Why does everyone think we're OP?

Why does everyone think we're OP?

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Posted by: Jelzouki.4128

Jelzouki.4128

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

http://strawpoll.me/3648686/r Queue for PvP from any map. Vote Here. Zojoel [ASAP Zerg]

(edited by Jelzouki.4128)

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Posted by: Liza.2758

Liza.2758

it’s fine in spvp, tpvp.

it’s just broken in wvw with 99% of ppl running troll stealth ( shadow arts ) and shorter reveal

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: Sunt.6835

Sunt.6835

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

BG

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Posted by: Carpboy.7145

Carpboy.7145

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

Yes in tpvp SA is extremely broken. i forgot about that gm SA trait that allows you to decap points while stealthed. Good thing its banned in tournaments or this’d be OP.


The Use of the Word ‘Cheese’
Lyss The Shadow
Legendary Champion of DB [EDGE]

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Posted by: Karolis.4261

Karolis.4261

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

Yes in tpvp SA is extremely broken. i forgot about that gm SA trait that allows you to decap points while stealthed. Good thing its banned in tournaments or this’d be OP.

And what trait might that be, doc?
And SA is “banned” in player organised tournaments because that can prolong fights indefinately without someone dieing, specially when 2x D/P thieves meet, not because of some trait, which dont exist, that lets u cap points while stealthed. Since i mentioned it – stealth preventing capping is simply stupid thing that cry babies brought to this game. You cant chase off stealthed thief from spvp sized cap point ? I mean… seriously ?

PvP hero Valentin in action!
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(edited by Karolis.4261)

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Posted by: Sunt.6835

Sunt.6835

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

Yes in tpvp SA is extremely broken. i forgot about that gm SA trait that allows you to decap points while stealthed. Good thing its banned in tournaments or this’d be OP.

lol do you know 2v2 touney ? not point holding one

BG

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Posted by: Carpboy.7145

Carpboy.7145

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

Yes in tpvp SA is extremely broken. i forgot about that gm SA trait that allows you to decap points while stealthed. Good thing its banned in tournaments or this’d be OP.

And what trait might that be, doc?

I think its called sarcasm or something :/


The Use of the Word ‘Cheese’
Lyss The Shadow
Legendary Champion of DB [EDGE]

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Posted by: Karolis.4261

Karolis.4261

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

Yes in tpvp SA is extremely broken. i forgot about that gm SA trait that allows you to decap points while stealthed. Good thing its banned in tournaments or this’d be OP.

And what trait might that be, doc?

I think its called sarcasm or something :/

I apologize then. In these forums its hard to differ sarcasm from “serious” statements and suggestions, specially when it comes to thief.

PvP hero Valentin in action!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HiYUlhsO_M
cough*keyboardturningclicker*cough

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

because thieves and mesmers are only classes hat can go in stealth constantly and don’t just sit there like training dummy and fight toe to toe

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Splatter Paw.7238

Splatter Paw.7238

Because most players are like npc’s….. you stealth and they just stand there waiting…..

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Posted by: ens.9854

ens.9854

Teleports are always OP in every game that has them and thief has the most teleports therefore thief OP u welcome

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

Teleports are always OP in every game that has them and thief has the most teleports therefore thief OP u welcome

Ok and what makes “teleports” OP?
And why is a class with a lot of hardcounter fine, while a class, who is nearly dead in PvE OP?

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

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Posted by: Alex Behemoth.4952

Alex Behemoth.4952

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

You are right. 1 more second for reveal makes no difference that is why you should also support adding 4 second reveal for WvW like in PvP.

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

You are right. 1 more second for reveal makes no difference that is why you should also support adding 4 second reveal for WvW like in PvP.

Ehh people would cry and moan over it like the last time. I don’t like seeing splits between pvp/pve(wvw) even if it is sometimes necessary simply because they have different standards of what it qualifies to be efficient. But I don’t like walking into a different game mode to find my mechanics have changed, it makes mental awareness that much harder to follow (usually I KNOW when reveal is going to wear off for pve/wvw, but often I mess up and “stealth” while still revealed in pvp.) Not suggesting removing the 4 seconds from pvp, but I don’t like having back of the mind timers scrambled like that especially for a class that is so unforgiving for mess ups.

Only build that is “op” is d/p SA troll builds. Reason I use quotation marks is because it’s only op to those who dunno what to do against them but sit there like a duck and wait for them to pop out. Simple solution that wouldn’t harm thief? Max stealth duration, 15 seconds. Stealth should be tactical, not something you cower in until you’re full hp again. But I can’t entirely blame them for doing so, thief defenses are rather weak outside of SA and in overwhelming odds it’s much more difficult for a thief to survive if they are focused and have no stealth access vs having it.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

(edited by NinjaEd.3946)

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Posted by: Alex Behemoth.4952

Alex Behemoth.4952

You are right. 1 more second for reveal makes no difference that is why you should also support adding 4 second reveal for WvW like in PvP.

Ehh people would cry and moan over it like the last time. I don’t like seeing splits between pvp/pve(wvw) even if it is sometimes necessary simply because they have different standards of what it qualifies to be efficient. But I don’t like walking into a different game mode to find my mechanics have changed, it makes mental awareness that much harder to follow (usually I KNOW when reveal is going to wear off for pve/wvw, but often I mess up and “stealth” while still revealed in pvp.) Not suggesting removing the 4 seconds from pvp, but I don’t like having back of the mind timers scrambled like that especially for a class that is so unforgiving for mess ups.

Only build that is “op” is d/p SA troll builds. Reason I use quotation marks is because it’s only op to those who dunno what to do against them but sit there like a duck and wait for them to pop out. Simple solution that wouldn’t harm thief? Max stealth duration, 15 seconds. Stealth should be tactical, not something you cower in until you’re full hp again. But I can’t entirely blame them for doing so, thief defenses are rather weak outside of SA and in overwhelming odds it’s much more difficult for a thief to survive if they are focused and have no stealth access vs having it.

WvW is not PvE. Confusion in WvW works like it does in PvP not PvE. The main reason to go to WvW is to fight other players. If you go to WvW to kill NPCs you are better off going to PvE.

Hopefully you agree with that.

I don’t have problems killing thieves most of them are bad. I don’t play thief I play mesmer. But there are somethings that seem unfair but the thief community just complains how thieves are soo underpowered.

The complains are 2. Reveal needs to be 4 seconds. I play mesmer it will also affect me. But its fair as our classes rely on stealth and the enemy needs a chance to kill us on the little time we are off of stealth. (I realize its not optimal but unless stealth is reworked that is the only solution)

Next is the stealth finisher spam. You can simply spam backstab or other skills till they hit. I have evaded many backstabs, blocked them at the exact moment by predicting where they are at and when they backstab. But the worst thing to see is the block sign followed by 10k damage. So I have to block then evade then hope they run out of stealth. What needs to happen in my opinion is backstab and other stealth attacks need a cooldown if you don’t want them to reveal on block, evade etc. You should not just spam till you hit. There should be consequences for missing. Ether make it a f2 attack with a cooldown or make it cost initiative.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

I would argue that there’s a skill difference between those that sPvP (even hot join) and those that WvW, along with a different mentality (which effects their general PvP skills).

Skill difference can be seen for yourself if you frequently do sPvP for a while and then switch to doing WvW.
The mentality changes from “I’m on my own” or “I have some weight to pull” (sPvP) to “I’m in a zerg” or “I don’t need to do much since i’m in a zerg, someone will do it for me” (WvW). It’s not EXACTLY those words (since i know some troll will take it literally) but i would say your mentality between the two modes does changes. With that being said in sPvP you should be “in the zone” while in WvW you might be hopping along carelessly with the zerg.
That’s why we see a lot of complaints from the WvW folks….
People that roam a lot should have better PvPing skills than those that are constantly with the zerg.

And then there’s the different environmental things that effect the general PvPing, for instance in sPvP there’s no critters/mobs you can CnD off of whereas in WvW there are…. But at the same time if the victim has that switch in his brain set to “off”, i dont think it matters what environment he may be in.

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(edited by Zero Day.2594)

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Posted by: Highlie.7641

Highlie.7641

You really don’t like Wvw players do you?

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

I believe, they think the thief is OP, because they can’t or won’t see, that the thief is a very broken class (without love from the devs), who need help and not more nerfs.

Nearly every QQ Thread, who try to tell us thieves are OP, relates to Stealth + SA.
I have never seen a OP thread about Acrobatic, Steal or one of the many other traitlines and skills in this forum.
Or that the dmg is too high, if a thief fight without 30 Points in CS.

The different in the survivability between Stealth and Non-Stealth builds is enormous, exactly like the dmg between a build with 30 points in CS (+ 25 in another) and a build with not more than 20 points in any traitlines.

Underwater have thieves no (good) access to condition remove or stealth and the traps and venoms weaker, than a cold.

This are just a few examples, it gives a considerable amount more.

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

(edited by Black Teagan.9215)

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Posted by: Tao.5096

Tao.5096

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

Did I ever tell you, the definition, of Insanity?

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

I believe, they think the thief is OP, because they can’t or won’t see, that the thief is a very broken class (without love from the devs), who need help and not more nerfs.

Nearly every QQ Thread, who try to tell us thieves are OP, relates to Stealth + SA.
I have never seen a OP thread about Acrobatic, Steal or one of the many other traitlines and skills in this forum.
Or that the dmg is too high, if a thief fight without 30 Points in CS.

The different in the survivability between Stealth and Non-Stealth builds is enormous, exactly like the dmg different between a build with 30 points in CS (+ 25 in another) and a build with not more than 20 points in any traitlines.

Underwater have thieves no (good) access to condition remove or stealth and the traps and venoms weaker, than a cold.

This are just a few examples, it gives a considerable amount more.

You should spend more time in the profession balance forum. Lately, even stolen skills like WA and consume ecto get called OP, especially when we can trait to get them on a 21 second CD. Check out the nerfs wish list. There are links to these ridiculous threads.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

You really don’t like Wvw players do you?

I neither dislike or like them. That’s just my opinion (based on experience in doing WvW and sPvP, along with reading theses forums), that compliments the complaints and their sources.

See if you know where the complaints are coming from, then maybe it will help with a bigger issue.

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(edited by Zero Day.2594)

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

You should spend more time in the profession balance forum. Lately, even stolen skills like WA and consume ecto get called OP, especially when we can trait to get them on a 21 second CD. Check out the nerfs wish list. There are links to these ridiculous threads.

I talk about the base mechanics and not about stolen items, who need a specific enemy.

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

You should spend more time in the profession balance forum. Lately, even stolen skills like WA and consume ecto get called OP, especially when we can trait to get them on a 21 second CD. Check out the nerfs wish list. There are links to these ridiculous threads.

I talk about the base mechanics and not about stolen items, who need a specific enemy.

Yeah you should look through the wish list, especially posts that are “Originally by” someone or link to a thread…. Someone complained about that ability we steal from mesmers that gives us all the boons.

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Posted by: McFribble.2349

McFribble.2349

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

The biggest culprit is the asinine amount of healing Thieves get while in stealth. This wouldn’t be too much a problem if they didn’t also have an abundant access to blinds as well. There have been many times I dropped a thief (and have been dropped) to 10% health just to regen most of it back in little time, and continue fighting while his opponent is still heavily hurt.

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

Yea maybe with stealth, but try to play without stealth and you wont trust your eyes, how fast you getting down, especially in this Condition/CC Meta, or if everybody attacks you.

Yeah you should look through the wish list, especially posts that are “Originally by” someone or link to a thread…. Someone complained about that ability we steal from mesmers that gives us all the boons.

I know, to have one time all boons for 5 secs is OP at a class with 0 deff and only 10k base hp, but fine on the guard with Save Yourselves!. Nevertheless guards have auto heal, many blocks and much more synergy, incl. Contemplation of Purity. -.-

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

(edited by Black Teagan.9215)

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Posted by: Karolis.4261

Karolis.4261

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

The biggest culprit is the asinine amount of healing Thieves get while in stealth. This wouldn’t be too much a problem if they didn’t also have an abundant access to blinds as well. There have been many times I dropped a thief (and have been dropped) to 10% health just to regen most of it back in little time, and continue fighting while his opponent is still heavily hurt.

You know that warriors heal much more while out of stealth with 0 healing power, right?

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

I believe, they think the thief is OP, because they can’t or won’t see, that the thief is a very broken class (without love from the devs), who need help and not more nerfs.

Nearly every QQ Thread, who try to tell us thieves are OP, relates to Stealth + SA.
I have never seen a OP thread about Acrobatic, Steal or one of the many other traitlines and skills in this forum.
Or that the dmg is too high, if a thief fight without 30 Points in CS.

The different in the survivability between Stealth and Non-Stealth builds is enormous, exactly like the dmg between a build with 30 points in CS (+ 25 in another) and a build with not more than 20 points in any traitlines.

Underwater have thieves no (good) access to condition remove or stealth and the traps and venoms weaker, than a cold.

This are just a few examples, it gives a considerable amount more.

If you’re not surviving long out of stealth, you’re not doing it right. Get apothecary gear, put on SB and D/D, go 0/0/30/20/20, use only Signet of Malice, Shadow Refuge, Caltrops (this and SB#4 will proc Signet of Malice for each tick the enemy stands in them), and Shadowstep as your heal/utility skills. Watch as you outheal most damage done to you (almost 200 HP a hit you do to them), and can even 1v1 a regen ranger to a stalemate. Thieves have insane survival outside of stealth if specced for it, and everybody saying they do not are not doing it right.

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Posted by: Lucky Shot.7650

Lucky Shot.7650

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

You’re not playing warrior right.

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Posted by: Highlie.7641

Highlie.7641

cut

That’s a good point. guess i was miss interpenetrating your words.

On another note healing is probably part of the problem Mcfribble. but it’s to late to change, say they linked Shadow rejuvenation, regen or healing to the revealed buff we wouldn’t hear so many complaints. but they would have to buff to compensate

They would have to double the regen rates, or perhaps how the thieves scales healing Rework cleanses probably damage, ect. That’s a lot of work. and while this Might work in Wvw. in Spvp the maps are clustered, Aoe is prevalent. would this even work there?

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

cut

That’s a good point. guess i was miss interpenetrating your words.

On another note healing is probably part of the problem Mcfribble. but it’s to late to change, say they linked Shadow rejuvenation, regen or healing to the revealed buff we wouldn’t hear so many complaints. but they would have to buff to compensate

They would have to double the regen rates, or perhaps how the thieves scales healing Rework cleanses probably damage, ect. That’s a lot of work. and while this Might work in Wvw. in Spvp the maps are clustered, Aoe is prevalent. would this even work there?

There’s already a discussion on Thief’s Self Heals….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-Self-Heals/

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Posted by: CobOfCorn.6352

CobOfCorn.6352

Since release, I have only played thief as a main, and have roughly 3k hours on it. After leveling from 1-40 in pvp from pure thief gameplay, I’ve realized that thieves have SO many counters. Sure I can get 10-12k backstabs running 25/30/0/0/15, but if someone puts more condis than shadowstep/signet of agility/heal can wipe, then I have to sit through the full duration of the condition. Hell, the warrior offhand sword 4 can get me to half if I cant wipe it. And if I run 30 in SA, yes I can pick up healing on stealth along with a free condi clear, but I lose a sizeable chunk of dps. In my experience as thief, the only build I believe is truly OP would be the 10/0/30/0/30 P/D build with full dire gear. The barrage from stealthed pistol 1 isnt too affected by blinds, and the tankiness from the gear is amazing. Condi clears on every cloak and dagger, and 21s steal that gives half you half of the boons in the game and a 1k heal. Overall though, I believe anyone who preaches “nerf thief” or “thief OP” has either never seriously played thief or is too lazy to find a counter.

Ably

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Posted by: McFribble.2349

McFribble.2349

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

The biggest culprit is the asinine amount of healing Thieves get while in stealth. This wouldn’t be too much a problem if they didn’t also have an abundant access to blinds as well. There have been many times I dropped a thief (and have been dropped) to 10% health just to regen most of it back in little time, and continue fighting while his opponent is still heavily hurt.

You know that warriors heal much more while out of stealth with 0 healing power, right?

You know Warriors have no defenses outside of their healing and armor, right? Avoiding damage in this game is FAR more effective than passive damage mitigation. Shadow’s Rejuvination in conjunction with Hide in Shadow & Blinds will always mitigate damage better than HS and armor ever could. I don’t thieves realize just how strong disableing your opponents target from you really is, especially when you never lose target in the process (and thats not even taking into the fact you are complete invisible).

I’m not saying Thieves don’t need stealth to survive. I am saying their ability to remedy any and all mistakes through it is too kitten much. Reduce healing in stealth, and Thieves will now have to be punished for getting hit in the first place (as it should be).

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Posted by: Lucky Shot.7650

Lucky Shot.7650

You know Warriors have no defenses outside of their healing and armor, right? Avoiding damage in this game is FAR more effective than passive damage mitigation. Shadow’s Rejuvination in conjunction with Hide in Shadow & Blinds will always mitigate damage better than HS and armor ever could. I don’t thieves realize just how strong disableing your opponents target from you really is, especially when you never lose target in the process (and thats not even taking into the fact you are complete invisible).

I’m not saying Thieves don’t need stealth to survive. I am saying their ability to remedy any and all mistakes through it is too kitten much. Reduce healing in stealth, and Thieves will now have to be punished for getting hit in the first place (as it should be).

As you said disabling your opponents counts as a defensive maneuver, so I’m pretty sure that you’ll agree that stunning, knocking down and knocking back your opponents counts as defensive mechanisms, especially when said ccs hit the whole enemy party and cooldowns are so low.

Warrior also get massive hp, good regeneration from HS and Adrenal Health, 10 seconds of condition immunity with berserker stance, -10% damage from Dolyak Signet, stability from Dolyak Signet and Balanced Stance both working also as stun break, almost permanent weakness from Fierce Blow, small blind and immobilize from longbow. Also they get to cleanse 3 conditions every 7 seconds. These are the defenses that warrior has in the build I’m using, so I’d say that they definitely have more defenses outside their healing and armor. Keep in mind they get all of this while doing damage while thief has to sit in stealth if he wants to regenerate and cleanse and even then warrior simply gets more.

Then they can also get additional cleanses through warhorn, Shrug it off, Shake it off and Signet of Stamina, additional disables with Physical skills and Fear Me, invulnerability with Endure Pain and Defy Pain and additional stability and stun break from Last Stand, disabling conditions reduction from Dogged March and additional regeneration…

On warrior you can hold your ground on a point against 2 opponents and 3 opponents for some time, this is something on thief you can’t do. First, thief’s blind don’t work all that well against ranged and aoes. Second, stealth don’t hold a point making the whole battle pointless and letting me die anyway because of aoes and cleave weapons.

(edited by Lucky Shot.7650)

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Posted by: goldenwing.9654

goldenwing.9654

The reason thief gets called “OP” is they’re NOT fun to play against.
There’s a reason Thief is the most hated profession in WvWvW/sPvP by a long shot, I’ve even seen people /dancing on thief corpses ect.

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

The reason thief gets called “OP” is they’re NOT fun to play against.
There’s a reason Thief is the most hated profession in WvWvW/sPvP by a long shot, I’ve even seen people /dancing on thief corpses ect.

That’s funny because as a former thief main I know one thief build that can take melt other thieves like it’s nothing. Something I like to call d/d conditions and the best part about it is…


You don’t need stealth to use it effectively. None at all.

Maybe if players followed suit they could learn how thieves work and perhaps have a much easier time playing? Cuz I havn’t been beaten by another thief yet.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

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Posted by: Tao.5096

Tao.5096

If these people who claim thief to be OP ever played a thief, they would realize that trying to enter the fight in sPvP while capping a point that has a 2v2 or 3v3 going on can be deadly. We have stealth and evades so we can get away from dying so easily!!! If we did not have these skills we would surely be KO’d in seconds from any class that has some sort of zerker cc or conditions even! Most of our condition removal is in stealth!

I have a tendency to tell each Warrior which says that Thief is OP to reroll something else, because he’s beyond saving.

I have an 80 Thief, an 80 Warrior, and close to getting my Elementalist to 80.

Thief is BY FAR the easiest class of these three to play in PvP. The QQ is sound. I suggest YOU try playing a class that doesn’t have two reliable escapes on hand at nearly all times, and then tell me thieves aren’t an uphill fight from the get go.

The biggest culprit is the asinine amount of healing Thieves get while in stealth. This wouldn’t be too much a problem if they didn’t also have an abundant access to blinds as well. There have been many times I dropped a thief (and have been dropped) to 10% health just to regen most of it back in little time, and continue fighting while his opponent is still heavily hurt.

really?
Tell me how good healing and stealth is vs warrior who knock you down for almost 10 seconds?
In the mean time he does stack various debuffs on you and pop boons on himself.

Come on, I want a clear solution vs such situation which isn’t rare, it is quite frequent.

Did I ever tell you, the definition, of Insanity?

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Posted by: Supreme.4051

Supreme.4051

The reason thief gets called “OP” is they’re NOT fun to play against.
There’s a reason Thief is the most hated profession in WvWvW/sPvP by a long shot, I’ve even seen people /dancing on thief corpses ect.

That’s funny because as a former thief main I know one thief build that can take melt other thieves like it’s nothing. Something I like to call d/d conditions and the best part about it is…


You don’t need stealth to use it effectively. None at all.

Maybe if players followed suit they could learn how thieves work and perhaps have a much easier time playing? Cuz I havn’t been beaten by another thief yet.

come at me bro

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Posted by: Renny.6571

Renny.6571

Tell me how good healing and stealth is vs warrior who knock you down for almost 10 seconds?
In the mean time he does stack various debuffs on you and pop boons on himself.

Come on, I want a clear solution vs such situation which isn’t rare, it is quite frequent.

Shortbow 3, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadowstep, Black Powder, dodge rolls.

You’ll only ever get “knocked down for 10 seconds” if you’re standing still because your dog just chewed through your keyboard cable and someone punched a hole in your monitor so you can’t actually see what’s going on ingame.

elite specs ruined pvp.

(edited by Renny.6571)

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Posted by: McFribble.2349

McFribble.2349

You know Warriors have no defenses outside of their healing and armor, right? Avoiding damage in this game is FAR more effective than passive damage mitigation. Shadow’s Rejuvination in conjunction with Hide in Shadow & Blinds will always mitigate damage better than HS and armor ever could. I don’t thieves realize just how strong disableing your opponents target from you really is, especially when you never lose target in the process (and thats not even taking into the fact you are complete invisible).

I’m not saying Thieves don’t need stealth to survive. I am saying their ability to remedy any and all mistakes through it is too kitten much. Reduce healing in stealth, and Thieves will now have to be punished for getting hit in the first place (as it should be).

As you said disabling your opponents counts as a defensive maneuver, so I’m pretty sure that you’ll agree that stunning, knocking down and knocking back your opponents counts as defensive mechanisms, especially when said ccs hit the whole enemy party and cooldowns are so low.

Warrior also get massive hp, good regeneration from HS and Adrenal Health, 10 seconds of condition immunity with berserker stance, -10% damage from Dolyak Signet, stability from Dolyak Signet and Balanced Stance both working also as stun break, almost permanent weakness from Fierce Blow, small blind and immobilize from longbow. Also they get to cleanse 3 conditions every 7 seconds. These are the defenses that warrior has in the build I’m using, so I’d say that they definitely have more defenses outside their healing and armor. Keep in mind they get all of this while doing damage while thief has to sit in stealth if he wants to regenerate and cleanse and even then warrior simply gets more.

Then they can also get additional cleanses through warhorn, Shrug it off, Shake it off and Signet of Stamina, additional disables with Physical skills and Fear Me, invulnerability with Endure Pain and Defy Pain and additional stability and stun break from Last Stand, disabling conditions reduction from Dogged March and additional regeneration…

On warrior you can hold your ground on a point against 2 opponents and 3 opponents for some time, this is something on thief you can’t do. First, thief’s blind don’t work all that well against ranged and aoes. Second, stealth don’t hold a point making the whole battle pointless and letting me die anyway because of aoes and cleave weapons.

I think the part you are forgetting is that Ham/Bow is a single broken build for the Warrior and Healing Signet is already confirmed to reducing healing by 8%. God forbid someone uses something else, like GS, Axe, Sword, or Mace, they really don’t benefit from much of what you posted, because they NEED full adrenaline to actually dish out damage , whereas any Thief build can benefit from going heavy into Shadow Arts. Honestly, the only thief build that requires a lick of skill is Sword/X. Dagger/X or Pistol/X is stupidly easy to win with. If only Shortbow was viable, though.

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Posted by: Renny.6571

Renny.6571

1. Honestly, the only thief build that requires a lick of skill is Sword/X.
2. Dagger/X or Pistol/X is stupidly easy to win with.
3. If only Shortbow was viable, though.

1. Sword/Pistol disagrees with this statement.
2. Pistol/Pistol will not harm a naked bearbow ranger.
3. I’m not sure if this was sarcasm, but Shortbow is extremely viable.

elite specs ruined pvp.

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Posted by: Lucky Shot.7650

Lucky Shot.7650

I think the part you are forgetting is that Ham/Bow is a single broken build for the Warrior and Healing Signet is already confirmed to reducing healing by 8%. God forbid someone uses something else, like GS, Axe, Sword, or Mace, they really don’t benefit from much of what you posted, because they NEED full adrenaline to actually dish out damage , whereas any Thief build can benefit from going heavy into Shadow Arts. Honestly, the only thief build that requires a lick of skill is Sword/X. Dagger/X or Pistol/X is stupidly easy to win with. If only Shortbow was viable, though.

And I think that you’re forgetting that thief will lose a lot of damage by going shadow arts to get cleanse and regeneration. To make an example, the instagib 25/30/0/0/15 signets runs no kind of defense whatsoever. Both have to lose something in order to get something else. Besides, SA is not that popular in pvp. What’s the point of fighting on a point if the opponent will cap it anyway?

I don’t really see a point here. I think what you’re trying to say is that you want to use any random weaponset and build and have many defensive mechanisms anyway. Also you mentioned GS and Sword, that have dashes to help you disengage to answer you earlier complaint that warrior has no disengage, and Mace has weakness, a block, a stun and a knockdown.

The fact that that build is powerful doesn’t mean warrior can’t do it so it’s no excuse. You said warrior has only HS and armor as defenses, that was clearly not the case.

(edited by Lucky Shot.7650)

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Posted by: Tao.5096

Tao.5096

Tell me how good healing and stealth is vs warrior who knock you down for almost 10 seconds?
In the mean time he does stack various debuffs on you and pop boons on himself.

Come on, I want a clear solution vs such situation which isn’t rare, it is quite frequent.

Shortbow 3, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadowstep, Black Powder, dodge rolls.

You’ll only ever get “knocked down for 10 seconds” if you’re standing still because your dog just chewed through your keyboard cable and someone punched a hole in your monitor so you can’t actually see what’s going on ingame.

what makes you think everyone run the same build?
It’s not like we can swap certain utility setups with flick of a finger.
And on the other hand for warrior is to switch weapons i.e. 1sec.

and if he manages to knock you down once, he can lock you down.

Did I ever tell you, the definition, of Insanity?

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Posted by: urdriel.8496

urdriel.8496

what is really OP is no CD skills, and a initiative mechanic that let thieves spam skills.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

I believe, they think the thief is OP, because they can’t or won’t see, that the thief is a very broken class (without love from the devs), who need help and not more nerfs.

Nearly every QQ Thread, who try to tell us thieves are OP, relates to Stealth + SA.
I have never seen a OP thread about Acrobatic, Steal or one of the many other traitlines and skills in this forum.
Or that the dmg is too high, if a thief fight without 30 Points in CS.

The different in the survivability between Stealth and Non-Stealth builds is enormous, exactly like the dmg between a build with 30 points in CS (+ 25 in another) and a build with not more than 20 points in any traitlines.

Underwater have thieves no (good) access to condition remove or stealth and the traps and venoms weaker, than a cold.

This are just a few examples, it gives a considerable amount more.

If you’re not surviving long out of stealth, you’re not doing it right. Get apothecary gear, put on SB and D/D, go 0/0/30/20/20, use only Signet of Malice, Shadow Refuge, Caltrops (this and SB#4 will proc Signet of Malice for each tick the enemy stands in them), and Shadowstep as your heal/utility skills. Watch as you outheal most damage done to you (almost 200 HP a hit you do to them), and can even 1v1 a regen ranger to a stalemate. Thieves have insane survival outside of stealth if specced for it, and everybody saying they do not are not doing it right.

As someone who runs stealthless, I think you missed the point. It’s not any less survivable in a 1v1 situation, and it may even perhaps be more survivable running no-stealth in said situation. It’s when you introduce multiple enemies into the fray that things get hairy, and without the crutch of stealth you’ve got no secondary survival mechanic to rely on to save you. You’re essentially a mobility warrior, and must reset fights frequently after each kill (unless they’re bad) in order to win a 1vX against equally skilled players. Stealth builds, especially those running Shadow’s Rejuvenation, have a much better survival rate in outnumbered situations due to their ability to confuse the enemy on your position.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

what is really OP is no CD skills, and a initiative mechanic that let thieves spam skills.

That’s by design. The thief skills are balanced around being spammable, but good players will actively make decisions to use certain skills at the right time, despite what you QQ. Try again.

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

Thief damage coeficients are less than others, and our condi/stun durations are also lower than others for that reason. Spamming doesn’t mean stronger, and if you spam a skill over and over, you’d think the enemy would know what skill they’re gana use next and act accordingly.

PW spam= terrible
HS spam= even more terrible
Death blossom spam = …. uninstall please
Body shot spam= ok… no damage and you are initiative deprived, congrats?
Shadow shot spam= expensive, long aftercast and not worth spamming
Shadow strike spam= non-existent unless against a wall, even then not threatening.
Unload spam= terrible.

I can go on…

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

(edited by NinjaEd.3946)

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Posted by: urdriel.8496

urdriel.8496

what is really OP is no CD skills, and a initiative mechanic that let thieves spam skills.

The thief skills are balanced around being spammable

That is the problem xDDD they can spam bad balanced/designed burst skills due to the initiative system.

PD:Sry if you are a spammer thief but , to say that something is unbalanced != QQ, you dont need to spam burst skills to win, if another class use a skill and miss, he have cd on the skill, if a thief miss a skill he can use same skill one more time (if have init ofc).

(edited by urdriel.8496)

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

what is really OP is no CD skills, and a initiative mechanic that let thieves spam skills.

The thief skills are balanced around being spammable

That is the problem xDDD they can spam bad balanced/designed burst skills due to the initiative system.

PD:Sry if you are a spammer thief but , to say that something is unbalanced != QQ, you dont need to spam burst skills to win, if another class use a skill and miss, he have cd on the skill, if a thief miss a skill he can use same skill one more time (if have init ofc).

So if they have initiative, its OK to spam the skill? I don’t get why people are upset about spamming skills in the first place. Constant Q.Q from sb #3 spam and it does nothing but avoid certain death and even then, you’re initiative deprived meaning NO weapon skills can be used till it recharges. I think our weak heals, lack of stability, and being the lowest health pool all together more than makes up for our “spamming” ability.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: urdriel.8496

urdriel.8496

what is really OP is no CD skills, and a initiative mechanic that let thieves spam skills.

The thief skills are balanced around being spammable

That is the problem xDDD they can spam bad balanced/designed burst skills due to the initiative system.

PD:Sry if you are a spammer thief but , to say that something is unbalanced != QQ, you dont need to spam burst skills to win, if another class use a skill and miss, he have cd on the skill, if a thief miss a skill he can use same skill one more time (if have init ofc).

So if they have initiative, its OK to spam the skill? I don’t get why people are upset about spamming skills in the first place. Constant Q.Q from sb #3 spam and it does nothing but avoid certain death and even then, you’re initiative deprived meaning NO weapon skills can be used till it recharges. I think our weak heals, lack of stability, and being the lowest health pool all together more than makes up for our “spamming” ability.

No, i said that the “possibility” to spam skills is a design flaw of game mechanic.

This is the first game where a mechanic doesnt have a counter, and one class is able to spam it, and this, is clearly a poor designed mechanic, GW1 assasin mechanic (combos) is BETTER than a spammable skill mechanic, and GW1 assasin was good and you had a hell of fun with him.