BlaqueFyre.5678:

Who is to say Malycks tree wasn’t corrupted? We know absolutely nothing about him besides he came from the Heart of Maguuma(where Mordremoth rose) he is not connected to the Dream of Dreams(similar to Mordremoth), he has knowledge he shouldn’t, how to behave, how to talk, how to dress, how to fight and so on he shouldn’t have any of that knowledge due to what we know of his tree that it is not part of the Dream of Dreams.

I’m starting to doubt you actually read what I wrote, especially since I already provided an explaination on how Malyck has the knowledge he has, and you even quoted me on this earlier.

If you try to follow my thought process, the Pale Tree wasn’t purified in any way (if you’re referring to the same “purification” Glint went through) mainly because there was nothing to purify in the first place! The Tree’s mind was nourished by Ronan and Ventari, slowly enriched by time, up to a point where it was powerful enough to stabilize a link with the Dream (the entity). However, all the trees that come from those seeds are connected to the Dream Realm, because that’s where their "children"’s minds spawn (including Malyck and its tree).

Again, Mordremoth is a separate entity from the Dream and the Nightmare, but the dragon seems to have a connection to the Dream Realm itself.

P.S. If you’re doubtful on why I differentiate between the Dream as an entity and the Dream as a Realm, I investigated that in another thread.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Your are under the assumption that the Seeds did not come from Mordremoth when their is nothing to suggest that, but there is slight evidence that they did with them being hairdos by monstrous plant creatures, their location in Maguuma, that Mordremoth has Blighting Trees.

One of the main points I made was that we don’t have an answer regarding the seeds’ origin, hence there’s nothing to suggest that they come directly from Mordremoth either. As I said previously, Mordremoth probably gathered the seeds (which are natural occurrences) and guarded them until its next rise in order to use them and corrupt them (but not until planted and grown because, as I said earlier, the seeds are in an embryonal stage and as such haven’t developed a mind yet for the dragon to subjugate).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The game has stated that sylvari are Mordremoths which could be why they wouldn’t be corruptible to other dragons, yes the Pale Tree defended against Mordremoths influence but that could be solely from the Seed being removed from mordremoths influence before is Sprouted and being tended by Ventari and his Magic.

Wynne stated that, and the Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted. If the Pale Tree was the only case of a “purified” Tree, then Malyck and its tree would not exist and I think this is proof of the seeds being natural occurrences, and it follows they’re corruptible by Mordremoth (and theoretically by other Elder Dragons too).

draxynnic.3719:

If that was an isolated case, then how did King Reza’s spirit end up in the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan?

All the scenarios you proposed are interesting and could have happened:

1) Reza’s ghost was floating around the sunken ruins of Orr from the Cataclysm until Zhaitan’s rise.

As I proposed earlier, the Cataclysm’s spell could possess similar features to the Foefire, being that both come from orrian artifacts: the blue flames are shared; the ability to trap souls on specific planes of existance could be another. So in this case, Reza’s spirit, like that of many others, would be constrained on Tyria (in order to assist the Undead Lich “work” of undead turning).

2) Reza was made into undead by the Cataclysm, and Zhaitan was able to corrupt him then.

This would provide an explanation to how the bodies survived all these years, but it seems the Cataclysm’s spell didn’t turn those invested into undead, if anything, as you pointed out, it generated an aura in the area to preserve the dead bodies (for the Undead Lich to use). Regarding specifically Reza, I doubt he was already turned undead when Zhaitan went looking for his body. He was firstly risen by Zhaitan.

3) Zhaitan was able to pull Reza’s spirit out of the afterlife just like the priest of Grenth.

I guess with afterlife you mean the Underworld. We know this scenario most likely happened with the Keeper of the Shrine, but, as I said before, it worked just when in vicinity of Grenth’s power (where access to spirits in the Underworld would be easier).

draxynnic.3719:

The Prophecies Manuscripts say that at least some Orrians rose as undead after the Cataclysm. Now, in-universe knowledge of what exactly happened in Orr between the Cataclysm and the start of postsearing Prophecies is dubious, so it’s possible that the undead we saw was animated by Khilbron.

Well, as you said information is unclear, so ultimately we can tend towards one explanation or another, and can’t be totally sure. Same can be said for the Vizier and the Scepter of Orr.

Ranael.6423:

The only way for Mordremoth to convert Sylvari was to hijack the Dream. If he could have used his trees for that, there would be no need of Trahearne as conduit. Also coming back to corruption, it’s worth noting that Mordremoth sent the Shadow of Dragon to destroy the Tree, not corrupt it. It seems he wanted to at least weaken her protection against him and be able to perform his Call. If he cold have corrupt her, it would have been a much more powerful weapon in the war to come.

Mordremoth seems to be linked to the Dream Realm from the start or if anything since Scarlet was exposed to the “Eternal Alchemy”. We don’t really know what the intent behind sending the Shadow of the Dragon was, but the Pale Tree would be very diffucult to corrupt (given she has a very strong mind in addition to being linked to the Dream), trying to weaken her is a good starting point; luckily we were there to stop it in time.

Ranael.6423:

But so far nothing points to Malyck as being a Dreamer (global term that also accounts for Nightmare court and Soundless in that case).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

With the Case of Malyck we know next to nothing besides his tree is supposedly in the Heart of Maguuma, and if he had no Dream of Dreams how did he have any concept or knowledge of language/right and wrong/ customs/fighting and so on, he would have been similar to an infant in all those aspects but he is shown as a fully functional/and knowledgeable person

We know Malyck is unconnected to the Dream, being born from a tree that itself is unconnected to the Dream, hence unable to guide its “children” (to recall the analogy, the tree’s mind is not developed enough), wasn’t helpful in that; nonetheless Malyck still spawned from the Mists (in the Dream Realm) and came to Tyria via a tree. There are some are some explanations on why it has a human form and basic knowledge:

1. The tree from which he was born came in contact with human templates and “learned” to replicate them, much like the Pale Tree is thought to have done.
2. The Mists themselves (in the Dream Realm), having been in contact with different templates for quite a while now, copied the human template (again, like what happened with Razah). Without a strong mind like that of the Pale Tree, the Dream (as in the entity) was unable to identify these other trees and their creations and stabilize a connection.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

Exactly, the Pale Tree, the Dream and the Nightmare help them resist all the Elder Dragons, not just Mordremoth; all those entities (Dream, Nightmare and Pale Tree) aid sylvari’s minds, they help making their minds stronger and more resistant. In theory any Elder Dragon could corrupt the silvary, but Mordremoth has an advantage over them: it is linked to the Dream Realm and its kind of magics are akin to those of the sylvari.

Ranael.6423:

But your starting point is to say the Pale Tree is the same than every other seeds in the cave, and that’s where I disagree. First because as you said Blighting Trees are not seen as having their own mind

But it is like the other Trees, they all come from the same seeds; the difference is in their minds. As an analogy, imagine taking three human beings (they are equal from the start): leave the first one on its own, isolating it (Malyck’s tree); instruct and nurture the second one (the Pale Tree); brainwash the third one (Blighting Trees). In the end they all have minds, but: the first will likely be a simple one; the second will be “improved”, ascended in a way; the third one will be subjugated to your will.
Again, while the Pale Tree is unique it originates from the same seeds as the other Trees. And I agree, its link to the Dream is also unique, we don’t see it happen with any other Tree (that’s what I meant with “there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree”, not that the Blighting Trees have no minds).

Ranael.6423:

Rangers are able to tap in nature magic, not necessary only plant magic. The spectra of magic that were available for creatures of Tyria to learn are not necessarily the same as the dragon ones. […] Moreover rangers trained their abilities to channel magic while every Sylvari is able to use their power. It is more innate in their case. Hence why I see that as a gift from Mordremoth.

I didn’t mean to say they use only plant magic but nature magic is more associated with altering the environment in a certain area by summoning spirits. Even though we’ve never really heard of plant magic, the summoning of vines seems to be just that; in general, it’s the ability to summon plants and shape them, and it’s a natural aspect of magic, regardless if it’s under the sphere of influence of an Elder Dragon (consider elementalists using fire magic: it’s not Primordus’s power, it’s a natural aspect of magic). Sylvari seem to have a natural advantage in using plant magic (given that they are themselves plants); would you say fire elementals, which naturally make use of fire magic, all come from Primordus?

There might be some basic primary magics (like red, blue and green being a set of primary colours), but ultimately there are many “colours” (and shades) of magic.

Ranael.6423:

Never said it was not separate. I noted (as Amaxtli did) that Mordremoth vines looked very similar to nigthmarish ones. This points to the direction that the power may originate from the same source sans the corruption component.

Of course the “power” originates from the same source: both sylvari (being them soundless, dreamers or “nightmarers”, or even from another tree) and Mordremoth use plant magic.

Even though the Dream and the Nightmare are separate entities from the Pale Tree, it’s as if they nurtured each other, growing and learning together on the way. Both the Dream and the Nightmare are separate entities to Mordremoth, and as such they reject it but all of them are entities fighting to rule over the Dream Realm; the sylvari (whom are created by the Mists and transported to the “flesh world” by the trees) can be influenced by all, main difference being that Mordremoth is determined to impose its will on other beings while the Dream and the Nightmare present them as a choice.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

[…] the Blighting Trees are the equivalent of the pale tree but have been infused with Death Magic.

While the Blighting Trees are similar to the Pale Tree, they are not identical. The Blighting Trees (which, on a side note, are actually corrupted) never display a projection of themselves like the Pale Tree does with its avatar.

It’s stated nowhere that they’re infused with death magic, that’s an assumption; while it’s known Mordremoth absorbed some of Zhaitan’s magic I think one of the rare cases where he utilizes said magic (death and shadow) happens in Bitter Harvest, with Logan and Zojja.

To continue, in Morwood Wilds (Auric Basin) we witness mordrem bringing deceased bodies to three Blighting Tree saplings for them to copy; I doubt the cloning process is a 1:1 ratio (1 corpse is needed to generate 1 mordrem) and the act of bringing corpses to the corrupted saplings (in order for them to copy said corpses) it’s more a way of teaching the still growing Blighting Trees how to replicate various templates. The Pale Tree itself learned how to copy humans and keeps giving birth to sylvari without the need of dead bodies. Ultimately, this is plant magic, not death magic.

Ranael.6423:

What I find weird in your theory is that Mordremoth could corrupt a full-grown tree but not a seed.

When I said the seeds are immature I was referring to the fact that in this embryonal stage they have not yet developed a mind of their own (simple as it could be) and hence the dragon can’t yet subjugate it; and yes, in Tyria some plants (if not all) have minds (the trees coming from these seeds in particular are not common trees), even some fungi do.

Ranael.6423:

[…] I think Sylvari hold some dragon power (if not corruption) solely based on the fact they are able to influence plant growth in order to make houses, clothing, or to change their body… which is made out of plant material.

Sylvari make use of plant magic which coincidentally is the same magic Mordremoth uses. By your reasoning, Rangers (and Druids) are using “the jungle dragon’s power” when summoning plants and vines; they’re not, they’re using plant magic, a natural aspect of magic.

Ranael.6423:

Those from the Nightmare actually grow plants that share some visual with Mordremoth creations (some NPC like Amoxtli noticed the resemblance).

The Nightmare is separate from Mordremoth.

Ranael.6423:

[…] the Pale Tree itself is not only a Tree. She exists in two different planes : Tyria and the Dream.

But it is, The Pale Tree is really just a Tree, that’s her physical form. Thing is her mind is very powerful (yes, these trees have minds) and was able to connect to the Dream, hence she’s present both in the physical world (Tyria) and in the Mists (the Dream).
She’s described as being a custodian of the Dream.

Ranael.6423:

I know the next question will be about Mallyck

A whole thread could be opened on Malyck, but I think the best explanation is that sylvari’s genesis is disturbingly similar to Razah’s genesis (read the very first quote in Razah’s wiki page).
Thing is, if we define sylvari as beings coming strictly from the Pale Tree, than Malyck shouldn’t even be treated as one; given that all these trees come from the same seeds, and that the Mists mimic humans when generating sylvari, then Malyck is a sylvari.

P.S. Again, all of this ties in with a couple of recent posts I made: The Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists and On dragon’s corruption – corruption overall.

When Ronan separated from his patrol he came across a cave guarded by terrible plant creatures. That cavern was filled with strange seed-pods; he managed to take one seed before fleeing. Little did he know that seed would turn out to grow into the Pale Tree, the tree from which the sylvari come into Tyria.

We’ve come to know from Wynne that the sylvari “come from the jungle dragon” that they “belong to it”, but what really is the origin of those seeds? We don’t really have an answer. We are brought to believe that those seeds somehow come from Mordremoth itself, either from the combined use of plant and mind magic or even from its own body. However if this was the case the seeds would’ve been corrupted from the start, a being like Malyck (and its tree) would not exist. The Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted.

There could be another explanation: the seeds (and, as a consequence, the plants from which they come from) exist in nature but aren’t corruptible by Mordremoth yet, because they are somehow immature in that stage. Mordrem (you know, the “terrible plant creatures” Ronan encountered) will then guard them, making sure they remain in the cave where Mordremoth gathered them.

If we let a seed grow by itself the result will be similar to Malyck’s tree: this resulting tree’s mind will be neutral in a sense (or sterile), not as evolved as the Pale Tree’s mind, which in contrast was enriched by Ronan and Ventari. On the other hand, when a tree gets corrupted by Mordremoth we will witness a Blighting Tree. By the way, there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree (referring to the entity’s mind, which also projects itself with an avatar), which is in its own unique.

In conclusion: like the seeds and the trees, sylvari are not Mordremoth’s creation. After all, Wynne also says: “we’re meant to serve it”; the jungle dragon intended to corrupt the trees (and what may come with them).

P.S. All of this can be linked to another thread I made about the Dream of Dreams being a Realm of the Mists.

—EDIT— Update on the whole idea (comment link)

I made a mistake when saying that we don’t see any other avatar associated to a Tree. We see Mordremoth itself, the very origin of the corruption, presenting to us in its avatar form once we’re in the Dream (the Realm). It itself was generated from one of those same seeds, it is one of those Trees and projects itself with a reptilian form, identifiable as a dragon, because those were the creatures populating Tyria a long way back. A similar helix to the one we see rotating in the Heart of Thorns (the PoI) can be spotted in the Grove, the actual body of the Pale Tree.
This still doesn’t imply however that the seeds came from him, since we know corrupted creatures can’t naturally reproduce, Elder Dragons in primis.
This would also provide a firmer explanation to why Mordremoth is able to enter the Dream of Dreams (the Realm) and communicate with the Realm’s creations.

@draxynnic: I’d argue that the pulling of the Keeper of the Shrine’s spirit from the Underworld is an isolated case: firstly the Keeper himself was strictly linked to Grenth (and, by the way, we see the Keeper’s own body being corrupted), secondly just in the Cathedral of Silence, being in the vicinity of Grenth’s powers (the god’s power is akin to that of Zhaitan), was the Elder Undead Dragon able to pull the Keeper’s spirit from the Underworld.

The only one transformed by the Cataclysm was the Vizier himself, who turned into the Undead Lich. Everyone else died as a consequence of the sinking (but not before being invested by the Cataclysm’s spell, which definitely did something to their souls); if anything the Lich might have later reanimated some orrians but couldn’t really control them without the Scepter of Orr (described as a staff that controls the mind world).

As we learn from Jutu, many of those slain by the Cataclysm were trapped in the Realm of Torment, but ultimately the bodies of his people were cursed to an underwater grave (not turning undead).

Regarding the Eyes of Zhaitan, we can clearly see King Reza’s body (and other orrian high nobles) being constrained behind the big eye (the eye itself could be part of Zhaitan’s body); the body was needed to Zhaitan.

P.S. To go back on the main topic, each Elder Dragon constrains the minds of those corrupted in the body; how they alter the body is the only thing that differs between them.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If it could sink Orr, then the buildings should be all badly damaged.

Orr sunk, that’s a fact.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Because they would all be vaporized and rot into nothing before Zhaitan’s Rise.

We know for a fact that Zhaitan needs corpses to spread its corruption (the Risen Wraiths might seem like an exception, but they’re in reality a result of undead humans transforming, as confirmed here). We know that when he awakened not only did he rise the nation of Orr from the sea, but he immediately formed an undead army. It follows that dead bodies must have been present on the former human nation once it was risen from the sea.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They were dragon creations, it’s very clear since it was revealed. They weren’t “corrupted” but born to be dragon minions.

You almost got it there when you said “born to be dragon minions”. They aren’t a creation of the dragon, in fact I doubt even the Trees are. Once awakened, he would just use them, exploit them, hence corrupt them.

Slowpokeking.8720:

It could be a possibility that the 2 are connected.

Frankly, I don’t see it as a possibility but, again, to each their own.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What? You mean the buildings are immune to the fire explosion? If the sunking could even damage the buildings that much, why would the bodies still be there after 100 years?

What kind of structural damage would you expect from a sudden burst of (magical) flames? Are you saying the sinking of an entire peninsula, comparable to an apocalyptic earthquake, is less likely to produce structural damage than some flames? And regarding the bodies the real question is: why there would not be remnants of the bodies, especially given the high amount of orrian risen seen deep in Orr (think about the various orrian nobles we encounter)? By the way the Cataclysm happened 258 years ago.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What every other creatures? Other than some plant, they were nothing but clones, they were not corrupted, but created directly by the dragon. Even Sylvari was not “corrupted”, they were dragon creations.

If anything it’s the Trees (like the physical Pale Tree) that may come from Mordremoth, the sylvari seem to spawn from the Dream (this gets out of topic, I explored this in another thread) and aren’t corrupted by Mordremoth when they’re born, not even Malyck was (who’s unconnected to the Pale Tree nor protected by it).
Don’t undervalue the plants, but I can think of a couple: the mordrem wolves and trolls. Anyway, every mordrem must be corrupted by Mordremoth before it can go through the cloning process.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They are and they resemble to DSD’s early concept a lot.

That’s an early concept art for something that’s not even been implemented in game yet nor does it have a clear description of how it looks, and honestly will resemble those serpentine creatures just if you really want it to.
Ultimately they really don’t resemble dragons, but to each their own.

Slowpokeking.8720:

But it did, Vizier and his tower might be still there due to them being in the central of the ritual. All the other buildings were very badly damaged.

Foefire was totally different than Cataclysm, it destroyed their bodies into dust but left their soul as ghost, which didn’t happen to Orr at all. Why would their bodies and soul still be there 100 years after the ritual? It makes little sense at all.

All the structural damages we see are a consequence of the sunking.
I’m not saying the Foefire and the Cataclysm are the same thing, I’m just suggesting that coming both from orrian artifacts some characteristics might be shared (for example, the blue flames are), specifically the binding to Tyria of the invested souls.

Slowpokeking.8720:

That’s not what happened with Mordremoth, according to that guy, Mordremoth control them and gave direct order to them. Without his influence, that guy regained his mind, he made clear that “He wanted to obey”, which mean it was the dragon giving order to them, but without the dragon, what to obey?

Again… the sylvari are unique creatures, their link to the Dream grants them a resistance to the dragon’s mind, but like every other creature when fully subjugated they’ll stay like that even after the dragon’s death (at least not until their minds get cleansed, like what happened with Twitchy, the purified undead chicken).

Slowpokeking.8720:

Abaddon had water formed dragon with him in the pics, the other gods didn’t.

I really don’t see how those creatures can be envisioned as dragons. If anything they resemble marine serpents and it would make sense, since Abaddon was the god of Water.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If the power was strong enough to sink the continent, there is no way flesh bodies could not being vaporized into dust. King Raza had been dead for more than 100 years when Zhaitan awoke, why would his soul still be there rather than went to the Underworld?

The Cataclysm didn’t act like an atomic bomb, we can witness the Vizier’s tower itself still being up anyway. Regarding the spirits still being linked to their bodies, I think what happened is similar in a way to what happened with the Foefire (which, by the way, was also caused by orrian magic): the souls invested by the Cataclysm were constrained on Tyria.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Under whose control? The dragon is dead. In one of the quests, a Mordrem guard would tell you he was always there, but could not control.

You quoted me before I was able to modify my sentence, since I noticed it could’ve been misinterpreted. Once a mind is subjugated it will remain so even after the dragon’s death. And again, the sylvari are a pretty unique case and the Mordrem guards you are mentioning where still struggling, not yet completely subjugated by the dragon.

Slowpokeking.8720:

But no dragon was present on any of their transformation. Abaddon himself don’t use serpent creatures as minions as well.

No idea what you’re talking about.

Slowpokeking.8720:

I don’t think all dragons corrupt beings in the same way.

The only difference is how they corrupt the body, which is dictated by their kinds of magic.

Slowpokeking.8720:

King Reza shouldn’t have got any “mind” cause he’s long dead, he shouldn’t even have his body due to the Cataclysm had blown even the entire Orr underwater. He should have been in the Underworld for a long while like many Orr people.

First off, the Cataclysm didn’t “blow up” Orr, it made it sink.
The remains of Reza’s body were still there, in Azabe Qabar, we know Zhaitan corrupted the body. And of course King Reza has a mind, it’s the mind, which projects itself as a spirit, that travels through the various Realms once the mortal body dies. Most likely Reza’s spirit was still confined to Tyria, still linked to its body.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Mordremoth control his minions with whisper, they knew what they were doing but could not help. I doubt they would remain under any control once it’s dead.

The whisper you are thinking about regards the singular relationship with the sylvari: the dragon slowly torments sylvari’s minds (by the way, sylvari are in a sense already imbued with plant and mind magic) until they’re weakened enough to fall to the dragon’s will.
And of course Mordrem’s minds remained constrained following Mordremoth’s death, we know that.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Interestingly, DSD might have some influence on Abaddon.

Really? The presence of serpentine creatures in those representations is a sign of Abaddon being influenced by the DSD? With this reasoning Melandru was influenced by Mordremoth because half of her body is made of “plants” (or even Balthazar being influenced by Primordus because he’s surrounded by flames). Doesn’t make sense.

The magic used by every single being, from the various races up to the most powerful entities, such as the Elder Dragons, is the same and comes from the same source: the various natural aspects of magic, mostly visible flowing through the ley lines. The more magic one possesses, the more powerful his influence on lesser beings will be, a fact demonstrable by the Elder Dragons’ spheres of influence. But what exactly is a sphere of influence?
Let’s consider Jormag, the Elder Ice Dragon: the immense amount of Ice Magic he absorbed not only transformed his physical appearance but granted him the ability to imbue other beings with this magic, transforming them and exposing them to his mind. While the Sons of Svanir worship Jormag, their minds aren’t really subjugated until their bodies are imbued with the dragon’s magic; as we can witness in the personal story step Mightier than the Sword the Sons of Svanir flee from their corrupted brother, Steag Frostbeard:

Steag Frostbeard: The Dragon’s Blood blade cannot be defeated! I will destroy you!
Son of Svanir: Run! He’s lost his mind! The sword will turn us all into monsters!

More than anything, I think the corruption regards the minds.

Let’s consider what Zhaitan did with King Reza: the Elder Undead Dragon firstly needed to imbue his body with death magic (possibly shadow magic too), transforming it, making it vulnerable to its influence; once the body was corrupted, it proceeded to subjugate Reza’s mind and ultimately control it, constraining it to persecute its will (it’s worth noting that this “mind corruption” will last even after the dragon’s death). Ultimately, only Caladbolg was able to cleanse Reza’s mind. To add on this, both Twitchy, the purified Undead Chicken, and Glint retained their corrupted body once their mind was cleansed.

So, the “sphere of influence” is the aspect of magic an Elder Dragon is able to impose its will on; before the equilibrium was broken, before Mordremoth and Zhaitan died, these “spheres” were finely distributed between the Elder Dragons (as they had countless millennia to adjust).

Let’s consider Primordus: destroyers are created by shaping elements related to the Fire Dragon’s magic, they can be considered elementals, or constructs, and as such their minds are subjugated from the start by Primordus. More recently we’ve witnessed destroyers displaying death and plant magic, but I doubt Primordus has full control over said magics, more specifically they’re not under its “sphere of influence”: he still needs to create destroyers first.

With all this knowledge, I could argue that, on a much smaller scale, elementals animated by elementalists are also corrupted by their summoners: elementals’ minds are way inferior to that of the spellcasters who animated them, giving to the latter control over them.

With the human gods we come in contact with an example of corruption. Let’s consider Grenth with the Seven Reapers and Abaddon with the margonites: unlike elder dragons, they don’t force their will over beings; they instead reward those who prove loyal and worthy by imbuing (blessing) them with their respective kinds of magic. This process could anyway provide the corrupted with a deeper connection to the respective god’s mind.

Another example of corruption would be Shiro with the Shiro’ken: abusing his powers as an Envoy, he summoned back to the mortal world spirits of departed mortals, provided said spirits with a mortal body and forced them to his service (bound spirits).

P.S. Honourable mention: the dwarves’ transformation following the Great Dwarf’s Ritual (yes, another example of corruption).

EDIT: I expanded on these ideas on this same thread (link to specific comment).

First off, a question comes to mind: what even is a Realm of the Mists? Far from clear but we can try to deduce something by the few informations we have.

These dimensions are generated by the Mists themselves, they appear to mimic reality and each could be tending towards a specific aspect of magic – their origin is lost in time. Powerful beings clash to rule over these Realms in an attempt to influence them, trying to impose their will to the dimension’s creations and to the souls gathering there. They can be connected to the physical world (or to each other) with portals which can be spontaneous or generated by someone.

So far we’ve interacted with three Realms (mostly in GW1):

1. The Underworld, or the Realm of the Dead, ruled by Grenth and guarded by his Seven Reapers. It’s under constant attacks by Dhuum, who’s determined to regain control over it.
2. The Fissure of Woe, or the Realm of War, ruled by Balthazar. Menzies is engaged in a battle with his half-brother, the God of War, in an attempt to usurp Balthazar, gain his powers and take control of the Fissure of Woe.
3. The Realm of Torment, or the Nightmare Realm. Comparable to Hell, it’s unclear who (or if anyone) originally ruled over it. At a point in time it was overthrown by Abaddon, who heavily influenced it; it was later redeemed by Kormir.

A shared feature of the Realms, or more in general a proper characteristic of the Mists themselves, is the formation of demonic creations in nightmarish forms, a quality exploited by Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies. However, not all creatures from the Mists are demonic.

Let’s hence analyze the Dream of Dreams, or the Dream Realm:

• Sylvari’s genesis is surprisingly similar to that of Razah. To quote from Razah’s wiki page: “[…] When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind. Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.”.
  In addition, once formed by the Mists sylvari are transported to Tyria, to the flesh world, via the Pale Tree.
• The Nightmare and the Dream act like entities ruling over the Dream Realm, they’re suggested to have been created by a collection of memories and minds; they oppose to each other in trying to influence their realm’s creations, sylvari being one but the White Stag is another example. In addition, it seems like Mordremoth, a physical external powerful being (and in such comparable to, for example, Grenth), attempted to take control over it (the Realm).
• The Pale Tree is its custodian (comparable to Grenth’s Reapers), a guardian affiliated with the Dream (here intended as the entity), and is able to open portals to the Dream Realm, granting access to external beings. Theoretically, the opposite could also happen: portals would be opened to transport creations of the Realm to the real world. The Shadow of the Dragon is itself a creation of the Dream Realm, used by the Dream to exhibit a Wyld Hunt; it was later subjugated by Mordremoth and subsequently transported (possibly with a portal) to the real world.

P.S. This would also provide an explanation for Malyck: he, like other sylvari, sprung from the Dream Realm and came to the real world via a Tree. Lacking the guidance of the Pale Tree, its connection to the Dream (the entity) is rendered harder.

P.P.S. Fitting names could be Mind Realm or Realm of Mentality.

@Konig: A premise: we are unfolding new topics, so I’m considering to open new threads; anyway for now I’ll continue here.

Standing to Caithe’s revelation, both the Wyld Hunt and Mordremoth’s call were “tearing at each other”; the Wyld Hunt is an active process similar to Mordremoth’s call, it’s how the Dream communicates its will to the sylvari (and doesn’t try to impose it) and it’s important to remember that it’s not present in all sylvari.

In “Called to Service” Caithe tells us:

Caithe: Simply put, it is a calling given by the Dream itself. It sings deep in your soul and cannot be ignored.

In addition, it seems like Wyld Hunts are no more visioned once the sylvari sprout from the Pale Tree, once the sylvari are out of the Dream and transported via the Tree into the “flesh world” (the same can be obviously said about the Dark Hunts, given by the Nightmare).

Also they’re sometimes unclear and subject to misinterpretation, as Kahedins says (in “The Newly Awakened”):

Kahedins: I try to find time to help each of the new sprouts interpret their Dreams, but it’s becoming difficult with so many awakening. I fear some will go astray and misinterpret their Wyld Hunts.

I disagree with your envisionment of Mordremoth’s call: it’s an active process made by the dragon, he directly communicates with the sylvari, whom may initially not know about the voice’s origin, and they certainly don’t identify it with their own thoughts (as they don’t mistaken the Wyld Hunt with their own thoughts).

Sylvari are pretty unique creatures, the Dream (and the Pale Tree) helps sustain sylvari’s minds against dragon’s corruption, their minds are aided by the Dream and the Mother Tree, a thing other races don’t naturally possess. As a result, other races will be (by nature) hopeless when confronted with an Elder Dragon’s mind, their inferior, isolated minds will always lose the struggle and will fall to the dragon’s will (going way out of topic here, but I’m willing to suggest that Ascended beings are immune to dragon corruption, or if anything way more diffcult to subjugate).

Consider King Reza: Zhaitan firstly needed to imbue his body with death magic, and possibly shadow magic too (by the way this seems like an unnecessary step for Mordremoth regarding the sylvari), transforming it, making it vulnerable to its influence (you know, the spheres of influence); once he corrupted the body it was able to subjugate Reza’s mind and ultimately control it, constraining it to persecute its will. Ultimately, only Caladbolg was able to free Reza’s mind.
To add on this, both Twitchy (the purified Undead Chicken) and Glint retained their corrupted body once their mind was “freed” from the dragon’s corruption.

Regarding the Tower of Nightmares: it was an attempt to create a Nightmare Tree (as opposed to the Pale Tree, or in general to a Dream Tree). The Toxic Hybrid sprung from the Nightmare itself, much like sylvari spring from the Dream (opening once again another topic here but more in general they are both generated by the mists), and was brought to Tyria (the “flesh world”) via this artificial Nightmare Tree.

Even though mind magic is heavily used and displayed (pink magical clouds, typical of mind magic, can be seen surrounding the Tower), we see no real presence of Mordremoth’s influence (apart from him being linked to Scarlet’s mind; that’s why we hear Mordremoth’s theme (which was retrofitted by the way), it connects to Scarlet’s theme, which is also present, and I think it refers to her internal struggle).

In addition, Toxic krait can be seen summoning hallucinations, nightmares in shadowy form, and even though, as you pointed out, their minds were altered (not clear how; personally I think they somehow got connected to the Nightmare), their intent (their will) was always pristine clear: to give birth to their prophet and to protect it (in the end we know they were used).
Ultimately the Toxic Alliance has no connection to Mordremoth; it’s connected to the Nightmare.

When Mordremoth tries to take credit for Scarlet’s ideas he’s tormenting Scarlet, he’s trying to weaken her mind so that he can control it; Scarlet’s very arrogant and full of herself, the dragon knows that well and tries to exploit that. Ultimately Scarlet says “I must confront it” not “I must embrace it”, she refuses to surrender to the dragon and was looking for a way to stop it, she was looking for a weakness – most likely that’s what the Toxic Pollen was intended for together with the ley line studies.

@Konig: I can see how this could be discussed in a whole different thread, but it’s really not out of topic (like some other mentions in this same thread are… Zhu Hanuku) since, by comparing the two calls, I was investigating how Scarlet’s mind was influenced to eventually respond to the thread’s supposition (“It’s All Scarlet’s Fault”).

This is what Caithe had to say in “A Shadow’s Deeds”:

Caithe: My Wyld Hunt, Mordremoth’s voice… they were tearing at each other and sometimes I didn’t know which was which.
Caithe: I was very confused, and I felt like the only person I could trust was me.
<Character name>: That’s the very time you should have leaned on your friends!
Caithe: Don’t you see? I didn’t know who my friends were! Enemies, friends, even Faolain—it was all gray.

She couldn’t distinguish one from another sometimes, that’s how similar they are. Unlike Scarlet, Caithe didn’t choose to separate herself from the Dream (which, to quote the wiki, is done by the Soundless “in an attempt to escape the constant pressure and burden of it [the Dream]”) and in so had somewhat of an advantage in resisting the dragon’s corruption (what I’ll say now is out of topic: I think dragon’s corruption, or corruption in general, happens when a strong mind oppresses and ultimately negates someone else’s mind, instilling its own will into it; obviously magic plays a role in it).

Both the Hunts and Mordremoth’s call are like suggestions, propositions which in the end a sylvari can agree or disagree with, but the latter is way more insistent, invadent, it aims to slowly turn one insane and will eventually prevail by bringing one to exhaustion.

Regardless, Scarlet handled it better than most (considering her link with the Dream was very weak), as the dragon never fully corrupted her (you keep saying she fell to Mordremoth by the end of the journal, but said journal ends with her still refuting the dragon; again, we don’t know when and if she fully lost the struggle); in addition, the creation of the Molten and Toxic alliances and the engagement with the Aetherblades, which I believe can all be attributable to Scarlet’s own decisions, might have been an attempt to create an army to confront Mordremoth “and put an end to this madness”.

It’s hard to explain, but what I’m trying to say is that Scarlet herself has her own faults, which are indipendent to the ones related to Mordremoth’s influence.

@Konig: Regarding the name change (from Ceara to Scarlet Briar) I was thinking about the fact that she seems to re-emerge from Omadd’s machine with new knowledge and thinking of herself as a new person, superior in a way to the close-minded Ceara, and was not necessarily directly affected by Mordremoth in such (following the vision, she might have identified with the blood-red thorns surrounding the Pale Tree by herself).
I wasn’t referring to the journal when I expressed that, I should have been clearer.

The point is: while she communicated with Mordremoth, she did so in a different way than Aerin did, who [Aerin] unwillingly or not accepted the dragon’s “guidance”. Being continously tormented by the dragon’s voice made Scarlet slowly lose her sanity, but we know that, as viewed from the last journal’s entry, she was determined to put an end to it (hence why I said that her studies were initially aimed to annihilate the voice in her head). It’s unclear when Mordremoth completely subdued her (if ever), it’s unclear how long she resisted.

On a related note, it’s arguable that the Wyld Hunts (and also the Dark Hunts) act similarly to Mordremoth’s call: both are strange calls (though Mordremoth’s call is now explainable) coming to the sylvari, which the sylvari urge to fulfill (willingly or not) but which they can ultimately refuse if willing to or strong enough; both calls aim to a greater goal indipendent to the sylvari. The main difference seems to be that whatever/whoever generates the Wyld Hunts (or the Dark Hunts) does not try to impose its will on the sylvari.

To add on what I wrote earlier, it’s also Omadd’s fault, whose machine somehow exposed Ceara (Scarlet).

@Konig: If you meant it’s the journal that “[…] ends with her falling to Mordremoth” I doubt that’s the case and we don’t know when she definitely turned. It’s also unclear if she referring to herself as Scarlet Briar is linked to her turning or to the fact that she learned of a greater truth from the Eternal Alchemy and therefore thinks of herself as a new person, with a superior knowledge. In addition I don’t think (can’t recall if) we ever see Scarlet talk to her master like Aerin did.

@Konig: A better example of a hostile legendary rank NPC not being enlarged is Kudu (and his power suit), who’s a rather important villain.

The term Chosen itself can be linked to the Flameseeker Prophecies (as in “destined to fulfill said prophecy”) or to the way the White Mantle uses it in relation to the Eye (as in “chosen by the Eye”), and, while it’s not sure if the two conincide, it seems to generally refer to people who are naturally favoured to Ascend (from the wiki: “the Gift of True Sight is a power that can be unlocked by Ascension, and is said to be dormant within the Chosen.”). While anyone (seemingly) has the potentiality to Ascend, those who we refer to as Chosen seem to possess a natural predisposition in doing so (which could result in a higher concentration of magic or in general to a more energetic soul). Why would the Eye even choose one over the other anyway? Unless the whole process is a farce and one’s soul really is equivalent to that of another one.

I don’t think it is a case of gameplay issues (like Sabetha or Matthias, where their models need to be bigger in order to be better identifiable); we see legendary rank NPCs of normal size anyway (Taidha Covington being one, but mostly friendly NPCs, like Logan and Trahearne).
More likely I think it’s the same thing that happened with the Jotun: the Jotun were way bigger in size in GW1 and when transported to GW2 they went through a reimaginative process, which produced a reduction in their size. The same could have happened with the mursaat: proof for this are the various mursaat armours (busts) found throughout the Stronghold of the Faithful, which appear bigger in size than those in GW1. There might be a counterproof to this though: the hollowed space in the Stasis Chamber seems to be of normal size, if not even smaller than GW1 mursaat.
In addition, following his rebirth, not only did Lazarus’s armour change (which is pretty evident when compared to the various mursaat busts I mentioned above) but his physical size could have also changed.

Personally, a major slice of the fault has to be attributed to the Pact, Edge of Destiny and the PC for not knowing what the destruction of an Elder Dragon (specifically Zhaitan) would have resulted into for Tyria.
Regarding Scarlet, one thing is worth remembering: even though at the end it looks like Mordremoth succeded in subjugating her, we know from Scarlet’s Journal that she was determined to “[…] know more […] and put an end to this madness”. So, initially, the whole study of the ley lines might have been intended as a way of destroying the dark entity who kept calling, taunting and possessing her (since we don’t know if the Elder Dragons ever use to feast directly from the ley lines and if it’s a good idea).

Daniel Handler.4816:

So basically the part we see of ethereal magic is the form it has taken.
Meaning ether isn’t magenta, chaos magic is magenta.

That could be one way of putting it, but more precisely we just witness its interactions.
And yes, most likely aether isn’t linked to a colour in the magical spectrum – quite possibly chaos magic appears as magenta/fuchsia; mind magic is also quite oriented in that direction, appearing as pink/fuchsia.

On the Blue Orb:

• Regarding the “corrupted tendrils”, I’ve always thought of them as one of the products of the combined magics and technologies of the different races of the Pact, since they can also be found in camps far from Fort Trinity, hence far from the orb (Caer Shadowfain being an example).
• While we don’t see corrupted largos, we know that a risen largos model was made, just to be subsequently (for whatever reason) used for something else (risen priestess of Dwayna). So, while this doesn’t technically confirm that largos are corruptible by other elder dragons, implying the assumption that they are already corrupted by the DSD is true, at least we know the idea was investigated.
• While it could be linked to the DSD I doubt it’s a form of corruption from said dragon, as it displays protective effects against dragon corruption (at least we know it works against Zhaitan’s).
• Abaddon himself is dead.

Personally I think it’s a long lost artifact from a long forgotten race (and with forgotten I don’t mean the Forgotten).

On the CoE discussion:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We have very little details on how dragons corrupt, and no details on how the Inquest corrupted, so it’s a pretty vague spot right now without much evidence that can be laid out into the form of an argument.

Ultimately what Aaron said is true. Anyway, we know that the magic used by every single entity is the same and comes from the same source: the various natural aspects of magic, which are mostly visible flowing through the ley lines. I believe the corruption regards the minds: the more magic one holds, the easier it is to influence (corrupt) others’ minds. Consider Grenth with the Seven Reapers and Abaddon with the margonites: unlike elder dragons, they don’t force their will over beings; they instead reward those who prove loyal and worthy by imbuing (blessing) them with their respective kinds of magic. Elder dragons not only imbue their victims with their kinds of magic, mostly against their will, but force their own will into them, restraining their minds.
In this sense, I could argue that elementals summoned by elementalists are also corrupted by their summoners – elementals’ minds are way inferior to that of the spellcasters who animated them, giving to the latter control over them; on a much grander scale this is what Primordus does: destroyers can be considered elementals, since they are created by shaping elements related to the Fire Dragon’s magic.

@trub I made this topic a while ago (here it is) about the Eye and the latest lore insights. Long story short (even though it’s fast to read) the seal found in the mursaat’s fortress (Ember Bay) and the new helm of Lazarus recall the Eye of Janthir (and to an extent even the Anomalies’ eyes).

So, we still don’t know where it is, but why would Lazarus need it now? He is supposed to be incredibly powerful, and most likely he’s got the gift True Sight himself.

Also, regarding the Eye itself, is it a mere artifact or was an entity somehow trapped in it? Or better, was someone watching through the Eye from a distance, given that the mursaat wouldn’t show themselves easily at the time?

Physicists indirectly study dark matter by observing its interactions with its surroundings, developing hypotheses on what it could be; they still can’t directly observe and tell what it really is. We know what it does (and doesn’t) interact with and how.

Tyrians study aether in much the same way but the similarity ends here, since the types of interactions displayed are very different. Aether is one aspect of magic and as such sentient beings learned how to tap it; whether you approach it scholarly or with magitech, you are just observing its interactions and are still fundamentally unsure on what it really is. Let’s consider asura gates: we know they are powered by magic, we (players) don’t really know how they function, but if aether were crucial to their existence dynamicists would simply exploit its interactions via magitech while still not knowing what it is, because they can’t directly observe it. So, again, they can study it indirectly but they ultimately don’t know what it is. All of this applies to aether related spells too.
On a side note, let’s also consider that chaos magic (yet another mysterious magical aspect) displays teleporting capabilities and we know mesmers make use of it too.

Passing onto the Dream of Dreams and demons; this is from the Nightfall Manuscripts (Razah’s wiki page):

The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.

Razah’s genesis and attitude are disturbingly similar to that of the sylvari. Razah sprung from the Realm of Torment much like the sylvari sprung from the Dream, they just differ in appearance: one looks like it’s made of flesh, the others are made from vegetation; this is one of the reasons why I think the Dream is a realm of the Mists. Point is, I don’t know the source of this quote: “the Dream itself is said to be made of aether and memories”, and if it is reliable knowledge afterall; let’s assume it is: the Pale Tree could simply connect to it without needing to know what the Dream is made of, much like mesmers (as I explained earlier) use aether without knowing what it really is.
While we don’t have the certainty the Dream is a realm of the Mists (even though I personally think it is) we know for certain that demons spawn from the Mists, specifically those from the Realm of Torment, but we ultimately don’t know what the protomatter that makes up the Mists and its creations is. While we know magic can and does flow through the Mists, I doubt it is its only component.

Aether is everywhere, “it’s a metaphysical substance that occupies the space between planets as well as the space between protons and neutrons (if said space had a magical presence to it)”, but unlike other aspects of magic it’s not itself detectable (locatable) like, for example, ley lines are.

The main fact is that in Tyria’s universe sentient beings can sense and use magic, since, as suggested by Snaff’s research, mind and magic are linked; this is the reason why Gwen and mesmers in general can manipulate aether, it being one aspect of magic amongst others, but they don’t entirely understand it. In addition, mesmers make also use of chaos magic and possibly mind magic.

As for the Dream of Dreams, it’s stated in the wiki that its true nature is unknown even to the Pale Tree; even though it is deeply tied to it, considering that it acts as its custodian, the Pale Tree doesn’t know how it really works. Personally, the Dream appears to be one of the many realms of the mists, and as such accessible by outsiders via portals. Sylvari themselves spawn from it and are transported physically in Tyria just later via the Pale Tree; Sylvari seems to be a creation of the mists much like Razah or the demons you mentioned are. Aether might have a role in generating such beings (by the way this knowledge comes to us from the game’s manual and as such might be one that’s not shared with tyrians, unless specifically said), but I don’t see how one could directly study or measure it this way.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There are ways to reproduce it.

That’s not what “reproducibly [locate, measure, or study]” meant. Also, one doesn’t reproduce aether; you use it.

Ultimately, I don’t really see any discrepancy, at least not in the ones you mentioned so far.

P.S. Where is it stated that Dynamics’s exponents study or make use of aether?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Then aether is diffferent from ether. […]

I forgot to quote the interviewer’s question, here it is:

What is ‘ether’ and how does it relate to the kind of magic our characters use, the ley lines and dragon energy?

Seems like aether and ether are really the same, just a difference in spelling, like color and colour.

Daniel Handler.4816:

[…] by this quote aether just basically means outer space to them.

But it’s really not outer space, that’s not what they said; they compared it to dark matter: it’s not directly observable but its interactions with the typical matter are.

Here is a collection of various lore interviews (the original source doesn’t seem to be accessible anymore); I’ll extract the part about the aether here:

In Tyria, “aether” refers to the metaphysical substance that occupies the spaces between matter and energy; analogous to the vacuum of space between planets as well as the space between protons and neutrons (if said vacuum of space had a magical presence to it). It is not a definable and measurable thing like ley lines, which represent the actual flow of magical energy through and across Tyria.

As such, aether is one aspect of the magic mortals or Elder Dragons use. It is part of the magical/physical structure of the universe, but unavailable for direct study—sort of like dark matter: there is something there, a presence that includes a magical aspect, which we can observe and verify from the effects it produces, but so far no one can reproducibly locate, measure, or study it. They’ve only learned how to tap it. If tapping a source of power you don’t entirely understand sounds dangerous to you, that’s because it is.

According to the given definition, I guess one could attune to aether like if it was, let’s say, fire magic. By the process of attuning magic users focus on a particular aspect of magic, making use of it effectively (elementalists are the best example). On a side note, attuning to multiple aspects of magic at the same time might be very dangerous and difficult, if not impossible, to most.

From the wiki: “At the end of the Sanctum Cay mission, the players learn they are Chosen, and therefore fit to Ascend and earn the gift of True Sight, becoming able to see the Mursaat.”

Not only the Chosen possess high quantities of magic, more importantly they have the potential to become Ascended. Quite a threat for the Mursaat, as prophesied by Glint.
What a better way then than to kill them on the bloodstone? You get to use some powerful souls while at the same time getting rid of a potential threat, two birds with one stone.

Let’s take a step back.
One way to get white light is by primary colours: they are mixed or added together with the proper intensity. The most common set of primary colours is Red, Green and Blue (RGB), exactly the three colours we see running through the ley lines (those we ride with our gliders too).

Ranael.6423

While magic can be split in different domains as seen in episode 2, one could also argue that different combination could be achieved.

Interesting idea. The mixing together (or addition) of two or three of the three primary colors of light (RGB) with varying degrees of intensity can produce a wide range of other colors, not just white. What if there are primary magics from which all other kinds of magic are generated? And how to obtain them: do they naturally occur or does the mind of an individual play an important role in shaping the magic (consider Kormir turning into the Goddess of Truth whereas Abaddon was the God of Secrets)?

Mickey Frogeater.1470

With that in mind I’m wondering what Magic corruption created the Afflicted and the Jade Wind. Affliction corruption looks quite different from Zhaitan’s Death and Shadow Magic combination…

It’s worth noting that Shiro got indirectly influenced by Abaddon, who drove him to insanity, making Shiro turn to forbidden magic: was he blessed with Abaddon’s magic? And what role did Dwayna’s magic (which he absorbed from the emperor) play?
The Affliction is subsequent to his mortal death, when Shiro was already an Envoy. Envoys can control souls and influence the dead; the Afflicted aren’t dead nor risen: they are living creatures who came too close to Shiro’s malevolent spirit. Is like if the bodies and the spirits of the Afflicted have been poisoned, slowly being tortured and tormented in a way.

draxynnic.3719

[…] divine fire repelling Mordrem at the end of Season 2.

Divine Fire is associated with Ascension and the human gods. Are Ascended beings uncorruptible? Did the Forgotten make Glint Ascend in order to cleanse her? Is the Pale Tree also Ascended (both her and Glint show prophetic abilities)? Are the Exalted Ascended? Certainly the Elder Dragons aren’t.

@Rognik Funnily enough, even though it states that the Molten Dominator is immune to burning, it actually takes damage from it… and I remember being able to blind a couple of dredges. It’s a weird buggy topic.

It seems to be ley-line energies flowing into the volcano, likely directly feeding Primordus (like when Mordremoth fed on ley-energy in that old cutscene). While they seem to come from the direction of the bloodstones, I doubt the magic is directly flowing from them; unless the White Mantle has started mining those stones too… or they spontaneously cracked.

Squee.7829

I’m not sure what we’re seeing in GW2 is the Onyx Gate […]

It’s definitely not the Onyx Gate, as stated in one of Cami’s journals.

Previously to being used by the White Mantle in their annual event, the Test of the Chosen, the Eye was located in Janthir, a desolate-looking island north of Kryta; the inhabitants of this island were said to possess the gift of True Sight, a power the Eye itself seems to retain. It’s not clear who these islanders were.

It was the founder of the White Mantle himself, Saul D’Alessio, to retrieve the Eye and to bring it to Kryta, claiming it for his order. Following mursaat’s instructions, he learned about the Eye’s location and its potentiality, and would have subsequently made use of it to identify the Chosen, individuals with magical aptitude.

With this knowledge, something comes to mind: why didn’t the mursaat themselves carry the Eye to Kryta? Hard to tell.

We know that before being able to carry the Eye, one must cleanse himself of his sins, an act rendered possible (in GW1 times) by washing with the waters of the Fountain of Truth (we witness something similar in GW2 times in the Forsaken Thicket: in order to cleanse Matthias’s corruption, players must wash themselves with the Thicket Waters gushing from four fountains in the Temple of Salvation – the same waters can also be found in the Tunnel of Respite ). Were humans (or non-mursaat in general) somehow indispensable for this task?

The connection between Janthir’s Eye and the mursaat is obscure, but light has started to timidly shine recently, revealing something. In Ember Bay, by further investigating the mursaat’s fortress, we find a sealed entrance; the seal itself kind of resembles the Eye: a tetrahedron with an eye in the middle. Interestingly, it resembles something else too: the configuration on reborn Lazarus ‘s helm, clearly visible on the forehead region. While the mursaat’s armor could be intended as a redesign from GW1, it clearly isn’t, since we can witness multiple old mursaat armors in the Stronghold of the Faithful (whether or not those armor were scavanged by the White Mantle or forged by them, the point stands). In addition to this, the various anomalies observed throughout Tyria (even the transformation of the Mystic Forge) display three eyes exactly as if they were replicating that new armor, with the exception of a missing central eye. While I’m hesitant, if not sceptic, to say these anomalies are phased mursaat, there’s definitely a connection between them.

What are your ideas on all of this?

P.S. In case you missed it, here you can witness the seal: link.

Elder Dragons feed off of magical energy, if they don’t consume it they might die. Similarly to Chak, they might also filter out the type of magic that’s damaging to them: their weakness. Let’s consider Zhaitan: did he consume and used just death magic, while filtering out all the other types, or did he consume some types of magic, filtering out his weakness (let’s pretend, for example, it was plant or life), while storing death magic for its uses?

Narcemus.1348

[…] Primordus didn’t consume death magic before Zhaitan awoke, because even though he wasn’t awake, he still held dominion over it and the other dragons could not touch it.

More than a dominion, or an exclusive use over different types of magic (necromancers wouldn’t be able to use death magic otherwise), it’s like if the different personalities of the Elder Dragons drove them towards a specific type of magic, and, over the eons, this differentiation led to a point where each dragon turned into a physical manifestation of their respective type, while naturally drawing in their chosen magical type.

DarcShriek.5829

I wonder if there is any harm in absorbing magic that is not part of a dragon’s sphere of influence.

That’s an interesting idea: are they willingly using these other types of magic or is it against their willpower? And is it somehow weakening them? Consider Primordus and its destroyers: we’ve seen destroyers that are immune to burning (those in core Tyria), but in Ember Bay there’s just one example I can think about (the Dominator); in Ember Bay we’re now also observing destroyers susceptible to chill, vulnerable to cold conditions (could be just mechanics though).

maxwelgm.4315

[…] if this is how magic works for Elder Dragons, there’s no reason to believe it doesn’t work like that concerning the gods either.

And much like the Elder Dragons they are able of corruption. Unlike the ED though, the human gods don’t force their corruption over unwilling beings, they instead spread it to those who showed and proved them particular devotion, as a reward; for example: Grenth’s Seven Reapers or even Abaddon’s margonites.

@Aaron I doubt the seeping was intended: we know the Seers had artifacts capable of retrieving magic from the Bloodstone on demand; also, the seeping, even if extremely slow, goes against the Bloodstone’s intention. If not Abaddon (since, being the god of secrets, he could have known how to handle the Bloodstone), the other human gods might have weakened it by fragmenting it.

Like the proverb says, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Lazarus is taking advantage of the situation; Primordus happens to be situated in a pretty important location: the site of an other Bloodstone. While the Fire Dragon wasn’t driven to the Ring of Fire because of the Bloodstone itself (since, once inside the stone, the magic is hidden), the immense flow of magic around the Bloodstone is definitely what attracted it.

By getting rid of Primordus, Lazarus could get his hands on another Bloodstone.

I certainly believe Lazarus isn’t done with his search for power. Evil or good? He doesn’t care, the end justifies the means.

A couple of months ago, on a forum post , I used an analogy to describe how the human gods fragmented the original Bloodstone: four bloodstones were obtained much like when white light passes through a prism and gets dispersed into its component colors; and much like a second prism can make the light white again, the fifth piece, the Keystone, would make the Bloodstone whole once more.

• White light = Magic in the original Bloodstone
• First prism = Gods’ intervention
• Component colors = Schools of magic, four bloodstones
• Second prism = Keystone (together with royal blood?)

Turns out that magic kind of works like this, as proposed by the PC to Taimi in Taimi’s Game:

<Character name> So magic is almost like light. Broken up into a spectrum.
Taimi: That’s a perfect way to think about it!
Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

Weirdly, Taimi talks about dragon magics when referring to magic as we know it, supposedly the same magic possessed and used by characters on a daily basis. If this is the case, then the term dragon magic could be a misnomer: Elder Dragons possess a great mastery over the type of magic they have presidence on (spheres of influence), and those same types of magic might have profoundly modified their appearence and behaviour, but the different types of magic should exist regardless of the Elder Dragons.

We know that when they’re sleeping magic seeps from each one of them, a different colour for each dragon (to recall the analogy): when all of them are alive, the total seeping magic will result to be white.

The balance of magic in the world was first broken when Zhaitan died, and all the immense quantity of death (also shadow?) magic he possessed now flooded Tyria (notice how the so called dragon magic didn’t stop to exist after Zhaitan’s death). We now know that some of that magic was absorbed by Mordremoth, hence why he was able to bring his fallen creations back to life (do you think that shadow magic played a part in its nightmarish creations?). Following Mordremoth’s death, his presidence over plant (and mind?) magic was no longer such, and Primordus (and possibly other dragons too) was able to harness his type of magic too.

I guess all of this could make sense somehow, what do you think?

Konig Des Todes.2086

The Keystone was part of the original Bloodstone. It’s literally taking one thing and dividing it into five pieces.
Why would it change color. Why would there be an unneeded “piece” if there was only one piece?
[…] sounds like you’re saying the keystone wasn’t part of the original bloodstone but created because of excessive magic in the world.

The Keystone was physically obtained from the Bloodstone, I’m not implying otherwise, but its sole purpose seems to be that of making the bloodstones into one whole again, reuniting the schools of magic back together, making them undistinguishable… when, back with the seers, magic was already undistinct. Also, the gods had deranged the purpose of the Seerstone when they started putting magic back into the world, creating in this way the Bloodstone.

Regarding the Keystone’s appearance, given that the stone’s purpose has changed from the original, I don’t see why its aspect couldn’t have changed as well.

Konig Des Todes.2086

However, there is a fatal flaw in the claim that magic would have crystallized in the world when the gods released magic. And that is:
The effects we’re seeing now is when there is too much magic in the world because two of the Elder Dragons, which contained and limited a large amount of magic, are dead.
[…] Given their appearance, and the animations/model showed in the making up video released yesterday, I’d say that those crystals are an actual part of the Keep Construct, not erupting let alone growing from it – much like the jade constructs of GW1.

I didn’t state it would had crystallized all around the world, but around the bloodstones (the four containing magic). The seers contained all the uncorrupted magic of the world into the Seerstone, supposedly not a small quantity. When, because of the gods, magic started slowly but continuosly seeping from the bloodstones (it wasn’t released in a burst, we still have the bloodstones after +1000 years), it could have started to crystallize around the seeping points on its way out, like stalactites.
So the growth wouldn’t be observable in small periods of time, unless the crystalization was the result of a burst – take what happened with Matthias Gabrel for example, when he turned into an Abomination: he could hold no more the incredible amount of magic flowing through him and the crystal-like formations (sprouting exactly when the hovering crystal shatters) definetly look like they’ve bursted from inside of him.
Regarding the Keep Construct, its base material seems to be marble – I see red glows inside the broken marble but the crystal bits (except the one hovering over its “shoulder”) seem to be protruding from it – they were part of the wreckage when the Construct had been assembled (we see that the White Mantle hoarded quite a lot of the red crystalline fragments in Salvation Pass).

Konig Des Todes.2086
It’s hardly suspicious because they can toss any name and it literally means nothing to us. It wouldn’t matter if her father is named King John or King Asinine.

I didn’t mean the names per se, but the knowledge that she is undoubtfully related to that line – perhaps by developing some more on her lineage.

Konig Des Todes.2086

And arguing that the “pieces must be brought back” is highly theoretical on both fronts – both in-game and out of game – and idiotball holding on a whole new level than ever done in the history of Guild Wars.
“Oh hey, there’s a chance that my blood can unleash powerful magic that once drove all the known races to the brink of genocide, but hey, the five pieces likely have to be brought together so it’s okay that I spend my day to day life on this one piece.”

Thing is, they would not take a chance: those directly involved would know how things work – how it would work is only in doubt to us.
Also, needing to bring the fragments close together really isn’t that absurd, on the contrary it’s pretty logical, and it would also be a very difficult deed to achieve.

P.S. I’m not stating it must be this way. It could be this way, this is all speculation.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given your continued stance that the keystone is white and saying so because prisms…

Seems more than just an analogy. I mean… why else would you say it’s white because of a prism.

Other than plainly stating it, I don’t know how else to put it in order to make it understandable that it is an analogy… don’t mix objects from both groups.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Also, the gods altered all stones… so if they carved one to ensure it has a purpose… wouldn’t they do the same to the others?

That’s one of the point from where I started: the Keystone is different. The others are like miniature versions of the original Seerstone (containers of magic).
As I said earlier, the Keystone was not a needed piece for the seers.
To add on this, we don’t know what the original Seerstone looked like, if it was stone-like or crystalline.
When the gods started releasing the magic from the Seerstone back into the world, given the massive amounts of magic seeping from it, some could have started to crystallize (as we are seeing from recent events in game, magic can crystallize.) – in the cinematic linked by cptaylor.2670, we can see that the crystalline fragments are erupting from the stone (they could be increasing in size much like stalactites).

Konig Des Todes.2086

That’s because that’s a fan-made family tree and we don’t know who Jennah’s father was, hell, that list would make it kitten clear we know less than 10% of the royal family lineage.

Ain’t it weird, not to say suspicious, that the names of Jennah’s parents, given that they are pretty recent history, have never been spoken out or written (both in game and out)?

Anyway, if she was related to King Doric, I guess that the pieces must be brought back together in order for the supposed sacrifice to work.

P.S. I call it Seerstone for argument’s sake.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Prism indicates multiple colors. But there is only one color: Red.
There is no prism that you speak of. None at all. There is red, red, red, and more red.

I’m not implying that the aggression fragment is blue, that the preservation one is yellow (and so on), or that the gods used a prism…
That was an analogy.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Furthermore, the Bloodstone is crystal.

The inscription on the two bloodstones is carved into a material that clearly looks stone-like. Also, the carvings on the Keystone are different because it was made by someone else, the gods.

Konig Des Todes.2086

There really is no indication that Jennah isn’t a rightful heir.

It’s just implied and accepted that she is from the Salmaic dynasty. I don’t see a clear line here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_royalty_family_tree

trub.1657

Honestly, this ‘decoration’ looks like a stolen thorn pedestal floor used by the original druids in GW1.

Uhm.. those are vaguely similar, yeah – especially in the glare coming out of them.

Ok, got what you mean: because it’s a royal duty.

And how did it even got there?
Well, obviously like how Rytlock got Sohothin… no idea.

I’m not sure if the seers referred to it as Bloodstone, but, either way, I’m referring to it as Seerstone to differentiate it from the modern bloodstones, which were obtained (and named this way) by King Doric’s plea to the gods.

“…like when white light passes through a prism and gets separated into its component colors”, with a second prism that makes the light white again.
That was just an analogy (a poor one maybe):

• White light = original magic, Seerstone
• First prism = gods’ intervention
• Component colors = schools of magic, four fragments
• Second prism = Keystone (together with royal blood)

I don’t really see how the Keystone is equal in purpose to the others, since the stored magic has been split (divided into four schools) between four of the fragments.

By keeping the Keystone in the throne room (the throne per se seems to be a red sofa by the way), at the very center of Divinity’s Reach, it will be nicely guarded and hard to reach (unless someone infiltrates the ministry… you know who I mean) – it would be hidden in plain sight.
Also, we are not completely certain that Queen Jennah is the rightful heir to the throne.

Four of the fragments were obtained from the Seerstone much like when white light passes through a prism and gets separated into its component colors.
But the Keystone seems to possess a different purpose from those four pieces, a different usage, and it would be a part that wasn’t intended to exist or designed by the seers originally (to continue the earlier analogy, it would be a second prism that brings the colors back together).
So what I’m suggesting is that it is different from the other bloodstones, both in its purpose and possibly even in the looks (we still haven’t observed all of the fragments after all).

Regarding it resembling some kind of altar, if it were the Keystone, I could totally see that for it to work the royal heir must be sacrificed onto it.

Yeah, I agree, they didn’t store any of their magic in the still functioning “Seerstone”, they used Tyria’s own magic to pump it.
But then they literally broke it, and in creating the Keystone, a magical stone, they might have used their own magic.

To be clear, “original and unified” intended as the magic contained in the former “Seerstone”, which is magic relative to Tyria (the planet) – it was the human gods that broke it, we don’t know about the origin of their kind of magic.

Whoops! I had totally misread the number of “bloodstone” pieces, my mistake…
So yeah, five pieces, and the Keystone is one of them.

@Konig Des Todes: The point was a different one however. Since each of the four bloodstones holds one of the four different aspects of the original, unified magic, it follows that the Keystone must be imbued with a different kind of magic (hence it’s not a “…container of magic like the bloodstones are”), which could have very well altered its appearence.

It’s not clear if the Keystone was created from the original seers’ stone like the five bloodstones – if it were, anyway, it could be very different from the others nonetheless, even in the looks, since it would not be a container of magic like the bloodstones are.

After King Doric’s imploration to the gods, the original “bloodstone” was divided into six pieces, one of which was a Keystone. Since then the royal dynasty has been in charge of preventing these stones from ever being reassembled into one whole piece.
For all we know, it could be the Keystone, or it could perhaps be the exact spot where King Doric himself stood on when he pleaded to the gods, and was put in the throne room as a symbolic reminder of the royal duty.