Guild Wars 2

EcoRI.9273:

Was trenchway DoA not something pugs do because most of them don’t know it exists? I mean hell, I know nothing about DoA farming and I consider myself very internet savvy.

It was very well known, actually. I would frequently discuss it in pubs that I played with. It just used complex tactics, required an exceptional tank capable of balling the mobs, and had far stricter team composition requirements than DwG did. Because of those skill and class gaps, most players couldn’t handle it or would wipe constantly when trying, and so the fastest approach was reserved for only the best groups.

I mean you’re right with regards to fractals and dungeons, but I do think there’s a point where the content is hard enough that even if certain guilds can do it in all DPS and with no defensive support, the average pub group won’t be able to. It reminds me of the days when speed clear guilds would trenchway DoA, but no pub could pull it off so every pub instead ran DwG.

I’m hopeful they’ll reach that difficulty and players will have some choice in their role; the lesser used weapons due to the meta are a lot of fun, and it’s a real shame to not use them without holding your team back.

EcoRI.9273:

optimal and average pick up groups are mutually exclusive. Current pick up groups use bearbows and necros. If you are talking about the current berserker pugs, they just copy what they see dungeon guilds run. Once dungeon guilds find out the optimal strats, then we will come full circle.

I’m more optimistic that the content will be hard enough that bad players copying speed clear strategies will fail, and they’ll have to adapt with additional defensive support.

Absolutely in favor of this suggestion. We need to replace the tomes of knowledge in the reward tracks with shards of glory, not transmutation charges. Transmutation charges are one of the few things that keep PvP reward tracks consistently feeling rewarding.

While I agree that it’d be nice to give people the choice, at a minimum we should not be giving up transmutation charges no matter what. That’s what keeps a lot of casual players playing PvP.

I think the mechanics for defiance were fine, the bar itself just melted far too quickly is all. It needs to take a lot more hits to remove.

Reaper would probably do fine in the role of tank for a raid, but other classes will likely perform the role better. PS Warrior with one piece of Knight’s gear gives up almost no DPS and will basically never die if the rest of the raid is playing well. I still side with [SC], though, in that Daredevil is probably the best tank factoring Invigorating Precision, Signet of Malice, 3 dodges, and damage mitigation traits.

I’m with Cogbyrn.7283, though; there’s nothing at this point to suggest that a Reaper would be bad at the role, it just might not be optimal.

EcoRI.9273:

Once people understand the mechanics, pure dps will likely be the optimal setup. I am basing this assumption from what I have seen on the first boss. Healer and face tanking is not required.

I don’t think that’ll be the case for the average pick up group. I anticipate a healer or a super defensively supporting character will be necessary for average pubs to complete the content, and so they’ll quickly become the norm there. I also anticipate that while it will be able to be done without a healer or super defensively supporting character, most guild groups will find that it lowers the risk of wiping significantly enough that it’ll save time to run one.

And for the record, when I say healer I mean something like a druid in berserker’s or zealot’s gear. The Druid’s DPS boosting abilities in Sun/Frost Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment alone make it invaluable for boosting team DPS in addition to healing. As for super defensively supporting character I’m thinking berserker hammer Guardian or a berserker Herald focusing on protection uptime over other boons. I don’t think a full-on Cleric’s anything will really be necessary for what we’ve seen so far.

Fixing forum bug for the umpteenth time.

Burtnik.5218:

Im not sure what “difficulty” you trying to make here. That raid and it “mechanics” were nothing but walk in the park. The funny part is that AN themself says “zerk meta is gone” yet to beat it..you will actually need zerk. Funny. If they want to make something difficult they gotta look up at other games which already do it right. Trying to cover it behind a small time limit and telling me its there to make it look difficult is pretty much laughable to me. If thats all they can do i hope they wont bother with raids anymore and move out of it.

Based on your response, I genuinely don’t think raids are for you. Responses to your individual remarks follow.

• The “berserker meta” refers to every single member of a party wearing pure DPS gear with max DPS weapons. The very fact that there are some tank mechanics in raids, serious value in high-CC weapons, and even healers being used in the initial beta wins indicates that the “berserker meta” as it previously applied to dungeons and fractals is not the case for raids.
• Raids in countless other games already use enrage timers, including ones that function exactly like what we’ve seen in the Vale Guardian encounter.
• No, really, the timer is there to enforce a certain measure of difficulty and to block the option of everyone wearing full defense gear and taking two hours to beat the boss. That 2 hour run is neither fun nor is it indicative of player skill or content mastery, and thus the skill cap is set higher by mandating a certain measure of DPS to beat the boss in time.

Phys, having read your responses and everyone else’s responses here, I think we’re being reasonable and you’re just a little paranoid and overreacting. I’m convinced it’s not an issue based on every piece of evidence we have so far, and I am sure once you see the actual released content you’ll agree.

[VZ] is absolutely still recruiting! We have a strong core group of players and we all try to be very friendly, open, willing to teach, and inclusive. We will be doing all PvE content that HoT has to offer and we will be doing raids and getting a guild hall. We’ve fully funded our expedition already so it’s definitely going to be a thing.

We’re also doing a hero point rush Friday at 9PM EDT for any who are interested. We’ll probably be doing Kryta or Shiverpeaks this time around.

That all said, if the things we do and ways we are as a guild interest you please reach out to one of the officers in the original post. We’d be happy to chat with you and work out between us whether you’re a good fit for the guild.

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make. Obviously ascended gear is better than exotic gear, so it makes absolute sense to use ascended gear if you can. Obviously times will be faster with ascended gear. Obviously the recommended quality for your gear is the highest for the hardest content in the game. Obviously many pubs will require ascended gear because it gives a statistical numerical advantage over exotic before you even have to account for player skill. Even if the enrage timer were 50% longer, people will still require ascended gear because obviously you want the strongest.

In spite of all that, I still think exotics or more likely an exotic/ascended mix will be totally playable for groups who have figured out better what to do and how to maintain high DPS throughout all phases of the fight. If you’re adamant about never wearing ascended gear, and you are in one of these groups, you’re probably fine. Lastly, it’s a far different ordeal to have only one or two people in some ascended as opposed to having no ascended in the entire raid group.

Let’s also not forget that it’s also absurdly easy to get ascended trinkets, even if you can’t/won’t grind for ascended armor, and ascended weapons are a mere 50g each that can be acquired in less than 10 hours of very average playing… and if you need to you could totally get away with just 1.

Suffice it to say I really don’t think it’s that bad, and… raiding is not nor should it be for everyone. If you’re seriously not willing to put any effort into your gear whatsoever, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that you probably won’t be accepted for pub runs of raids, let alone organized group raid takedowns. Raids are designed to be something that not everyone can do.

No, the enrage timers are absolutely necessary to ensure difficulty is on par with what players want and expect. Removing the timer creates a situation whereby players stacking tank stats can weather the boss down at no threat to themselves over the course of an hour. Even gradual difficulty increases are insufficient because it means there’s no real threat associated with the timer until you reach “X minutes” or whatever point would kill you, and all that does functionally is make the timer really drawn out.

No, the timers must stay, and they must be tightly tuned so that the content retains difficulty.

Great changes, Karl!

For Weakening Strikes, I think the damage reduction would be far better received than another condition. This way it’ll benefit all builds seeking a little more defense as opposed to just condition-based builds.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m confused about havoc master though, does it mark targets as you dodge with a special debuff, of is it an effect centered on you so that it basically doesn’t work with ranged weapons?

It’s just you. Weapons used outside the 360 range threshold wouldn’t gain the bonus.

dlonie.6547:

I’ve found it useful to view gear stats as training wheels in this game. You can sacrifice some damage output to beef yourself up while you’re learning, but eventually you can learn to play well enough that DPS gear and smart utility/trait choices are all you need for anything.

I strongly agree with this. I’ve said it everywhere and I agree, training wheels is exactly the right way to view a lot of gear stats. I do think that as far as PvE goes there are three roles that are determined solely by gear stats.

• Power Damage
• Condition Damage
• Healing

Now healing doesn’t scale great right now for most classes and in general isn’t necessary for Fractals/Dungeons, but it as a function is unique compared to the damaging roles. I think those three things are really the only case where gear drives builds. That all said, I find all other gear stats simply serve as a difficulty slider that players can adjust as they see fit. Maybe you only need a few Knight’s pieces or maybe you don’t need any, but you’re still doing the exact same thing as a class regardless of how many pieces of Knight’s you have. These three roles are the strategic choices you make, Blaeys.

That said, I don’t mind Toughness interplay with aggro mechanics on bosses. Having that interplay just means that someone who’s in a healer or DPS role (if valid) may see some benefit from running added toughness. This may make more sense on the more naturally durable DPS classes like Necromancer or Warrior.

It’s hard to say for sure, but it’ll be fun no matter what.

P.S. I really hope we can buy Keeper’s recipes for Karma in HoT. Those should be really fun if healing is meaningful in raids.

P.P.S. I also agree with Jerus that the combat is based around active defenses, so having everyone be tanky because it’s mandatory would be a crying shame.

Blaeys.3102:

What we are actually seeing in the community however – including by several in this thread – is a general shunning of ANYONE not wanting to play zerker or sinister.

No, I really think you’re just being paranoid here. I speak as someone who played a healer in literally every elite instance in every game I’ve played in the past; I love the healer role a lot. Ultimately, though, the healer was only ever brought because it was necessary to keep the DPS players alive, and speed clearing involved minimizing healing such that you could maximize DPS. It’s always about maximizing DPS, even in those older games. So in a game like GW2 where you don’t have healers, the natural progression is the full party being pure DPS. In raids, however, there is some value for a tankier more supporty character, and that’s great too. If that’s necessary, that’s what we’ll do to win. If it ends up not being necessary, we’ll eventually phase that role out as well. That’s the nature of the beast, and is in no way a hit against people who enjoy tankier roles.

Enrage timers are necessary to encourage sufficient DPS, not all-out DPS. And based on the beta, it’s pretty effectively tuned right now. 8 DPS/2 Support compositions were finishing with ~1:20 left on the timer. That’s solid.

Blaeys.3102:

There needs to be a place in raids for those players who want to play a little tankier – who want to focus on soaking up damage so the rest of the team doesn’t have to.

This role already exists and literally every successful run of the boss so far has included a tankier person. I mean, the [LOD] kill had a hammer tank Warrior in it.

Chokolata.1870:

So, if you dont mind me asking. What would the preferred classes/builds be then?

Lots of Sinister Engineers and Berserker Heralds coupled with a couple tankier/CC-heavy/supporty classes like Guardians, Druids, and Warriors.

dlonie.6547:

I suppose it’s a subjective thing. I don’t consider most of the trinkets to be grindy. It takes some work and some collecting, but a couple weeks of guild missions, a couple dozen low-level fractals, a bit of WvW, clicking on login chests, etc. seem like a reasonable amount of effort in my opinion.

This is an important point as well. It’s incredibly easy to get ascended trinkets, which contribute a huge deal to stats.

dlonie.6547:

I feel like you will lose a lot of players before they can even attempt a raid with those type of hurdles before playing.

Again, those hurdles only exist socially. Certain players and groups of players put them there, and these are the groups that casually players shouldn’t be trying to join anyway.

Bingo.

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk, lets be real, based on what you saw, do you think there will be many successful teams that do not ask their members to have ascended gear?

If you had the choice between someone on your raid team that had ascended gear or someone that had exotic gear, of course you’d pick the one in ascended gear because any advantage is significant. With 1:20 left on the clock, a sub-optimal team composition, and a number of poor rotations and bad downs… The first kill still happened. That gives a lot of flexibility for really good teams to do just as effectively in exotics and still win in time. It won’t be a requirement, but that doesn’t mean that pubs and/or guilds won’t still enforce ascended gear. That’s their prerogative, and quite frankly it makes sense to have as large a numbers advantage as possible before even considering player skill.

phys.7689:

BTW statistical inevitability is a matter of perspective, and in the moment, your chances never increase.
IE you can say someone who tries 1000 times is likely to get some ascended, but in reality, if they didnt get it 999 times, they are no more likely to get it than the guy who tried 2 times.

You’re right of course, but statistically the likelihood that they don’t get any ascended pieces in 1000 runs is so statistically insignificant that I’d speculate no one has ever had that happen in the history of the game. RNG is RNG, but the chances to get stuff from Fractals are high enough that RNG is very unlikely to mess with you forever.

phys.7689:

you really think itll sound good to tell your returning player friend or new 80 friend cool, in about a month you ll be ready to try a raid with us! Or your casual (1-2 hour 5 days who plays challenging content) friend in small guild, dont worry you can just buy it in a few months of play.

Having participated in this content and spent a lot of time watching videos, reviewing comments, and so on, I am fairly confident at this juncture that my casual guild with people who use all exotics will be able to beat this encounter no problem. Then, as we beat this encounter repeatedly for a few weeks, people will loot ascended items from this encounter that they can leverage in the further encounters. That sounds perfect to me.

Either way, one beta weekend and less than 12 hours of playtime with the first encounter is insufficient for us to know for sure whether exotic is sufficient. Before we cry havoc about this, we should seriously wait until we actually get the content and can for sure find our for ourselves.

Ascended gear is really easy to get for free from just playing the content that rewards it. The trick is to not grind for it, but to always do content that has a chance to reward it. Do fractals L50 a bit, or L40 if you think L50 is too hard. Go organize Triple Trouble wurm with TTS. Seriously, the amount of totally free ascended items I’ve gotten from doing these things over the years is enough to get at least one character a full ascended meta build after they added the ability to change stats. And before anyone cries RNG, it’s statistical inevitability when you do the content that rewards it enough.

Astralporing.1957:

Calcifire.1864:

it’s recommended in the same way Zerker gear is “recommended” for dungeons.

Nah. You can do dungeons without zerker just fine. For raids however, the mechanics will enforce both ascended gear, and zerker meta. Because apparently that is more hardcore, or something.

sigh Of course DPS will be necessary in a raid, or else you could bunker your entire team, no one would ever die, and you would be able to clear the raid boss in an hour of combat. Forcing some measure of DPS is critical to both ensure enough danger that it is fun, but also to manage the time demands of the encounters. I would like to remind you that every single win from this past beta weekend involved at least 1 non-pure DPS build per team, and in one group’s case 2 such builds… oh and the win with 2 non-DPS builds had ~1:20 left on the clock, which means they had a lot of leeway for less DPS than they had.

Yeah this trait is awesome, and definitely balanced with how it works. I’m glad Rangers got this kind of functionality, since it opens them up to not having to think about Swiftness on their weapons and skills at the cost of being severely penalized by movement-impairing conditions.

Dahkeus.8243:

Amiron.1067:

PLEASE DISABLE THE USE OF BOOSTERS IN RAID ENVIRONMENTS LIKE YOU DO FOR PVP.

Just wanted to signal boost this. Very good point.

This is already in my report so they’ll address it, but yes, it’s good they see it here too.

In all of my testing both as a player using this trait and a player against a player using this trait, I have never felt that it is overpowered. If the Reaper is autoattacking in combat randomly to generate might when not in range of me, he is giving me free hits on him and is doing nothing to stop me. As the Reaper, I’m not going to waste my time attacking if the attack isn’t serving a purpose; I’m going to leave RS and pursue other options or attempt to gap close so my attacks are actually posing a threat.

Realistically in actual fights against actually decent players, you don’t have the free time to auto attack in shroud for sufficient time to build too many stacks of might. This is not overpowered in the slightest, and any added ICD to either this or Siphoned Power would horrifically maim the class.

Aidenwolf.5964:

DPS
Dedicated healer(s) (which are necessary for every raid in every game)
And yes, at least 1 tank

That leaves 60-80% of the raid in DPS gear.

This sounds exactly in line with what the winning groups ran then, except that the “dedicated healer” also does some DPS because “GW2 combat” and the tank just ran extra toughness but had an otherwise DPS build. That sounds perfectly fine to me and in no way conflicts with anything I’ve previously said.

Aidenwolf.5964:

It means the “raid” design didn’t compensate for the mitigation mechanics of GW2’s classes and yes, that is poor design.

I vehemently disagree, so I’m genuinely curious here; what do you actually want to see? Dedicated healers/tanks running Nomad’s gear? Every DPS class running Knight’s gear? What justification could you have for any of that?

Fixing the forum bug.

Malthurius.6870:

What’s the difference between requiring 9 dps and requiring 3 supports?

The difference is GW2, and how everyone should run DPS and everyone should run support. You don’t have to allocate all support into a few people and all DPS into everyone else. Four DPS condition engineers provide a bloody lot of healing with their water fields and blasts, and them doing so allows you to run a more offensive supporter/healerish character like a DPS Druid or a DPS Revenant with Ventari.

We really have to stop thinking about players like they are “DPS only” or “Healing only” or “Tanking only”. Everyone can do a little bit and contribute enough to make it work, and that’s sort of the whole point of GW2 combat.

Aidenwolf.5964:

If 10 players can clear a raid in full DPS gear then the raids are poorly designed. I’m not saying that’s the case with GW2 raids I haven’t been able to get in yet (logging in now) but they are meant to be challenging and if you can face roll them, they aren’t.

You’re making the false assumption that if 10 players in DPS gear can beat a raid that means they ‘facerolled’ it. Au contraire, that means that they’re exceptional players far above the average gamer and compensated for the gear difference by playing perfectly.

Remember that GW2 has active defenses, and a berserker that runs active defense utilities instead of pure DPS utilities may actually do less damage than a guy in knight’s who can now run full DPS utilities. Every dodge is a DPS loss for most builds. There are so many factors, and what gear you wear really is based on your team compositions and build plans and is just one facet of the whole. Suffice it to say that just because it can be beaten (and we don’t even know if this is true yet) by 10 people in DPS gear doesn’t say anything about the actual difficulty of the encounter itself.

Malthurius.6870:

The problem is that taking defensive stats is bad for your group as a whole.

Taking defensive stats where they are not necessary in a raid is bad, has been bad in every raid since forever, and means that it is tuned appropriately. The whole point of the enrage timer is to force a certain measure of DPS such that teams cannot go full bunker and still complete it. The very fact that one character was running Cleric’s and a few were running Toughness in their condition builds should be telling enough that sufficient gear diversity exists.

Note that when they finished they still had ~1:20 on the timer. That means slightly bulkier and lower DPS groups could still finish just fine.

Berserker gear isn’t bad and will never go away in any of the raid wings. The only reason anyone has ever brought tanky stuff or healers to a raid ever in the history of MMOs is to provide minimal necessary support so that the DPS characters can perform their max DPS rotations unimpeded.

The very fact that people winning have one person in clerics and some people using toughness at all is indicative that gear diversity is being achieved. You don’t have to get rid of sinister or berserker gear to somehow create better encounters or better class diversity.

Enrage timers are important to prevent people from playing too cautiously such that everyone is super bunker and it takes thirty plus minutes to complete. They’re important to force people into a certain measure of glassiness and they also are good for the developers to balance around. Enrage timers absolutely and without question should stay. It’d be cool if the enrage timer had a lore reason for existing, though, no argument there.

Other than that I quite like the encounter. I have collected a lot of the repeating feedback from this thread and will send it along to the ANet team later today as part of my report. I expect to finish getting my report out by COB on the west coast, Crystal, so you guys will likely see it tomorrow morning.

It’s always fun participating in the giveaways, as they brighten everyone’s day, so thank you for all that you do!

Thanks for the update, Regina! Raid team, know that the only disappointment you’ll see in this thread is from passionate people who are just sad that they don’t get to try it out. We on the large understand that this is a super complex system and hopefully we’ll have some way to give you guys additional feedback before release!

Either way, thanks for the heads up. Back to testing specializations!

While this is definitely an issue, one of the best ways the raid designers can combat it is by making the bosses larger so their tells are more obvious. I’ll include this feedback in my report.

Warrior is not OP in PvE. As a matter of fact, if it weren’t for banners, Empowered Allies, and Phalanx Strength it wouldn’t even get used. It’s not the strongest melee damage, it’s just the best offensive supporting class. That’s why you only see one Warrior in organized speed clears and yet you see two (or more) Elementalists.

This is something that has bugged me a lot too. They should just merge the banner cooldown reduction and banner range increase into the Discipline trait for banners. This would still do what ANet wants because most PvE Warriors don’t take the Discipline specialization, and in order to trait banners they’d have to give up Phalanx Strength. That’s a very fair trade if you ask me.

Yeah just tested it. It seems to be that the tooltip is wrong and it’s actually a 4 second slow which makes it much stronger.

I think there’s a strong case for what you suggest. I always want to try a set of specializations that doesn’t include Trickery, but the extra 3 initiative (and also the 2 initiative on steal) are just so big that I can’t get away from it. I think if Preparedness were baseline and they had something else in that slot such as a 1 condition clear on steal, that would make it much easier to get away from being locked to that line.

I agree with you, dlonie, and you’re not the only one who feels that way. The initial trash is too easy right now in an unacceptable way. It sets the wrong tone for the rest of the content, especially when the actual raid boss with enrage timer and all is totally impossible for a substantially low-man party. This will feature heavily in my report to ANet.

I will say:

I agree that the trash mobs should also pose a challenge. Seriously, it’s a raid, and every component of a raid should be difficult and force you to think. There should be priority targeting, and there should be cases where you want to switch targets. I think the trash mobs ahead of the real boss should be tuned harder.

Also, for heaven’s sake, don’t let them get pulled out of the arena and kited. That is the cheesiest feeling thing ever for the first encounter. Where you fight enemies is one of the most important, controllable parts of challenging group content. Once you allow things to be pulled to optimal locations, it starts to feel like the players are in control of the content and not the developers.

That said, once you get to the actual boss I’m pretty excited for its mechanics and challenge levels. Hopefully the distinction in this feedback between the trash and the boss is clear to the developers.

I am also experiencing this issue.

Iris Ng.9845:

If you manage to unload Confusion and Torment? Yum!

Something like 100 blades doesn’t have damage up front

You’re right, of course, but things like Bonfire or Entangle apply conditions over time as well. I guess I just don’t see such a stark difference between condition and power damage; they function basically the same, they just do their damage at different intervals.

Iris Ng.9845:

Let’s say some boss has a multiple evade frame skill (like, revenant) and activates it during your burn. He will evade all the direct damage during that time but the condition damage already applied to him still tick. Is that rewording fair enough?

While that’s true, any new condition damage applying skills you use while the boss is evading will still miss just like power damage. They’re really equal conceptually, tbh. The only difference is that condition damage applied before the evade happens over time whereas when the power damage applied before the evade did all of its damage up front.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Hum.. no… I cant count the times I’ve died of bleeding while Pistol Whipping…

Yes, because you didn’t evade the initial application. That’s the point he was making.

Elorna.5329:

And “standing in bonfires” is the same as expecting mobs to stand in hundred blades, lava font, symbols, etc. We already assume they will stand in our AoE for most of the PvE damage builds to work to their fullest.

Sorry, contextually I was thinking forward to raids where none of that may be true. I think in that case I might prefer power Ranger where at least you can always shoot it in the face with LB and can always take GS > S/A if you need greater control of your character.

SlyDevil.3952:

Good thing the condi ranger build has better dps and no animation locks :P

Shame that it has a ramp-up time and requires enemies stand in your bonfires.

What a great thread. Thank you all so much for taking the time to introduce yourselves, and thank you dlonie for the initial thought! It’s simply great hearing that there are so many developers stalking our humble abode.

I guess I’ll say this as an aside for anyone visiting from other forums or who don’t visit the forums regularly—I am your Forum Specialist. I am your voice to these developers when they get too wrapped up in development to post (even though they still read), and I can help leverage things that are popularly discussed on the forums to them. Disregard that my title officially doesn’t say “Raids” yet, because that’s an oversight and they’ll get to it when they get to it.

I will be writing essays for this weekend about all of the thoughts and feedback, so please remember to post what you’re thinking here. If you post it in this forum over this BWE, I will read it and your voice will be heard. I promise.

Dahkeus.8243:

Crystal Reid.2481:

SlyDevil.3952:

So the question is, “How much dps does Byron do on necro?”.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/hudl-internal-assets/alot/ALOT.png

DPS alot.

This is glorious.

Jerus.4350:

Mhm, it’s just that people should say that, not claim it’s ruining diversity/variety.

See, but there are two kinds of diversity and variety. There is intragroup diversity and variety, which is damaged by the 5-player buff limit, and then there is intergroup diversity which is going to be largely unchanged by 5- or 10-player buff limits because everyone will opt to run whatever is optimal. The former is what a lot of people for the change to 10-player buff sharing mean, whereas a lot of people who then argue against them are actually arguing from the perspective of the latter. It’s important to sort those out to really see what people mean when they talk about this topic!

SlyDevil.3952:

The group comp would be just as strict either way, you have more total classes being played though.

You’re exactly right, and that is exactly why people want it.