Guild Wars 2

CMF.5461:

So if I understood it right from your previous example.

50% crit chance with a 200% crit damage total, would end up being

(frequency of crits) * (difference in damage) = (average increase of damage)
(.5) * (2) = 1

So 200% crit damage with 50% crit chance would provide 100% extra damage, and not 200% due to half the hits being crits and half not.

This could then be shown with the “static” damage multipliers to give an overall estimate of increase in damage.

I don’t think we should ignore numbers because they are too big, and difficult for the observer to understand, but simply explain them more and show “how” it works and not just end result.

It isn’t a matter of what you or I “think,” though, there are numerous sources available that discuss and describe how to display numbers in a coherent and understandable way. If you are going to compare x, y, z trait setups (with or without gear) I would recommend you separate the three figures, using my character sheet as an example, as such:

56.8% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 51% CritChance

This is excluding Scholar runes/Force sigils and excluding the base 150% CritDamage. We can assume the base CritDamage is always 150%. If we had another build, using the same gear, we’d get (10/30/0/30/0):

33.1% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 53% CritChance

OR, if using a Sword

39.7% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 68% CritChance

Anyway, this is not a perfect method either, as gear becomes a factor, ideally we would want to calculate these three values given trait selection alone. From a damage perspective, that would create a situation which makes the least assumptions about gear. As we could then do something like (Equipment Values) + (Trait Values) + (Skill Values), “Values” being defined as "Damage Mod, CritDamage, CritChance), and we could modularize the comparison of builds. However, at this point, I’m just going off on a tangent.

Regarding your math:
1000 – Base Damage
39.7% – Damage Mod
150% – Critical Damage
1397 – Normal Hit
2096 – Critical Hit

1000 – Base Damage
27% – Damage Mod
180% – Critical Damage
1270 – Normal Hit
2286 – Critical Hit

-127 Normal Hit, +190 Crit Damage difference, -12% Damage Mod, +30% Crit Damage

If you hadn’t compared these numbers, it should be pretty apparent that Damage Mods are more valuable than Crit Damage – Some examples below, trying to emulate your style:

1000 – Base Damage
1397 – Modified Base
50% – Critical Chance
150% – Critical Damage
25% – CritMod (0.5*0.5)
74.63% – “Average Damage Mod” ((1+39.7%) * (1+25%)) – You can skip this step if you just multiply (Modified Base * (1+CritMod))
1746 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1270 – Modified Base
27% – Damage Mod
50% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
40% – CritMod (0.5*0.8)
77.8% – Average Damage Mod
1778 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1270 – Modified Base
27% – Damage Mod
66% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
52.8% – CritMod (0.66*0.8)
94% – Average Damage Mod
1940 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1397 – Modified Base
39.7% – Damage Mod
50% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
40% – CritMod (0.5*0.8)
95.6% – Average Damage Mod
1956 – Average Damage Per Swing

@CMF

Truthfully, it is mainly precautionary that I seperate the two. Mathematically (multiplicative property), it would be perfectly acceptable to multiply the two numbers in order to create an effective damage multiplier total, however, unless you can be assured of 100% crit, you need to give Crit damage the same treatment that I have given Unscathed [Uptime% as decimal * (1.5+CritDamage%)] to come up with a relative value given <100% crit chance. Additionally, the product of this sort of number leads to larger numbers; typically, when displaying numbers, you want to make the numbers as easy to understand and small as possible.

It is easier, objectively, to view the total damage modifier and total critical damage as two numbers. Otherwise you would see something like [50% damage modifier * 200% crit modifier = 300% “damage”], which is true given a vacuum, but really skews the expectations of someone trying to reference the information who doesn’t understand the math that is being shown to them.

It is better to convey a 35.9% damage modifier with 70% Critical Damage and 66% Critical Chance when trying to compare between builds. You “can” multiply these numbers together [(1000 * (135.9% * (220% * 66%))) = (1000 * 197.3%) = 1973] to generate a static “damage modifier,” but, applying this outside of a vacuum would be misleading if you did not have a firm understanding of averages/RNG.

It is a statistical assumption that if you have a 33% or 66% uptime, you would gain approximately that amount of value out of the total value. It is an average over a hypothetical infinite time frame, but we make a lot of these assumptions in this discussion anyway.

I agree, Unscathed has a very high “skill cap” to utilize at its full potential. However, it doesn’t take much uptime to make it very competitive.

One other thing to note: Damage Modifiers and Critical damage to not interact the way damage modifiers do. They are effectively calculated after damage is – something like [(Base Damage * (1 + DamageMod% as decimal)) * [1+CritDam% (as a decimal)]. So you cannot just add the crit modifier to the damage modifier.

Unscathed Defender is, without contest, our strongest dps trait, and one of THE strongest DPS traits available to any class. You have to remember that damage modifiers are multiplicative with one another. The more you can utilize the better, each becomes respectively. Let’s take a typical build (10/30/0/5/25), it has (10% * 10% * 5%[sword] * 8% [Assuming 8 boons] * 20%) for its modifiers. This gives a total of 64.6 (likely rounded up/down to nearest whole ). If it were additive the total would only be 53. Using a 10/30/0/30/0 build, the modifiers would only produce a (10+10+5+10) total of 39.7% increase, or 35% if it were additive (again, it IS multiplicative.). The difference is HUGE. Even if you make the assumption of 33%-66% uptime, it is still the most potent bonus we can maintain. This trait is extremely difficult to maintain, but anyone who favors more effortless traits (elusive power) should not misunderstand the potency of Unscathed.

That said, some areas of PvE (boss encounters, trash, world bosses) may not make it easy to maintain. It is situations like this, though, that you would likely switch to Consecration mastery anyway. Keep in mind, though, that even without Unscathed active the 10/30/0/5/25 build maintains a 35.9% modifier (assuming 7 boons, since Aegis is not active), this is only slightly less than the 10/30/0/30/0, which was 39.7%. The difference in potential with Aegis active and inactive is roughly 28.7%. Using this percentage, we can assume a relative value based on uptime by [Uptime as decimal * 0.287] = [0.33 * 0.287] = 0.947 = 9.47% OR [ 0.66 * 0.287 ] = 18.9% for 66%.

So even if you only have aegis up a third of the time, you should see higher effective output than a 10/30/0/30/0 build even IF you don’t maintain all 8 boons 100% of the time.

Edit: corrected some of my… grammar.

Well… I had a much more elaborate write up, but I closed the tab I was typing in while fumbling with my music…

Anyway, the way you present your data is too arbitrary. Unfortunate we don’t have an effective way to evaluate a “relative” damage comparison without using made up rules – base stats can effectively be ignore as you can assume everyone has at least the base stats. Anyway, you are better off compiling comparisons of various trait sets and gear sets (Full Zerk vs. Full Soldier, using Build Q) and comparing their effective power after traits. At least when presented that way, it is just raw data (though, the typical user may not understand “effective power” as a concept) which does not have to be interpreted. Regardless, if you are going to use the method above, be sure to document (and share) how you developed the information. A few things to keep in mind: Buildcraft does not currently do anything to the damage multiplier when using Virtuous Power, you have to manually add 8% in the “manual” tab. Also, if you are going to use builds that have Virtuous power, do be sure to include Unscathed Contender as one of the chosen traits. It is our most powerful damage trait and shouldn’t be overlooked due to its difficult upkeep.

I’ve included a screenshot of something I was throwing together in Excel as an example of what I’m trying to communicate to you, unfortunately, it is somewhat out of context as I don’t want to retype my lost response (admittedly, I’m lazy and spend all day typing anyhow) again. Edit: Made a noob mistake and didn’t label the axis, but the top set of bars are Soldier Gear, bottom set are Berserkering.

The accessibility of the trait in its current iteration is the only “problem.” Unfortunately, this trait alone is essentially making damage-oriented builds viable. The lack of potent, reliable survivability tools in our damage trees requires most/all variations to go for that ‘splash’ into Honor. Currently the meta dictates that outright avoiding the damage>mitigating it. One of several things are likely, but I’d imagine it will end up with a reduced amount of vigor (2s, 6s ICD), or a flat 25% endurance bonus to homogenize the bonus %s across classes like they are giving other traits. Less likely are changes that would more drastically change guardian meta would involve shuffling minor traits throughout various trees around.

That said… if a change is made that drastically reduces our ability to dodge, we will almost definitely suffer greatly. A moderate (50% vigor, compared to near 100% with the current iteration) change in uptime would be uncomfortable, while a steeper trait investment would put it out of reach for some/many damage orient builds (further reducing our damage potential). This would simultaneously be pigeonholing us in to more rigid trait paths as it would feel required. Unfortunately, this trait is one of the only reliable sources of vigor a guardian can use and it would dramatically change how builds are conceived. I think a compromise, if you are really considering this sort of change, would be to give us a flat 50% endurance regen passive while in combat. This would normalize vigor uptime among various trait builds (90-100% currently), while lowering our reliance on vigor. This would be a ‘nerf,’ but if it has to happen…

Anyhow, I feel like our subforum largely goes unanswered. It is extremely hard to communicate in one direction, I’d love to see more responses from the devs (not even to myself, just in general) in regards to Guardian. You guys (anet) are clearly listening, but this “collaboration” effort gave me the impression we’d be able to have more active engagement. I’m not QQing, but we want to participate, not hurry-up-and-wait.

Talyn.3295:

Kelnis.1829:

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

There are several possible variations that would be both considerable and welcome…

1) 5% Sword damage, Swords have a 33% chance to apply Torment on crit, 0.5s ICD. Conceivably, this would give us a tool that punishes movement away from us. It would vary in potency depending on Guardian build. I have several concerns with this idea:
a) It wouldn’t be enough to truly give Guardians a way to push a condition build.
b) It does not fit the theme of a Guardian as what I perceive that ANet perceives us as.
c) It would likely not be punishing enough to dissuade anyone from NOT running away. This would be primarily due to the lack of pressure we could apply if we were utilizing it well (high condition damage, sacrificing raw damage throughput.)

2a) 5% Sword damage, critical attacks have a 25% chance of granting 1s of swiftness, 0.5s ICD. This very specifically does not say “swords,” this would include all damage dealt by the guardian. This would supplement any build that was aiming for damage in such a way that if they are able to get on a target, the swiftness should – if used adequately – should help them stay on target. This would help to address our incombat sluggishness, by providing us with a subtle boost without relying on external sources. This would also be more reasonable with just swords being able to provide the swiftness.

2b) 5% sword damage, Sword attacks have a 10% chance of granting 10s of swiftness, 30s ICD. This is a less interesting option that has a much less drastic change on our balance as a class. With excessive boon duration (something you likely won’t see on a build focused on damage), you could see close to 66% uptime of swiftness from just this, but you’d probably see closer to 10-12 seconds on average. This provide us a moderate boost during our initial burst, but would not address our “field mobility.”

I am trying to stay within the constraints of the question, so hopefully you guys come up with something interesting. Also, Jon, still wanna know about Shattered Aegis!

Note to most other posters: please stay on topic, many of you are responding with general complaints/suggestions, but the question he most recently asked is very specific. Compare it to effects like Zealous Blade and brain storm from there.

Why do people keep suggesting random number generators for CC. I hate that idea. I mean if we look at it across the board sure there are some jobs that have bleed with crits etc like the warriors have. But many of the weapons of the other classes have built in crowd control on the skill, it isn’t something they have to trait for or pray that the RNG gives it at the right time.

Because the devs, thus far, have proven they are not willing to make changes to our baseline skills. Unfortunately, the most realistic thing we can do is resort to “solutions” that are comparable but different than what other traits function like. Again, he asked what additional effect we would like to see on the sword, I answered him in context of his inquiry, nothing more.

I have a ‘working list’ of potentially balanced and viable solutions for the Guardian class, but most people provide wildly exaggerated skill and trait changes that would too violently affect the meta. However, I do not provide such feedback without context from a dev.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

There are several possible variations that would be both considerable and welcome…

1) 5% Sword damage, Swords have a 33% chance to apply Torment on crit, 0.5s ICD. Conceivably, this would give us a tool that punishes movement away from us. It would vary in potency depending on Guardian build. I have several concerns with this idea:
a) It wouldn’t be enough to truly give Guardians a way to push a condition build.
b) It does not fit the theme of a Guardian as what I perceive that ANet perceives us as.
c) It would likely not be punishing enough to dissuade anyone from NOT running away. This would be primarily due to the lack of pressure we could apply if we were utilizing it well (high condition damage, sacrificing raw damage throughput.)

2a) 5% Sword damage, critical attacks have a 25% chance of granting 1s of swiftness, 0.5s ICD. This very specifically does not say “swords,” this would include all damage dealt by the guardian. This would supplement any build that was aiming for damage in such a way that if they are able to get on a target, the swiftness should – if used adequately – should help them stay on target. This would help to address our incombat sluggishness, by providing us with a subtle boost without relying on external sources. This would also be more reasonable with just swords being able to provide the swiftness.

2b) 5% sword damage, Sword attacks have a 10% chance of granting 10s of swiftness, 30s ICD. This is a less interesting option that has a much less drastic change on our balance as a class. With excessive boon duration (something you likely won’t see on a build focused on damage), you could see close to 66% uptime of swiftness from just this, but you’d probably see closer to 10-12 seconds on average. This provide us a moderate boost during our initial burst, but would not address our “field mobility.”

I am trying to stay within the constraints of the question, so hopefully you guys come up with something interesting. Also, Jon, still wanna know about Shattered Aegis!

Note to most other posters: please stay on topic, many of you are responding with general complaints/suggestions, but the question he most recently asked is very specific. Compare it to effects like Zealous Blade and brain storm from there.

Keep it civil fellas. You’ll further dissuade the devs from responding to our concerns. This isn’t the time or the thread for a kitten ing contest, so please, keep your egos in check.

From a PvE perspective, the burst potential of GS will likely always be higher, but the DPS throughput (after factoring in Right-Handed Strength) of Sword/Focus is going to prove more reliable on a fairly short timescale. @Tarsius and I have discuss (some what in passing, and not for quite sometime) the full potential in regards to WW. Even with the outrageous numbers I’ve been able to pull off with it, you will almost always see higher returns from autoattacking with sword. Keep in mind when calculating your hypothetical returns that cast and delay times for skills have a nontrivial effect on output. Every time you delay a skill or otherwise interrupt your autoattack you are paying that opportunity cost.

Speaking of WW… I need to get my guildies to follow me in Orr … I haven’t really tested anything extensively since getting my Sunrise/It being upgraded to Ascended. I was able to get a 31k whirl with solo buffs and a 20/25/0/0/25 build on the risen giant vets in Orr, but I’m pretty confident I could break my 36k record from back then, especially with group buffs.

eleshazar.6902:

I’m going to restate what everyone here is saying. *The Symbol of Swiftness change would completely nerf the guardian in WvW

I am not saying this. The change is welcome, it is one of several they need to take in regards to our limited mobility. The only thing you are concerned with is the initial tick, you are not factoring in additional applications after each tick. Guardians can potentially chain SoS and have it serve as a means of refreshing swiftness more than 1s. In a typical scenario you will see each tick lasting 5-6 seconds, depending on boon duration. The way it is now, if you rely on SoS you have to 1) have no swiftness, 2) wait for swiftness to expire (by either timing an SoS use for just after it expires, or by stopping completely to drop it; depending on the player).

I think the larger issue is the lack of mobility options. You will, most likely, see a positive change in the maintenance of swiftness with this change. Unfortunately, this still leaves Guardians in the dust. Other classes have more reliable options which can be applied readily. Until they give us a snare or reliable way to maintain our target, no amount of swiftness will be adequate.

SilkySmooth.1574:

2650 armor with strength in numbers, 2900 power 47% crit and 905 condi damage which makes burn hit 555, bleed ~90 and poison 150(sigils). and i also have 50% burn duration

(edit) im sad to see shattered aegis go tho, it was a nice 3 sec burn(1900 dps) (+ 1.5 sec because it blocks which will still remain)

As long as the scaling is reasonable, you will likely benefit more from the new Shattered Aegis. The potential for your burn being countered, at least in sPvP/WvW, is pretty high. Whereas direct damage, while affected by mitigation, will provide a more damage-spike like effect. Even with sigils providing (very poorly) additional conditions, Guardian damage is best suited to hard, fast spikes in PvP at the moment. Unfortunately, Offensive-oriented guardians lack the sustain to outlast most other class/build combinations, particularly when factoring in how predictable our best spike is.

I am largely playing devil’s advocate at this point in regards to Shattered Aegis 2.0;

Jon Peters
Jon Peters
Jon Peters

Maybe he’ll Beetlejuice his way over here and follow up with us now .

JonPeters.5630:

Hello Guardians,
<snip>
Supreme Justice and Kindled Zeal
I feel like there is a build here, but TBH I haven’t gotten it to work in our internal testing yet. This is as good a place as any to talk about stat conversion traits.
Currently they do not convert 100% of a stat because certain stat bonuses such as those from signets do not get converted. For that reason we are being conservative but normalizing all of our conversions to the follow #s for now.
Minor: 5%,7%, and 10% respectively for adept, master and grandmaster.
Major: 7%,10%, and 13% respectively for adept, master, and grandmaster.
I’m not sure this will be enough, but I do not want these traits to be overpowered as I feel they are fairly passive. That being said, I think they are good simple traits and with 12 traits per line it is absolutely fine to have some passive simple to understand traits.
Another thing about this build is that you do not have all of the information you need about this power guardian right now, but I can’t reveal more without spoilers. /tease
</snip>
Thanks,

Jon

I am thrilled to hear about something new/different to look forward to, but I am still concerned with the shortsightedness of the Kindled Zeal Trait. The incoming change would have to be rather large to make it attractive enough for such a deep investment in Zeal. I just cannot see the investment being worthwhile given our current options and the opportunity cost of such an expensive trait.

However, you’ve neglected to comment on Zealous Blade. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on that. Also, do consider increasing the bonus damage modifier to 10% to maintain your logic above. If the cost of the damage is conveyed into the heal, consider increasing the coefficient to 4-5%, this amount of scaling should be enough for players to actually consider it instead of it just being an afterthought of the 5% damage. I would rather the increased damage be an afterthought, and the healing potential be the main consideration.

I look forward to the information regarding Shattered Aegis, though, as it may bring more builds into Zeal if it offers a potent enough spike.

Also, if you wanna go ahead and spoil the tease, feel free to PM me, I won’t give it away. Seriously, though, without all the information we can’t give a useful response without all the data. So as soon as you can share, please do.

Reference to my recommendations/feedback.

I’d be curious to see what others feel about my ideas, the dev thread is fairly slow in regards to fellow Guardians giving constructive feedback (far too much focus on the swiftness symbol change!)

Put my feedback on the thread, but i’m glad they’ve acknowledged “damage focused guardians” are a thing in the dev’s eyes.

Note: I’ve been typing this rather slowly, so if someone else has brought up these similar points … sorry ;D!

1) Shattered Aegis: What sort of damage can we expect to see out of this change? Shattered Aegis is already unattractive in its current iteration (at least compared to Fiery Wrath). The burn, at least, provided potential synergy with other traits, though. If this provides a nice, “reliable” spike of damage 500~700 base, with some moderate scaling it may find some use, otherwise this will likely go unused outside of niche builds. However, almost all damage oriented builds will benefit more from Fiery Wrath than a lackluster Aegis-Spike.

2) Zealous Blade: I’ve been a strong advocate of this skill acquiring a healing coefficient, however, this is still an unattractive trait. A 0.02 modifier would require 1250 Healing power to match the base healing (25 base, 25 via scaling, 50 total). The throughput of this ability, understandably, needs to be kept in check. However, the scaling leaves something to be desired. A 3% modifier would be a little better, a 4% modifier would be closer to ideal – a flat 5% coefficient may be too far. However, it would make deep-Zeal a potential choice rather than a likely mistake. However, regardless of healing coefficient, bringing up the GS damage by 5% would make me consider going this far into zeal, especially with a coefficient.

3) Kindled Zeal is a waste of a Grandmaster Trait. The scaling increase would not make this trait more attractive than it is now, as it is not attractive whatsoever. If the Guardian had the tools needed to apply different types of conditions, I could see this being used, but in its current iteration, it is lackluster and disappointing. I would propose something that offers an interesting choice rather than an uninspired % modifier.

3-2) The Zeal traits are largely unattractive. Currently, there are very few (if any) builds in the high level meta utilizing Zeal. The fear of increased Guardian damage with our innately high survival is limiting the choices you as developers can give yourself. One thing I recommend you consider is something “different” I’d be interested in seeing your feedback on:
Zeal 25/Symbolic Power – Reworked – Zealot’s Sacrifice: Increases damage by 15%, incoming damage received is increased by 15%.
This frees up a significant burden of balancing our survival with our damage. This change also has the potential to allow interesting Grandmaster Choices a possibility.

If I were to expand on this, I would allow it to have further reaching changes on our traits such as “Zealot’s Sacrifice” variations of different trait behaviors. (EX: Wirt of Persistance, Symbols Last Longer, Zealot’s Sacrifice: Symbols don’t last as long, but do more damage with each tick”) This is too abstract and unorganized in its current iteration to convey in a balanced manner, but is largely a tangent anyhow.

4) Searing Flames is a niche skill, this change may see some viability brought to it. A potential alternative: “When applying at least 4 seconds of burning, remove all boons from a target. 45 second ICD.” This would allow us an opportunity to “burst” remove boons rather than the “nearly” insignificant iteration current in game. Would still be niche, but the “on demand” removal provided by an activated VoJustice could make this choice worthwhile.

5) Powerful Blades, potent change, if not uninspired. Providing flat increases is always welcome, but they don’t offer much in the way of “interesting.” Something akin to Zealous Blade (but not the same, perhaps “+x% damage, gain 0.5s of Quickness on crit, 1s ICD”… obviously that would likely be over powered, but it could be “interesting.”)

6) Retributive Armor scaling is already fairly nice, an extra 2% will be pretty noticeable. A welcome change. Acceptable for an Adept tier trait.

7) Pure of Heart… Another skill with some niche use. The speed in which Aegis is applied and removed in a typical scenario leaves this trait going unused in most cases. There are more interesting traits available in that tier that are hard to replace. Adding an additional effect to this trait may make it something we have to consider.

8) Supreme Justice – This has always been a trait I “wanted” to use. This change might be enough for me to try to use it in a build.

9) Symbol of Swiftness – This is a wonderful change. Edit: I am assuming each second is one pulse, leaving us with a comparable amount of swiftness if we were to wait in the symbol for at least 3 seconds.

Out of all the weapons in the Guardian Arsenal, the torch is the only one that I find myself leaving in the bank (though, I usually bring it anyway.. cause why not). I can use every weapon in SOME situation, but the torch … it just isn’t attractive compared to the alternatives. Focus covers damage and condition removal more consistently and without sacrificing DPS. Focus #5 can be activated, managed, and detonated without interrupting auto attacks.

Torch has some mild potential, but the cast on #5 is detrimental to DPS while its condition removal isn’t reliable (relatively speaking.) The torch #4 ability can hit hard, but comparing its damage and utility to focus #5 or of focus #4 leaves me discouraged. I would say it would take some increase in either damage, duration (in the case of torch #4’s initial cast), or effect in order for this weapon to be considered in more situations.

Bloodgruve.6038:

GSword may win out if WW would consistently hit though.

You keep saying this, but I’ve never had this inconsistency issue. Once you start casting WW, just move your character towards the center of the enemy’s target circle. This will help maximize the amount of projectile hits that connect.

@Tarsius

I don’t have your math handy, but it seems to be a 1.5k~ damage increase assuming it hits near the top of the range, but it might be more in theory.

@Tarsius / Regarding Foods
I typically run +100 power/10% crit damage, this gives the largest consistent return throughout dungeons/fractals, and doesn’t rely on “on kill” procs. The +200 power on kill/10% crit damage is my go to food while farming as the power is almost always active. I would never use the +200 power at low health food, it is never a good idea (especially with our health pool as zerker guards) to keep health so low; this also conflicts with maintaining Scholar runes’ buff.

I’ve been playing with a 20/25/0/0/25 build just for “How high can I get my whirls?!” since they added/updated legendaries to ascended. I am able to hit 30k+ with just self-buffs (15~ might/12 vuln) on Vet Risen Giants. I have not tested this with 25 might/vuln and crit banner yet, however, I’d wager 45-50k might be feasible given the correct buffs are present. Highest I got prior during tests was a 37.6k, using a 20/30/0/10/10 build, so I know the potential is there.

Now, unfortunately, the 20/25/0/0/25 build lacks a lot of the more valuable self-sustain tools (namely the 5 in honor for Vigor) which leads me to recommend against its use in dungeon content/WvW for all but the most experienced guardians.

I have found myself using a 10/30/0/25/5 build recently, it is a healthy balance of DPS traits and sustain/health buff traits. The 10% damage while endurance is not full can be micromanaged to be close to 100% uptime without a wasting too many dodges. The 20 pt in Honor can be toggled between Empowering Might and 2H CD reduction, depending on the need. Obviously I run sword/focus + greatsword for my builds, swapping scepter/sword depending on the situation. If you do not use the one-handed weapons you can drop 5 points in radiance in to Honor to pick up Pure of Voice for the shout cleanse.

Sadly, there are too many opinions and, without parsable/accurate combatlogs, no verifiable “highest dps” build. However, if you are going for straight modifiers… 20/25/0/0/25 has the most:
Zeal: 10% while burning, 5% GS / 10% Scepter
Radiance: 10% while afflicted with condition
Virtues: 20% while Aegis is active, 1% per active boon

Assuming GS trait is selected in Zeal:
(10% * 5% * 10% * 20% * ( 1%* 8 )) = 64.6568%, or roughly 65% before Scholar/Slaying Potion/Sigils are factored in. I also have not tested to see if Power of the Virtuous is a series of 1% increases or simply a flat 1-8% modifier depending on boon count. The difference is small, but it would have potential increase damage by 0.5% or so. This is, of course, factoring in the multiplicative nature of the damage modifers, and not accounting for how the game truncs/rounds its numbers.

One Note Chord.5031:

this guy

Someone is a bitter fellow, aren’t they? I’m so tired of hearing these quotes out of context. Do you and your sad friends take turns posting new threads feigning disgust? You, sir, are the type of person that is poisoning the water hole, not Colin, not the other Devs. This is nothing but vile, toxic behavior that is very frequently reposted simply with the intent to troll, belittle, and revile whoever you think is at fault on that particular day. This isn’t GW1, the manifesto isn’t a religious document, and game design is an iterative process.

Frankly, I’m largely unhappy with the way they’ve implemented such tedious chores as a means to acquire Ascended weapons, but they are not unreasonably time consuming if you do it at saunter instead of a sprint. I hope they adjust the gating for armor to something like 5-7 days instead of two weeks. Each piece taking two weeks will not be fun.

However, unhappiness aside, I enjoy the option (yes, it is an option) of having Ascended items available. It is a reasonable improvement over exotic, but it is not so drastic that you cannot overcome the modest difference from a combination of player skill and class mechanics.

From what I found out myself…. if you even open the “assign stats” window on an item, it soul-binds the item. I was gonna pass my Snaff’s Gyre off to my thief, but I absentmindedly decided to preview the stat selections…. woops!

Oh god. If the ascended weapons were more than the modest 5% they are now… we’d have like 12 people running around with pitchforks.

Astralporing.1957:

Alastar.2863:

Is the debate on Ascended gear STILL an issue after almost a year?

Ascended gear is not an issue.

This and other threads prove you wrong. You can’t declare something “not an issue” just because it’s not an issue to you.

It is an issue with a small, but very vocal part of the community. I try my best to be tolerant of people’s opinions, but the way those that are “against” ascended items communicate their distaste for them… is some of the most toxic swill I’ve seen in any MMO.

I’ve said this in a different thread, but I’ll restate it here: Your fears regarding a treadmill, regarding the inevitable inclusion of a level cap increase, which require us to do it all again, are completely unfounded. We may get small, tangible ways to improve our character power via gear, but so far these methods have not been game breaking. Nor have they, aside from high level fractals, been a requirement for participating in WvW, PvE, or (obviously) sPvP.

The immaturity of those quoting the manifesto as gospel is appalling. Game development is a constantly evolving, constantly iterative, process. Evidence is there to suggest they wanted Ascended items in the game at launch. If this had been the case we wouldn’t even being having this debate.

That said, I hope they spend more time on horizontal progression with the introduction of new skills and weapon sets for each class. This would be a great deal more entertaining, even if they required the same amount of effort to acquire.

Monster hunter is great.

That was a cinematic. I don’t think the dragon fights should be cinematics.

Many of us have jobs and families, that is a moot (and unnecessary) point you’re trying to use to enforce your opinion.

However, this is a non-issue, all ascended items with this behavior (rings/accessories) have the word “Unique” located in their item text that clarifies the fact that you may only equip one of the item.

I’m sorry if you’ve spent your limited time working towards an item type and, unknowingly, purchased an additional item you cannot use. You can try opening a support ticket, but I doubt they’ll be able to assist you. It is worth trying, though!

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/2844578

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

on the livestream just now the basic damage stats of an ascended greatsword was shown to be 1045-1155, up from 945-100.

Lemme fix that for ya:

Exotic
995-1100
Ascended
1045-1155

Also, I posted those exact stats on the first page of this thread.

Anyhow, http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/2844578

Go watch the preview and see for yourselves.

She indicated, if I recall correctly, that better kits have better chances at the essences. So, while impractical, the best kit would the black lion salvage kits, followed by the mystic/master salvage kits.

Linsey was kind of vague and hesitant about the process, I’m grateful we’ll be able to untransmute the item. However, I’m now concerned that they are not able to get the items out on patch day. Oh well, a little patient goes a long way.

Raine.1394:

Upon inspection we can see that the participation in the process is mandatory, not optional.

Per your own hyperbole, ArenaNet is clearly holding you down, forcing you to progress. How dare they.

Seriously, you are more afraid of the potential that they will add more tiers than you are of ascended items as a concept. Frankly, these fears are unfounded. They have stated (post release, when this debate first started) that they have no intention of adding a new item tier in the foreseeable future.

Worst case scenario, we get sideways progression which is equal, but different than ascended (a la greens in GW1), Doomsday scenario we get Transuniversal Mistzone items, and you guys can be justified in your, currently, unwarranted fears.

The difference, while tangible, isn’t so large that player skill or class mechanics will not be able to overcome the relative value of an item upgrade. The only content currently bottlenecked by gear progression is Fractals, and ya know what? You can do the first 10 levels with zero concern with ascended items/AR. In fact, you can do the 1-19 with zero agony resistance and still be successful.

There is, and will not be, any content you will be unable to see/participate in because of Ascended gear.

Option 1) Play nothing but sPvP.
Option 2) Play the game, use whatever gear you can. Enjoy not needing to be in BiS epic item level 600 purples to enjoy the game’s content. Skill and class mechanics are more important than a 5-7.5% increase in stats.

Posted this in zeecow’s thread, but reposting it here as well. The difference in ascended weapons from exotics should be 5%.

(This is a screenshot I saved from when legendary weapons were accidentally upgraded some time ago.)

The difference between exotic weapons and ascended weapons should be 5%. Attached is a screenshot from when they accidentally updated legendary weapons several months ago.

The likely returns from such an upgrade will be tangible, not excessive to the degree you are predicting. The upgrade to ascended from exotic isn’t as large as that from rare to exotic, at least for weapons.

Looks to me like he bugged his animation and is running around like an idiot.

The damage range on the weapons should increase by 5%~ which is the largest, and most exciting part to look forward to.

I have greatsword covered with a legendary. My other weapons are primarily scepter/sword + focus. It will be one of those three things. Probably scepter first, then sword, then focus. I’ll build up the rest of my arsenal slowly.

DevonCarver.5370:

We are aware of this, but it is a non-trivial fix. We are hoping to make changes to this by the end of the year.

I hope you guys don’t completely negate the weapon stacking benefit. I would prefer to see something like stack decay, perhaps. Each kill without the the sigil present in your equipped loadout (either primary or secondary weapon sets) has a high chance of removing a stack of Bloodlust/Accuracy/Etc. If it is unequipped entirely, the next kill removes all stacks.

At the moment, this is one of the most valuable sigils when used in tandem with a % modifier. However, I think removing the functionality altogether would be less fun than simply making the maintenance of the stacks more complicated.

He is referring to the coefficients for some weapons, the damage range doesn’t matter as much as the coefficient for the weapon skills.

Conversely, normalize all gear to exotic level within WvW.

However, that said, I do not approve of this idea. Ascended items adds a very, very small amount of vertical progression. Without vertical progression of some sort, you will start bleeding players who yearn for tangible rewards. Ascended weapons (and armor) should be the last tier of gear they introduced. While the possibility for new tiers exist, they seem sincere in regards to keeping ascended the end-game item status.

I think a system like this could work, in theory. I would take a slightly different direction, perhaps something like a daily purchase. This would gate the conversion and allow a more generous exchange.

Something like…
30000 Karma = 60 Tokens
This would be approximately 500 Karma per individual token. This, remember, being allowed only once per day as a means to supplement the income from dungeons runs.

Conversely, they could simply increase the Token rewards across the board by 50%? 90 tokens for the first path, 45 for the second, et cetera.

Currently, getting a full set of armor is incredibly tedious. Perhaps increase the token rewards by the same factor as the gold rewards are for harder dungeons. This way easier dungeons don’t see much/any increase, but the more difficult ones see more tangible returns more quickly. I adore the dungeons in this game, but I don’t enjoy running them dozens of times for one set of armor.

@Lord Kuru
Two (2) one-handed weapons have more stats than One (1) two-handed weapon. The difference is often very, very small (Zerker greatsword has 1 power, 1% crit damage less than zerksword+zerkfocus, for example).

@Samhaim
They have already stated that multi-slot sigils isn’t feasible for them technically. The reason I would find my examples justifiable is because by having one weapon instead of two, you are losing the option of using two sigils. Increasing the strength of them would merely be compensation for only being able to have one active sigil. Also, in case it isn’t clear, Bloodlust would give two stacks instead one when equipped in a two-handed weapon. This is the same exact behavior that two one-handed weapons has with two active bloodlust sigils.

Conversely, I’ve mentioned this briefly on reddit, but they could also have sigils/infusions dynamically increase/adjust their values based on the type of weapon (two/one-handed) they are placed in.
Examples:
Sword – Sigil of Force, 5%
Greatsword – Sigil of Force, 10%

Scepter – Sigil of Fire, 5 second icd
Staff – Sigil of Fire, 2.5 second icd

Axe – Sigil of Bloodlust, Gain +10 Power each time you kill a foe. (Max 25 stacks; ends on down.)
Longbow – Sigil of Bloodlust, Gain +20 Power each time you kill a foe. (Max 25 stacks; ends on down.)

Pistol – Mighty Infusion, +5 Power / +5 AR
Rifle – Mighty Infusion, +10 power / +10 AR

Dagger – Gain 50% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat. (Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Shortbow – Gain 75% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat. (Cooldown: 9 seconds)

Obviously, it would need to be balanced fairly, but it seems like it would be a simple way to bypass the restriction on the item slot and simply have certain values change dynamically.

The wolf statue is crafted via Leatherworking, not the Mystic Forge. You will need to purchase the recipe from Miyani by the Mystic Forge in LA, it requires 400 Leatherworking.

It was likely added as a means to make damage less predictable. Most games do this.

Also, if you’re referring to guardians… focus #5 is one of our hardest hitting abilities. If it had a higher weapon damage, well, I wouldn’t complain.

While Sunrise (and Twilight, really) is massively over represented, I absolutely adore the weapon. I saw it posted in a video from Beta before launch and knew then I’d just have to have it. I only recently finished it, but I wouldn’t care if everyone had one, it is my favorite weapon across the entire game.

Unfortunately, this question hasn’t been answered in this thread or any of the others relating to the topic. That concerns me, but like you guys, I hope they’d implement the un-transmute item with this patch if they don’t have a plan otherwise.

I would wonder if they could maybe rectify that problem simply by adding one and two-handed infusions/sigils that can only go in their respective weapon type. Though, I don’t believe they currently distinguish upgrade slots based on weapon type, but it might be a way to fix it.

However, it is disappointing to have 2h weapons inherently less valuable for AR than two one-handed weapons.

Flissy.4093:

Viking Jorun.5413:

We need to know.

Why do you need to know? It’s not like you can impact it in anyway.

It is less about “needing” to know and more about setting an expectation. They will have a mountain of disappointed users if they don’t address our mutual concerns, and with their lack of response, we are all grasping at straws in regards to their intended behavior on patch day.

Also, yes, unfortunately a moderator moved my thread. You also can’t PM the forum moderator to contest their decision. This is largely getting overlooked due not being in the SAB2 subforum.

How will they be treated after the updated? Can we expect them to simply become adaptable? I’m quite concerned!

You may want to skim my post again, the way I was intending to say it was simply juxtaposing the two different building styles for some context in the two very polar gearing strategies. There was no suggestion, or I would have indicated as such, it is simply providing some information for someone who seems very inexperienced with the class.

I am going to briefly cover the different trees and my observations of each tree independent of the others, without including build bias:

Zeal is a very limited tree. Going beyond 20 points is largely going to prove lackluster. Points spent in this tree should definitely be minimized at the moment. However, that said, 10 points in to this tree for Fiery Wrath will provide a very sturdy dps increase (100 power, 10% damage while burning, 10% additional condition duration.)

Radiance, as a tree, is mitigation/damage oriented. Blinds provided by VoJ are a valuable source of damage avoidance. The additional precision provides a stabilizing effect to your damage output as crit chance rises. This compounds exceptionally with Right-Handed Strength and Radiant Power. This tree is one of our most valuable trees overall.

Valor, while not apparently as effective as a tree with a proper damage multiplier, is comparable to a 8~10% (I do realize damage multipliers are multiplicative, this is merely a comparison) modifier when factoring in Retributive armor’s precision bonus and a full 30 points spent in the tree. The value of the crit damage is proportional to crit chance, but is a positive non-zero value even at base crit values. The supportive value of the tree is limited mostly to personal survivability.

Honor is a valuable tree for support and damage as it provides a 10% damage multiplier at 25, and Pure of Voice at 30. I would argue this is the most valuable tree at the moment for personal survival (health buffer from the vit/100% uptime on Vigor) while providing additional damage, and party support.

Virtues is a very solid tree, but it is not definitely not a proper dps tree. Unscathed, especially in your average dungeon/fractal run, will have 33~50% uptime even if you play as near perfect as possible. Not everything is telegraphed or dodgeable and Aegis will get popped at some point. This is compounded with the fact that Aegis’ block is the first to be consumed even if Focus #5/Shelter are active. Power of the Virtues is potent, but over the course of a dungeon you will probably tend towards an average of about a 5% increase. This is not, however, contesting the tree’s supportive nature. It provides some great synergy with its Boon Duration and various boosts to consecrations/virtues.

These are observations from a PvE perspective, of course, as things in the meta behave differently in sPvP/WvW.

Now given my rather long, pointless diatribe….

If you want to dps and are okay with providing support primarily through blinds and condition removal you will likely see the most consistent returns from a 10/30/0/30/0 build using sword or scepter with focus, and whatever off weapon you prefer. The 20 point in honor can be changed to EM/2handed mastery, or something else entirely if aren’t make good use of either of those traits. The 10 points in zeal is modular, you can put those in Virtues if you want the extra boon duration/Consecration Reduction/Unscathed Contender. You can put them in to Valor as well, but you will get more for your investment in Zeal/Virtues.

Quick question, Brutaly, do you know off the top of your head if the 1% bonus from the 25 point trait in virtues behave multiplicatively with one another? I haven’t tested it, but that has the potential to increase its value very slightly.

Edit: I a word, and some grammar!

I think Brazil has a good write up for what you’re trying to accomplish, his post can be found on here.

A quick run down of his build is essentially like this 0/30/0/30/10.

This frees up your armor slots to use offensive runes if you want to, or removes two conditions per shout if you don’t.

One thing you will want to get used to/become acclimated with is the use of Wall of Reflection. It is one of our most invaluable skills in PvE. Hence the selection of “Master of Consecrations” to reduce its CD/Increase the duration of it. If you are otherwise not seeing a lot of use out of it, you can switch it to something else like Unscathed Contender.

One issue with contender is the difficulty in maintaining a significant uptime. The damage bonus is only applied while Aegis is active on your character. It is surprising how easy it is for the buff to get used up, and it has a very high skill cap for use, especially in PvP.

I’d read up on that thread from Brazil, maybe try the traits out and see how you like them. The title of his thread is a bit of exaggeration in regards to being “perfect” but it sounds like a good place for you to start. My builds are much more experimental and less in line with accepted norms, so I wouldn’t have you start with any of my stuff.

Edit: One thing to note, if you’re not used to your guardian yet you really may want to start off with the 0/15/30/20/5 build we spoke about above. It is a very well rounded build for learning the ropes. The DPS oriented builds leave very little room for error and will take some practice to get used to. The low natural health pool on a guardian is unforgiving when it comes to being glass cannon.