Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

The funny part about this whole thing is that the devs have said the same thing. And I’m just saying I spoke to a dev who said it. Why would anyone doubt that a dev is saying what other devs are saying.

I was simply stating this because people were questioning the integrity of the devs and my contribution was that this guy wasn’t painting a rosy picture with anything else he said. What I said he said…that was already said by others and is a matter of public record.

Those people so intent on doubting me, are asking me to show text of a conversation I had with a dev, who happens to be saying something other devs have said publicly.

You people are something. lol

I’m not one who doubts the conversation happened. I think its awesome you did, in fact. But I’m not going to be concerned by someone saying “a dev I talked to said they’re gonna do something bad for the game!”. Similarly, I’m going to be a trillion times more comforted if I could actually see what the dev you spoke to said.

Vayne.8563:

Saying that someone can’t experience it now, so it’s not lore is probably not the best definition of lore.

I wasn’t aware I was saying it wasn’t? Sorry if it came off as such. I was saying I wouldn’t compare a backstory to content that’s been deleted resulting in backstory. At least I think, I’m getting distracted by Dragon’s Dogma as I’m posting. kittening garms.

Galen Grey.4709:

Yes I am sure given the opportunity we’d all buy a time machine in order to get filthy rich not realizing the result would be complete collapse of the world economy in a single instance.

Time machine? I didn’t say nothin’ ‘bout that. I’d say its more in-line with liking a particular part of a video game that I really enjoyed and being able to re-experience it any time I wish, which is what I consider to be a huge strength about video games.

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure MA was actually playable content which we who were there played. Its now back story for players who join today no different then any back story in any mmo.Why dont feel bad for never playing through back story of MMOs why should this be any different?

Because those “backstories” you reference are text and lore that no one’s experienced. The LS is actual content and gameplay that’s been deleted from the game that new and returning players don’t get to experience. If I had a great time with a part of a game, I’d want someone else to have that great time as well, and I’d be more than willing to slightly disregard having a “living world” if it meant that someone else could have that same great time I had, and if they’re having a great time now then I’m sure they’d have a lovely time playing all (or most) of the stuff they missed.

Regarding MF and AR: Can’t say I’m looking forward to the fact that I’m gonna have to go through a lot of old content just to get to the new, but maybe I can find a group that keeps “rerolling” the fractal until we get to the goodies.

Galen Grey.4709:

Not really. the same thing happens in real life and I doubt anyone would consider the real world a dying world just because events happen and then they’re gone.

For the record, I’d buy the crap out of a machine that allowed me to re-experience any moment of my life.

“More relevant/less crazy” talk: Overall, I’d like to hope people could suspend their disbelief at the cost of allowing new/old players a chance at missed content.

How is that any different then joining Gw2 today and never getting the opportunity to take part in the motlen alliance invasion?

Erm, the MA stuff is gameplay that actually existed..?

Like I said, semantics. No one wins!

And still completely beside the point.

Wooden Potatoes on Living Story and expansions, possibly relevant to many interests, certainly relevant to the thread:

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Draco.2806:

Vayne.8563:

You people don’t know the difference between annecdotal evidence and eye witness testimony.

Of course – that’s because they’re the same thing.

Witness testimony has zero value if not corroborated by evidence or cross-referenced against other examples of witness testimony. A word by itself is worth less than nothing.

Not necessarily true. Witnesses are heard and taken on face value, unless they’re a reason not to believe them.

For example, I couldn’t actually say I know someone who knows someone in court, because in court, that would be considered hearsay and inadmissible. I could very well say I saw something. It may be accepted or not accepted, but it’s not against the rules.

How in your mind are those the same thing?

Anecdotal and eye witness testimony is the same thing.

Anecdotal- I have only ever seen it rain when it is dark, therefor it only rains when it is dark. Anecdotal evidence is taken from personal experience and is generally not backed up by long term observation over an extended period of time. It’s the same thing as saying “The game must be dying/growing because my guild/LA/instance has seen a marked growth/decline/overflow/non overflow”.

Any anecdotal evidence must be taken with a grain of salt (or a shaker full). Just because you see something or hear something does not make it true.

Eye witness testimony is taken in the exact same manner. Five eye witnesses to a crime may see totally different things and corroboration is usually needed to make eye witness testimony worthwhile. “Two individuals said the suspect was heavyset and in their mid 40’s, while two others said the suspect was lean and very young”. Can these eyewitness accounts all be true? To the person giving the account they are true (assuming total honesty on the witnesses part), but in a courtroom or to someone who wasn’t there this evidence is worthless.

Anecdotal and eye witness accounts are the same thing.

And as far as it goes for Devs lying, I can easily bring up evidence to show them saying one thing and doing the exact opposite or just outright lying. Implementation of Ascended gear is probably the easiest example.

Yes, but you weren’t there for THIS conversation and I was. You can say anything you want. If this dev was going to lie to me, he’d have painted some things in a much different light. I keep saying it and people keep ignoring it.

I wonder why.

This guy wasn’t trying to paint a rosy red picture of the game or the company.

No clue about what the dev did or did not say. It just doesn’t matter what the dev did or did not say.

For what it’s worth, I believe you. But, again, it doesn’t matter to the overall scheme of the discussion if I do or do not. It still breaks down to anecdotal evidence. And the thing being discussed wasn’t hearsay and eye witness testimony. It was eye witness testimony and anecdotal evidence.

“Pics or it didn’t happen!” I always screencapped when I was talking to someone ‘official’ about something awesome, like when I spoke to Gayle Grey about her favorite Monty Python, or some of the funny GMs from WoW. All lost on a misplaced harddrive…

This forum would have a field day with the other stuff the dev said. No reason to give anyone ammunition. And no, I don’t go around screenshotting convos. I’d personally consider it rude without consent, unless someone was being abusive.

That’s fine, dandy, and commendable, but as such I can take what you’re saying at face value as much as I can for someone saying they spoke to a dev that said they’ll be putting in a subscription – meaning I can’t take it at face value, really. This isn’t to say I’d rather you took screenshots and posted them, mind you.

Knote.2904:

Vayne.8563:

Knote.2904:

Vayne.8563:

SAB isn’t temporary…it’s just not there all the time. The Flame and Frost dungeon that was temporary. SAB comes back periodically.

That means it’s temporary…..

Ummm no. Wrestling isn’t on every night, but that doesn’t mean it’s temporary. Baseball stops for 9 months a year, that doesn’t mean it’s temporary.

Temporary means something that is there for a while and it’s gone. Things that come in cycles aren’t usually considered temporary.

No one I know says spring is temporary. Because there’ll always be another spring.

That’s still temporary… It’s there temporarily for spring, then gone, then back again…. temporarily..

Wth is this.

This. Is. Semantics!

And pretty pointless to the discussion. So, to rekindle something more in line with the topic: Why should something like SAB not be permanent?

I agree heavily with the OP. “Little things” like this can make it all the more easier to get ‘in character’ and become ever more immersed in the game world.

Part of that is why I always talk to heart givers before and after I complete their task. Otherwise I just feel horribly disconnected from what I’m doing.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Draco.2806:

Vayne.8563:

You people don’t know the difference between annecdotal evidence and eye witness testimony.

Of course – that’s because they’re the same thing.

Witness testimony has zero value if not corroborated by evidence or cross-referenced against other examples of witness testimony. A word by itself is worth less than nothing.

Not necessarily true. Witnesses are heard and taken on face value, unless they’re a reason not to believe them.

For example, I couldn’t actually say I know someone who knows someone in court, because in court, that would be considered hearsay and inadmissible. I could very well say I saw something. It may be accepted or not accepted, but it’s not against the rules.

How in your mind are those the same thing?

Anecdotal and eye witness testimony is the same thing.

Anecdotal- I have only ever seen it rain when it is dark, therefor it only rains when it is dark. Anecdotal evidence is taken from personal experience and is generally not backed up by long term observation over an extended period of time. It’s the same thing as saying “The game must be dying/growing because my guild/LA/instance has seen a marked growth/decline/overflow/non overflow”.

Any anecdotal evidence must be taken with a grain of salt (or a shaker full). Just because you see something or hear something does not make it true.

Eye witness testimony is taken in the exact same manner. Five eye witnesses to a crime may see totally different things and corroboration is usually needed to make eye witness testimony worthwhile. “Two individuals said the suspect was heavyset and in their mid 40’s, while two others said the suspect was lean and very young”. Can these eyewitness accounts all be true? To the person giving the account they are true (assuming total honesty on the witnesses part), but in a courtroom or to someone who wasn’t there this evidence is worthless.

Anecdotal and eye witness accounts are the same thing.

And as far as it goes for Devs lying, I can easily bring up evidence to show them saying one thing and doing the exact opposite or just outright lying. Implementation of Ascended gear is probably the easiest example.

Yes, but you weren’t there for THIS conversation and I was. You can say anything you want. If this dev was going to lie to me, he’d have painted some things in a much different light. I keep saying it and people keep ignoring it.

I wonder why.

This guy wasn’t trying to paint a rosy red picture of the game or the company.

No clue about what the dev did or did not say. It just doesn’t matter what the dev did or did not say.

For what it’s worth, I believe you. But, again, it doesn’t matter to the overall scheme of the discussion if I do or do not. It still breaks down to anecdotal evidence. And the thing being discussed wasn’t hearsay and eye witness testimony. It was eye witness testimony and anecdotal evidence.

“Pics or it didn’t happen!” I always screencapped when I was talking to someone ‘official’ about something awesome, like when I spoke to Gayle Grey about her favorite Monty Python, or some of the funny GMs from WoW. All lost on a misplaced harddrive…

Well it’s certainly not permanent, which I think is more to thepoint.

Dungeons, exploring the world. That’s been about it for me, really. There’s a lot to explore and a lot of dungeons to do, but not much reason to go back to them.

In regards to temporary content, I still don’t agree with it. It works perfectly for active players. It does nothing for returning and new. I also don’t think it’s healthy for the people making the content, either. I’d imagine it can be taxing putting your best into something that will literally be gone after a few weeks. I’d rather they focus their effort into making pieces of the game that’re worthy of sticking around forever.

I get trying to encourage ‘active play’, but at the cost of deleting content?

fellyn.5083:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Aurust.8961:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

fellyn.5083:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Aurust.8961:

The devs have said many times that ascended is the final level of gear.

Yeah? They also said there wouldn’t be a new carrot to chase every 6 months and then promptly added another tier of gear 2 months after launch.

And that’s held true.

Oh? So they didn’t release a statistically better tier of gear walled behind a ridiculous time gate 2 months after launch in an obvious carrot-shaped attempt to keep people playing?

Yes, 2 months after launch because they realized that exotic was to easy to get…. and there had to be something between legendary and exotic.

And yet they held for years in GW1 without ever increasing the maximum strength of equipment, despite it being possible, in Nightfall, to equip a level 2 with max gear.
Also, what gap between legendary and exotic? They were the same stats. They could have added some more “tiers” of skins of varying increasing costs without dumping a pointless stat increase on it.

I’m sure you’re aware of this but GW2 is a completely different game than GW1. I’m really not sure why people think that just because a thing was a certain way in GW1 it should be the exact same in GW2.

The gap is the investment in how long it takes to get. Before ascended stuff one of the biggest complaints we saw on the forums the first 2 months after release was that exotics were to easy to get.

What was wrong with this?

Raine.1394:

Probably the best option for Anet in terms of Ascended gear would be a clear statement that the experiment with vertical progression was stopping with it when fully implemented. Many people are operating from the understanding that Ascended is the end of the road in terms of power creep. It isn’t. They made it clear with the introduction of Ascended gear that what they were adding to the game was not a final tier, but rather vertical progression.

So, stopping VP with Ascended would allow them to correct course (towards skill/ability progression) and save face around the whole Ascended debacle. It could be the final tier of gear and end of power creep. However, they have never said that it would be, to date, and there is no reason to assume that vertical progression will stop. Stopping is not within the definition of vertical progression.

Yeup. The stat bonuses don’t have to end with the gear. And if worst comes to worst, they can butter up some PR, say “whoops, sorry” and add more gear anyways. It’s an MMO, after all, things change all the time.

eisberg.2379:

again, if ascended was already in the game as is on the day the game launched, people wouldn’t be complaining about it. Didn’t see people complain about there being Fine, Masterwork, Rare, Exotic gear.

.

Admittedly, I probably wouldn’t have spent the 300 or so gold I made on skins had I known that it could’ve been spent to buy more damage :p

Vayne.8563:

Pariah.8506:

Draknar.5748:

How can I decrease my fun factor to a more appropriate level, more in-line with the forums’ viewpoints,

You can go play Anet’s previous game and realise what could have been.

I played Guild Wars 1 for five years. It was a great game. In many ways, it was a better game than Guild Wars 2.

And in many ways Guild Wars 2 is a better game than Guild Wars 1.

I know a lot of Guild Wars 1 players have these rose colored glasses, but you know, I felt like I was this ranger, exploring the wild, and I’d come up to a log look at it mournfully, knowing I couldn’t step over it and I had to turn around. Some ranger I was.

I’m not sure what “rose colored glasses” and not being able to jump have to do with the game being “bad”. My friend was the same, he couldn’t get into Guild Wars simply because he wanted a game with more movement. Same reason he couldn’t get into Eve.

I’m not denying that it was a failure, though. As another GW1 friend of mine put it, the saddest thing about it is that its greatness did not last long. They made a horde of mistakes, starting with their first expansion.

Buttercup.5871:

Vayne.8563:

You’re right. You shouldn’t have to keep at at all…and you don’t have to keep up. There’s no reason to keep up. All the content can be done in rares, never mind exotics. The only exception is high level fractals which aren’t really casual content anyway.

MMOs need content for everyone. Saying a game is casual friendly doesn’t mean a casual should be able to do everything in the game.

As it is, a casual can still do most things in the game. There’s plenty of stuff to keep casual players busy.

What casual players shouldn’t be doing is stopping Anet from coming out with more challenging content for everyone else.

After all 90% plus of this game is casual.

Wow. I very rarely agree with Vayne. But I think Vayne is making a very, very good point here which goes to the very heart of this discussion.

What do you need ascended weapons for? Ask yourself this question, and answer it truthfully. Think about it.

You need it for very limited content that is not designed to be played by casuals. What people fail to acknowledge is that that’s ok. There can and should be content that is not designed to be bested by everyone. It’s healthy, and it gives everyone in the game something to strive for.

Let go of this concept that anyone should be able to achieve everything this game has to offer. Just let go, it’s OK.

Dunno if I’d consider Ascended weapons as “hardcore” content. It might take awhile to get one but that’s it. I’d actually consider it the opposite of hardcore, honestly.

Harper.4173:

You can’t undo ascended.
A great deal of the player base has invested time and resources into this gear.
A lot of players have left because of its introduction. Those players aren’t coming back.
The way i see it – whoever was going to leave because of it has done it already – when they announced it or immediately after when we were all grinding for ascended rings in FOTM.
Whoever is left is staying – regardless of ascended. Those who leave now just as the last bits ( armor ) are being added in are a very small fraction who I don’t honestly think the devs care about.

They’ve gone all-in with this one and honestly I think they’ve won.
They’ve kept players engaged and playing when otherwise the end-game content would have been burned out long ago.
I don’t think I would still be touching dungeons if I didn’t need gold for my ascended.

I’d have to agree with this unfortunate turn of events.

I think the most they can do at this point – which I hope they do at a later point – is make ascended easier to get much further down the road: People who aimed for it initially would have it by that point, and it could incite interest for people that considered them a bother.

I also have a gut feeling that all ascended gear would be easier to get once all the legendary gear is in. Of course, I have another gut feeling that that wouldn’t be the end to our vertical progression.

Jatacid.3725:

Heres an idea, how about we put all dungeons into one big ‘pool’. Kinda like how there are many different types of Fractals that can be run at random.

So then you could start something called like ‘Random Dungeon Dice Roll’ from the LFG.

When you start, you basically have a random dungeon and path chosen for you out of all the possible options in the pool.

When you finish the dungeon – you get to choose the type of reward token you actually want.

I think this would really encourage people to join in on some gaming and play some dungeons that they may not necessarily need to farm for.

What do you think?

Randomized/endless dungeon delving makes me all gooey inside. It’s why I’m going crazy for Dragon’s Crown at the moment. I’d love to see something similar in GW2.

Edit: Ah, I see I kind of read a bit too much into it. Still think it’s a great idea, though.

Wasn’t their policy on Texmod for GW2 similar to what it was for GW1? I’ll start looking around for anything about that.

Edit:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros

Of course I’m not sure if Texmod still works for GW2, but then again I’m not sure why it wouldn’t? But if it does you should be fine using it.

And yeah, hell yes to modding

Afya.5842:

Just let me forge 16 of those crap stones into one real rock.

I’m 100% down with this, and it’d make the character customization way less tedious than it currently is.

I’ve said it before – so I’ll say it again, wee!

I’d have far less of an issue with ascended gear if it wasn’t unreasonable to get it.

Or if the effects of it were more negligible than it seems like they’re going to be.

Vayne.8563:

The problem with stuff like this is to define meaningful content…

Given that these “rewards” are “content” accessed by repeating what’s mostly year old content, I’d say the “meaning” is pretty circumstantial. If you’re not much a fan of repeating content and/or you already played through it at some point awhile ago, then these rewards are going to lack a lot of meaning.

I consider the LS updates to contain far more meaningful content than any of the pieces of loot they’ve added to the game combined.

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

Always nice to see such enthusiasm!

If you were having fun with GW2 when you left you’ll very likely enjoy it now. And you arrived just in time to use the LFG tool that was recently released!

I miss my customizable UI and first person camera ;_;

Vayne.8563:

Tom Gore.4035:

champ.7021:

Vayne.8563:

Funny my friends list is full of people who said 100% they’re not coming back. Most of them came back.

Odd thing that.

Yes it is odd that when Anet focuses on only one kind of player they lose part of the population and keep the other. Very odd indeed.

The problem is if they try to focus on every kind of player they aren’t actually focusing on any kind of player.

I agree with you. They’re not trying to focus at all. They’re trying to provide a variety of experiences for a variety of different types of players.

So the more styles of play you enjoy, the more you’re likely to enjoy the game. I do some of everything, thus I enjoy the game.

Those who focus just on dungeons, are probably not going to stay around forever. But they might come try new dungeons when they come out.

I think there are enough people in the middle for this to work.

It’s the same reason sandbox games are popular. Take any one “facet” of gameplay out of Saints Row or GTA as is and it’d be pretty bland – like if all you could do in those games was shooting people. Its way different when it’s just one out of a horde of things to do. If all you wanted to do was shoot people or have street races, there are games for that.

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

With all this arguing about MMO X vs MMO Y I think we’re losing sight of the point that ArenaNet kittened off a whole bunch of people with this Ascended gear – both in principle (prefer skill-based vs gear-based) and in practice (don’t like grinding mats/crafting/whatever in order to prepare to have fun).

I can say that many players who get kittened off at one game go find another.

Yep. Many players. And many players have stayed. This has been my point all along.

No one knows how many people would have left if Anet stayed the course. It’s not possible to know.

In your mind you believe Anet is losing more players than they’re keeping. I don’t believe that’s true…and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either. A dev has told me concurrency numbers are on the rise and have been for some time.

I agree you were screwed over by the changes…but that doesn’t make them bad changes. They’re just changes that don’t work for people who share your sentiments.

I don’t know if they’re losing more than they’re gaining or not. I do know they lost me. So if anyone’s keeping track of numbers, they can add +1 to the tally.

I was getting away from that losing vs gaining argument, not adding to it. How ’bout we get back on topic?

Edit: And Vayne, stop putting words in my mouth. You do that virtually every time you quote someone. It’s no wonder people get on your case so much.

You said “many players get kittened off”..and while that’s no doubt true, if those players are a minority, then your point is moot.

What’s his point? I thought the extent of what he was saying was just that he and some other players were upset with the direction of the game.

It’s not just that some players are kittened off and it’s not about one post. The faction that is kittened off are saying (including Chuo) that this was a huge portion of the player base. It wasn’t just like her and a couple of friends. It was a lot of people.

Alright. But is that what he said right there? I could only gather from that post that he and other people are upset with the game.

What he said right there is no different than what he said in countless other threads. People are mad. We’ve known those people were mad since last November. They’ve been made since then…at a game they’re disappointed in.

The direction of the game changed…no one denies it. Ten months on and they’re still mad. They come to the forums of this game to complain about ascended gear..that was announced last November. You’d think by now they’d have figured out that the game has changed, it’s not for them, and they’d find a game that was.

Because saying OMFG there’s vertical progression in the game for ten months solves what? Is Anet going to stop and take it all out tomorrow?

I don’t like the vertical progression either. I’m not in complete disagreement with what’s being said. The only difference is, I’m not taking the inclusion of vertical progression as a personal attack. Anet saw a problem, Anet moved to fix the problem. I don’t agree it was the best solution by ten months on? I think people would have moved on by now, instead of hanging around to complain on a forum over a change that was announced so long ago.

Even I think the game is too grindy. So?

I’m just not sure what “made his point moot”. “For what it’s worth I’m upset with the game and so are other people” was pretty much the extent of it, that was his ‘point’, and I don’t think he’s wrong. “Many players who get ticked off go play something else” is pretty self-evident, and the fact that they’re able to keep releasing content is a heavy indication that they’re making enough cash to sustain themselves.

Funny my friends list is full of people who said 100% they’re not coming back. Most of them came back.
Odd thing that

My friend’s list is full of inactives, I’ve left a third “dead” guild, and my server’s felt a lot emptier as of late. But I don’t think it a sign of “doom and gloom”, rather that people eventually get bored of games, and this game in particular is a year old. I ran into the same thing with GW1.

So, while I’m encountering far less activity than I used to, I’m also not seeing anything wrong with it.

fellyn.5083:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Poledo.3256:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

So by “just playing” I have 300 dust, 10 dragonite ore, 20 fragments, and 15 dark matter. I’ll have an ascended weapon by October 2014 at this rate.

I went ahead and tried to get dragonite ore. I found that I had to sit around and watch timers in addition to getting to an area early in order to avoid being dumped into overflow. Then I got to mill around, bored, while waiting for the world boss/event and then I got to fail along with everyone else in the group and got nothing.

Enthralling game design right there.

Yes and no. Up until recently you weren’t really missing anything by not attending boss events. Therefore you argument would be invalid about having to camp in zones to beat overflows and stand around bored. However now that we have dragonite from world bosses it’s validated. Sure you CAN get it elsewhere, but expect to have enough by Christmas if you are just getting it from world chests a few at a time.

WvW seems to be a good way to get the mats. I don’t do WvW though. However I have also made two ascended weapons as of last night so it’s not a challenge for me. I do empathize with you though and understand the frustration.

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from…

Do the previous posts seen here answer your question?

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

With all this arguing about MMO X vs MMO Y I think we’re losing sight of the point that ArenaNet kittened off a whole bunch of people with this Ascended gear – both in principle (prefer skill-based vs gear-based) and in practice (don’t like grinding mats/crafting/whatever in order to prepare to have fun).

I can say that many players who get kittened off at one game go find another.

Yep. Many players. And many players have stayed. This has been my point all along.

No one knows how many people would have left if Anet stayed the course. It’s not possible to know.

In your mind you believe Anet is losing more players than they’re keeping. I don’t believe that’s true…and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either. A dev has told me concurrency numbers are on the rise and have been for some time.

I agree you were screwed over by the changes…but that doesn’t make them bad changes. They’re just changes that don’t work for people who share your sentiments.

I don’t know if they’re losing more than they’re gaining or not. I do know they lost me. So if anyone’s keeping track of numbers, they can add +1 to the tally.

I was getting away from that losing vs gaining argument, not adding to it. How ’bout we get back on topic?

Edit: And Vayne, stop putting words in my mouth. You do that virtually every time you quote someone. It’s no wonder people get on your case so much.

You said “many players get kittened off”..and while that’s no doubt true, if those players are a minority, then your point is moot.

What’s his point? I thought the extent of what he was saying was just that he and some other players were upset with the direction of the game.

It’s not just that some players are kittened off and it’s not about one post. The faction that is kittened off are saying (including Chuo) that this was a huge portion of the player base. It wasn’t just like her and a couple of friends. It was a lot of people.

Alright. But is that what he said right there? I could only gather from that post that he and other people are upset with the game.

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

With all this arguing about MMO X vs MMO Y I think we’re losing sight of the point that ArenaNet kittened off a whole bunch of people with this Ascended gear – both in principle (prefer skill-based vs gear-based) and in practice (don’t like grinding mats/crafting/whatever in order to prepare to have fun).

I can say that many players who get kittened off at one game go find another.

Yep. Many players. And many players have stayed. This has been my point all along.

No one knows how many people would have left if Anet stayed the course. It’s not possible to know.

In your mind you believe Anet is losing more players than they’re keeping. I don’t believe that’s true…and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either. A dev has told me concurrency numbers are on the rise and have been for some time.

I agree you were screwed over by the changes…but that doesn’t make them bad changes. They’re just changes that don’t work for people who share your sentiments.

I don’t know if they’re losing more than they’re gaining or not. I do know they lost me. So if anyone’s keeping track of numbers, they can add +1 to the tally.

I was getting away from that losing vs gaining argument, not adding to it. How ’bout we get back on topic?

Edit: And Vayne, stop putting words in my mouth. You do that virtually every time you quote someone. It’s no wonder people get on your case so much.

You said “many players get kittened off”..and while that’s no doubt true, if those players are a minority, then your point is moot.

What’s his point? I thought the extent of what he was saying was just that he and some other players were upset with the direction of the game.

The end fight for it was kind of neat, but that’s only because of my fond memories for Ornstein and Smough.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Straw man argument. You’re discussing about two completely different ages of gaming, and gaming content, and gaming inclusions. You didn’t even have crafting in Gw1. It’s exactly the same as telling someone, “Lol you bought Word2007 for twice as much and it lacked the features word 2010 had and I got it for the same price”.
You can’t compare apples to apples when one set of apples is ten years older and the farming techniques and methods of growing those apples were from a preceding decade.

And yet these ten year old apples are still delicious! I love analogies!

I mirror alot of your concerns, OP. I actually made a post in another thread sharing a similar view.

On the topic of the dungeons themselves: They are bar-none my favorite part of the game, and I’d love to see more. I found them satisfying, fun, and provided some of the most memorable social experiences.

Of course, they’re still in need of a lot, a whooooole lot of work.

fellyn.5083:

Ascended materials were put into literally every part of the game except for spvp. You have to go out of your way at this point to not get ascended materials. I just don’t understand.

Is there any new content I’d have to experience once through to acquire said materials? Or would I have to replay content that I’ve exhausted months ago? If “no” and “yes” I can definitely understand why people can feel as if they’re running into “grind”.

Might be worth mentioning that I’m not a huge fan of WvW either.

Vayne.8563:

snippet
So are you saying nothing fun to do has been added to the game?

For me, I wouldn’t say so. I came into GW2 with the hopes of highly customizable and hopefully challenging content. These were facets I enjoyed greatly when I was into GW1, and although it wasn’t too difficult there was still loads of ways to play it. GW2 hasn’t been anywhere near as challenging as GW1, and it certainly lacks the variety it had as well.

This is not to say I consider the price I bought it at to be wasted. It was fun, the dungeons were fun, the quests were fun, exploring through areas was fun, some of the updates were fun (sans the ones I missed, yay temp content), there is loads of fun to be had. I just don’t think any of it holds any replay value. While this is usually the case with PvE, there’ve been many other games that I’ve found fulfilling for a much longer period of time.

So in regards to the OP, I’m in a very similar situation: The mountain of tasks I’d have to do is not encouraging in the slightest, as such I’m fairly positive I’ll never get any of this new gear. Won’t be an issue if I’m not enjoying the game anymore, of course, but it was nice having those sixteen pieces of gear be BiS while it lasted. And should they add something that does pique my interest, I won’t have to go through any ‘resubscribing’ process.

I really liked that everything in GW1 all used the same skillpool, even though they moved further away from this with each expansion. I feel that the AI in both games is kind of crap, but the enemy composition in GW1 was far more interesting.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Time Gating = Players logging in daily = Players getting bored/frustrated/annoyed/burnt out = Players logging in less = Game noticeably stalling = Shareholders become upset = More extreme measures are taken to retain players = Game become unplayable = Small set of core gamers remain = ANet pulls plug.

Time-gating is a short term solution that doesn’t have sustainability. Whenever you “force” players to play the game your way, it will serve only to drive them away.

Players want to log in because they like to, not because they feel they have to.

If ANet truly wants to retain their player base, and expand, they need to stop thinking with their bank accounts, and start thinking with their gamer hats. When they start releasing well done, well tested, and well written content, players will show up. When they start creating a reason beyond gear/achievement chasing, people will become emotionally attached to the game.

When they stop trying to sucker us all into buying gems, and just offer well done, well tested, and awesome things for sale, players will support the game.

RNG, Living World (bugs, release speed, shallowness, focus on achievements, etc), bugs, insta-kill mechanics, PvP neglect, grind, time-gating, focus on gear over fun, reliance on farming, etc….these will kill the game.

Lovin’ this post big time.

I didn’t get this a whole lot either. Is it some sort of balance mechanic? It kind of feels like it encourages holding W down for most of the time.

Most MMOs seem to do this, too. I wish there was an option to ‘run forward’ in any direction you press. I like how Cryptic’s been doing it with their MMOs.

It’s going to be quite interesting to see how players react towards the push for harder content combined with the addition of better gear.

They’ve said no, but things can change. I wouldn’t count on it anytime soon, though. It certainly seems possible, it’d just take a lot of ‘turning X into Y’, a LOT of that.

I’d imagine something that’d make it easier is if you can only use the race change after, say, level 30, where the personal story stops being ‘personal’ :p

Strange that you need WvW map completion and not dungeon completion.

Lonesamurai.4852:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Lonesamurai.4852:

You’re right, it WAS grind… IF you didn’t play it smart

Like I’ve said three times now, ESPECIALLY with Nightfall, if you did the bounties while clearing the map and exploring for the map clearance, you cleared loads of birds at once, not to mention over numerous characters, even the 10k Sunspear faction was quick to get

Even this way, with multiple chars, people still preferred the lb/ss farm run because it was faster and more lucrative. Yes, it did not have to be a grind, but many perceived it as such. The same issue is happening here with ascended. It does not have to be a grind, but most perceive it as being so. And again, wholly optional. Unless you are doing high level fractals (and even then) exotics are still more then enough for all other content.

100% with you there, perception is a major factor

Likewise. I’m sure the journey for an Ascended weapon would probably a lot more appealing for someone newer to – or in love with! – the game. As for myself, I’ve already mentioned the position I’m in in a previous post: 57 weaponsmithing with zilch in the bank. I’m primarily a PvE player, I’ve already played through the dungeons, and I don’t see any appeal in repeating content. As such, that “journey” is going to be a heavily tiring task.

Namu.5712:

I have 4 ascended weapons as of now.

We are barely going on 2 weeks of play. If you call that a grind and horrible well you haven’t played many mmo’s.

Well you can’t call it anything, really. “I have four weapons over 2 weeks” isn’t a whole lot to go on, doesn’t provide much context. What I do know is that you’re far better off than I am, though

Namu.5712:

dont even bring up “well in gw1 you didn’t have to grind” Actually you did just wasn’t for gear it was for something that also increases stats.

I’m sure that many would argue how different of a beast GW1 became after it’s expansions.

stof.9341:

Vayne.8563:

Well, I got my first ascended weapon today. The part of found the most grindy was leveling my crafting to 500. Beyond that, I didn’t think the grind was particularly bad. In fact, it’s a lot less grindy than I first thought it was.

But leveling three crafts to 500 is unnecessarily punishing to more casual players. Particularly because you’ll need a lot of the same mats for each craft. It’s a lot of farming (and I hate farming).

I don’t know when I’ll get around to leveling my artificer and my huntsman to 500, because I have to recover financially from leveling my weaponsmith up.

It wasn’t cheap.

Indeed. That’s for me the core of the complaint. Draining that much resources from my savings just to level ONE craft to 500 is hardly bridging the gap between exotics and legendaries, it’s making it bigger.

The ascended weapon crafting part once we are 500 is still too expensive in common mats but just that. One reason I wasn’t too bothered by the rings once they were put in is because I could get them while doing other stuff. I could get them while working towards a legendary because all it took was doing Fractal runs which did loot. Same for necklace. The earrings on the other hand it started going downhill fast. Weapons are the worse :/

My weaponsmithing is currently at 57, I got little to no mats and about 4 gold in my name. Ascended weapons are pretty much out of the question for me.

Red Falcon.8257:

snip And the final deal is that GW2 does not need to be like a traditional MMO, since it isn’t.

It certainly doesn’t, but I’d be totally fine if it was more alike to its predecessor, which certainly wasn’t traditional. I’d personally say it was less traditional than GW2, even.

Raine.1394:

I played primarily DPS in WoW for years and never spent an hour in a queue. 10 minutes maybe, sometimes a bit longer. Bottom line, I never spent more time getting a group together in trinity games than I do in GW2. Never.

I primarily played a tank and was never in queue for more than 10 seconds, zing! What blew my mind was most of the DPS I ran with ended up being Deathknights or Warriors. I cried whenever one of them said “wow finally”.

I REALLY don’t like their animations. I don’t like being forced on all fours just to run, I don’t like the way they hold one handed weapons at the pommel, I don’t like their sideways hobble when they run with weapons unseathed, and a lot of their attack animations just seem a bit lazy. All of this on top of armor clipping and weird stretching. Not the biggest fan of the common ‘hunched back’ look, either.

Nothing’s wrong with the trinity, “fighter+thief+mage” is a tried and true concept in RPGs, even in many other genres (although they’re not named the same, of course!)

Nothing’s wrong with what GW2’s doing either. The attempt to make ‘everyone viable’ is a good goal.

It’s the common “tank+dps+heals” approach to the trinity that can put me to sleep. GW2’s approach to ‘lack of roles’ results in the loss of a lot of depth.

Either approach is fine. There just still needs to be depth.

Also, I think a few should be reminded of what the OP says near the end:

“Even if you don’t, would you think that having a holy trinity AND a system that avoids “GLF HEALER” all the time would actually add some more depth to the game?”

It’s certainly not a clone of WoW, but I do think it follows trends I didn’t like seeing in MMOs.

Vayne.8563:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Vayne.8563:

You can eat your steak if you want.

For a short while, perhaps. Once ascended armor comes out, they’ll start tuning content to that gear level. Then, when the next tier of gear comes out, they’ll tune to that. And so on. Pretty soon, that steak will be off the menu.

In one short year, they went from "Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.” to “Here, everyone: chase the shiny lewtz, just like you did in all those other games.” ’Tis a shame.

Enjoy your tuna noodle casserole.

I don’t believe there’ll be a next tier of gear. Simply put, the game will have enough stickiness by then where it won’t be necessary.

Anything can change at any point in time. I’m not saying there will be another gear tier, I’m not really referencing any specific change in particular, rather I’d encourage the mindset of “expect the worse, hope for the best”, especially in an MMO. I wouldn’t want to wish the disappointment I’ve experienced on anyone else, and if it happened to me, “it could happen to you” (thank you, based J-Roc).

TooBz.3065:

I think you pretty well covered it. I find that alts also add a bit of fun, but usually only for a new class for 20 levels or so.

Seconded, although I’d put dungeons in the “fun once” section due to how static they are.

Newly released content is always worth looking into as well.

I didn’t read the op as having the “sole intent” of making dodging “irrelevant” or “taking a more GW1 approach” to the game. Rather, I saw it as him providing solutions and situations that makes more use of the wide variety of tools, abilities, and mechanics already present in the game. Hence the title, signifying and highlighting that the biggest, perhaps only emphasized “skill” to PvE is only being able to dodge.

I’m totally down for a more complex and thus more potentially interesting PvE.