Guild Wars 2

My guess is a lot of you read my last post when I was angry about stealth thieves and how my steal recharge rate suddenly went from 21 seconds to 27.

So I was in the game with a buddy who I am showing how to play my condition build and how deadly it actually can be if played a certain way (If you don’t play it a specific way you get demolished, but played right….. bloody fun and deadly). I told my friend I was rather ticked off because my capabilities were diminished and I would need to re-think play style or going back to my old build while stealth thieves are still allowed their op’ness.

My friend made a comment and I discovered that apparently, while I was grabbing the new elite skills to own, I accidently changed to the “Bewildering Ambush” from the trait that grants me 20% reduction to steal recharge. So, I gave him crap because I had to come back to the forums and make an apology.

So I do apologize that a mistake on my part cause me to think I was stealthed nerfed and that everyone had to hear about it.

The rest of my post was still correct though. Blindness on stealth… healing while stealthed… removing condis while stealthed… being able to perform more dodges when revealed…. and being almost untouchable for almost a whole fight still is OP.

Since I never read any replies on the last post let me re-iterate that it is possible for a person playing a thief to close his eyes and win fights. I’ll even give hints.

1) Auto target of course has to be on.
2) Use dagger/pistol
3) Use withdraw as your heal skill.
4) Trait for MUG
5) Don’t fight where there are animals around to be targeted instead of your opponent.
6) Don’t fight a mesmer!!!

Seriously anet? Odds are if so many people hate on stealth thieves there is an issue. I cannot fathom how you do not understand this.

My non stealth build is weaker now while stealth thieves are just stupidly op still. Why did you change my steal cooldown to 27 seconds from 21? I don’t stealth so why penalize me and reward the most op class in the game?

Blind whenever they stealth?
Heal whenever they stealth?
Remove conditions on stealth?
Blind on stealth?

2 evades whenever they de-stealth? Did anyone even test how a 4 second reveal and 2 evades works out in combat? Did you even think of testing a blind with the evades?

So what… you can get 1 attack on a thief before he re-stealths? Explaaaaaiiiinnn how this is fair? Please… humor me and explain?

Currently I am deciding if I should leave the game or play my old stupidly op thief build. since “wow…. this is just stupid”.

What is really disgusting, is if I go back to my old thief build, I can beat some classes with my eyes closed just because of auto targeting and just listening. Pretty fair huh?

Obscure One.4357:

Silas Drake.8946:

Obscure One.4357:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Misinformation. Misinformation everywhere.

Yeap.

Clarifications
Stealth is a defensive means of mitigating damage by becoming untargetable. Stealth grants neither invulnerability nor stability. Note skills with long warm up times that are activated while the target is visible and then gains stealth during that time are not interrupted and target as normal. Subsequent attempts to target (or generally know where the player is) are nullified for the duration of said stealth, thereby mitigating direct damage by up to 100% depending on how well the attacking player can predict the position of an invisible target.

Just wanna throw this in there. Some attack need a target to active, not everything is melee sweeping auto attack or ground targetable. Also stealth provides(spec provided) a lot of condition removal, tons of healing over time, and in the case of say my Mesmer boons.

If stealth didn’t provide so much outside of its targeting issues and gaining the stealther position I think we would have a whole new conversation.

Imagine no healing and free offensive conditions removal in some way. Or even a penalty for healing.

I hope one day a mmo comes around without a pure invisible mechanic for stealth. It only brings headaches for both user and victim.
.

Incorrect

You are associating the things the Thief can do when activating or while being stealthed to the stealth effect itself. Stealth does not inherently cure conditions nor provide healing.

Really? When you trait it stealth DOES cure conditions and DOES heal. Do you even play the game?

Bethryn.4087:

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

Kind of hard when they are macroing their movements.

DaMikenatr.7041:

People cry that ranger is weak just like people cry that thieves are OP. A lot of those people just don’t understand the mechanics and haven’t looked around at different builds. Now the point that a lot of the above posts are going for is that yes, rangers a solid in small group settings. I run the same melee build on my ranger as a lot of other roamers do, no dispute there. However, when it comes to larger groups or zerg fighting, if you hope to contribute any to your team on top of tagging enemies, every other class can do things better. Need a water field? Ele’s produce 10x better fields and more frequently than healing spring. And all that stability you were talking about? It only works on yourself, and if you think you’re gonna run through and tank the damage that the stability is used for, you’re in for a surprise when you down halfway through. And don’t even get me started on pets in group fights, drop a meteor shower on it’s head and it’s game over. The way rangers are currently designed, they are built selfishly and for small groups. Do I agree with that decision? No, but rather than stick with ranger as my main and cry all the time, I rolled other classes for group fights.

We see this post over and over so here’s the TL;DR:
Groups consisting of less than 3 players: ranger is more than capable
Helpful for larger group synergy: roll something else

The thief does the exact same thing solo or in a zerg.
The ranger does the exact same thing whether solo or in a zerg.
3 Differences Between us:

1. difference is perception. I no have perception that when fighting, that how I play my thief is of much less use in a zerg fight. We are still going to affect the same amount of people in the same way. That will not be changed.

1. Difference is because I accept how a thief plays, and the fact I chose it as a main, I will not complain about it’s singular play style and how every class is better in a zerg fight. So I kill one person… .That person is no longer supporting the enemy. I kill a second person, and that person is no longer supporting the enemy. That’s how a thief and and ranger should work.

1. I understand that a single kill or removal of a single person in an enemy zerg can work to dismantle the whole enemy zerg. That seemingly small victory is in fact a large part of the whole victory. Look at the big picture not just the small one in front of you at that second.

DeadlySynz.3471:

It’s always good to see Rangers being successful at something but they have to realize, touting about winning in a 1v2, 2v3 or 2v4 situation against a group that probably isn’t spec’d for small group play is not impressive.

We have to face facts, there are roamers in WvW but they are few and far between compared to the zergers. In zerg play, your generally going to have a different build than roaming. A roamer attacking a zerger or a zerger on the way to the group isn’t entirely skillful because you should be winning 100% of the time hands down. That is unless you come across a warrior lol.

Opportunist yes, but skillful.. no. I believe it was already well known that Rangers are good in 1v1 and 1v2 or anything less than a group of 3 if spec’d right. Then again, so is every other class. In zerg play, other classes just plain excel past Rangers.

My main was a Ranger, played them since the beginning and had over 35K kills on WvW with them while barely dying (in full glass). Now I use an Ele because they are just plain better for that type of play.

Laughable and so very wrong.

A lot of the solo kills or double kills I have are because they came after me. Who in their right minds will go out of their way to attack a thief unless they expect to win? None unless they like to lose fights. These people do not just go away if I am not in WvW. They are also attacking people like the solo ranger I was talking about.

Couple other facts.

Almost every thief you see in wvw is in a roaming build.
You see a ton of D/D ele’s, even in zergs. They use roaming builds.
I’ve seen a good number of roaming engineers in highly effective roaming builds. My engi roaming build is just as awesome for zerg fighting. I’m actually going to log him in and play some WvW when I finish here.
A good number of necros these days are in roaming builds. I should know. I’m a thief and they go out of their way to attack me.
Any 2 man group with a thief or d/d ele you see running to a zerg has 1/2 half of their party in a roaming build guaranteed.

If you did not get my point, it is that there are a lot more people spec’d for roaming then you would like to admit.

Prysin.8542:

Jitters.9401:

Tricare.2946:

Rangers are strong when the size of the group they are with or fighting, is 3 or less. The more people that are added after that, the ranger should be replaced with another class that does what you want from the ranger, better.

Also, all good rangers could instantly tell you what build the person was running after a few seconds of fighting. Rangers only have 2 builds that work well and 30 points are always in the same trait line.

This post?

Your first part makes no sense. The ranger is equally as strong in every scenario. That will never change. Another perfect example is the backstab thief. They are always the same strength. The only issue is how they use that strength in zerg fighting.

You will see backstab thieves on the outskirts taking down squishies. Rangers can do their own version of that or just sit and tag as many enemies as possible for loot bags. Either way, their strength does not ever change. I’ve not seen any ranger doing anything but go straight for loot bag acquisition.

why would your average ranger do anything but lootbag acquisition?
Staff eles do it, however they can offer more then just heavy AOE DPS. Staff Guards does it, staff necros does it, grenade/FT engies does it.

Unlike the other professions, rangers can just equip longbow, piercing arrows, 2 stunbreakers, 1 invuln, trait for passive condi removal and an elite giving them half a minute of stability…. it is EZMODE, to roll a tagging build. total ezmode. zero effort maximum profit.

Heyyy thank you thank you. You just defended my post and the post of the fellow who said the ranger class attracts the lazier people in all mmo’s

Why would they? Exactly. They don’t and because they don’t they have no right to say anything negative about the ranger when it comes to WvW. They lost all that right the moment they decided to as little as possible for maximum gain.

What I find Super Super Super funny is that after I started this post about a Ranger who was beating person after person 1v1 and winning almost ever 1v2 he was in, people still write their posts like it is an impossibility.

This is how it works.
I spent over an hour watching this lady or fellow WIN against my server and the other enemy server. I know some of the people he beat and they are highly considered good wvw’ers.

So if I have to examine what I witnessed against known good wvw’ers and what an unknown writes on a forum. I think I will go with what I have seen as true.

And that is…… the ranger class can be built to dominate fights.

Tricare.2946:

Rangers are strong when the size of the group they are with or fighting, is 3 or less. The more people that are added after that, the ranger should be replaced with another class that does what you want from the ranger, better.

Also, all good rangers could instantly tell you what build the person was running after a few seconds of fighting. Rangers only have 2 builds that work well and 30 points are always in the same trait line.

This post?

Your first part makes no sense. The ranger is equally as strong in every scenario. That will never change. Another perfect example is the backstab thief. They are always the same strength. The only issue is how they use that strength in zerg fighting.

You will see backstab thieves on the outskirts taking down squishies. Rangers can do their own version of that or just sit and tag as many enemies as possible for loot bags. Either way, their strength does not ever change. I’ve not seen any ranger doing anything but go straight for loot bag acquisition.

Dee Jay.2460:

The Ranger class itself does have a few very strong builds (Spirit Rangers) and can require some finesse to play well.

Unfortunately the Ranger archetype has also established itself as the MMO profession that attracts the largest portion of slackers, afkers and poor players. They are generally drawn to this archetype because the pet combined with a ranged weapon makes it virtually impossible to fail.

It’s been the same in every MMO and GW2 is no exception.

Yes, Rangers could do with a rework, especially concerning passive play and pet AI. But it’s the Ranger player-base themselves that have earned it the terrible reputation it has.

100% agree. I saw a ranger afk the lions arch scarlet fight and not die.

Tricare.2946:

Prysin.8542:

2 builds?
yes, that would be true, if it was still july 2013.

Yeah, there are more than 2. However, they are just variations of builds, with the same base set up. There are no good power builds, you will die to all conditions.

Every class dies to conditions.

Aioros.4862:

There is no speccing for blob as a ranger, that is the point.
That ranger has 1 or 2 good builds for spvp and roaming we already knew, you didn’t strike gold.
Too bad WvW is not about roaming.

Made me laugh.

You did read I play a thief right? How many builds do you think a thief has to choose from? A backstab thief plays the same build roaming/havoking/blobbing. A condition thief does the same.

The only difference I use if I am in a blob, is I will use caltrops and dagger storm for keep defense. You shadow refuge inside the keep. roll out the doors, drop caltrops on the rams or a group behind the rams (depending how they are attacking), then start to dagger storm so they do not realize their are caltrops are bleeding them. They stay in the circle trying to kill the solo thief, and their health levels plummet. Lots of fun to do right before your back up squad attacks.

sminkiottone.6972:

Not sure if trolling or what…

mesmer, thief and engi are better roamers, guardian and warrior are better in zerging, ele/necro are better at support.

ranger excels in nothing

Not a troll. I have a guardian partner and we kill any 2/3 and most 4 man groups we come across. He is getting his ranger up to speed and I am looking forward to two man roaming with it because I know first hand how effective a proper ranger roaming build can be.

The ranger that partied with me stood roughly equal distance between the SW garrison gate and East Bay gate just waiting for 1v1 and 1v2 fights. I watched his health, I watched the condi’s and vulnerabilities on him, and I watched him dispatch every 1v1 and almost every 1v2.

So if this guy can do it, others can do it. Maybe part of the problem is ranger players have been brainwashed that their professions are so bad they will never win.

YAh, No.

I had a brutally fun fight with a ranger, and after I won he partied me (I thought it was removed, but he was still able to do it). He was harder to fight then almost every backstab thief I put the beatdown on.

Anyway, we chatted and I watched him destroy person after person solo and beat almost every 1vs2 he was in. It was a blast to watch.

It isn’t the class that is crappy, it is the builds people are using, and probably play style.
If you spec for blob fighting, then you will get buried 100% in a 1v1. How can you expect anything else?

Ok, so I am in the DB/SBI/SOR match up for the umpteenth time. DB runs all over everything because of their numbers.

When there is a huge imbalance all that needs to happen is the two smaller servers make an agreement with each other and the huge server that they will do 2 small vs 1 large server. Easy as punch.

As long as the majority agrees why not? I do not care about points, but it is the fighting. I would expect the majority of DB would rather enjoy the new hectic pace.

Only 1 important thing would have to be adhered to. If DB was going to take 1st spot, they they should be guaranteed 1st spot from the SBI and SOR.

Envy.8093:

Stun with pistol whip. Large aoe damage with Pistol whip. Evade with Pistol Whip. Interrupts with Pistol (and Blind if used in field). Aoe blind with Pistol. Whirling Axes Blind spam with Pistol Offhand. Reflect with Whirling Axes. Whirling Axes doing large aoe damage.

Large kitten teleport. Clears 3 condis. Can be used to decap and still rubberband back in time.
Can teleport in, spam EVADING pistolwhip that STUNS and teleport out. Rinse and repeat.

STEALTH – The concept of getting the first hit (that blinds -_-) is kittening OP. Poison field from shortbow, doesnt break stealth either (wtf?).

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Play a thief before you post. Can’t believe you even used the words “Pistol Whip” when it comes to pvp. If you had any merit to your post, that alone wiped it out.

Liza.2758:

shorter reveal

Since when?

[/quote]

Okay, a 12 k Backstab would be on a full zerker ele/ranger with absolutely no sustain and the thief has 5-10 stacks of might. As I said, an opening chain of a Backstab thief happens so fast that the total damage is recorded as one hit, causing so many misconceptions about thieves. Second, in that 6-8 second down time, which you are pretty accurate about, a thief can die very easily. You also have to consider that Backstab doesn’t always hot their back when in mid fight, so the chances of dealing 8k damage (a more realistic Backstab against a decently built WvWer) drop because you bed to position yourself perfectly. While this is easier on some races (I.e. Norn) and very difficult on some (I.e. Asura) it makes a difference in the outcome of the fight. If you don’t hit the back, you do significantly less damage, dropping that 8k to a measly 5-6k. This is a power necros life blast. This is an Eviscerate. This is damage every class can do in 1 skill, while thief requires 2-3 depending if mug is on or not.
Don’t act like you are so smart with numbers, those are in an ideal situation. The chance of doing 12k is an idealistic scenario where you are fighting a full zerk target who has no sustain built into their build. So this happens a lot against rangers and Mesmers, that’s about it. [/quote]

That’s funny. I don’t wear any zerk on any of my toons and neither do many others. I wear a vitality/toughness mix of gear with my thief to make up for condition and direct damage as much as I can, and wow.. I still get hit for 12k. You do know how to stack for max crit damage right? Maybe not by your replies.

It isn’t a matter of being smart with numbers. It is a matter of checking my combat logs and knowing how to play against a thief who stealths.

I can squash any argument you have, will have, and did have with one statement.

Who is more believable… The thieves who refuse to play a style because they say it is far over powered and skill-less, or the thieves who say it is balanced and continue to play it?

Answer is obvious.

Huzzah

sierras.6297:

There isn’t even perma stealth! We have a 3 second reveal every time we attack out of stealth. You guys need to sop using stealth as a scapegoat for your inconpetance in fighting them! I have 3 other classes to 80 and can kill almost all thieves. Beefing stealth isn’t he answer. Needing anything on thief right now isn’t the answer. L2P is the answer, no matter how overused and stale it is, it is true. If you are running a full zerker build in WvW, and get 3 hit by a thief (Thieves 3 hit people, it’s simply they can do such a large amount of damage in such a short time the combat log says “Thief has hit you for x amount of damage with Backstab”), it’s quite honestly your own fault for running full zerker. It’s no different than when people would whisper me my power necro was OP because life blast was critting for 5-6k because that was how I built my necro, and I was squishy as hell.
So what am I trying to say, well, stealth is the thirds only for of survivability. It isn’t a broken concept like so many of you say, it isn’t OP kitten many as you say, and it most definitely isn’t a safe guard like many of you say. It is susceptible to any smart player, because thieves go into stealth so they won’t get hit because thieves are very squishy. Stealth isn’t an insta heal, nor a form of evade/blocking. If you hit a thief in stealth, it usually doesn’t fair well for the thief. I just want people to stop complaining about stealth being OP, it’s a very well designed concept.
And finally, to all those saying “Stealth spammers” and “Permastealth”, THOSE DONT EXIST! You can’t attack repeatedly while in stealth because of the 3 second reveal that has been implemented, so this directly effects in fighting style of ALL thieves in an absolute total of 0 ways. Even DP can’t maintain perma stealth any more. Since stealthing while in stealth doesn’t give initiative any more, you run out of initiative at 8 seconds, and it takes more than 8 seconds to get all the initiative back.

I’ve already stated the facts that the thief auto attacks are higher damaging then most abilities with cool downs. Example.. Backstab uses no initiative points and can be traited to crit 100% of the time and has only the stealth reveal as a cool down. What other class has an ability that can do up to 12k (depending on the target) every 6-8 seconds. I say 6-8 because you need to set up the backstab beyond the reveal time out.

Besides. A thief doesn’t need to use initiative abilities beyond stealthing.

And again I smoosh stealth thief arguments with factual information.

Decent thieves don’t need perma stealth to compete.

Exactly!!!

You know how I came to think about using the shortbow for wvw? I saw a thief using a shortbow against multiple people and he was really good. I thought to myself, how does he do it?

Sooooo, I tried it. Went through the traits and skills I can choose from. Tried different settings. Changed my gear out for conditions. Went to wvw and lost a number of times while learning. I never gave up and now love it immensely.

Instead of asking me to do a video, I challenge stealth thieves to try it and not give up at the start due to it not being easy peasy. Do some work and enjoy the rewards. That is exactly what I did.

Once you start to control the fights you will have a ton of fun.

Kanenas.4906:

JakobGW.5730:

Kanenas.4906:

Could you please tell me how you remove conditions? With P/D and shortbow?
And do not say Pain Response, please. I wait some serious arguments from you.

Perhaps he could give us a link to a video of his play. That would help settle this little debate.

So, Jitters, up to that challenge? Let us watch you and let us decide for ourselves.

Come on man, the guy said that he never lost to a warrior, using as utilities shadow refuge, blinding powder, and skale venom!!!!! No stun braker! And killed them with poison, torment from venom and bleedings from short bow 2…..

I wander why people feel the need to make stories and post them at a game’s forum.

And this is why you will never succeed at a skillful thief. Because you do not know your class nor have the desire to understand it to its fullest extent.

So stop being a cave man living in a renaissance world. I know what I do seems like magic to you, but it is pretty simple to figure out. L2p and enjoy the game.

Edit.
The closes thing I have to a stun breaker is “infiltrators arrow”. Don’t need anything else when you actually know how to play.

Kanenas.4906:

“I have two layouts of stealth. Weapon sets Pistol/Dagger Shortbow.

1) Hide in shadows and Shadow Refuge.
2) Shadow refuge and Black Powder (my heal skill is withdraw)

I know I can use cloak and dagger, but I do not. …"

You wrote it no?

As I said you use only 2 condition removal skills (if traited)? One at 40 sec CD (Black Powder) and the other at 60(Shadow Refuge).

Could you please tell me how you remove conditions? With P/D and shortbow?
And do not say Pain Response, please. I wait some serious arguments from you.

My only condition removal tool is Hide In Shadows. I do not trait for removing a condition on stealth. It is not needed for 99% of the fights.

I’ll give you an idea, but you figure it out yourself like I did. Remember, the last loss I had was to a condition necro, so I am not immune to crazy condition damage. Good Thieves know when to take the abuse and not remove it.

Two Main Focus Points on Stealth Thieves and Non Stealth Play Styles.

1) Non stealth thieves actually know the class because they do not limit themselves.
2) Non stealth really need to play smart and play to limit damage, not avoid damage. Limiting and avoiding are vastly different, because in my case I know I will get hit. In your case, you know the stealth avoids damage.

If we can limit the abuse we take, we control the fights. The moment we control the fights We Actually Make You Think You Need to Perform An Action When It Really Isn’t Needed. Annnd you waste abilities with cooldowns and/or initiative.

In reality, all my fights are me making you do what I want you to do. The moment that occurs, the fight is mine.

A shout out to the Ranger who can kill a stealth thief. You my friend know your class well. Kudos.

Kanenas.4906:

Jitters.9401:

zip

So, you say you survive the current condition meta with only 2 condition removal skills (if traited)? One at 40 sec CD and the other at 60? Cool story bro.

That said I believe that the D/P set needs to brought down a bit. The blind finisher at 5 is not needed.

You need to not just l2p, but maybe a l2read as well. I primarily shortbow.

But seriously..

1)Just because you cannot understand how to play a style does not mean it is not viable. It means you need to l2p.

2) You have no idea what traits I use or my play style yet you make weak comments. I on the other hand know fully well your stealth play style and say it is op.

Smoooosh goes your post.

Thank You. Come Again.

style.6173:

Straegen.2938:

RyuDragnier.9476:

style.6173:

Straegen.2938:

As I have said before the problem lies with Heartseeker in the same weapon set as Blinding Powder. Switching Death Blossom and Heartseeker would effectively “fix” the D/P issue most players have grown to hate.

Actually death blossom should be removed from D/D. A condi attack does not fit into a weaponset that also has the biggest burst.

It’s a hybrid setup. Mainhand dagger is direct damage, offhand dagger is support.

Most thieves never press the button for Death Blossom since we are initiative bound rather than timer bound. That skill only makes sense on a condition build and even then probably not that great for D/D. I wouldn’t mind if DB was switched out for something else preferably a utility skill with a blind or daze on it but D/D already seems fairly well balanced to me.

I’d like to see death blossom removed completely from D/D and instead add a new skill. At the same time, thieves should get a new weapon that would allow for melee condition attacks.

It rules for pve. That’s about it.

[/quote]

A P/D thief that thinks he better than the rest of the thieves…

You do know P/D is a “cheese” weapon set? It’s almost as cheesy as D/P.

You probably think your kitten doesn’t smell. [/quote]
Why is his spec cheese, yet perma stealth abuse isn’t?
[/quote]

It is a week tactic to grasp for straws no matter how lame they are, in order to try and defend himself.

What I find funny is at no point in time did I even suggest I was better than any other thief. What my message says is that us thieves in general are stronger then other classes (remember I pointed out that our dagger auto attacks do more damage then many activated abilities with cool downs), even when we do not use something terribly overpowered as stealth.

P/D…. I use only two skills… My auto attack skill and my #3 ability which allows me to dagger hit then pop backwards for a pistol shot. That is the skill I use on stealth thieves to kill them. For WvW, I primarily use shortbow, which is super fun and needs actual skill.

You know I can do this all day… Show how a stealth thief build is so far op that there should be changes.

I would get rid of blackpowder/HS stealthing. That way there are no more less then mediocre skilled thieves who think they are the coolest thing since sliced bread for no reason other then they play an op build.

hihey.1075:

urieldhynne.2743:

We are talking about thief right now.

And I say people here need to focus more on the main topic.
Because, as I see it, this thread (and God knows why I still read it) has turned into a “nerf thieves”, with hundreds of statements of people that should just lower their ego and accept the fact that they CANNOT kill a DECENT thief who does not want to die IN WvW.

First it started with “I am pro pvp player and I’m kittened that a thief won a 1v3 (because of stealth)”.
Then it became “Thief damage potential is too high, 15k burst every 3s wtf!”
And finally it turned into “Thieves resets fights because of stealth”.

Make up your minds, lads. If thieves get deleted you would still find something else to complain at. Most likely warriors, because they can win a 1v3, they can burst 15k easily if facing terrible players (of which these forums are full), and can easily disengage at will.

Also, any PU mesmer with traited 1200 blink can disengage really easily. Just chain 1 stealth with a blink in another direction and you’ll be ooc in no time.

This is too funny. Remember. I use two and only two stealth abilities and I have yet to lose to a warrior. I have never lost to a ranger, but even the best ranger is almost guaranteed an easy kill for a thief who uses 1 stealth.

Back when I ran full zerk gear, my only stealth (withdraw made things more fun and hectic) in a fight was blinding powder. I killed them 100% of the time with just shadow shot and my crazy high crit%.

Really now…. Who should people believe. Thieves who use the stealth mechanic to the extreme and think it is fine to kill 3 people at a time, or a thief who refuses to abuse the system in order to make the fights as fair as possible and based upon skills only while winning 70% + of his 1v1 fights even when using only 1 stealth skill?

The only decent thieves are those who play with skill and not rely on cheap tactics. If stealth is changed then the good thieves will still play, but the cheap ones will move along to the next cheapest build.

Frigid.6027:

if you lost a fight 3v1, you should rethink your playstyle and not cry about the guy who collected bags. Zerker rangers have always been thief food.

Stealth is our condition removal and our way of surviving. Learn to fight it or wait a few years for anet to give us builds where we dont need stealth for everything.

Poppykitten to the extreme on your response.

Thieves do not need to stealth for everything. Hide and shadow is fine as a condition removal tool.

If someone wants to hear a real opinion from a thief… one that is unbiased and factual… Listen to me. Not someone who defends the wickedly overpowered stealth abilities.

I have two layouts of stealth. Weapon sets Pistol/Dagger Shortbow.

1) Hide in shadows and Shadow Refuge.
2) Shadow refuge and Black Powder (my heal skill is withdraw)

I know I can use cloak and dagger, but I do not. I like to be fair with people I am fighting. Anywhoooo.. My survivability is crazy good. I use the aoe poison/bleed shortbow skill plus torment (skale venom), and always keep initiative points available for my #5 skill to teleport.

I win almost every 1v1 (lost one two days ago to a crazy good necro) and I have won a number of 2v1/3v1… by using only two stealth skills.

The problem with stealth thieves, is they actually fight better against multiple people

This is because the thief controls the fight. The moment you have to wonder who will be next and you are at a disadvantage. 1v1 against a stealth thief… you know what is next 100% of the time and to whom. Makes the fight easier.

In stealth the thief builds energy for dodging. Then when they break stealth by attacking, they auto attack (thief dagger auto attack damage is higher than most activate damage abilities). They get a free hit or two due to reaction time. If there is more then one opponent, then time to react is longer (due to orientation and such).
Then dodge roll away from the crowd control which we know comes first, then heart seeker + stealth when the reveal is up. Rinse repeat.

Something here you should know. The stealth thief does not use auto targeting. They don’t even have to target the victim, just face. With the trait that provides 100% crit to the next attack out of stealth, they just need to face the victim, do insane damage, dodge roll through the victim while the victim turns to fight. Gotta remember that the moment they react, people try to use a stun or immobilize ability to get that thief. But due to evasion, that ability misses, which allows the thief to escape over and over.

Lastly… The best (or so people think) stealth thieves out there use macros which in itself is cheating. If you know the thief well, than it is easy to spot, but hard to prove.

So to summarize here. A stealth thief is just a cheap way to play for people with zero skills, and no desire to play fair. That is why I do not use one.

Karolis.4261:

Jitters.9401:

Karolis.4261:

Am i the only one who noticed that OP suggests adding revealed debuff after backstab (only the one that follows BP+HS combo though for some reason) ? That would be so wrong and broken in so many ways !!! No, just no!
Sarcasm off now. Dear Op that is curent mechanics that we have. Everytime you couse direct damage with ANY of your skills you get revealed for 3s in pve/www and 4s in pvp mode. Oh and any stealth has reveal once you attack out of it. At least thats how mesmer stealt affects other classes ( )

Maybe there is a bug in the system. I’ve backstabbed someone and gone straight into black powder and heart seeker stealth without being visible for 4 seconds, but That will be something the dev’s need to figure out.

There is a silver general I’ve reported from maguuma who rarely has any reveal. maybe once in every 6 attacks out of stealth he does not instantly stealth again.

I play Thief for over a year now and never witnessed such bug as no revealed after attack in my gameplay. Person who skips the revealed part of rotation is a cheater. If you skip revealed part of rotation and stealth instantly following backstab you are a cheater my friend. So i highly suggest you watching that youtube video showing how Bp+Hs+Bs combo works and trying it again and again untill u actually realise how it works.

Really? Lack any understanding of the written english language? I guess Just because “YOU” know everything there is about the game anything anyone else sees is suspicious? Might want to grow up a little and talk like an adult instead of accuse.

But, If you have reading issues I can record what I said in my first post and let you hear it… though technically i did spell it out for you.

Short Form…. I refuse to play stealth thief. I have seen my thief go right into stealth from a backstab not because that was my plan, but it happened. I’ve even been reporting, including screen shots, of thieves who have no reveal. I refuse to cheat hence how I play.

I use two stealth skills only. Shadow refuge and Hide in Shadows.

So then child… do you understand this? When you be an adult you can come back to this posting.

Karolis.4261:

Am i the only one who noticed that OP suggests adding revealed debuff after backstab (only the one that follows BP+HS combo though for some reason) ? That would be so wrong and broken in so many ways !!! No, just no!
Sarcasm off now. Dear Op that is curent mechanics that we have. Everytime you couse direct damage with ANY of your skills you get revealed for 3s in pve/www and 4s in pvp mode. Oh and any stealth has reveal once you attack out of it. At least thats how mesmer stealt affects other classes ( )

Maybe there is a bug in the system. I’ve backstabbed someone and gone straight into black powder and heart seeker stealth without being visible for 4 seconds, but That will be something the dev’s need to figure out.

There is a silver general I’ve reported from maguuma who rarely has any reveal. maybe once in every 6 attacks out of stealth he does not instantly stealth again.

Handin.4032:

Blocks and maybe even evaded attacks should pop revealed. Thieves and mesmers (I play stealth mesmer) need to be penalized for poor play when in stealth. Thieves can continue to attack while in stealth even if the person their fighting is blocking them using scepter block, or gear shield etc. No matter what, attacking should drop you out of stealth.

Blocked and evaded attacks should never break stealth. That would move thieves to a class so weak they may as well go into wvw as a lvl 1 with lvl 1 traits and lvl 1 gear and only auto attack as an ability.

Just put reveal on black powder stealth and that would help level the playing field.

I respect your thoughts. I’m just going by how easy I can dominate with the stealth mechanics.

First off..
1) I have both at 80 and geared for WvW. I’ve played both from Zerk spec to Condition Spec. The Thief is my favorite though. I play it with only shadow refuge and hide in shadows as my stealth. I REFUSE to play the extremely cheap way.

2) There are certain ways of playing them which is by far overpowered against any class. There needs to be a balance and fairness across the board.

3) The over powered/stupid way uses no skill but, in most cases macros and therefore no fun. It is easy to see who macros in abilities so one key press does multiple actions. Fixing the stealth issues will stop a lot of this.

4) The blackpowder/heartseeker stealth means the thief can have near permanent regeneration going on during combat. “Shadow Protector” gives base 1738 health over 10 seconds. Shadow Rejuv heals you each second you are in stealth. I get around 500 health per tick for the two combined. 12 seconds of invis due to shadow refuge alone will get me about 6000 health. Add in the HS stealth and that is another 2000 health in 4 seconds. who cares about heal debuffs when stealth can be applied at will until all damage is negated.

Want to fix stealth for thief? Put a reveal on the stealth which comes from blackpowder/heartseeker. 4 seconds which means right after the backstab they cannot restealth and just keep regening health non stop like so many do. Makes it fair for those classes who cannot stealth and heal up when ever they feel like it.

Want to fix stealth for Mesmer? Give their stealth a reveal. On my thief I use 2 and only two stealths, which are abilities and have reveal. On my mesmer I have 3 different stealth abilities and no reveal. With all the dodging and clones I have the stealth just makes me impossible to kill unless I get jumped by three or more enemies.

So.. Like I said. These are the two classes I play for WvW and I find them both far too powerful when using the stealth mechanics the abusive way. My fix is what I would like to see for the classes in order to make them wvw on par with other classes. But for now… my choice is to play them the non ridiculous way.

I just logged in to report the same thing. The mail it came in said it was for a replacement. But since it is a gift for a gem purchase I will just say thanks.

This is a legit question considering everything that has been going on.

Been a good day of watching yak’s players far far inside our citadel attacking our golems… on more then one occasion.

Also been a good day watching yak’s and maguuma barely hit each other while our bl is full of enemies.

Coincidence how it was allowed to occur last match up and this match up? No. I don’t think so.

What is your problem anet? Any sort of alliance breaks your mechanisms for being outnumbered yet you allow it to occur over and over. What do you think will happen when every match follows the same sort of exploiting you are doing in the sbi, yak’s, maguuma matchup?

A lot of fed up people quitting because of your complacency in the allowing of circumventing your balancing mechanics.

Maybe you guys need to play a different game.

I’ll never read this post again, and i know it will be deleted. But at least I got to put into the open how you promote and accept cheating… If only for a brief time.

[/quote]
Poor Thief has one counter that no one runs in WvW and is complaining he died for the first time even though you can still escape anything with a Shadowstep into a Shadow Refuge.
[/quote]

Why do people write things when they obviously do not wvw more then once per week?

Let me see here….. In about 6 fights since the patch I came across 4 who pretty much perma immobilized me. If you shadow step then instantly shadow refuge you really are making no difference what so ever.

You are still immobilized and easy to hit. Stealth does nothing when you cannot move, but make sure you get hit more often because they know where you pretty much are. Same with any stealth skill. You still are in that one spot.

During one of my fights the guardian ran off, and I sill sat there for far too long not being able to move. Maybe 8-10 seconds after the fight was over before I could move.

Now in reality. If you do not know how to fight a thief you need to uninstall. I knew how to handle perma stealth thieves with both my own (non perma stealth) thief and mesmer. But then. I actually wvw.

Xsorus.2507:

"""Nope, i’m pretty sure relying on your own fair weathers + an entire other server of fair weathers is more embarrassing."""

You should know it well. E-bay and Yak armies are full of fair weathers at the moment. So in reality… you need two servers AND fair weathers. At least my wvw ranks have been flying up soloing 2 or 3 of you guys at a time…. but really…. You guys might just try and get better at WvW instead of relying on hordes of poorly skilled people from two servers.

Ralathar.7236:

Situation mesmer/thief team well versed in perma-stealth and hiding is in your keep after a flip. How do you reliably counter this? There isn’t a reliable counter currently.

Permastealth mesmer portal teams need a reliable and viable counter. Currently the best available “counter” is to try and throw enough people at the teams and hope you get lucky and hope they are not good. IE sweeping. Otherwise you might as well hand the keep back over.

I’ve spent alot of time trying to think up and test viable counters. I’ve asked many people about viable counters. I’ve been part of countless discussions on viable counters. I even made a thread on the mesmer forum asking for viable counters. I’ve put in the time trying to find the answer but there is currently no reliable counter in existence to the best of my knowledge. This is untrue of any other tactic in the game that I know of.

Mesmer thread located here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Portals-Objectives-Play-and-Counterplay/first#post2052825

So ya, please give a reliable counter to this tactic so that it has valid play and counter-play. Currently it’s just frustrating, luck based, and requires a heavy investment of people vs an extremely light investment of their people (2) if they are good.

Like the guy below you said. It is easy to spot. The abilities are blatantly obvious when they are going off. Me thinks you guys are not doing actual mesmer/thief sweeps because you are too lazy, so you come here to complain.

Niim.9260:

I think it was WAR that let you buy special guards with upgrades, they had stealth detection. I liked how it worked there and it might be a good solution to this problem.

Better solution is for you to quit the game. Otherwise thieves will get armor piercing to offset warrior and guardian armor levels. Thieves will also get an ability to always stay on target to the mesmer when he pops illusions. The thief will also get increased toughness and hitpoints to offset their inability to survive.

You understanding what I say here?

Dawdler.8521:

Korgov.7645:

This seems like a good, simple counter. Nothing to be laughed at. This would also address a lot of other complaints about stealth.

Its not good at all, since it negate one of the primary purposes of stealth – being stealthy.

You want to know the simplest solution? 2 things:
- Taking direct damage breaks stealth (conditions dont count)
- Exiting stealth put a 4s reveal debuff buff until you can stealth again.

No more blatantly obvious veil rushes (just put a single AoE field in front of them), no more thief chain stealthing, no stealth stomps in the middle of zergs, no more flailing in the air against invisible theives laying downed for 20 seconds because they popped the house, no more thieves or mesmers hiding inside keeps, more more moving 100m+ while invisible, etc and so on.

Would this nerf thieves and mesmers stealthing? Hell yes, that’s the point. In turn, buff the timer the skills to allow them to remain in stealth just a notch longer (if veil last 4s now, make it last 6s or something).

Do you not realize the stupidity of nerfing a class because you do not like the way two classes work?

What we need is for the people who play little to no pvp to stop making useless comments on the forums. All I do is pvp. I would far rather fight a thief then a mesmer. Mesmers have crazy utility and abilities. I should know since I play one as well.

But funny thing is I never call for a nerf on classes that give me a hard time. I just learn to play better. You all might try that.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Bern.9613:

I will speak on behalf of the thief as my main is one. A thief will not survive an aoe barrage because it has the lowest hp, toughness, survivability of ALL of the warrior classes. They do this because to survive is to eliminate the target before it has a chance to eliminate you. High, fast dps. So unless you’re also suggesting that ANet ups the stats of the thief….

This is a common lie spread on these forums. I was today playing a thief. I went to Bloodtide Coast, which is a level 45-55 area with a level 41 thief. My friend was a level 53 guardian. Guess how many times I died? ZERO… But my guardian friend died.

My guardian friend left and I was killing the monsters and mobs alone. It went a bit slow due getting glancing blows all the time (>= 5 levels higher monsters than me), but there was still no risk of dying. Even when doing group event alone and all the enemy mobs were much higher level than me!! And if you get downed you can still get up so easily (so no armor repairs bills at all). I gained couple of levels.

Thief is among the easiest professions. Amazing survivability and exactly as good armor as engineers and rangers have. You can literally stand next to enemy bosses: blind, stealth, huge damage. Tons of evade, caltrops on dodges, need I go on? In fact I don’t remember the last time when I died playing a thief.

But I refuse to play such a face roll profession against real human players.

This is a common lie too it seems.

Your friend died because he took all the abuse. That is what guardians do. You lived because you kept dumping aggro on him whenever you stealthed.

My mesmer was by far more capable in PvE then my thief. In fact, My mesmer was able to control fights and kill veterans my thief was not able to solo.

And lastly.. you are comparing pve to pve. Really? Moots your whole argument right there. But then we all know you don’t play a thief.