Guild Wars 2

OK guys. If you come here just to say that it’s not happening or Linux is not a mature enough platform or whatever, please, don’t do it unless you can back it up by strong external evidence (but it didn’t work for me! does not count). If you disagree, it’s your personal opinion. Just play the Windows version. ANet doesn’t need your support to make it, but they do need our support to do a Linux port.

ElixireL.5190:

Linux is not a gaming platform and it’s nowhere near popular enough to have big games companies put money on Linux versions.

Maybe not yet. But with the Steam Box and Valve’s Linux push it’s definitely becoming one. Porting takes time, so if ANet wants to jump on the bandwagon, they need to start it soon.

ElixireL.5190:

There are more vocal Linux users online , techies and so on, who make it sound like Linux is a big thing .

It is a big thing. Not for gamers, but for many other things.

ElixireL.5190:

Get over it folks , it isn’t happening. Stop crying for Linux versions of everything.

No one is crying. We’re asking. And generally we’re doing it without being complete kittenhats.

ElixireL.5190:

The platform is a mess, you can’t have a reliable consumer OS designed by committee and wikis.

1) Proof or it didn’t happen.
2) Linux follows the same basic development practices as Windows, according to what we know about Microsoft’s inner workings. There is no Overlord Chief Greater Architect in Microsoft to tell them what to do. All large code bases are developed and maintained by committee.

I do have a Linux netbook and it’s ok for what it is,but somehow I tend to find that there is so much more software available for windows, you know?

Well, good for Windows. More software != better software, and Linux has enough software to satisfy my personal needs. Windows has more software is an argument for Windows, not against Linux.

Iyeru.5240:

MehWhatever.1248:

Your first bug is tagged as wishlist, and rightly so. The second one is not in WebKit, it’s in ubuntuforums, judging by the description. The third bug is also not in CUPS, but in hplip. Sorry, it’s not that developers are stubborn.

The webkit bug only happens in webkit based browsers. Not Gecko-based or IE-based. (Sometimes Opera does it, but not always. But Opera doesn’t use webkit, it uses Presto iirc.)

As for the CUPS issue, it only happened with that specific HP Printer. I tried it on two other printers, and it worked fine. Even a Kodak printer did not do this.

1) Then I guess you should check it with a clean build of WebKit first (Google’s proprietary Chrome version?). If it’s still reproducible there, report a bug to WebKit bugzilla.
2) That’s why it’s an issue in hplip, which is HP’s printer driver, so the bug goes to their bug tracker on Launchpad

Iyeru.5240:

Ravenmoon.5318:

MehWhatever.1248:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I stand corrected. Sorry. That behavior is with ndiswrapper, right?

No this happens after I ran install_bcm43xx_firmware after the upgrade.

Then I’m waiting for a bug report link.

Right after you send me a link to something you’ve posted around 2 years ago o.o

Linux bugs are often left alone if developers don’t want to touch them or make changes even though it’s a popular feature. Linux developers are stubborn like that (usually, especially system-based developers for file systems, kernel/drivers, etc.) You’re better off talking to a republican about tax increases on the wealthy.

But don’t let that deter you. If you’re persistent enough, and get the idea to enough people, they will help make the bug / feature more known, and maybe, just maybe, it’ll get into the next version:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/504341

(P.S: That’s one of my bug/wishlist/feature requests.)

And here’s a bug I’ve had on giftwrap for over 3 years:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/giftwrap/+bug/485320

And one on webkit:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/webkit/+bug/505383

In 10 days, will be three years:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cups/+bug/511278

Here’s a video for some fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJA9eiUktcA

Your first bug is tagged as wishlist, and rightly so. The second one is not in WebKit, it’s in ubuntuforums, judging by the description. The third bug is also not in CUPS, but in hplip. Sorry, it’s not that developers are stubborn.

Morslath.3296:

MehWhatever.1248:

I really don’t like this nearly religious attitude. Boycotts don’t work in the real world, you know. And you just make yourself look like a whiny little kitten (<< intended).

If every Linux user stops paying for ArenaNet cash shop items, maybe it can work :P.

And I really don’t see a problem in not wanting to boot into another OS (if you already have it, if you don’t, then you’ll also have to buy it) only to play a game.

For example, I hate when my friends want to use Raidcall instead of TeamSpeak, or even Skype, to play Awesomenauts (which run awesomely under Wine with its OpenGL mode), because it doesn’t always work under wine and I have to boot into Windows just to use it. I do all my work in Linux and I am also thinking about uninstalling windows from my machine.

I agree, but just saying ‘I don’t play the game now because I got rid of Windows’ is better and less kitteny than going on a money rant.

Shahrizai.7683:

Twysted.9824:

Hi!

Currently I’m running Windows 7, but I would love to get rid of Windows once and for all.

I did get rid of Windows once and for all two months ago. Which is why I don’t play GW2 anymore. If they release a native client for GW2, then I will start playing it again. Simple as that.

From now on I will only play native stuff (most likely from Desura or Steam). I will even re-open my WoW account if they release that as native for Linux (it seems, it might actually happen).

For me now, it is simple: Do you have a Linux client? No? Bye then …
There are so many games coming for Linux nowadays and onwards that there isn’t a single reason to stay on Windows anymore. Of course unless you want to play GW2.

But how about quitting GW2? Show Anet that you mean it! STOP PLAYING! And make sure to tell them WHY you stopped playing. As long as you dual-boot, why would they have any reason to give you a Linux client as long as you play their game anyway??

I will not play it unless they give a Linux client. End of story.
So long Anet!
It is up to YOU (Anet) whether or not we will see each other again.

(Oh, you are wondering why I came here if I’m not playing the game? Good question! I came here looking for a Linux client. Didn’t find one, so I’m leaving again. Bye bye!)

I really don’t like this nearly religious attitude. Boycotts don’t work in the real world, you know. And you just make yourself look like a whiny little kitten (<< intended).

DantesRequiem.4671:

+1 …it has all been said but…ME TOO!!!!

This comment alone is worth way more than all the Linux vs. Windows circlekitten happening here.

Acidphase.6520:

Guys while I’m enjoying the back and forth you guys went way off topic on a tangent lol It’s taking away the focus of this whole thread.

However since we’re on the topic. “Networkmanager” is horrible for stuff like that(even in general) and it’s considered and marked unstable in a few Distro’s. I’m not gong to claim I know everything about every Distro my exposure to OpenSuse is minimal as I run Gentoo currently and many others in the past from Red Hat to Debian.

Anyway did you try and use “wicd” I hear very good things about that manager and normally is the go to manager when there is an issue with wireless devices.

Also if the driver is being built as an module and your having problems did you try to build it into the Kernel rather than as a module? Sometimes that resolves issues as well.

NM got much better recently, so I don’t think it should be causing issues. Also, Broadcom has some of the best drivers out there (I’d say, third to Intel and Atheros), so I still think it is/was a user issue. But yeah, trying Wicd is also an option.

Ravenmoon.5318:

MehWhatever.1248:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I stand corrected. Sorry. That behavior is with ndiswrapper, right?

No this happens after I ran install_bcm43xx_firmware after the upgrade.

Then I’m waiting for a bug report link.

Right after you send me a link to something you’ve posted around 2 years ago o.o

1) Things have changed since then
2) 2 years, 2 months and 22 days ago I reported a bug in nautilus-elementary

Ravenmoon.5318:

I stand corrected. Sorry. That behavior is with ndiswrapper, right?

No this happens after I ran install_bcm43xx_firmware after the upgrade.

Then I’m waiting for a bug report link.

Ravenmoon.5318:

The laptop is Acer TravelMate 5742G I work on it and if you learn to read, my problem is not that I don’t get full range bar, my problem is that it disconnects me from my router network every few minutes even when I’m actively downloading unless I plug a cable in it.

I stand corrected. Sorry. That behavior is with ndiswrapper, right?

The laptop is with the Broadcom wireless card, I forgot the exact model. It has no physical On/Off switch so the module wasn’t even active when I installed SuSE at first, only after the initial updates it detected it and I had to run a command to install the broadcom firmware. And that’s what I ended up, a NetworkManager that disconnects me every few minutes. Not to mention that the download speeds and request times were off the charts.

You should try following the openSUSE guide for Broadcom chips. I’ve never run into issues with Broadcom, so it was probably a mis-configuration on your part.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’m pretty sure it’s a matter of interpreting. Also I did not read it from phoronix so I might’ve caught up on the writer’s prism. AFAIK they do have native linux WoW client but they just don’t release it to the public.

The Phoronix article states they had a native client in 2011, but the current state of it is unknown. Also, the plan is to release one game soon to test the market, and then release the others if it’s successful.

Acidphase.6520:

Checkout the petition here: Consider development alongside the Wine Project

This petition has nothing to do with WineHQ, it’s been started in this very thread. And I still hate the way it’s worded, I’ve posted why before. Also, working with Wine will not help get rid of the bottleneck that’s Wine’s lack of graphics threading. Thanks for highlighting the real issue with OpenGL though. Nice to get some constructive talk here every once in a while.

infarmer.9836:

The news is in this link >> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI2ODE << and it is a rumor, but a rumor by Michael Larabel. Michael Larabel is the same one who brought us information about Valve and the Steam client into Linux…
P.D. The external link not bring out the new!, very rare, use copy and paste instead…

That’s why I mentioned that article. It says that Blizzard will release a Linux version of a game to test the market before doing more, but it doesn’t say it’ll be their only game in some years, as Ravenmoon worded it.

@soulsuke: upvoted your post, all five of them actually
@everyone: OpenGL is not better than DirectX, DirectX is not better than OpenGL. They’re different APIs, both work equally well when used right. Let’s keep it at that, and if someone wants to get into the really technical stuff, I don’t think it’s the right place.

Re: the statement: there was a Phoronix article about Blizzard bringing a game to Linux, but Ravenmoon said it’s only going to be one game, which I haven’t seen mentioned.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Also to get back on topic. I think that GW2 is designed for Windows because the “Mac port” is not really a port. AFAIK it uses somekind of emulation that is officially supported by ANet. I’m pretty sure they would’ve support the Wine emulation if there was only one linux distribution

It uses a middleware layer that’s provided by TransGaming. There is no Linux version for it, but it’s based on Wine, so it’s possible, yet up to TransGaming and not ANet. Wine abstracts everything distribution specific, by the way. The Windows apps in Wine don’t really need to know they’re running on Wine at all. Also, Wine Is Not an Emulator.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Nvidia is too focused on the mobile market and it seems they are going for their own console.
Valve will publish only their own Source games to linux after investing some millions of dollars
Blizzard will have only 1 game client for linux in some years.

Nvidia is not focused on the mobile market only. GeForce Grid. Look it up. CUDA. Look it up, too. Quadro graphics. And this. Valve has already published a Source game on Linux, with more to follow soon. Millions of dollars? Don’t think so. Also would love to see the source for the Blizzard statement.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Is this the future of linux gaming? Google can prove what? They might be everything but they don’t really care if you can run the latest installment of Assassin’s Creed on your linux box o.o They care about their software and I haven’t seen them making games yet. Like real AAA games, kinda like GW2 or something

Google isn’t making games because Google isn’t a game company. Porting games to Linux is up to game companies, and Valve is giving them a reason to do so with the Steam Box. Also, Team Fortress 2 and Serious Sam 3 already run on Linux. If those are not AAA games, I don’t know what is.

Edit: sorry, just read the source of what you’ve replied to. A quick Google search could prove that.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It all comes down to this. Linux user base is so low, it doesn’t really have a say. It’s up to the developers if they want to port or not. And it’s most likely the latter because the first requires millions of dollars of investment to make it work.

You’re deciding for the developers again. The Linux userbase does have a say, and you can’t do anything about it. Welcome to the internet, where everyone can have their say. Will this be accepted by the developers? Time will show. But I honestly don’t care about what you think now.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Now answer this question … why would I want to invest into linux as a game dev when I have perfectly working game title on windows and mac?

More users => more money. Also, Steam Box.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s unwritten rule that most of the linux users don’t like to pay for their software.

If you call this a rule, you’re wrong. I’m a Linux user, and I paid for every single piece of paid software I run on my PC, including games. And most Linux users I know do the same. Because it’s only fair to the developer.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Some of them won’t pick up my software just because it’s not open source.

Yes, open source zealots do exist. However most of the Linux user base aren’t actually that religious about Free Software.

Ravenmoon.5318:

No offense but in the end it all comes down to money.And linux is not a viable option for that at the moment.

Maybe not at the moment. But in the future it will be, and ANet shouldn’t miss that.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s the same reason you still have more and more iOS developers, because iOS users are more likely to pay for their apps. While majority of android users run around with rooted phones and allowed installation of unsigned software (a.k.a. pirated software)

You so funny. Unsigned == pirated? Really? Seriously? Are you kidding me? And then you defend Windows, where you can install any software out of the box? You so funny.

You hear a faint scream in the distance, then a sound of an explosion.
> Investigate.
You run in the direction from which the sound seemingly came. An Asura engineer is lying on the cold stones of the dungeon’s floor, the last spark of life about to leave his eyes. ‘Raven… moon…’, he whispers, as his eyes close forever. What happened here, you wonder? And how are ravens and the moon related? (roll a perception check)
> * roll 20 *
You investigate the Asura’s body. It seems he has a minor case of serious brain damage. But what caused it? You need to help him.
> Cast Resurrect
You kneel over the body and put your hand on his chest, as you start singing a ressurection chant you’ve known for years now. A faint light comes out of your hand. It grows stronger, consuming the Asura, but he’s still not breathing. Is it too late? You channel all of your mana into your hand, giving away the last bits of your power to save the adventurer. The light flashes, blinding you for a few seconds. When you recover, you see that the engineer has opened his eyes.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I actually administer 10 linux servers compiling and modifying existing software, and yes every now and then using the package repositories. Both official and unofficial.

Could you point me to the sources of your ‘modified existing software’ please? You probably can’t, and you’re probably violating the [L]GPL. Also, using package repositories ‘every now and then’ is a bad idea, maybe unless you’re running Slackware. Running Slackware on servers is a bad idea too.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Yes, I’ve installed quite a few drivers for my wireless. I even used ndiswrapper but to no avail. Yes the wireless was working but it was dropping me every few minutes c:
The range bar was at 60% at all times. To compare, under Windows this bar is FULL and I never drop. It is also full on my iphone.

OK, so you’re saying you administer 10 Linux servers. From this I’ll assume you’re quite familiar with networking. Except you’re not. At all. The bar is just a visual representation of the signal strength, which is interpreted by software. You don’t count the number of bars to determine actual signal strength. You count dBm. Also, since it’s a Linux hate post and you haven’t mentioned any other issues, I’m pretty close to assuming you had everything working with ndiswrapper, except you didn’t like the bar. Also, why don’t you post your laptop model / wireless chip?

Ravenmoon.5318:

No I’m not your average Joe, I did not send a ticket to my manufacturer. I actually used both the forums and official websites.

I don’t believe this, and I won’t start believing until I see links.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Not to mention that one of the drivers I installed messed my system so bad that I couldn’t boot into KDE without running in rescue mode and manually cleaning it up. I don’t remember such thing happening to me after Windows 98.

I don’t think it was an official package. Was it? Probably not. Anything unofficial comes at your own risk.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Here is a good read to see why OpenGL keeps falling behind http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-game-developers-prefer-windows

I can agree with much of that, but OpenGL is catching up quickly now, and it has its advantages (e.g. portability). OpenGL will never advertise things like ‘tesselation’ as a feature, because it works on a lower level than DirectX, so those features are actually up to the engine developer to implement. This brings me to another advantage. My old GeForce 8600 runs DirectX 9 and OpenGL 4.2. DX10+ is a no go, but a lot of OpenGL extensions were added in software.

Ravenmoon.5318:

In the end sometimes its better when only 1 guy is calling the shot. I for one actually like Microsoft as a software developer. IMO microsoft and google make the best software these days. Yes there are security issues, bugs, and stuff as someone mentioned above, but they feel like less of an arrow in the knee to me. And that makes me a happy customer.

I don’t really know what an arrow in the knee means in this context (except Skyrim references).

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s one of the reasons I went for the “walled-garden” that is iOS and not the “open” android. Again that is personal opinion.

Uhm…

IMO microsoft and google make the best software these days.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s one of the reasons I went for the “walled-garden” that is iOS and not the “open” android.

Wut.

Edit: intro formatting.

DeadPhone.3084:

Crise.9401:

Just something worth pointing out, according to their press release ANet is using/used middleware solution to accelerate the creation of their Mac client… I am unaware of such solutions for linux at the moment.

However, the point is, because the middleware they are using is aimed at Mac OS X portability of games I doubt the point about Mac and linux being similar platforms holds water here, unless the middleware in question supports linux as well, which based on the website of the mentioned company it does not.

Edit: http://transgaming.com/cider

You do know that Mac OS X is based off of Unix right? Any version of linux and unix are in fact based off similar code. Why do you think Wine can run GW2 on linux and cider ( a unix based port of Wine) work?

OS X is based on the Darwin kernel, which is derived from BSD, which is derived from System V Unix, while Linux is a complete Unix-like system written from scratch. So even though they do share many standards, there’s a lot of platform specific code in OS X, and I’m pretty sure at least some parts of it are used in Cider. Also, Cider is a separate commercial product, so even if it the code does run on Linux, that doesn’t mean TransGaming will sell a Linux version, and ANet is entirely dependent on them here. That’s also one of the reasons for a native port.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Fair enough,
In retrospect, I’d like to see an OpenGL game look like the upcoming Crysis 3. Then I suppose we can talk about OpenGL being up to date.

CryEngine has a Linux port. Uses OpenGL, obviously. Unreal Engine 3 also runs on OS X / Linux, with OpenGL, and so will the upcoming Unreal Engine 4. Check this out. Real time. And it will run on OpenGL.

Edit: the PS3 uses OpenGL, too. And don’t tell me Uncharted games don’t look ‘up to date’.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I don’t get that when emulated with Wine BUT yup, it might be the emulation talking.

That’s to do with how Wine’s DirectX -> OpenGL translation works. As a developer, you should know you don’t judge the code by the binary.

Ravenmoon.5318:

P.S. I don’t see why people keep calling Windows 8 a walled garden. Granted Metro UI might not appeal good to everyone but I don’t see who stopped you from installing 3rd party apps downloaded from …. somewhere. I find the Win8 marketplace more of a convenience

WinRT only runs marketplace apps. And it’ll come to the desktop ‘eventually’, as already confirmed by Microsoft.

@Ravenmoon:

I’m not a fanboy. In fact, I’m currently writing this on my Windows install. I also have Arch Linux installed on the same laptop, and it works just fine with Atheros 9000 wireless, a Logitech G700 mouse, and a Huawei 3G stick. It also has a proprietary NVIDIA driver in it, and a few proprietary firmwares. I’m not an ‘open source everything’ zealot, you know. Linux just works better for me.

Also running on this very laptop is a build of a custom written game engine right now, that I’ve built with OpenGL, OpenAL and SDL. From my experience working on it, I don’t think I would call OpenGL ‘not up to date’. It’s not perfect, but neither is Direct3D. Also, the same very engine can now be packaged into a Windows installer, OS X bundle, Debian .deb packages, Fedora/RedHat/SuSE .rpm’s and Arch Linux .pkg.tar.xz, all in a simple spec file. I don’t see much fragmentation here, sorry.

OpenAL is not a ‘driver’, it’s an API that provides uniform access to multiple underlying subsystems like ALSA, OSSv3, OSSv4, JACK or JACK2. All of them have different ‘driver’ implementations. Also, even when writing code strictly for Windows, no sane developer ever would call proprietary driver functions directly without a kitten good reason. You would use DirectSound or Windows Sound APIs or whatever, and not talk directly to the driver.

I have never deemed Windows ‘idiotic’. I appreciate the amount of work Microsoft has put in it, and I know it’s the leading desktop OS in terms of the market share. I also know the strengths of Windows and the weaknesses of Linux. However, I don’t like Windows 8, not only because of the Metro UI, but because of the general ‘walled garden’ direction Microsoft is taking with it. Also, supporting legacy APIs doesn’t mean not deprecating them. We don’t use DOS mode command line software anymore, not because it’s not supported, but because it’s not needed. This is where the traditional desktop is going to end up, according to Microsoft’s vision. And it’s not necessarily bad. It’s just not for me.

Also, I don’t know who told you that GW2’s client is not cross platform by design. Most of the lower level stuff ends up abstracted anyway when you write a game engine. Even if it’s not, I’d like to see this stated by an actual developer, and not you. Or at the very least, cite your source and provide a link.

P.S. Your post shows that you are extremely biased, not in your opinion on Linux, but in the way you formed an immediate ‘linux fanboy’ opinion of me just for disagreeing with you. I don’t think I want to continue this conversation, sorry. Also, I don’t think I will be able to continue ignoring your personal attacks to keep the informative conversation going forward.

P.P.S. Sorry to everyone else for not breaking up the original quote like I did before. It didn’t fit the char limit.

Edit: Also, Android’s kernel changes are currently in the process of being upstreamed, and ChromeOS can run on a vanilla kernel.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Desktop linux is NOT a gaming platform.

Unfounded opinion.

As such it doesn’t deserve the hassle of porting over and complying with every nerd geek out there.

Nerd geek? I guess all those organizations, governments and personally Stephen Fry are ‘nerd geeks’. Offensive, unfounded opinion.

It’s highly fragmented with no standardization whatsoever.

Outright wrong. Look up POSIX, OpenGL, OpenAL . Unix has standards for almost everything, and the graphics/input/network stacks are the same in all distributions. Sound systems might be different, but OpenAL can handle that for you.

As a paying customer, I wouldn’t want to see ANet wasting time porting to linux.

Unfounded opinion.

I’d appreciate use that time on fixing current bugs and implement new features for a well-known stable and standartized platform – Windows.

Standartized? Maybe, maybe no. Windows 8 runs on ARM devices now, and it introduced a lot of new APIs that will soon deprecate the current APIs games like GW2 use. Also some porting that needs to be done. Stable? Also questionable. In my experience, desktop Linux is just as stable as Windows, and servers are way more stable on CentOS or some BSD system. I won’t argue this point any further.

Ravenmoon.5318:

PS: Not to mention that most hardware and peripherals ARE designed for Windows and have absolutely NO SUPPORT for linux. What’s left for gaming

How come all of my peripherals work perfectly with Linux? Standards at work, right there.

ElixireL.5190:

A lot of ignorance here, lol, Ports don’t work for big games, folks.

They absolutely do. Examples, examples, more examples .

ElixireL.5190:

Yeah , it’ll run , but it’ll be slower

Unfounded opinion. Also, Source actually runs faster on Linux than it does on Windows, so if anecdotal evidence works for you, you have it right here.

After this work, Left 4 Dead 2 is running at 315 FPS on Linux. That the Linux version runs faster than the Windows version (270.6) seems a little counter-intuitive, given the greater amount of time we have spent on the Windows version. However, it does speak to the underlying efficiency of the kernel and OpenGL.

via Faster Zombies! | Valve

and it’ll have bugs.

Rule of thumb: all code has bugs. Even your “Hello world!” program has bugs. In what way a Linux version is bound to have more bugs than a Windows version, I don’t know. So, I call unfounded opinion.

Linux is not and will never be a popular platfrom, get over it.

Android has 72.4% of the smartphone market. Amazon’s top selling laptop runs ChromeOS. What’s common between the two? Both are based on Linux. It is already a popular platform, just not in the way you think.

It’s for geeks and people who just want to browse the net.

Again an opinion and again an offensive one.

So, let me just round this up for you guys.

• Unfounded opinion not backed by data – 8 points.
  * Of them, offensive – 2 points.
  * Of them, contradicting anecdotal evidence – 2 points.
• Just wrong, contradicts existing data – 2 points.
• Mostly correct – 1 point.

Talk about ignorance.

John Yanez.5486:

I think many Linux users would pay more money to aNet if there was a native Linux client simply because they would play more often and run out of bank/inventory space necessitating a visit to the gem store. Let’s face it: playing Guild Wars 2 with Wine stinks compared to playing it on Windows 7. There are some games that run great with Wine including the original Guild Wars (though you would need the brains of an Asura [or a whole army of Skritt] to spend less than a week figuring out how to tweak it), Guild Wars 2 simply isn’t one of those games…yet.

Never had any issues with the original GW. It just installed and ran fine.

mkaito.6981:

MehWhatever.1248:

mkaito.6981:

MehWhatever.1248:

infarmer.9836:

eddiecapp.1076:

Well… did ANet say something about a Linux client until now?

Yes, they said NO. You can check it in the following link:
NO GW2 for Linux

It’s a pity, the only reason i’m still running Windows is there is no a good quality MMO for Linux, fortunately things are changing, for all you Linux gamers, a new MMO is been developing right now with good graphics and native Linux support, so if you are an MMO gamer like me, soon you will have the possibility to leave Windows SO forever if you like. I had preferred to leave Windows with GW2, i like it, but it seems there will be no port for it. One tip for Anet: Today there is no a competitive market in MMOs in Linux, a port to a linux client could mean to pick a lot of new users, probably more than with the Mac port but, things are changing, other MMOs (at least one) are coming to pick up that market.
…excuse my English again…

All he said is that they’re looking at the market. Porting is not as easy as you would think, and it won’t be profitable in the near term. When there is more market for games on Linux, they will likely port it.

The biggest reason there is “no market for games” on Linux is the lack of games for Linux.

Indeed. Valve is creating the market right here before our eyes. But ‘it is happening’ != ‘it has happened’.

I’m not entirely sure the propietary platform Valve is building will result in properly portable games to “real” Linux. We’ll have to wait and see. It surely would be a grand day for all Linuxers out there.

I’m not sure you can call that platform ‘proprietary’. The current main target for Steam is Ubuntu, which is (mostly) open source, and they’re working on things to make it run on other distributions as well. I don’t think the Steam Box hardware will be open, but the software should be generic Linux, because adding another target won’t make much sense.

mkaito.6981:

MehWhatever.1248:

mkaito.6981:

Mouse camera control is a little wonky at times, but the game runs rather decently in wine right now. There’s a patch for the trading post issue. I don’t get the performance I had on windows, but it’s not bad at all. Porting a game to Linux is a lot more work than most people realize, even if they had a native Mac client. If they could put some work into making it work better with wine, or maybe even work with the wine team, it would go a pretty kitten long way.

Not really. GW2 uses multiple threads for graphics, and Wine’s DirectX implementation is designed to work with one. To ‘fix’ this, the Wine developers will most likely need to rewrite large parts of their rendering engine, and it’s a pretty intrusive change that likely won’t be done in months, if not years. The reason for this is that Wine is always tested for regressions, so the new renderer will need to become more, or at least equally compatible before it’s shipped.

TL;DR Wine in its current state won’t help GW2, and fixing that will take time to make sure other things don’t break.

You’re right. But rewriting half of GW2 to have the engine run under OpenGL instead of DirectX is just as intrusive and unlikely to happen.

No it’s not. Wine’s database lists 19399 applications as of right now, and every single one of them will need to work the same way or better. GW2 is a single application with a single code base, and the engine likely has a separate renderer component already. Writing a new renderer might take six months, ‘fixing’ Wine properly will take years.

mkaito.6981:

MehWhatever.1248:

infarmer.9836:

eddiecapp.1076:

Well… did ANet say something about a Linux client until now?

Yes, they said NO. You can check it in the following link:
NO GW2 for Linux

It’s a pity, the only reason i’m still running Windows is there is no a good quality MMO for Linux, fortunately things are changing, for all you Linux gamers, a new MMO is been developing right now with good graphics and native Linux support, so if you are an MMO gamer like me, soon you will have the possibility to leave Windows SO forever if you like. I had preferred to leave Windows with GW2, i like it, but it seems there will be no port for it. One tip for Anet: Today there is no a competitive market in MMOs in Linux, a port to a linux client could mean to pick a lot of new users, probably more than with the Mac port but, things are changing, other MMOs (at least one) are coming to pick up that market.
…excuse my English again…

All he said is that they’re looking at the market. Porting is not as easy as you would think, and it won’t be profitable in the near term. When there is more market for games on Linux, they will likely port it.

The biggest reason there is “no market for games” on Linux is the lack of games for Linux.

Indeed. Valve is creating the market right here before our eyes. But ‘it is happening’ != ‘it has happened’.

infarmer.9836:

eddiecapp.1076:

Well… did ANet say something about a Linux client until now?

Yes, they said NO. You can check it in the following link:
NO GW2 for Linux

It’s a pity, the only reason i’m still running Windows is there is no a good quality MMO for Linux, fortunately things are changing, for all you Linux gamers, a new MMO is been developing right now with good graphics and native Linux support, so if you are an MMO gamer like me, soon you will have the possibility to leave Windows SO forever if you like. I had preferred to leave Windows with GW2, i like it, but it seems there will be no port for it. One tip for Anet: Today there is no a competitive market in MMOs in Linux, a port to a linux client could mean to pick a lot of new users, probably more than with the Mac port but, things are changing, other MMOs (at least one) are coming to pick up that market.
…excuse my English again…

All he said is that they’re looking at the market. Porting is not as easy as you would think, and it won’t be profitable in the near term. When there is more market for games on Linux, they will likely port it.

Illiander.8049:

MehWhatever.1248:

Gwenanne.5674:

Is the gw2 client still running properly under Wine? I’ve tried it on my new Dell XPS 13", which I’m happy that Dell now offers without Windows tax. But, no luck. Whether running via PlayOnLinux or directly with the “dx9single” flag it has problems that I’ve been unable to avoid.

There is no lighting on the models in the chooser, and the game crashes immediately after selecting a face shape. Has anyone seen this problem and found a workaround?

I don’t think the integrated graphics chip in the XPS13 will be capable of running the game, even on Windows.

Intel graphics chips are really bad.

If you have the motherboard slot for it, I’d suggest getting an nVidia* card a step or two above the “recommended” and fitting it. But my experience with Dell PCs is that they don’t solder the connectors on for anything that didn’t ship with the machine. (which is one of the reasons that I never buy from “big-box” manufacturers anymore: no garuntee that I’ll actually get what I ordered).

• I’ve always found that nVidia cards get better support under WINE than AMD.

It’s a laptop, so I don’t think that’ll be possible.

mkaito.6981:

Mouse camera control is a little wonky at times, but the game runs rather decently in wine right now. There’s a patch for the trading post issue. I don’t get the performance I had on windows, but it’s not bad at all. Porting a game to Linux is a lot more work than most people realize, even if they had a native Mac client. If they could put some work into making it work better with wine, or maybe even work with the wine team, it would go a pretty kitten long way.

Not really. GW2 uses multiple threads for graphics, and Wine’s DirectX implementation is designed to work with one. To ‘fix’ this, the Wine developers will most likely need to rewrite large parts of their rendering engine, and it’s a pretty intrusive change that likely won’t be done in months, if not years. The reason for this is that Wine is always tested for regressions, so the new renderer will need to become more, or at least equally compatible before it’s shipped.

TL;DR Wine in its current state won’t help GW2, and fixing that will take time to make sure other things don’t break.

Gwenanne.5674:

Is the gw2 client still running properly under Wine? I’ve tried it on my new Dell XPS 13", which I’m happy that Dell now offers without Windows tax. But, no luck. Whether running via PlayOnLinux or directly with the “dx9single” flag it has problems that I’ve been unable to avoid.

There is no lighting on the models in the chooser, and the game crashes immediately after selecting a face shape. Has anyone seen this problem and found a workaround?

I don’t think the integrated graphics chip in the XPS13 will be capable of running the game, even on Windows.

Alent.4780:

MehWhatever.1248:

Alent.4780:

I am excited about next year – can’t wait for Steam to be Linux native!

Alakazam!

You, sir or madam, have just blown my mind.

You, sir or madam, should totally subscribe to the mailing list

Alent.4780:

I am excited about next year – can’t wait for Steam to be Linux native!

Alakazam!

RageQuit.5687:

Illiander.8049:

@RageQuit:
nVidia’s drivers are fine. It would be nice if they’d open them up (both for them and for everyone else), but they work perfectly well.

What you’re having issues with is WINE’s DirectX->OpenGL translator. I wouldn’t be suprised if that’s the biggest bottleneck in playing on Linux atm.

See L4D2 for an example of performance for something that isn’t using that.

Apologies, I did make a mistake on that statement. I am kitten off though… Linux is such a great system, the lack of games for it inexcusable..

Well, it’s pretty kitten excusable. After all Linux has like 1.5% of the desktop market. With the rate at which it’s growing though, I doubt it’ll be exusable in 2013. In unrelated good Linux news, Dungeon Defenders was released on Linux, and that means Icculus finally completed his Unreal Engine 3 port, which in turn means more games.

P.S. @whoever at ANet came up with using ‘kitten’ as a swear word replacement, I kitten love you, you hilarious sons of kittens.

Illiander.8049:

@RageQuit:
nVidia’s drivers are fine. It would be nice if they’d open them up (both for them and for everyone else), but they work perfectly well.

What you’re having issues with is WINE’s DirectX->OpenGL translator. I wouldn’t be suprised if that’s the biggest bottleneck in playing on Linux atm.

See L4D2 for an example of performance for something that isn’t using that.

@MehWhatever:
PlayOnLinux includes it by default, and it’s still on the wiki. Would have thought a dev would be keeping that page up-to-date at least.

I’m not sure. It’s listed under ‘non-functional’ on the wiki … Anyway, the game is playable in Wine without it, and there are better ways to detect Wine.

@Zero Angel: You’re absolutely right. That’s what I’m saying, there are more people out there than the ones that decide to sign a badly written, nearly offending petition promoting a single solution out of many. A petition won’t help here, unless you get enough signatures from people who will buy the game again (Kickstarter style) to justify a Linux client.

@atomicblue: WHOA WALL OF TEXT. Seriously though, nice writeup, even if not really needed (IMHO).

@Illiander: dx9single is not required, and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t even exist any more. You can easily detect Wine from the code, e.g. by checking for HKCU\Software\Wine in registry, so if they ever want those metrics, they have a reliable way to get them.

@Jagaroth: You can’t push GW2 on Linux farther than it is right now performance wise without a (semi-)native build, if that’s what you’re aiming for. If you just want GW2 on a USB stick though, it should be easy.

@RageQuit: You’re blaming Linux on Wine issues. That’s to do with how Wine’s rendering pipeline is structured, which doesn’t allow for much OpenGL threading.

@Belias: is that related at all? Don’t think so.

Kain Francois.4328:

Since Windows 8 will apparently suck, I also believe 20013 will be the year of the Linux desktop. I dearly hope ANET reconsiders if Valve’s Linux port of Steam is successful.

20013? I guess someone will have to wait…

John Yanez.5486:

MehWhatever.1248 says :

2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop and linux gaming.

After having played Team Fortress 2 beta, I’m now a believer.

Did I really spell Linux without a capital L? Yes, I did >.<
Fixed.

Morslath.3296:

I’m sorry for the terms I used, I’m was a little annoyed with the lack of response (even if it was to refuse what we were asking) from the devs of my favorite mmorpg.

@MehWhatever.1248 Did they confirm it will be linux-based? I think they only confirmed that they’re making the SteamBox.

I don’t think it was ever stated explicitly, and the reason is kind of understandable, but Michael Larabel of Phoronix, who is the only journalist who knows more about Valve’s plans than is publicly announced, wrote this post, which is titled “Gabe Talks More About Valve’s Next-Gen Linux Console”. I don’t think he would have used this wording if he didn’t know for sure.

Everyone who is still thinking about DirectX vs. OpenGL, etc: here’s a great reddit comment that explains portability in games.

Illiander.8049:

MehWhatever.1248:

OK, I’m doing this.

Dear ArenaNet,
We, the players of Guild Wars 2 and users of Linux, would like you to consider developing a Linux version of the Guild Wars 2 client.

We understand that we are a vocal minority here, and that a Linux client likely won’t be profitable in the short term. But in a longer term, Linux is becoming a viable option for gaming.

• Valve is bringing Source, Steam to Linux, and later on, their own Steam running, likely Linux based hardware to the users.
• Hardware developers like NVIDIA and AMD/ATI gave us updated, faster drivers.
• Unity, one of the most popular 3D engines, introduced Linux support for version 4.
• CryEngine, one of the most graphically advanced engines in existence, has a native Linux port.
• Project Eternity, Star Citizen, Wasteland 2, Double Fine Adventure, Homestuck, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun Returns, Maia – pretty much every big upcoming ‘indie’ game will have Linux support.

This was said many times earlier, but now it’s finally backed by some really good evidence. 2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop and linux gaming. And we’d love to see another great developer embrace it with a great game.

There are many ways you can achieve this. You’re already using Cider for the OS X version, and you can use a similar product like CodeWeavers for Linux, or collaborate with the open source Wine project, which is where both Cider and CodeWeavers originated back in the day. But the best way forward is most likely a native Linux version. A native client will reduce the performance overhead caused by the translation layer (and that is very important for an MMO), improve the overall user experience and allow for most of the code to be reused for a native OS X version, too. You also get to avoid Cider, so you’ll have more freedom with doing whatever you want in the Windows version, and get rid of the bugs in Cider itself which are plaguing OS X users. Writing a new platform backend from scratch is not an easy task, but if it works, it will pay off greatly. So please, at least consider that.

We love your game. And we love Linux. And we’d love having our favourite game on our favourite platform.

Love,
K900, a.k.a. MehWhatever.1248.

P.S. You’re awesome, keep it up.

Edit: grammar.
Edit: accidentally a dot.

Quoted, signed.

That’s how you write one of these things. (I’m not very good at expressing myself in text, as reading back through this thread will amply demonstrate, so I’ll leave it at that now)

I think I’m starting to get better at writing stuff that’s not code, thanks
I wonder if all the technical details are really needed there for a petition (if that happens, because I’m not doing that, because I don’t like petitions in general) though…
Also updated the original text, we now know the SteamBox will be indeed running Linux.

OK, I’m doing this.

Dear ArenaNet,
We, the players of Guild Wars 2 and users of Linux, would like you to consider developing a Linux version of the Guild Wars 2 client.

We understand that we are a vocal minority here, and that a Linux client likely won’t be profitable in the short term. But in a longer term, Linux is becoming a viable option for gaming.

• Valve is bringing Source, Steam to Linux, and later on, their own Steam running, Linux based hardware to the users.
• Hardware developers like NVIDIA and AMD/ATI gave us updated, faster drivers.
• Unity, one of the most popular 3D engines, introduced Linux support for version 4.
• CryEngine, one of the most graphically advanced engines in existence, has a native Linux port.
• Project Eternity, Star Citizen, Wasteland 2, Double Fine Adventure, Homestuck, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun Returns, Maia – pretty much every big upcoming ‘indie’ game will have Linux support.

This was said many times earlier, but now it’s finally backed by some really good evidence. 2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop and Linux gaming. And we’d love to see another great developer embrace it with a great game.

There are many ways you can achieve this. You’re already using Cider for the OS X version, and you can use a similar product like CodeWeavers for Linux, or collaborate with the open source Wine project, which is where both Cider and CodeWeavers originated back in the day. But the best way forward is most likely a native Linux version. A native client will reduce the performance overhead caused by the translation layer (and that is very important for an MMO), improve the overall user experience and allow for most of the code to be reused for a native OS X version, too. You also get to avoid Cider, so you’ll have more freedom with doing whatever you want in the Windows version, and get rid of the bugs in Cider itself which are plaguing OS X users. Writing a new platform backend from scratch is not an easy task, but if it works, it will pay off greatly. So please, at least consider that.

We love your game. And we love Linux. And we’d love having our favourite game on our favourite platform.

Love,
K900, a.k.a. MehWhatever.1248.

P.S. You’re awesome, keep it up.

Edit: grammar.
Edit: accidentally a dot.
Edit: proofreading.

kenshinakh.3672:

MehWhatever.1248:

Morslath.3296:

Almost 500 signatures and no response from ArenaNet, even to say “No”. Seems like they don’t give a rat’s a**.

http://www.change.org/petitions/arenanet-inc-consider-development-alongside-the-wine-project-3

This petition is horribly wrong for multiple reasons.
1) 500 people is not enough to (commerically) justify a Linux version.
2) The petition clearly states Wine as the target. There are multiple approaches to building a Linux client, so not everyone who wants a Linux client will sign the petition for working with Wine.
3) I seriously don’t like the way it’s worded. It might be a personal preference, but it sounds kind of offensive, accusing ANet guys of being ‘partisan’ and asking them to ‘comply’.

I’d love to hear some official word on this though, even if it’s no good news.

I totally agree. The petition needs a rewrite or rewording. Instead of posing a specific implementation, it should leave that up to Anet to decide. When wording a request for anything, it should be written properly with a high respect for the party in mind. (I didn’t sign it either yet because I didn’t really like how it’s worded and it doesn’t represent how I would want to present it to the company of a game I love and play.)

This is in my opinion one of the best things about (most of) the Linux community. Developers are always respected and welcomed here. During all the time I’ve spent using and developing (for) Linux, I have only maybe seen a couple times when a developer got bad mouthed (don’t give a rat’s a**, seriously people?) by a user, and those conflicts were resolved pretty quickly, even without employing banhammers.

This petition is a great example of the other part of the community. You see? We won’t even sign anything that asks the people who do stuff to ‘comply’ with the terms presented by people who haven’t done jack to make it happen.

Edit: Also, the profanity filter replaced the a-word with ‘kitten’. I see what you did there :P

Morslath.3296:

Almost 500 signatures and no response from ArenaNet, even to say “No”. Seems like they don’t give a rat’s a**.

http://www.change.org/petitions/arenanet-inc-consider-development-alongside-the-wine-project-3

This petition is horribly wrong for multiple reasons.
1) 500 people is not enough to (commerically) justify a Linux version.
2) The petition clearly states Wine as the target. There are multiple approaches to building a Linux client, so not everyone who wants a Linux client will sign the petition for working with Wine.
3) I seriously don’t like the way it’s worded. It might be a personal preference, but it sounds kind of offensive, accusing ANet guys of being ‘partisan’ and asking them to ‘comply’.

I’d love to hear some official word on this though, even if it’s no good news.

Re: standards.

Steam is only (theoretically) supported on Ubuntu, but they’ve let Arch, Gentoo, Fedora, Debian and many other distributions’ users in for the beta. Now, Steam is in the AUR, there are Gentoo ebuilds, Fedora RPMs and Debian compatible debs. None of that was done by Valve. All they really did was packaging a single Ubuntu deb right. The rest was done by the community.

So, here’s how Steam is packaged (source: I’ve built the original PKGBUILDs for Steam, proof: https://gist.github.com/4027247, see last comment). The package itself contains the latest (by the time of packaging) version of some basic Steam binaries and two bootstrap scripts. It also has manual pages and desktop entries, but that’s irrelevant. The system-wide bootstrap script in /usr/bin copies the system-wide Steam binary to Steam’s directory in the user’s home directory (~/Steam or ~/.local/share/Steam or wherever you want to put it, it can be edited easily), runs it and lets it auto update. The binary updates itself with a newer binary (if present), then updates the CDR and restarts. From that point, when you call the bootstrap script (/usr/bin/steam), it will check the local Steam version in ~ and compare it to the system-wide one. If the system-wide one is newer, it will automatically update your ~ installation, but if it’s older, Steam will be called directly from ~.

Here’s how it could work for GW2. First of all, GW2 makes things way easier by having two main files instead of a bazillion, like Steam. For a Linux version, we’ll have to go with six.
1) System-wide files: /usr/bin/gw2 – a bootstrap script, /usr/share/gw2/gw2.bin – a preseed updater binary, /usr/share/applications/gw2.desktop – a desktop file, /usr/share/man/man1/gw2 – a manual page.
2) User files: ~/.local/share/gw2/gw2.bin – a current updater binary, ~/.local/share/gw2/gw2.dat – the data file. Other game files (settings, logs, etc) can also be placed in ~/.local/share/gw2/ or ~/.local/share/gw2/user/.

Installation process:
1) Install the system-wide files.
2) Wait for user to run the boostrap script.

Bootstrap process:
1) Check if local files are not present for this user.
2) Check if local files are present, but the local version is older than preseed files.
3) Check if local files are present, but the version can’t be read.
4) If any of (1), (2), (3) is true, update the local game files with the preseed ones.
5) Start the local updater.

From there, the local updater can work exactly like the Windows version, i.e. just downloading to the same directory it’s in. This also allows any user to download the updater and run it locally from wherever they desire (e.g. a shared NTFS partition, so data files don’t need to be duplicated/redownloaded).

TL;DR: Sane packaging for one distro == community support on most of them.

Illiander.8049:

Cider is not a fork of WINE. Cider may use many of the same ideas that WINE uses, but if it uses any of the same codebase, they’re in a lot of trouble.

It is a question of priorities, but not the way you make it sound. ANet could take all the money they’re throwing at Cider, and throw it to CodeWeavers instead. Bam! Support for Mac, Linux, BSD, Haiku, Solaris, SCO OpenServer, [50 other UNIXes that I can’t remember the names of anymore]…

WINE’s “design issues” don’t seem that major at my end. Everything is looking just rosy here, and it’s not even getting any ANet dev support.

Cider is derived from Cedega, which is a continuation of WineX, which is a fork of Wine. This is perfectly legal, as Wine’s license allows it. CodeWeavers might be a better option considering they upstream at least some of their code, but a native client is still the best option.

Bushido.2184:

stof.9341:

Bushido.2184:

^ this pretty much. And DirectX became the de-facto API not because it was better, but because of a vicious cycle of a popularty bandwagon.

No, it was because it WAS better. OpenGL at the time DirectX became dominant was horribly mismanaged and borderline stagnant.

It “was” better, for a while. OpenGL sucked first half of the 2000’s and probably a few years more, but now? It’s simply the network effect. Valve even managed to get the Source engine to run faster under OpenGL in a few months than DirectX which they’ve been working with for years.

Porting to Linux (or Mac) would have been much easier and less costly if OpenGL was used =/ I guess best bet now would be cooperating with Wine devs as Soulsuke said, which still sucks but beggars can’t be choosers.

Working around Wine’s design issues (that basically make graphics threading nearly impossible, and are only resolved in proprietary forks like Cider) while a proper solution is designed will also be a lot of unnecessary work. It’s true that beggars can’t be choosers, but I don’t think *nix users are beggars now. There’s enough market to justify a native client, if it’s done right. It’s a question of priorities, as ArenaNet people are working on content updates more than anything else, and writing abstractions for rendering, sound, input, network and maybe some other stuff from scratch takes a lot of time.

kenshinakh.3672:

I think we should just put our OS preference aside.

kenshinakh.3672:

I’m pro-Windows and Linux, but I prefer Windows for personal reasons.

kenshinakh.3672:

This thread should just be “+1 for Linux support in the future” not a “Linux vs Windows vs other OS” thread. I’d hate for such a positive expansion of the GW2 universe to be riddled with useless and senseless flame wars.

I can’t +1 this guy enough.

@ArenaNet: Go for it. It might not be commercially feasible now, but in a few years quality Linux gaming will become reality, considering how much effort Valve and the others are putting into it, and you’ll get your userbase. And please, drop Cider or whatever wrappers you’re using, if not now, then think about it in the long term. It’s a bad hack, and it works (when it does actually work) much worse than a native implementation.

@Everyone else: re: Linux vs. Windows, etc. It’s a matter of personal preference. Just enjoy whatever OS you like and let’s stop this flame war, please.

I don’t really see why ANet would be against Cyrillic letters (or any other Unicode symbols for that reason). People with Latin-based alphabets can use their native languages in chat, why can’t we? Also, nice job on the font Kreven, you nailed the original look

kirito.4138:

I am using dexpot 1.6.3 build 2167 without any issues, I haven’t tired the newer 1.6.4 yet.

I think it broke in 1.6.4. Maybe it’s just my setup though. Do you have screen corner mouse gestures enabled?

Solved. Tried to think of what was using the mouse, found Dexpot. Closed Dexpot, now it all works. Now to go bug Dexpot developers.

No, anything USB breaks it. Just tried with an ancient Genius dumbest-mouse-ever. Also did a repair install and reinstalled drivers for all the mice. No go. Reported a bug to ANet Support.

And another update: in windowed mode, lag is only present when moving the mouse inside the game window. By now I’m pretty sure it’s a bug.