn a bit mroe about thier classes and how to use them in a structured group environment.

This person speaks the truth!

Im sorry, but every one of you complaining about the dungeons seriously needs to get it together. They are tough, and tough for a reason. I cant find it, but one of the devs quoted that they are the End Game currently. And I for one love the challenge they bring.

Seriously you complainers, get it together!

Your high damage build, expecting to only use 3 of your favorite skills, is NOT going to work.
Your running around like a headless chicken, expecting to not have to communicate and use teamwork, is NOT going to work.

Learn combo fields
Learn your class itself
Learn all your skills, and what they are for
Learn which weapons and skills are necessary for specific fights
Learn which tactics are needed for different fights (including trash pulls)
Learn to adapt those skills for different fights (one may be heavy condition removal, another high protection, another needing CC)
Learn how to work and support your team (everyone can support)

And lastly, the rewards are GREAT! But IF you can learn how to play these dungeons.

As my guild learned last night, we got over a gold, plus tokens, plus gear, plus huge XP gains when we didnt have to take 20-30 deaths.

axeN.7086:

What do people find AC explore the hardest one to do?

Seriously just take the second path at the beginning and it will just take 18-23min with decent people. There is NO boss that you will die on if you just dodge and people know how to root & revive downed state.

Farmed this instance yesterday and I bought this for my 390 badges.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2cenr5x.jpg

Agreed, but we have to say, our sense of accomplishment in completing the 3rd path, which I believe is the hardest, was immense!

I know tonight we are going to try the first path and get our achievement for completing all the paths + story mode

RaZaC.1963:

Just wondering, what level would you suggest for doing this? i understand everyone gets downleveld to 35 but still the stats on weapons and armor stay the same right? And besides that you also gain more traitpoints when your higher level which can make things a whole lot easyer, right? ?

This is true, and we did have 1 level 80 with us. I did this at level 61, we had a level 53, and a level 42. While I can see that the level 80 may have more traits and skills to bring, his stats got reduced to level 35 gear. All of our stats did

Painking.4703:

People aren’t complaining that they’re impossible, They’re complaining that the obscene difficulty of the dungeon does not match the measly reward you get. And then the dread you feel when you realize you have to grind it if you decide you look the armor sets/a lot of the weapons.

The rewards are quite nice if you do well. Like I mentioned, 1 gold is nothing to sneeze at in this game.

First run took about an hour and 10 minutes, the second run took about an hour and 25 minutes.

Forgot to mention:

If you want to read a diary of our run (both Charr and Asura, with pictures!), you can read them here on our guild’s forum page

Also, if you want to know indepth on how our 2 runs went last night, you should be able to read it here at my guild’s forum page

Hello guys,

Lately, been browsing these forums and have heard alot of complaining from players that dungeons are too hard, that they require zerging, etc. And people point to AC Explorable as the hardest one at the moment…

Heres a spoiler for you all out there: These dungeons are completely fine!
But they do require finesse and, hate to be the one to say this, you have to know your class inside and out, and know how to play. Lastly, you have to come prepared to accept the fact that your skills and weapons are going to change based on the needs of the fight as well as working with the group.

Just last night, my guild, all of us somewhat new, has been having a couple of players (including me) interested in doing dungeon explore modes. And last night, we started on AC Explorable.

Btw, I am a Human Guardian, who forgot to bring range weapons, so ended up with my Greatsword / Mace+Shield swaps during all this.

All of us had been here before once, in pugs, and a few had cleared one of the paths. Myself, I had been here before, and never got past the “protect the collectors” part of the Asura path. We kinda knew what we were facing, but nothing too major.

So Hint #1: You have to know what to expect. Be it from another person who has been here before, or an online guide. For us, we only knew how the first 2 bosses worked (Spider Queen, Lt. Koller) somewhat, and as such, we chose the Charr path (the easiest of the 3) and proceeded.

Facing the Spider Queen, we knew that the room she is in has the gargoyle placements, and that she has a devastating poison ability. So Hint #2: Learn what ALL your skills do, and use them accordingly. You have to, as a group, tactically know what you need. Myself, I brought 2 condition removals (1 of them a group type), and my skill that gives group Aegis (not counting my Virtues). So did everyone else as well.

And guess what? We cleared the queen with nary a problem. Granted there were a few who went into downed state, but, and heres Hint #3: You have to be quick to revive downed players, but leave dead players dead. We didnt die on the fight, but whenever we went down, someone was quick to help bring them back up. You learn that alot of these bosses abilities dont outright kill you, but many will outright put you in a downed state in one shot. Im starting to see the beauty of the downed state, in that it makes it devastating, and feel devastating to the player, but not actually knock you out of the fight. This is where teamwork is hugely important

And here I will end this, before it turns into a story. If you want to read more about our guilds run (btw, we ran it a second time, this time choosing the supremely hard Asura path, and still came out on top! We ended up doing the last 2 bosses without any guides, as none of us had beat the burrow event before. It was fresh and new!)

But the advice I can give you players, aside from the hints above, is the following:

You have to work as a team, and you HAVE to learn the play your character well (not perfect, but well).

We all maybe took a couple deaths here and there overall, and did, at one point, completely wipe and fail a boss fight, but overall I think, between both runs (the charr path and the asura path) I took 5 deaths. We all ended the night with about 1 gold, 130k XP, and 60 Ascalonian Tears.

These dungeons DO reward you, if you play them right!