Guild Wars 2

akaCryptic.2389:

Thanks for the replies. I switched to 06206 and it seems more useful in pvp. I still overextend sometimes and get too aggressive which results in me being focused. Also how do i decide whether to rez an ally or gtfo? Sometimes i get cleaved to death and sometimes i can pull it off.

You answered your own question. If you’re going to get cleaved heavily, don’t try. If you’re not, try. Usually you only want to risk it if there is only 1 opponent, and you can res while they try to stomp, or when your opponent(s)’ collective damage is not enough to present a threat. In a team fight, you really only want to even consider trying if you have an elementalist or guardian with you, who can provide protection while you res with them and any other allies in the area. Also being mindful of positioning can alert you to whether it’s possible to get a res off and escape dying i.e. is the downed ally near you and other allies, and are the enemy players a bit too far away to start stomping and cleaving immediately?

It sounds like you’re either not using your auto attack enough, or staying in a fight too long. You need to manage that initiative so you can always either stealth or infiltrator’s arrow away.

In bigger fights, D/P to skirmish the freecasters around the edge. SB to bomb the middle. When someone reaches 50% health and you can end them, then swap to D/P. Be lined up already, black powder, heartseeker+steal/signet/shadow step, backstab, drop them. Leave a blinding field there and cleave or pressure another target, interrupt banners, or get out. If you have weapon swap after downing someone, swap and lay a poison field to slow revival attempts and spam cluster bomb.

When you’re going to be beaten, you’re already beaten. Leave. Survive to enforce somewhere else.
Don’t overextend without cool downs. One wrong move and you’re a goner.
Pick your fights, and engage on your terms, not theirs’.

Rav.9475:

Hi,

First time posting in the super-friendly Thief forum so please be gentle!

I have a similar question but specific to sPvP. Started playing my Thief a few days ago after about 6 months and am using the S/D 20066 build. Yes, I know it’s not meta, but I am playing at a low level and I just prefer the game play over D/P.

So my question is (remembering I am still a Thief noob) which is better (read: more forgiving):-

1. Power of Inertia, Strength Runes and Signet of Agility

or

2. Hard to Catch, Pack Runes and Shadowstep?

Any advice is most welcome.

It’s not as simple as 1 or 2. In fact, in this case I would advise going for a mix of those 2 options.

Never hard to catch. It can port you into the middle of the fight from the outskirts, into a cc, into burst, and it can interrupt your flow. Furthermore, if you did get ported somewhere you really don’t want to be, you’re still disabled and vulnerable. You need to take a moment to recognise where you are, factor those new conditions in, and react to that instead of just the cc effect.

I always say pack runes. I’ve used them since before they were even considered in the meta, back when everyone was lyssa and ogre, and since the rune update months back they’ve been my permanent rune set.

Signet of agility is great both at higher level to deal with even 1v2 scenarios and avoid a lot of damage, as well as serving as a panic button for beginners. Concern dodged too much? Reset your endurance. So I’d definitely recommend this.

Shadow step is great for beginners too. In fact you’ll probably wonder how you can play without it once you’ve run with it for a time. I personally don’t use it, favouring the shorter cooldown and to-target port of infiltrator’s signet, but for a beginner I would recommend shadow step.

Because it tastes so darn good.

Back stab is so OP you shouldn’t even need to land it once to kill him. In fact, it’s so OP that so much of the coefficient is wasted even on a full HP target, that it’s not worth the resources to use it. It should be nerfed to make it viable.

Strength will always make you hit higher. Pack will always make you crit more often, and offer fury, swiftness and one stack of might to you and nearby allies in combat.

Rune to rune?
Strength increases your maximum damage, with a direct damage modifier. It offers +5% damage while under the effects of might, which is a pretty much a sure thing, and I’m lazy, so call it+5% permanently, i.e. *1.05.
Pack increases your chances of hitting higher, with precision. Critical hits are increased by 50% at least, because that is the base critical damage. That is *(1+0.5). Pack’s bonuses offer 50% up-time of fury, and +125 precision. 50%Fury+125Precision is an average of 15.95% critical chance permanently, i.e an additional *0.1595 of hits will be critical. Those hits will be increased by at least 50% critical damage. 0.1595*0.5=0.07975, i.e. *(1+0.07975).
Pack wins by 2.975%.

It’s not quite that simple though, because damage modifiers stack. That is, two 10% modifiers aren’t +20%. They are +21%. The more modifiers, the more effective each new modifier is. So if you have a build with a lot of modifiers, Strength runes might give you more damage over time as well as a higher maximum hit. If you don’t, or you have a lot of critical damage and or reliance on critical hit-triggered sigils or food, Pack runes might give you more damage over time as well as more critical hits.

No matter the result, the 50% up-time of fury and swiftness will benefit nearby allies as well as yourself, unless they already have 100% up-time on those boons. (The 1 stack of might Pack runes offers is trivial.)

So you see, no one can really tell you what is best without a lot more information - what your stats are, what you’re doing, where you are, who you’re with, what they are running etc. Hopefully this is enough information for you to decide for yourself though.

For PvP/WvW specifically though, I would take either of those runes over the popular alternatives, Ogre and Pirate, because the NPC can keep you in combat when you want out, and enemies can bounce projectiles off it to damage you more, or to hit you when you’re in stealth.

I am no stranger to honors, and would most graciously accept this gentleman’s title. If it pleases you, you may consider this an application. In fact, I am writing this very moment in the shadow of The Gentleman’s Diploma of the highest order, awarded to me by her Royal Majesty the Queen herself, for services it would not be gently of me to disclose, lest I draw unsolicited attention to myself. I would not I suffer you the injustice of stealing the spotlight in such a tactless manner; a gentleman’s theft must be elegant and subtle, effective and efficient, calculated and precise, and preferably discussed over tea. Similarly, the acquired item must be handled in a gently fashion. It should not be squandered, but used with consideration and respect – made the most of, in honour of its former owner. If there is no honour among thieves, then we are stealing from ourselves that which is most precious. Remember my comrades: however many a swing, strike or parry a situation demands, the pen remains forever mightier than the sword.

Warm, respectful regards,
Impact.

P.S. Regarding the aforementioned gentleman’s theft: I stole the statue of BarnabeJonez.6023; undetected of course, during a high-security event. Nothing personal old bean, I just happened to be passing through.

http://s21.postimg.org/ss4154kh3/qjtr2.jpg

It’s not just when you do bad, it’s when you do good as well. People don’t like being beaten - understandable. But some people feel the urge to prove this to you by whispering you and making excuses, often ending in an insult - the most common being noob, nub and scrub, but worse ones are sometimes made. Some of these people do come across as rather dim witted though, to be fair. It’s like not only are they behaving like trolls, but also share the mental capacity of one. Perhaps they are really just angry at themselves.

Anyway, the problem is ANet only do what they can in response to reports - there’s nothing else they can do really - and threads like this only feed the egos of those people.

Only the other day some guy I killed whispers me after a match - and I quote - "let me gues without attack from stealth and evade spam you hasnt the skill." (I saved it because the things he said were actually quite amusing). Well, so that means with stealth and evades I have skill, but without them I have none? Like, I can’t gank from stealth, or evade burst if I can’t enter stealth or evade. Well, duh. Of course, he refuses to accept - despite being a D/P thief and it being perfectly fine to do so - that he was the one always engaging in stealth, and that I, being S/D not running acro, had evades equal to his evades and blinds, and actually didn’t engage him from stealth once so he had to have been complaining about stealth from thief stolen skill + surprise shot with short bow /facepalm. He further insisted that shadow refuge, which we both had and both used throughout the match, is a noob skill that cowards use, and that he did not use it because he is not a coward. So my skill is my skills, and without my skills I have no skill (well done), it’s ok for him to use stealth but not for me, he has intelligently selected a utility skill that he never because it is cowardly, and when he does use it he doesn’t actually use it.

My point is, there is just no talking to these people. They either lack the ability to reason, are trolls, or are genuinely unpleasant people. Threads like this is what they want. The thief I was just talking about even told me to go and cry on the forums, even though he was clearly the one who was upset, and I had absolutely nothing to complain about. Just treat them like they’re missing something and helpfully explain to them what they need to do to improve and they’ll eventually just tell you to shut up and stop pestering you, or block them right off the bat.

Win one point at a time, and spawn camp the engi respawns. Force them to drop their turrets miles away from the points, or die.

Res ally, steal on the enemy trying to stomp to interrupt while ressing.

Stomp enemy, steal on resser to interrupt while stomping. Well timed the downed will think they are about to get up and won’t mist/port.

Delay a cap on a point you decapped a bit, then leave. Drop Infiltrator’s Return on the way. Port back from behind an obstruction (wall/fence on Forest, wall/rocks on Legacy) where they think you’re going to join a team fight. Decap them before they realise what you’ve done or can get back.

Stand over the downed enemy and infiltrator’s arrow away. Press interact immediately to start stomping. Port back with steal or signet to land the stomp.

Vs. opponents that dodge almost randomly/face roll evade like condi ranger where landing your steal isn’t just succeed or fail but live or die to those conditions, use steal after landing immobilise from infiltrator’s strike.

Press flanking strike right after an enemy S/D thief does so yours hits and their’s gets evaded.

Withdraw + weapon swap to cancel the roll. Good for keeping yourself in range when you want to swap weapons anyway but not go defensive, and for healing inside shadow refuge.

Pre-cast flanking strike on the buildings on Khylo to turn it over to larcenous strike.

Use withdraw to escape immobilise even if you don’t need the heal. It could save you more health that it can give back.

About face + withdraw for covering ground quickly / gap closing.

Dancing dagger on the enemy trebuchet when a D/P thief or mesmer goes into stealth.

Jump+infiltrator’s strike to make infiltrator’s return not port you back.

Heartseeker/cluster bomb in throw gunk. This one isn’t really a tip or trick but a lot of thieves don’t do it.

Dancing dagger in throw gunk can stack quite a bit of confusion.

Dancing dagger inside shadow refuge if you’re S/D trying to fight on point in 1v2 holding a cap for backup. Lots of life steals.

Target+steal quickly (+agility signet to cleanse blind if blinded) when surprise jumped by another thief.

Don’t think just press steal or infiltrator’s signet when focusing a thief or mesmer and they dissapear but you still have them targeted and are in the stronger position.

Stealth in the open where an enemy player sitting on a point can see you to force them to stay on that point for a bit longer.

Always always always be aware of where the enemy squishies are. Both for survival (they don’t surprise you) and so you can gank them before they gank your allies.

Vs. downed guardians and engis that have their #3 skill soon, cloak and dagger, swap to shortbow and blind them with infiltrator’s arrow so the knockback misses. You can also use infiltrator’s arrow to blind them while an ally stomps, but it requires very good timing.

Vs. downed elementalist, stealth, count to ~3, then start the stomp. If you’re lucky you’ll stomp them immediately after they exit vapour form.

Vs. downed mesmer, stealth, count to 2-3, then start the stomp. If you’re fortunate they’ll reappear close enough to you that your stomp will finish them.

This whole cool down business has been discussed in depth in numerous places, on numerous occasions. I’m too tired to entertain you by spending yet more time explaining thief mechanics. If you truly want to get somewhere, you’ll search for the information yourself. Else, if you simply just wish to moan, no amount of reason and logic will convince you of the facts.

I could literally spend the rest of this year explaining away complaints taken out of context (leaving out aspects of other classes in order to claim thief is OP). Each time I explain away one, someone else will come along with "actually, the issue was <insert complaint> all along!" And again after that one is explained, and again, and again, until new people come along and make the same complaints that were addressed months before, but refuse everything that was posted because it wasn’t posted in response to their concerns directly, because /logic. By that time the people that made the same complaint months ago have since learned better from actually playing and not whining, but of course do not dare come back to point out how wrong they were. The cycle continues.

Edit: Sorry if I come across a bit hostile, I’m dead on my feet.

Swagger.1459:

you said things were balanced and gave your reasons. my response was that things were not balanced and gave my reasons. I’m sorry you don’t understand that.

I think it would do you some good to click that link I posted and read it.

gl and hope you learn something.

It doesn’t matter how much you want it to be the case, that version of events remains incorrect. Once again, I merely stated they were balanced. I did not give reasons for anything being balanced or unbalanced. I don’t pretend to know what the devs are thinking. You’re trying to argue against something that doesn’t exist, and for some reason selected me to be your opposition. I’m not going to argue for something I never said. You are extremely lost, and all you seem to have to say for yourself is, effectively, “No you!”

Rome.7124:

Impact.2780:

You have to remember though that balance is aimed more toward higher levels of play than that where players ignore shadow refuge. By higher level, I mean potential-wise, not the devs saying “Hmm, Bob seems competent. Let’s balance around him.”

sure, then Anet needs to look like WHY necros, rangers and mesmers are not represented in the higher tiers. Certainly choosing thieves over the other 3 classes have something to do with it to fill the last spot, no?

That logic is so badly flawed. Thief isn’t the only class seen in the competitive scene, nor is it the most common.

A thief could keep up with that, but following that distance will likely get him killed for over reaching toward that ranger and his allies he would most likely be running to. Ranger is outmatched in the mobility department though, because it does not have the ports. It might have the range, which makes up for it to some extent - for example not needing to go all the way to a point to join the fight, but if it’s going for a decap, it needs to get all the way there. It will be slower, and very easily spotted disengaging/crossing a point to get to its destination, whereas a thief can cloak and dagger before disengaging, or shadow step right across a point.

It does lack cleave though yes. It can still spike down from a distance, much like a mesmer, but it doesn’t have a poison field for enemy res attempts, and its ranged AoE (longbow 5) is lame. To cleave or use maul as the only AoE it has requires getting in to where it might not be easily able to get back out.

1) Might stacks from allies aren’t from lengthy cool downs.
2) The only requirement is landing the skill, and it being a critical hit. No special circumstances. (Armour difference and might stacks again, you know - although that formula showed a bit over 5k on a mesmer with no buffs whatsoever). I added those in additionally because the point was "it can," nothing more, nothing less.
3) Oh yeah, I’ve been for 10k with a backstab in PvP before. On a squishy of course. It was a D/P 6/6/0/0/2 signet might stack build that hit me. Dude got me twice before I figured what he was using, and spent the rest of the match hunting and killing him over and over. That’s how it goes with extremely high risk builds. The guy presented 0 threat for most of the game.
4) I am a fan of sarcasm despite it being the lowest form of wit, but not in a way that forces someone to have to clarify once again. I never said rangers would replace thieves. As long as thieves continue to excel at mobility, their place in PvP will be secure.

Eyia Hellhide.7320:

Zero Day.2594:

Impact, why do you bother?

Mm?
Really, Impact.
Educating randoms on forums is not the best spend time. :P

I know but I often overestimate people’s ability to understand reason and logic, and end up spending a great deal of time on trying to help them get it. If it’s not an endless cycle of reminding them what they’re arguing was countered a couple of paragraphs ago, it’s someone trying to alter the entire history of a discussion so they don’t have to say they made a mistake.

champ.7021:

Dont some stats change between pvp and pve? for example people messed up thief rotations in pve by testing them in pvp, (thinking you should start hs at 50% instead of 25% health). My normal backstabs with crit strikes is 5-6k sometimes that jumps up with fire sigil procs

why has this thread become about backstab vs maul?? Rangers have #2 on LB and can hit at a distance of 1900, which i can definitely not do on thief. I think sb needs a buff

Some do, yes. Cloak and dagger is one. A friend actually said the exact same thing you are about heartseeker to me the other day. I never knew about it being weaker in PvP, and the wiki didn’t say anything about it either, so I really don’t know. Back stab I believe has the same coefficient in PvP as it does in PvE and WvW.

The thread is not about back stab and maul. The discussion concerning maul should have ended before it began.

Zenith.7301:

Of course it can, except when it hits for 4.7k, and you need to use an elite, a 60 sec cd, a 30 sec one to hit that 6k mark. Clearly the average maul is hitting for 6k.

I grow tired of you. In one post you do a damage forumula for both maul and backstab, showing “similar” damage, and on the next you say you never meant to say maul could compete with backstab numbers.

You even gloated about screenshots trumping a wiki, and when provided screenshots that contradict your claim, you simply try to distract by saying they are with PvE stats, as if that changes anything.

Look again dude. I made no damage formula for backstab. Only for Maul because you kept banging on about it. Like I said, I never compared back stab to maul; that was you. I simply corrected you that maul can indeed crit for 5-6k. Also, the elite was never used – no idea where you got that from – and even if it was it has no affect on how hard maul hits… The signet was 48s CD, not 60s – back to repeating myself here. The 6k mark can be reached on a player that has less armour than the light golem (still repeating myself sigh), and of course in a PvP match there will be might stacks applied through team synergy (another repetition).

Zenith.7301:

Impact.2780:

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

The skills’ damage formula does not change based on whether it’s spvp or wvw/pve. A backstab will do that much more damage compared to a maul regardless, and that’s why the wiki tooltips are what people trust instead of your meaningless comparison that’s just plain wrong.

Do you want me to take the screenshots naked? Backstab will still outdamage maul by a fair margin. Sorry, you can’t wiggle your way out of base damage differences and a coefficient that’s almost twice that of maul.

Dear God man. I can own your whole little charade right now by saying DUH. Yes backstab hits higher. It always has. Now, kindly show me where anyone – specifically myself – said otherwise. Show me where the topic was “maul = backstab.” I think you’ll find it was you saying maul can’t hit 5-6k, and me saying yes it can. I’m starting to sound like a broken record. Now that I’ve proven it irrefutably to you, you’re just trying to save face by attempting to alter what this was about. As if I’d ever be so stupid as to say maul and backstab were equal. I’m insulted that you’d try to pull that. The only one wiggling here is you.

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

What is your point exactly? You said only thief can crit 5-6k. I’ve said any class can crit for 5-6k. You started saying no ranger can’t, and now you’re showing me screenshots of it happening in WvW. I’m starting to get the impression you changed the topic without my knowing. I have no interest in discussing WvW though.

Zenith.7301:

Ok on the ignore list you go. I can’t bother with people who go “lalalala can’t hear you the tooltips and coefficients confirmed for over a year on the wiki for these weapon skills are wrong and maul totally does similar damage to a backstab lalalalala”.

It’s like years of youtube videos of dungeon runs with thieves and rangers in them don’t even exist. I’m being told by this guy something along the lines of Mind Wrack being equivalent damage to 100b.

Ok I get it. You’re definitely a troll. Even when I use your constantly-harped-on-about wiki-listed coefficients, you say I’m ignoring them. You cry for maths then pretend I’m acting like a child and ignoring it after I give you your desired numbers since you’re too lazy to make the effort yourself. You twist what is said because you can’t deal with it as it is. You put words into my mouth because you need something to argue against. Finally, you make a completely distorted analogy.

I truly do hope I am on your ignore list.

You have to remember though that balance is aimed more toward higher levels of play than that where players ignore shadow refuge. By higher level, I mean potential-wise, not the devs saying "Hmm, Bob seems competent. Let’s balance around him."

I know this is a kind of troll thread. The same guy making multiple threads to encourage QQ about thieves. But there is one pretty big fail which I want to jump on anyway.

Invoker.5462:

the moment i felt threatened id just throw down a shadow refuge and it was amazing how many people would give up looking for me.

This is why “stealth OP!” “nerf stealth!” “stealth has no counter play!”

People don’t think. They are like babies who haven’t developed object permanence yet – the moment they see something vanish, they forget it exists! Then sometime later they reflect, “Oh, there was a thief that vanished. How over powered.”

Usually the team that controls mid on Legacy wins, for the exact reasons you’ve described.

A mesmer shouldn’t be the one designated to guarding points though. They can, as can thief, if they have to, and can win some matchups. Usually though, they can only go and hold it temporarily and only if they will receive help in the form of someone who can sit on the point to hold the cap, then they either leave or stay to finish the enemy off. Mesmer and thief actually rotate very similarly, it’s just that if there is a thief, the thief is usually the one to decap because they are faster at getting there and back. In the meantime, both thief and mesmer focus targets, moving between the team fights to +1 or +2 if there are both moving together.

In the event that mid is lost, you need to win a team fight to put some of them on respawn so you can rotate quickly to (if you didn’t win it on mid), and out number mid and get it decapped. The other option is to try and bait the other team into over reaching by holding far so they have to contest your close, and have a thief sneak away and decap mid. You might be pushing the furthest point away from your base, but so must they if you have the far point secured and protected.

Zenith.7301:

Are you, like blind?

It’s right there in the godkitten wiki links, the base damage and POWER SCALING COEFFICIENTS.

You posted only the screenshot of mauls, which hits for a pitiful 4.7k CRIT, and then wanted to beef it up with a 60 second cooldown signet of the wild.

Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge. And how convenient of you to compare maul with backstab without bringing up might on signet use backstabs with the 15% damage boost.

By this point I just can’t take you seriously. You show someone the damage numbers from the wiki, with the coefficients, and they just proceed to ignore it. Do you have a moral objection against math or something?

No, just lazy when it comes to maths. See, I know for a fact that maul can hit "5-6k," which is the figure you gave, and the figure I worked with since. If I can prove something without typing out an equation, I will.

Do I really have to point out yet again that:
1) Light target golem has 330 more armour than light berserkers, and 225 more armour than medium berserkers.
2) I was not flanking, so add 10% to each of those (yes 4.7k*1.1=5170; i.e. over 5k).
3) I wasn’t even paying attention to movement impairments. You can see from those screens cripple being applied as I took the shot, which is obviously after maul landed, so I don’t think the 10% from Predator’s Onslaught was applied. That’s possibly 21% extra damage.

So maths... Ugh. Well it’s a bit insulting to be called "alergic to maths," when you’re the one that came here with a claim and haven’t done any yourself. I suppose you’re lazy too.

Alright, the thing to note about the formula is that it’s player-discovered, so there’s no guarantee that it is equal to the one used in the game engine. This is another reason for favouring one’s eyes, and thus another reason why I took the time to take and provide screen shots. Although, I’m starting to think you’re just don’t want to admit you’re wrong, because there’s no logical reason whatsoever for you to refute what I’ve said now. Anyhow...

Base power: 2333
Max greatsword strength: 1100
Critical damage: 1.9913 (199.13%, I’m using ogre runes)
Damage modifier: 1.2584 (Predator’s Onslaught * Hunter’s Tactics * Ogre(6))

Formula as I remember it:
damage = power*weapon*coefficient*modifiers
And if crit:
damage = damage*critical_damage
And then the target’s armour reduces it:
damage = damage/armour

So...

damage = 2333*1100*1.5*1.2584 = 4844147.88
damage = 4844147.88*1.9913 = 9646151.673444

Hit on the light golem:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 2180 = 4425
See, this is interesting. The maximum hit according to this is 300 odd less than my screenshot, and yet this took into account the damage modifiers that as I’ve already pointed out, weren’t present in my screenshots.

Let’s see on a mesmer:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 1850 = 5214
Oh look. It’s over 5k.

How about on a thief:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 1955 = 4934
That’s practically 5k, and taking into account the actual damage is proven to be higher than the formula shows, it will most definitely be well over 5k.

Now with even just a couple of might stacks, and definitely with moment of clarity or signet of the wild - which by the way isn’t a 60sec cool down, it’s 48; if you’re running two signets as a power ranger you take signet mastery... - it will be well over 6k.

rainisword.7860:

Push backs and cc? Ye that works on shadow refuge lol. There isn’t enough counter play for when the thief is already stealth, thats the problem. D/P can permastealth as long as it wants, a good player will do that to bate out things like aegis or other abilities.

The reply to the shadowstep is not a good one either. Wasting a distortion or a focus 4 on earth to evade a quick steal with sigil procs isn’t a good trade off at all. Wasting big cooldowns in general to avoid an ability that thieves can do pretty frequently isn’t a good trade off either. Especially a low skill cap build like an S/D thief who can sneak in really quick and then shadowstep out. They shadowstep in, bait your cooldowns or your burst, then move back out, along with the fact that they have access to like 10 times the amount of evades as other players.

Disabling effects and immobilise always work when they land, and are not restricted to shadow refuge. They work on thieves just as much as any other class, and when they land on a thief who isn’t able to immediately cleanse or break, he’s dead. If he survives it’s not his fault, it’s his attacker’s coordination being off, but he still needs to bail and recover.

You can’t say “but they just sit in stealth,” like the counter play isn’t countering. The fact they are forced out of the fight to sit in stealth, contributing nothing, means the counter play is working.

Any mesmer cool down is worth making a thief’s steal miss. Missing steal is huge. Thief counters mesmer very hard though, yes. S/D has a lot of evades, yes, but it has less blinds than D/P, less passive heals than an ele or warrior, is almost always playing squishy, has no blocks like warrior, guardian or engineer, has little cc, and no invulnerability skills like ele, warrior, ranger and mesmer. The “but it has so many evades,” really isn’t an argument because every other class has a way to mitigate or avoid damage too. S/D’s method is simply to use its high endurance regeneration. The difference? You don’t equip a weapon or skill, and push a button to become invulnerable for a duration. You have to build entirely around evasion, and you have to time those evades for every single hit you want to avoid.

Zero Day.2594:

@Impact
I bet he’s going to say how it requires setup…

That’s why I provided one without any buffs. Actually, I should have done one with might stacks only, as well, since that’s the most likely to happen in a match. I hope he’s smart enough to work out that with the difference in armour between a squishy player and the light golem, and even just a couple of might stacks, that it’ll put it over 5k.

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, thanks for glossing over the skill tooltips that just contradicted your whole "ranger can get as high with maul".

All it tells me is you haven’t mained a ranger, like ever.

1) Those weren’t tool tips. They were the names of skills.
2) It in no way contradicted what I said about ranger or any other class.
3) Unbuffed maul.
4) Maul with moment of clarity. Edit: Bah I missed the screenshot of the hit. It’s in the combat log though.
5) Maul with signet of the wild.
6) Maul with signet of the wild and some might stacks.
7) Maul with moment of clarity and some might stacks (I was actually going for a grand finale with moment of clarity, some might, AND signet of the wild, but I was a bit too slow).

"Why light golem?" It puts it into perspective really, since the 5-6k backstabs are on squishies. In fact, a shatter mesmer has 1850 armour, a meta thief has 1955 armour, and a pewpew ranger has 2055-2105 armour. That light golem has 2180 armour, so imagine those hits being a bit higher.

Swagger.1459:

Impact.2780:

Thank you for helping me make my point.

I don’t think you are fully comprehending this debate. I would like to suggest that you reread what I wrote before you try to carry on this conversation.

Also in the previous post, I never said you “said” that, I gave you reasons why things were not “balanced”.

Edit- read this because it still very much applies to gw2 profession development and balance in 2015…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing/first#post3680985

You didn’t bluntly state it, no. You implied it by calling what I said a load of “carp,” and proceeding to tell me that balance updates are a low priority of ANet’s. As for this… “debate,” there really isn’t one. You’ve said absolutely nothing in response to what I actually said. You just quoted it, called it “carp,” and went on about something else. The only thing I can’t comprehend is how you can possibly think it’s me that isn’t comprehending the discussion. Perhaps you’re just retaliating to me saying “you appear to be confused?”

A thread requesting reveal on block was getting posted every couple of months last year, and then they just stopped. Each time they got mixed views, but I think the majority were in favour of it. At least if the hit originated within a certain range. As for the on "miss," that’s a new one I think. I’m not sure that’ll happen since by missing, you didn’t touch them, and thus couldn’t have revealed yourself.

My opinion: on block not really fussed in all honesty, but no to on miss.

Zenith.7301:

LOL. A Maul is one of the most obvious telegraphs ever, and opening strike on stealth is a GRANDMASTER trait which most people won’t even take because predator’s onslaught is significantly better.

I can tell by that list you just made you’re not the most unbiased source. Your types deserv e to be banned from playing thief for a while and be forced to play any other berk class against teams with berk thieves.

Clearly thieves are just fine, that’s why they’re easily replaced in any tournament and top teams by other berserker classes.

Now you’ve missed your own point. From stealth right? I don’t think maul can be seen when invisible on account of it being… you know. Invisible.

As for your direct attack; I’m not going to get into what I do and don’t play, because this thread isn’t about me. I’d appreciate if you didn’t try bait responses that are specific to an individual’s playing habits irrespective of the original topic.

Zero Day.2594:

Impact, why do you bother?

I don’t know! Maybe because I think it helps?

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth.

AoE, cleaves, push backs, knock downs, immobilise, stuns, counter stealth, mobility, invulnerability, block. Plenty of counter play. I suppose most people that have the mindset for playing such deceptive, tricky, out-witting games are people who enjoy playing thief more than the other classes. So many players, seeing the enemy player enter stealth, will just stand there and wait to be hit, then complain. I mean, at least bloody move. Movement in itself is a counter – the weakest, granted – but they have to follow you, and that takes the same time it took you to cover that distance! It buys time, maybe even the full duration of the stealth causing it to wear off before they hit you, and it may even force them to use a resource(s) to close the gap. Counting is another underrated counter… Count the seconds, then enter stealth yourself or use an invulnerability skill or a block. Aegis too at least let’s you know the stealthed player is nearby.

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth. Its also that there isn’t enough counterplay to certain abilities that shadowstep because they happen instantly wihtout any animation so you can’t dodge(besides the pistol shadow step). Like steal.

You mean like…
- Lightning strike (trait)
- Lightning strike (scepter)
- Blinding flash
- Hurl
- Arcane wave
- Arcane blast
- Lightning flash
- Spinal shivers
- Blink
- Phase retreat
- Smite condition
- Judge’s intervention
- Overcharged shot
- Numerous invulnerability skills like endure pain, defy pain, signet of stone (not counting mist form or elixir s because they have a tradeoff), and blocks, which can come out instantly to counter burst.
- And yes shadow step, and infiltrator’s signet. Leave steal alone, it’s a profession skill. Virtues, enter death shroud, attunement swap and alright not exactly the profession skill but practically: equip/unqeuip kit, have no cast time.

Thief has them… So does every other class. Ele and guard have the most.

Zenith.7301:

Thief is the only class who gets the ability to crit for 5-6k+ from stealth.

1) No. Rangers have a trait that enables them to regain opening strike when entering stealth, which in such a build is a guaranteed crit. Combined or not, with moment of clarity, greatsword can hit that high.
2) No. Anyone can crit 5-6k if built right, and any class can enter stealth. 4/8 can enter it themselves, and the other 4 can be given it from 3 of the other 4. What you mean is, thief is the only class that has a skill that hits that high that can only be used from/is restricted to stealth.
3) Anyone can play the X is the only class who can Y game. I’ll show you: Mesmer is the only class who gets the ability to (reliably) deal 5-6k+ damage from stealth, without getting revealed.

Edit: For clarification on point 3, even though it was an example - by reliably I don’t mean "they always will." I mean as opposed to rangers who theoretically can following the same concept - the AI deals the damage while you’re in stealth - but it is less reliable because it’s easier to avoid a pet than a phantasmal berserker. E.g. if you’re out of dodges, the berserker will hit, while the pet can be kited just by moving away.

The differences are size, appearance, and animations. Asuras, being smaller, have smaller animations for your opponent to spot, and you can more easily see your target over your head. Standard models in ranked arenas addressed the former, but it’s still the case in WvW, hot join and unranked PvP. As for the latter, the recent camera changes allow you to position your camera higher, so you can better see over your head on any race. Another point about the size is obstructions. For example, the mine cart on the mine point on Legacy of the Foefire can be stood behind to obstruct other players’ attacks. On an asura, a ranger’s longbow skills won’t hit you because you’re the same height as the cart. On a human, you would get hit unless you make yourself lower by, for example, using the /sleep command.

So it comes down to:
- How the enemy sees you in PvE, WvW, hot join, and unranked PvP.
- Sleight advantage regarding low height obstructions with asuras.
- The difference of animations between the two races.
- The appearance options they have, and how you want to look.

Thank you for helping me make my point.

Swagger.1459:

Impact.2780:

Cries for nerfs, cries for buffs, cries of imbalance. Zzz. The devs do aim to make all classes balanced in PvP, while maintaining the distinct differences thereof so that not only is there variety, but a) the various roles and play styles exist and are viable, and b) variety is necessary against a team of equal skill and knowledge.

People like to complain. No matter the state of the game, there will be people saying X is too strong, others saying X is too weak; some saying X should always beat Y, and others insisting Y is a counter to X. It’s very easy to be influenced by these claims; eventually you’ll encounter one that relates to your experience. That’s when you discover the type of player you are: does it encourage you to become better so that is no longer true for you, or does it inspire you to complain alongside those people, and make no progress unless the devs sympathize with your crowd.

TLDR? - PvP is balanced. "Moaners gonna moan".

That’s such a load of carp. Meaningful professions development, meaningful combat mechanic improvements, meaningful balance updates, ... have been the lowest priority to the development team since the beginning. Much of their resources have been put toward living story and china development, not to make the core of this game (professions and combat) better.

Edit- the only things carrying profession and combat in this game are the mechanics behind them (movement while casting, good camera, good targeting and overall gameplay "smoothness"), not on their own merits.

You appear to be confused. I did not say that the devs are constantly or even frequently investing significant time into updating combat, mechanics, and progression (although if they are to be believed, they have been since I think they said they’d been quietly working on HoT for a long time, we just haven’t seen it yet). I merely said that it was balanced. I even gave a 6 word summary; I’m really not sure where you got lost.

Sadly that’s the state of the leaderboard atm. Being top isn’t an achievement, it doesn’t reflect player skill because the devs want to give an equal chance to players less skilled (because logic, right?) and consequentially the system gets moaned about.

Scenario #1:
Unfortunately, the top-ranked players on that board make easier targets to vent on than the developers, despite the fact that it’s not their fault. People are stupid.

Scenario #2:
Those players actually think the board is a reflection of skill, and think you must be good. Unfortunately a lot of people enjoy seeing someone who is highly rated fail, more than they enjoy seeing someone succeed. So when you lose to them or get caught in a 1vX and don’t appear to be "godmode," you get trolled.

Cries for nerfs, cries for buffs, cries of imbalance. Zzz. The devs do aim to make all classes balanced in PvP, while maintaining the distinct differences thereof so that not only is there variety, but a) the various roles and play styles exist and are viable, and b) variety is necessary against a team of equal skill and knowledge.

People like to complain. No matter the state of the game, there will be people saying X is too strong, others saying X is too weak; some saying X should always beat Y, and others insisting Y is a counter to X. It’s very easy to be influenced by these claims; eventually you’ll encounter one that relates to your experience. That’s when you discover the type of player you are: does it encourage you to become better so that is no longer true for you, or does it inspire you to complain alongside those people, and make no progress unless the devs sympathize with your crowd.

TLDR? - PvP is balanced. "Moaners gonna moan".

Actually the AoE that is used is used because it is superior to the other options for that class at the moment. Ele is always AoE with the exception of scepter which isn’t used because thief, mesmer and even ranger can offer more in the same role. Warrior is always AoE because longbow burst is the most reliable way to use cleansing ire, and secondly the burning damage just happens to be most effective in a meta where they have both condition damage and direct damage oriented stats. Necros run staff for the marks and life force generation, not because those marks are AoE; scepter, axe and dagger are not AoE, and yet necros are more in the meta than they have been in a while. Mesmers have never had much AoE, and have been very popular until recently, despite still being effective as consistently shown by some of the top competitive teams. Rangers have always had AoE, but only started to be used in the competitive scene after their last rebalance. If an engineer isn’t running grenades or bomb kit, they aren’t offering as much as they could; both sets happen to have AoE; toolkit and pistol are mostly single target. Thieves themselves run shortbow for no single reason; it’s as much for the mobility as it is the blast finisher, evade, AoE poison, and AoE damage. In fact, S/D can evade around AoE, while D/P is more vulnerable to it; in some cases we see them sitting in stealth for quite a while looking for an opening. Yet, D/P is more popular in the competitive scene than S/D at the moment. Nice try though.

Thought serious until.

Invoker.5462:

the only meta build which fears you most is a shoutbow warrior

LOL.

No, but seriously. LOL.

I’ve seen it happen twice. Once to some thief I don’t know; a team mate said they were being attacked by a thief they couldn’t see. Obviously I thought that can’t be right, he must be LoSing or something. Sure enough though, standing on the clock tower, I could see him clearly taking damage on the windmill, but couldn’t see his attacker, who also, while invisible, had managed to decap the point! Then I see black powder go down from no source, and a few seconds later a thief appears. Leaving stealth removes the invisibility, which indicates it is a problem with stealth (if that was in question).

The second time it happened to a friend on the opposing team; again, a thief. Right after dying, he respawned and wrecked me while I was trying to finish off an ele before bailing from the decapped far point. I never saw him. He told me afterward that he had no idea how he became invisible, and was attacking me in melee range the whole time - no tricks!

Edit: Oh and both times it happened to a thief, one was using D/P and the other S/D, so it’s not weapon related.

Don’t stand in wells. Save stun breakers and blinding powder if traited for Shadow’s Embrace until you’re feared and break or cleanse it instantly. Try to use steal defensively to prevent their burst. Don’t fall below half health; if you do, you’re as good as dead because their next hit could carry 3 procs, one of which (their traited one) can crit for over 4k. At 50% health, a single hit from them can hit you for 66% of your total health: 4k traited Chill of Death, 4k Life Blast, 1.5k Lightning Strike and 1k Fire blast. If you’re approaching that 50% mark, stealth and recover.

Edit: Oh and it does go without saying but, engage on your terms, not on their’s. If they jump you, get out and return to jump them if you need to. Get your burst off first.

A fire sigil proc works nicely too.

So it’s not fair that what you want to play isn’t optimal. Yet, if it was changed so that it was optimal, would it not simply be reversing the situation so that it is instead not fair to those who enjoy the current optimal builds? Basically you just need to find your play style, and a proven build out of all those viable out of all the classes. Calling it unfair because you want to play like an engineer on a mesmer or like a warrior on a thief isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself. Furthermore, in a team game, it is definitely unfair to your allies to not be using something that works well, and some would go a step further to say it’s unfair to your allies to not use what is absolutely optimal for your play style and or a given situation. If you want to troll around, there’s always hot join, but if your builds can’t even make it there, then yes, PvP is definitely not for you.

Getting trained on by a ranger at max range you can do nothing about because the range hard counters your lack of mobility, and the ranger has 0 pressure on him? Thoughts? Tell the berserker players on your team to do their job.

Nerf indeed. Pfft.

Who cares if it’s not ready.

Take it anyway.

Steal it.

Perhaps the addition of a second choice option. Only one map can be voted on, per player, and additionally each player can opt to vote for a second choice. If one map receives less than 5 or 4 votes in total for first and second choice combined, it gets removed and the virtual dice rolls for the other two. That way, you -can- always have a map you voted on in the selection, there will still be fair probability value for each map because "first choice" will bear more weight than "second choice," and players have a way to indirectly vote for the exclusion of one map.

Here’s an old D/D stealth-based build in terms of weapons, skills and traits. As for gear in WvW I don’t know, but I’d imagine a mix of cavalier and valkyrie for the crit damage to work with hidden killer, and maybe a few knights or berserker pieces to up your crit chance a bit when not attacking from stealth.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV;1Rw-_06-BOkd0;9;49TT;02;005B53A;4INl6L;1F-03F-03l

Again those utilities can be swapped a bit. Signet of Shadows, Signet of Agility, Shadow Trap, Roll for Initiative are all possibilities.

For what setting? PvP or WvW?

This is good for PvP, and can also work in WvW:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3V;1Vw-_07-JOFd0;9;49;0TT2;612746BINl6L;1F-03F-035f

However, WvW thief builds tend to go into shadow arts for heal while in stealth, which is better suited to D/P and D/D. I rarely WvW so I can’t offer a proven build without searching for one.

Edit: You can also swap Infiltrator’s Signet or Signet of Agility for Shadowstep in that build.

I’ve not really been following outside of what new weapon each class will get, and muttering "bloody typical," every time a leak is for a class that isn’t the one I play! So when you say "one new weapon," is that, "only one new weapon," or "one new weapon, only?"

Like, would off-hand sword count as a new weapon. If not, has anything been said that would rule out the possibility of getting a "new" weapon, and the ability to equip a weapon we currently have in the opposite hand?