Guild Wars 2

If this is intended or to be intended with the release of HoT:
- Shadow Refuge should be altered to work as it did previously, so the full duration of stealth can be used.
- Cloak and dagger should be restored to it’s full damage in PvP; currently in PvP it uses a lower damage coefficient.

+1. I did use it on my mesmer, but it was clearly broken - especially on necro. Thanks for the quick fix.

Poor ANet. They just can’t win. Complaints over no new game modes, and when they finally make one, making one is a "dealbreaker!"

On a more serious note, more frequent balance patches for a faster-evolving meta have been asked for for a long time. It’s probably never going to happen though. You can’t take anything they say seriously unless it’s shown on a stream either. Some things they claimed they were working on were mentioned ages ago - before ascended armour was even hinted at - and still haven’t been released. In fact it’s been so long I’ve forgotten what those were, and I was looking forward to couple of them.

I should probably actually contribute something to this thread now lol.

In the HoT specialization stream where the working changes to existing trait lines were previewed, the possibility of an increase to the base initiative regeneration rate was mentioned. It was not confirmed as definitely happening or not happening - they keep specifying that all numbers are in the process of being re-balanced. I don’t believe there was any mention of chill with this, showing that the devs appear to currently appreciate the problems that come with the initiative mechanic and the high costing skills and combos, and having low initiative following a weapon weapon swap. The "energy" recharge rate we saw for the revenant’s skills was really high - although they said numbers aren’t final on that stream too. That doesn’t mean no one can argue they are wrong to think this, of course. However, even if it were or is fine as it is, the potential for -66% recharge rate on a single resource that is required by all skills and is not refreshed on a weapon swap or unique to each weapon set is very strong, and balance changes would need to be made to the mechanic.

The aim would be to balance initiative regeneration and or chill so that the former can be affected by the latter a reasonable amount without putting the class at a disadvantage relatively greater than that which is experienced by other classes when affected by the condition. Ultimately, the initiative regeneration rate will be effectively increased, whether directly or indirectly, such that on average, factoring in chill effects, initiative regeneration will be the same as it is now. Consequentially, the initiative regeneration rate will be buffed, and that buff will be apparent as a buff when under the effects of chill for less than what was considered average during the re-balancing, and similarly a nerf when under the effects of chill for longer than what was considered average during the re-balancing.

So the devs could leave it alone (not including the potential increase the initiative regeneration rate slightly as they indicated they were considering), or buff it so that chill can affect it equally. Ultimately the mechanic will be the same as, or very close to it is currently, give or take a percentage. So you see, they would have to discuss and agree on the changes, numbers, balance, calculate a balanced value from a huge number of variables, review, implement, test, correct, repeat development steps until satisfactory, and deliver, just to have it work, on average, the same as it does now. This marks such a change as an act of "perfectionism," that would only remove some ill- perceived unfairness to stop complaints. Alas, people will always find something to complain about, so changes for such purposes are very low priority. If I was a dev faced with the option to do this, I would choose to spend my time on something more urgent or that would be more meaningful in the game’s development.

Furthermore, the fact that initiative would have to be re-balanced if chill were to affect it means that it is plausible that it has already been balanced with consideration to the fact that chill doesn’t effect it. If this is true, then it is not broken and what you want already exists - the fact it was balanced in consideration of chill means the existence of chill is affecting the mechanic’s values.

Scrolling onward...

StickerHappy.8052:

Turk.5460:

StickerHappy.8052:

Let me guess you’re another thief. LOL.

I Did say we can make a compromise to just make -10% ini/sec, sooooo...

Yeah...30 posts into the topic, only after you gained a little humility and realized your original _and very adamant_ demand was ridiculous.

My original demand was the affect thieves via ini regen, the topic got so derailed because of you thieves acting defensively, Read my post to Cynz that I even told him I have even 10% is pushing too much?

Actually, you didn’t.

StickerHappy.8052:

Are thieves not strong? You have always been part of the meta? Cmon, stop acting thieves have it worse than other classes, (Rangers, necros)

Just even -10% ini regen is pushing too much? lol.

Again I do get your point about utilities, no one is disputing that!

But lets compare it:

*Chill affects other classes utilities? Yes! Chill affects other classes weapon skills? Yes!*

*Does chill affect thieves utilities? Yes! Does chill affect other classes weapon skills? No?*

Yes you do have a different mechanic, Thats why I am suggesting for it to affect initiative regeneration rate!

You can’t even give a number for a compromise?

There is a difference when someone wants creative discussion and someone who just blatantly refuses to engage in one.

See that difference.

Why do you always make it look like I am whining? I am not, I never said I was having a hard time with thieves. I am suggesting a fair working condition for everyone else

"Just even -10% ini regen is pushing too much?" This context is more of a belittlement than a compromise attempt. Besides, the devs don’t "compromise," they "balance." Ideally, they want the same mechanic to work the same on everything it is applied to so they don’t have to create special conditions, because that creates more work with the implementation and maintenance, and can start to make the code less elegant. It would be more ideal from a programming perspective, to have chill affect initiative regeneration by -66% and add a separate initiative pool for each weapon swap.

"You can’t even give a number for a compromise?"

You see? This again. Balance proposals offered, reasoning repetitively given as to why the refuted balance proposal is fair, and why balancing would be necessary, yet still you say no one is offering "numbers" for "compromise," i.e. in realistic terms: modifications for balance maintenance.

A separate initiative bar for each weapon set is exactly this. Now instead, you could be constructive here, and say something like:
"Yes that’s a step toward being fair and maintaining balance, but it would be a huge buff to thieves while chill doesn’t come in to play."
Then offer a counter-counter. I’ll give you an example of one of these too:
"How about keeping one initiative pool for both weapon sets, but increasing the pool and the base initiative regeneration rate a bit instead, so that while under the effects of chill, thieves can still use their skills and combos and not necessarily be completely out of initiative when they swap weapons, without having essentially double their current initiative regeneration rate over two weapon sets while not under the effects of chill?"
Which could be accepted, or argued with yet another counter suggestion made, until a good number of potential solutions are listed, from which the best or yet more ideas can be drawn by combining aspects of each.

This is how constructive balance discussions are had; how ideas are had, discussed and listed before considered more seriously for implementation. Devs could read this and think it raises some valid points, and take them into consideration. Instead though, they are more likely to see this thread, see a one-sided discussion going no where, and dismiss it entirely.

Another classic case of someone calling everyone else out for being unable to talk constructively, while the real culprit is themself. I’m not going to actually address the (very few) points that warrant response, since others have done that well enough. Instead, I’ll attempt to show you how you’re the one being "childish," as you like to keep putting it.

Anyone can easily argue the way you are right now, and create a one-sided discussion that goes no where. For example, I could easily say mesmers will be getting alacrity for shattering, and their phantasms will respawn after the first time they are shattered allowing for easier for consistent shatters and thus more consistent alacrity, which increases skill recharge by 66% thus making mesmers essentially immune to chill for the up-time of alacrity. Then, I could pretend it isn’t balanced by skills having longer cool downs - just like thieves have, essentially, by having only one initiative pool for both weapon sets - in order to keep repeating "mesmers are going to be immune to chill!"

So, being constructive...

Proposal: Chill affects thief weapon skills via initiative regeneration rate. Reasons given.
As with any changes to any class in such a game, this calls for a balance review.
Balance proposal: A separate initiative bar for each weapon set. Reasons given.
Response...

StickerHappy.8052:

You thieves always ask for compensation, even if its blatantly unfair.

You always defend your class with "Working as Intended"

I mean cmon, can’t you thieves engage in a more constructive rebuttals?

The proposal was met with an "if this, then this," which would be the case for any class that was about to receive a significant change to its class mechanic. Case and point: the devs are reviewing the cool downs of the mesmer shatter skills in light of the new alacrity status effect which will increase skill recharge rate by 66% while active.

The claim that having separate initiative pools for each weapon set is unfair is not justified. You make reference to the claim "working as intended," when it was not used. You give no reasoning, yet shoot those who did give reasoning down, telling them they are not being constructive. The ones who reason are the ones who are constructive, i.e. the opposite of what you are doing.

You refuse to be constructive, to a constructive response, yet demand others be constructive when not only were they being so, but you yourself are not. Now how can they, when each time they are, you respond with: unfair, not constructive. This is the real childish behaviour. This is what you’re saying:
"I want this. I want nothing else changed as per common practice to ensure balance, I just want this. I won’t accept a discussion over it unless it is to agree with me. I won’t listen to reason as to why it is unfair to do so without balancing, I just want it done. What was considered non-constructive is now constructive, so that I can wield the term to bat away reasoning, because I just want my way."

Or to use your own words, this is what you are doing:

StickerHappy.8052:

So why not make a constructive rebuttal? Like a different idea, instead of just "Nope Nope Nope, You can’t" mentality

Old meta builds for thief:
2/6/0/0/6 Executioner & Trickery. D/P + SB.
5/6/0/0/3 Dagger Training, Executioner and +3 initiative pool minor. D/P + SB.

Then there’s the all-or-nothing signet burst 6/6/0/0/6 D/P or D/D.

They are used, and are quite popular atm. They saves mesmers and thieves from being 1 shot. Mesmers can use shatters while in mist, before they die. Necros can use all 5 DS skills while in mist. Engis can use their toolbelt skills while in mist. If warriors didn’t need their soldier runes, they’d be using them too.

You’re both reasonably unreasonable. There.

Back to the topic which could actually go somewhere and might - dare I say it - get heard by the devs. There’s still time to hope.

I could easily agree to the idea of making sleight of hand baseline. There are two parts to this skill:
- Reduced cool down on steal
- Daze for 1s.

The idea of reducing the base cool down of steal - our only profession skill and the longest cool down profession skill both alone (if you exclude tool belt skills as they are more "utilities accessible via profession mechanic") and collectively, in the game - is not unreasonable at all. In fact that reduced cool down is extremely important when traiting for effects on steal, most of which are essential to be viable. Thrill of the crime: need our fury and swiftness; bountiful theft: need our vigor and boon ripping allows us to deal with lich form, interrupt safe stomps and safe resses, and utilize the interrupt of steal vs targets with stability. A longer cool down means survival is cut: less vigor up-time, less fury and swiftness, longer cool down on a shadow step for pursuit or escape.
And yes, the "case-and-point" at mesmers getting illusionary persona as a baseline is a valid thing to raise. It’s precedent.

The daze, while often invaluable, is not absolutely necessary for thief to be viable. Steal as a shadow step already is quite strong, adding the reduced cool down and daze as baseline when you can also add a lot more to it might be overpowering it. It needs to be balanced with the fact that it can be buffed up a lot from traits. However, thieves would still have to go into trickery for thrill of the crime and bountiful theft anyway, both of which absolutely should not be made baseline, because then you’re essentially giving thieves a whole trait line as baseline. So when you think of it this way - that thieves will still go into trickery - it is arguable not overpowered to make sleight of hand - both the reduced cool down and the daze - baseline.

Still, if it were up to me, I would see the reduced cool down made baseline and an idea off the top of my head, merge improvisation with sleight of hand (keeping it "Sleight of Hand" and in the trickery line) creating a trait like:
- Daze your target for 1s when you steal (as sleight of hand is)
- You can use stolen items twice (as improvisation is)
- One random skill category is recharged when you steal (as improvisation is)
- No damage buff (remove the 10% modifier from improvisation to balance with the fact that it would become possible to take executioner as well as this trait)

Mrbig.8019:

Blackjack.5621:

I already explained why sigils should be weaker (not defining builds). Doesnt matter if you tweak the damage or the internal cooldown.

The issue doesnt exsist all of a sudden, it has been there for 1 year. And you are incorrect, sigils and runes do carry builds.

Just quit like everybody else lol.

They don’t really care, balance has gone towards more and more power creep than ever, it ain’t gonna change.

Complaints about turret engi went ignored for months and months and months, until there was a burst of complaint threads here. Perhaps with enough complaints about passives they’ll start to address the undodgeable, uncounterable on-hit passive traits and sigils. Change is possible! We just have to keep nagging.

Oh and on removing skillful play aspect: the changes will also force all thieves into deadly arts, removing the currently existing choice between deadly arts and critical strikes. So those of us that enjoyed going for the higher damage option and hating on the passive cheese that is panic strike will no longer be able to do this, for we will be forced to take that trait to be of equal or greater use to our team, and so as not to be at a significant disadvantage vs. other thieves since every thief will now be picking it up when they inevitably specialize in that line, in addition to now having the same damage potential.

Splendid job, ANet.

All the endurance feline grace currently offers isn’t even needed. It’d be nice to have a bit more endurance (more than the rework gives) because it does complement the play style and gives some more active survivability as opposed to the likes of what most other classes have - blinds, blocks, immunity to direct damage, and invulnerability. However, with additional damage and an evade built into flanking strike, the extra endurance isn’t needed for the set to be viable, provided you still take agility signet and trade acrobatics for a significant damage boost. Post-update, all offensive builds get a damage boost anyway due to the removal of stats on trait lines and stat increases on amulets and base stats.

What does annoy me is ANet seems to not know what passives are and needs reminders from the community. The community complains about the lack of skillful play in certain traits and wants them reworked, so eventually - when they finally get around to a balance patch (actually maybe the 2nd or 3rd balance patch since the first complaint) - they do this, but in the same update introduces a bunch of new ones equally or more flawed. The latest example is adding skillful play to feline grace by requiring an actual evade and not a random ineffective-use-of-endurance dodge to get the benefits, but adding a passive random projectile dodge with don’t stop.

T raw.4658:

Thaddeus.4891:

T raw.4658:

S/D vs D/P 1v1 advantage goes to S/D.

Group play where all you are doing is spiking targets <50% health D/P is better.

The reason you are seeing more D/P in the meta is honestly IMHO the condi clear.

I think the reason is more about the Blind. Stomping is one of the most important thing in group fight in PvP and the Skill 5 is really good for that. The capability of D/P to finish off low health foe is also a big plus. It just work best in the current meta.

The only time a thief is stomping is 1v1.

In that case it doesn’t matter.

If you think laying a Blind Powder for a teammate is the reason then you need to realize 1 pulse every 2 seconds doesn’t ensure a stomp anymore.

When a target drops, the attackers rush to cleave, and the allies of that downed rush to either res or use them as bait to cleave as well (trade-blows if they think they will come out on-top).

In either event, whichever side you’re on, a blinding field can help reduce the incoming damage quite a bit.

I’ve been using pack since back when everyone was using Lyssa. I’ve always liked being able to give those offensive buffs to a roaming partner or allies whenever I jump onto a point.

Damage-wise, Pack is quite a bit stronger than strength with a berserker amulet, and that’s not counting the bonuses to allies. Of course it’s stronger over-time by giving you more critical hits and more reliable sigil procs. Strength, if your hit crits, will give you higher spike due to the damage modifier, but less damage over time due to less critical hits and fewer sigil procs.

I love rock dog on D/P thieves. It let’s me kill them with dancing dagger while the thief is in stealth.

Don’t use ogre.

I said this somewhere in another thread:
While I dislike high damage instant-cast abilities, on-hit effects that don’t have a charge, and instant damage on weapon swap, preventing sigil procs for auto attacks will just make things more unbalanced. It will favour classes that don’t use their auto attacks much. Classes like thief are designed to use their auto attacks as their main source of damage, and the other skills in reaction to a situation. Not every class can swap kits with no cool down, or has 4 sets of skills to cycle through for a greater chance to land those sigil effects. Better to just remove them altogether, and un-nerf some skills that have been nerfed or are nerfed just in PvP, or increase the damage coefficients slightly of select skills for each class.

No valid path
Obstructed/Out of range because of anything ranging between a pebble to a bump in the terrain.
Chill of Death
Panic Strike
On-hit effects in general (on <condition> or <specific skill> is fine because they can be counter played)
High damage instant cast skills (Smite Condition, Arcane Wave/Blast, Lightning Strike etc.)
Strong high up-time passives
Builds that can faceroll and tank everything and still be effective
Slick shoes knocking down even if you stand still on activation
Warrior being better at support than guardian

JUST LET US PORT THERE.

I’m tired of looking like an idiot before I die; running into a wall having been trying to port up but getting no valid path.
I’m tired of dying with all my utilities ready, steal ready, and full initiative, just because I get no valid path.
I can’t reliably forward-think. You know, anticipate a bad position, leave a return port or even my stun-break shadow return as an escape route, only to have it consumed WITHOUT porting me, because of no valid path. I don’t want to have to rely on passives and on-hit traits, but it’s like choosing to play actively instead gets punished!

Why do my ports say no valid path, and projectiles say out of range or obstructed because of a PEBBLE on the terrain? Why can’t I fight someone who is 0.5 MILIMETRES TALLER THAN ME?

</rage>

Please fix ports.

Shockwave.1230:

Given available themes for a rogue profession I’d lean towards one of the following types:

• Stance
• Survival
• Symbol
• Physical
• Marks

Less likely but still potential candidates if they go a bit out of character like with the Dragon Hunter:

• Meditation
• Mantra
• Manipulation
• Glyph

Survival and manipulation unlikely because they’d likely function too similar to deception. The same could be said of gadget. Cantrips are also survival-like but not through mobility or manipulating the environment, so they could be possible with an assassin-like specialization, but only if cantrips are intended as survival skills rather than spells; if they are specifically intended as spells, thief won’t get them.

Meditation will go to ele or ranger (druid).
Mantra I don’t think will go to any class.
Glyph will go to necro if anything.
Marks and symbols aren’t utility skill types, and judging from mesmer having wells and guardian having traps, they may only be using current utility types.
Physical maybe, but tricks are kind of our version of that.
Nothing else really fits except stance and shout.

Stance and cantrip could fit for a more offensive specialization like assassin.
Shouts could fit as a support option for thieves, with the specialization being scout-like.

Cynz.9437:

probably some AI crap because we don’t really have it yet… turrets inc

Plot twist, the medium armour class we saw previewed with a hammer is actually a thief, and we’re getting mini mobility turrets. It would also fit us, because they’ll be arriving pre-launch nerfed!

Some traits being awkwardly placed and therefore difficult to utilize in a build where they might be useful doesn’t make the traits themselves bad. Why is most people’s immediate reaction when there is an opposing view about a class "this guy obviously hasn’t played it!" I’ve played every class (and mained three); I would not comment on my experience on aspects of a class had I not played it first.

Best to worst:
1. Mesmer (Skills unique and well implemented, Utilities good and portal amazing, Traits great, Profession skills great)
2. Elementalist (Skills great synergy, Utilities nice, Some traits are too essential forcing pretty much the same trait setup for each build, Profession skills great)
3. Thief (Skills great, Utilities great, Traits ok some great some bad some just plain cheesey, Profession skills lacking)
4. Engineer (Skills ok, Utilities good and creative, Traits good, Profession mechanic suitable basically just extra utilities)
5. Necromancer (Skills lacking synergy, Utilities good, Traits good, Profession mechanic great but skills thereof not well designed)
6. Guardian (Skills define the roles too much instead of the traits, Utilities ok, Traits for offense are dreadful, Profession skills good)
7. Ranger (Skills lack skill and just get facerolled, Utilities ok, Traits seem poorly placed given the stats in each line, Profession mechanic allows for some abilities to be used randomly instead of at the player’s direction which is bad)
8. Warrior (Skills lack skill and just get facerolled, Utilities need work some overpowered some underpowered, Traits are really strong in every tier which is good or bad depending on your perspective since not all classes have this, Profession skill is lame)

It could be called wraith instead of banshee. They make loud noises. They made a non-reference to Captain America for the Mesmer’s shield. Necro is getting greatsword, and if they got shouts and were wraiths... LotR dark-rider/ringwraith non-reference?

Weapon: Rifle
Skill type: Shout, AoE reveal, offensive group buffs
Elite specialization: Scout, or something along those lines

Still hoping for off-hand sword though. They want to build on the existing features, and there is only going to be 1 sword trait in the normal specializations.

Weapon: Off-hand Sword
Skill type: Stance or Gadget
Elite specialization: Assassin (well why not?)

Have faith in our specialization to save S/D! I’ll probably still run S/D after tbh. I’ll just go 6/0/6/0/6 with venom share for my basi, stealth on steal for on-demand stealth (I don’t think any of the other master traits in that line are worth taking?), and stealth on res so I don’t need to try and save refuge for downed allies as much.

I’m pretty sure we’re getting shouts.

Necro’s spectral skills are like its version of cantrips already.
Necro will get either (in order of most likely): glyph, spirit, manipulation, with survival and elixir being highly unlikely but workable.

You don’t need "free camera," to do this, although I recommend having it checked so you can change it too throw things behind you as you run without it resetting.

You don’t need to left click the screen; you CAN enable free camera, right click once, "about face", press the skill, then "about face" or left click at the end of the skill and continue in your original direction, but this isn’t very versatile, adds execution time, and relying on a second "about face" usually costs you a step or two in the wrong direction.

This is how I do it:
You don’t need to complicate matters by releasing the right mouse button and left clicking once. This adds time to the execution and getting your heal/evade might be important to get ASAP. You simply release the right button, press your key bound to "about face" which changes your direction (and about-faces the camera with you), then press your key bound to withdraw, phase retreat, roll of initiative, acid bomb, etc. While you are executing the skill, you now have time to hold your right click again, and make your camera face the direction of your choice ready for the end of the animation. This enables you to see what is behind you as you withdraw, and at the end of the skill immediately head in a direction other than the one you started in if you wish, including back from where you came. For example, you might withdraw toward a corner and prepare your camera to steer yourself around the corner as soon as the animation ends, instead of taking 1-2 steps into a wall before steering. This way is faster and you have much more control. You also don’t need "free camera" for this method, but again, I recommend having it checked.

Idea Of Evil.1845:

Hello guys i play gw2 for like 5 months and i only play pvp as thief and mesmer

Learn the skills of other classes – including the guardian – so that you know what to watch for and what to avoid, and when it’s safer to land steal.

Idea Of Evil.1845:

and i can say 1 thing the Medi dps guards are cancer if the guardian knows what to do vs a class they can easily kill everything and i mean everything from condition builds to zerker

This is true of any class/build if the opponent is inexperienced or less skilled. It does not have a 100% win rate against thieves. Celestial ele is a strong counter to medi guard.

Idea Of Evil.1845:

i know that they may get countered from like 2-3 builds like wp condi engi but really u hardly find that build at tpvp and it’s like unfair that they can own most of power builds and can stand very well versus the most others ,they have a tone of blocks a freakin op burst and they also have a tone of healing

They can be worn down; their healing abilities have long cool downs. Just beware the blocks and blinds. Their burst is telegraphed. Move out of range with your mobility or evade, and be sure to look at their class so you know what skills do what and how hard they hit.

Idea Of Evil.1845:

and if i try to play them from afar they rekt me with just auto attack

As you range or approach, if you strafe side-to-side slightly, all the projectiles will aim for you to those sides leaving you mostly untouched.

I use 2/6/0/0/6 S/D and the damage is fine. I do agree though that there is not enough reward in completing a full auto attack chain given that it is very easy to dodge the last one, and it forces you to blow dodges or trade blows to complete it since evading with flanking strike or escaping something nasty momentarily with infiltrator’s return resets the chain.

Traps are the same mechanic as marks. I bet you wouldn’t mind if it were placing "light marks" which triggered an effect when an enemy or ally entered the area (offensive or supportive effect depending).

They will just be like symbols, only they don’t activate unless triggered by someone entering the area. Isn’t that better?

I agree the name is lame. Both DragonHunter and "Traps." It should be something relating to light-wielding, and "Marks."

jcbroe.4329:

make it so critical procs cannot occur on autoattacks, or skills without cooldowns/initiative use.

This would just make things like warrior and engineer overpowered because they rarely use their auto attacks. Ele too, because although they use auto attack, they have so many skills available to use, thus meaning effectively more critical hit chance.

It would destroy power necros, and break thieves since they are designed to use their auto attack as their primary source of damage, and their initiative-costing abilities in reaction; in fact, thief weapon skills are balanced around the fact that they are spammable, so that spamming them is not ideal, promoting the use of auto attack and initiative management.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Sube Dai.8496:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Sube Dai.8496:

Whilst I agree that fire/air procs are lame because of their random nature, they are not the massive problem op makes them out to be.

I also wouldn’t call them meta. This 5 thief, stealth burst, zerker meta team combo does not exist...

Your definition of meta doesn’t make sense. You don’t generally see 5 celestial teams either, does that mean celestial isn’t meta?

Fire/Air sigils do not define the meta right now. They might be meta on zerk classes, but they do not define the meta.

Support, sustain, and mobility define the current meta.

You are just wrong. I would say the reason to run shoutbow is basically banner. Which you run to res someone after they have stealth spiked your player.

People have been running stealth openers (with mesmer thief originally and now with 3 classes usually) for the whole time of the game and it has been a defining feature.

The more they have buffed d/p thief and nerfed s/d thief = more stealth = more burst = more stealth openers. D/p is the best spec in game, its so OP. what it offers is so irreplaceable with massive spike and perma stealth for all allies.

Stealth spikes are terrible for the game. You will literally be running from A to B and then just get insta-gibbed out of stealth. No counter play. Nothing. And the opponent? He didnt have to wait out dodges, he just pressed 3 buttons.

Damage in the game in general is too high. You cant even run a bunker guardian anymore. Everything has been power creeped over and over but the main power creep and damage comes from sigil procs which should be nerfed as a result. And not 8% nerfs. It needs 100% nerfs tbh.

Banner is not exclusively for stealth-spike-downed allies. It’s for downed allies regardless of the reason they got downed. It is not the sole reason for running shoutbow. Shoutbow replaces guardian because:
- it offers healing and cleanse at a greater range
- it can provide vigor
- it has selfish passive healing and cleansing ire - i.e. it has separate self-support and team-support, while a guardian had mostly team-support which had to also sustain themselves
- ^ it is consequentially much, much easier to play
- it has a viable "mid-way" build i.e. celestial, allowing it to deal more offensive pressure than a guardian can, while still providing strong support
- it is more mobile than a guardian, easily cleansing movement impairment conditions, gaining/granting swiftness without having to stand inside a symbol, and a low cd leap that does not require a target
- it has a banner res

D/P is actually seen with less spike that it used to be, because most run panic strike over executioner. Still, panic strike is an un-dodgable counter to any squishy, and carries many otherwise ineffective thieves. Traits like this should be removed. Undodgeable on-hit effects should not enable otherwise weaker builds to become so much more effective.

You can run a bunker guardian. It’s just not optimal because of the above listed reasons, mostly that without the passive healing and additional self-cleanses, it is forced into clerics, and by design it cannot achieve condi-cleanse and healing through the same mechanic - shouts, like a warrior - so it must use weapons for this, forcing it into defensive weapons and a high healing power amulet, meaning it cannot offer offensive pressure while maintaining it’s effectiveness as a team support/bunker role. If anything, it’s the whole "warriors have access to everything with ease" concept, the existence of the celestial amulet and existence of useful celestial builds on other classes that saw the bunker guardian take its leave from meta.

Fire/Air sigils do not define the meta.

All skills and effects that are triggered "on hit," and cannot be dodged after offering a visible tell that a charge is active so the player can see it and knowingly dodge it, should be removed. At least with intelligence and doom you do get a small tell, but it can be activated mid-attack so perfect timing can have a charge land on the target within 100ms of it being activated.

Fire/Air sigils.
Nightmare runes.
Air runes.
Reaper’s Protection.
Chill of Death.
Panic Strike.
The guardian hammer trait that chills/will slow (I forget the name).
Etc.

Effects like apply X when you apply Y are ok, because you can see the skills that would apply Y.
Effects like apply X on hit are very bad.

In an ideal world, the only instant-cast skills would be support based - but not too many so as to remove all counter-play i.e. timed interruption/poison - and there would be no instant-cast damaging abilities, or if there were they’d be extremely weak. ANet took measures to address this for Mug - it no longer critical hits. But since then have not given the same treatment to any other instant cast skill, like lightning strike, smite condition, arcane wave, and - although not instant-cast -, arguably reckless dodge, despite some hitting much harder, not being profession skills, and being on much shorter cool downs.

theoutsider.7849:

.. you see charr with son goku hair and balthazar armor on your team

LOL

Not the most appropriate sort of post, this, but I just had to.

S/D keeps slowly giving up more damage for survivability, making it less desirable as a berserker member of a team.
S/D old meta with executioner (2/6/0/0/6) is still viable but harder than D/P and the current S/D build, so is rarely seen.
D/P gave up some damage to go 6/0/2/0/6 for condi cleanse, but stayed with 1 full offensive line unlike S/D.
D/P with panic strike is extremely easy to play. Some thieves even get practically carried by that one trait vs. other berserkers.
D/P as a weapon set is safer when traveling the map due to the on demand stealth.
D/P can stealth it’s allies more often.

So basically there is an easier build for D/P now, it’s safer, and S/D’s superior mobility doesn’t count for as much when running a build that hits like a wet noodle. It wins its fights by out-lasting like a celestial build, but remains weak to conditions and doesn’t give any team support. This will likely change after the changes to trait lines and stats because S/D thieves will have the same offensive stats as other D/P and S/D builds instead of health, boon duration and condition damage, and they will also have panic strike which will even the field vs. panic strike D/P.

It seems we’re both right. I always thought it consumed charges when you got the effect from landing a skill, because it must have counted as a hit, in or out of combat. Cloak and dagger just gave me stealth without consuming basi on a building, which I can hit but not damage (same result while in and out of combat). Yet it gives me stealth and consumes basi on the Khylo crates that allow you to jump up onto one of the buildings to shortcut up to the clock tower, which cannot be damaged but had one noticeable difference from the buildings - hitting them puts you in combat. (Hitting the crates that can be destroyed by your weapon of course remove a charge and put you in combat too.) So it’s possible you hit a stealthed enemy sneaking past you, or an object which when hit consumed the charge. Given that I wasn’t 100% right initially, I’m not going to assume there aren’t other types of objects that can be hit which remove charges but might not put you in combat, whether from intention or a bug.

Some objects can be damaged, and therefore can be hit. This includes things you can damage with your weapon, such as the clocktower windows on Khylo, the stacks of boxes on Khylo, the trebuchet on Khylo and Stronghold, and the gates on Legacy and Stronghold. It also includes things you can’t damage with your weapon, such as the destroyable buildings and walls on Khylo and Stronghold. You can also use them to your advantage if you are running */D, because you can stealth off of them.

There will be diversity, just like there is now. It’ll just be unexplored. Eventually some builds will be proven superior and popularized, and they will go against the current meta builds. As with builds, there will be various team compositions tested using combinations of those new builds and current builds - meta and non-meta because of course, builds that aren’t meta could yet become meta. Again, eventually, some compositions will be proven superior and popularized, and they will go against the remaining current meta compositions and the new meta will begin to take shape. Shortly after that, the complaints of not enough diversity will return. The culprit is simply the long times between balance updates.

There are two ways I can think of. The first one is a team signs up with their classes and those classes cannot be changed. The second way aims to enforce this without completely killing multi-classing in tournaments by utilizing a substitution rule. For example:
When signing up for tournaments, each player signs up as a specific class, which they must then use. There can be up to two substitutes, also signed up as a specific class. The players on the main roster may be switched with substitutes, but in addition, they may also class swap to a class signed up as by one of their substitutes. To keep this fair for teams with less than two or no substitutes, players on the main roster may be signed up again as a different class for the purpose of substituting that class.

A potentially important point that might have been missed: it freezes upon opening each time, but there is no freezing when closing it or clicking the left/right arrows.

Being serious, in addition to the above-mentioned good ideas: put back the mystic forge! Going to LA and back to forge junk is inconvenient, especially if I can’t queue while doing so.

They have restyled it! Did you not see the Ready Up on specializations? They added a dolyak to HotM!

The real mesmer is the one that:
- Is not transparent
- Comes out of stealth
- Strafes
- Dodges
- Has signets (if the mesmer is using signets)
- Has stacks of bloodlust/perception etc. (if the mesmer is using stacking sigils)
- Has the most boons
- Hits harder

3.5k toughness 25k health.... If you have no offensive pressure they will just go full offensive and you’ll die anyway.

Mesmer:
- Squishy
- Weak to conditions
- GS auto hits less at melee range, but they tend to shatter more in melee range
- Pewpew ranger has more range
- Condition ranger has face-roll easy-mode condi pressure
- Learn to track the real mesmer, dodge important stuff like mirror blade and shatters, dodge phantasm skills

Elementalist:
- Squishy without protection
- Weak to conditions after leaving water attunement
- Main source of damage is burning
- Pewpew ranger saves burst until their protection times out
- Condition ranger applies chill and other conditions after the elementalist leaves water attunement
- Vs. D/D Ele: Learn to dodge earth quake, burning speed, ride the lightning, churning earth (if they actually use it), avoid as much burning as you can
- Vs. Scepter Ele: Learn to dodge phoenix, comet, arcane blast, anticipate air attunement, and avoid dragon’s tooth
- Vs. */Focus Ele: Stop your pewpew when they use magnetic wave to avoid getting it reflected, and don’t waste skills when they are inside swirling winds
- Vs. Staff Ele: Don’t stay in the red circles

Edited for different ele weapon sets.

vincecontix.1264:

Sunshine.5014:

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior meta confirmed with today blog post!

-snip-

What kind of unblockable attacks?

Didn’t think to actually look at the blog post >.>?

“For example, the Well of Precognition creates a well that alters the future of allies in the area, causing their attacks to become unblockable. When this well ends, affected allies can read the future for a short duration and evade all incoming attacks. Using this well tactically can help a team bust through defense-heavy foes while also protecting allies from counterattacks. Because there is a delay before the final effects trigger, they tend to be fairly strong. Most chronomancer wells have a fairly high recharge time, however, so be sure to keep the alacrity flowing.”

SA isn’t OP currently. If it were, most thieves would be running it.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals more than Mug. Stealth can miss and steal can miss, so missing excluded, Shadow’s Rejuvenation has more potential healing. It is a healing trait. That is its purpose. It is there to heal you when you need it, and to not be utilized when it is not needed, thus, in a fight it can just as easily heal less than mug as it can heal more.

The issue:
1) Thieves don’t take Mug for a heal. The heal can save us, and it’s a nice addition, but it’s taken primarily for the extra spike damage. You also pick up an extra 100 power at the cost of 2 trait points. Shadow’s Rejuvenation does not deal any damage, and getting it costs 2-6 points depending on how much it contributes to your investment into that trait line. You gain no offensive stats, only toughness and healing power which benefits regeneration if you take it, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation itself - thief heal skills scale poorly with healing power.
2) With more power and spike, you may take a few hits less due to killing your opponent that much faster - that is damage not taken. Avoiding damage while fighting is more beneficial than taking it and trying to heal through it.
3) To receive the heal from Mug, you must only land Steal which you would do anyway. To heal from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, you must stop dealing damage to sit in stealth, giving your opponent time to recover as well.
4) If Shadow’s Rejuvenation does indeed heal less than Mug would have in a fight, then it does not mean it is less healing than Mug, it just means you didn’t need the trait in that fight, which means it was wasted. Mug is never wasted.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

… You got a certain scrub under the account name of GoogleBrandon.5073 in your team

I’ve had this!

- When you have 3 rangers.
- When you see a ranger refuse to leave the ledge around foefire mid to cap/decap the empty point.
- When the enemy is trebbing and 2 more of them follow you as you move to attack it, yet your team has no points captured.
- When your allies simultaneously complain that they are 1v3.
- When everyone on your team complains that they are "alone," yet there are only 3 capture points perhaps because regrouping/waiting is too complex of an idea.
- When someone on your team starts complaining in map chat instead of making calls in team chat.
- When you recognise the enemy team and that they know how to rotate, and your guard says "i’m bunker mid," indicating he will AFK while they play sides.
- When your shoutbow doesn’t give swiftness at the start.
- When your thief dodges and you see caltrops.
- When a warrior summons 3 banners in the base during the warmup.