Guild Wars 2

Mickey Frogeater.1470

If you are right than Balthazar is behind the Unseen One plot

More than being uniquely orchestrated by Balthazar, my view would be that the “mursaat plot” was driven, or thought out, by the entire pantheon–this would pose Lyssa’s mirror as a key part of said plan, given that it particularly reflected the image of a mursaat. In addition to this, we don’t know how the mursaat acknowledged their prophesied demise anyway (as far as I can remember)–in other words, I’m implying the human gods could have been the responsible for spreading dread and fear amongst the mursaat, to ultimately preserve Balthazar and themselves.
In this view then, Balthazar’s presence on Tyria (either forced by his loss of power or not) would have been crucial to negate, or at least slow down, Abaddon’s return.


Another view (potentially attachable, in some ways, to the previous one) could be that, priorly to the Exodus, Balthazar shared Abaddon’s convictions and agreed with him in secret, given that “releasing magic into Tyria” caused endless wars and conflicts for control over said magic. Following how the other gods responded to Abaddon’s beliefs and increasing cult, Balthazar would have betrayed Abaddon and would make sure to keep such a secret at bay.
When Abaddon’s power and secrets were finally absorbed by Kormir, it could follow that, sooner or later, the Goddess of Truth would have revealed Balthazar’s true nature to the other gods, whom could have decided to confront the God of War, a confrontation which could have resulted in the “dimming of Balthazar’s light”. In this view, the Shrine of the Traitors, and what comes with it, might then have been the result of Abaddon’s resentment towards Balthazar’s betrayal.

However, I have one very simple issue with the gods voluntarily causing Balthazar’s fall: since the human gods already went through the act of abating one of their own group at least once (with Abaddon), I doubt they would let Balthazar free to move around on his own if this was the case (let alone try to kill him or leaving him for dead). Unless, of course, either he was given a chance to redeem himself or he fled just in time.


One thing is for sure though: basing on a more recent teaser, we will definitely interact with several Abaddon statues in the new map (by the look of it, it might even be a temple to Abaddon... heck, I can count at least ten statues)–a very unexpected prospective, given that every trace of Abaddon was supposedly erased by the remaining human gods. I’m sure (even though “I hope” might be more reasonable) the presence of said statues will be justified and explained.
The idea of an “Abaddon fractal”, simply based on the statues shown in the trailer, seems now less probable then.

Aaron Ansari.1604

[…] the Pact in Orr has had access to a site that can mentally free dragon minions for about five years now. Perhaps they’ve been making use of it?

That’s an interesting approach; I doubt Twitchy the risen chicken would have been the sole specimen to undergo the ritual. It could definitely work if done correctly.

Aaron Ansari.1604

On the topic of old legends, I’d like to throw another one in for consideration.

Interesting connection… did Alain, in his last mission, come in contact with something or someone that sparked visions in his mind, which he then inevitably distorted?
Also, if I recall correctly, wasn’t a similar “hobo model” spotted during various (can’t remember which) “Season 2” story steps hiding and suspiciously looking over us?

Aaron Ansari.1604

“The human gods have left Tyria, but one stayed behind.” That implies that Balthazar never joined the Exodus, and if true, it completely upends all the theories we’ve had about what happened to him.

By how it is phrased, it’s definitely suggested that Balthazar was not “left behind”; perhaps he was forced to stay, or in other words he found himself unable to leave Tyria.
However, one crazy theory that came up following your find of (what appears to be) Balthazar’s dagger in the Bastion of the Penitent might be a bit more credible now: Lazarus was Balthazar’s alter ego since the beginning.
If the Abaddon statues shown in the trailer are an indication of the new fractal (and it is highly probable to be the case), we might get an answer to what happened to Balthazar when Abaddon was defeated and imprisoned. Perhaps it was then that the “God of War” was weakened and he’s being trying to get his power back ever since (since the Exodus), but an unexpected (and quite recent) event deprived him of the magic he had slowly been gathering for centuries, hence why, given the opportunity, he’s now all: “kitten Tyria and kitten the humans”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

• That’s not Braham – nothing like Braham – it’s the male norn PC voice.
• […] It’s also the same singular [ghostly] voice.
• You’re attributing one voice actor to two very clearly separate ones.

• My mistake. It definitely isn’t Braham to speak the first line but the norn PC, it makes more sense anyway given how he speaks about the Dragons.
  Who are we speaking to here then? Perhaps to Anise, letting Kryta know of the impending danger, catalyzing Kryta’s intervention in the process; perhaps it’s the Priestess of Balthazar we’re speaking to, as “your divine lord” is very specific to Balthazar.
• To me, it honestly sounds like those are two different voices (and both would have a ghostly tinge, as I also mentioned earlier); what made me associate those to the mercenaries was this particular line: “We must feed them to the lava, to his fires!”, as in feed the overcharged risen’s magic to Balthazar.
  In alternative it could be “our side” speaking here, implying that “feed them to the lava” is just a way of saying: “we need to destroy them”, but that would kind of be counterproductive to us as magic would dangerously flow unconstrained once more or even intercepted by Balthazar anyway, which would be equally dangerous.
• Can’t really tell if that’s the case, they sound very similar to me. Regardless, I think the similarity to Livia’s original voice is definitely there, and with all the “GW1 characters” we’ve recently come in contact with I think Livia’s presence is not impossible–quite the contrary in fact.

Konig Des Todes.2086

• Sparks around that Abomination […]
• […] that Risen Knight has water dripping from it… DSD energy? Are we seeing risen with one of any dragon’s energy now?

• I think that effect is not different from that shown with the imbued destroyer aberrations (which, by the way, is also very similar to Bolt’s effects); it’s some sort of a generic “overcharged with magic” effect I guess.
• I’m pretty sure that “water dripping effect” is caused by the orrian weapons wielded by the risen knight.
  As far as we know, Kralkatorrik and Steve are still alive and active (unlike Primordus and Jormag, which are now back to a dormant state), there’s no reason for their magic to be heavily displayed in risen and the examples you posed are clearly not indications of such anyway.

Let’s once again move with the lines, hoping that I understood every word correctly.

Braham: “Your divine lord is threatening all of Tyria. If another Dragon dies, we all die.”

It looks like Braham (if it is Braham speaking) had a chat with Taimi and is momentarily at peace with Jormag and as a consequence he’s totally on our side again–or if anything he’s against Balthazar. He’s possibly speaking with either Marjory or Kasmeer here.
EDIT: it’s not Braham speaking, but the norn PC.

Generic krytan female voice(?): “At a time when Elder Dragons endanger the whole world, Kryta must make uncommon allies.”

I don’t know if we’ve already met with the ghostly figure–the human female–shown at 0:31, or who it even is to speak, but the risen being the “uncommon allies” are definitely a possibility. The risen wraith shown in the trailer could be the one commanding the remaining risen (as Amaimon also suggested), or some of them at least, and it could be the one whom we’ll have to arrange the supposed alliance with. Interestingly, this wraith has an azure aura (remembrance of orrian magic perhaps, or orrian scrolls), as opposed to the typical zhaitany green, a unique feature (if I’m not mistaken)–I wonder if its identity (in other words, who it once was) will be of any importance.
EDIT: it sounds like Anise is speaking this line.

Mercenary 1(?): “These roaming undead ended hinder the flow of energy!”
Mercenary 2(?): “We must feed them to the lava, to his fires!”

Jaken.6801

• Lava in Orr?

If these lines are indeed spoken by Balthazar’s mercenaries [“We must feed [the overcharged undead] to the lava, to his fires!”] the “God of Fire” has already had an influence in the region, either directly or indirectly, as in: either he produced the lava and the fires or those were already present and he just took advantage of them… given how powerful he has become though I suspect he is the direct cause of this inferno.
However, it sounds like these lines have a ghostly tinge, I wonder what that could mean.

In addition, the figure at 0:40 resembles an earth elemental, main difference being that it is on the verge of melting and it’s now formed by igneous rocks (duh).

Livia (?): “The time has come. You ready to fullfil a prophecy? Go! Save the world. Save Tyria.”

I didn’t personally recognize Livia’s voice (got the clue on reddit) but it definitely appears to be hers–I wonder if she’s the azure wraith herself. Also, the word prophecy here can’t not recall to our minds the Flameseeker Prophecies; “the exact wording of the [flameseeker] prophecies is unknown [and] Glint seems to be the only one fully aware of it” (quoting from the wiki)–either we’re talking about a different prophecy here (in the trailer) or Glint was purposely omitting facts to the old tyrian heroes, or perhaps she misinterpreted them herself. Would Aurene even play a big role in this “new” prophecy?
Funnily enough, the very name of the Flameseeker Prophecies could totally fit with Balthazar.


Nice to see that overgrowth is slowly taking roots, and its presence ultimately confirms we’ll be heading to the orrian peninsula. What appears to be stationed sylvari are a really nice touch.

I personally hope (and I can’t really tell why) the new risen dragon shown in the trailer is not a risen wyvern but, from the small glimpse we got, it looks like it will be.


In addition, I doubt Abaddon’s statues will be located in the new orrian map–following his demise, in fact, the other gods were determined to erase him from history and such big representations would have been the first to go. It’s very probable then that the new fractal will revolve around Abaddon, and possibly the other gods.


P.S. The “six eyed flamegolem”, as you described it, is part of the “old footage”, as Killerbot already said. And… the “flying monkey” is a risen knight. I was like: “A flying monkey? How did I miss it?!” lol

I don’t recall a single time after the Exodus where godly Balthazar–or any other human god for that matter (Abaddon and Kormir excluded)–directly interacted with mortals like he recently did in GW2, at least that we know of.

Also, the way he delivers that particular line [“I’ve learned there is no honor in war.”] is not surrounded and defined by anger and remorse as the previous one [“They abated me; dimmed my light… But they will see me now.”] is, which to me indicates that this realization is not necessarily correlated to his fall. In addition, this is the first time we actually encounter him as a character, we have had no real previous encounter for any development to actually take place; the closest we have are scrolls and scriptures.

To conclude on this, not every human has the same perception of Balthazar. Similarly to how greeks regarded Ares, tyrians regard Balthazar from two perspectives: on one hand he embodies the physical valor and strength necessary for success in war, on the other he was overwhelming, insatiable in battle, destructive, and man-slaughtering.
However, even amongst his followers, it’s believed that glory (honor) does not come with war alone, it will be a recognition for proving valor and bravery, to not hesitate nor stumble against difficulties (as written in his scriptures), hence assuming a broader meaning amongst tyrians, not just linked to military war.


@Aaron Ansari As you say, it’s really hard to try to guess how and/or why the dagger is there with the few informations we have as of now. However, if Balthazar is directly involved with how the knife ended there, the only reason I see (as of now) for him to even be in the Bastion to begin with would concur with the crazy “Lazarus was Balthazar’s alter ego” theory–this idea is obviously holed.

Two of my main focal points were: the similarities with the greek god Ares, which are even deeper now that Balthazar was defeated (and to quote an orrian scroll, this might be a repeating pattern: “It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong.”); that question I posed at the start: how (or even why) did Balthazar know about Lazarus in the first place?

I failed to indicate a couple of my thoughts: as you suggest, I pictured him already weakened when posing as Lazarus (and I think the infamous “Abaddon Fractal” would definitely answer something in this regard), though not as much as in GW2 times priorly to his “rebirth”. I also failed to indicate that I don’t think it was a one-man mission, meaning that Balthazar was sent on Tyria following an agreement with the other four gods (who are theoretically an harmonious group); perhaps he had a selfish intent to regain some power in the process. Perhaps, following the disruption of the Door of Komalie, he was abandoned on Tyria.

About him being instrumental in founding a competing faith… humans won wars only thanks to Balthazar’s intervention, either direct (as in him personally fighting) or indirect (as imbuing others with his magic), hence his loss of power would not ensure a success amongst his human followers, and the Zaishen have slowly drifted apart from solely honoring Balthazar; had he the intention to survive he would need to have a better plan (view the Maguuma Bloodstone and the White Mantle).
Also, following the Exodus the human gods vowed to stop caring about Tyria in general, not just humans, and Abaddon’s defeat saw their final link with this world broken in their minds.

The risk of being unmasked was minimum for Balthazar when posing as a mursaat, as blind fanaticism gets in the way: not even the mursaat’s total annihilation was enough for White Mantle zealots to realize the Unseen Ones were no gods, and as far as we know Caudecus was the first leader who was cautiously trying to depart from honoring the mursaat.


Ultimately the timeline got really weird, as you also said, and this is just a fun idea that arose from connecting dots, perhaps wrongly.

This is a great catch! If the knives are actually connected there’s a chance Balthazar might have been in the Bastion of the Penitent–unfortunately the motives would be obscure.

Before I go on, it’s important for me to pose the following question: how did Balthazar even know about Lazarus in the first place? Try to keep this in mind.

I doubt the former God of War and Fire was being held captive by the mursaat.
It’s likely that Balthazar was already in possession of Lyssa’s mirror at the time, hence disguising himself as a mursaat, moving undisturbed amongst the Unseen Ones–there might even be a remote chance (very remote) that Lazarus was Balthazar in disguise all this time along, since GW1 times, and was a focal point in driving the mursaat as a whole in contrasting Abaddon’s return (tricking and using the mursaat in the process of course).
The actual reasons for him to be in the Bastion though are hard to tell… would you let me continue with the “Lazarus has always been Balthazar” theory I could argue that he was there–posing as Lazarus of course–when Saul d’Alessio was taken away and he might have obliged himself to never let Saul free and risk the dismantle of what he contributed to create (the final scope being contrasting Abaddon and coincidentally his brother Menzies). This would render Deimos as a creation of Balthazar, and there might be evidence for this, even if coming from outside of the game.

Some of the inspirations for Balthazar could have easily come from Ares and Hephaestus, the Greek gods of, respectively and generally, war and fire. Similarly to Hephaestus, Balthazar is also an incredible blacksmith but more important here are some features shared with Ares (and the direct encounter with Balthazar gave us insights about his true nature): the embodiment of the most violent aspects of war, often bloodthirsty; Ares’s value as a war god is placed in doubt at least once and he often faces humiliation and defeat; the affiliation with dogs.
This brings me to Deimos–what a peculiar name to choose for this situation. In Greek mythology Deimos is a personification and/or an abstraction of the sheer terror that is brought by war, definition which by itself ties well with Saul’s character, but Deimos is also often depicted as being the son of Ares, the god of war–what a wierd coincidence, isn’t it?

In an interesting and not so unrelated note, in the Kabbalah Balthazar is the name of a demon who controls Shadows (not implying anything here, just an interesting remark).


Regardless of all of this, will the Eye of Janthir play a bigger role in the future? I think its GW2 visual representation makes it assume a sort of cosmic relevance–I always had the weird impression the Eye was helping us navigate the Bastion, an impression validated by the fact that it curses us with the Gift of True Sight without which opening the warden’s door would be close to impossible (unless a thief happens to be in the vicinity of course).

The resemblance to insectoids is undeniable, from the face to the exoskeleton, but the wing-like appendages are very different from those of a mantid, and they definitely appear to be a mimicry of wyvern’s wings in my opinion–this destroyer appears to be a mixed creation.

On the other hand the tail is very peculiar, presenting a green purulent swollen sack similar to that seen on a couple of chak, which are also insects–what better way to mock a chak than to infuse its destroyer counterpart with death magic (which the chak filter out)?

Still, given the vicinity to the sea, part of Primordus’s inspiration could have arose from a crustacean-like creature.

Not gonna use spoiler tags, since the whole thread is tagged as a spoiler.

To briefly comment on the episode, I personally think that, overall, it was developed and resolved impressively, it unmasked some mysteries while giving rise to many more; it really surprised me, in a good way. Also the new map, Draconis Mons, is amazing–I still need to explore it with the attention it deserves, but a terraformed underground habitat? That was unexpected.

To touch on the mysteries, both solved and unsolved, we finally know who was posing as Lazarus all this time: a highly weakened, no-more-godlike Balthazar. This is a big deal, since this is the first time we directly interact with a human god (one of the former pantheon, so I’m not counting Kormir)–or, to use an asuran vocabulary, with “one of the Mist beings worshipped by humans”–and it is the truest depiction of such a being we’ve ever got.

We know that the God of War and Fire, or what remains of him, was able to conceal himself thanks to a powerful artifact, a magical mirror that, according to Kasmeer, appears to be godly in origin, enchanted by none other than Lyssa herself.
So long, a couple of question come to mind:

1. How did Balthazar know about Lazarus and the implications that would follow?
2. Can the enchanted mirror be truly linked to Lyssa herself or is it merely linkable to illusionary magic and mesmers in general?
3. Who “dimmed the light” of Balthazar in the first place?

1. First things first, it appears that Balthazar was deprived of his godliness and this might have put him in a condition similar to the actual Lazarus: deadly wounded, closer to death than to life, in balance on the very brink of existence; perhaps this is how he met with Lazarus and decided to usurp his position.
Is the actual Lazarus, as Marjory suggests, still persisting though? Afterall, we did not interact in this episode with the supposed “switched” Lazarus’s aspect.

2. If the mirror actually comes from Lyssa, the possibilities are close to endless and possibly equally wrong, for example: was the goddess directly involved or did Balthazar manage to steal it? Did Lyssa aid Balthazar for a specific reason? And so on… you might see what I mean.
However, what if that mirror, given that it resulted in an image of Lazarus, was one of those artifacts, collected by Xera, hosting an aspect of Lazarus?

3. We don’t know who dimmed Balthazar’s light–or even when exactly–, what we know however is that it must be a group of people, or two at the very least, as Balthazar himself refers to the cause of his demise plurally. Was it the remaining five human gods? Did his brother Menzies, aided by Dhumm, finally succeed in taking him over? Perhaps it’s someone completely different and unheard of until now, but unfortunately I don’t think we can really tell at this point.


In addition, we don’t really know where the human gods took their magics from originally: if the magic they absorbed was native to Tyria or to somewhere else, but Balthazar definitely absorbed part of the magic that was accumulated inside the Maguuma Bloodstone and, just now, magic from an Elder Dragon. To me, this means that magic is ultimately its own thing, independent from the user, be it a dragon, a god or even a human.

Lastly, Balthazar appears as a human, as his depictions had suggested (if not human, it certainly resembles one); we know Kormir was certainly a human, and that Grenth might have been human, and that many representations of the human gods display them with human characteristics, even Abaddon: had the human gods been human in origin would explain the initial interest in the human race.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Jaken.6801:

Without having played the story, I asume Primordus has an actual physical body, that isn’t just a big beeing out of lava/magma?

What a shame. I thought the theory of every dragon being like their “element” was solid.
I mean we had the dead body Zaithan and planty Mordremoth.

He had a volcanic skull sticking out of lava similar to how the Mouth of Mordremoth was growing out of Maguuma Jungle.

When gliding close enough to Primordus you can actually see scales–quite gigantic ones, of course–on top of its snout. Given this, it definitely looks like it was a former tyrian being in origin, who got twisted and corrupted in the flesh through the ages by that same magic he uses; those scales are now nothing more than just a remnant of who it once was.
He also has an enormous underbite–poor thing must be in pain.

Aaron Ansari.1604

Personally, I find this much more interesting than the question of who Lazarus is. The dragon research is a possibility, as is the map that seems to show where Primordus is… but it’s more interesting to me to think that he’s after Omadd’s machine, just recently delivered to Taimi. It would explain the timing, and he might be able to do much, much more interesting things with it than with research on Primordus.

Good point about Omadd’s machine, that would definitely be a better and more direct source of information than Taimi’s studies.
When we last spoke with Taimi she was having the heart of Omadd’s machine delivered to Rata Novus–it looks like she is determined to build her own machine around a fundamental core. Following this, the device we see at 0:33 could definitely be part of “Taimi’s machine”.
However, that machine isn’t placed inside Taimi’s lab, but in the room hosting that–to use Taimi’s words in “Buried Insight”–"huge telescope", which could definitely be part of the machine itself.
Interestingly enough, the device we see in the trailer kind of resembles the figure of Scruffy. Could have Taimi fused the project of Scruffy 2.0 with that of reproducing Omadd’s machine? And if so, would it still work as an armor of sort, meaning that Taimi is already inside the machine when Lazarus is approaching?

Aaron Ansari.1604

Another thought- two episodes left, and we still don’t have a clear region or plot thread for the next expansion. It’s possible there’ll be an abrupt turn yet, or that this resumed interest in the destroyers means that it’ll be Primordus and the Ring of Fire after all, but I’m a little excited by the possibility of one that’s scattered across the map.

By how they pose it, it totally looks like we’ll start to get an answer by this penultimate episode, and the finale will definitely be expositive in this regard, presenting something major and explosive in my opinion.
I’m of the idea that there will definitely be an abrupt turn, as you say.

The idea of a geographically scattered expansion is indeed exciting, given the amount of interesting areas waiting to be explored in Tyria, but it looks like the job of inspecting “random” maps is attributed to the Living World–however, this isn’t at all definitive.

I’d like to consider the few lines we get with the trailer along with what we see:

Can’t tell if either Marjory or the PC: “One of Lazarus’s aspects… without it they could have never resurrected Lazarus–the real Lazarus.”

It appears we will interact with the supposed aspect of Lazarus that was switched following Caudecus’s orders. However, other sources of information make it look like that switch was never made in the first place. Where’s the truth here? I guess we’ll find out soon.

Taimi: “Mortal danger, a mursaat/not a mursaat on the way.”

Kasmeer: “He’s on the way? What should we do?”

It’s reasonable to think that Lazarus is on the way to Taimi’s laboratory in an attempt to learn more about the Elder Dragons, specifically Primordus perhaps, and it’s probable he was directed there by none other than Marjory herself. However, it’s Taimi to inform Kasmeer that he’s on the way there and, assuming Marjory is already with them, the necromancer did not willingly bring Lazarus there.

Marjory: “He’s trapped us here.”

Does Marjory refer to them being trapped in the lab or is there something more? Did he disable the asura gate and Kasmeer’s mesmering portals as well?

Kasmeer: “No. It can’t be!”

First of all, given that Kasmeer is a powerful mesmer, it seems to me that she is the one attempting to unmask Lazarus, which would explain the mesmering magic surrounding the mursaat while in the lab. Assuming it was her, she looks very surprised to see the result of her work–was someone she knew “dressing up” as Lazarus? Somehow, I doubt this is the case.
Given that these characters–PC included–might be biased by the knowledge of one of Lazarus’s aspect not being used in the rituals (and, as I pointed out at the top of my post, this might be a false knowledge) or, in other words, that it is unlikely Lazarus is infact the real Lazarus, I could conclude that realizing that he is in fact Lazarus would result in a surprise for Kasmeer.
However, could that hint of flames behind/surrounding Kasmeer when she speaks this line be of any clue about something?

Possibly Almorra Soulkeeper: “The lies, the willingness to kill to get what he wants.”

Assuming the talker is referring to Lazarus, the lies outspoken by the mursaat have been acknowledged as such by now, hence it seems reasonable to think that this statement will be made after the true identity of Lazarus gets revealed; according to that statement, it would follow that, whoever Lazarus really is, we’re dealing with a male character nonetheless.

The most sensible reply would be that we don’t know and cannot answer this for now, but that’s no fun–from the few informations we have I think we can try and make a guess.

Given the mere fact that the Elder Dragons can even die in the first place, that they can be devoided of the energies they accumulated, I assume they’re fundamentally not different from any other tyrian being, ergo they must have a soul.

Now, unless unexpected forces come into play, the souls of the departed will automatically “travel” to the spirit world; it follows that beings don’t really die this way, as their soul, their mind, will persist on another plane of existence. We know however that souls are made up of energy, and it appears that said energy can be drained and/or consumed–would this happen to anyone, their will, their “personal essence”, will cease to exist for good (as far as we know).

So, what’s the case with the Elder Dragons? Personally, I think that both their physical body and their soul get destroyed simultaneously–it’s as if, upon the destruction of the body, the amounts of magical energies at play are so enormous and uncontrollable that the soul gets torn apart. In other words, it appears that a physical body plays a fundamental role in being able to maintain extremely high concentrations of magical energies.

This would be similar, in a way, to what happened with Abaddon, when he was destroyed within the Realm of Torment, and, as we know, he was trying to “rebuild” a body for himself.

The closest thing we could theoretically get to Abaddon would be in the form of a “revenant legend”; in other words nothing more than just a resonance of his soul still lingering throughout the Mists, but nothing more than an echo.
In addition, we could still interact with him–and the other human gods–in the infamous “Abaddon fractal”.

It’s highly improbable, if not impossible, that the mursaat we interacted with is Abaddon in disguise; in fact, I doubt it even is someone in disguise.
The whole point of Lazarus not complying to his historical swearing is pretty clear: he has been reborn, he can now see the “bigger picture”; the races of Tyria are just “tiny cogs” in the totality of the All and plain vengeance would be shallow. Him abandoning the typical mursaat nomenclature, specifically the designation of “the Dire”, can be intended as a further indication of this.

How was Lazarus able to absorb the power of a bloodstone though? When thinking about that, it’s useful to consider that “the sacrifices at Salvation Pass were meant to heal him”; whatever the “healing process” implies, it’s possible he also grew stronger in the process–who knows how many souls were used? One thing seems sure however: Lazarus was influenced and changed by that, the “ritual of awakening” was a preparation for the final act, “the ritual of renewal”–the two are intertwined.

In relation to the bloodstones, we also know the mursaat knew how to handle those quite well, using them to manipulate souls to their advantage. Moreover, it’s interesting that when transported into the “demon’s realm” by the Eye of Janthir, during Deimos’s encounter, we can witness some kind of crystalline formations reminiscent of mursaat’s constructions (jade constructs and whatnot), which in return resemble bloodstones. In addition, during that same final encounter, we can witness crystals very similar in appearance to bloodstone fragments “flying out” of demonic tears–I really doubt the similarities are unintentional here, but I’m digressing.

Konig Des Todes.2086

“Temple of” is a nomenclature not tied to Lazarus, but the White Mantle in general.
[…] I was going to quote Xera, but I decided not to because if Bauer did trick Xera (whether he also tricked Caudecus or not), she would remain unknowing of this trickery and would believe the ritual will complete regardless of her death.

I wasn’t referring to the “temple of” scheme, but to “Awakening” and “Renewal”, both directly intended for Lazarus. Firstly Lazarus had to be awakened, and just later could he be renewed.
Lazarus is in a stasis chamber, that means that his essence was still critically injured and he was kept alive–it appears that his whole essence was twisted when he reabsorbed that corrupted aspect, back in GW1.
Xera seemed pretty confident that Lazarus’s rebirth would be completed, regardless if she lived or not, and given that she was the last line of defense for the stasis chamber, she must have known about someone else aiding her task somewhere else.
Unless Justiciar Bauer lied even in his own memoirs, I don’t see why he would want to trick both Caudecus and Xera.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[Lazarus] was forced to abandon the aspect due to what happened to it in GW1, and that to become close to what he once was before he needed a “replacement” for it.

I think it’s obvious that, upon absorbing the last but corrupted aspect, back in GW1, Lazarus’s entirety was twisted in the process, forcing him to re-split completely, without an easy way back this time around. “My power twists upon itself! What have you done to me?”; couldn’t he simply remove the twisted aspect, by isolating it? Clearly not, as it became part of the whole once more, corrupting the whole essence in the process.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The entire scene is “formed from an empty space”

The whole scene, this magic echo thing that happened, isn’t different from what we witnessed in the Cathedral of Silence, with Grenth’s followers, and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance, when we witnessed orrian funerary rites.
While it’s obvious that the scenes appear from nothing, I was referring to the apparition of Lazarus’s body, which–the body–is mostly invisible; only the torso is obviously showing, and we slowly see allusions to arms and a head, there’s not an instantaneous apparition.
What I’m actually saying is: it appears clear that, even if you were there witnessing the event as it was happening, and hence not a magic echo, you would still see a brilliant body appearing from nothingness.

Konig Des Todes.2086

And I definitely do not see any idolizing by Bauer.

Idolizing might be a bit too extreme for Bauer, given that Matthias’s zealotry appears to bother him, still, as you also pointed out, “Bauer appears to be a believer in the Unseen Ones”, and particularly he believes in Lazarus, the last mursaat (or should we say the last living mursaat?).
He clearly recognizes Lazarus as the White Mantle’s true leader, posing him above Caudecus; unless, of course, he’s lying even in his own memoirs…

@Konig Good reconstruction of the events.
It’s almost certain that Bauer lied to Caudecus, and I don’t think Caudecus even knows how to certify the artifact’s authenticity–Lazarus is way more important to Bauer than Caudecus, and he’s regarded as the White Mantle’s ultimate leader.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The ritual which destroyed the bloodstone is an entirely SEPARATE event from the ritual to revive Lazarus!

There were indeed two separate rituals, just not as separate as you pose them to be I think: one happened in the Temple of Awakening, in the Stronghold of the Faithful, and the other happened in the Temple of Renewal, right under the Maguuma Bloodstone; the nomenclatures appear to imply they might have been complementary to each other, that’s what the whole “Operation Rebirth” should be all about. Everything seems to point to Xera and Bauer sharing the same intents.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Bauer performed the ritual not to improve Lazarus, but instead to improve himself.

Upon accomplishing the ritual, we clearly see a body being formed from an empty space; that pretty much rules out Bauer performing the ritual on himself I think. In this scenario, Lazarus could/would still be sleeping in the stasis chamber.
I think it’s more likely that Bauer died amongst the others while performing the ritual.
It’s kinda obvious, from his memoirs, that Bauer idolizes Lazarus.


Another thing to add to all of this is that, while fighting Xera, she can be heard saying: “He is almost complete. Even if I die, He will live.”
What did she actually mean with that? Is there a possibility that the fifth and last artifact wasn’t even found? Or was she simply referring to the rituals?

We don’t have enough knowledge on how Lazarus’s splitting worked/works, or what the aspects themselves are and/or how do they work, but I think it’s safe to say that what happened in the past is very different from what happened just recently.
For what we know, upon assimilating the last twisted aspect, back in GW1, all of his essence might have got twisted in the process, posing him at risk and forcing him to re-split himself, this time going into some kind of hibernation, with the “turn-off switch” being directly unaccessible to the mursaat.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] replace the magic lost with that fifth aspect

We don’t even know how these aspects work.
This view would render the aspects disposable, and utterly useless in the end; why even care about recovering the aspects in the first place then?


One last thing: if we’re dealing with an impostor (which I don’t think is the case), we are dealing with a mursaat nonetheless.

P.S. I pushed the Anomaly thing a bit, following the few visual similarities we got–as far as we know, every living being’s essence might appear in a similar way (look at the updated mystic forge transformations for example).

You both make a good point regarding Bauer–it’s not entirely clear from his memoirs what his personal priority is. Even though it was him to firstly propose the weaponization of the bloodstone to the confessor, posing “Operation Rebirth” as only a secondary objective, he’s pretty excited about the eventual success of the ritual in his very last entry, and he’s ready to proceed with their leader’s virtuous pursuits–it’s quite possible that he was one of those zealots who perished in said ritual too.

He’s willing to please both Caudecus and Xera, but who did he betray in the end? I guess this, and everything that follows, is still a mystery.

Aaron Ansari.1604

According to the dialogue, anyway, that aspect was in Caudecus’ desk, and we already have it and are sending it along to the Shining Blade to find out if it really is a bit of mursaat essence.

That must have slipped through my mind, thanks for pointing this out.

Aaron Ansari.1604

For that matter, what would have happened if they’d succeeded? If Lazarus had to split into aspects to survive, why would a couple hundred years sealed inside a lamp change that? Did the Mantle even think that far ahead, or were they too fixated on having their god back? Did swallowing a bloodstone prove to be the pill needed to cure him?

Back in GW1 Lazarus split himself into aspects in order to survive the threat of the Titans, and was seemingly able to reassemble all by himself, one aspect at a time, without the need of absorbing enormous quantities of magic (supposedly).
Once he claimed his final but corrupted aspect, he was forced to go into recovery, seemingly not by choice. It appears that he had to inform someone of his imminent re-splitting, directly or not–supposedly someone from the White Mantle. Was the stasis chamber commissioned by Lazarus roughly 250 years ago?

Absorbing an immense quantity of magic appears to have been an essential process though, and might have healed the corruption (whatever that was); however, he didn’t swallow a bloodstone, he simply absorbed a “bloodstone’s worth of magic”, as in quite a lot of magic.

Episode 4 SPOILERS ahead. You’ve been warned.


In the living story step “Confessor’s End” we learn what happened to Lazarus the Dire after his plans were ruined back in GW1, roughly 250 years ago.
From notes laying on Caudecus’s desk, we read about how Xera was somehow able to discover what happened to Lazarus: “after Lazarus’s aspects were tainted so long ago, he was forced to re-split himself… this time into artifacts rather than living vessels”; and not just that, but also that “Xera [had] already found four of the five aspects”.

Caudecus would not allow Xera to complete the ritual, he would not “allow this ‘Unseen One’ to disrupt [his] plans”; he obviously resorted to subterfuge to contrast Xera.
Following Caudecus’s orders, Justiciar Bauer managed to swap one of those four aspects with a fake just in time before Xera took off north to the Stronghold of the Faithful.
The swapped aspect was not destroyed by Caudecus, as he didn’t want “that mursaat’s essence near [his] home”; the original artifact was seemingly hidden away somewhere safe, still intact.


We can’t be sure if Xera ever found the fifth aspect and/or if the ritual was ever completed; it seems however that an attempt was made by Xera’s followers in the Temple of Renewal, right before the Maguuma Bloodstone exploded–was the explosion actually catalyzed by this event?

In the living story step “A Shadow’s Deeds”, we, together with Caithe, jump-start a magic echo to try and figure out what happened in the Temple of Renewal. The echo takes place and what appears to be an Anomaly (or, to use Caithe’s words, “a brilliant light, devouring magic”) absorbs an immense quantity of magic, incidentally limiting the damages caused by the bloodstone’s explosion.


Was that Anomaly actually Lazarus? I personally think it was.
Was Caudecus’s plan successful? I think so, indeed–partially at least. Afterall, Lazarus was able to walk around while still being incomplete back in GW1.
Is Lazarus trying to save Tyria and its inhabitants? Probably. But who will he save this world for?

What I think might happen is that we’ll try to locate Lazarus’s final aspect, the one that was swapped and hidden by Caudecus (assuming Xera found the fifth and last aspect and that the reborn mursaat is 4/5 complete), to possibly blackmail him.


P.S. Is it now safe to assume that Anomalies are indeed phased mursaat?

EDIT/UPDATE:

• The supposed switched-out artifact was in Caudecus’s desk–we already have it and will proceed to send it to the Shining Blade, to find out if it really hosts a bit of the mursaat’s essence.
• Justiciar Bauer was almost certainly lying to Caudecus in his response letter–everything seems to indicate that he never actually switched the artifacts.

I really enjoyed the new raid and how they dealt with the story, very surprising and revealing–not all was revealed of course. It totally seems like they might finally go in the direction of “angels and demons” following the eventual defeat of the Elder Dragons.


While the Realm of Torment is obviously out of question, in the final boss encounter we get ported by the Eye (or, to use Deimos’s words, “the Eye has chosen its sacrifice!”) in what seems to be another dimension, and quite a twisted one–this could very well be Saul’s own mind though, as when approaching Saul for the first time, he says: “Have you come to crawl inside my head? Join the others? There’s no more room”.
While in this dimension we can break the “demonic chains binding [Saul]” that are keeping him in a state of eternal penitence–or confining him until he finally surrenders to the nightmares infesting his mind–what’s peculiar though is that Saul himself warns us of leaving the place, else we will “make him angry”, “[we]’ll let him out”–was Deimos also confined? Was Deimos a creation of Saul’s own mind? Is Deimos a twisted perception of how Saul might have envisioned himself in the darkest recesses of his mind had he ever succumbed to the mursaat?
Deimos’s description reads “Agent of the Unseen” afterall, and could be a reference to Saul’s fear of eventually giving in to the mursaat.

Alternatively, Deimos might be an agent of the Eye itself. We obviously associate the term “unseen” with the mursaat, but what if the ultimate “unseen” is actually the Eye of Janthir? What if what we see of the Eye is just a window for a powerful interdimensional entity to watch and interact through?

I can’t not think of Kanaxai in all of this, who was said to come from a place deeper than the Mists… we might be talking about a complete new dimension here, potential parallel or alternate universes of some sort perhaps, and the Mists would be the “in-between”.

I really hope this isn’t the last time we’re going to meet with the Eye of Janthir.

Also, as an interesting note, while trying to unlock the Warden’s door–right before Samarog’s encounter IIRC–the Eye curses us with the Gift of True Sight; True Sight is defined as a curse.

Reminder: how the Eye and the mursaat are connected is still unexplained.
Also, celestials’s involvement (just saying).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Though the exact circumstances behind the prison are still unknown to me, though.

Glenna talks about the penitentiary as being a holding for potential political threats for the jailers–we know “the mursaat commissioned this place” and it’s implied by a sketch found in a journal that “[the prisoners] constructed this facility with their own hands”.

While Samarog certainly recalls the appearance of a demon, I don’t think he is one; according to Glenna he was a prisoner like others, just one tasked with supervising over others; when he broke free “the Warden killed most of these prisoners”. When asking Glenna what that creature was though, she obviously doesn’t have a clue.
What I personally find interesting is the fact he has four arms, a similar feature to the Seers and the Forgotten–I guess he could have been part of an ancient race forgotten in time (and space perhaps).

@Konig

I wonder if the portal will lead us in the vicinity of another Bloodstone, one that was being used by the Mursaat for a different purpose. Don’t forget that the Door of Komalie was a portal situated right in front of a Bloodstone, and that same Bloodstone could have contributed–directly or undirectly–to the creation of said portal.
Also, I guess a portal would be more stable than a rift (unless the two are the same thing).

Still, I don’t see how this “bastion”, this “ancient place”, would have traces of the White Mantle still present to this day; unless those following Lazarus were sent there by the reborn mursaat himself for whatever reason. If this were the case, we could be asked by Lazarus to aid his cause and assist his followers.
The other scenario for the presence of the White Mantle would be that Caudecus found out something and sent forces to this bastion, or even tried to reach it by himself.

The thought of a penitent titan is very appealing, but why would he be imprisoned? Would it constitute itself to the Mursaat? Would it be regarded as a wild card, some kind of ultimate defense against other titans? Would it be subject to experimentations? Suggestive but problematic scenario I guess.

The idea of Livia being the penitent is also interesting, but how would the White Mantle capture her without the aid of a mursaat? Perhaps, if it turns out that she actually turned into a lich, the White Mantle could have used the Scepter of Orr to control her (if that’s even possible) and imprison her, hence the Scepter could still be located inside the bastion. If the events inside the raid will chronologically happen priorly to the “siege of Divinity’s Reach”, there’s a chance, in this scenario, that we could rescue Livia and let her attend the Shining Blade once again (hence appearing in the actual living world episode, but not as being Anise).
Also, as Aaron pointed out, she would be imprisoned for a maximum of 74 years–I doubt anything but ancient Mursaat’s defenses would still be operational in such a sealed place, defenses such as Jade Armors and the bound guardians (in other words, no actual White Mantle presence).

Unless–last minute crazy speculation–the whole thing will kind of function as a fractal and we will go back in time to retrace how the White Mantle was able to locate and rescue the hibernated Lazarus, whom appears to be the ultimate penitent.

According to a spoilery leak – which I’m not going to directly address here – it appears we won’t be interacting with the Realm of Torment; it seems instead that the next raid could be dealing with the White Mantle, and to our knowledge the “penitent” could well be Saul d’Alessio. However, I can’t find a reason of why they’d be so willing to guard over him instead of just murdering him, and, since Saul was taken by the Mursaat, I wonder if we’ll actually meet any exponent from the White Mantle in the end.

Could then isolated Mursaat still be alive somehow? Could we meet with Lazarus inside the raid? I wonder if Caudecus heading to the isles of Janthir has anything to do with this.

Still, this astonishing piece of art for the raid, released on twitter by Anet, shows a giant four-horned skull, a kind of demonic imagery that, to my knowledge, is apparently unconnected to both the White Mantle and the Mursaat.

Ultimately, I really wonder who (or what) the penitent will turn out to be.


Regarding the Forgotten though, it would make sense that remnants of the race could still be in the Realm of Torment, aiding Kormir’s deed, as most of them–if not all–were isolated from the events happening in Tyria. As a consequence the Forgotten living on Tyria would not be able to acknowledge their brothers’ faith and would assume all of them to be dead, or if anything they’d think of them as being zealot custodians of that Realm.

I wonder however, as it remains a mystery, why those still living on Tyria all died off if their lifespan can actually be measured in millennia, unless those living in the Realm of Torment were blessed with a prolonged life by the human gods.

A prison would make sense, given the Realm’s history, but given that (as far as we’re told) the Forgotten went extinct, I wonder: who would the prison wardens, and as a consequence the captives, be?
With an opposite approach, demons and Margonites could make sense as jailers, and it could follow that the captives would be Kormir’s followers–perhaps even the same Apostate–but what about Razah? What if he was somehow captured by demons because regarded as some sort of harbinger, destined to fulfill what Abaddon tried but failed to accomplish?

If it turns out to be once again White Mantle related Saul D’Alessio could indeed make sense, but would he still be alive? I wonder why the Mursaat would even consider keeping him alive if not for the sole purpose of making him suffer; unless we’re talking about his spirit.

He is a demagogue.

vectorfox.6894

If its possible i would say he doesn’t have a profession or if he does he isn’t very strong and was hoping the bloodstone would be able to cover his lack of power.

Caudecus being a weak/untrained magic-user would be very appropriate, quite ironic too; I really think this is the case, but if it isn’t I really don’t think we have any clue to what his profession might be.

Narcemus.1348

I know that this doesn’t mean anything, but the woman who is leading the genocide, her voice sounded very similar to Minister Estelle from Party Politics.

Good catch, that definitely seems to be her; this could imply that Minister Estelle might attempt to murder the Queen as soon as the siege starts (she’s been tasked with regicide, not genocide).

Even though I think we will soon get a teaser for the new raid, I’d like to analyze the few information we have as of now thanks to Massively OP:

• The raid’s name is “Bastion of the Penitent”.
• It will be accessible through a mysterious portal, which was generated by the destruction of the Maguuma Bloodstone.
• Once through said portal, raiders will be transported into a sinister and ancient place with little chance of escape.
• Mysteries are still chained behind the bastion’s walls.

These insights don’t really let transpire much, if anything at all, but we can always speculate.

First of all, I’m doubtful it will have a direct link with the White Mantle like the previous raid, mainly because it was stated that this raid will be its own thing, and there’s only one wing, meaning the story must resolve quickly, a hit-and-run situation.

The term “bastion” slowly led me to a connection with the Margonites, with their fortified structures located in the Realm of Torment, such as The Ebony Citadel; the Domain of Anguish itself (part of said Realm) was appointed by the High Priest Zhellix as being “the last bastion of Abaddon’s forces”. As far as we know, the Domain of Anguish was liberated by every remaining demonic being, it was seemingly redeemed on behalf of Kormir, but was the totality of the Realm completely cleansed? We don’t really know.

We know of two Margonites who refuted Abaddon’s way and indoctrination–here is where the “penitent” part comes in. The Lost and the Apostate are both Margonites who, for different but not dissimilar motives, refuted Abaddon and made their part in negating the fulfillment of the prophesied Nightfall; while The Lost would be a better fit for the role of “penitent” than the Apostate, as the former directly expressed his feeling of sorrow and disdain towards the Margonites as a race, I doubt the latter wouldn’t share the same feelings, and the Apostate’s interest for lost knowledge would be way more fitting for the announced mysteries.

“Bastion of the Penitent” could then refer to an old margonite structure located in the Realm of Torment, and the mysteries still confined behind the bastion’s walls could have been overwatched until today by the Apostate, commissioned by none other than Kormir.
This way we could get some more knowledge about the All and the effects of disrupting the balance of magic–while of crucial importance, this could still be regarded as secondary lore, since the overall focus would remain dragons and to an extent the White Mantle as of now.

What would the menace in such a scenario be however? Perhaps some lingering demons still determined to overthrow the Realm–we might encounter The Unseen; perhaps remnants of maddened souls resulting in crazed titans (similarly to Gorseval); perhaps some Bloodstone creations who made their way through the portal.

A counter to all of this could be that we still have to witness a rift, caused by the destruction of the Maguuma Bloodstone, transporting us away from Tyria and into the Mists (assuming rift and portal are interchangeable here).

tl;dr “Bastion of the Penitent” could refer to an old margonite structure (the bastion) located in the Realm of Torment, and the mysteries still confined behind the bastion’s walls could have been overwatched until today by the Apostate (the penitent).

Jaken.6801

• DR great political upheaval. Caudecus stuff starts to create a rift in the human society. Do we now get finaly a civil war? I mena, we forgot the Sylvari incident pretty quick.

“Soldiers, farmers, scholars, all swearing allegiance to the cause, all waiting for the moment to strike” is what Xera boldly told us shortly before dying. This all definitely feels like a civil war, but how much will it impact the actual game?

Jaken.6801

• A centaur white mantle, wielding bloodstone crazed magic?

I’m doubtful centaurs swore allegiance to the White Mantle, given Caudecus’s xenophobia–more likely the centaurs will be a third participant in this conflict. I personally think the one we see wielding a White Mantle staff just picked it up as a consequence of turning crazed.

Jaken.6801

Other interesting things that could come out of it: Divinity’s Reach Catacombs (I can dream)

Unless the new map will surround all of Divinity’s Reach, providing us with an unprecedented shape for a map (but I guess it would still be possible), there’s a chance we could be going underground, as the rectangular area between Harathi Hinterlands and Divinity’s Reach is relatively small, but I doubt it will happen.

I wonder where the water will flow now that a dam will be disrupted–all points to it being Queensdale but who knows.


In addition, I don’t think we are going to meet Caudecus, as he picked a mysterious woman for the job of regicide (I personally wasn’t able to identify her by the voice only)–if Canach was right, the Confessor might have reached the isles of Janthir by now.

This episode also seems like a good chance to reintroduce Kasmeer into the story.
Also, I’m hoping we are gonna get more of Lazarus.

@BlaqueFyre It’s clear for everyone that sylvari are created through the Pale Tree, but it’s also clear that Mordremoth has nothing to do with their actual creation, how they actually come to be is still shrouded in mystery, the Dream of Dreams is still mysterious. What we actually know is that terrible plant creatures (supposedly Mordrem) guarded the very same seeds from which the Pale Tree originated, and we do not know about the seeds’ origin; if Mordremoth could grow new ones at any given time (which I guess it’s a possibility in your view), why even spawn those seeds millennia earlier to actually using them? Unless the seeds are not from Mordremoth and there’s a limited amount of them available to the Dragon: Mordremoth knew about their potential and was determined to exploit them.
You can’t dispute that the statement “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” is very different from the one stating that “sylvari were created as dragon minions”, the official statement implies that sylvari need to be corrupted in order to fall to Mordremoth; sylvari are not inherently dragon minions, they need to be corrupted first.
Mordremoth is like a malevolent adoptive parent who’s willing to abuse and use its adopted children for its own motives.

BlaqueFyre.5678

“When a sylvari becomes a Mordrem Guard, they also transform physically. This was by Mordremoth’s design."

Again stating by his design they will change in appearance.

Mordremoth gets involved only when sylvari get corrupted, it is their physical transformation into Mordrem Guards that’s dictated (designed) by Mordremoth. To quote Scott McGough: “A Mordrem Guard’s appearance is more due to Mordremoth’s ability to control and shape plant life—sylvari are plants, after all, and once Mordy’s mental influence takes hold of a sylvari, it then twists their physical form into this more formidable configuration. It is related to a dark mirror of a sylvari’s ability to change their own appearance, but in this case it’s being directed by Mordy and not the individual”.
You instead stated that sylvari themselves are designed by Mordremoth, which is nowhere to be found, and came from your imagination.

Ultimately, what’s clear is that we lack complete answers on this, and you don’t realize that my view is as viable as yours with the amount of information we have.

P.S. Again, the in-game lore about this just come to us via the sylvari, and they are not a reliable source.

@BlaqueFyre If you actually tried to read what I wrote it’ll be clear that I did not pickpocket any information; try to understand what one is saying instead of blindly saying “sylvari are created by Mordremoth”.

The scenario I propose was built around the informations we have, I do not create lore to support my view, like you do: sylvari were not designed by Mordremoth, you are imagining this; you say that “sylvari are made by Mordremoth” but that’s not the case, we have no clear line stating that and, again, the information given to us by the sylvari is not reliable (and not because I want it to be unreliable); the seeds did not come from Mordremoth, there’s nothing stating that.
You see information where there isn’t.

The Devs are known to leave loose threads for future developments, and my view totally fits in this.

But however I pose it you’re just gonna ignore the points I made.

@BlaqueFyre It seems like you keep going on your route, continuing to repeat the same thing without even considering what I wrote.

• You say “the Pale Tree was created by Mordremoth”, but this isn’t the case, we don’t yet know about the Pale Tree’s origin; you can’t propose this as canon lore.

• The Pale Tree is not omniscent nor immortal, its beliefs could have also been influenced by Mordremoth like those of the sylvari, possibly even through the sylvari’s own beliefs.

• To repeat myself (since you keep assuming sylvari were designed by Mordremoth) the Elder Dragon didn’t design the sylvari, that’s your fallacy; Mordremoth designed the Mordrem Guards’ appearance (thick bark and growth in size).

• Mordremoth shamelessly defined itself as being the very jungle, but it was obviously lying. While we don’t know about the origin of the seeds, we know the Pale Tree’s seed came from the jungle and that it was taken far from its home; supposedly, Mordremoth also knew about the seeds. Mordremoth isn’t then completely lying when “calling them home”, but the thing is that the Elder Dragon is not their home nor their actual creator; it didn’t create the seeds and even less the sylvari.
  Mordremoth did not create the seeds, that’s nowhere to be found, and if you actually believe it to be the case you are just prolonging an assumption.

Ultimately, your view on the sylvari is based on imaginary foundations and as of now you’ve been too uncritical to realize this; and you didn’t answer this question (even though you might think you did): if the sylvari are dragon minions from the start and are simply kept from reverting to their (supposed) true nature by the Pale Tree, would this imply that upon the Pale Tree’s death every sylvari would turn to Mordremoth, even if the Dragon was dead? That would make sense if the sylvari actually were dragon minions, since dragon minions will keep serving their master even after its death.

But sylvari are not dragon minions.

P.S. Icebrood is a wide term, I think you’re referring to the already corrupted Sons of Svanir: these norn willingly chose to follow Jormag, and only the highest in ranks still retain bits of their minds (like it’ll happen with any other Elder Dragon: the dragon minions “highest in rank” retain more of their original minds, but they still lose their free will).

@BlaqueFyre The scenario I propose is a very plausible one, at least as much as the prevalent view that states that “sylvari are dragon minions to begin with”—I don’t blindly wish for my view to be true… allow me to briefly explain:

• It’s clear sylvari weren’t created by Mordremoth, main reason being that new sylvari are being born even after its death.

• The in-game lore about this is given to us just by the perspective of the sylvari and their beliefs could have been influenced by Mordremoth.

• The “official Dev post” says that “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” and not that “sylvari are dragon minions”, there is a difference between these two statements: sylvari have the potential to be turned by Mordremoth, they are not dragon minions as soon as they awaken, it’s very different.
  When you say “sylvari were designed by Mordremoth” you commit a mistake, since that very official post actually states that it was their physical transformation [sylvari transforming into Mordrem] to have been designed by Mordremoth—it’s important to actually understand what’s been written.
  In addition, that official post doesn’t actually imply anywhere that they came from Mordremoth itself, and it definitely looks to me that sylvari spawn from Trees after all (and, unfortunately, we don’t yet know about the Trees’ true origins).

BlaqueFyre.5678

[sylvari] are still dragon minions but with free will unless they fell to Mordremoth calling them home.

I thought the very definition of “dragon minion” implies that the corrupted one loses its free will, but you say sylvari are dragon minions with free will… does thas make sense? Also, if they are created by Mordremoth, how could they keep spawning as dragon minions (since, in your view, they just exist because they were spawned as dragon minions) if the Dragon is now dead?

BlaqueFyre.5678

They were just not initially subjected to Mordremoths will because of plot armor around the Pale Tree with no real explanation by Devs.

Are you undervaluing and not considering the still mysterious lore concerning the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams? It can’t be simply ignored because it’s yet to be explained by the Devs.
I guess then that in your view every single sylvari would immediately turn to Mordremoth upon the Pale Tree’s death, even if that happened after the Elder Dragon’s death.

Ultimately, my take is as valid—if not more—as the most common one.

While it’s not a definitive confirmation, I’d say that from these propagandistic papers we finally found out what Lazarus’s “virtuous pursuits” are: standing to what Caudecus wrote, the reborn mursaat definitely intends to confront the remaining Elder Dragons.

Jhoul.6923

[…] if other Dragons absorb the defeated dragon’s powers; wouldn’t this mean that other dragons would be able to control the sylvari characters?

Mordremoth was able to subjugate and communicate with the sylvari not because of a draconic power, but because of its inherent connection with the Dream of Dreams—this capability was not transmitted to the other Dragons because it was a natural characteristic of Mordremoth itself, one that (supposedly) existed priorly to it becoming an Elder Dragon.

It’s important to remember that sylvari are not dragon minions themselves, they become such only when turned into actual Mordrem. While other Elder Dragons could in theory corrupt the sylvari then, they ultimately can’t do it because—in the end—they aren’t able to access their minds, which is in on itself a fundamental step in the corruption process.


Regarding the ongoing discussion about the overlapping corruption, my take is that an Elder Dragon cannot corrupt those already turned by other Elder Dragons simply because the minions in question were already subjugated by one entity, the minions’ minds cannot be overwritten and/or subjugated furtherly by another Elder Dragon—corrupting others’ dragon minions is impossible for an Elder Dragon.

Concerning what happened in the Crucible of Eternity, there’s no sign that those actually corrupted by the Inquest actually responded to the Elder Dragons, if anything they might have been intended to respond to Kudu.
In the end, the most powerful experiments (Subject Alpha above all) turned out to be some kind of crazed creations, not responding to anyone.

Unfortunately, both Diarmid and Hareth were, to quote: trimmed from the story for scoping and pacing reasons (Adryn is present in “The Jungle Provides”). Whatever insights the story bits involving Mordremoth’s commanders would had given us I think they would have been faithful to what was established with Diarmid in the open world; in other words, Mordremoth’s commanders are indeed corrupted sylvari.

I don’t see how the physical corruption would stop one to recognize who it once were (unless of course there’s no sign left of the original shape): the voice, the posture, the fighting style, perhaps even some still present physical similarities that just a close friend would be able to recognize; all these things could had sparked the connection.

On an unrelated note, the commanders’ singular appearance is reminiscent of Mordremoth’s early concept arts, and if we treat some of that concept’s informations as truthful (and their physical appearance is definitely similar to that concept) Mordremoth would actually be able to see through their cyclopic eyes.

@draxynnic Just to sincerely clarify, I wasn’t referring to fire in the scientific meaning there (since fire is defined as a process), but as the whole ensemble we see, for example, in a lit candle : as a whole, it definitely behaves like a plasma, while perhaps not being the best example of one; it’s like if in trying to teach about liquids you consider working with ketchup (or more generally, with a non-Newtonian fluid): as a whole, it’s not the best example of a liquid for such a task, but it’s still considered as one nonetheless.

To go back on topic: “fire magic”, “air magic”, “water magic” (to name a few), appear to be in my view simply “magical techniques”, and not actual “magical aspects”: they’re not the actual aspects flowing through the ley lines, like what we’re referring to as heat magic would instead be. So, by manipulating the actual magical aspects, magic-users develop various magical techniques: for example, as I already said, using a combination of both heat and cold magic to give birth to what we refer to as “air magic”, by modifying air currents. After all, elementalists need samples of actual elements to perform their “elemental magics”.
Also, heating up water doesn’t fall under “water magic” (which is a magical technique), as you said, but is obtained by heat magic.

Dragon minions (regardless of the Dragon involved) will act the same upon their master’s demise. Unless they have their mind purified (through, for example, the Forgotten’s ritual), they’ll keep pursuing the Dragon’s will, given that the mind was deeply and irredeemably changed, without the need of a continued link with the Dragon.
In my view, this happens even with the Mordrem Guards (unlike others have said): sylvari who still retained a remnant of their will, as implied by Canach (also, it’s just a small pocket of them, definitely not every single one), were able to “revert back”, but those particular Mordrem Guards weren’t fully turned yet, their mind wasn’t changed for good yet.

On a side note, the Inquest was able to bypass the mental corruption with magitech (we see this happen with some Risen in Arah); I doubt it was a definite solution though, since I believe that upon removal of said magitech those dragon minions would revert back to follow their original master’s will.

I think we have some background just for Diarmid actually, and none for both Hareth and Adryn (while we meet Adryn on a prior occasion, we know nothing about it), but I think it’s not a wild speculation to say that they both are, like Diarmid, corrupted sylvari from the pact. Hareth looks seriously intimidating, it would have been nice to have some background on him, even minor, or to meet him somewhere else.

There are many examples of masters however (all corrupted sylvari from the pact in my view):

• Axemaster Gwyllion
• Axemaster Hareth
• Blademaster Cadogg
• Blademaster Cellona
• Blademaster Diarmid
• Hammermaster Morthwyl
• Spellmaster Macsen
• Stavemaster Adryn
• Stavemaster Anwir
• The generic ones encountered when claiming a guild hall
• Possibly many more that we didn’t encounter

It’s like if, to reach the rank of Mordremoth’s commander, there was some kind of contest set up by Mordremoth: those who proved strongest were chosen and given that position.

Erukk.1408

I’m definitely not a scientist, but if we’re being scientific about it; wouldn’t “heat” and “cold” magic be the same exact school? Because the manipulation of hot and cold is just controlling the movement of molecules in a given object.

Those are the magical aspects, it’s like if they are (magical) manifestations of physical concepts, and they seem to work that way in Tyria’s universe.

I’d say that “heat” and “cold” aren’t even a proper physical thing on their own: it’s just, as you said, “the movement of molecules”.

We’re talking magics here.

Narcemus.1348

Just because one is corrupted doesn’t mean that another corruption cannot be laid on you, as is seen in CoE.

Kudu’s monster (or Subject Alpha, and even Kudu himself) didn’t respond to any Dragon as far as we know, it was simply imbued with those magical aspects. Possibly it was intended to respond to Kudu, but more likely it was a crazed abomination, unresponsive (a thing that Subject Alpha definitely was).

Narcemus.1348

This is why I believe that there is something more to the Pale Tree’s freedom from Mordremoth and the Sylvari’s capability to fight his call. Whether you believe it’s the Dream, or a Forgotten Cleansing Ritual, or something beyond all that, who knows.

Thing is that the Dream of Dreams is a fact, and we can “speculate” on that, while there is no “proof” of a cleansing ritual happening with the seeds, and nothing implies that the seeds were corrupted to begin with.

eNeRgOo.5463

First of all – Why there are vines in Bitterfrost Frontier that are alive pumping their juice and magic? It was stated in Heart of Thorns that vines are Mordremoth’s body and when it was killed vines become lifeless like those we can see in Salvation Pass. Could it be Mordremoth trying to rebirth?

It definitely isn’t Mordremoth, it is gone for good. Given that Jormag, but also Primordus (and possibly even the other two remaining Dragons, but we don’t know about them), absorbed some of Mordremoth’s plant magic, I guess the “Elder Ice Dragon” is able to use it as Mordremoth did, in addition to “mixing” said magic to that of its “original” minions. The Vines are referred to as Mordremoth’s body because it generated them and it was directly “guiding” these plant materials with its own mind, hence why they died with it, unlike dragon minions who have their own separate minds.

eNeRgOo.5463

Since Jormag and Primordus got Mordremoth’s power and they can create vine-touched minions plus Jormag seems to have control over vines that are in Bitterfrost Frontier – Are sylvari still immune to dragon’s corruption?

We don’t really have enough details or examples to answer this, but I’ll try:
Sylvari are plants (possibly made from plant magic), this is one of the reasons why Mordremoth was easily able to influence their minds, its “sphere of influence” was plant after all, but the main reason is that they shared a connection to the Dream of Dreams.

Sylvari’s uncorruptible nature stems from their connection to the Dream of Dreams, their minds are protected, aided in resisting corruption. Again, Mordremoth had somewhat of an upper hand, on one side because sylvari are plants, but mainly because it had a connection to the Dream of Dreams itself: other Dragons do not have such a link so it’d be very difficult, if not impossible, for other Dragons to corrupt sylvari: Zhaitan’s magic simply killed them, since the Dragon wasn’t able to enter their mind and corrupt them.

On an unrelated note, the “sphere of influence” isn’t even a proper thing, but it’s just a sign that a powerful entity possesses an immense amount of a particular magical aspect and is able to control minor entities affected (imbued) by it, if it wants to. It’s not like Mordremoth’s “sphere of influence” got divided evenly (or unevenly) amongst other powerful entities: it was its magic that got spread out all over Tyria (and possibly not just plant magic, since the Dragons also eat all the magical aspects that flow through the ley lines). So, both Primordus and Jormag absorbed some plant magic, and not “a quarter of the influence” or “a sixth of the influence”.

eNeRgOo.5463

When Zhaitan was active – there were rumours that Sylvari are immune to it’s corruption because they’re dragon race, and dragons cannot corrupt other dragons minions, but what about situation we have now?

Neither Jormag nor Primordus corrupted existing dragon minions, they still created their own, even the new ones imbued with “new” magics. For now, we don’t know if there are other ways to “liberate” a dragon minion’s mind other than the Forgotten’s ritual (and while we know why it works, we don’t know the details on how it works); so dragon minions “switching sides” is not a thing for now.

With this, however, I’m not implying that sylvari are dragon minions, since they are not born influenced by Mordremoth.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Sylvari are not Corrupted and cannot be corrupted, they are Dragon Minions as stated in game and by Devs, they were created as Dragon Minions so there is nothing to corrupt. As stated in This Link

Sylvari are not corrupted (that’s the only true thing), but sylvari can be corrupted, that’s what Mordrem Guards are: sylvari corrupted by Mordremoth, influenced in the minds and transfigured in the body by the Dragon (the thick bark and the growth in size). Just Mordremoth was able to corrupted them because it shared a connection to the Dream of Dreams with the sylvari (but also because sylvari are plants afterall).

Dragon minions are, by definition, former entities corrupted (both in the body and the mind) by a respective Dragon.

Sylvari are indeed created (and not by Mordremoth in my personal view, one of the reasons being that sylvari are still spawning after Mordremoth’s death), but they’re not dragon minions until corrupted. In the end, that link states that “sylvari were created to be dragon minions”, and not that, as you say, “sylvari were created as dragon minions”, that’s very different, and it implies that a corruption is needed in order to turn them.

draxynnic.3719:

And what is fire magic?

Fire magic, or what we’re now referring to as heat magic, seems to be an ancient magical representation/correspondant of actual physical heat: given that the Mind is stricly linked to magic, magic-users are able to interact with these ancient magics (as old as Tyria’s universe itself probably), making interactions with the environment.

So, for example, an elementalist will use heat magic to spark actual fires and control them (and fire is actually a plasma by the way), or to warm physical water until creating hot vapor, or to meld earth, giving birth to what we refer to as “fire magic”; it will use cold magic to freeze water, generating ice; it will use a combination of both heat and cold magic to create air currents, and coincidentally lightnings, giving birth to what we refer to as air magic; it will use order magic (which in my view here is equal to restoration magic) to heal and restore through water, giving birth to what we refer to as water magic. How they are able to tap into those ancient magics can however just happen thanks to the Mind and its intrinsic connection to the magical aspects of Tyria’s universe.

We can then refer to Tyria’s physics with a different term: magiphysics.

Considering mesmers, they’re able to manipulate the very space and time, the very reality, or at least they’re able to generate the illusion of such (probably they’re able of doing both). Given that the Mists are the building blocks of reality, magic has a very deep tie to Tyria’s universe, it’s a fundamental and indispensable presence. By channeling then the primordial chaos magic (possibly even the opposite, order magic) mesmers are able to fiddle around with the very reality, and even with minds.

I think that every magic-user can and will use every single aspect of magic in some way – it will just focus on one more than another most of the time (an extreme example of this is given by the Elder Dragons).

In conclusion, while heat and cold magics are indeed opposites, if they’ll meet in controlled and thought-out ways, they won’t “annihilate” each other, they will merge and reach an equilibrium. So, for example, cold magic transfigured the very physical appearance of most icebrood, it coalesced into “magical ice”; when met by enough heat magic, they’ll slowly reach an equilibrium, given that the “magical ice” got “melted” away by “magical fire”. This is the reason why actual physical flames won’t weaken icebrood crystalline armors as good as heat magic will do; we’re talking magics here.

@cocodragon, @Djahlat
I’d like if you’d bear with me in trying to analyze what happened with the Destroyer of Life (basing just on the wiki page and on that quote from the book that you wrote):

• “it was amorphous”
• “its body just solidified from the lava sea where it lived”

This particular champion of Primordus literally was an amorphous entity creeping through lava, and it would just assume a form when coming out of the lava sea.

• “Once woken, it could never be quenched”

This would mean that once out of the sea of lava it would encase itself in rocks to prevent the lava core from cooling down, or rather: it would encase a definite amount of lava with rocks, keeping the heat inside, surviving this way out of the lava sea.

• “It was this that made Eir realise its weakness”

It seems evident that this particular champion’s weakness was the need of attaching itself to actual lava in order to exist. When Eir realised that by destroying the outer shell (in some way) the lava inside would disperse, she stroke one of those white-hot arrows, burning with primordial fire, right through the outer rocky shell and into the core: the heat from the arrow, added to that of the lava core, was too much for the rocky shell to withstand, resulting in its explosion and in the dispersion of lava and its subsequent cooling down. Left with nothing to attach to, the amorphous entity was finally quenched.

So it definitely worked with this particular champion of Primordus, but it wouldn’t work with Primordus itself, given that it possesses the biggest share of fire magic (or primordial fire) as of now, hence why we need an opposing magical aspect that would actually weaken it.

In conclusion, primordial fire was just a circumstantial weakness with the Destroyer of Life, if the dragon champion would have run back into the sea of lava those arrows would have been of no use.

In addition to what I said earlier regarding Braham just “scratching” Jormag’s tooth with a single arrow: it definitely felt anticlimatic, but I think that completely obliterating the tooth would’ve been a disrespectful action in regards to Asgeir’s legend, while also destroying the only trophy of such a powerful foe. Also, the tooth had become a symbol of hope for the norn culture (at least for those living in and/or around Hoelbrak), which was recently transformed by Braham’s actions into a symbol of retaliation and overcoming.
But it still was a brave and unreasoning move for Braham to take, since he is the only one with an infused weapon after all (for now).

Djahlat.9610

So, my theory is that the scroll Braham used basically allowed to recreate Primordial Fire (it destroyed a champion of Primordus, so it can easily break through Jormag’s defense)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_of_Life

Just to better understand your view: do you also view primordial fire as an indipendent thing or do you intend that it must be associated to Primordus, inherently and necessarily coming from it?

Also, interesting knowledge about the Destroyer of Life, I missed that; I guess it comes from the books?

On a totally unrelated note, in that same wiki page, Primordus is referred to as a wyrm: imagining it as a vile fiery serpent slithering through Tyria’s depths is very appealing.

RyuDragnier.9476

I think the relationship between Kralky and DSD is that of Lightning and Water. If you notice, while there’s a chaos storm with Kralky’s stuff, it looks like it sparks similar to lightning. Plus the branded areas always look like they’re storming.

So with all the dragons, we have Zhaitan (Death), Mordremoth (Life), Primordus (Fire), Jormag (Ice), Kralky (Lightning), and DSD (Water), each split into respective pairs and cancelling each other out.

Lightning could be a good candidate indeed, given that one type of the magical crystals used by the zephyrites is made from the Aspect of Lightning (and it also appears purple in colour). But like the other Aspects, we refer to those magics with other names: fire magic would be the Aspect of Sun and air magic would be the Aspect of Wind.

In addition, the opposition isn’t really clear with Lightning and Water (supposing it actually would be water for Steve), or at least I can’t think of any as of now, meaning that one won’t weaken the other in this sense. So, lightning and crystals are just ways in which Kralkatorrik’s magic can and will present itself if present in high quantities.

In addition, primordial concepts seems to be associated to the natural magical aspects that flow through the ley lines:

• Death, used by Zhaitan
• Life, used by Mordremoth (even though technically it’s plant, it clearly has a connection to life)
• Heat, used by Primordus
• Cold, used by Jormag
• Chaos, used by Kralkatorrik
• Order, used by Steve

Displayed in this way, I think the oppositions are quite clear. By using one or a combination of them, the magical capabilites of magic-users are potentially endless when interacting with physical things.

But there are other “things” with magical properties: there’s the ley lines, the Mists and the Mind (which has connections to magic), but these aren’t part of those magical aspects flowing through the ley lines; ley lines themselves are a separate thing, they are the medium for magical aspects (what we refer to as, for example, fire magic) to flow all around the world; the Mists have magical properties but are a thing on their own, similarly to the Mind.

With the recent explanation of the Spirit of Fire, I think it’s clear that “fire magic” is a natural thing, unassociated to any being; like any other Spirit of the Wild, the Spirit of Fire spawned as a consequence of a natural thing, possibly generated by the Mists themselves as an archetype of that thing.
So, every entity can make use of fire magic: humans, charr, Kodan, the Spirit of Fire and even Primordus. So, it’s referred to as “Primordus’s energy” because the Dragon makes mainly use of it and not because it naturally generates from it; in addition its actual body was changed when imbued with immense amount of fire magic, rendering it exposed to a magical weakness, which for now I’d refer to as ice magic, or the magic which Jormag coincidentally uses.

We don’t really have any more knowledge about the scroll as of now I think, but given that it was made by the Jotun (supposedly), and that they once were a race of powerful spellcasters, this ancient magic was certainly understood better than today.

I think that just an arrow was struck by Braham to show the potentialities, but fire magic wouldn’t kill Jormag per se, it will just weaken it, exposing it to heavier damage, just exactly what happened with the Ice Beast when Braham cracked its Crystalline Armor and we were able to damage it for good.

DarcShriek.5829

With magic being as crazy as it is right now, why are we even considering killing any more dragons?

That’s a good question: I guess that for now they’re regarded as a bigger threat by tyrians (and also by the PC) than the high amounts of magic freely flowing through Tyria that could potentially, if not definitely, generate mahyem (to say the least).

@Konig Des Todes
Mordremoth’s “mind aspect” is interesting to be focused on: if it actually were a separate magical aspect, I guess Mordremoth would be able to affect every single mind, and not just those of plant beings and/or by “infecting” entities with plant materials. So I doubt “mind” is a magical aspect, one actually flowing through the ley lines, similarly to fire magic, but has more to do with the personality and the original nature of Mordremoth (and by the way, why Mordremoth has a link to the Dream is still an obscure knowledge, we don’t have a definite answer for that yet).

“Death opposed to plant” is tricky to grasp, but we have a clear example of it with the cleansing of Orr, where plant magic overthrew death magic.
Death magic will weaken plant magic and what comes from it if present in bigger quantities and/or used correctly, destroying “life”; in opposition, overgrowth (so a high quantity of plant magic) would “choke” death, if present in higher quantities.
Imagine a Risen (which, by the way, this term clearly stands for undead, as in “risen from death”, and we just use it in reference to the undead whom are under Zhaitan’s influence; so it can’t be used as a synonym of “undead” in this sense) getting surrounded by plant magic: it will get enveloped by overgrowth (plant magic, not just normal plants) and its death magic wouldn’t be enough to weaken the vines, there would be nothing he could do to free itself and it would slowly succumb to “life”.

Regarding the Dragon’s weaknesses:
Zhaitan wasn’t destroyed by exploiting its specific weakness after all, but by using a more general “weakness”: magic was poisoned (unfortunately I don’t think we got more details about this), rendered unabsorbable/unusable by the Dragon, and instead it was turned into a weapon.
So it would be easier to destroy each Dragon while knowing its weakness, but it seems it’s not a strictly necessary step; afterall, Braham’s new-found magic just destroyed the Crystalline Armor of the Ice Beast, whom wasn’t immune to damage, but destroying said “armor” was very helpful in defeating it.
Mordremoth was indeed weakened in its mind, a thing which (seemingly) highly impaired it, but it wasn’t ultimately defeated from that alone: what we did, in the end, was to deprive it of an actual body, a thing that high quantities of death magic would also be able to do if used correctly (which would have been its actual magical weakness).

Definitively, I treat as unclear just what can be treated as such, which is definitely not everything.


@Daniel Handler (link to the comment I’m referring to)
Misinterpratation may come from both sides, not just from one. The writing style is a personal thing, you don’t need to adopt mine in order to respond to me, that’s simply unreasonable. Not liking my “writing style” does not imply that you can’t discuss the points I proposed; in addition, nobody is forcing anyone to do so.
Also… 15,000 words? If anything 15,000 characters (formatting and punctuation included)…

To respond at your points:

Daniel Handler.4816

the water dragon may use healing magic, we don’t know. You presume the dragon domains contain all of the spectrum of magic. The amount of things not present in the other 5 dragons would require Bubbles to have way more than 2 domains.

Of course we ultimately don’t know, I just tried to share ideas in trying to make a clear picture (which wouldn’t necessarily result in the right one). Also, we really just know the “spheres” of two Elder Dragons for now.

Daniel Handler.4816

yes domains don’t all refer to magic, there is obviously no crystal magic.

Crystal isn’t a “domain” of Kralkatorrik as far as I know, it’s just listed as such by us on the wiki. Again, we really just know the spheres of Zhaitan and Mordremoth as of now.

Hopefully I didn’t misinterpret anything.

@Daniel Handler
You just provided yourself with a “humorous” tl;dr to “answer” me without providing any actual argumentation nor an in-depth personal view of the ideas I proposed because you ultimately don’t care. Just send me a private message next time or even ignore me, it’ll definitely be better (for everyone).
Also this is a forum, there’s no pressure in reading and/or discussing, there’s not a time limit… If you (generally speaking) don’t want to read or discuss just don’t.

It totally looks like you followed draxynnic into this thread, transfering an ongoing discussion from another thread into this, while simultaneously not providing anything to this actual thread’s topic in any way – but you don’t care, so why should you…

@Konig Des Todes
I often tried to underline that there are unclear statementes made in lore, not described in depth well enough to get a clear definite answer, and hence they are open to interpretation.
Too bad there was a miscommunication (but honestly, it was you to first mention the sylvari in relation to the other thread, not me).

Hopefully someone else will be interested in this actual thread.

Vyriis.6258

Pic for reference of one up close.

Nice catch, I totally forgot about those.

@Konig Des Todes

It wasn’t my intention to mix threads here, nor was this intended in any way to be a continuation of anything – don’t make this personal, because I wasn’t.

With Zhaitan and Mordremoth I was trying to stress the fact that the former actually needs bodies to spread corruption, it can’t generate neither flesh nor bone, while the latter isn’t contrained by bodies, and can instead inherently (given the magic used) generate bodies (the wolves’ minds for example will migrate to their new plant body, letting Mordremoth able to control them, and we don’t really know if Zhaitan magic plays a role in keeping the wolves “alive” in the process). Even though Mordremoth gets identified as the “Mind Dragon”, it can ultimately only control (corrupt) beings impacted by plant magic (the magic it makes use of), while the various Vines creations are actually animated by Mordremoth itself, making them in a way actual parts of its body (after Mordremoth’s death, those vines also “died”, while minions with their separate but corrupted minds kept going). So, an excess of death magic will annihilate any living thing (imagine a vine surrounded by loads of death magic, it will succumb), but, in opposition, an excess of plant magic will neutralize death (imagine limited death magic being surrounded by unstopplable plant growth: death can’t keep up), and it’s ultimately what happened with the cleansing of Orr. To better understand, let’s oppose fire magic and death magic: fire can be extinguished, but it’s not an organic thing, it can’t be killed; death magic won’t be affected by fire magic either, if anything it will actually help in killing things faster (certain things at least).

Too bad you keep stating your ideas on sylvari on other threads when I made a whole thread just for that. Just to briefly address you here, since you mentioned them, let’s analyze what Scott McGough said: “sylvari are a special case of Elder Dragon minion”, “A Mordrem Guard’s appearance is more due to Mordremoth’s ability to control and shape plant life — sylvari are plants, after all”, “Mordrem Guards [certain sylvari] were influenced by Mordremoth”, “the Pale Tree creates the sylvari [just their physical bodies]”, and as I said in the other thread, sylvari keep spawning even with Mordremoth being dead: it’s clear it wasn’t their actual creator, but they might strongly believe it because their kind of magic is shared. In addition, Mordremoth can’t generate individual species/races (like the infamous seeds), it can just grow plant materials and control plant materials: the Vine Tendrils and Crawlers were actually creations of Mordremoth, and as parts of its actual body (unlike dragon minions) they died with Mordremoth.

Regarding Kralkatorrik I think what you were trying to refer to were actually the lightning crystals, the Aspect of Lightning (the purple one); I don’t know anything about an Aspect of Sky, but sky crystals were used by the zephyrites to store knowledge (similar to asura’s crystals storing data).

Regarding the double spheres of the Dragons, I doubt every single one can be related to an actual magical aspect; let’s consider the human gods too (and I’m not trying to make any link between them and the Dragons here, if anything they might share the basic natural magical aspects): every single entity has a personal identity, when they absorb high magical powers it will be reflected in their actions: Balthazar is identified with War, an aspect derived by his personality and his personal actions (it’s said that he actually walked in Tyria with the actual head of his father in his hand, implying he could have absorbed the powers from him), things that naturally brought him to choose fire magic; I doubt there’s something like “war magic”. Similarly, the Elder Dragons as we know them came to be from simple entities: each Dragon was originally driven to the magical aspect which best suited their environment and/or their personalities (for example, the DSD was a species of dragon living underwater and Primordus was a species of dragon living near fiery environments); I’m starting to doubt there’s actually “shadow magic” or “mind magic” (Mordremoth is able, after all, to affect the mind of just plant material; just like any other Elder Dragon would do with their respective magical “sphere”).

Guardians, among the properties of monks, share properties with ritualists, who originally used something other than proper magic as we know it, an ancient technique which actually channel spirits from the Mists (probably a power similar to and/or shared with that of the Envoys probably). So, if anything, for now we haven’t witnessed the “healing” aspect of magic (restoration magic) in any dragon yet, and Steve would be a good candidate (and I agree in saying that he isn’t altruistic; “order” does not imply “good” afterall).

Also, regarding the “Divine Fire”, I view it as an agglomeration of all magical aspects of the gods (it appears white afterall), since the human gods are, unlike the Elder Dragons, a united group, they tend to work together as a whole (so the human gods are beings who are in great harmony with magic, and possess great abilities in controlling it). Also, back in GW1, monks had a direct conduit to all the human gods, not just one (divine favor), they made use of what I believe to be their combined magical powers.

Regarding Kralkatorrik and Steve, while the “sky and oceanic-deeps dichotomy” would be indeed nice, it has problems, as you said. Given that you embrace the view of Kralkatorrik using “chaos” and Steve using “order”, what do you think of the idea that Steve could use some kind of restoration and/or healing magic (which is associated to water magic to some extent afterall)?

In addition, I agree on Primordus and Jormag not using Fire and Ice per se, that’s just the names with which we refer to those magical aspects. For example, Jormag seems to make use of air magic to some extent: the natural Spirit related to its magic could be the Spirit of Cold (or something along those lines). Luckily I explained myself clearly.

@draxynnic

The catastrophe would occur if one type is present in quantities considerably different than the other: the icebrood unstable abomination (encountered in “The Bitter Cold” story step) is actually imbued with both plant and death magic but it’s still standing, “unexploded”, meaning the magics are in equilibrium; sudden bursts of one or another would damage the host, breaking the equilibrium. Theoretically then, one being alone could be able to absorb every single aspect of magic if strong and willing enough, as long as they are maintained in equilibrium and as long as the host maintains its physical form uncorrupted by any kind of magic (unlike the Elder Dragons did, who got corrupted physically and are slaves of themselves, meaning they are now dependent to magic).

The explanation to why Braham’s enchanted arrow was able to crack Jormag’s tooth while typical elementalist’s fire magic couldn’t (or wouldn’t) is not a case of lore inconsistency: the scroll infused Eir’s bow with pure fire magic; it’s like as if elementalists use fire magic “merely” to generate and control actual physical flames, but Eir’s bow is permeated with pure fire magic. After all, the origin of the scroll has to be accounted to the Jotun (supposedly), whom once were a race of powerful spellcasters (and hence had magical knowledge superior to modern scholars).

And regarding the elementalists, I’ll put forward an idea (even though a whole thread could be opened on this): they don’t actually use magical natural elements (as to say fire magic, air magic etc.), but just arcane magic: they “simply” manipulate the natural elemental forces (such as physical water, physical flames etc); they’re after all stated to “channel [by attuning] elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding”. Also, there’s no mention of magic in the attunements’ description (also early concepts, if I recall correctly, had us stand in actual water pools to use water related spells, and they actually are intended to carry “gems” of their favourite element, which they’d wear). So, they’d use this so called arcane magic to “simply” manipulate, for example, actual physical flames, and control those, unlike the infused Eir’s bow, which uses actual pure fire magic. To further validate this, consider elementals: high concentrations of magic are stated to make them spawn; minds will spawn which, depending on the environment, will make use of the materials around them to form their physical body: not only we witness fire, air, water and earth elementals, but also lava, tar and even bloodstone ones to name a few (and Anomalies are supposed to be made of pure magic); I doubt there’s tar magic. With this however I’m not implying there’s no such things as the natural fire magic, water magic and/or air magic (but earth magic is suspicious), and elementalists might use those in some extents. But I’m digressing, this part was a whole big parenthesis.

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