Guild Wars 2

Tman.6349:

I would like to see F2-F4 added to the their as ‘stolen item slots’ and for steal to immediately go into cooldown while adding the stolen skill to the next slot. This would allow thieves to use their stolen skills in a more opportunistic fashion and get rid of the need to waste a ‘currently useless’ stolen skill just to access their CLASS MECHANIC once again. I think this would be a fair balance with the mechanics of the other classes and also make the thief steal more user friendly as well as making the use of it more strategic. Perhaps adding a 1-2 second global cool down on the f2-f4 stolen skills to avoid some spamming abuse that I could imagine. This really wouldn’t be hard to implement and would make stealing much more viable IMO.

Would certainly be a start. Atleast you would be able to set something up like as a condi build, you could save gunk and whirling axe and get some confusion out there or save consume ecto for when you fight someone with a lot off cc and hold onto steal for other purposes. Technically you can atm, but its not at all practical lining it up, would be better off trying to get 15 stacks of torment on your own.

It kind of bothers me that none of the stolen skills count as a bundle (because it doesn’t replace weapon skills) yet we have a master trait granting bonus bundle dmg. Why? Would be nice to see crap like that actually grant some bonus effect to using stolen skills. Just like how mesmers can trait to have their clones apply conditions when they explode on top of their original attacks. Making something like that however would be either really tricky or only be self inflicted because some stolen skills are defensive while others are offensive.

Interceptor.2653:

Better question is: Why don’t you tell us why you find it acceptable [..]

No. Steal has worked this way since release, and my argument is that it’s the status quo. If you don’t like it, the onus is on you to come up with a reason as to why it should change. I will ignore any and all attempts to deflect this back on to me.

Except steal cooldown was reduced by 10 seconds a long time ago. It certainly opened up some new builds, but it didn’t help the builds that had no steal related traits to begin with. It was still the same gap closer/random skill it was before.

I believe it should change because of what thief is forced to deal with isn’t beneficial on a build to build basis. Other professions have either multiple profession skills, can choose their profession skill, or both. They aren’t subject to 1 mechanic on it’s own, they have options and that’s without any traits allocated into them. I also stated earlier the pro’s and con’s of various stolen skills and how it isn’t universal. This isn’t some stone writing tome that all should bow to, this is the point of a thread. To discuss, and you saying everything is greener on my side of the pond isn’t at all comforting nor progressive. “Deal with it” is not a response, and that’s all I’m getting from each post you make.

Xyonon.3987:

Hi thiefs! I just managed to reach lv80 yesterday and now I need some answers from more expirienced thief players.

• the build
  What is a good fotm / dungeon build? At the moment I run 25/30/15/0/0. Traited vulnerability on crit, damag with daggers, vita based on precision, pistol dmg, +20% damage against <50% HP mobs aswell cleanse on stealth.
  Is this good enough? Any must have traits??

• the weapons
  It seems like DD/SP is the best in general, DD/PP for single target bosses but I rarely use DP/PD or SD and the shortbow seems to be bad too :s Any combinations I missed?

• the skills
  Can’t decide between stealth heal and signet to heal. Also wtf is wrong with this new healing skill? It heals less than the stealth heal on a longer cd without stealth nor regeneration… wtf??
  Utility Skills seem bad at thief. I mostly run signets and sometimes this sexy cloak skill, projectile absob wall and the blinkblink stunbreaker with a huge cd if required. But all the other skills seem to be very bad. Am I right? :o

• Sword + Pistol 3 very op or bugged??
  It says I stun the enemy and then go frenzy with many hits on cleave. Sounds great but why the hell do I allways get invulnerability when I use it!? It’s like Blurred Frenzy of the Mesmer! Is that a bug? Cuz i just can spam it 4 times and kill most mobs without caring to dodge.

Thanks alot thief friends! I hope I get some answers ^^ greez

Fractals doesn’t have 1 set build, you always have to adapt. Instead of looking at 1 good build, look at 1 good adjustable build. Things like venom share + BV come in handy for some bosses for example. You should look at major traits when building and see what things come in handy for the various fractal encounters. If you’ve done fractals enough you will know what you’re looking for. I run 0/30/30/0/10. I can swap to venom share, I can swap between thrill of the crime and flanking strikes, I can swap between hidden thief in the underwater fractal (low water stealth access), more condi removal, more initiative, w/e I may need. Same with CS traits, I can swap to pistol mastery for ranged bosses and concealed defeat for the fire shaman, I find it very flexible for my needs.

Have all weapons, 2 pistols, 2 daggers, sword, sb. Again there is no 1 weapon set for fractals, you need to adjust.

Healing skills are the same as the first 2. I recommend using SoM if you’re going to use pistol whip (only real place I use that is in ascalon fractals added with smoke screen and BPS for the true invul). Nothing like healing up while you evade.

Pistol whip is not bugged, its a description error just like how illusionary leap -> swap is a stun breaker although not listed as such. Pistol whip in pvp is terribly weak and offers only but a rally bot. You have to sacrifice all defenses to get it to do anything significant. It’s good in pve because mobs will sit there and often don’t attack fast enough to know when they can hit you.

Chicago Jack.5647:

On D/P, its more like 1-5. Using a blind via shadowshot on a skill that overloads blinds isn’t very good. It’s more effective to interrupt it since most of the time they are channeled skills. Also, interrupting heals is pretty critical to down someone as fast as possible. It’s a setup that forces people to think about what the other person is doing in order to be effective. You can gank people who are already fighting someone real easy, but in a fight where people know you’re there interrupts on heals are pretty critical to down someone fast. It’s why I love D/P: It’s the closest thing I’ve seen in this game that resembles an R/Mo – an incredibly skilled build.

You’re right though. Perma-stealth teefs via 5, 2, 2, 2, 2 are pretty boring.

Well I guess I misplaced #4’s use, its very useful but in very limited ways. It’s meant to interrupt not control or evade as much as blinding does. I just love #3 because its unblockable and a much more reliable gap closer than #2 and still hits rather hard (not as hard as #2 but more reliable, if you know what I mean). You can’t hs out of a ring of warding, or past a spectral wall, or ele wall. Plus a built in blind, its just a lot of fun to use. I used to like #3 on s/d but since it’s history seems to be further depleted from various nerfs I tend to avoid it at all costs. Headshot is great but its something you really have to look for otherwise it’s entirely wasteful. Only time I use #5 on d/p is when coupled with blinding powder to get more than enough stealth time to escape a fight or recover rq or to stealth an ally for a long time to rez em.

strange thing is you can’t use racial elites in spvp/tpvp, so why worry about their usefulness? It’s not like your team can win because someone brought an asuran and they bunkered a point in a golem suit (which btw lowers your survivability drastically), its mostly for pve uses where you can goof off. Yet most racial elites are horrible, period. You can’t finish your personal story or do some quest line in your home city to improve them, its kitten from the start to end. Really saddening to even have racial utility/healing/elite skills with such little use.

Dee Jay.2460:

I used to play S/D for a long time and still do. But it’s been feeling more and more lackluster by the day.

I should really give D/P a try but that build is even glassier. I actually liked S/D because it wasn’t entirely about bursting people down and instead allowed you to show some skill.

But if you only have one role to fill in combat you might as well fill it right.

1. on d/p is an incredible skill. I don’t even use #6+#2 to spam stealth, as its overused and quite honestly ineffective against people with half a brain. Its all about the #1-3, and its hella fun. I’d give s/d a try if I didn’t watch it crumble to pieces over the last 7 or so months.

Incurafy.6329:

Mosharn.8357:

NinjaEd.3946:

Watch out, next body shot is going to be nerfed because it has too many effects. After that backstab is going to turn into heal stab and you heal the enemy for striking their back. Maybe we should just get a pointy stick and stay in SoAB because people can’t seem to live with thief anymore unless it turns into easy mode for a 3yr old.

isnt it already easy mode for a 3 year old. I havent played my thief in months and was easily killing people with an outdated build. It dosent take much to kill as a thief just 5 and 1 and here and there a heal and a basilisk venom.

Truly thou hath mastered the way of the Shadow, teach us your ways O Grandmaster so that we too may striketh fear unto the heart of thy foe!

I feel like he’s referring to those “outnumbered” videos where a thief 1vX and wins.

If he is, you should know that the people he fought were complete bafoons and had no idea what they were doing. It was like watching a predator stalk a newborn prey. Not to mention the occasional uplevel or even the kind that sat dead still and waited for him to reappear….

Dancing dagger is also a 100% combo finisher, and if you’re aware of your friendly fields, can have its uses whether you be d/d or p/d (condi). I know the post is about s/d but just putting out its other uses. Also I believe even the bounces have 100% combo finisher on them so kudos if you got 2 next to an good DoT field.

Another thing is if you have IS on cooldown, and have no other means to catch up to an opponent to keep dealing damage, the cripple helps slow that gap. Whether it be to finish them off as Arganthium stated or to simply catch up, its got its use. I wouldn’t use dancing dagger for anything but utility purposes, it hits like a wet noodle even in zerker gear.

From what I recall on sword/dagger

-Buff to #3, now it is a 2 part skill with the 2nd part stealing 2 boons (YEA!)

-Nerf to #2, no longer breaks stun (was op as hell, I can’t argue with that)

-Nerf to #3, now LS costs 2 initiative to justify the 2 boons stolen. (Ok, I suppose. Not a big deal tbh)

-Nerf to #3 now only steals one boon. Continues to cost 2 initiative for LS (umm…)

-Nerf to #2, now has a cast time. Illusionary leap/swap for mesmers remain intact (…….new build time, AGAIN).

End result? It had its time, now its just to dance with your enemy and hope they slip up.

“To grenth with thieves, them and their evasion techniques make me leap off cliffs all the time. I wish they couldn’t do damage while evading, then I would be totally fine. "

(person walks into room and whispers into 3yr olds ear)

“Wait they die in seconds when locked down?! Wish I knew that earlier”

(Davy jones walks into room)

“NOW ye got 2 wishes left!”

(scene)

Karolis.4261:

F2 skill :
Stalk in shadows: enters indefinite stealth mode. Cannot use any skills, utillities. Any action will cause revealed.
1 skill when under effect of stalk in shadows: Reveal yourself. Leaves indefinite stealth mode and causes 3s of revealed.

I wouldn’t want to follow any trend that other MMO’s used. Perma stealth is not fun and certainly out of place in a fast paced game like gw2 spvp/tpvp. Granted ppl can still spam stealth and have ways to maintain it, but they also don’t really do much harm by the time they decide to show themselves.

Watch out, next body shot is going to be nerfed because it has too many effects. After that backstab is going to turn into heal stab and you heal the enemy for striking their back. Maybe we should just get a pointy stick and stay in SoAB because people can’t seem to live with thief anymore unless it turns into easy mode for a 3yr old.

Feline grace- returns 15% endurance on dodge

Vigor- 100% endurance recharge rate

Thief gets feline grace, and 15 second vigor IF steal makes it. Aside from stealth and dodges, they don’t have other ways of damage mitigation. Mug is the only burst heal and it’s tied to a 21.5-35 second cooldown which also will not work if it misses.

Guardian can maintain PERMA vigor, they wear heavy armor and their healing power scales rather nicely, and have several burst heals.

Now, dodging negates all damage and therefore is on par so this isn’t me saying thief can’t last in a fight. But guardian can dodge just as much with a lesser investment and still maintain their natural tank feel. Guardian share the lowest health pool with thief yet they can soak up, recover, and negate damage a lot better. Aegis, shield counters, regeneration, protection, vigor (can trait to heal on those dodges too). Unless its s/tpvp where guardian may mess with some zerker set, they aren’t easy to kill and can ruin a thief’s day if they think to hastily. SImple retaliation and a d/X thief will want nothing to do with that guardian unless they plan to get themselves killed.

Burn virtue is meh, unless you trait for it then it becomes something more enjoyable.

Regen virtue is a quick little heal if needed or a simple regen. Even at 84 health per second, that means something when you have a large amount of armor. It’s passive, so you can’t remove that regen only hinder its effectiveness with poison.

Aegis every 40 seconds (naturally dodge 1 hit at the start of a fight), and an active aegis. Say you see a warrior ready eviscerate, or kill shot and you can’t dodge. Pop that up, and forget about it. Even Mesmer’s illusionary leap-> swap immobilize can be negated, or a necro’s immobilize, it has endless uses for those skills that can be seen from a mile away.

Keep in mind, that’s the base of it. Guardian won’t burst you down and hop into stealth, but they can still kill ya, and they can survive just as good, just in a different manner. Thief isn’t in a horrible state atm but they aren’t sitting at the top of the pedestal in pve, wvw, or s/tpvp, not even close.

@Travlane, I think removing the break stun aspect and just making steal provide a passive init regen to an active SS would be more than enough. Initiative is universal, so if said thief isn’t interesting in a gap closer/stolen skill they can just hold up their weapon skills. I’d be all for making steal break stun since that’s something we generally lack but I think only 2 professions get that luxury (Mesmer invulnerable sorta works since you can negate all damage for those few seconds they’re CC, and engineer can choose slick shoes to get a 45 second stun breaker belt skill).

Most people don’t understand shadow’s refuge and continue to attack in it. It’s very rare to see someone playing it smart. Also many people run in and out of the circle, thinking they can just soak up stealth and move on. Clearly it backfires when they are the only player being targeted and melt in seconds but hey, they had it coming. Thief is so rare in dungeons that when they see a thief put up a wall or stealth they squeal with excitement, “WHAT IS THAT????”. In spvp its just a trash fest so don’t expect any real competence from your team aside from zerging.

Interceptor, you seem to have it out for thieves on your agenda rather than seeing the picture painted before you. This isn’t about guardian’s being stomped by class X or elementalists having too many skills or they should have weapon swap(not that you mentioned that just displaying the misdirection), its not what this is about.

Also I agree with arrow on the fact that something like steal not being universal is wrong. Profession mechanics no matter how small they may be, should at their base be useful. Even if its somewhat situational, it should be beneficial to the profession not the build whether it be chosen or having multiple profession skills to choose from.

We can hit hard, but have you seen recent guardian builds in spvp/tpvp? They can hit like a truck and if planned right, without any hint of it incoming (group fights, ambush). Guardian may not have the on-command cc thief has (little though) or spammable teleports but you’re comparing 2 completely different classes based on playstyle not effectiveness in combat. From what I’m seeing you put a guardian and a thief in a race and said it was op for the thief to win (btw warrior would win if they were lined up). Point is you’re not looking at effective profession mechanics, something you cannot necessarily swap out. I never said that the classes were balanced or unbalanced atm(its changed a lot recently), that’s hardly my position to judge but as far as profession skills go (F1-F4) thief has it the worst imo.

Does that make thief as a whole worse than guardian? Hard to say, both have ways of dealing with one another. There are good guardians out there that can blow up zerker thieves at any time if careless mistakes are made.

Is guardian GS pull stronger than scorpion wire? Who cares, that’s a skill you selected and can be swapped. If one is better than the other than there lies an issue but that’s not my concern atm. My problems lie in base steal which unless traited isn’t all that great while other professions don’t have that issue.

(And we may beat guardian in DoT conditions, but don’t think for a second that we are actually strong at condi builds. Condi thief is in a bad state, but again not my concern in this here thread. Please keep comments directed at profession skills balance, 1 step at a time now).

Interceptor.2653:

Guardians pay for their Virtues by being tossed into the bottom rung of health pools, in spite of their role as a heavy armor frontliner. Virtue of Resolve’s sustain combined with the Aegis from Justice, is literally the reason for this particular configuration. That’s the price of being good out of the box.

It’s 2014 now, and it’s time to stop making direct cross-class comparisons. Steal may be problematic, but it not because of what some other class got. Personally, I think that Steal is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

True, but thief also shares the same life pool tier and has medium armor, and much less regen/burst heals. Their best heals are withdraw and shadow’s rejuvenation and that hardly makes up for aegis and constant regen/vigor. With a 30 point investment thief can barely maintain perma vigor assuming steal never missed but ppl are human, and they will from time to time. Guardian and Mesmer only require a 5 point investment to get the same thing and unless you get chain cc, you aren’t likely to miss that crit. Add boon duration and its even easier to keep it up.

If by daze you mean basilik venom, no it does not stack only resets the counter to 1.5 seconds.

As for the skelk venom, I’m not sure but granted its a unique mechanic to thief I’d hope it comes from us rather than their own.

Bunker’s seem to come in all shapes and sizes. Some rely on boons like regen vigor or protection, some control you and unless you’re careful can beat you to a pulp. Some just recover really really well and unless interrupted you won’t surpass burst heals like that.

That said I don’t think 30 into CS is the go-to for countering bunkers, some of it comes down to other builds like boon stealing/removing, quick on-command control (sleight of hand, headshot).

For example fighting a ranger who relies on kiting and trolls potion, if you can interrupt that potion they really don’t go far after that. Guardian or ele or engi keeping up regen and vigor to outlast you, you can burst them and get it over with (although in some cases kinda risky) or you can take those things off and play with their toys.

I don’t play too much tpvp (despise solo queue, no group yet) but from testing lobbies, wvw and spvp I’ve taken my time to study the builds I fight, spectator mode mixed with actually finding them and fighting them. Thief can still pull off good dps in s/tpvp without CS. Its nothing like 7-10k BS but its doable in a place where foods/oils/certain runes/sigils aren’t accessible.

Auesis.7301:

The notion that we would ever get a buff, ever. Ha.

Let alone a condition buff hahha

They should do away with improvisation in DA and add a trait to apply burn to nearby foes when entering stealth (ICD 10 seconds, level 1 burn for 2 seconds?).

That or bump the duration of torment applied from shadow strike to last longer.

Or make sneak attack bleeds last much, much longer. It’s soo much work trying to maintain lethal stacks of DoT with condi thief, it makes me /cry when I pretend to fight ele or guardian with their absurd condition removal.

It means if all 5 of those shots hit, it will be 5 bleeds each lasting 4 seconds. You can miss 1 and it will be 4 bleeds lasting 4 seconds each, so on and so fourth.

It’s a pretty lame skill imo for how little it does but atm, that’s what it does.

Padrion.7382:

NinjaEd.3946:

I’d disagree.
[…]
-Warrior can get either conditions, raw dps, or finishers/fields.
[…]

Warriors need a proper build to utilize burst skills well. Even then they are still kind of meh on some weapons (e.g. great sword). Certain builds even press you to not use them but keep your adrenaline bar full instead.

In the worst case steal is still a gap closer which is kind of redundant for thiefs but never disadvantageous. I do think however, it should have its cooldown reduced and some traits worked in by default like putting you in stealth or strip boons from target.

They don’t need any investment to make use of combo fields/finishers. SKull crack requires no investment to still stun them for 3 seconds (full adrenaline ofc), the sword burst skill just requires timing, not investment into sword or burst traits because immobilize has uses for anyone, earthshaker is a blast and aoe stun, and so on and so fourth.

They don’t need to invest into Discipline or strength or any mastery just to utilize those things and more importantly, it’s adaptive because the bursts skill is based on weapon choice. They aren’t going to pick up rifle and get some condition damage burst skill, or with axe. Only burst skill that isn’t the greatest I’d say is GS but at full charge that’s a long lasting fury, more than 10 seconds (base cooldown of burst skills). If you don’t care for shouts and still need fury without a 30 point investment (fury on immobilize, immobilize on cripple traits) you have that option so its got its place still.

I never quite understood tow line. It puts you in a more vulnerable state than it should, no evading, no boons or w/e, its a self inflicted pull lol.

I know those traits are good, my spvp build is 10/0/15/15/30 (as much steal related traits I can get without sacrificing my damage entirely) and it does wonders. My other build however which uses no steal related traits, is hesitant to use that skill for anything but a gap closer. A really long cooldown gap closer.

One day all the useless traits for thief, ranger, guardian, and the other 5 will be fixed. For now, assassin’s reward and hard to catch remain a pile of steaming junk to me. As does assassin’s retreat, and improvisation, and potent poison, and patience, and instinctual response, and long reach. Just to name a few.

ipan.4356:

It would be so much better if it were an interrupt or a boon stealer.

it does, except you must trait either 20 points into trickery for the boon stealer, or 30 for the daze. I wouldn’t count it as reasonable but heck, what do I know?

As long as there are new players who are aware of these forums and post their sob stories, yes there will always be nerfs. Question isn’t if we can survive more nerfs as much as when this will happen. Maybe they’ll redo some things along the road and “change” rather than flat “nerf” kind of what the dec 10th patch did but that’s a far fetched dream at the rate people shed tears when they get ganked for roaming in wvw.

Although true, VIking Jorun, it still doesn’t disregard the concern of stolen skills impact on thief as a whole. If you run say p/d condi build, and you are up against a power or bunker warrior, whirling axe does you no good. Even if you happen to have sb on to throw down a poison field to combo with the whirl, it isn’t nearly as effective as the field itself because you are a sitting duck until the skill wears off (no #3 to jump out or evade. Yes you can evade in it but you have to have endurance remember). Maybe stolen skills need reworking but I think reworking 8 skills is a lot more work than reworking steal to be more global for thief and less build centric. The traits for steal are mostly good (except improvisation… ), but you should never be forced to spec into (a) profession skill(s) just to make good use of it.

Interceptor, you forgot the lack of control thief gets over most professions. Dancing in stealth in spvp doesn’t get you far, you can’t cap in stealth and you cannot deal direct damage in it like mesmers, its only there to throw off the enemy so you can plan the next attack or to recover. Scorpion wire is rather buggy, and often doesn’t pull the entire distance, as much as I like using it the bug is almost too much to want to deal with sometimes. Headshot is short lasting like sleight of hand, and a projectile which can be blocked or reflected, w/e. Sword stealth attack is not all that great aside from interrupting stomps but you have to be set up for that it isn’t always soo sweet.

SO, as far as what thief has to work with all the time (didn’t include stolen skills that cc), sleight of hand hardly makes up for it. It’s got a lot of uses that can really change the fight but keep in mind its a 30 point investment into a trait line that grants steal recharge rate and condition damage. Compared to warrior stun skills or even guardian walls/rings, it isn’t the most incredible thing. Also skills that block (not aegis) still avoid sleight of hand, like shelter as does evading, blind, invulnerability, etc. Its a great trait but it isn’t OP in anyway when you look at the profession who is using it (Severely overrated).

Initiative replaces cooldowns, but doesn’t replace their power. Someone already posted earlier about the damage coeficients of various skills compared to thief.

Also I’d like put out a fun fact for how many weapon skills each profession has as a counter argument to the weapon selection you mentioned.(this will not list aa as more than 1 skill, and it won’t list any skill with 2 or more parts as more than 1, i.e Infiltrator’s strike. Profession skills will count since for some classes, can be chosen.)
-Warrior has 46 land weapon skills
-Thief has 24 land skills
-Ranger has 30 land skills
-Guardian has 33 land skills
-Engineer has 41 land skills (including mobile offence kits)
-elementalist has 60 land skills, this of course is limited to some degree since they cannot weapon swap, but attunement swap changes the behavior of the weapon and has 4 categories. I didn’t include attunement swapping as a skill since it doesn’t, on its own, do anything.
-Mesmer has 28 land skills and is the only class that can deal direct damage in stealth due to clones.
-Necromancer has 22 land skills (shockingly low).

Our #3 and stealth attacks arn’t better than other peoples’ weapon selection, its a solution to low weapon choice. Its how thief is unique at making builds but it isn’t giving us more builds than other professions.

Zelulose.8695:

NinjaEd.3946:

The issue is, that’s a build. Not a profession mechanic, and those traits you listed are heavy investments.

Steal on its own, without any investment is really really weak. It offers little utility for a long cd and its not 100% guaranteed steal due to reasons listed earlier in this thread. Are some stolen skills quite awesome? Absolutely hands down. I love consume ectoplasm, and in small group fights the water field is incredible at making my thief feel like a group player and not some selfish outcast. But it’s not always set up like that.

There are a ton of traits to make steal better, just like there are traits to boost pets’ performance, or shatter skills to have additional effects, or virtues, or burst skills ,etc. That’s not the point, the point is when untraited other people can still have some controlled benefit to their build regardless of how they spec, while thief doesn’t. I gata say pets untraited are rather sad but you can still choose what pet skill to get and for the most part, there is at least 1 skill for any type of play style. I’m not trying to paint some ugly picture, I’m comparing one stripped down class mechanic to the rest, something we don’t have a choice but to equip.

Any profession skill without traits is weak.

I’d disagree.
-Mesmer’s get 4, 2 of which can help any build of theirs.
-Guardian gets 3 passives/actives, the active aegis is significant if you can time it well.
-Ranger can get cc, combo fields, boons, condi clearing, etc.
-Engineer can get skills depending on their skill selection, and overall help the build significantly.
-Warrior can get either conditions, raw dps, or finishers/fields.
-Necro can get insta fear to avoid burst, #5 for aoe cc, and #4 to stay alive. Also having a 2nd health bar is quite helpful at avoiding burst.
-Ele gets massive utility. Whether it be healing/condi removal, control, dps, combo fields/finishers that work well together, its there.

Thief gets a 900 gap closer (if within range, otherwise goes on short cooldown) with a chance at gaining a new skill in it’s place depending on what they steal from.

Sadly people still die to hs spamming. Even on my zerker thief I can turn around, and kill them and continue on my duel. If they manage to escape (5 minor trait in SA) they SR and wait to heal up. Its a shame, but I don’t know if increasing the base cost is reasonable, as hs has its true uses other than a spam button.

Maybe for each consecutive cast, it cost 1 initiative more, and this counter resets if HS isn’t casted for 4 seconds or something. Maintain it’s intended purpose as a leap finisher/gap closer/finisher, while dealing with the fools who think they are actually doing good when they spam #2 on a ele who is 20% health.

I’m a unique butterfly with 10/0/15/15/30. 30 into trickery is for a number of reasons. Extra initiative always helps stay on top of your defence/offence trade offs, the insta-cast daze can interrupt healing skills which is always good in pvp, steal 2 boons and gain vigor, a really good trio for thieves to have.

I wish it didn’t have condition damage in trickery but hey, not all things work out perfectly.

Most of those videos, are against fairly bad (or I guess I should say new) players, who can’t quite grasp stealth counters just yet. Its no body’s fault, there really isn’t a session in the game that teaches you those things, you kind of have to learn them overtime. But like Hayashi said, its not 1v3 its 1v1 3 times. Thief power builds can spike real hard and if they play it smart can pick off weak people first and just dance around against beefy targets.

The issue is, that’s a build. Not a profession mechanic, and those traits you listed are heavy investments.

Steal on its own, without any investment is really really weak. It offers little utility for a long cd and its not 100% guaranteed steal due to reasons listed earlier in this thread. Are some stolen skills quite awesome? Absolutely hands down. I love consume ectoplasm, and in small group fights the water field is incredible at making my thief feel like a group player and not some selfish outcast. But it’s not always set up like that.

There are a ton of traits to make steal better, just like there are traits to boost pets’ performance, or shatter skills to have additional effects, or virtues, or burst skills ,etc. That’s not the point, the point is when untraited other people can still have some controlled benefit to their build regardless of how they spec, while thief doesn’t. I gata say pets untraited are rather sad but you can still choose what pet skill to get and for the most part, there is at least 1 skill for any type of play style. I’m not trying to paint some ugly picture, I’m comparing one stripped down class mechanic to the rest, something we don’t have a choice but to equip.

Zelulose.8695:

To the OP, If you want steal can daze, poison, blind, stealth, steal boons, grant vigor, deal damage, and heal you on a 21 second CD.

You didn’t read the op i’m afraid. I’m well aware of steal traits, its not the intent of this thread to ask for more or less of those.

Top tier or not, you can’t say everyone is going to that option of using gunk. What if the thief has d/p and basilik venom or thieves guild? Headshot spam is a total waste of intiative, and #3 is only gana get 1 stack of confusion off before it moves you. If your goal was to surpress their condition removal so things like bleed can get through, then yes it works for condi builds which I already stated. But etheral fields are the last thing I care to get near my power build, because there are much more solid options. Whenever i see a potential group fight I avoid the stealing the engineer at all costs, because it simple isn’t helping me as much doing what I’m there for, picking off the weak ones with heavy hits. Wasting my time with a DoT that isn’t going to deal much damage 10 stacks or not just isn’t my priority.

Dancing dagger is great for picking off stragglers and using fields like ice, or static field, conditions that help me either stay on top of the enemy or hurt them more. Ill accept ur advice but not at all considering stepping into it, as it’d be a waste of time imho.

Docherty.8372:

NinjaEd.3946:

Confusion on a power build is useless.

No, it isn’t. Confusion is never, ever, useless. Five Dancing Daggers (optimal) is good for 20 shared stacks with bounces, you think that’s of no value in a group fight? I dropped 9 stacks on a Ranger and his pet yesterday, should have seen him melt – I don’t even need the damage, I just need him to stop pressing buttons for a few seconds

So you’re a power build, great – that means you’ve got extra duration, bonus.

I’m trying to uplift you guys, give you an education in advanced Thievery, but fine, don’t use it – just throw it away, then come to the forum and whine about you got beat by some condi-spam Engi (ask them how much they enjoy having 5+ stacks while a full-DPS Thief is wailing on them) – I’m sure that’s a much better option.

p.s. you can totally still move while applying your finishers, the projectiles only have to travel through the gunk, not originate in it – use your noggin.

So you killed someone who didn’t understand confusion mechanics, that doesn’t make throw gunk 100% effective. Also you had to use an elite skill in combo with it to make it all all worthwhile. Most ranger use some ranged weapon so if they were honestly unable to react to confusion stacking and reflection then I can’t say ur method is reliable. My noggin is set on good players, not people who think 65 dmg on skill activation perstack is overwhelming in a 1v2+ (pets dont count as 2). Dagger storm is a great skill, but throw gunk isn’t always useful and somewhat disappointing when acquired. Also not all power builds go 10 into da, even if mug is a good trait, there are small variations in power thieves if you move away from hero builds.

Zero Day.2594:

Steal is enough because we have stealth.
/thread

(sarcasm…)
Also, could be better, but not fully complaining…

Mesmer also has stealth^^

Docherty.8372:

Nothing wrong with Toss Gunk – throw it at your feet and spam Dancing Dagger (Daggerstorm/Sneak Attack works good too) – bootleg AoE confusion, very powerful in 2v1 or in team fights on a point. Coincidentally (or not), pretty good to impede Engineer kit-spam.

Confusion on a power build is useless. Also dagger storm hits really odd and therefore most people can just move away and avoid a lot of attacks. You also risk being targeted by ground targeted AoE attacks, because you will be seen standing there. It’s not the best combo against people who are at this point well aware of profession mechanics.

I was asked a couple months ago to get my guild a thief build that can burst down, and sneak around the enemy back line (wvw). I’ve looked around, asked some people I’ve played with before who know thief, and looked online (sadly, don’t judge). I’ve come across, between youtube and these forums, a guy by the name of Yishis(correct my spelling if you must).

I’ve watched his videos carefully, without any knowledge of his build other than that he is a power build. As good as he may play it (although tbh, his enemies are complete bafoons) he messes up. He is only human, but the reason I bring this up is WHY he messed up. He plans his attacks in stealth, and chooses who to steal from, the whole idea behind steal. Well numerous times, he was either missing steal, missing the stolen skill, getting himself near death, etc etc. Bottom line, it helped in some places, and hurt in others. That’s not how a professions skill should behave, especially if its something you can never swap out like a weapon set or a pet. I can understand you missing skill X because you sat in a blind field, but I can’t understand the concept when you enter a 2v1 and naturally you avoid stealing the engineer because for a power build, it doesn’t help you at all. What if its a 1v1 and you steal that engineer on a power build? For me, I just toss that gunk because it will only hurt my build more than help (trying to enter stealth, condition dmg is low, etc).,

With steal, the fight constantly evolves and you never truly get a set up you can count on. It’s a cool mechanic but alone, imo, its not up to par.

frans.8092:

NinjaEd.3946:

P/d which is slow, and short lasting. Also not much of a variety of conditions making condition removals not only prioritize, but easily pick off your main dps. Good condition builds don’t rely on 1 or 2 DoT’s, and sadly thief has no choice.

You could run sigils of doom (as p/d+d/d or dual p/d), for poison, and the 15 point minor in Deadly Arts for weakness. You have vulnerability and immobilize on #2, torment on the #3, criple on #4 and vulnerability on #5. Who’s saying there are few conditions for a P/D? And that is without even adding venoms.

P/D is a very durable and reliable condition build for Wvw. It’s a bit too safe and slow for general PvE though, but caltrops is very effective against npc and the build will let you solo many champs.

Venoms are not as reliable, because blind/evade/invulnerable/block negates it and consumes a charge, and its a rather long cd for just conditions. Caltrops are great, but unless your fighting someone with tunnel vision they aren’t going to dance with you in a puddle of metal, the red circle is rather obvious. Immobilize is 1 second, hardly breaching 2 seconds if you wana go insane with condition duration, 15 into DA for p/d means the only source of poison you get is stealing, and that’s not frequent for p/d. Vulnerability lasts a few seconds, and the torment is short lasting as well even with good condition duration gear. I’ve messed with p/d and I’m not main condi thief, so it could be my order was wrong but I wasn’t exactly overwhelming people. Even with dodging in their face, #3, steal, #3, #4 through combo fields (100% finisher) and constant use of caltrops both on dodge and utility + stealth skill I wasn’t melting things even with 1200 condition damage and my aa bleed lasting almost 6 seconds. It’s just too slow imo, the aa needs to be sped up and the stealth attack needs to last much longer.

If bleeds are to be the main source of dps on p/d, don’t make it a ridiculous investment just to pull off mediocre dmg that engi or ele can pull off in a fraction of the time with burn. Against profesions or builds that lack good condi clearing, yes p/d works fairly well and keeps the enemy guessing. But in pvp most people have that, because they go into the mists already knowing the basic needs of a well structured build.

The biggest issues I see with condition thief is
-Natural condition duration of skills. This is expected because most of our skills are technically spammable, but bleeds need to be stacked high to deal any good dmg and if they’re wearing off b4 then it defeats the purpose.
-crutches to maintain good condition stacking, like caltrops. Some classes can get conditions from various places, and use their utility skills as stun breakers, condition removers, boon access, w/e. Thief is almost obligated to use caltrops to help keep bleeds up.

I wish thief could only do damage when out of combat. Why should they be able to crit for 8k?

Also they can only move out of stealth, otherwise all teleports and movement skills are disabled and you’re rooted.

vincecontix.1264:

just make it steal one boon in addition to what it already does but its still pretty decent tbh. Only the ele skill sucks. Engi gunk isn’t the best but it can be useful esp if you run p/d condi build.

Keep in mind unless they have a condition remover at their disposal, its a 10 second chill. To most builds, 1 condition is meh but if caught off guard 10 seconds of them barely moving is quite significant. Still if I’m 1v1 an ele, the last thing I want to waste my time doing is putting a condition on them that will get removed in seconds so I see your point from a certain light.

Stealing 1 boon naturally would be nice, we do lack significant boon access like most other professions get.

There are 2 condition weapon types.

P/d which is slow, and short lasting. Also not much of a variety of conditions making condition removals not only prioritize, but easily pick off your main dps. Good condition builds don’t rely on 1 or 2 DoT’s, and sadly thief has no choice.

D/d which is predictable, and the evade is half the duration of the attack, making it rather clumsy in terms of staying afloat. It applies a great bleed stack/duration but its so silly watching thieves try it, as the actual attack moves only about 300-400 units and doesn’t stay on top of your target, you have to position yourself to get all 3 hits off.

It’s a sad state, but that’s where thief condition builds rest atm. Until something gets changed soon I would avoid using them, other condition builds do much better with more reward.

Full zerker is pretty bad, considering fractals scale (naturally) and in the end, you will die before you can dish out any real dps. Remember, you can crit for 14k all you want, if you’re dead you’re doing 0 dps. CS trait line is real good for numerous reasons, and between runes and 300 + precision and food, you can almost put some cavaliar or valk stats in there, boost your survival without any huge sacrifice to dps.

Full zerker is maybe good up to about 15-20. After that you need to start adjusting your playstyle to be less risky. Blind fields/skills, quick recovery, more ranged less melee.

On my thief, I have 2600 armor, 110% crit dmg and 17k hp. I have everything but my armor ascended and I do fairly well. Not to say I never die or mess up, but I don’t go down in 2-3 hits unless its the ascalon fractal.

Could be along the lines of that, where they add onto steal without adding more skills to manage.

@Rin, a lot of those things are basic, you see a warrior pop shield stance or a guardian use shelter you shouldn’t steal unless its to get away from someone else, cuz it won’t do much good. I wouldn’t say the base of steal is better than some warrior burst skills, because their build will revolve around those burst skills. They don’t have to trait for burst skills and they can already choose how their burst skill affects their build, and in some cases its a large part of their build.

I will say, for the short time being since it keeps being brought up, that steal traits are great. You get a wide variety of things to do with it, and it is rewarding. But not everyone goes into trickery for bountiful theft, or sleight of hand, or into DA for mug, not all builds can or want to spec into certain trait lines for these things, its kind of a crutch to force people to do so. That’s not to say we deserve all these traits naturally, that would be broken as all hell, but there should be more than just a shadowstep and a stolen skill that may or may not help you at all.

Either a rework of steal or a 2nd profession skill that’s either universal or adjustable to how you build without hindering yourself with major traits just to make a class mechanic, which you are stuck with, beneficial. I like the stealth skills, those you can control based on weapon choice and they play a large role in most builds. Steal on the other hand you either invest into or its quite clunky and kind of just left alone for some.

Warrior gets 2 profession skills with base 10 second cooldowns and can be improved with more adrenaline, naturally. Keep in mind base weapon swap is 10 seconds so at base, they can have always have 1 ready when they weapon swap.

Guardian gets 3 passives/actives. Little burn passive never hurt, passive regen although base is low, isn’t bad nor is the small burst heal. Active aegis is useful anywhere.

Ranger gets 2 profession skills. Although it can be argued that the pet is a crutch, there are builds that can avoid its use and just have the pet as another skill. Things from regen, protection, fear, condi clearing, you name it. It’s not the best system but you atleast have a choice to some extent.

Engineer gets 4 skills based on their healing/utility skill choice. Now they don’t have weapon swap, and forcing anyone to use something like a kit imo is a crutch, but its quite clear that some kits are really good based on their popularity. So in the end they still get 2 weapons, 0 cd on swap btw, and get 4 skills with some surprisingly good benefits. They don’t need to trait into the toolbelt to make some of those skills very useful for themselves or their team.

Mesmer gets 4 shatter skills. Now they may not be condition based, but daze is universal, and distortion is as well when you get locked down. If they are condition based, they can still pop confusion and hurt you big time. Not to mention these are all separate cooldowns. Clone production isn’t hard either, some can go above and beyond the clone army and you will never stop seeing them.

Necro gets a 2nd life bar, as well kitten new skills all of which are rather universal. Torment + immobilize fits both power and condi builds, chill is movement as well as gap closer, #1 hits hard for power builds, 4 keeps you in it longer and hits rather hard and #3 is instant cast and can be used in so many ways. It’s almost like stealth, because you can wait for other cooldowns to come off while in this form and last a long time depending on your set up.

Ele gets 2 more weapon sets than anyone else (except maybe engi if they go full kits XD). To some it’s just more cooldowns, but really its more than that. It’s either burst, its condition application, its recovery, control, you name it. Even though you can’t swap out of that dingy staff or d/d, you get a ton of utility from attunements that work together (combo fields+finishers). I can’t say I’ve ever been bursted by a staff ele, but they have their ways of staying afloat and in group fights they sure can turn the tide.

Thief gets a shadowstep and a stolen skill based on what they hit and if they hit it. It isn’t useless, but it isn’t 100% useful for thief builds as a whole, and that bothers me.

Rin.1046:

Steal is good as it is and if used correctly can really help you in a fight. And when traited, well, it is an uber skill. My steal does the following:

Every 21.5 seconds I can:
– Shadow step to my target
– Stealth for 3 seconds
– Gain regen from stealthing
– Remove a condition from stealthing
– Poison the target for 11 seconds
– Give myself and my allies Vigor, Fury, Might and Swiftness for 10 seconds
– Steal 2 boons from my target
– Deal approx 2k damage
– Heal nearly 2k health
– Gain a random (often useful) skill
– Daze my target for 1 second
– Can be used while stunned (so can daze the stunner to prevent them from doing the post stun rotation)

So while steal on it’s own it only ok, it can be made into a build defining skill. I also feel that initiative is a class mechanic worth noting. While our skills are balance around it and technically should be no more powerful that other professions, it does give us more flexibility and mistake recovery than other professions.

Personally, without traits, I feel steal is a better mechanic that the warrior’s burst skill. Of course the warrior compensates for this with a wide variety of weapons.

Personally, I feel steal and initiative are enough.

The post is about steal, not the traits that buff steal. People can say attunement swapping is bleh and then you get all these boons/effects for simply swapping to them when traited.

Also, initative isn’t really all the special. You can spam a skill, yippee, but initiative doesn’t make you a god, the skills are balanced around being spammable. Kinda the reason why #2 on pistol only immobilizes for 1 second vs most skills which do for 3. Also why headshot is a .25 second daze vs skills like ranger sb #5 that is 1 second daze or stun or any warrior stun skill. Their are weaker because they can be spammed (except bs), so you really aren’t making up for anything.

In response to the whirlwind, yeah if you’re running a condi spec that whirlwind isn’t going to hit hard. In fact you’ll just be putting yourself at a more vulnerable spot because the dmg will be low enough for some builds to just sit there and melee you down. On a condi build often I just toss this skill because waiting for a ranged build to come along is just going to waste my time, I’d rather use steal on something else that will help me. For spvp:

Ice shard stab- universal although if you 1v1 an ele chill will come off rather quick on them anyways, better saved for builds that can’t clear conditions like a veteran karka.

Mace head crack- good for stopping a heal in melee range, or a stomp/raise. Most guardian run shelter however and you will never stop their heal anyways unless you get LS to work off basilik venom and they don’t already have stability. Best saved for group fights or classes with easy to stop healing skills.

Blinding tuft- universal, stealth and thief go together like norn’s and alcohol.

Skull fear- great aoe cc but really really easy to interrupt or negate. Most necro have some form of blind or fear (F1 or #5 on staff). Unless hopping into a group fight and you pop stealth and use it, hard to land against good players.

Throw gunk- useless unless you are a condi spec. Even with scorpion wire mixed IS, you only get a few conditions on them and they don’t last real long or deal any significant damage. Also the direct damage really hurts builds who rely on stealth, which are a lot.

Whirling Axe- great for power builds, but many professions can soak up enough damage and simply control you and beat you to a pulp. You also aren’t immune to ground targeted aoe. For thief to do significant damage with this has to invest a lot into dps traits/gear, meaning they are easier to kill. Often I only use this skill if I can put down a smoke field to avoid that to an extent because they can still just walk off the field. As for condi builds, really no use aside from running away from a ranged class as to reflect their projectiles.

Consume Ectoplasm- universal, boons help no matter what shape or size.

Healing seed- universal, good skill to heal back up. Either HS or CB will boost you back up, and it also gives something all thief need, more condi clearing.

But keep in mind, block, invulnerable, and blind will cause steal to miss and you get nothing then. I’m referring to steal alone, and not with buffs for reasons stated earlier.

Steal is single target and predetermined on what you will get when you steal from enemy X or Y. That is really unique, yes, but I don’t think it is up to par when compared to what other professions can do without traits, and even with traits. Not all stolen skills are universal for thief builds, and some get in the way that you just toss them to get back to steal. It’s not a rewarding system as it may seem.

Trip wire: 30 second cooldown for a single target knockdown?…..

Ambush: ok but the thief you spawn is random and also dies really easily.

Shadow trap: Has its uses but ultimately not my favorite stun breaker.

Needle trap: Does anyone even bother with this? SB alone can do what needle trap does and better.

I’ve been following thief since launch and to this day, it saddens me to see how little flavor has been added to our profession. They fix something, they add something cool followed by numerous nerfs, we really haven’t advanced outside of poking in and out of stealth with burst dmg and whimsy condition builds.

Guardian has it worst surprisingly, but our condition builds aren’t all that great. I’ve watched healing signet outheal the thief p/d aa with some stealth skills thrown in. Not to say healing signet is at all fair, but the fact that a regen can negate an entire build says something. Everyone else (except guard) gets long lasting and multiple conditions, that’s the whole point of a condition build. Not 1 or 2 spammable skills putting short lasting conditions, there needs to be variety or condition removal/regen just makes you obsolete.

On a side note: Has anyone used a strictly condition based build against an ele running diamond skin lately? How was it? Did you waste your time like I did?

Impact.2780:

Stealing skills can be useful in PvP.

The heal from a ranger is a water field, useful to your team, and heart seeker in it a few times will get you a fair bit of health back. Warrior’s whirling axes is good too; it’s not bad damage, it’s AoE and costs no initiative. It’s helped me finish someone off on a number of occasions – damaging the downed target and the would-be reviver either takes it too or stops reviving. Fear from a necro has its uses, throw gunk not so much… 4 second chaos aura but requires you to have condition damage and to get hit directly to be of any benefit. I usually use the guard stolen skill while fighting the guard, same with the ele skill. Personally I discard throw gunk from engineer either in the fight, when out of combat, or when I want to use steal again.

That being said, it is a rather limited class mechanic. I haven’t liked any of the builds I’ve tested around steal. Some extra utility would be nice. In fact, speaking of extra utility, I’d just be happy with reliable access to perm swiftness like most other classes, not to mention we’re the quick footed acrobatic assassin class.. if any class should be able to get it, it should be thief. Then I could happily drop signet of shadows.

Some of the stolen skills are good, but like I said not all builds can work off whirlwind or throw gunk. Gunk btw ticks direct damage, so it breaks stealth which hurts, whirlwind on a condi build is well… bad.

Not all the skills are universal and they aren’t that easy to control either. You can’t run into a 3v1 and expect to get blinding tuft or consume ecto, class X may not be there and those 3 ppl may have nothing you can use without getting yourself killed.

Arganthium.5638:

I actually think that Steal and initiative are sufficient class mechanics. Neither of them is particularly revolutionary (Steal especially), but they give thieves a unique flavor that you really can’t get close to with any other class.

I have no doubts of thief profession mechanics not being unique, the question is whether or not steal is enough.

In the end, more skills is better especially if they naturally have some added benefit to it.

Take for example ranger, they only really get 1 profession skill but that skill can be chosen from various pets to add something to any of their builds. Even if the pet may not play a huge role in their build, they can still bring some condi clearing, or regen, protection, fear, etc. Now take thief, what if none of their traits work on steal? Its just a stolen skill which depending on what you fight, may or may not help you at all. You can choose who to steal from, but you can’t choose what you steal (which is fine). Point being you don’t get to set yourself up with steal, while the other professions can build themselves on their profession skills without any spec. When you start adding bonus effects to these things it gets to be drastically different which is why I disregard them in this post.

Imho, I think thief deserves at least F2 for some utility.

Whether it be tied to the type of healing skill you use.
HiS=drop smoke field 3 seconds. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Withdraw=aoe swiftness 8 seconds. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Skelk venom=regen while a venom active. Passive
SoM= critical hits heal while on cooldown(weak heal like vampiric). Passive
OR
Shadow Armor=evade the next 2 attacks. Duration 3 seconds. Cooldown 45 seconds.

Idk if any more offence is needed, as we can pull that off fairly well except maybe condition builds. But we lack defence outside stealth as well as group utility. Not saying we don’t have any group build, but its such a heavy investment when other people can do it without special traits.

I’ve seen a lot of people asking for that, as well as making stolen skills their own F-2+ skill so that steal can be used without simply tossing said stolen skill.

I think venoms have their place as a utility/healing skill its just they require soo much of an investment you kinda feel like you’re just an aura for your team, instead of a support class. That’s just me though.