Guild Wars 2

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

We all agree that some players would perform better defensive gear. But we also all agree that defensive gear is not the most optimal, and this is not just about speed of completion. Therefore feel free to advise defensive gear Kodiak, although I do not think anybody actually even needs such advice: anyone can come up with that by themselves. And in return, accept that people explain why such advice is less optimal. This way all points of views are exposed. Then the players being advised can make educated decisions.

Stage 1 Complete: You admit different gear/builds will help people succeed where they are not able to and that for some players a defensive build (gear or spec) is right for them. We also accept that builds are merely tools and generally speaking so long as the player behind the build has a reasonable level of proficiency in understanding encounter mechanics (dodge this, avoid that, stack there, etc) that they can successfully complete the content.

Stage 2: Now we need to take this principle and expand upon it. Different people also have different goals. Some people want to do dungeons the fastest. Some people just don’t want to think about it and just want an easy trip through a dungeon. Some people don’t care how it’s done and just want the reward.

These different goals for each person will have more optimal and efficient routes to those goals. Telling a player who is not in full Berserker gear that he isn’t playing optimally when all he cares about is getting the dungeon done is incorrect. So long as he gets the dungeon done then any route used to achieve that is the optimal one because his goal was completed. A person who wants a very easy time through dungeons and doesn’t want to think about much recommending Berserker is awful advice because it’s a playstyle and build that requires a degree of concentration to notice mechanic cues and when to do what skill and ability.

In essence, you need to find a better language to express your ideas. Using the terms “optimal” and “efficient” are not synonyms to “fastest” but you often use these interchangeably. This is completely misleading and non-educational because you are using the wrong terminology to describe what it is you are recommending. You are recommending they use a Berserker build because it will be the most efficient build in order to complete the content the fastest. A perfectly valid view, when explained fully, and entirely misleading when you simply state “Berserker builds are the most efficient builds.”

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

But I must admit that I still do not understand why someone who does not care about achieving more would come here to spread his views. It’s a real paradox. Helping players would mean that you want them to achieve more, but you don’t. And refusing to achieve more would imply that you do not care about helping others. Still you are here, productively telling people not to care. I am confused.

Or maybe you are confused. As the quotes from our past discussions show, you have changed you points of views countless times. I do not know

I think this is probably another core issue here. You view advice as spreading ideas as if we’re gathering followers and acolytes to spread the gospel. It’s not. I come here to provide an alternative viewpoint to the oft echo’d Berserker meta. Rather than simply let the advice stand where it is and let the person who needs help make their own decisions based on the merits of the arguments presented a number of individuals want to shout down anything they judge and deem bad or unworthy. I am not okay with this as we’ve discussed.

A lot of people around here make some incredible claims that are just inaccurate. How many times have you alluded to or flat out made the argument that unless you play “efficiently” or “optimally” (which really you mean on a speed run build) that no dungeons would ever get done? These kinds of ridiculous assertions are completely false and I’m here to let people know the world won’t end or you’ll still complete content if you play more defensively (either gear or spec) and they really shouldn’t worry about it.

You’re confusing my lack of concern over playing what you feel is the right build in order to complete game content as total apathy which is a poor conclusion.

I level most of my characters these days in EOTM groups. You pretty much get everything: XP, Karma, Cash, WvW XP, WvW Badges (can be used for throwaway gear later) and Champ Bags (save till 80). Also takes the pressure off of having a weaker character with no traits/utilities/etc because it’s largely a group activity.

If you get into a terrible instance where everyone is constantly PvPing or your group is wiping or whatever simply type /ip and leave/rejoin till you get a different instance. There’s even an EOTM guild you can join to assist finding good instances. Staff works great here.

Then I find it’s generally much easier to go back as a level 80 with full Traits and full gear and properly start learning how to play the character now that you have access to all your tools.

I think you’d be pretty surprised long as you just actively avoid the “Berserker” groups. In my experience they’re really the only ones who really will call people out or ask them what their spec is or why they are doing X instead of Y.

Otherwise long as the content gets done, think you’ll find no one cares what you do or how you do it. At least over here in NA PUG groups, not sure how it is in the Euro PUG groups as attitudes easily change from region to region.

I was merely pointing out that many people don’t assume because you’re using Scepter that they assume you’re LH and I went a step further and said many groups don’t care what you are or whether or not it’s the lowest DPS option or the highest DPS option.

As you say, everybody tends to do what they want and will end up finding people to support playing the way they want.

Funny story: I run a 6/6/02/0 1500m Ranger with Knight Armor and Zerker everything else as well in Dungeons and no one ever calls me out on it either.

Really it’s all about the groups and the people you run with. I mean you look at a thread like this one and you can see despite that person using a high DPS (Zerker) build and clearly comfortable and knowledgeable about the class for some people that’s just not enough for them.

All dungeons I’ve ever run as S/D no one has ever asked me about the absence of a Lightning Hammer. You’d think if it was expected, someone would notice the lack of them run after run. Personally I think this is because there’s a vastly greater focus on simply getting through the content rather than how you get through the content. That doesn’t mean there isn’t groups who do focus on the how you get through it, but for your average PUG run I find most people really mind their own business and long as everything is going okay no one honestly cares.

Lost it at Cherry picked quotes to explain why you are wrong about this thing.

Bravo!

Honestly I’d wait till the full expansion and we see Specializations before we really start talking about the meta and what will develop.

I never had a problem or complaint using Scepter in dungeons, as in no one has ever called me out or thrown me out of a group for using a Scepter.

I like Scepter a lot because while I will spend a good portion of my time in melee with it I also have the option to back up as needed. You can play this way with a staff, but then you no longer are capable of stacking that much Might. With Strength Runes, 4 Arcane, and Sigil of Battle I usually can stack up 20-25 stacks of might. However if the group already has someone throwing out Might or everyone is at range kiting (this is the more common occurrence I run into honestly) it’s kinda wasted. You can stack might with Dagger as well, but it’s not for everyone and some people dislike melee with no ranged options (especially, again, when everyone around you is at range).

Usually I prefer /Dagger with it because /Dagger is the more offensive of the two options with more direct attacks but again it really varies on what dungeon you’re doing and what you’re facing for what tool set you want/need. BlackBeard already covered the great options with Focus as well.

All depends on how you want to support the group.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

In fact, it’s more Kodiak vs Kodiak:

Well more like Kodiak vs One sentence Kodiak said year(s) ago taken out of context by someone who spends too much time reading Kodiak’s past posts looking for dirt because they don’t have an answer to his points.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

The fact that you do not see the point in optimising builds and strategies does not mean that you should prevent those who want to achieve more to access this knowledge. Your crusade against people who give advice of efficiency is detrimental to the common good.

And I don’t. For example look at Raven.1793’s thread. I don’t advocate Raven should stop, I advocate that she should find a group that moves at the pace and tool set she wants to play with.

Where we run into problems is threads like Margrave.2071’s thread where he’s expressing having trouble with the Berserker play style. While the advice of learning the encounters more and doubling down to stick it out is certainly valid advice but so is a more defensive route as well. For some users, such as Margrave.2071, this is the right advice as they rely on different builds to learn the content and gradually make their way back to a more offensive role or maybe not.

Man you don’t know the life I’ve lived or the dungeon groups I’ve ran. That said, none has ever taken more than a few hours. I’ve had to drag groups through dungeons and I’ve felt like I was being dragged through before. I didn’t nor don’t really mind either scenario. As was brought up earlier the build is just a tool for the player and there is the right tool for each player. Giving someone who doesn’t know encounters/mechanics the most “optimally efficient” build is just bad advice because they won’t be able to use it optimally. Some people are going to be happy it took them only 5 or 8 minutes to speed run a dungeon. Others will be happy if they finish up in 30 minutes or 60 minutes. Telling everyone they can only be happy when they reach the 8 minute speed run stage is patently false.

You can certainly quibble about advice I give, such as more defensive gear with offensive build instead of using offensive gear with a defensive build but the fact is it’s not a one size fits all solution for everyone. Each player is different and each player is looking for different things with their goals and what they want out of the game and tailoring your advice to the individual is always going to net the best results. Someone who clearly states they don’t want to play a maximum DPS berserker build and then recommending that is just absurd and that happens a lot.

I’ve said it before and I said it again. I don’t have any problems with Berserker, the meta or the advice others give so long as it’s not completely tone deaf to what they want. It’s 100% about how certain players around here want to bash on any advice that isn’t what they are giving. If they don’t think it’s optimal or efficient, they bash on it. What those people need to understand is there’s a lot of people who have a lot of different goals and simply being able to complete the content at a reasonable pace without having to play perfectly is a very real goal people share. Not everyone is about performance and a lot of us simply want the reward at the end.

This is really why I don’t think HOT is coming out anytime soon and/or earliest would be August. Four months away seems pretty soon even then with as little information as we’re getting on it. So far they’ve only officially confirmed 3 weapons but only 1 specialization. Given the scope of what they claim (new traits, new utilities, new weapon, etc) really just don’t see it anytime soon.

Sometimes saying nothing is just as much a message as saying a lot of things.

Seriously what the hell is up with the price of Silk? I need 300 Silk per day to refine the item which comes in somewhere little over 5g with current prices. Why does it not only take 3 silk per craft but also 100 bolts per craft? Silk isn’t as common as something like Metal.

Really should be consistency there.

What specifically do you run on the Mesmer and what setting? PvP is a lot different than roam WvW. Can you link a build?

Supreme.3164:

A mesmer that doesn’t use torch…OMFG yes please! I want you as opponent, every day, every time…forever.

Haha, right?

Neko.9021:

I mean, the Elemental works fine if YOU’RE in Melee >.>

I’m sorry if I sounded like I was critiquing. I meant my reply more as clarification how it works and the frustrations I ran into with it.

Biggest thing I hate about that Elemental and one of the biggest reasons I gave up on trying to use it that way is it runs into melee to do that. If the group isn’t stacked up melee on the boss then it’s generally going to not hit it. Most PUG groups I do almost no one ever stacks ever except on a very few encounters.

Really wish that active was non-combat and PBAOE around the Elemental as I’d get waaaaaaaay more mileage out of it.

Ryn.6459:

I will have to disagree. For me, Guardian is the hardest profession to play properly. And is nothing to do with rotations…is just the knowledge that it demands. You forgot your wall? Congrats, you are responsible of the wipe.

Haha reminds me of my Mesmer. Half the time I enter a dungeon or fractal and people are like, “Why are you still standing here go portal us to the boss!” and I’m like “Uh what….” haha.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah no.
Thaddeus did not mention sustaining hits. On the contrary you used the exact words I wrote, just to contradict them. It is like when you contradicted me when I said that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete content, in an other thread. When you wantonly contradict me on premises that everybody accepts and agrees with, it does not make you look very rational.

I know spending all that time looking at my profile and past posts leaves me on your mind but sorry buddy I was replying to Thaddeus. He was saying that playing defensively and killing slow was sarcastically fun and I was pointing out that being dead you don’t kill at all is sarcastically fun. I then elaborated that we, as a class, are made to sustain through hits and damage and you see this in scenarios like PvP where we have no spammable methods to avoid taking hits and rather must sustain through. If it works in PvP, which I’ll take liberty and say is more challenging than PvE in this game, surely it’ll work for PvE as well.

Thaddeus.4891:

Where cele Ele do better than a Shoutbow Warrior? It’s how he can avoid to be hit. Burning Speed will evade an attack, Updraft, Shocking Aura and Earthquake will interrupt an attack, the high amount of vigor will allow to dodge more often. A elementalist that will use those to his advantage will survive way more than one that try to take hits because elementalist isn’t great at taking hits.

And you’re not wrong that we don’t have a few, long CD in most cases, ways to avoid attacks but generally speaking we have to power through eating attacks with the tools we were made with. This is why “Brawler” Elementalists are heavy into Water/Arcane because they rely on the large amount of boons (protection, regen, vigor, might, fury) and large amount of small heals (signet, evasive arcana, cleansing wave, regen, soothing mist+lingering, etc) which none is huge in itself but it all stacks together massively increasing our EHP. This certainly doesn’t mean we’re the only class who can do this, shoutbow being a fantastic example.

However compare this to a class like a Thief or Mesmer who literally is not made to sustain hits because they have lower armor or hitpoints, low amounts of healing and low access to boons but in turn favor a large number of avoidance mechanics. This is why, traditionally, both Thief and Mesmer are built glassy in the first place because they rely on those avoidance mechanics and attempt to burst down opponents. Build a glassy Elementalist in PvP and let me know how that works out for ya

How classes are made and what they have access to is pretty cut and dry. Using only part of class make up to justify an argument is a poor basis at best and doesn’t make the rest of the class suddenly disappear or become irrelevant.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You think that debates are won by who argues for the longest. I think I have made my points clear throughout this very long discussion, so I will stop right here.

Apparently not!

Again you’re completely confusing hyperbole with advice. I never once actually advocate that people should actually run around waving their arms (how would you even wave your arms around without doing an action???), only that if it were done no one would be able to tell the difference. My stance continues to this day: I simply don’t see a point in min-maxing in a game like this where honestly the PvE is basic enough that literally any build will work.

I haven’t deleted any comments. Feel free to spend more time browsing through my post history. Remind me again which one of us is supposed to be obsessed about the other? It’s kind of sad when you think of the amount of time invested at this stage. Time that was spent trying to dig up and dredge up old posts and old quotes from over a year ago to attack me rather than my arguments. Arguments that many posts later have yet to be answered or addressed. What do they call that again? I coulda swore I heard it somewhere…

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

I would prefer if we stayed clear of ad hominem arguments Kodiak, not only for the health of the discussion but also because such tactic often reveals a lack of proper arguments from the perpetrator.

Oh yea.

As we were discussing in another thread the amount of Healing you end up getting generally isn’t worth the amount of other stats that you lose. Like you’ll only notice a couple 100 more healing on most skills when players will be getting hit for 1000s. Unfortunately the healing just isn’t powerful enough magnitude to really constitute putting points into healing. The biggest coefficient heal is 100% with Evasive Arcana’s Water roll and even with 1500 healing power it’ll heal for around 2800 I believe.

If you already put all the gear together I would give it a try in a dungeon or two and see if you like it and if it’s working for the group and/or PUG you try to run with. If you haven’t put the gear together I would try an easy dungeon like an Ascalon Catacombs P1 or P3 or something and just try playing without the gear and see if that’s enough support for what you’re looking for. If you think the healing is a bit low, imagine if it was (at best) doubled and would that really make a difference? If not then you know going that route isn’t going to be what you want to do and if it would be okay then give it a shot.

Something you might like at Metabattle is the WvW Zerg Staff Support Elementalist build. It has a mix of a little bit of Offense but still has it’s points in defensive/support healing style traits so it has a little bit of both.

My post also couldn’t be more clear when I was responding to Thaddeus who I quoted…

Kodiak.3281:

I mean Defensive Ele is arguably one of the strongest specs we have as a class. It’s so good that in SPvP tournaments it’s pretty much impossible to find a team that doesn’t have one or two bunker Elementalists on it. It’s great for Roaming 1vX in WvW. All these parts of the game where your survivability is directly challenged a Defensive Elementalist has no problems powering through. So to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect. It’s only unable to sustain hits if you make it unable to sustain hits. In fact the #1 repeated nerf to our class year after year has been hits to how defensive we are.

So let me ask you this. If my only purpose was to contradict you, and the post you quoted said the exact same things you said originally, why are we even having this conversation? Why are you trying to call me out on something you clearly already agree with? Who exactly is looking to argue with whom here? You want to grab only one line from what I write but seem upset when I grab only one line from what you write as well? Seems rather hypocritical.

See when I read something like “Such and such class is not made to sustain hits” I tend to think of a character who uses avoidance mechanics to avoid being hit because they have very few ways to deal with incoming hits. For example a Thief who doesn’t have access to a lot of healing (mostly heal in stealth) or boons but rather relies on stealth, evasion and mobility to avoid being hit at all. Another great example is a Mesmer who relies on clones, stealth and CC to also avoid being hit. Both of these classes are almost always glass spec because they truly have very few if any straight up sustainability to just sit there and take hits. You can gear them defensively (P/D Dire Condi Thief comes to mind) but they still aren’t made to take hits where the Elementalist has many options from full bunker to the oft mentioned in this thread “Brawler” builds where they have no choice but to sustain hits because there are low to no avoidance mechanics.

But I liked your list. It was all great things the Elementalist was made with in order to deal with having to sustain hits since they lack alternative escape tools and methods to avoid being hit on a large scale like other classes.

Yea as a mid/backliner I like to aim for around 2300 power (food/utility), 40% crit, 200% crit dmg, 2500 armor, and 15500 HP. This way with 5/5 guard stacks I’m at a relatively comfortable 18000 HP and 2400 power and 2650 with Bloodlust up. Currently I’m about 48% crit and nearly 2400 power but only at around 2400 toughness till I want to invest in Ascended armor (which is another 100 armor with toughness infusions) and 100 less HP than where I want to be (but I’m okay with this since my server always has a nice HP buff from WvW points).

Don’t forget to get a second Sigil of Bloodlust for your Trident. If you cross borderlands or go anywhere near water if you accidentally (or intentionally) go under you will lose all your stacks if you don’t.

Question always come down to whether or not you want a long ranged option (currently).

Ele Staff gives you a 1200m range if you want it. Guardian doesn’t have an option. This comes into play on encounters like Tequatal where you can sit back at 1200m with relative safety and only have to avoid some of the mechanics or man-mode it up with a Guardian and get in there like a beast and have to pay attention to all mechanics.

(Side story: This is actually why I love my Ranger when I go world boss farming, cause I can sit back at 1500 and ignore all mechanics on most fights haha)

Both staff options are great for farming events in PvE and there’s reason why Guardians call their staves “Loot Stick” haha For dungeons both classes are great in high end PvE groups (the serious peoples) and just about any class can do anything else to be honest.

The “currently” part is that it’s rumored and heavily speculated that the Guardian will be getting a Long Bow with Heart of Thorns which would finally give them a 1200m range option as well but it’s not confirmed.

Only thing I’ll say for Zerging, your defensive stats are on point, but yes your power and your crit/crit damage is a bit low. You figure you’ll have 5/5 guard stacks (100 power and 2500 hp) as well as 25 bloodlust most likely (250 more power) so the power will sort itself out but the lack of crit/crit damage means you’re going to lack some burst potential when trying to focus downs. Also you’re not defensive enough to really ride out in the front line to survive spike so you’ll be somewhere mid line which is weird with D/D. I personally like 3000 armor for front line, 2500 for mid/back line. You’ll also definitely without a doubt need Armor of Earth these days with the CC heavy meta that’s developed since Anet decided to gut stability in all their infinite wisdom.

As for roaming someone else will probably be better at covering that as I haven’t roamed since the stab nerf on my Ele.

(Edit: Stupid + signs as underline!)

You’ll want to look at staff builds as Staff has a lot of built in support as a weapon (lots of field generation, CC) and can still kick out some damage when needed as well.

If you’re interested in the various maximum DPS builds they should be easy to find over at metabattle.com

What other elements of game play do you do? WvW at all? Solo WvW or large scale? Boss farming or regular just champ farming?

In regards to larger scale fighting…

When rolling in a large zerg force is where Pack is pretty much the default choice. Most cases you are going to get hit by the enemy Spike and that’s going to translate into the proc always going off in a fight. Also the Swiftness up time, while important, largely is irrelevant in a larger group because you should have 5-10 Guardians spamming Symbol of Swiftness as you go along with any other Eles (most times I am in a group with 5 other Eles and we keep things going with Windborne by ourselves). The stats are super nice however and all around makes it a great selection because of stats, Swiftness and the boon procs.

Generally speaking, for larger scale WvW, you want to check in with your guild and/or server as they may have builds they want people running for WvW. This is crucial because Commanders expect you to be running specific builds with specific abilities/traits at their disposal and it can vary slightly from server to server.

…for Roaming largely disregard the above. Personally I prefer Hoelbrak or Strength for solo but I also mostly use my Shatter Mesmer for solo play so wouldn’t rely on my preferences

I never once acknowledged that Elementalists were never meant to sustain hits and maintain, as others are starting to chime in, that the Elementalist class by design has the capability to sustain and take hits with the best of them.

You very clearly said Elementalists were not “made” to sustain hits. We’ve quoted what you said multiple times now. However, they are made to sustain hits because they are “made” with plenty of defenses built into the class design. Boons. Heals. Condi Cleanse. You then proceeded to ignore these answers time after time again, claiming the only way to sustain hits is through armor and hit points.

If you want to re-clarify and change your statement to the Elementalist has the weakest armor and lowest hit points and therefore we are forced to choose between offense and defense then that’s fine. However, this fundamentally admits to what I was saying that using what the Elementalist was made with can be used to sustain hits and be defensive. I personally take this a step further and show the effectiveness that, as everyone else is apparently so keen to point out, you can even build the character as a “Brawler” who can not only be defensive but also still have effective enough offense to fight.

AGAIN IRONICALLY…these same concepts were given the OP and the OP has already stated that using a defensive trait build (courtesy of one fine gentleman: Aggrostemma.1703) he has found success in his efforts. This, once again, backs up my entire point that sometimes a defensive or hybrid solution is the answer to some people’s problems. And what did you contribute Zelyhn? You contributed 8 posts ignoring answers before you finally relented and admitted that what you originally said wasn’t clear enough and really you meant something else entirely. When are you gonna just let it go?

We’ve been here a lot because Zelyhn is, largely, angry I was the first person to call him out on DPS and whether or not you could prove one spec was doing more DPS than another. Back then there was no way to measure DPS other than spreadsheets which I said were largely irrelevant because encounter mechanics can lead to lower DPS. Ironically he later went on to use this argument to argue the efficiency of D/F and why it should be used even though Staff DPS has been proven to do more DPS if you’re capable of just standing there to do DPS (and that’s largely an impractical occurrence on many game encounters).

Most people who read that understand the concept of hyperbole and the way you exaggerate a scenario to make a point. Unfortunately the language barrier has lead Zelyhn to think I mean these things literally so then later he comes back and takes some hyperbolic statement I made to show a point and use it as if it’s some kitten ing evidence against me I honestly don’t know anyone who would realistically go into a dungeon without traits or with white gear on but somehow he seems to think that’s an actual scenario that can actually happen and people would take it as advice to do that!

I mean hey, I’m by no means perfect, I’ve done some not so community acceptable things in my day (not so much anymore) but all that nonsense has lead to Zelyhn following me around replying to my posts. Best I’ve been able to figure it out it’s due to a misguided sense of doing the community a favor or something I don’t honestly try to understand it.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You replied:
“to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect.”

My point was that the innate defense of the elementalist makes it unable to sustain hits. Then we can build our character to counter that.

The building of the character and its innate defense are two different topics.

We could have talked about the interesting topic of how to use our tools to survive, but you contradicted me on the very premise of the discussion. Seven times after that you are still not able to stand for that point. I am tired.

And my point is that when we say “made” I for one mean everything about the design of the Elementalist that “makes” up the class. That means the traits we get (offensive and defensive), the boons we have access too, the weapon skills (offensive and defensive) we get access to, the condition management we get access to and the healing we get access to and even armor and hit points we get access to. Nothing is not connected. A class that is designed to have lower hit points will generally receive something else in compensation balance wise as part of it’s “make” and/or design. An Elementalist has heals and boons, the Guardian has heals and boons, and the Thief has a lot of mobility and stealth.

Looking at only two aspects to the make of a character, in this case Armor and Hit Points, is an extremely narrow and limited view. A truly objective view would look at not only these aspects but the entire picture (or class make/design) of why they are what they are.

We could still have that discussion, and you’re the only one standing in the way of it because seven times you’ve ignored the answer. I am not tired. At all. If you wanna keep going that’s fine, but the answer doesn’t change no matter how much you ignore it

Boom! Sixth time you’ve completely ignored the factual answer of how our class is designed to be defensive. At this point your hypocrisy could not be more obvious. Every reader is going to look at your posts about how defensive Elementalist don’t exist and just wonder what the heck you are talking about.

This is exactly why it’s impossible to have a constructive debate with you Zelyhn. You can’t be objective. You’re too focused on trying to prove me wrong in any way possible, like you haven been for the past two years! You reply to my posts. You deny the existence of basic aspects of our class just try to prove me wrong. I mean if you’re really that worried about me discrediting you or dragging your name through the mud you should really be careful what you’re doing to your own reputation in these kinds of replies. Constructive discussions are based on facts and ignoring those facts when presented only serves to deflect the truth and facts being presented before you and doesn’t make you look good.

Every class has weaknesses. Focusing entirely on the weaknesses and claiming that they are the entire picture is factually wrong. Ignore the whole wide range of heals, boons and condition management we get in trade off for weaknesses is looking at only one side of the coin.

I can lead a horse to water, I can’t make it drink.

I wish I could just quote that whole last paragraph and make it my signature.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

We can answer all these question once you start answering the original question that fostered them: is the elementalist made to sustain hits or not?

It’s the fifth time you are deflecting. Yet you stated quite clearly that your position is factual, surely then it should not be so hard to reply! Or maybe you know you are wrong so you are going to deflect for a sixth time?

They aren’t two different conversations, they are all the same conversation. Even you know this because (and I quote you):

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

All the talk about how to overcome this weakness is an other topic…

The way we overcome any weaknesses we have as a class are built into the character design, such as Boons, Healing and Condi management. Pretending that these somehow don’t exist or that they are completely separate from character design (as if we just randomly have these abilities!) is absurd and ridiculous.

You asked me in the other thread why would I want to submit anything to the community? This is why. This is the fifth time you’ve ignored the answer. I can lead a horse to water, I can’t make it drink.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

A fourth deflection but at least now you are acknowledging the facts. Next step, you admit that the elementalist is not made to sustain hits?

All the talk about how to overcome this weakness is an other topic, we may address it afterwards, but first I would really like to know if you stand by your point or not.

Do you really think the only way to sustain hits is through Armor and Hitpoint pool?

Does a class having additional access to Boons and Heals for defenses not count as character design?

Defensive Elementalists don’t exist? What’s next? Are you going to tell us that jet fuel can’t melt steel beams?

Thaddeus.4891:

Again Kodiak. You linked a brawler build, not a bunker. A bunker elementalist would use cleric, soldier or something like that, not celestial.

Are you implying a “Brawler” isn’t defensive? I mean look if you wanna label it brawler, bruiser, bunker, defensive, boonway, kalamazoo or whatever you feel comfortable about it go for it. However implying it’s not a defensive build is just silly when it literally has all points in it’s defensive lines and is renown for it’s durability and defenses.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

I asked you to prove your claim that the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits.

You deflected by talking about healing specs in PvP.

So you avoided answering the question. It’s the third time now. Try to have the moral honesty to admit when you are wrong.

Do you really think the only way to sustain hits is through Armor and Hitpoint pool? I mean is that what you actually think? If you answer nothing else, please just answer that one question. Do you also think that because the Elementalist starts with the lowest HP and Armor pool it’s unable to become defensive through other powerful defenses such as boons (protection, regen, vigor) and healing (too many to list really) as well as extreme condition management?

Maybe you should take your own advice and just have the honesty to admit you picked an argument that made no sense. Or not and keep doubling down on how Defensive Elementalists don’t exist. Haha me discredit you? Seem to be doing a fine job of it yourself with arguments like these.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You are deflecting again.

How can you imagine you will ever be taken seriously if you cannot defend your points constructively?

You’re ignoring the answers again.

How can I ever be expected to answer questions when you refuse to read and/or understand the answers?

If you wanna pretend there is no such this as defensive Bunker Elementalists that’s your decision. I don’t have a metaphysical argument if reality is real. If you choose to ignore the metabattle links, the top tier PvP tournament, the 24100 results a google search on “bunker elementalist” returns, the 53100 results “defensive elementalist” returns or the very solution the OP took in this thread (props to you Aggrostemma.1703 – great job!) then I really don’t think anything I am going to say is going to convince you otherwise.

Next up: Kodiak gets asked to prove the sky is blue!

You can find a handful of occurrences, at best, to which I could easily counter by going through your own history and see there are probably just as many occurrences of you trashing another player myself included. You’re a pot calling the kettle black.

The problem with your supposition stating that my way of playing the Elementalist is bad is you have yet to provide a superior solution to the way I play merely an alternative. Like your suggestion about Ether Renewal isn’t bad, but you stop short of also looking at the full effects of having 4 in Water which in addition to Cleansing Wave Major trait but also Healing Ripple (minor) as well as the additional stat boosts that come with specing 4 into water (100 more vitality and healing). It also doesn’t address the loss of Arcane Brilliance and that potential blast finisher. So yes, you could swap out Arcane Brilliance for Ether Renewal, but if you’re only clearing the occasional heavy condition focus that the build in skills won’t cover, sometimes all you need is a simple solution that has other benefits as well.

Now this could be because you, as a player, are sufficiently good enough at playing the Elementalist that all of those defensive tools are not needed for you to be effective. Therefore in your mind all of those “advantages” are wasted/wasteful and not useful. However the people looking for advice aren’t always at that stage and offering middle ground while they work up to that level of skill, such as a hybrid build, will ultimately end up working better for them.

For people who claim there are a lot of different ways to play the Elementalist, all your builds are pretty much identical beyond small variances in weapon. Just doesn’t add up to me.

There’s a lot of info out there already on the Berserker play style and meta. I don’t see why it’s such a foreign concept to people that sometimes people are going to be looking for something different. If you wanna pretend that you’re doing everyone a favor by all means carry on but if you people are going to trash me, trash my advice or otherwise then prepare to have a discussion on it. However lets be very clear: You’re the one making this decision, not me.

Thaddeus.4891:

If you are not new to the game, but play casually only and just want an easy game, that’s understandable.

If you just don’t give a kitten, you just like that way of play even if you know that’s not really good and just make sure to play with other ppl that think like you, that’s understandable.

See I fall somewhere in between these two. Largely I like to just easy mode my way through the game because it is a game and it’s not like I’m playing in some ridiculous PvE tournament when I’m just farming geodes in Dry Top lol. A lot of my builds/gear are modified setups of server based WvW builds (won’t find em on Meta battle) because they provide strong defenses but still provide respectable offense. Most other content I do (dungeons, fractals, world bosses) aren’t that complex and long as you avoid the big things you can get through them just fine.

We all got different goals with the game, and each goal has it’s own best route to it, which has always ever been my point.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You come on. You said the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits. Now prove it, or admit you were wrong and you only said that just because you want to oppose me in everything I say since you have some personal problem against me.

Here are the facts:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health#Base_health_by_profession
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor#Defense_rating

Now go ahead and explain to me how these facts show that the elementalist is made to sustain hits.

I am tired of you making claims left right and center, and then deflecting when you are faced with perfect counter arguments or the irrefutable proof that you are obviously wrong. Stand for your points, or do not make points.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

I recommend you watch the Thrackit In-Depth D/D Celestial video as it covers how to play an Elementalist pretty defensively and really breaks down how it works. By going with a Celestial Amulet in this case you can see that it more than makes up for the natural deficiencies in Armor and Health and when added up with more points in Water Line you actually have a great deal of tank. Mostly this is done through the use of defensive tools (many small heals and regen) and the large number of boons we get rather than raw HP/Armor stats. I personally don’t have the time or inclination to show you basic defensive play on an Elementalist especially when there’s a wealth of information already out there on the topic.

However with that said, it’s extremely easy to carry the principles from WvW and SPvP, more challenging game modes where your survivability is directly put to test, to much more easier game modes like PvE and still have their general principles work. Thus is it is very easy to make an Elementalist who is built around defensive bunker play. Generally speaking, because PvE is so much easier than SPvP and WvW, you can even forgo on a lot of the tank (and still keep some) and go offensive instead and come out with a hybrid that still has great bunker protections while still maintaining a respectable offense.

Yet see I’m not the one trash talking people. I’m not the one saying that Berserker players are bad players. I’m not the one seeking them out and telling them the way they are playing is wrong. Quite the contrary, I firmly believe there’s a play style for everyone based on the goals they have for this game and some will be Berserker and others will be more defensive. It’s only in the context in which those players believe their way is the only advice worth giving that I state they are wrong.

I’m not sure if you know what closed minded means, but closed minded means you are unwelcome to new ideas and different ways of looking at things. Remind me which one of us is telling people there’s only one efficient way to play Elementalist? It isn’t me.

That’s a great question. Why do these people care what I have to say and constantly reply to me? I mean surely if my advice is so terrible and wrong no one would take it seriously, right? You’d think that kind of advice would just be ignored.

Thaddeus.4891:

Kodiak.3281:

Dying all the time and thus end up still killing slow sarcasms on sounds like so much fun sarcasms off

Can’t really help you with that. I learn how to play 2 years ago, don’t die much anymore on my zerker elementalist.

You can tell the OP that. Personally I play a hybrid and always have. I played a Hybrid offensive/defensive build back when it was fashionable to be bunker Elementalist for PvE and I play a hybrid today when it’s fashionable to be maximum offense and I have never had any issues with any game content.

I’ve also personally never seen anyone playing a more defensive build than Berserker create a post stating that they can’t stand playing their character because they’re dying all the time. Yet in the last few months we’ve seen these same posts, time after time, of new people following guides with no proper understanding of what they’re getting into and they just end up dying a lot.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Even the devs disagree with you, but ok.

I guess “factually incorrect” lost the meaning it used to have!

Here you are replying again

Are you really trying to say bunker Elementalists aren’t a thing in this game? I mean is that really the argument you are going with? I mean you can literally go watch any SPvP tournament video and see that bunker Elementalists is one of the most popular builds and it’s not because of their, “ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.”

I mean common! Are you that eager to start arguing with me again you’d ignore the two topmost builds under Ranked under MetaBattle both of which are bunker Elementalist builds (D/D and Staff)? And try to use some spoonfed advertising writeup about the Elementalist class as proof?

Common man.

Thaddeus.4891:

Kodiak.3281:

Personally I don’t get it. I’d rather kill slightly slower and have zero effort surviving but that’s just me.

Zero effort surviving + kill slower sarcasms on sound like so much fun sarcasms off

Dying all the time and thus end up still killing slow sarcasms on sounds like so much fun sarcasms off

I mean Defensive Ele is arguably one of the strongest specs we have as a class. It’s so good that in SPvP tournaments it’s pretty much impossible to find a team that doesn’t have one or two bunker Elementalists on it. It’s great for Roaming 1vX in WvW. All these parts of the game where your survivability is directly challenged a Defensive Elementalist has no problems powering through. So to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect. It’s only unable to sustain hits if you make it unable to sustain hits. In fact the #1 repeated nerf to our class year after year has been hits to how defensive we are.

Now if you take that principle and port it over to other parts of the game, you’ll find it’ll work there too but you’ll actually have so much defense you’ll pretty much never go down in your average day-to-day scenario. That’s where we can begin to peel off a few layers of defense either in terms of spec or few pieces of gear and have plenty of offense to burn through and plenty of defense to take hits.

Imagine that. Understanding the strengths of our class in all game modes and literally getting the best of all worlds

It’s definitely rough if you run Berserker in a non-Berserker group. Most cases they just don’t have the kind of DPS to burn through encounters fast enough and then you start having to eat mechanics that you aren’t prepared to continuously take. Most cases they probably just see you dying a lot and just assume you’re bad when in fact it’s just you’re tooled for a different style of group.

Just find the right kind of group that you want to play with and supports the way you want to play and you should be set.

Well the meta battle classifications of “Meta” “Great” “Good” etc all probably came from the original GW1 website, PvXwiki , where most players went to go get builds and discuss builds in GW1. It’s likely the owner(s) of Meta Battle want to turn it into a similar site but you can see the original breaks down game activities much further.

Have you tried to screw with the wrong kind of screwdriver? It strips the screw and ruins it. You want to use the right tool for the right job. That means if it isn’t someone’s goal to be #1 maximum DPS efficiency extreme extraordinaire and they just want a build you can get through dungeons with recommending a Berserker build is bad advice. Berserker groups are separate for a reason and that’s simply because not everyone plays that way and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

You’ll never see more than hints out of me until this place turns into an environment where ideas aren’t judged and trashed. I don’t expect wide spread adoption, wide spread approval, a forum sticky or hell even a place on meta battle but rather simple and common courtesy not to get bashed when trying to help.

You and other seem to think that this is personal. It’s not. I am not the one finding your posts and replying to them but rather you seem to make an ongoing habit of replying to my posts and turning them into endless debates. Nothing either us can say will ever convince each other that we’re right or wrong. Why you continue to find my posts, single them out and reply is beyond me when you know what the results will be. If this is what you want, then so be it, but remember you’re the one who’s going to reply each time not me.

I don’t think debates are ever won if one side refuses to even listen to the other. You’re not walking away from this with a greater understanding of my viewpoint but rather you’re simply tired of trying to convince me with arguments that aren’t going to convince me even thought you feel they should. You seem to spend a lot of time trying to convince someone you think adds nothing to the discussion. Hopefully in the future you correct this and just go about your business and stop replying to me in the first place. If not, see you next thread

It is definitely not a class issue as my Elementalist rarely goes down and I complete most of the game content without issue (solo story, solo zone, world boss farm, all dungeons, fractals 1-20). This is because I’ve incorporated defensive stats into my build so I don’t have to play perfectly all the time. Sometimes I just wanna farm events in Silverwastes or do a public dungeon while Netflix is rolling on the other monitor and just think about did I dodge that, do I need to spend a cool down and clear this, etc.

One of the biggest things glass cannon guides leave out is that you’re pretty much expected to know every encounter and play it perfectly. That means if you got hit with something, that was you messing up cause you got hit or you didn’t down the content fast enough. I see this all the time in pub runs where an Elementalist comes in D/F glass and just gets smoked cause you got a Ranger kiting, a Condi necro, and some Thief who’s never been in the dungeon before and the Ele just dies in the first 5 seconds of a fight.

Personally I don’t get it. I’d rather kill slightly slower and have zero effort surviving but that’s just me.

Generally speaking the term “Meta” in the context of MMOs means the way players have figured out to play a game with no hard rules in it.

For example, lets look at GW2 and Conditions. Conditions have many factors working against them in the game. For one is the 25 stack bleed cap. This means no matter how many players are there, only 25 bleeds can be on a target at one time. The other problem with stacking duration Conditions (Poison, Burn) is they largely deal their damage sequentially so if 5 targets apply Burn it’ll do 5 different burns one after another. These are both problematic because many conditions are applied inadvertantly such as Bleed on Crit or Guardian Burn auras. There are also a large number of encounters and mechanics in the game be it PvE (destroyable objects) or WvW/PvP (gates and doors) that are immune to conditions but not direct damage.

So Conditions have so many things working against them that the players have come to experience and figure out that over all it’s simply better to work with Power. All things are effected by Power. Therefore meta builds tend to be Power based rather than Conditions.

However this is also changed by the parts of the game environment you are in. For example in SPvP or Roaming WvW the aspects that make Conditions sub-par to Power builds aren’t present. Therefore in those kinds of activities you also see Condition based builds as part of Meta builds specifically to put pressure on builds that are weaker to Conditions. Sometimes these environments can have multiple Metas because there are multiple aspects to that game play. For example there’s Large scale Zerg Meta (aka: “GWEN”) and the previously mentioned Roamer Meta.

The critical part to understand about Meta is there’s nothing in game forcing players to play a particular way. There’s no reason why you can’t make a Condition based character and go play it in PvE dungeons. There’s literally nothing stopping you from going full tank and trying to do solo content. You’re not going to go to the Official game Wiki and there’ll be an Article there on the most efficient way to play a particular class because these are all things invented by the players. It sounds like you’re already on the right track with this, but always look at Meta as a guide and something to base finding a build that works for you.

The Developers in most games occasionally take action to disrupt the meta. For example recently they did a huge change to Stability which really altered how WvW is played. With Heart of Thorns they are removing the 25 Bleed Cap which could make Condition play not receive such a vitriolic response (too early to tell).

The general consensus about taking Healing on an Elementalist is that it’s largely not needed that in order to effectively stack large amounts of +Healing you give up too many other stats for little benefit. Even then it’s generally only considered at all when in the context of WvW.

Personally I have tried both a Healing Guardian and a Healing Elementalist for WvW purposes and ultimately found I preferred the Healing Elementalist of the two. Mostly this is due to the range factor and the extra built in ranged CC (which in today’s nerfed Stability era is even stronger) was a nice kick. I will also say that a full Nomad’s Elementalist on 00266 is probably the most annoying kitten thing I’ve ever had the displeasure of trying to kill in WvW as well.

Also some other armor sets I like:

Caudicus Manor (Council Ministry in Wardrobe)
Archon (Charr Tier 2, but dem pants)
Vigil (Not bad for a more martial look)

Generally speaking I find I have to go for pants because there’s very, very few full length robe bottoms for Charr (see: Flame Legion Pants). There are also extremely few that even support the tail and most of them are all modern ones done in the last year or so (Racial, Ascended, Carapace, most newer cash shop sets but not all).

Hardly perfect and hardly a wide variety but you can make work in most cases. There are also a few good outfits as well. I like the new Exemplar’s Outfit coming out (Countess Anise outfit) soon which looked pretty slick if I didn’t already have a look for my Charr

While not an Elementalist I do like my Charr Mesmer…

…Magical.

Actually you embody the perfect example of the people who keep shouting the loudest and the longest eventually driving others away. Is D/F really a superior build or did you simply argue for the longest until the other side gave up?

Yes you do say that, but you also trash talk and discredit anything and everything you remotely don’t like. This is your fundamental problem, you’re basically a walking/talking contradiction. You argue with people like me that only the builds you deem are the most efficient can succeed and when you’re called out on it and proven wrong you flip flop and say that people should play what they’re most comfortable with. If someone says they aren’t comfortable with a full Berserker build because they dislike it you don’t advise them to stop being Berserker, you tell them they should keep going and “improve” until they like it. You have two conflicting views, which do you really feel?

Tools are neither good nor bad. It’s all about goal and what you want to accomplish. You wouldn’t use a hammer to screw in a screw nor would you use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. Now you may be thinking, “Aha! Gotchya! You’d use the best tool for the job!” except that’s surface view of the issue and doesn’t pay enough attention to the parts at hand. For example, continuing the analogy, what kind of screw? Philips? Flat head? Star? Maybe one of those proprietary screws? See in this analogy the screw is the goal and the screwdriver is the method to reach that goal. Not everyone’s goals (or screws) are the same and the method (screwdriver) to reach that goal will be the same either.

Quite frankly I question you even know what is and isn’t helpful to the community when you don’t even have any data or facts about it. I asked you details, you don’t seem to know. I’m all ready to hear the facts and data.

Actually that’s entirely untrue and shows a basic lack of understanding of how Natural Selection and the principles of evolution work. It’s all about inheritable traits and traits that will help propagation. In this particular case it’s the people who are playing Max DPS builds who have the trait of arguing against and trashing any other build not like theirs. This helps them propagate because people who make alternative builds lack this trait and don’t want to keep arguing or fighting every time they post a build and eventually give up.

Why these people have this trait is unknown. Maybe they’re insecure their build isn’t as great as they think and they have to put down anything else? Maybe they truly think they are doing the community a service by removing anything they deem unworthy? Maybe they just don’t want things to get boring and look for any reason to troll and fight with other people? I don’t think we’ll ever really understand the real reason why they do what they do, but with them willing to buy additional accounts after getting banned to keep trashing other builds we definitely know they are dedicated to the act.

I’ll also say you are again wrong about the implication that you need a maximum DPS to contribute significantly to an encounter. If everyone in a group is running a hybrid DPS/Defense build (bit of DPS, bit of self defense) then everyone should be contributing equally. This again comes back to the point from my last few posts that it’s competent players who know encounter mechanics that leads to successful fights and not the builds. Builds are merely the tools in which players use to overcome those encounters at the pace in which they care to.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I have not heard of any increase in system specs in relation to Heart of Thorns, but I can ask around and see if there’s the likelihood that the specs will change.

Is there’s a likelihood we’ll get a 64 bit client so we stop getting:

• Crash <—*
  OOM: Heap, bytes=8389088

• Crash <—*
  OOM: Heap, bytes=1048624

etc? Pretty sad I have a great computer and I can’t even run the game on what I could potentially run the game because if I do I always end up crashing at any kind of large event.