Guild Wars 2

I love my Necro.
I can solo event chains in Orr.
I can maintain 20 bleeds on a Champion, then watch his minions melt away using one skill.
I do that from 900 range.

For the condition P/D thief, it’s a similar strategy, but they usually appear long enough to successfully place your marks at his feet. You also need to know how long to hold his bleeds before you Staff #4 and transfer them back to him (usually after 2-3 Sneak Attacks). By this time you should also have a nice stack of bleeds on him. When he runs towards you, it’s usually for CnD, so dodge at the right time (CnD costs a LOT of initiative). You can also use that opportunity where you know he’s coming in melee range to land whatever mark you like at your feet, for example #5.

It’s been a recurring theme that Necros are unable to effectively fight Thieves, so I created this thread to share what little experience and tips I have with them, and to motivate others who have successful encounters to post their ideas too.

I play PvE and WvW, so my encounters with thieves are only limited to the latter. My build is hybrid carrion/rabid and I use 0/30/20/0/20 in WvW, using greater marks, shorter marks CD, LF on triggered marks and shorter Corruption-skill CDs. Hence, my advice is specific to other Necros who roll with similar builds.

1. Using marks more effectively and having a greater chance of triggering them:
I think it’s safe to say that most thieves are melee oriented. There are usually two ways a melee thief would open – steal or backstab (you should be attentive to see them approaching). In both cases, to effectively have your marks land, you shouldnt be placing them as if you were fighting another class (predicting a few steps in advance where he’ll be). Instead, you should be placing the marks at YOUR feet. Believe me, the thief will trigger them. After, you should have some armor and health to soak up some hits, although moving forwards and back (the “About Face” move is pretty effective) will cause the thief to miss a few hits because he has to constantly re-aim to land hits.

Within 5s, he will stealth. Note, it is very important NOT to spam all your #3-5 marks because they have very different uses!! At this point, follow the direction he was running in before he disappeared and place a #2 and #3 (predicting his location). The reason for doing this is because most thieves have condition removal in stealth, so you want RNG to work against them – not removing the conditions he wants removed. #2 and #3, combined, give bleed, poison and chill, so if he’s left with the bleed – that’s a good thing.

Get used to counting 3s, and right before that, pop DS to absorb backstab damage, use #2, dance around with him, and even though you cant see him (rendering issue) you still can see your damage taken. Pull of #4 right before he disappears (this needs practice) and it will chain even in his stealth. The best thing about DS#4? You dont need to be facing him (like Dagger #2 or Axe #2), but you will still need to have some smarts predicting where he’ll be (generally his last known bearing is a good guess).

The other option is to BiP when he comes out of stealth, with #2 and #4 at your feet so he’ll take everything. This step and the previous is interchangeable, although if you have DS integration you should use that first.

In no time, he will have bled out, thanks to their low health pool. Note: Pre-placing #2 at your feet when you know he’s coming helps tremendously too. It should CD fast enough so when he arrives, you can place another one – 6 stacks of delicious bleeding. (Thieves’ hunger for blood won’t be stopped by a red circle at your feet.). I also have a high-90s success rate of landing my marks on thieves.

2. Dodging and Heartseeker:
Face it, your dodges are going to be useless against backstab. Instead, why not use it to waste initiative? When the thief is de-stealthed, dodge far away so he would try to HS you, but its range is not too big so he would miss the first one at least. Thief initiative lost.

3. When in a group:
Dont start running away from your group when you find you’re being focussed by a thief!!

4. Thieves like fighting around NPC mobs, so should you:
If you are able to fight on your terms, pick a neutral creature, like a Deer over a Wolf because they’re going to be chasing you! Also would be a very good idea to stay mobile. Thieves fight around NPC mobs because they can always pull CnD off these neutrals. Works against you because the animal will start attacking you. Or not? Being stealth doesn’t protect you from being AOE-ed. Drop BiP on the animal and Epidemic, it’s a sure way of getting your bleeds on the thief. Also, when the animal dies (easily), you get LF.

In all my encounters with smart thieves, I’ve been successful at chasing them away (you know, when they stealth and disappear to regen). For less smart thieves, I’ve always killed them. That’s all the experience I have with thieves as of now, if anyone has more tips, contributing it would be greatly appreciated.

Xom.9264:

Still waiting for those screen shots showing all of you claiming Necro is ‘fine’ have actually done a fair amount of tpvp.

You people have the nerve to post L2P crap when you dont even play.

Regarding the argument of some top players on teams using necro, they are getting carried or have comps that kind of fit the class but another could class could fill the role with no problems and probably do better.

Just post your tpvp wins with necro already or admit what we already know… you people saying necro is fine dont tpvp.

Thanks.

Well sorry Mr. Perfect, we cant PvP like you. But when you center your argument around ONE aspect of the game, PvP, you’re gonna get just that. Perhaps Necros do have a balance problem, perhaps there’s a real reason why Necros are underplayed in PvP. But that’s PvP. Not everyone plays GW2 to PvP.

If you actually look at the complaints and rants on the Necro forums, they come from all aspects of the game – can’t get Gold in World Events, can’t kill opponents, can’t tank, can’t DPS in WvW, PvE + dungeons, PvP.

However, there is proof on the forums that we can actually do those things, except it’s a little harder to find a build that works right with which one can fight effectively in. This requires experience and thought. We are not a button mashing class.

As the OP has stated very clearly, the point of this thread was to address the recurring issue of unvalidated, unsupported exaggerations of the class that only serves as a self-fulfilling prophecy. We are trying to tell people to experiment more, to try out more builds and to have some fun creating a build that works for one’s self, instead of, for example, finding that minion AI doesnt work as promised and then concluding that the whole class is broken. We are not saying the class is “fine”, we recognise that there are problems and bugs that need to be addressed, some crippling like minion AI which will be resolved in future (ANet’s communication is another issue), but that’s not the only build available. If MM is the only thing you will ever play, fine, leave the class, but it still isnt “broken”?!

You have a valid point that Necros may not do well in PvP, but to conclude that the class is “not fine” based on ONE aspect of the game is flawed.

Xom.9264:

Regarding the argument of some top players on teams using necro, they are getting carried or have comps that kind of fit the class but another could class could fill the role with no problems and probably do better.

This, you know for a fact or is that your opinion?

A tanky build is a tanky build, I agree. But for the Valkyrie Warrior, “Fat Heavy Ninja” Guardian, “Medicat” Engineer and “Wild Bill” Thief – how well do you think they could fight without their blocks, invulnerability, teleports and stealth? It just sucks that our “oh-kitten-button” (<— commonly interpreted purpose of DS) doesnt grant invulnerability/blocks.

Again, dont miss the point. See above.

PS: No hate against the above mentioned players, just pointing out their playstyles.

Xom.9264:

Talking is not doing.

Post your champion phantom tag Sheobix before you type L2P goes for alot of you.

For the record my condition Mesmer has smashed every single champion phantom I have played against. That’s not even considered the top Mesmer build but a tier 2 build. You think DS makes us ‘tanky’ lol you should see a Mesmer that does not spec glass cannon I have so many reset options on my Mes never taking damage in the first place is > extra HP.

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At least the class is moving in the right direction few bug fixing will put the class in a solid balanced spot.

How well do you fight without your “so many reset options”? I’ve heard someone mention it before in the Necromancer forums that the profession requires more skill to play even at a basic level. We need to be of a certain level of mastery (skills both self and opponent’s) before we can be successful.

In this way, it punishes the casual players (the bulk of GW2 players, I would assume) because you don’t have shield blocks/invul like Warriors, Guardians and Engineers, no stealth/teleport like Thiefs and Mesmers, no mistform/rapid mobility like Eles, and evasive maneuvers like rangers (the flesh wurm doesnt count). There’s no way to charge into battle with a zerg headfirst, and have a guaranteed retreat option. How many times have I downed Elementalists only to have them mistform back into their group? Thiefs, who stealth and pull back from the fight, only to come back full health and harass you?

Necro has no options like that, so it takes a lot more skill to master. This could be interpreted to us being UP or “broken” (as cited numerously), or that other classes are “so much better”. I’m not suggesting this as an idea for improvement, but imagine if we had a DS #5 that gave us invulnerability for 3s.. would people still be complaining (bugs aside)?

PS: Dont miss the point. I’m not saying the solution is invulnerability/block skills, I’m saying that there’s no easy “reset” option for Necros that makes it difficult to recover if one makes a mistake. I am saying that the profession is the least forgiving out of all.

I have about 1500 kills and about 550 badges, that makes my ratio about 2.7 : 1. I run a hybrid build using Staff and Dagger/WH (latter specially for thieves). I don’t have problem getting tokens, and it seems like you have to do a decent portion of the damage to an opponent to have a greater chance of getting tokens, hence it’s usually in a big scale encounter that I get most of my badges. Also, I very often get 2 badges from supply camp supervisors because of my repeated bleeds (Staff #2 and BiP) – my guess is most people there are of the bursty type.

In long conflicts I can get a lot of badges just because I keep marking enemies and enemies keep healing. Say if an enemy’s life is 5X, and my marks do 1X damage (full duration), in the course of a long fight (say 10 min) I could have landed maybe 10 marks on him (CD is 4.75s traited mind you) as he keeps healing. That means I’ve done 10X damage to him, then someone bursty comes along and kills him, dealing 5X damage. I would most likely get badges because I did twice as much damage total. I’m not sure this is how I get my badges or if it is pure luck, but I’m open to interpretations.

One note for people who spam F when they see a jagged horror – If your key binds are the default, if you press Control, you can see “Bag of Loots” (if any within range) so you dont have to spam F.

PolarApe.9351:

I get it, I have to play it a certain way to be effective. Been talking to people in game and getting more info and advice. Got some great builds people have linked me, etc etc.
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If I get another profession to 80 and it’s also another case of ‘you can only pick one or two builds and all the other stuff is junk’ I’m probably done with GW2.

It’s fair to say you don’t like the Necro style (or builds as have been identified), just as there are different game genres – RPG, FPS etc. But to say that “Necros are inflexible” is unfair to the rest of us, especially players who are interested in trying the profession (which is the whole point of the OP). You will need to elaborate and justify.

@Fynd – I didnt realize that the downed person takes damage upon trigger. What about the bleed stacks?

If so, I can see the benefit of having it this way. My eyes have been opened, thanks guys!

One more thing regarding damage output of conditionomancers in PvE using scepter and staff – It takes about 6-8s to reach your max bleed stacks, but once you do it’s lovely. Assuming your bleeds tick for 100 damage (as an average number – mine can reach 150), you’re doing 2k damage per second (I get 20 stacks on average).

“That does not seem much”, you say. Given I’m able to upkeep this 20 stacks on a Vet or Champion, one Epidemic later, all the little minions are melting away at 2k/s. And I can do that every 12s (traited).

Tell me which profession can do that from 900 range.

Just throwing this out there because it has always bugged me in WvW. Scenario (that repeats itself) – Every time I down someone on top of the wall, I’m unable to kill him off because marks can’t trigger.

What is the reason our marks can’t trigger on downed opponents? Intended design or bug?

“Instant cast” is a bit of a stretch, #2 has a 0.5s cast time, #3 is 0.25s (from memory, may be wrong). Anything around 0.2s could be considered instant cast because the average human response time is 0.2 – 0.25s.

Edit: I thought there was some talk about the marks being blockable despite traiting because it’s bugged?

PolarApe.9351:

So my Necro is almost 80…… I hit level 79 in WvW this morning … and I hate it more than ever.

Blah blah blah..

If you’re “running from veterans”, missing your marks, having a generally bad experience in PvE, then I really have to say you’re one bad Necro. It would help if you would share your build.

I use hybrid gear, and have no problem in PvE. I can solo an event chain in Straits of Devastation involving three Champions and an Eye of Zhaitan without going down. Mobs in these areas are definitely harder to kill, so if you dont fight wisely you will die. That said, dont expect to kill anything using DS autoattack if you’re not a Berseker/Valkyrie build. I use DS to soak up damage because it’s a freely replenishable resource (that refills in %, not numbers like HP, so there’s no such thing as “effective healing”).

If your marks arent landing, it’s not a Necro problem. I mean, if you take a few steps back from 100b, it doesnt hit you. Walk out of a meteor shower, it doesnt hit you. Any spin-to-win, get out of range it wont hit you. Honestly, you just need to predict better, and use Greater Marks to help you too. I dont know what’s there to complain about..

In WvW the marks are indispensable. By the end of two large scale encounters (such as attacking or defending an objective), I can usually get all 25 stacks on my Corruption sigil. I dont do bursty damage, but I wither everyone down that when the fight starts, they only have half their life remaining. If the enemy is defending, anyone who is dying will be running to the back to regenerate. In that time, they’re not AOEing the gate and my forces, so I greatly support my team/server and squishy friends. Thief stealth stomp is easily stopped with Staff #5. After he’s feared, Staff #2 him to keep him occupied, Staff #3 to keep him at a distance while you res your team mate (when feared, he runs directly away from you so you can easily predict where he’ll be). Really, the list just goes on and on.

I’m sorry for being so blunt, but really dude, if playing your Necro to 80 hasnt taught you how to utilise your skills and fight effectively, I dont know what will.

Edit: That solo chain.. is done with abusing LOS or anything. It’s legit fighting.

After reading these posts, I’ve also begun farming this event chain, it’s actually pretty enjoyable now that I know how to do it solo (guild is small, and the map is usually devoid of other players).

I got an exotic each for my first two runs and blues after that, if that gives anyone confidence that the loot tables are not entirely screwed.

I’m a Necro, so it fits me perfectly.
I WANT THIS STAFF, SANTA.

sorrow.2364:

As I said, I’m not talking about PvE.
I’m talking about any competitive environment, in which class unbalances feel heavy. Necros are absolutely subpar to any other profession in PvP and that’s the whole my point. I don’t think Necros are weak in PvE.

“Absolutely subpar”? If you consider that a top ranked player in PvP is a Necro, do you think it’s an individual problem, or a profession problem?

Fenixsis.7056:

One of my only issues thus far with a necromancer, despite the negative feedback , that I don’t like is that your skills while in the death shroud are weak compared to you regular skills the only reason I go into it is so I don’t die. Which leads to my second problem with it. Which is the fact that it is way to easy to be pulled out of it… Also there is not enough life force taken from the enemies to make a difference. For me necros are my fave riot class no matter the criticism but still would like to see this improved

Depends on your build. Dont expect to trait into anything other than Vitality or Power and expect DS to be a miracle. For example, DS in Rabid builds suck. What needs improvement on your part is to understand DS better and what affects it, and on ArenaNet’s part, to fix the bugs.

OP, you have to understand that every build has it’s strengths and weaknesses. I’m citing typical examples: 1. Bunker – Strong support/survivability, poor DPS. 2. Glass Cannon – Amazing DPS, poor survivability, and et cetera et cetera.

You have to know the strengths and weaknesses of your own build. After you realize that, pick your fights wisely.

Now about your build, we still havent seen your build so we cant point out what could be improved. However, I can cite two typical conditionomancer builds and what you have to look out for.

1. Rabid build – Precision, Toughness, Condition Damage: Your damage against structures and burst damage is going to be pathetic. DS does not synergise well with this build, IMO, as power is weak. Toughness is good, but survivability comes in two flavours, toughness and vitality, and one without the other is not effective. I used to roll with this build but lost interest because I couldnt use DS to its full potential.

2. Carrion build – Power, Vitality, Condition Damage: Now I roll with the “hybrid” build, and the results have been very interesting. There are certain tweaks you can make to this cookie cutter build, but if you do it right, your DS will be pretty decent (1k base damage for autoattacks, lifeblast criting for 3-4k), and my conditions can tick for 145 in my complete gear. Base HP is 23k. I do decently with structures, I hardly die now in W3 (’cause I also pick my fights wisely), and I shine particularly in sieges or siege defences.

I’ve played for 2 months now, and I’ve finally found a build I love, but more importantly, I know my role in W3 – I support my bursty friends, I’m a crowd thinner, I pick on the weak, I am that filter course everyone hated in University. Anyone that goes down is instantly hit with BiP, anyone who tries to save him gets Epidemic; I do the same to ranger pets. If I cant get the ranger himself, his pet will bring home a nasty surprise for him. Being hybrid, I can survive well against thiefs and mesmers, though I still find them a challenge. One thing I realized about the scepter (same for axe) is that you need a target to attack. It’s unlike the dagger (less staff due to attack speed) that can hit even without a target. Most thiefs are melee, so daggers can hit them if they’re close. Make use of your marks wisely, especially to protect your back in such cases. Use DS properly – a thief’s bane is chill.

Necros feel underpowered now because of all the bugs and mismatched traits (I’ve made the best out of my situation and I am happy), but it has a lot of potential, and I am sure that with minor balances and fixed bugs, Necros will be a hard hard profession to kill.

(Edited base HP)

thanks for the information! if you didnt point it out, I wouldnt have noticed. right after you said it, I bought full Ogden (carrion) exotic armors for 8g only (gloves and helm were less than a gold!).

also, a tip for everyone: I’ve noticed the prices of plain rings to be around the 1.3-1.5g range, and L80 jewels in the 70s range. It would be cheaper to buy the rings and upgrade yourself than to buy upgraded jewels for 2.7g.
(prices quoted from yesterday’s TP, 18 Nov)

The only one that actually has no option for this strategy is Necromancer.

Pop DS and hit #3.

I dont see why people are having so much difficulty fighting these karka, or maybe they’re just too used to the regular Orr mob mentality – “oh i’ll just stand in front of the mob and autoattack”.

1. Use your terrain wisely:
As often as I can, I exploit the terrain. There are rocks around, so I aggro A (not a few, that would be foolish) karka. When it winds up to shoot those water jets, I get behind the rocks and its attack gets obstructed by the rocks. Problem solved, ANY class can do this.

2. Attack/Back-up/Dodge wisely:
Use a ranged weapon if you want to last longer/take less hits. Aggro the karka, make it spit kitten at you – but as it’s winding up, back off/dodge backwards so you’re out of range. I think that spit range is around 900.

3. Kite like there’s no tomorrow.

People shouldnt think that one weapon setup can fit all situations. There will be times you change weapons, change utilities, change tactics, just like how you have different setups for PvE and PvP/WvW usually. This IS the time.

getzzzonked.7609:

If it wasn’t Fiesbert (OP) saying this I’d totally scream troll, but this dude has provided a lot of theorycrafting and help to the Necro community in the way of getting to the bottom of bugs, researching base weapon damages and helping players understand Necros.

On that basis, I look forward to seeing the video dude. Sounds very interesting.

I agree, I believe that for someone who has studied the Necromancer profession so in-depthly, he knows what he’s talking about.

30 points in soul reaping and plague signet.
use of staff, and probably scepter / warhorn
4 sources of cc are probably staff 3, scepter 2, warhorn 5 and DS 2

I believe CCs are more of Daze, Stun, Knock Down etc. That said, the 4 sources could be Staff 5, Warhorn 1, DS3 and the Flesh Golem.

sorrow.2364:

The final solution to every Necro problems.

Curses: + power + Condition Damage
Spite: + precision + critical damage
Death Magic: + toughness + condition duration
Blood Magic: + vitality + healing power
Soul Reaping: + LF pool + boon duration

Let all traits work and we’ll finally see a viable Necro.

From your solution, I only see ONE type of Necro coming about. If I had such a distribution, I would go 30/0/30/0/10, but it would just be a power-conditionomancer.

Reasoning:
1. There’s a recent post talking about toughness or vitality – I would go more toughness since we already have the highest base HP pool.
2. Going toughness also increases condition duration.
3. Power and condition damage together – who wouldnt want that?

Rather OP IMO. The last ten points.. Spite for the burst DPS people, Blood Magic for the tank-lovin’ people, Soul Reaping for the rest.

Where are the other builds (Minion Master)? Do enlighten me because I don’t see it.

I have to agree with Hackks. I can see the developer’s intention behind putting Precision and Condition Damage on the same trait line.

1. More chance to proc additional bleeds from Barbed Precision (how weak it is now is a separate issue) and Sigil of Earth.
2. Higher critical chance means our direct damage attacks are 50%. So we have strong conditions and OK direct damage, I’m not complaining.
3. If you spec for some DS too, you get to stick around longer to see your target actually bleed, plus doing more OK damage from Life Blast and Life Transfer.

A recommendation too – not everyone thinks that precision should go with critical damage (although that’s the first thing to come to mind), so don’t post a suggestion for change that you think will benefit ‘ALL’ Necromancers. Not targeting anyone in particular, just being fair to everyone.

One last thing, I’m sure that the class will be a lot more enjoyable once the Jagged Horror issue and the bugs are fixed.

I would agree with the OP that the profession ISNT under performing. I believe that being Necro just requires a bit more finesse. I would suggest those who think Necros are bad to stop playing Necro and let those who can/want to find a way play it instead.

Some comments I have on complaints on this thread:
1. DS fills slowly: You need to spec for DS. We’re already one of the highest Vitality professions, to give DS (essentially another health bar) a high recharge would make Necro broken.
2. Life Buffs: We have DS. To have high Vit, DS AND life buffs?!?! Other professions would complain and get Necros nerfed. I think the current setup is good.

I like being the underdog. I like a challenge. If the class is too easy to play, or if the builds are generic, where’s the fun in it?