Guild Wars 2

Chaosky.5276:

Ralathar.7236:

Staff is obviously not intended to be a 1 vs 1 weapon. It can function as a 1 vs 1 weapon but is weaker than other options. However it also has much more AOE power. You can’t have both. I’m sorry it doesn’t sPVP well, there are two other thirds of the game it does fine in though.

I carry scepter/dagger around for when I expect small scale engagements in PVP but I’ve held my own well with staff in numerous 1 vs 1 situations I’ve encountered. Yes someone specialized in 1 vs 1 will beat me most likely if I’m caught in staff, but I also contribute far more to team fighting than them.

1: Why do eles have to be the only class that can’t select an AoE/support option without giving up solo capability? (You can heal through damage with a staff, but you’re not going to kill anyone decent.)

2: We don’t have any other weapon that is effective at range (unless you consider taking the scepter and spamming air #1 and #2 with Berserker’s gear “effective”), so what sense would it make to intentionally design the staff to be terrible 1v1?

1. Because it’s the only class with anything even approaching that much AOE capability, much less from range. AOE damage of significant degrees, alot of AOE CC, AOE healing. No other class even comes close to the amount of AOE ele’s have.

2. Your right, we have middling single target effectiveness at range with staff and scepter, but incredible effectiveness up close and great AOE power.

Overall we have greater capabilities than all other classes in select areas, so we give up a little capability in a few areas. It’s not like we are overly bad at range either. We are not, we are just moderate at range instead of good or great. We certainly are more capable than Guardian at range by far, so I’d say we are not the only class.

The problem isn’t that staff cannot be made to be better at 1 vs 1 mind you. The problem is that if staff becomes good at 1 vs 1 without giving anything up staff will undeniably become overpowered. If you nerf other aspects to give it 1 vs 1 power you have just screwed over countless people for your own personal desires and that is quite frankly selfish and hypocritical. They matter as much as you after all.

BlackBeard.2873:

Ralathar.7236:

tl;dr Same story different day. Play OP build/class, get nerfed, cry on the forums, play new OP buid/class, rinse, repeat. Same as it has been for the last 10+ years, only people of this generation are more entitled than ever.

There is only one problem with your assessment: The CLASS was never OP, and our bunker BUILD was only OP in one game-type: conquest pvp, where bunkering is one of the best strategies. So the entire ele CLASS had 1 spec that was a little bit too good at not dying while supporting their team, doing decent damage, and could run if need be. I personally don’t care if toned down the survivabilty a bit (less cleanse, nerf Mist Form), or even made the running worse by a bit (shorter RtL distance, affected by cripples/chills). The worst thing is that they hurt other game-modes where bunkers aren’t all that useful (WvW and PvE), destroyed roaming playstyles (which were not OP), and had collateral damage to lots of other ele builds (staff, zerkers) that were already hanging by a thread. Its not that elementalists are whining they lost their super-do-it-all build, they are complaining b/c they hurt everything else so much more to get only a minor reduction in the efficacy of the awesome build we had. All that, and the areas that needed buffs (that were in no-way a risk for destabilizing the meta: staff skills, fire and air traits, conjures) still receive no attention.

Do you know how many times I’ve seen variations of that argument over10+ years and more than 10+ MMORPG’s? From the FOTM class in Dark Age of Camelot, to Fire Tanks in old School City of Hero’s, to Stunlock Rogues in WOW, to Clerics in Rift, and so many more.

Every class that has been OP or considered OP has made this argument. Quite frankly people are full of poo and they know it lol.

Example: Your statement of WvW. Bunkers are alive and well in WvW and still incredibly effective there when used well. The nerfs barely affected WvW and now bunkers can be caught occasionally instead of almost never.

Reason: You are focused on sPVP and pretend to have considerable knowledge beyond your area of expertise because you let your personal bias interfere.

My personal statement: Pretty much every Ele build is incredibly effective in WvW when used right. Ele’s are far from weak in any way in WvW. This is an area I can rightly claim a fair amount of expertise in with. I can build bunker, glass, hybrid, power, condition, both, healing/support, cc build, chill build, auramancer, etc on any weapon combo and do well. Ele’s are my main and I have experimented with them quite thoroughly in WvW and I bear the fruit of hundreds of hours of doing so.

RTL barely touched my viability in any build, the condition cleansing was a sPVP only change. I never relied on mist form as anything other than emergency damage mitigation in select situations because relying on it for more than that is bad play that exposes you unnecessarily to danger.

When you rely on select situational skills/builds due to their incredible power you actually limit your own capabilities when you can accomplish the same things with good play. When those same things get nerfed because they get the benefits of good play without the need to truly perform it is no surprise. This is the perspective of someone who has seen the balance wheel in action for his entire MMORPG career across numerous games.

Agriope.4523:

Oh, I can play this game too!
Ain’t no party like a bullkitten party, ‘cause a bullkitten party don’t stop.

Also, should be fixed with: “Making a general statement to talk about something in general [is actually a terrible way to make a point as anyone who has any degree of social engagement capability will be able to refute said general statement based on the fact that it is unspecific and therefore open to singular point debates].”

Stop trying to forum-fight me based on conjecture, just accept that some AR people whom you are referring to as “unfortunate Anvil Rockers”:

1. Don’t give a kitten about points.
2. Look for skirmish and skilled fights and aren’t interested in unskilled winning through 11212211122111111 keys.
3. Because of 1 & 2, look down on said “alliance” as it is a way for the poorly-skilled to try and band up to (poorly) fight a largely more-skilled opponent.
4. Wish the “alliance” would not exist and instead wish that the larger guilds heavily involved in WvW would learn their classes better and mechanics associated with them (or if they already know, teach their guildmates).

PS. Thanks for the fun, Fraeg.9837!

I see you didn’t read as I acknowledged those very things in the post you quoted.

I’ll bold it for you:

If I meant that ALL of AR did X, Y, or Z, you would have a point. But I understand that some will always buck whatever trend is happening, be it karma train zerg, alliance, or whatever.

Perhaps in the future you could at least fully read the point you wish to refute before attempting to refute it?

Tetra Bug.7134:

Amen

That goes for the me-too crowd too.

Staff is obviously not intended to be a 1 vs 1 weapon. It can function as a 1 vs 1 weapon but is weaker than other options. However it also has much more AOE power. You can’t have both. I’m sorry it doesn’t sPVP well, there are two other thirds of the game it does fine in though.

I carry scepter/dagger around for when I expect small scale engagements in PVP but I’ve held my own well with staff in numerous 1 vs 1 situations I’ve encountered. Yes someone specialized in 1 vs 1 will beat me most likely if I’m caught in staff, but I also contribute far more to team fighting than them.

As an experienced MMORPG player of 10+ years having spent 5 of that in Dark Age of Camelot and 1 of that in Warhammer Online I can confidently state my opinion that Elementalists are the worst profession boards right now and that they are completely overreacting.

People on these boards are generally very selfish and do not properly consider balance as a whole. They also make wide sweeping statements about ele’s in general when in reality they are only speaking of just one fraction of the game. (I’m looking at you sPVP players)

Currently Ele’s are fun and viable in PVE and WvW in all builds though scepter needs a little love. They are also fairly viable in sPVP but no longer quite as good as they were.

BUT people had their super strong candy class and now they lost it. So now they cry doom and gloom and tantrum. Same old story, different game. The same people will then flock to another build/class that is OP or as close to it as possible and then repeat this whole scenario when that gets nerfed too.

Honestly, people should know that the strongest builds out there are nerf bait by now, and in truth they do. They don’t care though because they have tied their desire to own people to their ability to enjoy the game. Trying to explain to them to play the game for fun is like speaking another language.

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tl;dr Same story different day. Play OP build/class, get nerfed, cry on the forums, play new OP buid/class, rinse, repeat. Same as it has been for the last 10+ years, only people of this generation are more entitled than ever.

Archer.1658:

Ok, lets examine this closer shall we? The fact that people on our server have to put in grueling hours just to defend against this 2v1, obviously proves that our population is not as big as people claim and is therefore been exaggerated and used as an excuse.

Logical fallacy, while people DID kick up their game a little people that put in large amounts of hours are people who already put in large amounts of hours. Most people with more RL obligations can’t really free up much time. Most people putting in large amounts of hours have relatively few RL obligations. So no, it’s not that much of a change. The committed people with alot of spare time were already putting in long hours. People who have a radical time investment differential are the exceptions, not the rule. Furthermore this is a dual logical fallacy because AR and BP have also kicked up their game a bit and are putting in longer hours.

It’s really easy to see Ebay has a big population advantage. It’s shown every week and it’s shown all the more right now.

I don’t care if you’ve been on ebay since beta, I’ve been in WvW since beta and I’ll tell you right now, we have become the better server through hard work and communication. You give them respect for what? The ability to somewhat hold an alliance because individually they have failed to take us on? The difference is people in t4 aren’t going to go around making silly alliances.

We WERE the better server via hard work, communication, and yes population. However over the weekend AR and BP actually outplayed us and out-coordinated us up until end of the day Sunday when they fell off a noticeable amount. I still think Ebay has better individual player skill atm, but they have shown better teamwork and coordination than us so far this matchup. Without a doubt.

I give them respect for the amount of improvement in their game they made and the coordination they were using. Same as I give respect to my own server when it does so. I respect all competitors I feel deserve it instead of attempting to be king kitten. I don’t expect them to individually take us on. That’s not fair even if they equaled us 100% in play because they plainly do not have equivalent population. If either side did we would be losing badly atm.

I won’t say what T4 would or would not do. I am not a prophet, mind reader, or psychic. However I will say that most servers would at least consider an alliance if placed in as terrible of a position for a long time.

Agriope.4523:

Ralathar.7236:

If you want to continue having more success than “Run around with everyone we have and karma train” you’ll back the alliance.

Right here is where you lost it. Generalizing about how people play is generally a bad way to make your point.

I’m gonna ignore the rest of your post since it has nothing to do with me or my statement and is in reality a chip on your shoulder.

Making a general statement to talk about something in general is actually a great way to make a point if it is accurate. If I meant that ALL of AR did X, Y, or Z, you would have a point. But I understand that some will always buck whatever trend is happening, be it karma train zerg, alliance, or whatever.

Playing semantics to attempt to invalidate a point is a logical fallacy. However the success of this tactic is highly dependent on the audience and your personal presenation and charisma as you are depending on presenting a convincing statement/opinion and not something you can legitimately back up with fact.

This means by the same token I realize my own statement can be construed as an opinion, however the presence of a consistent super zerg of AR at the expense of the rest of a zone/other bl’s in the past is something that people can verify via their own memories. I give the reason of lack of population and the need of a large zerg to fight others as my reasoning for this fact, but I could be wrong. It could just be karma training. Either way the same result is achieved of little lasting effect and alot of temporary camp/tower flipping for many matchups in a row now.

Archer.1658:

You are really really stupid. We don’t hold 500+ ppt overnight, because if we did, they wouldn’t be within the 20k lead, that was on reset night which created the lead. In fact, we pushed the lead back to 20k today, were it was 17-18k earlier this morning. So we are doing exceptionally well for being 2v1’d (not that I care). I don’t have respect for you sir, and If there was friendly fire on my server, I’d make you ragequit this game faster than kalkz does when he fails to take a keep.

I put it entirely more hours this weekend than was healthy, easily in excess of 30 hours. I went to sleep shortly before the +695 cap that night and woke up when we still had over +450. Just saying we got our entire lead in one night when we had no opposition because they were asleep and we PVDoored. Because that is what happened. They actually closed the gap since then.

You can back pat yourself all you want. I’ve been here since beta and have seen Ebay server through times when we had less manpower and skill than either of the two servers we face now. Don’t get aggressive towards me because I’m being honest and fair while giving respect where it is due. If we can’t face our foes honestly without lying to ourselves here what makes you think we can handle T4?

Dark Age of Camelot had moveable siege. It was super slow but it worked for what was needed. Basically small positioning changes. I don’t see why this couldn’t work here.

Agriope.4523:

Not everyone in Anvil Rock subscribes to this “alliance” bullkitten. Let’s not generalize, thanks.

Unfortunate for those Anvil Rockers. From what I’ve seen Ebay has the server population to make a very close match out of a 2 vs 1. When you infight we take advantage of it and exploit the openings and destroy both of you score wise.

If you want to continue having more success than “Run around with everyone we have and karma train” you’ll back the alliance. You don’t really have the manpower not to back it without being suicidal honestly. Neither side does vs Ehmry, we are a good bit larger than both of you.

Archer.1658:

SO even though BP and AR are supposedly double teaming us, we are still winning? In addition, I get even more loot bags now since they aren’t hiding? I consider this a win-win and an embarrassment for them. /Peace’d

The only reason we are winning right now is because of that single night of 695 point capping when no BP or AR were on. 500+ every 15 minutes for like 8 hours, you do the math. Oh wait, I will: 500*4 = 2k per hour, 8 hours. 16k. Actually a good bit higher than that since we ended up 695 pointing them.

Seem a little familiar to how far we are ahead?

Right now AR and BP are matching us in points. They actually beat us in points during our primetime on a weekend two nights in a row up until very late night and early morning. As of now they are within 20k, which means they already caught up several thousand points.

Personally I am rooting for you guys AR and BP. You are working hard and winning a tough battle through coordination and teamwork against a foes strong enough to stand toe to toe with both of you. I only have respect for that. I do not have respect for any Ebayers with a big head because we have a server big enough to match the population of our two tier mates right now.

I will fight you with everything I have, but I will also root for you. If you win, I’ll know you worked really hard to do so and did so with play far superior to your normal level of play. I can only have respect for that.

Ebay kinda deserves it atm too. I warned them Saturday and they laughed and insulted yall. Then you kicked their teeth in lol. Keep up the hard work.

Poor useless quaggies cry. At least the nodes are good for leveling alts i guess.

Windwalker.2047:

What are you smoking how is water arrow ever viable in any situation,ever?
I agree with the rest,i use conjures in pve quite a bit since i am bored with the lack of variety of our weapon skills,but they need some more love.

Water arrow would be viable for healing if it had a larger raidus. Currently 120 is too small and misses even melee alot. 180 would make it at least a reliable constant heal on melee. Combine that with your other water abilities and soothing mist and you can get a good level of healing.

The single target attack is respectable, the frost fan is really good used right, and the AOE damage is really good honestly. 5 is interesting because it stacks chill well with frost fan and makes a decent stun, but landing it against other players requires some finesse in WvW and will be difficult or impossible in sPVP.

DoomMagick.5963:

You realize a mortars already have the burn feature…just change shells.

I want something that buffs that.

Two big things I want for Mortars.

1. Responsiveness: I want Mortars to be as responsive as Trebs. Let them turn while shots are reloading. Also, make the shots when switching ammo as fluid as Trebs. Currently if you switch ammo and fire immediately there is like a 2 second delay. This is not the case for trebs.

2. Masteries: I want burn, I want AOE size, I want defense while on it. Give me juicyness!!

Master of Timespace.2548:

So many noobs in this thread. Seriously learn to count to 4 and no more c&d chaining. D;
I think it’s entirely fine that a good thief can give something to think for all these zombies running in zergs. In that particular video they seem a lot dumber than AI.

It’s not that simple. The reason it works is that those idiots in the video don’t know what’s going on. If you try to do this against a guild group you are dead in 1 second.

If the thief is dead in 1 second they are glass cannon and don’t know what they are doing. We have moves you can preemptively use that removes conditions, break stuns, AND teleport us a long distance after all.

Please, the group will just blob and spam aoe.

So to counter 5 thieves 15 or more people are supposed to circle wagons, huddle in fear, and spam AOE’s on themselves? LOL how could you even think this is a defense of thieves instead of an indicator there is a problem? Especially since you could still hit them through this safely.

WvW has never meant to be very balanced, let alone esport.

They changed their mind on that. For proof see any of the WvW nerfs and the video admissions that they will be having 3 rulests of balance now.

Pestilence.3184:

Archer.1658:

Pestilence.3184:

i honestly think if you took away REKZ, ebay are on par with AR and BP, REKZ are your difference makers.

Making excuses again are we? As GL of BURN you make your guild look like a bunch of crybabies man.

Its an observation from an opposing servers view of things……. in almost every encounter i have in WVW im hit by REKZ not by the other major guilds yeah there will be lik 2-3 others dotted around REKZ but its REKZ none the less…. Hence i feel they are your DIFFERENCE makers…
I’d love to have guys like REKZ watching my back, they are really high coordinated with builds that compliment a team and not just individuals (just about ALL bunkers mind you)

wow you guys are so quick to make fun of everything but your selves lol no ones QQ ing archer you moron, it must really bother you that some one on an opposing server is GIVING PRAISE to a single guild on your server… AAAWWWW is some one feeling left out? do you need teddy bear cuddles?

Ya know, some of us happen to work with Rekz and in some cases even have people on hand with ties to Rekz. Rekz is a pretty good guild that knows it’s open field fighting but other people provide them both the intel and the anvil for them to hammer the enemy against.

It’s true that good guilds can do alot on their own. However they are still pretty impotent without the support that others regularly provide. For example Rekz is great for handling enemy zergs, but other guilds take alot more towers and everything. In contrast you have PK which is a bit more general purpose. We have Rekz-like moments, but we also do alot more havoc squad and territory capturing/defenses. I’m not in position to speak for the focus of other guilds. Then you add the general pugs roaming around which are like bits of putty that fill in the nooks and cracks and crevices. (Sometimes poorly sometimes well).

I believe this is called teamwork in some languages.

Aberrant.6749:

Any decent group of 5 could take on the people in that video. In a well skilled 5v5 you wouldn’t win with just a team of thieves though…

In sPVP no, in WvW yes. Basically unless the thieves misplay really badly the most you will ever kill is 2. Really for them to lose 1 requires them to misplay. WvW isn’t sPVP that forces you to play in a certain way. Open field combat serves only the thieves side.

Whether or not the 5 skilled people would kill that group depends alot on group composition and how good the players are vs things they cannot see. Alot of people do not understand how to counter thieves as they are the 1 class you have to play to understand how to counter.

Actually according to Anet in a recent video the counter to a good thief is “move on” lol. Acknowledging that a good thief can tie up countless players for long periods of time and you were not going to kill them.

rhodoc.2381:

Conjureds need more revamp/rework on mechanic than buffs or tweaks.

Actually they are not too far off from viable. With the changes I’ve listed I’m sure they could become viable in at least WvW and PVE. sPVP will always be it’s own very select beast.

Earth Shield:

Add condition damage to the stats buffs. I’ll be adding bleeds to this weapon because earth is about bleeds AND defense. This lacks bleeds and even the vestiges of damage.

Skill #1 – Shield Smack: Add 2 seconds of bleeding and 2 seconds of weakness. Lower the direct damage slightly but leave the overall damage higher than it is by a good bit. This skill needs some serious help. It’s slower and lower damage than all of the others with no saving grace. It’s melee range to boot. The bleed helps the damage and provides a use for condition builds. The weakness fits with the defensive nature and must be spammed to be effective so it’s not OP.

Skill #2 – Crippling Shield: Add 4 seconds of bleeding. This adds a bit of damage, helps make an earth weapon useful for condition builds, and gives you a reason to use it outside of the cripple.

Skill #3 – Magnetic Surge: Add 3 seconds of reflection. This is intended to be a gap close that disables and positions you for your PBAOE pull in skill. As is it’s definitely lackluster with low damage and range to achieve a daze. Adding reflection keeps in theme with magnetic powers reflecting projectiles and gives you a little bit of help survive closing the gap you desperately need to close to make use of this conjured weapon.

Skill #4 – Magnetic Shield: Fine as is. Alternatively you can give the reflection to this skill instead of Magnetic surge, but I felt staggering them was a bit better.

Skill #5 – Fortify: – Add 1 second of bleed damage every time someone attempts to strike you. This is a nice little invulnerability but it forces you to be immobile and channel it. Even considering the synergy with the other skills this is underwhelming. Considering the limitations a damage return wouldn’t be horrendous and would again make this an EARTH weapon which synergizes with condition damage.

As you can see shield is in desperate need of help to be a viable weapon. Hopefully all or at least most of these changes will be considered.

Fiery Greatsword:

Skill #2 – Fiery Eruption – This should gain a short lived (2 second) fire combo field. It only makes sense for this skill and it would allow a little synergy including using Fiery Whirl on it.

Fiery Greatsword is in a good place, the Fiery Eruption fire combo field is more of a small thematic touch than anything. My change to the burning fire trait would also leave condition damage users slightly less hosed on this compared to power damage users as well.

In Closing:
Well that’s it. Some fairly significant overall changes, minor tweaks to each weapon, and major help for Earth Shield. I feel like conjured weapons are close to being viable and this would accomplish that. Let me know what you think.

I’ve played around with conjures since beta. Right now I think conjured weapons still need a little help so I’ve come up with a few changes. Most of the big changes are overall issues with conjured weapons but there are a few weapon specific tweaks as well. Especially Earth Shield.

Overall Changes:

Remove the charge system and time limit from the normal conjured weapons completely. None of them are versatile enough or powerful enough to need this limitation. You place them, you use a few skills, you drop them. Because doing anything else actually makes you less effective. Keep this limitation on Fiery Great Sword however because the great sword DOES need this limitation.

Switch the http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conjurer and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire trait order. This makes Conjurer a 10 point trait and Burning Fire a 20 point trait. Make Conjurer reduce the cooldowns of all conjures by 20% except Fiery Greatsword which gets 10 extra charges AND 20% reduced cooldown.

Modify the Burning fire to give 1 second of burning on all Lava Axe and Greatsword attacks that currently don’t cause burning. For multi-hit attacks this only procs on the first hit per person for balance purposes. This also helps condition builds use them viably.

Make sure that any channels conjured weapons use apply http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Focus trait Currently I believe there are a smattering of channels not benefiting and I believe conjured channels are among these.

Remove ground targeting. Make conjured weapons placed at your feet. This is an impediment that slows down their quick use that stacks with the cast time. Elementalist are mobile and can place weapons near allies themselves if needed.

Weapon Specific:

Lava Axe

Skill #1 – Lava Axe: Give this skill a projectile finisher. It begs for it and it only makes sense.

No other changes, Lava axe is useful if a bit underwhelming. Still a solid all arounder with good combo field potential. The mentioned changes to burning fire and the projectile finisher on Lava Axe is all this weapon needs to be viable.

This would also make the fire line a bit more synergistic with having conjured weapons traits as well as Persisting Flames.

Ice Bow

Skill #1 – Water Arrow: This skill needs to heal in a 180 radius. This shares the same issue as staff water blast. The radius is too small and often you can melee an enemy without being inside the heal radius. This should be a reliable heal for people in melee range of the mob.

No other changes, Frost Bow is viable and it’s only real issue is the too small heal radius on Water Arrow.

Lightning Hammer:

Skill #4 – Lightning Storm: This skill needs a bit of a boost. It needs higher damage, a bigger radius, an added blind, etc. SOMETHING. Right now there isn’t much reason to use this skill at all instead of the auto attack.

No other changes, Lightning Hammer is viable and give a reason to actually use Lightning Storm it should be in a good place.

I made an in depth thread about it some time back. I’ll provide an updated version for more exposure. More ideas and more exposure is more better? :P

1. All of this means you have a hypothetical knoweldge of how to play stealth from playing stealth.

2. Alot of people don’t play stealth.

3. You can learn how to counter everyone else by watching and learning. You can’t watch invisible people.

4. A properly skilled thief that is well built will not die. The reason they do not control sPVP is because of the control point based nature of it makes stealth ill-suited for point control when stealth does not contest.

5. In WW without restrictions a single thief that is good is deadly, annoying, and near impossible to kill. A coordinated group of thieves however is a threat to even zergs, regularly picking off any member who is not within the main blob. A small group of thieves can mercilessly harry and considerably slow down a zerg unless they are willing to sacrifice members on a regular basis. No I do not mean glass cannon thieves unless they are REALLY GOOD.

What I don’t think people realize here:

1 thief doing this = annoying.

5 thieves doing this = broken.

That is the reality, it’s not being properly taken advantage of. If those 5 thieves intentionally targeted the few classes that could interfere with them one at a time, the rest would be easy pickins. 1 thief gets downed? He gets stealth from self/friend then teleports to the side and the others spike the guy they were targetting while everyone is distracted. What, rally, no way!.

5 thieves could easily take on that many people and get kills safely if built right. Not much the people could do about it honestly.

Furthermore I’ll especially commend AR for the complete lockdown you guys had on your home borderlands. Excellent response times all around and the use of overwhelming force against anything less of a true zerg. Made your BL rock hard to accomplish anything in. BP did a pretty good job too, but they could learn a lesson from AR in this regard. BP defended well, AR had absolutely smothering defense.

Both BP and AR have also shown more coordination, more tactics, more adaptability, and more learning than they have anytime in recent memory. Good on both of you, keep up the hard work. You are showing that you really do deserve to be our tiermates and that we really do deserve to be in this tier lol.

Very good job by both AR and BP today. Excellent coordination between the two of you kept us pinned for most of the day and we only recovered at night somewhat due to our superior night numbers.

EBG was absolutely decimated by your well timed assaults on seperate towers again and again and once both servers even both broke through their own respective water gates and assaulted our keep together. Within spitting distance of each other and yet working together instead of fighting each other.

Rather than look down on you for this I commend the teamwork between the two servers and the discipline it took to coordinate and not kill each other. Also it’s only fair considering the numerical advantage Ebay enjoys in this tier.

I just want to give props to Anvil Rock and Borlis Pass for working together. You guys are doing a pretty good job and you even seem to be starting to use better tactics and playing better.

Keep improving. Ehmry Bay has gotten a little full of itself atm and it would actually do our server good to be taken down a peg. Please keep up the pressure all week, even if you lose.

I used to think thieves were kind of imbalanced. Then I played around with them. Now I am sure that the popular specs of thieves are imbalanced. Stealth is far too easy to troll with and requires good players with specific skills and specs to counter. I do not consider the thief roflcoptering away countering him.

The fact that a great number of thieves do not even use shadow step or infiltrator’s strike shows exactly how powerful stealth is, and those moves can make a thief able to do his job without even needing stealth quite easily.

Buzzcrave.6197:

The real fix will be making the 5th skill to have higher consumption of initiative. Right now it is spammable making chaining CnD is easy even without the trait. Oh yes, same goes for pistol 5.

Don’t raise the initiative cost. Just make it cost 1-2 more initiative for each subsequent use within 10 seconds or some such. This leaves it useable as it’s original intent without letting people just chain it for days on clones, pets, elementals, NPC’s, siege, people, etc. This would display as a buff on your character.

They could use the same philosophy with permastealth builds. Stealth moves build points, attacking removes them. 3 points and you become revealed when stealth ends. 4 attacks to remove a point. Shadow Refuge adds 2 points over it’s duration, blinding powder actually removes 1 to keep it usable and not screw over the trait.

I noticed that when you capture Quaggan nodes the Quaggies that spawn are actually quite weak and the guards at the gate easily wipe them. I assume this was to balance out the power of the lightning being able to hit siege.

However I was informed recently that Quaggans no longer damage siege with their lightning, if this is the case then the Quaggans should be strong enough to kill the guards on their own to maintain their usefulness. Quaggans that cannot damage siege actually matter less than any mercenary camp in the game now because the people that must escort and protect them would be doing far more damage than any lightning.

So please, make the Quaggies strong enough to kill level 80 door guards so they can set up on their own and be worth something again.

Travlane.5948:

you have a point here… but its a tiny bit different. eles cant LITERALLY mitigate dmg and heal ALOT. thieves can do neither …however its hard to say what thieves are compensated for. thieves have great in combat mobility plus stealth. which of those covers which of these:

10.8k hp
medium armor
low boon access (no defensives)
no blocks
no invulnerabilty
lack of AOE . (yes i know cluster)

not complaining but its hard to say which comes at what price. does low hp and medium armor make up for getting invis? and does no blocks/invl/lack of aoe/no def boons make up for the mobility? hard to say

Bad choice of example, contrary to the opinion of the ele board that flips the frick out over every change, actually worse than the thief boards lol, ele survivability is going to be nerfed still.

So those boon wielding dagger bearing psychos? Expect to see more of their tears. Then again, so too will you eventually see the tears of stealth spec’d theives as they lower the stealth a bit to make room for bits of additional survivability.

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m fine with thhieves having such low hp. I’m not fine with their hp being that low but not compensated elsewhere (compared to other classes)

It’s compensated for. The difference is thieves have a more active defense style of play. Some classes have more passive defense. It’s hard to credibly complain about lack of defense when you don’t take advantage of what you have.

For example, d/d eles must actively use various skills for defense. Some of them have received nerfs and might receive more. They have lower damage than thieves for sure, and are far more predictable. Your average thief takes a few defensive skills, and yet since they are stealth related they instead use them for offense alot. This is called a tradeoff.

Meanwhile they ignore alot of other defensive options they have, even on the weapon sets they use!! This is why the insane focus on offense most thieves have ultimately ends up defeating them.

Healing via initiative and the heal roll are actually both really good. I have also played around with a shamans/clerics mix and match build and I’ll be healing 300+ from skill use. True that might not seem like very much initially, but keep in mind that it’s constant and instead of stealth I am evading alot more damage. It also turns any evasive moves into healing/evasion….which is essentially what stealth is, only I’m not disrupting my damage flow and then attempting to make up for it via stealth burst.

To be more specific in a mix of clerics and shamans gear I heal 100+ points per initiative spent.

Sebrent.3625:

Ralathar, do you find yourself targeting other Thieves more because you main a Thief and thus understand it better than any other class? This seems to be the case for me with Mesmers. Most hate fighting them, but I find it easy … though I’m sure running into Osicat would change my mind, lol.

I play everything. Key thing here is that thieves are great for downing people even in the middle of a group but have a much harder time finishing people. Stealth stomp is great for small numbers of people and specific weapons/builds. But others can pressure the thief away or force him to die for the kill, or CC him with an area CC. If you react quick enough your starting your casts while he is downing the person, specifically if the other person is decent and uses defensive or mobility abilities. If you choose the right abilities they are forced to leave them be while they get picked up. Even something seemingly harmless like frozen ground or shockwave can easily doom that thief.

Perhaps the greatest equalizing factor here is that most people play thieves in such a linear way that it is easy to predict and counter them. Find target, zero in, spike, attempt to stomp. That encompasses 95% of power thieves.

humm… are you saying thieves need a buff? :P

I’m saying that playing a power thief squishy enough to spike people picking off people in a zerg is a good way to get a trip to the waypoint if you play against good players. It’s not that you are not capable, it’s that you are incorrectly applying your strengths to the situation. You do not have the survivability to finish someone off if you have the damage to spike them right around their friends in the zerg. Not against good players.

Finishing off downed players, guarding your back line, and countering thieves stupid enough to attempt to spike your players is a much better investiture of your time.

This is not anything particularly new. This is how any reasonably balanced stealth class has always worked.

randomfightfan.4091:

What’s wrong with being a single target master that picks off a dozen people in a zerg fight while tossing out random cluster bombs in the down time?

I am sorry but if you are able to do that in a zerg vs zerg fight you need better allies and certainly better opponents. Neither are doing their job well if you have the time and leisure to do that.

Keep in mind I’m used to being a thief target as well with my main being a sheer glass full rampagers staff Ele. I’ve experienced both my share of having thieves jump me and stopping thieves attempting to jump others. As part of a team we watch over each other and any brazen thieves are smashed very quickly and we don’t lose many to them.

Note: I’ve been downed by such thieves quite a few times. I’ve died because of it very few times however. THAT is what teamwork does.

Additional Note: Your time would also be better spent killing already downed people. Power thieves are very good at that, it prevents rezzs and gives the team rallies. You also have the mobility to get in, slaughter them, and get out quickly. This instead of soloing somebody on their own at the edge who’s worth was questionable to begin with.

Travlane.5948:

well considering ur about 5k higher HP …have clones as meatshields…phantasms as meat shields…..blocks…invulrnerabilty….and invis….id say no they arent :P ….a thief can always go down faster than a mesmer: FACT.

if any guardian dies in 2 secs they suck : ALSO FACT

My rational side tells me that people purporting things as fact in an aggressive and overbearing fashion normally need proof to have any sort of credibility. 5K higher base HP and the potential to absorb hits with temporary “meat bags” (that’s the word I want to use :P) does not necessarily mean they will survive longer than someone else that does not have that.

For instance, guardians have some of the best survivability in the game if they build for it. But there are a fair amount of situations other classes will easily out-survive them.

These sort of complexities is what makes balancing classes and judging class so very difficult. The reality is that each class and indeed each individual build ranges in exact theoretical capability depending on each unique situation. This is further modified up or down by the skill of the players involved on each side and indeed the builds the enemy and allied players are using.

Blanket statements are very rarely reliable statements. Please remember that in the future and also I would ask that you stop giving out blatantly incorrect information as well. You are not an expert, this is extremely clear, you are an average player at best. Please carry your discussions as such instead of making weak and untrue statements others can easily counter in the attempt to filibuster a thread with the sheer volume of verbiage you cast about seemingly without thought.

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m glad you like that build/playstyle but that isn’t for me. I like doing my own damages as well as being useful. I certainly can’t be as team supportive as you or as tanky but I can do all the damage you can do in a quarter the time. I love a game that has class and build diversity.

My main is a sheer glass staff ele in full rampagers with my own custom build. I get called on pretty frequently so I definitely whet my appetite for damage often. Thief is great for havoc groups and single target spiking when it comes to damage. But as all single target damage builds are thief is underwhelming in a zerg as a single target damage build.

S/D and soldiers lets me roam with or without the zerg and be effective. Will I be powning solo nooblets silly enough to be running solo when they are plainly not capable of it? Nah. Will I be helping win the war? Yes. And I can peel off and join up at will for scouting, camps, defenses, zerging, dolyaks, takes, etc. My utility bar is more fluid as well.

If that is the play style you like, that is cool. I don’t look down on it at all, everyone plays to have fun. But since you extol the virtues of damage I extol my virtues and in the grand scheme of things my versatility > your single target damage.

If you are not flipping supply camps or slapping dolyaks you are quite simply being far less effective than you could otherwise be. Teamwork > solo noob killing master.

randomfightfan.4091:

Instead of putting that extra 15 into trickery (leave 5 in there cause I love 3 ini on steal), you can upgrade your deadly arts line for 150 more power, 5% dagger damage (if you’re daggers) and passive perma 10% bonus dmg (target has condition) along with weakness on poison.

Could do that or get extra points into shadow arts for more toughness, condition removal on stealth, ini on stealth – put 10 points here instead of +3 total ini and you’ll do significantly higher dps as you can easily maintain the 10% bonus dmg when ini above 6 – blind on stealth, or faster deception skills recharge. If you have 20 points into sa you also have all stealth skills lasting 1 second longer. That includes stealth you apply onto others! If you really REALLY want support, use that point to give regen every time you stealth or stealth others. It’s pretty darn good and is significantly better than 10s fury, 1 stack of might, and swiftness that others will be able to give to you at significantly lower cost.

If you’re all about dodges, 15 acrobatics and vigor on heal is AMAZING with withdraw.

I still love totc and bountiful though and am sad that they are no longer in my build.

I actually have a boon sharing support build with soldiers gear and runes of altruism I’m working on. One of the biggest things about those boons is that they are of 10 second duration base. If I build 100% supportive (which I am) I can have great survivability (ty acrobatics), apply regen to people I stealth, decent damage, and provide 100% duration buffs which is 100% fury uptime and 66% uptime on fury/swiftness/vigor. 100% uptime on might thanks to great base duration on the charr Roar racial, spiking up to 6 stacks 66% of the time. Other random boons and boon stripping on command.

It’s pretty nifty honestly and in a group environment I DOOM guardians and Bunker Ele’s.

I’ll say 2 last things:

1. Me and my guild did find out a way to definitively counter arrow carts in the current WvW environment. 100% successful. No, it does not involve using our own arrow carts.

2. No I do not believe the current iteration of arrow carts is balanced and neither does Anet. This is why they are reducing the range to roughly ballista range on the upgraded carts and lower their damage at least vs siege.

Warrior has better long range mobility, thief however has much more dynamic and versatile mobility that is very good for long range travel and far superior for constant short range mobility.

A warrior can be juked and kited or caught in short range situations, a well played thief should be able to stay in range or out of reach at will from anything but another thief. Bring utility skills into it to try and equalize the equation and thief utility skills will make the warrior utility skills look sad by comparison in terms of movement.

randomfightfan.4091:

@ Ralathar

I enjoyed reading that. It was well though out and intelligent. I also agree that steal and virtues shouldn’t be compared as they are usually used for different roles. The virtues are definitely stronger in team supporting situations but steal can be one of the best skills in the game. Someone is down, steal to the a target and burst it down super fast to rally that ally!

Thanks!!.

Only problem I have with building thief with 20 points into trickery (I’ve ran this build for a long time so I know) is that it feels like wasted traits. The worst part about it is every time I use it, the buffs are nice but I feel like it’s pointless. There’s almost always a guardian, warrior, mesmer, ranger, or ele in the group and they are able to give all the boons we give but more often and with better buffs.

While this is true, they often must give up utility skills or weapon selections for this. Keep in mind as well their limits. We give up relatively little for a good amount of support.

Elementalist: Elemental attunement is short lived in it’s 5 second duration (Save might, which is 15 seconds) and limited to a single boon per switch. Auramancers literally build their entire build to do what they do. No boon rips.

Warrior: Shout and Banner builds give up alot to get that support both in the realm of utility slots, possibly stats, and a heavier trait investment. Also, banners have their advantages but mobility is not one of them. I’ll give you that traited Warhorns are IMO OP in WvW atm. They stack far too well. For Great Justice by itself is nice, but comes at the cost of a utility slot. And neither boon rips nor has the potential buffing ability or the adaptability to meet a given situation.

Ranger: Spirits are still terrible for the most part, only real boon giving ability is via pets and the healing well. Small selection of boons and only 2 at a time from pets and requires a significant DPS sacrifice due to pet selection. Horn is decent with it’s buffs, but only decent considering you give up a weapon choice to gain slightly better than 10 trait points in trickery and definitely worse than 20 points in trickery. Also 35 second recharge. None of this boon rips either.

Mesmer: Mesmer has the capability to outboon and outboon-rip thief for sure. However this pretty much requires that they build for it. Sacrificing 1-2 utility skills, 1-2 weapon choices, and an indeterminate number of trait points. This vs 20 trait points.

Guardian: No reliable boon ripping. Definitely superior at supporting, but again they still have higher costs for achieving this.

This is especially true since our supportive abilities are in a condition line and I am a power thief.

I bountiful is an amazing trait as it rips 2 boons (not steal as the boons your team gets expire in 3s) and gives everyone vigor for 15s. It’s an amazing trait but it’s not worth 20 trait points when the other skill is a fgj, that’s on a 50% longer cd, and only 1 might stack.

Even as power thief you do get definitive and noticable damage return form 20 points into trickery. You get 3 more max initiative and 3 initiative every time you steal. That’s 6 initiative worth of damage or 3 in worst case scenarios. You also get fury (which only works on power damage), might, and swiftness which all aid in DPS. Additionally you remove boons from your enemy and gives them to you. Any protection removed is additional DPS and mitigation for you. Any might/fury removed is additional DPS and mitigation for you.

These things might not matter too much as you are jumping that upleveled engie with no buffs on, but they will matter infinitely more vs that ele, guardian, or HGH engie as these traits act as a veritable fulcrum shift when used with appropriate timing by both depriving them of their life-saving or damage-spiking buffs and giving you some pretty good buffage. As the cherry on top you can steal more often.

Oh, and you get to laugh at the specific situations this becomes extra useful like stealing stability from someone and then watching them get thrown around.

Frenk.5917:

Though I agree with OP he probably didn’t notice that all pur survivability comes from stealth. What’s our best condition removal? Stealth. What’s our best form of HP regen? Stealth. What’s our best way of regain initiative? Stealth. How can we deal more damage? Stealth.

While technically true that is bother much more counter-able and much less reliable with a far heavier investment in both trait points and utility skills than what he put forwards. His build will make you a better player to use it right. Stealth actually has the potential to make you a worse player as you lean on the power of stealth and then die so easily when caught outside of it.

All thief survivability does not come from stealth, stealth is merely on option for additional defense. Most of thief survivability comes from mobility and evasion. Stealth and his build both enhance that in different ways.

Most people don’t take advantage of the survivability options they have. Perfect examples are Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadow Step. I’ve seen precious few thieves that use it, normally when I see a thief with that buff on their bar I’m a bit more afraid of them because they are almost always way better than your typical noob roller stealth thief.

Perhaps you rely too much on CnD and this kind of thing is what naturally happens when you rely on something too much?

Also LOL @ someone coming in here claiming “I 2 vs 1 people!” right beside “My class needs buffs!!”

Travlane.5948:

i get you on some points but you say thief is in a troubling spot now and they can be easily countered bc they rely on dmg so much…… so many would disagree with you here (thief haters) …i dont.

Ironically most of this is the fault of thief players themselves. When you make a 1 trick pony build, unsurprisingly it fails when someone counters it. While thieves need a little help in this area, they don’t need too much.

But there are two things that will interfere with needed changes:

1. Alot of thieves think they should just get more without giving anything up. But that wouldn’t be balanced. If you touch base damage you need to keep high end damage balanced and thus lesser scaling to maintain the values. If you give more survivability out of stealth you might get less in stealth or less stealth. That kind of thing.

2. People don’t take advantage of what they have. Like when stealth got nerfed a little via reveal you saw some people start using shadow step extremely effectively, but most just griped or stopped playing instead of trying to adapt.

Yes warrior F mechanic isnt OP like some but u gotta compare teh cooldown times….its still better than thief bc of the attacks and also on a super short timer compared to our 45 secs.

It’s on a short timer but is also limited by adrenaline and all of them are focused on damage and maybe some CC. Steal however can be used for damage as well as a great many other things. Then you add the skills that you get from that steal and add even more things.

Also sharing fury might swiftness 1 stack each is….cool but not really a “selfless” build. those are all offensive.

Increasing your entire teams offense is definitely supportive. Swiftness is offensive and defensive both, if you do not know that, you should learn. Vigor is 100% defensive. Mug is offensive. Poison is offensive, weakness on poison is defensive. Stealth on steal is defensive. Daze on steal is both offensive and defensive. Boon sharing from boon rip is exactly how offensive or defensive you choose it to be. All boon sharing and defensive skills are definitely supportive.

The items you steal are offensive or defensive at will since you can easily choose what to steal.

Look at a guardians f1 f2 f3. pick any one of them and they do more for a group then thieves steal. not whining but there is a huge gap. i think if they do what they say and make steal a single line teleport regardless of target….it would help.

Built for support yes, a guardian’s F-Skills would be more supportive, so would the guardian. Built any other way however the Thief Steal skill could easily be more supportive if the thief was built more supportively. As well to really go that supportively the guardian must invest in multiple lines and/or stats to make that support work. Furthermore most of the buffs are on the virtue of Justice for straight damage or Aegis which has a long CD. The thief really only needs to invest in 1 line and only 20 points to get 90% of the supportive power of steal. Also the cooldowns of the virtues are 30 seconds, 60 seconds, and 90 seconds base.

This is called class variety. Thieves are leaned more offensively, guardians more defensively. Thieves have alot of advantages over guardians and vice versa. However, Virtues are not near as far ahead of the Steal skill as you might expect. To really get an idea of the power of something alot of context is involved. Not just a knee-jerk consideration.

Travlane.5948:

when i say horrendous….we have a 45 sec timer on an F mechanic that is no longer a huge dmg skill. boon ripping is never traited for as its more skill for a “lets deal dmg” kind of build even tho its in “condition” trait line. even if u steal them its a 45 sec recharge for probably …on average… a 5-6 sec boon.
2k dmg? pfft averages 800-1100 on average attack build. 2k would be full traited 10k hp kind of zerk build. might fury swift is good but again its more of a damage dealer still stuck in condi line.

Again someone is being selfish. It’s a bit weaker because it’s shared with your allies. It allows my thief to quite viably play support. With buff duration, the charr roar racial, and runes of altruism I can maintain permanent fury, and 2/3 uptime on swiftness, 6 stacks of might, and vigor on me and some allies. Plus whatever boons I steal spread to them (It’s funny to strip that other thief of his 15 stacks of might or his dagger storm stability), and more boons for me stolen from an enemy via sword/dagger.

Is it your typical damage build? Nope, I am damage/support and with wise stealing I can also provide regen via both stolen boons and F skills at will. I can also enable my team to take out problematic enemies like that guardian or ele who just lost their protection/swiftness/stability. Also makes me a better chaser for my team. The F-skills can be very nice too.

I understand that all you are worried about here is damage, but one of the prime reasons thief is in such a bad spot is because of exactly that kind of focus. This is exactly why the devs are trying to make them a more balanced class so they won’t be so easily countered.

my point on his 4k top end INSTANT dmg skill…. was that its not far of from the 6k mug dmg. but its not tweaked or downgraded…… so you cant really avoid a teleport dmg skill unless u are already mid roll :P so idk what u mean by not doing my job. nobody can respond at a -.01 sec response time.

Yeah but it ends there. That skills doesn’t do anything else and the guardian doesn’t have near the ability to escape thief does. They teleport into combat, and then they stay there. We can move in and out at will. That is a huge difference. Makes a great initiation, but remember that guardian has about the same HP and if built for damage can’t exactly take a beating. They go in to win the fight or die while a good thief lollercopters away from the lost fight.

and no matter how you look at it….added traits or not F Steal doesnt compare to any other classes F mechanics….

I’ll agree. But then I’ll also agree the same of warrior. Adrenaline moves are nice, but not up there with other F mechanics. Ranger’s is very hit and miss. Their pets are either good or worthless most of the time.

But whether our F mechanics are as good as other classes and whether thieves are good are two entirely different things. Thief is currently just fine, BUT they need more build variety. This is exactly what Anet believes too. Be patient and in time thief will be able to do more, as well as keep high damage as an option. But I highly suspect to achieve that it’ll mean less dependence on stealth and more in combat survivability.

Travlane.5948:

@Ralathar
- the only thing good about steal is the poison and positioning. the rest is horrendous.

Boon ripping and Boon sharing is suddenly horrendous? I mean you can provide 10s BASE might, fury, swiftness, and vigor to allies around you while also sharing up to two boons stolen off of the enemy. Only way I can see you calling that horrendous is if you are playing an extremely selfish build. 1 vs 1 is not the only build tyvm. Also +3 initiative on steal and 3 additional initiative with those two major traits :P.

2k dmg + 2k heal also isn’t exactly bad. The skill you get from stealing ranges from OK to REALLY GOOD as well.

-Steal doesnt cause weakness. Poison does. i get where u are going but im being 100

When you can trait steal to poison and poison causes 3 seconds of weakness with the 15 point minor Deadly Arts trait it’s the same thing. Isn’t that semantics?

-have seen guardian teleport do 3800-4k dmg AND burn. no nerf here?

45 second timer, removes it’s use as a stun break, and means he isn’t using other utilities. Also means he has quite a bit of damage in his build or you neglected to do your job easily avoiding damage. If it’s the first just deal with his boons and he is in trouble. If it’s the second you are in serious trouble that no build or profession should allow you to get out of. Lack of skill should be punished.

-shatters are uncomparebly (not a word) stronger and they have 4 x more F mechanics.

They are infinitely more avoidable and can be killed. Furthermore half of the benefits you can trait steal for cannot be stopped as they fire without a target much less without a hit. Steal also cannot be kited to pick up mob aggro (LOL @ mesmers fighting you near mobs, especially groups of mobs or vets).

Because of the much more severe limitations and vastly lesser utility of shatters, of course they have a much bigger damage potential.

Also lets be incredibly fair here. Stealth and steal are both in reality class traits of thieves. Shatters and stealth are class traits of mesmer. Thief can constantly apply stealth, keep high damage and mobility, and still derive 90% of their strengths. Mesmer’s must give up alot to stealth to a significant degree, most notably damage.

Travlane.5948:

image/diversion are long cooldowns? mug is 45 secs but that was nerfed.

Lets be fair here, Mug is a much lesser fraction of thief damage and is much harder to see coming, Mug is also used as a positioning tool and can have numerous other benefits like poison, weakness, daze, stealth, skill recharge, initiative, healing, AOE Boons, and boon stealing that shares those stolen boons. It’s also possible to easily lower the CD on Mug. You also get a skill stolen from your target that ranges from useful to incredibly good.

The only thing shatters can do that mug isn’t capable of doing and doing better + more reliably is damage, confusion and condition removal. Also shatters are capable of stacking might slightly better. While the damage difference is indeed large, clones are also infinitely easier to avoid and can be killed.

he said they CAN hit burst for 34k. not a fallacy.
point is thieves werent the only ones that could do uber burst dmg.

You should really post a video for these kinds of things instead of expecting people to take your word for it. The video should also show HOW the burst was achieved, that way people can evaluate how reasonably this burst can be pulled off and how long it takes to achieve this burst. This also shows how easy the burst is to avoid and see coming.

Information is the friend of anyone looking to make a valid point. Anyone can make claims and throw out numbers that, while true, are pretty meaningless in and of themselves.

the build does not crumble against anyone. its not made for a 1 v 1. its made so they are lost in the fray ……and snipe out players for huge dmg….OP dmg…

Essentially the build relies on others to be able to do it’s burst and hopes and prays not to get reflected, evaded, hit an Aegis, get interrupted, get blinded, or get blocked by someone tankier. It has the potential to do brokenly high damage on kill shot, IF things work out right. Personally I love those builds, they “assume the position” and I ruin it. Pretty much every build I’ve ever ran has a way to screw it up.

Travlane.5948:

if they wanna nerf….or make stealth weaker…whatever. BUFFS FIRST!

Increase thief base damage
Increase evades
Halve endurance used per dodge
Increase Hp pool
Increase base toughness
Give us boons
Balance weaponsets
increase sword speed
increase auto attack dmg on pistol

theres some ideas to try before nerfing stealth. or atleast both at the same time.

Yes because buffing something into OPness for an eventual nerf is far better than having specific specs being underwhelming but viable until a buff….

Darkwing.2081:

I like that traps are set at your feet. I think placing at your feet makes it feel more like setting a trap. Plus, it makes it so you have to lure the enemy to it (like a trap) instead of casting it on the enemy (like an aoe spell). However, I do have a problem with them being single target. Why not have a trap that, when triggered, creates an area affect, like the caltrops skill but instead of using caltrops directly, you drop the trap and when the enemy hits it, boom caltrops everywhere.

tl;dr didn’t work for you lol.