Guild Wars 2

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

This is what you want to use.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhSsYfWwWLQ7FLpF14POkFJYJuiHw3GGANAA-TFiHAB7q8j2TAQQ7HUregcV/p3FEA4BAAlSwAAIAzsMDghO0hO0hO0m5MH6MH6MLFAMLrA-w

The tooltip is incorrect, but the visual and damage radius are correct.

That isn’t how the math works. Look at the graph in the first post.

Assuming you have some might stacked up, the burn wouldn’t be completely useless. They are all extremely weak traits at the moment. Hopefully they’ll see some changes.

Even at a 10% stepping, if you have more than 63% crit chance, this trait is worth less than 5% bonus crit.

savacli.8172:

• Maniacal Persistence seems like the go-to GM, but it seems that Rolling Mist will push us over the top for crit chance.

Maniacal Persistence is an absolutely terrible trait for anyone over 25% crit. It is possibly the best choice of the group of GM traits there, but it is still abysmal.

Rygg.6237:

Roy already has buffed the skills, most of them around 30%, which isn’t actually that much of a change since individual coefficients are quite low even with said change.

The revenant skills, after the buffs have some of the highest coefficients in the game. There aren’t a lot of traits supporting damage, but the coefficients are actually very high.

Damage reduction does not scale linearly with toughness, but going from 0-1% damage reduction reduces incoming damage by 1%. Going from 98-99% damage reduction reduces incoming damage by 50%.

Toughness and Vitality both scale linearly with time to live without factoring in healing. As you add healing into the equation, the relative value of toughness goes up.

The damage buff they posted comes out to about 17% more AA damage.

Staff 2 will probably still be situational, but is a small damage increase now.

Power, in almost all scenarios, will add the most damage to your attacks. Rage will work pretty well for revenant because it will allow you to keep your 7% damage buff up more often.

If you already have fury uptime, the Scholar and Strength and Pack runes will do more for you.

For solo situations, the Rune of Rage will be a good choice, but for maximum DPS in groups, Scholar will still be the way to go.

ShadowLordX.5148:

I suspect the ideal setup in dungeons will be Mace/Axe for blasting might and gap closing and then switch to S/S once a fight starts and camp the sword auto for the rest of the fight, rotating Shiro/Mallyx upkeep skills.

With the current mechanics, this is the ideal rotation.

Kidel.2057:

150 ferocity is a flat 10% more damage if you have 100% crit rate. Even if axe was useful, and it isn’t, I would still take double swords for that boost.

150 Ferocity isn’t 10% more damage at any value of crit unless you somehow managed to get negative 750 ferocity.

Adding 10% more crit dmage even at 0 ferocity would take you from 150% up to 160%, which is a (160/150 -1) 6.67% increase. So at best you’d be adding 6.67%, and at worst, quite a bit less than that.

Assuming you swap legends every 10 seconds and you run yourself empty before every swap, you’ll have an energy balance of 100 energy every 10 seconds (50 from the swap and 5 energy per second from regen). Given that many of the skills on the weapons function as utilities and don’t have a purpose in a damage rotation, they work with the 6 utilities and 2 elites on your bar to determine what you can do with your energy pool.

100 energy every 10 seconds seems like you’ll get plenty of casts out of the rest of your kit. You can’t just mindlessly mash the buttons as soon as they are off cooldown, but you get to use the skills often enough.

Maybe my perspective is queued from years spent playing monk in GW1 GvGs where external sources were actively trying to disrupt my energy management, but I didn’t feel like handling the energy was particularly challenging.

I would agree however that some of the skills have pretty weak effects given the energy costs that they have, but I don’t see that as a problem with the resources so much as a problem with the skills (Some of which have been fixed already).

Kidel.2057:

So the burst dps while using Impossible Odds or with a source of quickness is actually higher, right?

Yes. Your burst with IO up would be higher. You’d be pulling about 15.6k while IO was active.

The 12.5k DPS number is what you can do using Impossible Odds as much as possible (roughly 40% of the time)

Mallyx will obviously increase that number, but it is hard to say how much.

The same assumptions are used for all of those other class numbers. The contribution to the group from each build isn’t equal, but when you’re comparing theoretical max DPS output, you usually assume that whatever group you are in has a full stack of might and Vuln and fury up.

Elementalist and PS Warrior are both phenomenal might stackers, and they also provide a bunch of aoe fury if needed. That is why those are some of the most popular classes in PvE groups.

I did not factor in the DPS boosts from the Revenant into any of those numbers directly. I just used it as a baseline for placing the Revenant DPS into the pecking order somewhere. Generally the more group support a spec provides, the less damage they tend to do. Elementalist and Engineer are outliers at the moment as they provide damage buffs while still doing a ton of damage.

All of those numbers referenced above were assuming a full stack of 25 Vulnerability, 25 might, 100% fury uptime, 45% of time under 50% health, and all the relevant traits factored in. The crit chance and crit damage is calculated into the total as well. They also include food buffs, sigil effects etc.

I’d say given the fact that they are applying a decent bit of Vulnerability and providing 150 ferocity to the group, the overall number should be somewhere around 14-14.5k. You might get close to that depending on how you value the Mallyx DPS contribution, but I didn’t have time to really play with how sustainable the Mallyx ult is during the last beta.

edit: Forums are acting a bit strange. I keep posting before the post that I’m replying to.

Tooltips are the actual cast time basically, but the animation has an aftercast effect that isn’t included in the tooltip. I spent most of the beta weekend recording and timing the available skills and calculating damage numbers so I could speak intelligently on the subject for discussions like this.

Kidel.2057:

Just curious, how are those numbers on a dps guardian, including quickness shout and save yourself?
Or if you don’t have guardian, at least something else to do a comparison.

I’m not sure off hand what a GS Guardian is capable of, but a Hammer/Mace Guardian is somewhere around 13.5k DPS

A Phalanx Strength GS warrior who hands out party might like candy and applies Empower Allies to the group will do about13k DPS currently.

Staff Elementalist and Grenade/Rifle Engy are both in the neighborhood of 17.5k DPS when fully buffed.

skowcia.8257:

2k+600? What the F. I dont think it be that high. Was curious as my guard gs has 103x, 103x, 156x on auto and people already explode in wvw.

Almost every other class has much higher damage modifiers from traits than the Revenant does currently. The base damage on Revenant sword is quite high, but there really isn’t a ton of damage support through the traits in the current implementation.

Conditional damage increases (like Fiery Wrath or Power of the Virtuous) don’t show up in the tooltip numbers, but you’ll apply them when you actually do the damage. Additionally, the guardian also applies burning stacks which add to the damage he does.

Silverkey.2078:

Sorry for the missing info on AA, I actually computed them but forgot to write them. I didn’t realize the 2nd hit did hit twice though. Ok, so AA is about 10k DPS, and now we can use full quickness since there is nothing else to do so final DPS about 12.5 k ???

Including Rampant Vex Procs and Focused Siphoning Procs but without any Impossible Odds uptime or any Mallyx useage I’m coming up with 10.4k DPS. If you factor in 40% IO uptime, that number jumps up to 12.5k

Dropping into Mallyx and using the elite for the stat increase will obviously be a damage increase, but how much you can tolerate extra incoming damage will be a pretty big factor in how much damage you can do.

skowcia.8257:

Sword 3 is more a burst thing if you pair that with quickness..But hey masterminds, can you tell me how much damage ill get in the tooltips with 2,9k power on auto? ;o

Tooltip damage with an ascended weapon would be – 837, 1115 × 2, 2008 + 669 give or take some rounding errors.

Silverkey.2078:

If my coefficients are correct, sword mh is 2.15 for at least 1.75s while axe 4 is 1.65 for 0.5s. Axe 5 has also a higher global DPS because even in zerker, the torment hits quite high, but it takes more time to tick so won’t be worth it in short fights. For a single enemy, sword 3 is the highest DPS skill of sword.

Your numbers are not correct. You don’t seem to have counted the return hit from Sword AA#2 and the delayed damage from AA#3 (0.5 and 0.3 respectively)

Including those you get the following numbers for sword damage skills:
Sword AA is 0.75, 0.5×2, 0.9 + 0.3 = 2.95 over 2.1s = 1.4 coeff/s
Sword 3 is 0.55×7 = 3.85 over 3s = 1.283 coeff/s

Axe 4 is 1.65 over 1s-ish second. I haven’t put a timer on Axe 4 yet, but 1s is pretty close. This makes it worth using, from a raw damage number standpoint, but the 10 energy you give up for that isn’t worth as much as an additional 2 seconds of Quickness that would be more valuable to your overall damage output.

Kidel.2057:

Knox.8962:

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

As I wrote, I know it does less damage. Read my post again, I gave you other reasons.
sword 3 attack speed is faster, so it will build up skill speed and vulnerability faster, and also gives might and gap closing, that you should factor in time calculation.

I never said it does more damage then AA. It is just needed to build might, vuln and skillspeed

I just got done explaining that it is NOT faster. It hits fewer times per second than the Auto attack does. It will build up vulnerability MUCH Slower since the AA actually applies Vulnerability by itself without the trait. It will Proc Focused Siphoning less often. It also stacks Rapid Lacerations Slower than the auto-attack.

You press the 3 skill when you
a) want to gap close
b) want might
c) want to look like a boss
d) are bad at math

DeathPanel.8362:

Knox.8962:

From a strictly DPS standpoint, Sword 3 isn’t worth casting either unless you need the might. It will work as a gap closer, and will certainly allow you to burst down an unsuspecting foe in PvP, but in PvE content on static mobs, it would be a DPS loss to use.

Exactly, and this is why Shiro despite being a dps legend is actually still sub optimal in pve compared to other classes like Guards and Warriors which both have cleaving large dps aoe attacks.

It’s possible that they are building Shiro to be a single target dps legend. But it would only be acceptable if it can deal more single target dps than other classes that do more aoe dps.

Shiro sword attacks either cleave or pierce. I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t be used for AoE DPS.

Revenants probably still need some more damage modifiers that can be reliably used outside of the Shiro line, but when you shove all of your Shiro-Energy into Impossible Odss, the DPS is reasonable already.

You can maintain about 12.5k using the Assassin’s Presence setup, NOT counting any additional damage you’d get from being in Mallyx Stance and using Embrace the Darkness as long as you can stand the incoming damage.

That is a little on the low side, but isn’t terrible all things considered. One or two more damage modifiers that were reliable would probably do the trick.

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

Neither offhand will add DPS to the sword. The Autoattack has very high ratios for the cast time and doesn’t really require you to press any buttons other than 1 currently.

From a strictly DPS standpoint, Sword 3 isn’t worth casting either unless you need the might. It will work as a gap closer, and will certainly allow you to burst down an unsuspecting foe in PvP, but in PvE content on static mobs, it would be a DPS loss to use.

Silverkey.2078:

For all theorycrafters around, I did try to extract the coefficients from the tooltips + the video (since he uses the hammer also which we know the coefficients). I THINK the coefficients are:
AA: 0.75 – 0.5 – 0.9
2: 0.85
3: 0.55 × 7
4: 0.75 (this one does not seem to be exactly like AA…)
5: 0.75

These numbers are correct, but incomplete. The second attack of the AA Chain will actually hit twice for 0.5 each direction, and the last hit in the AA chain has a delayed component that hits for 0.3 after a second or so.

Including those, you get 0.75 – 0.5×2 – 0.9 + 0.3 for the AA

The cast time for the AA chain is 2.1s as near as I can tell from the stream (Without the Increased Attack Speed Trait). Sword 3 has a 3 second total duration which includes the cast time before the damage starts and the whole attack animation.

From a damage per cast time standpoint, if the target isn’t moving at all and you get might from external sources, you won’t really want to do anything other than AA with your swords and burn energy on Impossible Odds.

Kidel.2057:

Well, dps build should be focused on dps legend.
They need to change the meta to change that. Not a Revenant issue.
Every class has a dps trait line that 90% of the builds are using.

Virtually every other class has a DPS build that works because it pulls all of the DPS traits available from multiple lines together to make a solid DPS build. In the current incarnation, Revenants don’t have the ability to do that because they have essentially 0 DPS traits in any line other than the theoretical Shiro line. So unless the Shiro line’s traits are “do 10% more damage”, “do 15% more damage”, and “do 20% more damage” the Rev won’t be able to compete.

If they do manage to cram 52% increased damage into a single trait tree, that basically means that Shiro will be required to do even respectable damage for every single Revenant build.

Corruption
The corruption line is slightly better looking on paper until you look at the real world uses of the traits.

The only real way to make use of the majority of the line is with either Mace or Mallyx, although there are a few exceptions:

• Bolstered Anguish – The %damage bonus would be useful in an environment where conditions get applied to you regularly
• Replenishing Despair – This is marginally useful in the same scenarios as Bolstered Anguish
• Opportune Extraction – useful for boon removal when needed
• Frigid Precision – useful primarily in sPvP or WvW Roaming

The rest of the line basically requires a condi setup to be useful, which doesn’t “require” Mace MH, Mallyx or condition damage gear to be useful, but those things will only be effective for Mace/Mallyx builds.

Retribution
The Retribution line is a much better example of how the rest of the lines should look. The whole line does “Jalis type things” but doesn’t implicitly require you to use Jalis. There is nothing in the line that requires a hammer to work either, so you have much more flexibility to work this line in to any build if you want some self defensive traits. The only thing that really points to Jalis is the Taunt stuff on Improved Aggression.

Shiro
There isn’t enough information known about the Shiro stuff at this point to tell us much. I fully expect the Shiro trait line will have some sword specific traits and some Shiro specific traits, but hopefully there are options at each tier that are universally useful as well.

I posted the majority of this in another thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

From a design standpoint the theme of each trait line is very clear (This is good) and lets people know what to expect from the line, and how to put together a build to accomplish whatever in-game goals they are attempting to do.

The problem is that the lines are so focused on the Legend and weaponset that have been earmarked for that purpose that they allow very minimal flexibility for build options.

The most obvious example of this is the Salvation tree, which is all about the staff and the Ventari Legend. There is very little stuff in the tree that would see any use outside of those two situations.

The Salvation Minor Traits

• Striking a foe who is using a skill blinds them
• Healing Power to Toughness Conversion
• Increase healing to allies

Here, the first one is useful to everyone, the second converts Healing Power, which only works for a build that stacks healing power in the first place, which is essentially a de facto Ventari or Staff build, and the last one only works for Ventari/Staff again since those are the only outgoing healing sources.

The Adept Major trait choices are:

• Blind on heal
• Regen around the Tablet
• Outgoing healing increase

The last two of those only apply to Ventari/Staff since there isn’t any other source of outgoing healing for Revs at this point, and they end up having a similar bottom line effect. And while the blind on heal is theoretically useful for non-Ventari setups, it is very weak if you have a 30+s heal cooldown. (It works almost too well with the Ventari tablet move command).

The Master Major traits are:

• Dodge Rolls remove conditions
• Healing done to allies is increased for a short duration after invoking a legend.
• The healing orbs from staff grant swiftness and regeneration

Again, the first one is generic and supports basically any loadout, but the other two only work for Ventari/Staff setups and again have a similar net effect.

The GM traits:

• Daze nearby foes when using an elite skill
• Energy fragments around the tablet when you use a tablet skill
• Increased outgoing healing

So you have 1 generic trait, and 2 that only work with Ventari or Staff and both of those are different ways to do additional healing.

Out of the twelve traits available in that line, you have 3.5 traits the work for something other than Ventari or Staff. 7 out of the 12 traits directly increase healing done in one way or another.

If you look at similar lines for other classes they have ways to help out other builds that tie in with the theme of the line. A few examples:

Honor for Guardians is focused on party support, but it supplies Empowering Might and Writ of Persistence, which both add damage to several guardian builds. Additionally, most of the traits that are in the line tied more specifically to the Group Support/Sustain role are generic and work for any setup (Vigor on crit, Dodge heals, Endurance regen, Aegis Heals etc.)

Inspiration for Mesmers has 1 trait tied to Focus, 1 trait married to Mantras, and 1 trait tied to Glamours, but the rest of the line would work with basically any setup you could put together for the class if you wanted to do some group supporty healing stuff.

Overall, I think all of the Revenant lines need to have more broadly applicable traits that help to accomplish the goal of the spec, without being so closely tied to the specific legends and weapons.

They really need to make the traits more generically applicable. The most obvious example of this is the Salvation tree, which is all about the staff and the Ventari Legend. There is very little stuff in the tree that would see any use outside of those two situations.

The Salvation Minor Traits

• Striking a foe who is using a skill blinds them
• Healing Power to Toughness Conversion
• Increase healing to allies

Here, the first one is useful to everyone, the second converts Healing Power, which only works for a build that stacks healing power in the first place, which is essentially a de facto Ventari or Staff build, and the last one only works for Ventari/Staff again since those are the only outgoing healing sources.

The Adept Major trait choices are:

• Blind on heal
• Regen around the Tablet
• Outgoing healing increase

The last two of those only apply to Ventari/Staff since there isn’t any other source of outgoing healing for Revs at this point, and they end up having a similar bottom line effect. And while the blind on heal is theoretically useful for non-Ventari setups, it is very weak if you have a 30+s heal cooldown. (It works almost too well with the Ventari tablet move command).

The Master Major traits are:

• Dodge Rolls remove conditions
• Healing done to allies is increased for a short duration after invoking a legend.
• The healing orbs from staff grant swiftness and regeneration

Again, the first one is generic and supports basically any loadout, but the other two only work for Ventari/Staff setups and again have a similar net effect.

The GM traits:

• Daze nearby foes when using an elite skill
• Energy fragments around the tablet when you use a tablet skill
• Increased outgoing healing

So you have 1 generic trait, and 2 that only work with Ventari or Staff and both of those are different ways to do additional healing.

Out of the twelve traits available in that line, you have 3.5 traits the work for something other than Ventari or Staff. 7 out of the 12 traits directly increase healing done in one way or another.

If you look at similar lines for other classes they have ways to help out other builds that tie in with the theme of the line. A few examples:

Honor for Guardians is focused on party support, but it supplies Empowering Might and Writ of Persistence, which both add damage to several guardian builds. Additionally, most of the traits that are in the line tied more specifically to the Group Support/Sustain role are generic and work for any setup (Vigor on crit, Dodge heals, Endurance regen, Aegis Heals etc.)

Inspiration for Mesmers has 1 trait tied to Focus, 1 trait married to Mantras, and 1 trait tied to Glamours, but the rest of the line would work with basically any setup you could put together for the class if you wanted to do some group supporty healing stuff.

The staff has nearly the same Damage ratios as the warrior Greatsword, which most people consider to be a pretty decent damage weapon. The real difference is that the warrior gets damage modifiers from all over the place: (10% from Stick and Move, 20% from from Berserker’s Power, 10% from Forceful Greatsword, 1% per boon from Empowered, and 5% from Bloodlust) For a total of 1.58x damage with 4 boons up.

Meanwhile, the Revenant gets…. 3% for every condition on themselves from Bolstered Anguish. For a total of 0% in most PvE content.

I think you can imagine that if the staff skills were all hitting for 1.6x of what they currently are, it would be a much more effective weapon than it was in the preview.

AzureSky.3175:

And it’s in the Corruption line (the Mallyx line), Mallyx is preferably used with Mace, and Mace’s attack speed is pretty fast (3 auto-attacks in 1¼ seconds), making this trait even more useless, since you will reset it much faster…

The actual cast time, including aftercast animations, for the Mace Auto-Attack chain is 2.25 seconds. Which makes it pretty typical for 1h weapons that are not daggers. It is the same animation time as the warrior’s MH Sword chain if you are looking for a reference on the Live server.

For comparison, the Revenant Staff Auto attack chain hits 4 times in 2.2 seconds, and Necromancer and Thief Daggers hit for 3 times in 2.05 seconds.

There is a 5% flat damage increase just from the weapon damage itself, in addition to the stats. It is like having an extra 5% damage trait (which would be a welcome addition on the rev).

This Grandmaster Trait gives a stacking 2% crit chance every second and resets when you crit. This is, in effect a fancier way of providing an increased crit chance trait that is slightly more interesting than “Increase crit chance by 15%” or similar.

The reality is that the trait is very weak because of the fact that even at low crit rates it resets itself pretty regularly. The best case scenario is for a person with a base 5% crit chance, who will gain an average of 12.64% crit chance from the trait if they attack once per second. If you take this at a more typical 20% crit chance, that bonus drops to and average of 6.01% bonus crit chance.

I know some people have suggested making the increased percentage higher per tick, but even at 5% steps, the trait is worth less that 10% crit before you even get to 30% crit chance. I’ve attached a chart that shows the average value of the trait at different crit levels and at three different stepping intervals (the current 2%, 5% and 10%) and even at 10%, this trait is fairly weak for anyone with a decent starting crit chance.

In short, this trait is pretty ‘neat’ but is woefully underpowered, and lacks the ability to scale for people who want to add more precision to their existing gear.

All of the weapons were doing terrible damage in the preview. Add that to the fact that there was very little trait support for doing damage, and there is no surprise that the damage output was underwhelming.

It probably doesn’t help that these were exotic weapons when nearly everyone is used to primarily ascended weapon damage levels at this point.

A 33% boost would make it the strongest Auto Attack in the game. I don’t disagree that the damage is low on the staff, but most of that is a function of the traits, and not the numbers for the weapon itself.

I fully expect that Shiro will come with some goodies that bring things closer to the other classes, but if they don’t pack in some damage increases into the other lines, even Shiro won’t be enough to save the Revenant as a DPS class.

Calculated at max range. Using 1.25s cast for the AA, 1s for Hammer 2, and 2s for Hammer 5.

The autoattack is pathetically weak.

5897 DPS for the Hammer Rev when fully buffed.

Using 2.0 for the staff AA chain and 1.75 for staff #5 cast times, I’m coming up with 6420 DPS for a fully buffed (25 Vulnerability, 25 might, banners, fury (with the 50% increase), and food + dungeon potion) 100% ascended zerker Revenant.

Compare that to 17600 DPS for an equally loaded out Engineer. I realize that we’re missing a trait tree still, but to do 35% of the damage of the top tier DPS classes is a bit silly.

Comparing it to a more support oriented weapon set (Hammer + Mace/Torch on a Guardian) the Hammer/Mace guardian can crank out about 13400 DPS in full buffs. which is more than double the damage of what the Rev’s staff is capable of currently.

I’ll post some more numbers later after I’ve done the math for Revenant Hammer and Mace.

Invigorating Flow – According to the tooltip, Invigorating Flow triggers off skills that use energy. It is currently only working for utility skills and does not trigger on weapon skills that use energy.

Looks to me like the actual explosion is the same size as the super elixir (240).

Have you tested it since the update to make sure it isn’t only a tooltip error.

I haven’t verified cast times yet, although I did record all of the attacks to pull apart on video tomorrow.

If your numbers are correct, and you are assuming might, fury, banners and vulnerability, that would mean that revenants are doing less than 1/3 of the damage of the top DPS classes.

Do you have a list of cast times and coefficients for the skills? What assumptions are these numbers generated using? Might stacks, Vulnerability etc.?

Drlightningbolt.1754:

Staff dps isnt horrible, But Im not trying to build for Damage… But yeah I can see why people would be underwhelmed. Mostly I am sticking with playing rev because staff is fun.

Horrible would be a massive upgrade from the damage that the Rev Staff currently does. It does even less damage than the guardian staff does. And the guardian staff hits 5 targets in a big cone with reasonable range.

It actually does beat the guardian staff. The AA chain is reasonably fast. it is still not very strong though.

Chaith.8256:

• With Grenadier, normal #1-5 Grenades are piercing now, meaning if you are able to physically connect the Grenade projectile, and also connect the explosion (ie, aim right behind the target), each grenade can hit up to twice with a flawless throw.

This is not correct. Grenade 1-4 does not seem to be limited to a single in-flight impact explosion. They will explode on every target they encounter and the ground.

My personal best is 79 hits from a single 3 nade toss.