Guild Wars 2

OnizukaBR.8537:

I think you had 1 bad experience and is traumatized, because you are taking facts out of your …

Yeah it is hard to believe people are standing out for something other than self interest. Also if you ask him about his raiding experience I think you’d be surprised, if I had to make a guess, I think he has more than you.

You are free to bring up facts that prove more and more people raid each day, week or month but if you can’t all we have is limited tools like gw2eff.

maddoctor.2738:

No you don’t want that. Nobody will ever learn the boss abilities if you make them so weak that they can take them in the face and ignore them instead of trying to overcome them. Your “nerfs” are just ridiculous.

Are you telling me you are not trying to dodge gorseval’s smash attack just because it isn’t deadly? You don’t care about VG’s blue circles because not avoiding them isn’t going to kill you? You won’t dodge out of KC’s jump attack because it’s damage is moderate and just knocks you down? If you are…. then what is your point?

TexZero.7910:

A person in here claims fractals (now) are un-fun, too long, and too hard.

When told to use the lower difficulty, they state the following….Why should i?

An argument based on one person, I’m sure that’ll get far. If you want to make a point based on this, I’d like to ask you to monitor how many people are actually doing lower tier fractals. At the moment of posting this for example I saw 4 groups for T4 fractals and about 20 for lower ones. If you can prove more people are doing T4s compared to the rest I’d be intrested.

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The titans are long gone, given that the Domain of Anguish went under Kormir’s control a long with the rest of the Realm of Torment, and the singular reason why titans were at the Foundry of Failed Creations was because The Fury was making them – and we killed it in GW1.

A domain being under a God’s control doesn’t mean it’s not hostile, I mean look at UW/FoW. The Fury might be dead , but that doesn’t necessarily mean the creation of the Titans just stopped, someone could have taken over. Also if not, we can’t be sure we wiped out the Titans entirely. Even after the death of the Fury we encountered Titans in the holdout phase of the Mallyx Encounter.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s literally nothing of major interest out of the Door of Komalie – to Lazarus or Primordus at least.

But that is my point. Elder Dragons corrupt what they can. We saw Zhaitan corrupt Humans, Charrs, Asuras and everything with flesh and bones. Then there was Mordremorth. He corrupted every plant and used what he could in the warfare against us. I’m not even sure he was able to control anything directly that had flesh & bones. He might have just used some kind of fungus to control the dead bodies of the Itzel, Dinosaur and the like.

And now it looks like the next thing we are going to have is Primordus. Primordus isn’t able to control the living as the previous two as others said, but what about creatures that consist of material he can control? It doesn’t matter if there is one titan, a dozen or a thousand. And titans are unique in that aspect they change based on their enviroment, meaning the only enviroment Primordus might be able to corrupt them is the Fire island chain.

Also another thing. I don’t know how intelligent elder dragons are, but if Primordus knows about the Flameseeker Prophecies and knows how strong the last of the Mursaat has become this might be his chance to hit two fly with one stone, to say. Get the possession of the remaining Titans, and use them against the last remaining Mursaat who recently got a lot of magic. And as far as I know in Guild Wars lore Titans beats Mursaat.

Amineo.8951:

Scipio.3204:

I might be saying something stupid but is it possible both Lazarus and Primordus are going to RoF not because of the Bloodstone but because of the Door of Komalie?

Probably there are bloodstones easier to access, and probably some of them are under white mantle control. If lazarus were aiming them, I think it would be logical to get those first.

What happenned to the Door of Komalie after the events of prophecies is a mystery for me, but if we assume it remained closed because the soul batteries, those batteries might “expire” soon. Considering this Lazarus might be heading that way to refill them.

Also if Lazarus was to fail in keeping the Door of Komalie closed and we encounter Titans once again, is it possible for Primordus to corrupt them? As far as I know Titans adapt to their terrains , if we encounter them in RoF they are all gonna be stones & fire, which could be corrupted by the Fire Dragon IMO.

Also if this can happen, Lazarus might be aiming to open the Door of Komalie to release Titans once again, but to be corrupted by the elder dragon, making him a lot stronger, which in return will weaken us much more.

Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings unlike other elder dragons (or maybe it has never been seen), he endlessly create minions with earth and lava with kitten in their face as a mockery.

PS: I know this is the Smelter Demon from DS2 but it was too funny not to put in it.

I don’t think titans could be considered living beings. They act more like elementals. Also if we assume Primordus could corrupt them, and assume the Door of Komalie is now open or weakened, it could mean a very powerful army for Primi and he could easily release them using the underground tunnels he just dug.

I might be saying something stupid but is it possible both Lazarus and Primordus are going to RoF not because of the Bloodstone but because of the Door of Komalie?

Probably there are bloodstones easier to access, and probably some of them are under white mantle control. If lazarus were aiming them, I think it would be logical to get those first.

What happenned to the Door of Komalie after the events of prophecies is a mystery for me, but if we assume it remained closed because the soul batteries, those batteries might “expire” soon. Considering this Lazarus might be heading that way to refill them.

Also if Lazarus was to fail in keeping the Door of Komalie closed and we encounter Titans once again, is it possible for Primordus to corrupt them? As far as I know Titans adapt to their terrains , if we encounter them in RoF they are all gonna be stones & fire, which could be corrupted by the Fire Dragon IMO.

Also if this can happen, Lazarus might be aiming to open the Door of Komalie to release Titans once again, but to be corrupted by the elder dragon, making him a lot stronger, which in return will weaken us much more.

OnizukaBR.8537:

They dont have scalling system based on the number of people, they have 10 man instance and 25 man instance thats it.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Flexible_Raid

This article must be wrong then.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Now you ask for changes thinking 3 years from now? You want to change something thats working because of your assumption of how it will be from 3 years from now? Thats non sense.

Yeah, because what do you think which is easier, rework 1 year of work or to rework 4? If we reach the point when they need to do the latter, they may consider abandoning raids, which I don’t want

Absurdo.8309:

Why are you making arguments based on WoW if you don’t know the system?

Simple. The topic was gear-grind raid and you failed to make a decent argument , I just used WoW as an example since it is well known.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t know that much about the WoW raiding system either. I was under the impression that when a new expansion comes out, the level cap increases and there is a new tier of gear.

That is pretty much it, we don’t need to know more than that to make an argument based on it. Also as far as I know they made systems like LFR , scaling instances based on number of people and stuff like that even though the number of available max level raids are always 2-5.

Absurdo.8309:

That won’t happen in Guild wars 2. There’s no rush to experience the content (as it’s meant to be played), because you can always do it.

You mean you can always do it, as long as there are 9 other people who want to do it. This is where the issue is. How hard will it be to find 9 other people or even a guild 1, 2 , 3 years from now on? If you try and spread the playerbase too thin there won’t be enough people to run anything

OnizukaBR.8537:

And they can easily add things like sigils/runes bought with Mag Shards, so still a reason to run. So as i said previously, when they want people to play older content they just need to look at rewards, as of now they are in a good place so 0 reason to change it.

Everyone seemed to agree in the past to lock stat combinations behind the raid was a bad idea on Anet’s part. Runes and sigils wouldn’t be different. So are new stat combinations.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Second, people run old raids for mount because they cant get the mounts on the current expansion, as the easier mode dont give any mounts, so they need to wait for the next expansion to release, then they go to older content on the max difficult and solo a content that was done by a 25-man raid ( So all the epic feeling of the raids die right there ).

Probably you are right, I’m not that familiar with the WoW raiding system, but the thing is people get to experience the content if they wait enough. One more thing though. When the current expansion was the Lich King it wasn’t possible to solo raids from Burning Crusade as far as I can remember. It still needed at least a dungeon worth of players.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So, today we have reason to run raids, and in the future? If the current rewards are not enought, A-Net will just change the rewards so people will run it.
Still 0 reason to easier versions of the raid.

And I already made my points why I don’t see that working , you didn’t answer those yet. Furthermore how do you think they should do it? If they increase the amount of stuff you could purchase with shard for example most people will have enough to buy it straight away and will have no reason to run the content.

If they add in more exclusives they risk alienating the playerbase who doesn’t raid already.

If they increase the gold/material income they risk on breaking the economy , or if the changes aren’t enough people won’t care.

Shortly, I still don’t see touching the rewards as a solution ( As I explained in the previous thread too)

OnizukaBR.8537:

at GW2 we have ascended box for example where we can choose an really big amount of combinations of stats ( that will increase with new expansion), so you will never have all the ascended stats, so there will be at least this reason to always run raids after getting all the skins.

Except Legendaries have access to all stat combinations. If you have a full set of legendary, then what?

OnizukaBR.8537:

And in wow future updates make the content easier AND obsolete. In gw 2 with new builds it will be easier AND NOT obsolete.

This is exactly the issue. In WoW they don’t have to care wether old raids are populated or not, in GW2 they do.

OnizukaBR.8537:

And finally after 1 year of the raid release, its not usefull stuff anymore as you can get almost equal gear by a lot of other ways.

I don’t think as many people care about item level there as you think. I’ve played WoW between Burning Crusade and Lich King and people still ran old raids. Are mounts not useful? Armor/weapon skins? Perhaps not , but people were intrested in them. I might be wrong but I’ve heard there is some kind of wardrobe system there now making old skins worth a lot more. I bet a lot of people are taking down Illidian now to get that skin for their Demon Hunters.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So GW2 raids and WoW raids have a really big difference because of gear trendmil.

And I never said they weren’t, only that the two game has different reasons to implement variable difficulties and you could argue in which game is it more important to have one.

Absurdo.8309:

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.

Can you elaborate?

I’ll quote myself (from the same post)

Since there’s no gear treadmill, causal and hardcore raiders are literally on the same level.
Plus, raids only get easier as time passes.
- It’s much easier to learn raids if you’re surrounded by expreienced players
- There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
- Future elite specs could make the encounter easier
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty. Players can hop into this content right now, and forever.

Essentially, all content gets easier over time, and there’s no rush to beat the content. You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.

As far as I know WoW just released a new expac with 2 raids. Which of these points can’t be applied to them?

-It will be much easier to do them if you are surrounded by experienced players.
-There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
-Future updates will make the encounters easier
-You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.

These points you made have nothing to do with having gear-grind or not. If anything, a model without gear-grind requires higher participation rates because no content will ever become obsolete. And considering this even WoW , the most well known gear-grind MMO uses various systems to increase participations.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

Sykper.6583:

You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.

This is a valid point, however considering how raiding works in other MMOs GW2 will have entirely different issues compared to them. Let’s take a look at WoW for example. With every new expansion they release a new set of raids and they try to spread the minority of players intrested in them. Since the number of raids could be considered a constant they don’t need to worry about trying to spread the playerbase too thin.

Right now with every new expansion the old raids become obsolete. If that wasn’t the case and they would raise every raid’s level they ever released to the maximum they would have an insane amount of raids people could run. I doubt even WoW’s raiding population would be enough to support that. Not even half of it.

But this is the case we have in GW2. No matter how many raids we will have in the future it should be expected the old raids to be still runned, because the nature of GW2 doesn’t make them obsolete. The number of raids isn’t a constant here, however the playerbase running them could be. If we don’t make changes to existing raids to make more people intrested at the same time we get new raids , sooner or later the playerbase won’t be able to support the amount if raids we will have.

This isnt the case now as we only have 1 raid. And when it becomes a problem you just solve it by adding rewards/incentives on the older raids for people to run it, it doesnt have nothing to do with easy / training raids.

I already made my points why I don’t see that as a solution in the other thread.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/16#post6319702

Point 3.

Absurdo.8309:

No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.

Can you elaborate?

Sykper.6583:

You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.

This is a valid point, however considering how raiding works in other MMOs GW2 will have entirely different issues compared to them. Let’s take a look at WoW for example. With every new expansion they release a new set of raids and they try to spread the minority of players intrested in them. Since the number of raids could be considered a constant they don’t need to worry about trying to spread the playerbase too thin.

Right now with every new expansion the old raids become obsolete. If that wasn’t the case and they would raise every raid’s level they ever released to the maximum they would have an insane amount of raids people could run. I doubt even WoW’s raiding population would be enough to support that. Not even half of it.

But this is the case we have in GW2. No matter how many raids we will have in the future it should be expected the old raids to be still runned, because the nature of GW2 doesn’t make them obsolete. The number of raids isn’t a constant here, however the playerbase running them could be. If we don’t make changes to existing raids to make more people intrested at the same time we get new raids , sooner or later the playerbase won’t be able to support the amount if raids we will have.

Absurdo.8309:

Agreed. Easy modes will divide those who currently raid.

If you really think that is the main reason against easy mode ,here are my counterpoints against that https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/16#post6319454
Under Indigo’s #2 point.

Absurdo.8309:

It also won’t help train any potential raiders. Based on some other easy-moders in this thread, all they seem to want is rewards.

If you have any point to prove that without generalizing everyone who doesn’t raid right now, I’m willing to listen.

Absurdo.8309:

This post is satire.

In other words, this post is not contructive what so ever and doesn’t move the discussion forward, and only derails the thread. I could explain why what you wrote down doesn’t apply to this situation in detail, but I don’t think it is necessary. And if you don’t think it is derailing the thread just read the following responses.

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll try to boil down your arguments again.

You think that the main barrier to more raiders is that players initially find the content hard, and then give up.

I think the underlying reason is these players simply don’t like hard content. That is, they see the content is hard, decide they don’t like it, and move on.

And that’s fine, of course.

That might be true, but something being hard is different for everyone. There is really no other content that requires the coordination like raids , if we add an easier version people who did find the current difficulty too hard for their taste could get enough practice and routine to actually get to a point where they no longer find the current difficulty too hard.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t think an easy mode would produce more raiders. Just more people playing easy mode (and less raiders, since some would shift to this category).

Probably this will be true in the short term, however I’m certain some who would get tired of easy mode and are capable to do the harder version will do so. But the thing is we have to think long term… or at least I’d prefer to.

If things stay as it is a few years from now on we’ll have around 20-30 raid bosses. If we split the current size of raiding population among these it might prove to be impossible to organize groups to certain bosses , and this doesn’t consider how much will the raiding population shrink in that time (for reasons mentioned in point 3). I’d rather have people running easy than none.

Absurdo.8309:

But, there’s tons of easy content, and more in the pipeline. We don’t need an easy mode to satisfy these players.

But what does a tons content worth if it doesn’t keep people occupied? Current events for example are a thing since this spring, yet the Quarterly reports indicate less people played than ever. Further comments on other content in my first point.

Absurdo.8309:

Plus, there’s a bit of a double standard to the easy mode argument. Raiders don’t demand a hard version of everything.

I guess one of the reasons you can make everything harder without anet’s help, but not easier. You could try to solo lupicus without healing skill and your hands tied back, I imagine that would be harder than anything we have now.

But there’s a lot of more reasons I’d prefer not to list

Absurdo.8309:

And, finally, there are already easy mode raids that players can get their feet wet in. Escort and trio.

I don’t really have anything against that other than trio is locked behind sloth.

Absurdo.8309:

1. Accepting this premise as true, that does not mean there should be an easy mode. In fact, beating raids can be a long term goal for some players

That wouldn’t stop however. I do believe if fractals had the T4 version only a lot less people would run them altogether, because introduction to a certain type of content matters a lot.

Every time I see a raid discussion bought up on reddit, I see a lot of people being discouraged to even try them because of what others tell about raids. Having options would mean they also could have the long term goal of clearing the current one.

Absurdo.8309:

2. People would raid more if they could practice the mechanics

2. I’m not sure this is true. Most raids ramp up in mechanics, allowing groups to overcome them before encountering a harder version. There’s nothing stopping anyone from practicing right now

That point is more like “Less people would stop raiding”. In short if people crack his head against a brick wall for too long without succeeding, eventually they would back out. I saw this happening a lot. If people had the chance to crack his head against lets say a wood wall and have a sense of accomplishment that way he will more likely try the brick wall again.

Absurdo.8309:

3. I agree that raid rewards should have a second look. Especially with repeating a boss later in the week. That doesn’t lead to easy mode raids though

That is not the conclusion I drew. On first time clearing if you are in a decent group raids currently award more than any other content in the same timeframe. On the top of that: exclusives , chances at ascended and a sure way to build a full ascended. I don’t see increasing the rewards as the way for drawing in more people. Only those will raid who raided before.

As for increasing the rewards on second round, that is as delicate topic as this is. I don’t see what rewards you can add on second clears that will motivate an average raider to do it again without turning raids into a grindfest. Considering top guilds are able to clear all three wings close to a hour , what should they be able to earn at top, but still enough to motivate others? But still, this is a different topic

In short, I don’t believe increasing the rewards within a reasonable frame will do anything with the problem of long term raiding population. And wether this issue is solved with easy mode or not, this is a valid concern. Looking at the LFG (the only thing we can look at) I don’t think the number of people we have now can and will be able to support let’s say 4 raids with as many bosses as this one have. And I’m already afraid about the popularity of the second raid if it will have the LI as the main motivator.

Absurdo.8309:

As much fun as is it is to spar with you, this thread is no longer productive. The mods should close it.

This thread hasn’t been a discussion for a long time.

I already wrote down my points yet none of them have been countered. If you want to provide a meaningful discussion here they are:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/13#post6279439

Also to add new things to consider:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Resource Allocation

ANet has cautioned posters in similar threads not to assume that adding different difficulty would be a trivial programming task. Until they say otherwise, a development house that is trying to push out regular content on a sustainable release schedule to avoid the so-called content droughts cannot afford the resources to make varying degrees of difficulty for every bit of PvE content they create.

This is true, but since neither side has no idea what it would take to create one no matter what trivial the solution may sound, can’t be really used as an argument by neither side.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Splitting the Player-Base

While raids do create a split, that split already existed, it was just focused around dungeons. Splitting the raid-interested player-base and the open PvE-interested player base is something else entirely.

First of all, what you only consider here is PUGs, since the way static groups run the content has no effect on anyone else. Saying this Anet already said PUGs aren’t the main target of raids, they shouldn’t be the main thing to consider if we apply changes.

Secondly, I don’t really see how adding new raids wouldn’t create this split you refer to. An average PUG player only kills so many boss a week, I doubt the majority of them kills them all. Considering this adding new bosses most likely won’t raise the average weekly kill count of a PUG player meaning the current playerbase splits between different bosses. Far into the future , if the current raid population doesn’t increase, which if there won’t be changes is doubtful, it won’t be able to support several raids as it can now one.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Rewards

Splitting raids (or open world PvE) into difficulty modes begs the question of whether the rewards are:

1. Completely different (even more work for ANet);
2. The same, but allocated differently according to difficulty. This is a very delicate balancing act that does not have a solution that would please those wanting easier and those wanting harder; or
3. Making the easier mode offer very little in the way of carrots. Since you want to point to story mode dungeons, the lesson there is that producing content that does not offer (perceived as) good rewards just does not get repeated as much as MMO content needs to be to justify its creation.

Rewards are one of the main factors people keep playing the game/game modes. I find it a lot more absurd to suggest a content should offer no reward at all than suggesting it should offer less in quantity than a harder version. Saying this personally I don’t care how ,but if they do decide to make difficulty settings, lower ones should be worth repeating as much as harder ones . Obviously the easier solution is not to create any kind of new reward , but offer less than it is now, however this is what I see people taking issue with (I did offer an alternate solution a little way back).

Personally I don’t care if others are able to get everything I can , since considering the Legendary Armor only, it looks like creating a set of this takes a LOT of resources , they’ve been working on it for around a year now and yet we still can’t preview it. I don’t find it reasonable to ask the non-raiders to wait till they finnish this one god’s know when, then wait at least another year until you can have a long term reward as rewarding as the raiders had for about two year.

Vinceman.4572:

Easy mode is easy, not hard. If people would put effort into the actual bosses they would notice that they can beat them.

I never said it was hard. I never said the current ones were. What I said is they would be challenging , but to a different audiance, which remains true.

Vinceman.4572:

No, because you already said that there are static groups like qT and others who seek for a new challenge after having the current mode out for months. This is how it goes – everywhere.

The difference is, there are no months here, only hours. qT cleared the wings the day they were released. If they released a wing and even qT would be challenged by it you can imagine what would happen. It won’t happen until there is a difficulty system in place

Vinceman.4572:

Starting at 0 – obviously the 20. If you are at week 35, you don’t care and that’s what applies for the actual raiding people.

Yes, we are already at the phase where people are above the required amount of LI but you said that raiders don’t care about that. They care about the challenge. The “path of least resistance” can’t be really applied here since the goal has been achieved

Vinceman.4572:

So we end up having a legendary armor would be as “cool” as a legendary weapon which are to easy to get at this moment = nothing cool/legendary or anything prestigious.
Hope we get new content soon then because I see the boredom coming faster with such changes. For sure/We all know those changes won’t only apply to the leggy armor!

Sorry I don’t understand what you are trying to say here

Vinceman.4572:

Ofc raids are hated because they have rewards behind their barrier that bad players cannot attain. People always cry for and drag things down if they cannot get the profit out of those.

And do you think it will be good for Arenanet to support a hated game mode in the long run? What do you think , what will be the players reaction when they see raids as a major selling point for the next expansion?

Also calling players “bad” just because they aren’t capable for one reason or the other clearing the same content as you? Do you think this mentality is healthy for the game?

Vinceman.4572:

Because the status quo is absolutely fine and yes, raids aren’t meant to be easy as hell. And with easyness I don’t mean that you can just go into them brainafk and kill the boss. That’s all. Stop splitting hairs, it’s neither constructive nor is it bringing you success in this discussion.

Yeah but the point is people like qT already do and can brainafk to kill the boss. Them and a lot more other guild. And if we add an easy mode people will have as hard time with it as some with the current ones. I’m not the one splitting hairs here. You can’t just say something is challenging and expect everyone to be challenged by it.

Vinceman.4572:

And sure, harder modes are always welcome but the majority of raiders is fine with the current difficulty. On the other hand an easy mode has to be refused. Valid arguments were given enough in this and other threads.

If you think harder modes are welcome, wouldn’t that mean noone would be intrested in them since the normal ones are rewarding enough?

Vinceman.4572:

Least resistance argument – if you give the same rewards.

If people could choose between a 20 week long and a 50 week long timegate to get the legendary armor, which do you think they would aim for?

Vinceman.4572:

Official words? Quote? I just read something about time gating in general but that was more directed to easy collection issues and crafting.

To reduce the 150 LI is nonsense to me because if you have raided regularly from the start you could be at 200+ LIs now, if I’m right. And the armor still hasn’t been attainable so far. Enough time to get the 150.
Personally, I started late with raids but I’m on 100 now without clearing all 9 every week due to time + motivation issues. If they lower the amount, well ok, but it’s unreasonable for me, just an unneeded change.

There is two way to shorten the timegate, either lower the cap or increase the weekly income. Anet plans to do the second, the source is in the latest reddit AMA.

Vinceman.4572:

But almost nobody left GW2 due to raids you can’t tell me that you are serious with that. You can’t blame raids and the small dev team for bad/horrible decisions in the company in general. I haven’t seen one single thread or comment on reddit of a player that said: I’m leaving because raids made GW2 bad. Hilarious!

I however remember a top 10 hated list on reddit, raids are number 9 on them. I also saw comments on reddit like people trying VG 150 times yet couldn’t succeed. I’m sure that doesn’t drive them away

Vinceman.4572:

At first, even for the most pugs the raids are very easy. They are only hard for the ones not practicing & playing them enough till today.

If you really think that, I don’t see why you are against the idea of tiered difficulty. Raids aren’t meant to be easy , it should be considered hard by everyone. That issue would also be resolved by adding harder modes to those who find the current one boring.

Vinceman.4572:

The danger is if you split up into several modes you split up the players playing these. Looking back onto the reward structure, with an unbalanced situation here, the current mode would lose many players because they would be pleased with an easy reward from an easy mode. This has to be prevented absolutely.

I’d like to quote you from when I addresssed my concerns about people stopping raiding altogether when they reach the 150 LI :

Vinceman.4572:

I pug weekly with many raiders above this value because they raid for a reason: They have fun to play that content instead of the other 99% in this game which is boring as hell.

If you really meant what you said here I don’t see what has to be prevented, noone would do the easier ones if they can do the normal ones , because they are in for the challenge also.

Vinceman.4572:

There is no need to shorten the time gate. Some people were complaining that 150 LI would have been too much. These voices became more or less silent because the armor is still not attainable and you can raid and raid and raid with more ease from week to week.

Arenanet already plans to shorten the time gate. I didn’t see you raising your concerns about that.

TexZero.7910:

One path for all, is the true path of least resistance. Everyone goes through the same ordeals and challenges, they all share the same sense of accomplishment and no single person’s effort is devalued. Additionally, as there is only one path there’s no longer a need for this “least resistance” discussion.

Actually, no. There are guilds doing their weekly run with 8 man for the sole purpose of reserving two places for those who want to buy it. I watched livestreams doing that. If I had to make an estimate the price of buying 3 wings right now is around the price of a full set of ascended armor.

If someone does that all they need to do from that point forward is to clear escort and trio. If they can even something else. There is your current path of least resistance. It already devalues the current raiders effort since they don’t even need to kill a normal boss to get everything from raids.

But the thing is, I’d prefer a mode that people actually enjoy.

Vinceman.4572:

Of course, because the rewards are made for the challenging content not for succeeding a faceroll mode like in 99% of the game. Raid rewards for an easy mode are just unnecessary.

And if you give rewards to the easy mode, the rewards for the other modes have to be increased tremendously otherwise nobody would run them. Players are going the way of the least resistance. They would accept getting 100g (insert any other insane thought) per day just for the login. You can extend that till such changes would destroy the whole game in the end.

But challenging is a relative term, look at qT, raids are faceroll easy for them yet they are getting rewarded just the same no matter what kind of challenge they tackle. By this time most static groups find every wing easy and only clear them for the rewards every week. Even if they add a mode like lets say Swagger suggested, why would they clear the easier ones when they are just as capable to complete the harder ones and be rewarded more?

Also considering raids are on a weekly lockout people would want to shorten the time gate as much as possible, if lets say, in an easier mode you would get an LI/ wing that would mean 50 week to get enough for a set compared to 9/week normal mode or even more with harder modes. The “path of least resistance” not only refers to difficulty but time as well. People ran CoF p1 because it was short, not because the others were hard.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

Not that I’m in for an easier mode that gives the same rewards as the current one, but if we do add one and people start running that instead, wouldn’t that mean people don’t enjoy the challenge raids give as much as some claim here and are only in for the rewards?

Nobody want to do things that the rewards are underwhelming, neither things that are really boring but got good rewards.
People seek the middle ground on MMOs, things that are both rewarding and fun.
So you do raids for both, if it was only for rewards fractals are better. So people enjoy challenge and enjoy rewards, is that really hard to understand?

Yet you would suggest a mode that doesn’t reward players at all?

Not that I’m in for an easier mode that gives the same rewards as the current one, but if we do add one and people start running that instead, wouldn’t that mean people don’t enjoy the challenge raids give as much as some claim here and are only in for the rewards?

Hypairion.9210:

Astralporing.1957:

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

except easy mode purpose is not to allow people to obtain normal raid reward… most people want easy mode for lore and enjoying a little the raid fight. Some vocal minority doesn’t want to raid but just want raid rewards…

In my eye the purpose of the tiered difficulty is to supply a wider audiance with repeatable instanced content and without a proper reward system that would be useless. Of course the easiest way to do that would be something like fractals, where higher difficulty adds more loot, but I’de be just as statisfied if the reward system would be like something like SAB where different tiers give weapons with different effect/color or even different weapons altogether, just something to work towards to.

Also people seem to forget this is an MMO. A proper reward system is just as important as the content itself, or do I need to remind everyone about TA aetherpath?

Sarrs.4831:

Scipio.3204:

New fractals doesn’t add anymore replay value, you complete it once then everything goes back to same. Fractals are more than 3 year old, by this time you are more than likely to have earned everything you wanted

Yet the same wouldn’t happen for reduced reward/reduced difficulty raids?

I think you missed the point. Fractals have a predefined reward structure , they could double the amount of fractals we have ,yet we wouldn’t get anything new we couldn’t get in one run.Even the process of crafting Ad Infinitium wouldn’t be faster.

In raids that is not the case. If they add new raid it will have new weapons/armors/skins to work towrards to regardless of having tiered difficulty or not. If I had to make a comparison getting new fractals is something like getting a new raid wing that doesn’t have anything unique related to it and doesn’t even drop LI. All you get is magnetite shard and the usual raid loot (Exotic + small chance at generic ascended).

TexZero.7910:

Scipio.3204:

And on my dungeon analogy, you can disagree , that doesn’t mean people don’t run them just for fun, don’t have to set prerequirements and have a good time. Perhaps all you saw was speedclears and gold farm, doesn’t mean that was the only thing people did.

And just because all you ever look for on LFG is meta x class role. Doesnt mean there’s not groups out there just looking for DPS/Healer/Tank without any other req.

So if we want to play the ignorance is bliss card your argument falls even further apart.

And if you think you’re going to find any more basic join request than that, you’re a bit confused on what makes a raid a raid and successful. It’s not on the individual, it’s on the group. Everyone has a part to play, sorry if dungeons trained you to be a solo-hero carrying bads, but that’s not how raids work.

I don’t really understand how this argument comes into the picture, but since you mentioned it I never had dungeon or even fractal completion problem because of class composition. Raids however…

Also if I didn’t know what makes a raid run successful we wouldn’t be having this conversation

OnizukaBR.8537:

And there is a alternative for end game instanced content, its called T4 fractals.

And I already expressed my concerns about that. There are several reasons fractals doesn’t fill the need for a “middle ground”. Shortly (Can explain further if you want)

1, Fractals can’t be the selling points of new expansions without locking them behind it.
2, Most people only run high-end and for a new player to catch up gear-wise and AR wise could take up to a month.

And most importantly:
3, New fractals doesn’t add anymore replay value, you complete it once then everything goes back to same. Fractals are more than 3 year old, by this time you are more than likely to have earned everything you wanted

TexZero.7910:

Scipio.3204:

TexZero.7910:

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

Except that raids aren’t supposed to be easy. They’ve been designed to be challenging group content.

So instead of complaining about it, go get to the point where you can complete them as they are optional content.

What content isn’t optional?

Also the term “challenging” is relative. They could make raids 10 times easier and it would still be “challenging” to some. I know about people being perfectly statisfied by say the difficulty of dungeons, it’s challenging and rewarding enough to keep them repeating it .

The way I see it the people against tiered difficulty think there are only two kinds of people: those who like raids and those who only like to hit one button to be rewarded. They seem to ignore the people in-between.

If they made it easier, people would still complain. See escort and trio.

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way. There is no reason for the devs to cater to this notion that you need tier based rewards for times. All that does is restrict builds even further, restrict groups to best players only, and diminish the already strong PuG community of raiding.

If your guild had problems, well shucks sounds bad man. My guild had its own drama but we still manage to raid weekly and do just fine. Yes people experienced failure and a lot of it, however its up to whoever is leading to put the raiders in the right mindset. Failure is learning. If you constantly fail and take away nothing from your tries then you weren’t learning at all.

Point is every guild has its flaws but that doesn’t mean just because yours failed that the raids need to be changed to accommodate you.

As per you dungeon analogy, i have to respectfully disagree. People ran dungeons not because they were “challenging” but because they were lucrative. Dungeons pre-Hot and Post LS1 were a gold farmers haven both the liquid gold, Karma, Exp, Tokens, and Raw materials meant running them was easy, enjoyable gold gain. This is opposed to the TP flipping investment game which many found boring, or the miners life which was equally bad when it came to fun factor.

People would still complain whatever they do, that isn’t an argument. What really matters is the reason behind a complaint. If I didn’t think it was reasonable to ask for a tiered difficulty system I wouldn’t do it.

You are confusing me with someone, I never asked for a tiered reward system based on clear times, and I didn’t write my guild’s situation to demonstrate how bad it is for me. I’ve had my problems with raids, but I’ve overcome them, but I still think the focus of repeatable instanced end game content shouldn’t come with that much frustration/preparation. Not if there is no alternative at least. I’ve tried my best ,for example when I learned to tank VG I killed it 7 times a week with PUG with two different classes, I’ve learned how to catch bombs at Sabetha with revenant and stuff like that , but that still wasn’t enough to have a great time with those I’ve had a great time playing dungeons with.

And on my dungeon analogy, you can disagree , that doesn’t mean people don’t run them just for fun, don’t have to set prerequirements and have a good time. Perhaps all you saw was speedclears and gold farm, doesn’t mean that was the only thing people did.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

TexZero.7910:

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

Except that raids aren’t supposed to be easy. They’ve been designed to be challenging group content.

So instead of complaining about it, go get to the point where you can complete them as they are optional content.

What content isn’t optional?

Also the term “challenging” is relative. They could make raids 10 times easier and it would still be “challenging” to some. I know about people being perfectly statisfied by say the difficulty of dungeons, it’s challenging and rewarding enough to keep them repeating it .

The way I see it the people against tiered difficulty think there are only two kinds of people: those who like raids and those who only like to hit one button to be rewarded. They seem to ignore the people in-between.

Yes they could make it 100x easier and there would people that fail at them. So you are saying that will always be people unhappy with the difficulty be it easier or harder. And thats the absolute truth, its impossible to please everyone.

So by your logic its a waste of developer time, instead of change current raids ( that would still upset people, maybe new people will enjoy, but maybe people that enjoy it now will dislike so ), they need to seetle for 1 difficulty instead . And the difficulty they choose is the one we have. For me its perfect, because its hard enough to make it challenging+fun and at same time easy enought to make it versatile.

You are right , it is impossible to please everyone, the amount of unstatisfied people however does matter. Take a look at the period between the release of HoT and the first chapter of living story. People refer to it as a a 8 months long content drought, even though raid wings were released consistently through this time period. Even MO refered to it as a content “draught”. Does that mean the average player doesn’t consider the raids as content at all? I’d say very likely. This situation may be perfect for you, but I think it could be improved. Imagine what would you think now of raids if you didn’t gave it a second chance, also imagine how many people didn’t even give it one.

The people that dont care about raids, dont care about raids no matter the difficult. So they would still cry about content drought.

And you know this how? I’m in a casual guild, once raids dropped we organized VG tries several times , we had the numbers to from a group no problem, however as we made little to no progress over the weeks, the enthusiasm dropped. The majority of people from my guild who tried raiding back in november didn’t even bother to try them again. The few who wanted to had no choice but to search for another guild or to go PUG. I’ve seen this happen to more people than I can remember. In my perspective the interest is very much there.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

TexZero.7910:

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

Except that raids aren’t supposed to be easy. They’ve been designed to be challenging group content.

So instead of complaining about it, go get to the point where you can complete them as they are optional content.

What content isn’t optional?

Also the term “challenging” is relative. They could make raids 10 times easier and it would still be “challenging” to some. I know about people being perfectly statisfied by say the difficulty of dungeons, it’s challenging and rewarding enough to keep them repeating it .

The way I see it the people against tiered difficulty think there are only two kinds of people: those who like raids and those who only like to hit one button to be rewarded. They seem to ignore the people in-between.

Yes they could make it 100x easier and there would people that fail at them. So you are saying that will always be people unhappy with the difficulty be it easier or harder. And thats the absolute truth, its impossible to please everyone.

So by your logic its a waste of developer time, instead of change current raids ( that would still upset people, maybe new people will enjoy, but maybe people that enjoy it now will dislike so ), they need to seetle for 1 difficulty instead . And the difficulty they choose is the one we have. For me its perfect, because its hard enough to make it challenging+fun and at same time easy enought to make it versatile.

You are right , it is impossible to please everyone, the amount of unstatisfied people however does matter. Take a look at the period between the release of HoT and the first chapter of living story. People refer to it as a a 8 months long content drought, even though raid wings were released consistently through this time period. Even MO refered to it as a content “draught”. Does that mean the average player doesn’t consider the raids as content at all? I’d say very likely. This situation may be perfect for you, but I think it could be improved. Imagine what would you think now of raids if you didn’t gave it a second chance, also imagine how many people didn’t even give it one.

TexZero.7910:

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

Except that raids aren’t supposed to be easy. They’ve been designed to be challenging group content.

So instead of complaining about it, go get to the point where you can complete them as they are optional content.

What content isn’t optional?

Also the term “challenging” is relative. They could make raids 10 times easier and it would still be “challenging” to some. I know about people being perfectly statisfied by say the difficulty of dungeons, it’s challenging and rewarding enough to keep them repeating it .

The way I see it the people against tiered difficulty think there are only two kinds of people: those who like raids and those who only like to hit one button to be rewarded. They seem to ignore the people in-between.

fishball.7204:

I’m not seeing this drop off in popularity of raids. In fact, I’ve been mapping and I’ve seen those living story Bandit/Ley Line Anomaly fail/ignored by pretty much everyone outside of prime time where you might get 1 map doing it.

Sure some people are stopping after 150 or got bored etc but still lots of people do weekly raids compared with the massive drop off I see in the open world content. I would argue that raids are a massive success in comparison.

That is something else I’m worried about. You are right, after completing those events several times you don’t have any reason to complete them, logically , people won’t do them. However as far as we know we are going to get 3 things in the PvE scene til the upcoming : Living Story, Fractals, Raids.

Living Story comes every 2-3 months, which will be similar in lenght compared to season 2 looking at episode one, except the achievements are a lot easier this time. This won’t give people any reason to stay around, this won’t give them any reason to play the game more than 1-2 day every 2-3 months.

Then we have fractals. Fractals are supposed to be the ultimate 5 man dungeon endgame experience, however adding new ones doesn’t really accomplish anything. Fractals have a predefined reward structure which allows people to hoard up currency, not needing to complete the new one more than one time. Again, no long term goal for the general audience.

Finally we have Raids, which currently is aimed at the minority of players. These are the only players that get something to work towards to on the long term since legendary weapons have been cancelled, this is also why I think a tiered difficulty raids would benefit the game overall. In short, a wider audience would get a long term goal, which , as I see it, is lacking from the rest of the game.

Vinceman.4572:

Most common is “100+ LI” in the lfg as highest requirement for pugs (although it still says nothing).

That is true, but you can still see mostly Xera 150 LI + once in a while. As far as I know most fakers have one link ready, if they have to create or look for another one they might miss the window. To optimize their success they use links that fulfills the highest requirement, which is around 150 LI . That will get them into most groups anyway.

I have a friend who 1-2 months back raided three weeks straight with the link of 71 LI ,lol, he only switched it because people started to notice his LI number doesn’t grow even though he cleared two wings 3 times. Anyway same friend organized a Gorse once, put up an add saying something like 50 + LI and we have people join us who had like 152 LI , my friend asked him to show his tonic buff, he got offended and left.

My point is, PUG s aren’t a reliable source. If anet wants to check wether people raid for the Legendary Armor or just for the fun of it they can easily do so by basic data analysis: Take the number of people with 150-155 LI , substract those who only attained this number this week or the previous and divide this number with the number of people having 150 LI +. This will give them a rough estimate what percentage of raiders shouldn’t be counted with in future raid wings if those wings have only the armor as the long term motivator. I suspect this number will only go up , since let’s face it, content does get stale over time.

Vinceman.4572:

Also your worries about raiders stopping at 150 LI are unfounded. I pug weekly with many raiders above this value because they raid for a reason: They have fun to play that content instead of the other 99% in this game which is boring as hell.

Only time will tell that. I know about several puggers using 150 LI + code just to get accepted into groups. They do plan to stop at 150 however.

Sykper.6583:

I do know however, that as long as Arenanet has the numbers they know exactly how many people are raiding, and will know how to drive development. They seemed extremely optimistic about how well-received the current iteration of raids have been, thus my conclusion is that they are very likely to keep up that trend and provide more raids down that path rather than be distracted by an ‘easy-mode’ option.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you. The way I see it, development plans could change overnight. Look at what happened to Legendary Weapons, yet they are meant to be the long term goal for an arguably larger group than the raiding community, yet chop chop. Their team size was about as big as the raiding team’s though.

Another example, back in 2013, Arenanet released one of their most well recieved releases, know as Super Adventure Box. If I had to guess, this was the release that bought in the most gemstore purchases in a month. Both the forums and reddit was full of praise, with ofc a smaller group stating his distatisfaction, as always, however not continueing this project was out of question. As far as we know a small group of devs (I think 6) started working on it right away to release the next world as soon as possible. And they did, however the second world wasn’t as successful as they hoped…. what happened next? Project pretty much canceled.

This game is full of things like these. If we look at the current scene of raiding, I already see signs that could give us reason to worry. Yes, the devs were statisfied with the numbers they saw and are working on the second Wing. However if we look at the raiding population, we reached the point where those who raid for their Legendary Armor are reaching 150 LI. By the point they release the second wing most people will have that much, and as we know the new raid is planned to still drop LIs. My question is, do you think that part of the raiding population who doesn’t care about the long term goal is big enough (e.g. those who will continue to raid after attaining their 150 LI) for anet to think the raiding team’s resources are justified? I’ve been asking myself this question for a while now, and I couldn’t say with certainty; “Yes”.

The thing is, if Arenanet decides one day the raiding population became too small to continue the development, at that point it will be too late for us to do anything.

Vinceman.4572:

Seriously, there is no player claiming: “Raids are inaccessible for me because there is a Gorseval and a Sabetha, so I am excluded due to my low dps build.”

There is literally one on this page. You even insulted his playstyle by saying
“Everyone in nomad gear is next to good because you simply cannot die unless you go afk and don’t press any button. Your “good” is a doubtful statement.”

Why would others speak up when they know all they gonna get are insults?

^

And people wonder where the people are who would benefit from an easy mode. 2 out of 3 responses have at least one insult in them, why would anyone sign up for this? I don’t know wether I should cry or laugh if the lack of easy mode will be the doom of raid’s development.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

I think if someone doesnt draw it you cant understand. No, its not the only reason.
Another one giving LI on easy mode is the same that asking for Ad Infinitum only doing Tier 1 fractals.
Another reason, you talk about accessibility making sure pugs never get a group to do the current raids ( as opposite of now that you can easiliy pug).
Another reason you are trying to change both the target audience and the purpose of the raids.
You are full of non-sense, you create a problem that doesnt exists, and give solution that actually will create problens that dont exist now.

Have to agree, my previous statement was misunderstandable. What I meant is if we create a tiered difficulty we wouldn’t need to consider PUGs on harder difficulty , since those won’t be meant for them, but currently PUGs have no alternative. In that principle anet even could create harder raids than currently, since I see some people asking for it.

I also have a proposal for rewards, since this seems to be the most sensitive topic. Currently raids seem to have about 1 weapon set, a few unique ones, two backpack and ofc the armor. All anet needs to do is create a weapon set similar to these ones, a few unique ones, and add them to both easy mode and hard mode.

Regarding the legendary armor How about this: Instead of the easy version dropping Legendary Insights, it will drop something like Legendary Insight fragment. This fragment works exactly like Legendary Insight in the legendary armor recipes, but if you use these you won’t get the envoy armor skins, just the utility of legendary armor (eg. stat swapping). If you want to upgrade your armor to envoy in the future you can with 25 LI.

bamm, everything stayed exclusive, a wider audience gets repeatable content, as far as I can see, everyone can be happy.

And just because you and I don’t have problems, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No need to name call me or insult me to reinforce your arguments.

First bold part, so your solution is to remove the current raids from the PUGs grasp?? A lot of people that like to pug the current raid wont, and will now be moved to easy mode? You really think that people want it for the sake that people that cant raid now MAYBE can raid on easier mode?? See how you are creating a problem for the people that are happy pugging raids just because people that are not the target audiance want the rewards.
Now the second and third bold part, you contradict yourself, you say it remain exclusive but you can get on the easy mode on a slower pace, so its no exclusive. Exclusive mean you cant get another way be it slower or faster.

I wouldn’t remove pugging from hard or even hardest option. If they feel like they want to try it they will be free to do so, but it won’t be aimed at them.

On my second and third bolded part, I don’t see how I contradict myself, I add different altered versions of current raid rewards, which will be automaticly transfered to higher ones, meaning the easiest difficulty will have the least rewards, but easier versions will be still worth doing. You won’t get another way to get higher difficulty skins. And thinking about it a bit more I think they should make a difficulty level a lot higher than the current one, but there players could earn something like " Bloodstone infused Weapons" which would look the same as the ones we have, but with red lightning effects. Just and idea though.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

I think if someone doesnt draw it you cant understand. No, its not the only reason.
Another one giving LI on easy mode is the same that asking for Ad Infinitum only doing Tier 1 fractals.
Another reason, you talk about accessibility making sure pugs never get a group to do the current raids ( as opposite of now that you can easiliy pug).
Another reason you are trying to change both the target audience and the purpose of the raids.
You are full of non-sense, you create a problem that doesnt exists, and give solution that actually will create problens that dont exist now.

Have to agree, my previous statement was misunderstandable. What I meant is if we create a tiered difficulty we wouldn’t need to consider PUGs on harder difficulty , since those won’t be meant for them, but currently PUGs have no alternative. In that principle anet even could create harder raids than currently, since I see some people asking for it.

I also have a proposal for rewards, since this seems to be the most sensitive topic. Currently raids seem to have about 1 weapon set, a few unique ones, two backpack and ofc the armor. All anet needs to do is create a weapon set similar to these ones, a few unique ones, and add them to both easy mode and hard mode.

Regarding the legendary armor How about this: Instead of the easy version dropping Legendary Insights, it will drop something like Legendary Insight fragment. This fragment works exactly like Legendary Insight in the legendary armor recipes, but if you use these you won’t get the envoy armor skins, just the utility of legendary armor (eg. stat swapping). If you want to upgrade your armor to envoy in the future you can with 25 LI.

bamm, everything stayed exclusive, a wider audience gets repeatable content, as far as I can see, everyone can be happy.

And just because you and I don’t have problems, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No need to name call me or insult me to reinforce your arguments.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

Absurdo.8309:

Scipio, I may have lost track in the back-and-forth, but what problem are you trying to solve? Is your solution just an easy mode raid?

Just trying to understand your principles.

For instance, I see no reason why raids need to be easy, when we have other easy content. And I find new easy content is far superior to recycled easy content. Finally, there’s other hard content in this game, like arah and Aetherpath, that has no easy mode.

I find it easier to engage (and disengage) when I know where the other person is coming from.

I have my reasons to ask for an easy mode. To name a few,

1, I’m concerned about the game’s future, since as we know there is three things in the pipe for PvE players, one is living story content, which doesn’t reward repetition, two will be fractals, which even though are challenging, yet since fractals already have a reward structure you won’t be earning anything new significant which will keep you repeating this fractal , and three, raids, which is only aimed at the minority.

But the thing is, there are no long term goals for those who aren’t raiding and new fractals and living story won’t give them any. They even suspended the Legendary Weapons .

2, Since my playtime is inconsistent , I can’t afford to join static groups most of the time, which made me PUG mostly. I don’t have a problem with this, however through my PUG s I met a lot of people, guilds. I once even joined a guild (as pug) , and they were impressed with my performance, so they kept inviting me when they saw me online. They were a decent group, we killed VG & Gorse several times on the first try, however, for some reason I don’t know they weren’t comfortable with other bosses.

Over time I saw this guild become smaller and smaller til the point they disbanded. I just can’t stop to believe that this could have been avoided if they had an enviroment where they could just practice the mechanics to get better. And this is not only about this guild, about 20% of the people I played raids with and kept in touch still raids today.

3, I’m also concerned about the size of the raid population. Right now raids could be considered new and shiny , but we reached the point where I see people leaving raid on both end, since they reached the 150 LI for their armor.

This point only gets worse by the new information about new raids I’ve read on reddit, which is future raids will still be dropping legendary insights. From the start I thought the Forsaken Thicket will be the place to get legendary armor, but if future raids will also have the armor as the motivator, what will keep those raiding who already got the requirement for the armor? And yes, I know about a lot of people who only raid right now to reach that 150 LI.

I’m just afraid raids will get the same fate as SAB, the devs get impressed by the numbers they achieved with it, they make a second world, a lot less people will play this second world than they expected, SAB gets ignored for two years.

These are the ones that came into mind but there are smaller things…. however these are my main concerns.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if you add an easy mode raid it automatically elliminates the challenge that raids represent, especially if the easy mode gives players the rewards from the regular raid.

Only in your opinion. Raids would still be the hardest content in the game, which is the point.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Yes, when you find that you dont like the content you leave it. I joined WvWvW in the begining of the game, didnt like it, never played it again. Its accessible but its not for my taste, just like raids are for some people.
I joined raids at the begining, didnt like it ( at that time was because nobody know what to do ), didnt try again for 5 months, then tried again, liked it and now i raid every week. I only log for fractal dailies after i reach MS cap as there is nothing i like more then raiding right now.
And because of raid for the first i found a reason to join groups, and even TS/Disc to talk to people.

The difference between raids and WvW is quite obvious. You can’t just jump into raids and be successful. If people who didn’t get into raiding yet try to get into raiding , why wouldn’t they stop after their first training run? They’ve enjoyed it, yet the barriers that raids represent scare them off/exhausted them enough to stop trying, just like you. If you really did enjoy raiding ,then you wouldn’t have left in the first place, I was there in that 5 months when an average player got better, and wether you like it or not, failing is a big part of the current raids, yet it sounds to me like you didn’t enjoy that part.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Fractals were never Marketed as Challenging like raids were, that’s the difference Fractals were designed with low levels being able to play in them as well hence the scaling effect. Raids were designed to be the hardest content in game and offered rewards as such, you make an easier version it takes away that challenge that is the core design and sole intent that make up raids. I don’t see how you can’t understand that, fractals were not meant to be the hardest or most challenging content otherwise they would have never aloud up leveling characters, raids were designed with 1 and only 1 difficulty in mind.

Also using T4 fractals as an example they are by default less accessible than raids and always will be just based on the pure concept of fractals.

I know that . Also I agree T4 fractals are less accessible than raids are, this is why I think making T4 fractals “as a stepping stone into raiding” is, sorry I don’t have other word for it, idiotic. Also you seem to forgot, high fractals were the hardest thing in the game right up until the introduction of raids, and I don’t see how that was not “meant to be the hardest or most challenging content”.

And raids would still be the hardest content in game , I don’t see how can’t you understand. Just others would also get new repeatable content even if they don’t want to do the hardest challenge the game has to offer.

OnizukaBR.8537:

They are not accepted because most of the time someone doesnt wanna change their playstile is because he doesnt like to adapt or he really doesnt know how to play a proper build. So why would I or anyone else increase the chance of failure ( not because of this person build, but because he might doesnt know what he is doing) just for the sake of this person play his build?
Non meta build are usually seeing on static group, because you know the people in your group and you know they will carry his weight on his non meta build. You dont know people you pug with so you want to increase the chances of clearing.

You are talking to someone who frequently raids , I know why people are taking meta builds. But answer me this: Why did those people I trained leave the raiding scene altogether, even though they geared up their character,used meta builds, they looked for training groups, looked for guilds. Even you left for 5 months. Is this what an accessible content does?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

Because i raided at the beginning ( first week wing 1 was out ) then never tried again until like 2 month ago + -, so i thought raids were difficult before actually trying again to see if it was really true. And then I give it a shot just to see if it was true, and was pleased to know that i was wrong , the problem is players are not used to content that you need to actually play as a group.

And my complain was abot enrage because like i said, when i tried at the week it came out, i hitted the enrage many times. So i thought it was too short as i could not see how much damage the other 9 players were doing.

But that is the thing. We could argue wether we find raids accessible or not day and night, what in the end matters is wether the general playerbase finds it accessible, which is obviously not this forum, or even reddit.

I’ve hosted several training groups open to 7-8 pugs, because one or two of my friends needed introducing to one of the boss’s mechanic. This training usually took several hours,but after I’ve ended them, several pug wanted to stay in touch with me in case I still organize something like this in the future. Sure, I was okey with it, but me organizing things like this wasn’t that often, however, I could track the progress of these people through my friendlist. I saw them doing raids in the upcoming weeks quite often, then after we fast forward to this day, 80% of them stopped playing not only raids, but GW2 altogether. Even you stopped raiding for about 5 month , which I guess was becasue you found raids “really stressfull and time consuming”.

Imagine how many people didn’t return after that experience. They didn’t return because they didn’t want to make the first step, they did and a lot more, but even then raiding didn’t become fun.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Call me dense, but I still don’t understand how does the existence of T1 fractals take away the difficulty of T4 ones.

EDIT:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys. Before you say that only meta or only really tank builds works. Just take your builds to raid, and post a video of it, to prove that your build cant kill raid bosses because of enrage. Not because you are failling at mechanics.

Is gorse video okey?

Also since the topic seems to be the same, I’m still waiting on a chrono build that isn’t meta I can complete raids with.

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

If I was rude or provoking, I apologize, it was not in my intention, however I only see this as another reason to stop the argument between us. Most likely we both know all of the arguments of both sides, we won’t convince the other.

Honestly I was against the idea of easy mode til not long ago, to be precise, til the recent reddit AMA. Two things came up that made me rethink my position:

1, The fact it takes anet 9 months to take an armor set, and a lot more to create a Legendary armor (as we can see). I was telling my friend who didn’t like raiding that don’t worry about it, most likely we’ll see legendary armors to be added to other game modes, you will be able to earn those. Well, now even if I was right that will come at least a year from now on, considering they start working on it right now . They didn’t even finish this yet. Even I found this unacceptable.

2, The things they said about the upcoming raid, two in particular. One thing is you will be able to complete the second collections, which is fine by itself…. but what took my attention is their plan is to future raids still dropping legendary insight.

Now I have two group of friends (for the matter of simplicity), those who raid and those who don’t. Most of those who raid only do it for legendary armor , and they are well over half of legendary insights required. Let’s say the new raid comes in 6 months. Even those who start now will be able to get enough of it. I already know about people planning to stop as soon as they reach 150 and they will have no reason to repeat the new raid after they completed the second collection, since the second raid won’t have an ultimate shiny to chase. This is why I’m in for easy mode , even if those of my friends who stop at 150 leave raiding altogether, I’ll be able to join those who had stayed out of the raiding scene til the implementation of easy mode, and finally they will also get a long term goal even if it takes 1 year to complete.

On your request of proof
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raids-need-a-story-easy-mode
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lets-meet-half-way-Raiders-Vs-Casuals
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Raid-Difficulty-Settings-Merged
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4oaz3y/a_potential_implementation_of_easy_mode_raids_to/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4amr01/no_to_nerfing_raids_no_to_easy_mode/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/46pgf8/old_raid_casual_mode/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4rioou/different_raid_difficulties_would_alleviate_a/

Also there is the a top ten hated things about GW2 on reddit, raid is number #9 for several reasons listed in this thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4rgy84/ten_things_we_hate_about_gw2_results_of_what_you/

@ Vinceman

Not only you tried to discuss something you had no information about, you insisted on being right and spread misinformation even though you were told otherwise. That alone makes me question your credibility. After realising you are wrong , you turned to a questionable information soure (a.k.a. map chat), to prove me wrong. That information is partially right, you can equip two different Bloodstone Band if they are differently Augemented & Infused, but if both is Augemented & Infused you can’t equip both, which makes them inferior to other rings.

Vinceman.4572:

It is more than obvious if I concede shards to easy mode raiders that they are able to spend them at the vendors – otherwise we can also state No shards. Sorry that I have to mention that explicitly, I had the impression every smart person would draw the right conclusion.

I didn’t know you need a certain level of intelligence to decipher what you are trying to say, my bad. The way you worded this

Vinceman.4572:

I was only referring to Rednik’s raid reward proposal: Blues, greens, one rare + 4 shard per boss and ofc able to use these shards. That would be nonsense if it was not possible, if that was the case you weren’t able to interpret.

made me think you didn’t think about you can already spend Magnetite shard on any piece of equipment without unlocking anything at the raid merchants. Anyway since you are degrading yourself to doing personal insults , I’ll end my side of the discussion here, since I don’t want to derail the thread.

PS: I saw about a dozen thread requesting easy mode, yet I don’t remember any about asking for new raids. Do I think that means fewer people want a new raid wing than easy mode? Wouldn’t be an illogical assumption. Yet I don’t because it’s pointless. Anet already has the numbers, it is a waste of time arguing about those. But I believe if anet made a WvW Style poll : Easy mode raid vs New raid, you would be surprised by the results.

@ Vinceman

I feel like it’s useless to argue with you, because you are just replying for the sake of replying. If you didn’t have any issue opening up raid accessory ascendeds then why did you point me towards bloodstone fen? And why did you tell Rednik “Only blues, greens and a rare for a single boss in easy mode + 4 magnetite shard for a successful boss kill resulting in 36 shards per week. That would be ok nothing more.” I would assume nothing more means nothing more, but I guess in your case not since you said “Also I have never said to make them not accessible”

Vinceman.4572:

I was only referring to Rednik’s raid reward proposal: Blues, greens, one rare + 4 shard per boss and ofc able to use these shards. That would be nonsense if it was not possible, if that was the case you weren’t able to interpret.

I assumed you knew you could spend magnetite shards without killing a single boss, if not, then my bad.

Also I guess you just quick checked wiki, but take a look at the ring ingame. Spoiler alert, it’s unique.

And regarding the tuning down of content, you shouldn’t assume like “all they have to do is just….” , it is a lot more complicated than that. Even Gaile came in once to stop making these kind of arguments. But in the end I don’t really care who does it, but if the living story team then be prepared they will be the ones also balancing the rewards, which you might not like.

Vinceman.4572:

Bloodstone Fen, you have played it?
It’s even harder to acquire trinkets in raids than on this map. They made a good supplement with it

Then what is your issue with making the ones in raid accessible? You can only equip half your trinkets from bloodstone fen considering the ring is unique.

Vinceman.4572:

Then give LS3/expansion devs one dev of the raid team to help out but the rest is unacceptable! I don’t agree with “we already got what was promised.”, because we could read on reddit the raid team is again working on good things and I seriously don’t want to wait for more raid content only because people want to enjoy LS3 or more bullkitten open world stuff. The teams are set, let them how they are and let the raid team work on the stuff they are good at – this is challenging content.

This is my point. The raid team is good at working on challenging content, anything raid related work should be handled by them, since they have the most experience with it.

Also about six months back we could read it’s about one month to create a legendary weapon from concept to reality, yet you can see how it worked out. Either way, I wouldn’t expect a raid anytime soon, easy mode or not. People seem to forget the raid team also had the time before the expansion to create 3 wings.

Vinceman.4572:

Sorry, as a dedicated raider I cannot accept your reward structure.
Only blues, greens and a rare for a single boss in easy mode + 4 magnetite shard for a successful boss kill resulting in 36 shards per week. That would be ok nothing more. And another condition: The raiding team won’t develop this mode, not even one of them. Raid developers should continue to develop new raids while devs of the LS/expansion team should work on easy mode.

And as a raider I think we should in addition to what Rednik said also allow ascended trinkets to be unlocked at the merchant and I still wouldn’t be sure that would be enough. Literally no new skin would be available this way. Also it wouldn’t make sense to put on devs who haven’t worked on raids before, the raid team would be the most sufficient on creating this. Keep in mind the raiders already got what they were promised with a full wing unlike those who are waiting for future LS updates

I like the Idea and if it was implemented the raid experience wouldn’t be as frustrating as it is now and I don’t see any major issue that could be against it. One thing though, afaik Xera can’t be completed with less than 6 man due to the 3 platform crystal thing during the first phase .

Also if they implement this the low man kills become far less impressive

EDIT: Also I think you should change the topic’s title or it might be merged with the other one

Vinceman.4572:

Scipio.3204:

Forming an own group would be the last thing I would suggest to those who can’t get into the current raid. If they do that not only they have to coordinate 9 other player other than themself , they have to know every person’s role and what they are supposed to do. Combine that with little to no experience with the mechanics and you get the equation for a very bad experience with this particular content, which, in my opinion would only drive people from the “No, but I would like to.” column to the “No, the raids don’t interest me.”.

The biggest issue is not to start, the biggest issue of those players is to be and stay tolerant towards frustration and bring enough patience.

oh, I didn’t know you were a fan of frustration, I have no more question then .

Also you can disagree all you want, I’ve organized several boss clears and the organization part was often times twice as long as beating the encounter itself. So much fun.