I don’t have anything to add as well, but this is a fabulous thread, Lost Witch! The problems you’ve discussed are prevalent, and the solutions and examples you’ve provided are inspiring and well thought-out. Keep it up so you can get noticed and start designing my dungeons!
There will always be differences of opinion on what is a lot….but it does look very boring to do regardless.
That’s my deal. I think I’m gonna wait awhile until they do the standard MMO business of making the gear easy as crap to get a few months down the road. That or its more “content” that doesn’t apply to me. /shrug
It’s not a clear yes or no. The goal should be to discuss whether or not vertical progression adds to the game and be consistent with said philosophy.
Absolutely.
Yeup, paying attention to the TP will net you results very similar to this.
MMOs can’t make promises.
This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.
Merely a statement that no new tier will be added until 70% of the active playerbase has full ascended, coupled with a formal promise that level cap will never be raised is all we want.
Arenanet will not say this because part of it is not in their plan. They already confirmed that they plan to increase the level cap. They also confirmed that infusions have tiers and higher quality ones will have better stats. Since infusions have stats beyond agony resistance, this alone will create power creep.
Will there be a full tier after Ascended? Arenanet will not say. I think they are not saying because they are planning to do it.
Again, the whole point of introducing these is for people that need gear with better stats to work towards. If Arenanet is now convinced that is the only way to retain those players, they will have no choice but to introduce new gear tiers. It is retention through the carrot rather than through fun. Much like the model subscription-based MMOs use.
My thoughts precisely.
Regardless of what anyone says – be it player, developer, or whoever – MMOs are games that are always subject to change, especially when it comes to chaCHING
I came in here expecting Kalameet. Where my Dark Souls bros at?
I just don’t see much replayability in the game. Any content completed for the first time provides no draw for a second. Giving me more trinkets just for doing the same thing repeatedly won’t do much to change that. Lack of class variation coupled with an easy and forgiving gameworld don’t do much, either.
I blame Dark Souls, really. That game has spoiled me in challenge, aesthetics, and depth.
Imo item spiral is not especially a bad thing. Only if you time gate it. Players should be rewarded for their hard work and not for logging in every day.
The concern is players becoming disinterested once they acquire said items.
The answer to that is to create interesting content.
The other concern is players gaining an ‘advantage’ ‘too early’.
The answer to that is to not create the advantage.
Vindictus does this with its inner armor system, it’s pretty neat too. Kinda adds an extra layer of customization below your normal armor.
Didn’t they make a crapton of cash by selling that pair of pink panties?
Um..why? Why would they need to do that?
MILLIONS of dollars.
The current tone doesn’t seem to “match up” too much with the wanton slaughter the game rewards me for doing. Double trouble if I end up getting the critters daily!
This is a reason I had to turn off/change the music, though. Way too “happy” considering my (and nearly every other players’) killing sprees.
This is going to be real fun to see because I’ve never seen my server able to take Grenth. Let the popcorn begin!
Timegating/sinks are the most shallow attempts of game longevity for the most shallow of player. They’re not interesting nor challenging and it makes me feel like the developer is incredibly desperate for me to play.
If playing an MMO means running into “features” like these all the time, then no thank you!
Not to my tastes, but they’re at least moderately practical I suppose. I’d just transmute mine into my trusty norn greatsword.
That Destiny’s Edge entry made me chuckle surprisingly.
Turning cash into gold.
That said…. If the rest of the team finds a Pugger who’s new to the run after this update, and DOESN’T have an AW as their mainhand Melee… I will /votekick on the spot b/c they definitely will not be competitive with the rest of us who all will have crafted either a Zerker or Assassin’s mainhand by that time.
Is this before or after you asked if they transmuted it, and/or verifying if they have good trinkets in combination with the Ascended weapon?
Jumping the gun a wee-bit, mefeels.
Am I??
Yes, because you don’t know if they transmuted their AW to look like a non-AW. That’s why I asked you to specify if you were booting them off of appearances alone.
That said…. If the rest of the team finds a Pugger who’s new to the run after this update, and DOESN’T have an AW as their mainhand Melee… I will /votekick on the spot b/c they definitely will not be competitive with the rest of us who all will have crafted either a Zerker or Assassin’s mainhand by that time.
Is this before or after you asked if they transmuted it, and/or verifying if they have good trinkets in combination with the Ascended weapon?
Jumping the gun a wee-bit, mefeels.
(edited by Smith.1826)
That the thing in a game like Zelda you did not feel as if you got something of legendary because the mobs where stronger once you got it…
Yeah because you went into the future – the future where Ganondorf and is goons won. Why would it be “easier”? These guys are the baddest of the bad, providing even though they’re against the master sword. That’s a much more proper difficulty curve than one spiking once you got the “best” weapons.
And oy, speak for yourself! Anything of legend needs more than just being strong. Hence why I feel nothing for our legendaries: Grindtastic rewards testament only to the time you’re willing to grind out those mats.
Compared to what? Are you suggestion that Legionaries are going to be stronger then ascended weapons?
What are you talking about? I merely commented about how you said “making legendaries feel legendary”, and that I don’t think the “perks” being associated with them will reinforce that fact. I brought up Zelda as an example of how something can manifest itself as ‘legendary’ much moreso than what we have in GW2. All mostly OT conversation, sans my “playing field” comment.
You can buy a legendary too in a way ascended weapons are going to be the poor mans legendary wepon. Its a way to make ppl feel as if by making a legendary is realty just that AND at the same time make the ppl who truly make an ascended wepon or get one to drop as if it something that ID your heroes. Its all realty just an illusion you got to be able to take a step back from a game and know its for fun.
That’s not the way to make a weapon feel “legendary”. In the Ocarina of Time when I pulled the Master Sword? That was “legendary”. It was historical, powerful, and so magically crazy that when Link pulled it out he turned into a man – immediately. That doesn’t exist for Legendaries, nor for any item in GW2.
Its all realty just an illusion you got to be able to take a step back from a game and know its for fun.
That’s fine. Likewise, you have to understand how unevening the playing field can upset a lot of people.
It will feel important because the time you put into getting this item or the gold to buy it has payed off so your one of the first to get these items AND you have an wepon that can be any combo in the game that you want.
That’s convenient, but still does nothing to compare.
You can buy a legendary too in a way ascended weapons are going to be the poor mans legendary wepon. Its a way to make ppl feel as if by making a legendary is realty just that AND at the same time make the ppl who truly make an ascended wepon or get one to drop as if it something that ID your heroes. Its all realty just an illusion you got to be able to take a step back from a game and know its for fun.
That’s not the way to make a weapon feel “legendary”. In the Ocarina of Time when I pulled the Master Sword? That was “legendary”. It was historical, powerful, and so magically crazy that when Link pulled it out he turned into a man – immediately. That doesn’t exist for Legendaries, nor for any item in GW2.
Its all realty just an illusion you got to be able to take a step back from a game and know its for fun.
That’s fine. Likewise, you have to understand how unevening the playing field can upset a lot of people.
why are they adding that bump?
Why not? It’s another goal that people can (or wont) strive for as they see fit.
I highly doubt it “had” to be an insignificant stat increase, especially in a sequel to a game that ‘shunned’ such ideas.
Also because of WvW obviously.
Try read again what i wrote. Also, you are ovbiously talking about WvW: since when has it been balanced around duels?
He wasn’t talking about duels. They’re not the only thing that’ll leave you at a digit of health.
Why should you have it handed to you immediately?
I’m not fine with “immediate”, nor am I fine with “grind” or timegates. If I’m to receive something I want it to be meaningful, especially if it’s an “awesome weapon”, and just putting “time” into it doesn’t do that.
Also not fine with introducing items that just make an easy game easier. Pointless.
Depends on the mood. Especially in some of the more “foreboding” areas I’ll turn off the music.
But I’m actually not a big fan of GW2’s soundtrack. I replaced most of it with Skyrim’s. Both soundtracks were done by Soule so, it works.
The battle themes in Skyrim were particularly amazing, and hearing this gets me pumped to no end.
Might be worth noting that the only thing I enjoyed from Skyrim was the soundtrack.
I’m still not sure what it is about them, but they all make me cringe.
Please, take a step back and look at this game compared to every other MMO out there and how they treat their community. This company listens to their community much more then others and are quite transparent with what they can be with.
This makes me want to laugh, bitterly.
Hi. I’m Palador, and I’m a former long-term player of City of Heroes, which was run by Paragon Studios. THAT was a group that knew how to work with their community to improve their game and actually make friends. And then, one Friday, NCSoft came in and fired everyone. The next big update which was pretty much ready to go was never released to live servers. Game servers shut down 3 months later.
I don’t intend to take this out on ANet, even though they also work for NCSoft. However, NCSoft IS the reason I don’t hold back on what I say to them about what’s wrong with the game. CoH and Paragon Studios were just the latest in a series of games that NCSoft has killed off and swept under the rug, never to be seen again. GW2 could very easily become their next victim.
They don’t get nice from me because they can’t afford it. If they don’t meet whatever goals NCSoft has dreamed up for them, then one morning they’re going to get the ax so fast that ANet will have no chance to split off to become its own company. The game will disappear, and that will be that.
If someone’s playing with fire, you don’t kindly suggest that maybe they might want to consider precautions to avoid getting burned. You either yell at them, or you grab some popcorn and grab a seat to watch.
This is an amazing post, holy crap.
I liked it when Rift did it and I like it now. I always have to be fully facing them when I attack though, otherwise the animations are kinda weird.
I think there’s a command line you can put in the shortcut that increases fov, but nothing to increase camera height, sadly. The most you can do is move it left or right.
What do you think of the current content, with skill achievements in the Gauntlet and funhouse?
Oh I think they’re great, I just don’t feel they can provide as much more “content” (figuratively of course) as difficulty settings can. This was probably one of my favorite things about Dark Souls: Beating the game immediately restarts it in a harder difficulty. But still, wanna reaffirm that yeah, this is becoming a better direction for them.
More challenging content with difficulty settings, please. “Pro” players are happier and easy-going players still get to see the content. Win-win.
hardcore players are not pro players
Call whoever you want whatever you want, still make hard content with difficulty settings.
More challenging content with difficulty settings, please. “Pro” players are happier and easy-going players still get to see the content. Win-win.
Sure would be interesting to see that gold medal become account bound all of a sudden.
Anyways, just one, very hard to will myself to do the same huge thing twice.
This was what I experienced when I first hit 80 and has pretty much stayed the same way since then.
As to the reason? Not sure exactly, but I myself have acted this way when trying to ‘farm’ items in various games.
Most people are playing the game and having fun. Most people on the forums are here to complain. Typical forum. You have no evidence of most people believing anything.
And Guild Wars 2 is rather grindy now if you play it that way. If you don’t play it that way, it’s not. It’s a choice.
“Grind”. Engh. Such an evil word with it’s million definitions…
I won’t say anything’s “grind”, but I do think a lot of the content needs a lot of restructuring and some major additions to warrant the replayability that most of the in-game rewards require.
You are free to decide to play or not as well. You are free to go to work or not. Freedom of choice is not the issue for me. But obviously when you feel you want to accomplish something then your choices to achieve them are more narrow.
In my view GW2 rewards are either too easy or too much work. Too easy doesn’t feel that satisfying either and too much work is what I consider grind. With too much work means an excess of what is needed to get a reward compared to the actual reward.
There are different play styles but this game doesn’t really offer much for goal oriented people. At least not in a way that feels satisfying and like you actually accomplished something.
It’s still a personal opinion but this game did step away from the usual gear treadmill but not entirely and not in a way that works for me.
The Manifesto is old and to be fair I prefer talking about the game as it is….what the Manifesto did or didn’t do really is old news.
Mostly how I feel about all of this.
First time I looked at these. They don’t make much sense, hope they change soon.
Why does AC reward 1.5g per path, though? I haven’t had trouble finding groups for it and it’s not all that difficult.
Like I explained previously multiple times now the time gate only reduces the requirements on the player it doesnt change time required.
That’s fine, but you asked why farming gold or karma is different than farming ‘dailies’ i.e. laurels. The difference is that you’re free to farm as much karma and gold as you want. This is not the same freedom the dailies promote, thus can encourage the feeling of ‘having to play’ a certain way. That’s why a lot of people have expressed concern, because a ‘weekly’ reward model makes more sense. That’s all I wanted to get across, so I’m not sure where the rest of your post is coming from.
…
this is probably the opposite of the truth. it’s the people who don’t spend so much time in game (but continue to log in) that don’t have sufficient gold for nice items. so it’s them that are most likely to spend real money.
i don’t say that anet are an evil corporation that wants to suck all the money from people, no. however i don’t think we should be naive about their business model. in my opinion they are trying to find a balance between max profits and minimum player unhappiness. these dailies and the living story are “sales” to get people into the game and keep giving people chances to get interested again. an interested person spends money.
This is pretty much how I feel about dailies, just a slight ‘nudge’ to play the game. They don’t provide any content, just some neat rewards. They don’t do anything for someone who no longer enjoys playing the game, and I think it’s safe to assume that most people don’t pursue things they don’t enjoy doing.
I dont think this is a tactic to get people to play every day. In fact I completely disagree with the statement and have been trying to explain it is no different then any other non time gated currency.
15 days worth of gold take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of karma take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of dailies take 15 days to earnwhy is it that with gold and karma its okey to add x days to your 15 days but with dailies its like you’re being forced to play every day?
Because the rewards are timegated.
Someone playing for two hours over two days can complete two dailies. Someone playing for two hours over one day can complete one. Change “two” to any other digit and it will apply. That’s the difference.
I have already explained to you directly at least twice now the reason why I believe Gw2 requires to limit the speed of Ascended gear. It has got to do with The issue of People loving / hating Vertical progression. If you ask another 5 times I’ll give you the same answer cause what I believe and this will not change unless presented with a good enough reason to make realize I was wrong. So far that hasnt happened
From what I gather (sometimes it gets difficult reading your posts), you seem to think these timegates are important because the sooner a ‘statgrinder’ gets the best gear, the sooner he’ll start asking for more. This is true.
What I question is how this is good for everyone, since not everyone likes to grind and not everyone can keep a sturdy game schedule. Not everyone likes free rewards, either (“time spent” isn’t really indicative of much effort or skill).
If we really want to expand on options – that’s what dailies attempt to promote – what if in addition to the timegated rewards we have now, we had challenging content with those same rewards? This way, inexperienced players and casual lootgrinders can still wait a month or two to get what they want, while skilled players get their knowledge of the game tested and rewarded.
In this instance, good players wanting vertical progression may get their gear ‘quickly’, true. But provided that the “challenging content” isn’t a casual flop-fest, it’ll require that they’ve put a lot of time into learning and playing the game. This would definitely impact WvW, but how ascended gear affects WvW is a thread all on it’s own.
Because there are two possibilities here. Ether a single quest chain for the whole set which is unfeasible (it would require 180 days to complete) or a quest chain per single piece that requires 15 days to complete. In either case you might want to respect in which case the quest has to be repeatable so you can get a set for your new spec.
The reason why its bound to time is because thats the real cost of loot. This is not something gw2 does, its in every game MMO or otherwise. Why are raids limited to once a week? why are drops control by RNG? Why is loot distributed between party members?…
Because these aren’t ‘cherished’ features that keep reappearing in MMOs due to their popularity, they’re cheap ways to keep you playing as long as possible, that’s why they’re ‘popular’. They keep you subscribed longer, and in a free-to-play game attempt to ‘encourage’ you to buy something from them. You’d be hard pressed to see these kind of ‘features’ outside of MMOs and games that want your money (only being able to earn five stars a day in Mario 64 is a terrifying concept).
So why are they in GW2, a game without a subscription fee that isn’t entirely ‘free-to-play’? To encourage active gameplay? This can be done by making gameplay and the game world more interesting. To prevent people from ‘burning out’? An odd excuse considering how they implemented Legendaries. “Just something other MMOs” isn’t a good reason.
Conceptually I full agree, In practice though can you imagine enjoying an 12x repeatable epic quest chains that take 15 days to complete each that wouldnt drive you crazy?
Why are you assuming that’s what I meant by ‘epic quest chain’? I’m not sure you know what you’re agreeing with.
More importantly, why do you keep quantifying everything by how much time – not skill or effort – it takes to complete? That does nothing good for the game.
I has to be a balance. Thats what the daily system does. Try to balance necessary evils with fun.
You get to wait 15 days but arent required to grind.
You are required to play 15 days but are free to play whatever you want
etc..
People already find the minuscule effort required for a single daily daunting and boring… Multiplying it by 7 will make it 7 times worst.
If they’re not having fun doing it, they shouldn’t be doing it – and proceeding to ruin the game for themselves shouldn’t ruin the game for other players. There’s no subscription fee here, there’s no money to be made in determining how someone should spend their game time.
That, or maybe content that can be considered “dull” shouldn’t be “rewarded”.
Just the $ for the box, and it has indeed been worth it.
Because some people love rewards and would do anything for them. Others would like to have those same rewards but dont want to spend all the time working towards that goal. Newer better rewards would hurt the game for some. Dailies are a way to balance these 3 completely different issues in a way thats fairer for everyone.
…That kind of thing happens when the shinies of the shiny requires big efforts. Dailies in Gw2 are as far away as you can get for that. Play the game anyway you want and you’re good! Couldnt be easier… well they could give BiS away for free but short of that, this is the easiest way to get them.
Having such aspects not in the game is the farthest you can get away from that.
Aside from that, a more interesting, ‘healthier’ alternative would be to link the rewards through interesting content – like having ascended items be the result of epic quest chains, or having legendaries be the result of demanding and satisfying challenges (and not just a ‘legendary waste of time’). Overall, more emphasis on rewarding good content, less emphasis on pouring hours into the game, no time gates or sinks required.
That would be true if some people were not their worst enemies. Look back in this thread. People stating they refuse to run dungeons with their friends because they have to do the daily. People saying the dailies are keeping them from WvW which is where they have fun. etc… They can do their whole daily or at least most of it engaging in those activities but no, they have to grind the daily out of the way. There is no guarantee everyone will enjoy doing the daily because some spoil it for themselves because of pressures they create themselves.
That’s understandable, except I don’t think this should all be at the expense of people who are responsible with their playtime.
If the endgoal is to make everyone equal, seems to me that it’d make more sense to get rid of the things that cause the inequality.
What supply poor players extra gold or busy players more hours in a day? Oh I know, give everybody a free set of “new items” that the gating mechanism was going to slow down the introduction of. Everyone is now equal with no effort on their part plus there’s no longer any long term goal.
So we’d be right back to where we were before ascended items? I’m down.
Sarcasm aside, the endgame goal should be to enjoy the game, and there isn’t any effort gone into the dailies anyways.
I did answer that question to you personally in a previous post when I told you why its important Ascended gear lasts for as long as possible. You know that too cause you replied to that post.
Yeah, and the answer was “what’s the alternative?”. There are plenty of alternatives, one of them being to make the content more rewarding than the loot.
Tall order, but like I said, it’s for a big problem.
Well if reward is not important then content then this wouldnt be an issue either way.
Precisely, so what’s the point of dailies?
On the first page you said “…The problem is people dont care about content they care about rewards. Nothing the game can do there.” That’s true, but dailies, timegates, and timesink rewards aren’t helping.
It makes it a lot less grindy. A day worth of dailies is just 30 minutes… not even that really cause you can just play the game and boom daily without having to do anything special. A day worth of karka shells or a day worth of ecto or a day worth of karma is not 30 minutes of a specific task though its a lot more.
I’m not comparing daily progression to any other reward progression, I’m comparing 60 minutes of dailies over two days to 60 minutes of dailies over one day. Assuming I’m having fun in those 60 minutes, regardless of how I spend it, why is the second one more important?
Because it levels the playing field between the wealthy and the poor, in both terms of game wealth and playing time. So we have a new currency or craft material that is account bound that take minimal effort to get. This way the wealthy can’t simply buy the items with this currency or craft the item any faster than a poor player and the same holds true with players who can play all day versus those who can play for an hour. Everyone is equal.
If the endgoal is to make everyone equal, seems to me that it’d make more sense to get rid of the things that cause the inequality.
There is difference between a daily and a weekly. People just cant seem to go in and play the game in order to get their daily done, it will be no different in the case of a weekly. That means people will get the weekly done on day one, it will feel grindy because it will be to get it all done in 1 day (imagine killing 175 aquatic things or 7 champions or 350 mobs etc…) and then people will be unhappy because for 6 days they’re doing 0 progress towards their goal. On the other hand it would help people who cannot play everyday to keep up with those who can. There pros and cons to this.
That still doesn’t answer my question. Why do timegates have to exist at all, in any way, shape or form? It doesn’t do anything to make tasks feel less ‘grindy’: Press a button each day for a year or press the button 365 times during a week, you’re still just pressing a button.
Is it so players simply don’t get the rewards instantly? If that’s the case, the game may have more to do with having players emphasize more on ‘rewards’ rather than ‘content’ then you’d think.
I don’t see any why there’s any need to dictate how someone wishes to spend their game time.
Ascended gear is not going to last forever. with 15 days a piece it will take up to 6months per character. That hopefully means 2 – 3 years. If we remove time Gating it will depend how hard it is to get said gear. anyhow. Once many of the pro vertical progression are fully geared what will happen then? they’ll demand a new tier. If Anet does create a new tier anti vertical progression will go balastic. If they dont do a new tier Pro vertical progression players will go balastic. In both cases it will not be healthy for the game.
Thats the reason why its important it takes 15 days to get a piece in my opinion.
That doesn’t solve any problem, though, just delays it, and I still don’t see how that makes the rewards or content more ‘meaningful’: What’s the difference between a person doing the same thing seven times a week as opposed to doing it seven times in one day?
Whats a better way then dailies so that Devs can make an ascended armor piece take 15-20 days to earn that leaves players free to play the game the way they want then the current daily system
You still haven’t answered why anything should need to strictly take 15-20 days to earn or complete.