Amaimon

There’s a collection for chests, one of the chests is in a deep section of the cave. The marker for the chest is called:
9. Firestone Reserves
and it’s a cave corner wich is rich of this mineral. Its not 100% sure, but I’m willing to say that’s enough evidence to support the ‘its firestone’-theory

I guess you’re referring to my statement regarding those stones being crystallized fire magic, but it would be nice if you actually isolated the part you’re actually quoting and referring to instead of the whole thing (I’m sincerely just saying).
Anyway, “firestones” is obviously how we refer to those stones in-game but we aren’t really told what they actually are, and the term itself points to it being a “stone of fire”, hence why I said it could totally be crystallized fire magic, which by the way was a big focus point of this episode.

From the most recent living world episode (EP3) we have confirmation that the different magics used by the Elder Dragons balance out one by one, and we’re also presented with the couples: Primordus (Fire) and Jormag (Ice) is pretty self-explanatory; Zhaitan (Death) and Mordremoth (Plant) could be a bit tricky to understand at first, but if we think that Zhaitan kills bodies to spread its influence while Mordremoth generates bodies to spread its influence, it’s easier to see; this would leave Kralkatorrik and Steve (the Deep-Sea Dragon) as the last couple.

When concerning Kralkatorrik, what we know is that it is referred to as the “Elder Crystal Dragon” and that its representative colour is purple (however, it could possibly have something to do with chaos magic); by opposition, we can then try to deduce the behaviour and the type of magic used by the Elder Deep-Sea Dragon.

If we assume their magic to be Crystal (for Kralkatorrik) and Water (for Steve) then the explanation could be that: too many crystals can form in and/or through water (water is often necessary for the formation of crystals), filling it up, while consequently too much water can flood crystals and dissolve them, undo them.

However, if we assume that Kralkatorrik uses chaos magic, viewed as some kind of disorganization, could Steve then use some kind of “order” magic (and water could cover this role, it being the element from which life formed; meaning it was essential to make order), organizing and forming tentacles out of water (“tentacles from water” is one of the only known things about Steve)? Meaning that Kralkatorrik would disorganize things with a form, while, in opposition, Steve would organize things without a form.

A final note on Kralkatorrik: it is often thought that it uses “crystal magic” (or something along those lines), but I doubt it actually is a thing, main reason being Jormag’s ice, which is a crystal in itself. So “crystal” could be the behavioural part of Kralkatorrik’s corruption, one of the ways its corruption gets displayed.

Amaimon.7823

Slighty bigger than usual Lupicus if you ask me.

Let’s see:

1. There are at least two known species of Giganticus Lupicus (we know from GW1 times), and their mature size is not really known; size could also change from one species to another.
2. The only real and alive (well, technically it was an undead, but still… it was fleshy) representation of a True Giant was said to have been scaled down for gameplay reasons (like what happened with Zhaitan).
3. In that pic you linked there’s no frame of reference, so it’s hard to tell their actual size. Also that pic is from GW1, designs can change when porting to GW2.
4. The skull actually resembles that of a canidae (again, similar to the undead Lupicus found in Arah).

Just saying…

Valmir.4590

Per chance, would you remember where Griffon as a Spirit was mentioned ?

It’s stated on the wiki (link), but I really can’t recall the origin of said knowledge and if it’s in or out of game (but I guess it’s in-game somewhere).

Also, the descriptions you made of Bristleback and Smokescale are really fitting.

I’m pretty sure those are remains of a Giganticus Lupicus (of one or more), though it’s not confirmed I believe.

First off, while it’s quite certain that unknown Spirits of the Wild might exist, we don’t know exactly what a Spirit of the Wild really is or how they come to be, so I don’t think it’s safe to say every creature has a correspondant Spirit (just saying for clarity).

Regardless, to answer your question: I’d say that Tiger would be a good canditate, perhaps even Wyvern. As for the characteristics associated to them, I’m honestly clueless about the various saurians you proposed, but the idea of a Karka spirit is interesting: it could symbolize tempering, resistance and/or adaptability. The Tiger could symbolize confidence, courage, might and/or anger, while the Wyvern could symbolize pride, freedom and/or victory.

In addition, the Griffon is known to be a minor Spirit of the Wild.

Regarding Ameyalli, I believe it’s reasonable to think it could be a spirit of some sort, similar to the Spirit of Fire as presented by Kodan; perhaps it’s the Spirit of Nature.

The thing is that there’s no proof of the opposite either, other than the belief that Mordremoth is the sylvari’s true creator (whatever this vague statement means); this is one of the main points I was trying to stress all along.

Anyway, I can think about a couple of proofs:

• Sylvari need to eat and drink properly, while dragon minions do not: they get sustain from magic (or at least the most powerful minions do).

• Sylvari first spawned on Tyria roughly 25 years ago, there’s no mention of them earlier in history. In addition, their creation can be linked if anything to the Trees.

A common proof (or should I say justification) of the opposite would be that all the seeds were purified from dragon corruption priorly to Ronan taking one: that’s nowhere to be found in lore.

Quoting Jeff Grub: “The Mists are the building blocks of reality, the proto-reality that exists between the worlds. It is where we find afterlifes and the homes of the various gods and other powerful entities. The Mists also resonate from the worlds around them, such that they form bits of their own reality — islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.”
The creations of the Mists (the Realms and whatnot) appear then to exist on a separate plane of existence than that of Tyria’s universe (that’s my view at least).

Also, demons spawning from the Mists are determined to enter the “flesh world” (Tyria), implying Tyria (and its universe) is actually physical (with the addition of magical elements of course).

@Amaimon Never said Mordrem couldn’t keep spawning somehow, that was your own conclusion since you view sylvari as Mordrem, not me. But honestly, while we know Mordrem and Risen kept roaming around after their respective master died, we really don’t know if they can keep spawning as such, and I think that if new minions would spawn they’d respond to a new entity. Also, last time I checked we killed every major Mordremoth’s champion.

Again, Mordrem guard are corrupted sylvari, it’s pretty obvious when you think about it: sylvari turning is the only known case of Mordrem guards.

Mordrem guarding those seeds does not imply that they (both the seeds and sylvari) come from Mordremoth (whatever that would mean).

The Dream (but also the Nightmare) appears to behave as an higher entity, comparable to Mordremoth in a way. In my view the Dream of Dreams is a realm of the Mists, the Dream and the Nightmare are entities trying to rule over said realm, like Mordremoth also was and/or tried to (if you’re interested, here is a link to a thread I made regarding exactly this).

Lankmaster.6507

[…] Otherwise, any theories?

Like most have already said, it’s obviously not a bloodstone fragment (one of the reason being the difference in colour).

Personally, I think that’s an example of crystallized fire magic, given the focus around said magic in this region: Kodan, Braham and supposedly the Jotun (who once lived there), who are believed to be the origin of the scroll used by Braham.

Valmir.4590

I can’t even get explanations for why they worship Jora…

Grawls are a very impressionable and simple-minded race, they tend to worship anything that they associate with power (with the case of Jora’s statue, or should I say Chokocooka, they might think of her as the origin of said stones).

Amaimon.7823

Mordrem: Any creature that is born from the ilk of Mordremoth and has their mind connected to Mordremoth. There are two types of mordrem, born of his ilk, and corrupted by his ilk. Born from his ilk are the average Mordrem AND Sylvari, as sylvari are just a reskin of normal mordrem. Corrupted ilk are all plantoid matter that mordremoth corrupted.

I’ll assume those descriptions of dragon minions are of your own, since you didn’t link any source nor have alluded to any.
I’ll just focus on the sylvari, giving you a question: why do we see sylvari still spawning after Mordremoth’s demise then? The only answer is that they never came from Mordremoth to begin with; they were exploited by Mordremoth (together with the Trees), whose intent was to corrupt them.

And if anything it’s the Mordrem (guard) that are a reskin of sylvari, since it’s the sylvari that get covered in thick bark and grow in size, and never the other way around, so it’s quite the opposite.
Sylvari are not dragon corruption (nor dragon minions), Mordrem are.

In addition, both Mordremoth and sylvari are linked to the Dream (and Mordremoth is not the Dream): that’s where to find their mental link, and how Mordremoth was able to communicate with them priorly to corrupting them.

P.S. What do you exactly mean with “ilk”? Could you use a word other than that, to let me better understand your view?

I made quite a few points actually, if you chose not to consider them as such it’s up to you.

In the the most recent episode of the living world (EP3) Caithe states, paraphrasing: “Mordremoth is their true creator”; however this should be interpreted, would this imply that no new sylvari can be born after Mordremoth’s departure? I doubt that’s the case. If Mordremoth is dead, and new sylvari are being born, was it truly their creator?
Sylvari are not dragon minions, if anything they were created to be dragon minions (that’s what the quote says); Mordrem are dragon minions.

Sylvari don’t come from Mordremoth; how sylvari come to existance has nothing to do with Mordremoth (while how Mordrem come to be has to do with Mordremoth). The Trees’ seeds may come from Mordremoth, but I doubt that’s also the case.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Honestly, not being able to see a Margonite would not stop people from making an association so long as they had a reliable (to them) description.

As far as we know, margonites stopped interacting with the “flesh world” long ago, before the elder dragons even started to awaken; why would tyrians need or want to connect those to “dragon corruption” when they know they were a result of Abaddon’s corruption?

Konig Des Todes.2086

Ehhhhh….

Burn, buuurn!

You sure about that?

I’m pretty sure of what I’m saying, that’s just a Molten dredge being an hateful dredge (he laughs too).
Not sure if you’re implying something here; are you even being serious?

Back in GW1, the Flame Legion treated the Titans as their newfound gods. Once the Titans were annihilated, the Destroyers took their place as godlike figures (and not Primordus) but they [the Destroyers] ultimately kill everyone, even Flame Legion representatives.

In GW2, their god figure is instead one of their own kind: Gaheron Baelfire.
It’s clear Flame shamans (and it follows Molten shamans too) are not a case of “dragon corruption”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

It makes clear usage of the ley lines after Scarlet moved the machine there.

The Existence of ley lines has long been theorized, and they have had many names. In 1316, a sylvari named Ceara (alias Scarlet Briar) found proof.

Do your research, please.

Ley lines weren’t confirmed until Ceara – as Scarlet Briar – figured it out (I’m fairly certain 1316 is a typo for 1326, given that in 1316 Scarlet would have been with the charr gladium at the time).

I can’t really tell from that link where it should state that Scarlet moved Omadd’s machine. I really think Omadd was aided by Scarlet in perfectioning his machine (before the asura was killed obviously), given the interest in Scarlet to learn about the Eternal Alchemy.

Also, 1326 would be a terribly wrong date for the discovery of ley lines, since Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine in 1320 (or if we suppose she re-entered the machine on her own, she did so roughly a year later, in 1321) so I highly doubt that’s a typo. Omadd’s machine (as we’re presented to it in Dry Top – also it’s called “Omadd’s machine”, not “Scarlet’s machine” nor “Omadd’s revisited machine”) is honestly designed to channel and make use of the ley lines. Also, in 1324, Scarlet already knew quite well about the ley lines and had dealt with them already, before experimenting in Thaumanova.

In addition, the Cavern of the Shining Light is a revered place for the centaurs living around there (if I recall correctly); while not explicitly stated by the centaurs to be ley lines, the knowledge of those lights flowing underground might have reached Ceara (while being in Town of Prosperity or elsewhere), and might have rang a bell in her mind (given the theories about the ley lines which she most certainly already knew about).

Konig Des Todes.2086

The only thing she’s stated to have shared is claiming all the chaos magic was draconic energies.

She does not say “chaos energy” is “dragon energy”: she says the Inquest misunderstood what they were dealing with, it’s pretty different.
Also, I wasn’t referring to her final speech in the fractal, but to the things shared with the Inquest representatives collaborating with her before going to Thaumanova:

Inquest Operative (1): Chaos magic? That’s not what the special consultant says. You don’t have any idea what’s really going on here, do you?

Which implies something more than “it’s not chaos magic” was shared with some Inquest members by Scarlet.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which counters what’s brought up later, and does not involve the discovery of ley lines.

Scarlet obviously already discovered the ley lines priorly to the Thaumanova events, as I’ve addressed before.

Konig Des Todes.2086

It was actually Ellen Kiel who spread the knowledge of ley lines. […] Kiel wouldn’t be saying it’d be a significant breakthrough if ley lines were known prior to the end of 1326 AE.

I don’t really understand, would that be suprising? Nor Scarlet nor Inquest members would share their knowledge with their enemies.

In addition, I have the impression you keep assuming that 1316 was a typo because it doesn’t make sense to you.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The term “dragon magic” and “draconic energies” is only and always used in reference to the corrupting magic, the stuff that creates dragon minions. Without. Exception.

As I said earlier: “tyrians have seen and have associated this behaviour [dragon corruption] just in regards to the Elder Dragons; there’s no reason not to refer to it as ‘dragon magic’ for tyrians”.
And from the most recent living world episode (EP3) I think it’s pretty clear that the magic used by the Dragons is not really their own magic.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

If that was the case, they [the holograms] would not be capable of damaging things.

Light interacts with matter, it can push matter and it can “damage” matter. Also, consider what a laser (light) is able to do. Scarlet’s holograms are referred to as light constructs, along other things they make use of laser attacks; the magical aspect deals with shaping and constraining light and might be linked to eventual magical spells used by said holograms.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Then you’d call every necromancer evil.

That would happen (and it does happen amongst tyrians if I recall correctly) just if you approach necromancers with the prejudice that dealing with death is an evil/bad thing.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Thing is that we see purple with every Elder Dragons’ corruption to small degrees (sans Primordus). So whether the comment was originally a joke, it has been kept around and remains evident. That said, I think the idea is “all evil has purple hues, but not all purple is evil”.

I’ll repropose this statement of mine, which you quoted: “in my view, dark energy (which I associated with purple) is related to evil/bad”, in addition to this, in my view dark energy is related to the Dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086

How is this at all different?

“Elder Dragons use the same magic everyone else uses”

“Dragon magic (Defined as the magic Elder Dragons use) is the same magic we use”

The focus on a word can make the difference. The focus is not “dragon” but “magic”: that’s why I switched the words: we don’t use “dragon magic”, we all use the same “magic” (even the Elder Dragons).
There’s no reason to refer to “magic” as “dragon magic”, since the latter is not a thing; there is nothing that’s exclusive to the Dragons’ nature; anyone powerful enough could absorb their “spheres”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Even if a fractal is an exact duplicate, the events change the moment the PCs enter the fractal.

Ree Soesbee stated something very clear actually there: "[…] you can go back in your own minds and sort of write someone into a memory where they weren’t there and what would have happened “if this person went to the movies with us.” And the fractals are very simpler, the Mists are very simpler". The movie (the end result) won’t change, its interpretation may change.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Explosions can happen for multiple reasons, you know.

Indeed, and one of these reasons being when Anomalies absorb too much magical energies.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You know… Mesmers’ magic?

Kind of why they have a trait line that says “Chaos Magic”

I’m not implying anywhere that “chaos magic” is not a thing.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You’re now contradicting yourself. Earlier you said they pulled magic from the ley lines to duplicate dragon corruption.

Now you’re saying they didn’t draw from ley lines.

It cannot be both.

No contradiction here: ley lines are a very separate magical “thing” compared to the magical aspects that flow through them, those that magic-users utilize; it’s important to separate the two. There are “empty” ley lines, in which no magical aspect runs through them. “Pulling magic from the ley lines” doesn’t necesseraly mean pulling the ley lines themselves, that’s what I was intending.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Either Scarlet was lying, or Ellen Kiel, Marjory Delaqua, and two Inquest members were lying. They couldn’t all be telling the truth.

Or perhaps nobody was lying. If you think you are interacting with something (the Inquest thought it was “chaos magic”) even if in reality it’s not what you think it to be, you aren’t really lying: you are wrong.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I never said Scarlet lied about Thaumanova being over ley lines – we know this is true per the Season 1 finale cinematic.

Exactly, we know that is true; and not just over ley lines, but over an intersection of ley lines (a ley line hub). Is it then that far off to think the Inquest was unknowingly tapping from the ley lines? On a side note, the waypoint system itself exploits the ley lines after all.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I never said anything about Scarlet implying dragon energies running through ley lines – however, I will say now that nothing in her dialogue implies this.

But of course that’s implied in her speech: she keeps talking about ley lines, ley lines’ intersections and “dragon energy” in the same context. In Scarlet’s view (which, I think, is the correct view) these infamous “dragon energies” could very well be the ley lines themselves, intended as the source of energy that helps sustain the Elder Dragons (we know afterall that’s what Scarlet used: the ley lines, and not “dragon energies” nor “dragon magics”, because, again, these aren’t even proper “dragon” things).

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

There is no mental corruption, just the removal of free will and creation of a mental link (hive mind). Unless this is what you’re referring to with “mental corruption” in which case you’re using a confusing misnomer.

“The mind is corrupted” has to be intended as “the mind is compromised”, the mind gets changed, poisoned by the Dragons. The hive mind view is kinda confusing in my opinion, since it is confirmed only when regarding the Destroyers in relation to the Great Destroyer, and they are very particular creations comparable to constructs; if anything the Dragon has access to the mind of those corrupted, it has access to the past and future experiences (knowledges) of those corrupted and is able to communicate with and/or through those corrupted (or at least with the most powerful minions). In the most recent living world episode (EP3) we can witness a high rank corrupted Svanir (possessing high quantities of magic and retaining most his mind capabilities) giving direct orders to his weaker (and it follows lower in rank) corrupted Brothers; so, while this high rank Svanir’s will is forever lost to that of the Dragon, he’s still an individual mind (like every minion really).

Konig Des Todes.2086

I think I just stated the exact reason to believe that it is proven otherwise. Captain Grumby was killed atop of a bloodstone, yet he is not crazed like those killed atop of the Maguuma Bloodstone.

Captain Grumby is quite different from the typical Chosen, and not because of the bloodstone on which he happened to be sacrificed: the Chosen didn’t know what they were going through: they’re scared, deranged, disoriented about their condition, they refuse to face reality (they had trust and believed in the White Mantle and they were ultimately betrayed); the Chosen are blinded by their inner struggle and don’t seem to recall who did this to them, accusing every living being they come in contact with instead. In the event Defeat the spirit of Justiciar Hablion however, we are able to heal the deranged spirits and make them face reality, finally opening their eyes to what really happened: it was the White Mantle to do this to them.

When a ghost is defeated

Angered Spirit (Female): You murdered us all!
Angered Spirit (Male): I remember now. The White Mantle are our enemies. So many broken promises! You betrayed us! Hablion!
Deranged Spirit (Female): Death to the oppressors!!
Deranged Spirit (Male): They must pay for their treachery!
Enraged Spirit (Female): It was you, Hablion! You imprisoned us! You…killed us!
Enraged Spirit (Male): Hablion!

On the other hand, Captain Grumby knows he was sacrificed to the mursaat by the White Mantle, he knows who did this to him and how he ended there, he wasn’t tricked by the Mantle’s lies. Why however… why the bloodstones have this effect over the souls imprisoned in them (once the Door of Komalie was broken, each spirit went back into its respective bloodstone) is the real question, and we do not know (and I doubt even Grumby knows why he’s stuck there, in the vicinity of a bloodstone).

Konig Des Todes.2086

And we know that Bloodstones were designed […] The Seers created the Bloodstone via the Shadowstone.

Of course the original Bloodstone was designed by the Seers, we know that. I was arguing about the crystalline formations… Based on its icon, the Shadowstone is a metallic magical container and it seems to work together with crystals to channel magic inside and store it for future use (and now that I think about it, the ancient Seer artifact stolen from the Durmand Priory by the White Mantle was probably a Shadowstone). The Shadowstone is loosely a (portable) precursor of the Bloodstone: the main difference however is that the magic channeled inside a Shadowstone was tappable at will, while the Bloodstone was strictly designed as a container: an outer shell containing magic, aided in channeling magic by the crystalline formations; magic could just be taken from the Bloodstone via the use of separate artifacts.

So the Bloodstone as a whole is composed by an outer shell (a containment border) and by those blood-red crystalline formations.

The crystal does not equal a Bloodstone. In your view – I think you view the red crystals as the Bloodstone – it would be impossible for the Shadowstone to even exist priorly to the Bloodstone, since it’s implied it uses those very same crystals to function; do you see the paradox?

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

The problem here is that you’re proclaiming all Elder Dragons are the same in their desire to corrupt, but we’re explicitly told that isn’t the case.

Prime example being Jormag: while he does corrupt, he has a preference to only corrupt those who willingly ask for power.

To repeat what I said in another thread, Jormag gets mistakenly treated by some norn, mainly (if not solely) by the Sons of Svanir, as a Spirit of the Wild (it isn’t); the various uncorrupted norn following the Ice Dragon hope to gain powers from it in the same way a norn draws power from the Spirit of the Bear (on a side note, the grawls are just fascinated in the powers displayed by the Claw); when presented with what Jormag really does, uncorrupted Sons of Svanir may flee. How (and if) Jormag “whispers” to those yet to be corrupted is unclear (even though we have an example with the Frost Portal hero point in Drakkar Spurs), but in the end we know that Jormag enslaves those corrupted like any other Dragon does: the end result is the same for any Elder Dragon, anyone corrupted will fall to the Dragon’s will; the only difference is the kind of magic used by each Dragon (fire, ice, plant, etc…).

Konig Des Todes.2086

All Snaff’s research excerpt really states is that you control magic with your thoughts… which is true. It says nothing about overriding one’s free will, whether by magic user or by magic addiction.

That particular Snaff’s research actually alludes to that, quoting: “manipulating magical elements with the mind”; I argued that’s what the Elder Dragons do: they are able to control subjects imbued with their respective kind of magic, compromising their mind in the process.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which contradicts every stated fact that we know about draconic energy/dragon magic.

And the fact that you will never, ever hear the term “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” without direct relation to the Elder Dragons.

You talk about stated facts… The only stated fact is that Elder Dragons get sustain from eating magic (as proven by Gorr’s research).
We do not have a clear definition of “dragon magic”: would you be able to express your personal view? Because, as of now, I have the feeling you interpret “dragon magics” as separate aspects from the natural ones: for example there’s ice magic but, in your view, Jormag uses something different and it would originate from the Dragon itself somehow: nothing states this. Again, the only fact is that Elder Dragons are dependent to magic. The Elder Dragons are simply magic-users (very powerful ones) and as such make use of magic like anyone else could potentially do; no magical particles originally exist because of them.

Regarding the second part of the quote: that’s pretty obvious, really: there’s no such thing as “dragon magic” to begin with.
Tyrians have seen and have associated this behaviour just in regards to the Elder Dragons; there’s no reason not to refer to it as “dragon magic” for tyrians.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given the history of humanity, it seems very evident that Snaff was simply wrong. […] Worlds can exist without magic. History of humanity, where they come from a magicless world, proves this.

The early history of humanity is still shrouded in mistery. It is said the human gods (or four of them in principle: Dwayna, Balthazar, Lyssa and Melandru; not sure if Abaddon was left out because of him getting eradicated from the history books and if Dhumm can be considered a human god, priorly to Grenth’s ascension) first entered the world of Tyria around the orrian region, specifically close to the artesian well, and that they brought humans with them. But we also know the first historical documentation of humans come from Cantha, and it’s suggested that early humans come from even souther than Cantha; so there is no clear human history (or origin at least) as of now, and even less about their (supposed) world of origin, of which we know nothing.
However, if the human gods are to be intended as very powerful humans who ascended into “godhood” (comparable to dragons becoming “Elder Dragons” on planet Tyria), it’s hard to believe that the alien world from which supposedly the humans, and the human gods, come from was magicless. Where minds are, magic also is and (quite possibly) vice versa, magic can’t be taken out of the equation, ever.

—CONTINUES—

BlaqueFyre.5678

How do you even know The Mordrem Guard are Corrupted? Sylvari go physiological changes under a psychological Stressors as shown quite a few times in game, Mordremoth calling to them and influencing their thoughts is a psychological stressor which would account for the change in appearance and not a corruption.

Such a heavy change in appearance, thick bark and size growth, is nowhere else to be seen, and it isn’t dictated by the sylvari (willingly or not) but it’s Mordremoth corruption. Mordrem guards are completely subjugated to Mordremoth and totally act like dragon minions (with mordrem however I was referring to any kind of mordrem).

We’re starting to repeat stuff that was already addressed earlier in this thread.

BlaqueFyre.5678

We do know solely from a. Dev stating Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. You can’t refute the meaning of Created

…I already stated, in responding to you to, that I was resolving the whole sentence: “created to be dragon minions”, and I was stressing that it’s not specified how they were created; we don’t know the creation process… or do we? Sylvari spawn in the Dream (the Dream isn’t Mordremoth) and are born in the flesh world (Tyria) through the Trees. Again, if anything we don’t know how those seeds came to be, and being that we don’t know, it’s anyone’s guess as of now.

Again Wynne herself states: “we were meant to serve it”.
Sylvari aren’t dragon corruption, mordrem are.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Again created to be Dragon Minions means their origin was to be Dragon Minions since they were not just corrupted to be Dragon but Created as in their whole existence was to be a Dragon Minion, this would mean Mordremoth brought the Sylvari into existence otherwise they would have just been Corrupted into Dragon Minions. You are just stuck on your own opinion/bias trying to refute what in game lore and what Devs have stated.

Ultimately, that’s your opinion.
With the entirity of this thread I’m trying to stress the fact that we don’t really have clear answers, hence my approach is as viable as any other.

Jaken.6801

True, but there are kits for engineer and items to pick up that change player behaviour.
Since we don`t see him from behind (?), it could just be for atmosphere.

On the other hand, why focus on someone like that? It is too secific, for a generic PC representation.

Maybe a new mastery, allowing firesticks aka rifle flamethrowers o combat ice enemies?

Nothing can really get excluded for now, but I personally doubt it’s a mastery; if anything it could be an environmental weapon (maybe linked to a heart).

However, that character is presented just in that place in the trailer, always shown in the presence of those singular crystal formations.

Black Iris Flowers.3418

Does Aurene have a father? […] We all assume Aurene will be like her mother Glint, but if she indeed has a father he could greatly influence her powers and abilities.

Supposedly, the fact that Glint was corrupted by Kralkatorrik is a concept subsequent to the original Guild Wars; when observing Glint’s eggs in her lair it’s hard to make it fit into this scenario: were those eggs laid before she got corrupted or were those eggs laid once she got corrupted? Did Glint had her own lair, a hiding place situated inside a single grain of sand, priorly to being corrupted by Kralkatorrik?

We see that Aurene displays crystalline formations growing from her body: are those an inheritance from her mother’s corruption or are those a sign of something else?

I personally think dragons have genders, but when one gets corrupted and transformed physically by magic (Elder Dragons or anyone else) gender kind of loses its meaning, since they can’t sexually reproduce anymore.

Interesting note: early concepts envisioned Mordremoth as a female.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Again you are going against things stated in game and by Devs.
Dragon Minions can be created and Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. The term created refers to origin otherwise they would have used a different word or phrase as to why Mordremoth went after them you can’t dispute the Dev saying they were Created to be Dragon Minions, just like you can’t dispute the definition of created….

I’m analyzing the whole sentence: “created to be dragon minions”. Like I said in another thread, elementalists summoning elementals can be considered a form of corruption: in this way, elementals are created (or animated) to be servants, but they have a mind of their own nonetheless; they are separate entities to begin with. This would be equal, on a much larger scale, to how Primordus animate those specific destroyers from lava.

When regarding Mordremoth, it’s not clear if sylvari come directly from him: sylvari spawn from those Trees afterall and it’s also unclear if the seeds, the origin of said Trees, come from Mordremoth.

Sock.2785

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Uhmm….. Destroyers are created not corrupted………..

I addressed this in another thread: when created from the lava, destroyers seems to be either elementals or constructs, hence they should have a mind associated to them, or a mind of their own (as weak as it would be); again, they’d be “created to be dragon minions”.

EDIT: I edited this sentence: “hence they should have a mind associated to them”, I forgot a word.

Jaken.6801

Red Crytals (bloodstone?) sourounding a statue of Jora.

Those crystal formations appear orange; unless the lighting is affecting their visuals (switching their colour from red to orange) it shouldn’t be a bloodstone.

It’s also worth noting that the human character we see in the trailer wielding Sabetha’s rifle (skin) actually uses it as a flamethrower, like Karde or Sabetha herself would do, and not like a rifle, like a PC would do; it’s plausible then that character is an NPC, probably a bandit. Perhaps those crystals have something to do with this character.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You are making the assumption that a ley line runs under the Infinite Coil Reactor! You make the assumption that they knew what ley lines were.

While it is an assumption (and I have no problems in saying so), I believe it is logical and reasonable (and since we don’t really know, the opposite of what I say would also be an assumption). When building the Thaumanova Reactor on an intersection of ley lines, they started drawing magic indistinguishbly, generating chaotic results. With the Infinite Coil Reactor (successor to Thaumanova’s) they didn’t make the same mistake: they differentiated between the magics drawn and very possibly isolated the ley lines themselves (not drawing them), avoiding chaotic results. Kudu however might still have thought those magics were of the Dragons; we know they aren’t.
You base your claims on the assumption that Scarlet is lying: Scarlet says that the Thaumanova Reactor was built on an intersection of ley lines: you assume she’s lying; Scarlet implies that “dragon energies” flow through ley lines: you assume she’s lying; Scarlet told the Inquest they mistook chaos energy for dragon energy: you assume she’s lying. Still she succededly identified and traced ley lines and had understandings of light and dark energies; she knew what she was talking about.
Also, you say nobody ever saw the ley lines when Omadd’s machine makes clear usage of the ley lines.
We know from the fractal that Scarlet shared her knowledge with several Inquest exponents, priorly to the explosion; you make the mistake of assuming nobody else can know about the ley lines (we not knowing does not imply that nobody else in Tyria knows about the ley lines).

Konig Des Todes.2086

And how can you properly experiment with the dragon energies if you’re not pulling them from the source?

Quoting from the wiki: “They intend to siphon the power of the dragon minions to create their own draconic servants”. I bet this assertion is older than our own knowledge about the ley lines; it is nothing more than an assumption, simply because it is unjustifiable (unless I wasn’t able to find any proof).
You seem to agree with the wiki here, to quote you: “[dragon minions] have their energies pulled from so they can be concentrated and put into the subjects…”; you assume they draw magical energies from the captured dragon minions.
You also keep assuming these “dragon energies” generate from the dragons (because the physical alteration is unique to them): just because a water spring may generate loads of rivers and lakes, it’s not implied that all the water we see in the world comes from said spring (Zhaitan spreading death magic doesn’t imply that death magic generates from him).

Konig Des Todes.2086

And they did capture mordrem, technically – just “purified mordrem” in a way.

Those that you refer to as “purified mordrem” are honestly a demonstration of plant magic; they’re connectable to mordrem just because the latters are also made from plant magic.

Regarding the margonites: what I meant was that tyrians in general aren’t able to physically compare a margonite to a dragon minion, since they don’t have access to the former anymore. Still, we know margonites were different, because they weren’t constrained in the mind, and could still choose to abandon Abaddon’s cause if they wanted to.
Regarding the Flame Legion shamans: while they make a heavy use of fire magic, which causes an alteration in their bodies similarly to “physical corruption”, everyone still behaves as an individual; there’s no reason for tyrians to link “dragon corruption” to them. Also, Flame Legion shamans strictly focused on fire magic following a natural specialization process; I really doubt they fiddled around with the ley lines.

Regarding the holograms (and light and dark energies): if anything, when Elli says: “magical construction of light emitted by this device on my belt”, it shows that magitech is used to bend and shape light. While they’re powered by magic, it seems holograms are made of light.
Also, thanks for pointing out the original mention of dark and light energy, it totally slipped from me; this knowledge shows that dark energy and light energy, as intended in GW2, are totally unconnected to what you argue them to be (I wasn’t able to find any mention of light magic and dark magic; all I could find is that necromancers make use of “black magic”. Also, when referring to magic, the term “light” is mostly connected to spells linked to Dwayna, the goddess of air and life. Regarding the GW1 damage types: dark damage is associated to Grenth, chaos damage is associated to Lyssa and holy damage (it is no longer light damage) is associated to Dwayna).

Konig Des Todes.2086

The “presence of all the aspects of magic” is ley lines – this is what Taimi explicitly says in S3E2. And ley lines are prismatic in appearance, with a heavy hue or blue (largely being blue with purple, green, red, and yellow outlines). An sometimes, rarely, they’re yellow with red/purple outline.

The composition of ley lines is an interesting topic: I noticed that the lesser ley lines, like the one generated by Glenna in the Stronghold of the Faithful to traverse the very first bridge, simply appear as blue, no other colour in there. Once we encounter bigger flows we start to observe different colours: firstly, the ley lines themselves appear to scatter into red, green and blue (it’s important to separate the very same ley line from the various magical aspects), secondly we see magic flowing through them. The “golden” ley lines are simply flows overloaded with magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086

“Purple is the color of evil in Tyria.”

Then every mesmer is evil. Seriously though, I personally interpreted this as a humorous response to quickly dismiss two separate entities: Abaddon and Kralkatorrik.
Even if, in my view, dark energy (which I associated with purple) is related to evil/bad…

Konig Des Todes.2086

Also, where does Mordremoth have “pink” magic? All aura hues with Mordremoth and Mordrem are either lime green or dark purple.

For one, various Mordremoth’s vines emit a typical pink hue (in general purple, since there are many gradations).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Point 1, you say all magic is formed of atoms. You use this to argue that dragon magic is the magic we use.
To me, that sounds like saying because gold is made of atoms, and iron is made of similar atoms, they must be the same thing.

It’s amazing how one can distort things. In point 1, I said that the various aspects of magic (fire magic, death magic etc.) are formed by exotic elemental particles like an atom is formed by fermions; they don’t work exactly like atoms. I’m not saying (like you imply) that “dragon magic is the magic we use”, I’m saying that the Dragons use the same magic all other magic users do, which is a natural thing; “Primordus’s magic” is not a thing on its own (to recall the analogy I made earlier, the one about “salt crystals”, they just have access to more magic).
On a side note, gold and iron are atoms (and two distinct ones), they’re not made of atoms but from a different combination of smaller particles.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I do not believe anything says that either reactor drew power from the ley lines.

Either you believe it or not, that’s not the point: your claim is as viable as mine, since we don’t have a clear answer (obviously I believe mine to be more reasonable). For some reason, you chose to believe Scarlet is a liar; I didn’t. I believe what Scarlet says is true and, fairly, it is justifiable by her subsequent actions.
Also, the explosion itself is an indication of the existance of the Anomaly: we now know that upon absorbing too much magical energies these Anomalies will overload and explode; even though we killed it in the fractal (and we know they dissipate when killed) it still exploded, because that’s what happened in reality, and this fractal was generated with the intention to be an exact reproduction of a past event.
Frankly, the term chaos itself indicates that the Inquest did not know what they were dealing with. High quantities of magic (1) and ley lines (2) can lead to chaotic (and catastrophic) events, ripping the very fabric of reality.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

That’s saying “canon lore isn’t canon lore”.
You’re literally arguing that practically everything we’ve known about magic and dragon corruption’s nature is false.

Most of what we know about magic and “dragon corruption” comes from our own deductions; it follows that it can be false. My view is as viable as any other view when lacking a definitive explanation.
I’m trying to explain how the Dragons were naturally driven to control others’ minds and that the whole corruptive process isn’t their prerogative; I’m saying that “dragon energies” are not specific and unique “dragon magics” nor are generated by the Dragons, but are natural things (the whole particles/forces thing) indipendent to them.
The fire magic used by Primordus is not different from that used by any other magic user; the difference is that Primordus has access to an immense amount and that its mind is powerful, able to bend others’ mind to its own will.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Zojja was talking about Snaff’s dragon energy research

It may not be the exact same research but the knowledge we get when reading that extract from Snaff is that: magic (1) is everywhere; magic (1) tends to ebb and flow into these magical currents, or ley lines (2); mind and magic are linked; it’s possible to manipulate magical elements with the mind (through magitech if one’s mind is not powerful enough or when referring to golemancy).
Manipulating magical elements with the mind is what the Elder Dragons do (and it’s what I’m trying to evidentiate from the beginning: “physical” and “mental” corruption). Each Elder Dragon goes through this mental process, regardless of their “sphere of influence” (what kind of magic they imbue their victims with).
Kudu perverted his old master’s research to make his own dragon champions.
When Logan says: “[Kudu]’s been corrupted by the dragon energies”, Zojja just responds: “it is an improvement”; Kudu is not under any Dragon’s influence even though he’s using these “dragon energies”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Actually you can and must [take magic out of the universal equation]. Official lore states that the world is in a state of nearly no magic when the Elder Dragons go to sleep.

Magic is and will always be in Tyria’s universe, it does not get destroyed when the Elder Dragons absorb it; you can’t take it out of Tyria’s universe because it’s a fundamental part of said universe. The laws of (magi)physics remain the same even with low levels of magic in the world: the link between the mind and magic is something deeper and more fundamental. To visualize, imagine them to be almost like electricity and magnetism: two faces of the same coin (don’t take this too literally, it’s just a way to show their connection).

Konig Des Todes.2086

your only confirmed cases of magic causing insanity is magic held within Bloodstones. And one very specific Bloodstone at that (ghosts haven’t yet been reported to have returned to the Ring of Fire Bloodstone – instead, they left that Bloodstone to return to the Maguuma Bloodstone) implying that it is something unique to that specific Bloodstone.

Until proven otherwise, the bloodstones simply are containers of magic; what’s unclear (to me at least) is if the red crystals’ formation was a designed phenomenon or a natural unavoidable process.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Nothing says the gods are Ascended. Kormir, for example, never Ascended.

There’s more than one way to Ascend. Nothing excludes that the gift the gods gave to Kormir was that of Ascension, (not many other choices on what it could have been) and, before anyone claims: “why then couldn’t the PC absorb Abaddon’s powers?”, PCs native to Nightfall do not Ascend.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

Everything has a rate of decay. Water goes foul

The issue here seems to be the use of the word “decay”: I associate this word with the rotting of organic materials. Water or air decaying makes no sense to me, if anything they get contaminated. Also metals don’t “decay” in this sense; if anything some may oxidize or erode over time.
When the Dragons imbue their magic into inorganic things, willingly or not, two things may happen: (1) the object in question just works as a container for said magic; (2) if enough magic is imbued, a mind might start to appear.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] Zhaitan’s preference is corpses. But they living risen exist.

With his magic, Zhaitan can only control the undead; honestly, that’s just Zhaitan’s way (the Elder Undead Dragon).
Kellach was slowly imbued with Zhaitan’s magic (death and shadow). Do you think I meant that Kellach would need to fall on the ground and wait a couple of minutes to come back as an undead (like a stereotypical zombie would do)? Because that’s not what I’m saying. He was slowly brought to death, he didn’t even have time to fall dead to the ground.

Konig Des Todes.2086

for example Jormag prefers to corrupt willing converts

It looks like Jormag gets mistakenly treated by some norn, mainly by the Sons of Svanir, as a Spirit of the Wild (it isn’t); the various norn “following” the Ice Dragon hope to gain powers from it in the same way a norn draws power from the Spirit of the Bear (on a side note, the grawls are just fascinated in the powers displayed by the Claw); when presented with what Jormag really does, uncorrupted Sons of Svanir may flee (hence the example I made earlier). How (and if) Jormag “whispers” to those yet to be corrupted is unclear, but in the end we know that Jormag enslaves those corrupted like any other Dragon does; the end result is the same, anyone corrupted will fall to the Dragon’s own will.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Basically, your argument on the sylvari should extend to elementals, but as we quite literally see, is not the case.

Ice elementals can’t be compared to sylvari: they don’t come in existance like sylvari do, they aren’t “protected” by a higher entity like sylvari are. The more magic a Dragon imbues in their victims, the stronger they get (sylvari get covered in thick bark and grow in size; ice elementals get imbued with even more ice magic, overloading them, giving them that typical icebrood appearance).

Konig Des Todes.2086

but the Forgotten ritual could only revert one side of the corruption

In the end, it looks like you agree with me when implying there are two sides to this corruption (“physical” and “mental”). Let me explain again how I view this “sphere of influence” thing: an Elder Dragon is able to enslave the mind of those who fall under its “sphere” of magic, those imbued with a specific kind of magic, and only those.

A fundamental point about the sylvari is that they are a new race, spawning on Tyria for the first time roughly 30 years ago; they’ve never been seen before. How would the Exalted distinguish between the two [mordrem and sylvari] when they’re both made of plants and they first came in contact with mordrem not long before they first encountered any sylvari too.

Trying to making it short, this is my reasoning in a nutshell: the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists; Mordremoth used to be the sole ruler of said Realm, before the Dream (aided by the Pale Tree) and the Nightmare started to contrast his predominance; the creations of said Realm are spontaneous (like some demons and Razah spawned in the Realm of Torment) and come to the flesh world via these infamous Trees (literally “being born” into growing pods), natural physical one-way doorways interconnected to the Mists, but “proper” Mists portals to the Dream Realm also exist (as shown in this story step); these creations’ minds can be bent by Mordremoth (the Realm’s former ruler) or can be aided in retaining their will by the Dream or the Nightmare, benevolent entities kittenpect the will of their Realm’s creations.

On the Blighting Trees: these Trees, like the Pale Tree, do not decide themselves when to give birth to any creature through the pods; in a way, it’s the Realm that dictates that (because those creature’s very essences spawn in there), and/or its eventual ruler. Having a suitable template for the Trees to copy seems to be a fundamental step though (that’s why we see just now the sylvari, anthropomorphic creations: there was no “human template” to copy during the last dragon rise). When the Blighting Trees are provided with suitable templates, they’re able to replicate said templates.

I don’t see how these Trees can be classified as “dragon champions”, on par to Diarmid, when they aren’t even able to present themselves (because they didn’t had a chance to reach such a state; it would have been useless to Mordremoth).
Again, the Blighting Trees didn’t have a chance, like the Pale Tree, to develop a higher mind and are exploited by Mordremoth solely as “minion factories”; they are no more braindead than any other corrupted being.

On the seeds: you assume those seeds are a form of dragon corruption to begin with, and on top of that you assume they somehow got purified; the whole “purified thing” is nowhere to be found, if not in spectators’ speculations.
Unlike animal eggs, fertilized plant seeds can hibernate and remain in their embryonal stage until favourable conditions are encountered; the point is that (in my view at least) the embryo can’t be considered a living being (with its own mind), hence why Mordremoth has to wait for them to be planted before corrupting them.

On Terebinth: I’ll just say that the Revered Terebinth is still young and growing and wasn’t nurtured from its beginning like the Pale Tree was, whom, on the other hand, became the Pale Tree that we know today after roughly 225 years (when starting to give birth to separate individuals).

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] the only thing created to be dragon minions, are dragon minions.

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon.. the Mouth of Mordremoth is its physical body (and from its body, the vines grow). It is not a tree. It just lives around one

The vines are roots, and they can expand across most of continental Tyria; as roots, they come from the Tree, which is the real physical body of Mordremoth (the double helix we see spinning inside the tree is its “heart of thorns”). The Mouth of Mordremoth clearly isn’t Mordremoth itself, it is just a creature corrupted by Mordremoth, used similarly to the Mouth of Zhaitan. There would be no reason in referring to it as a “mouth” if it actually were Mordremoth’s original body itself. Also, the vines surrounding the Mouth really do not seem to come from it, as they constrain it, and it also doesn’t use those vines to attack us: the Mouth is not the origin of the vines.

—CONTINUES—

I’m speechless.
I still haven’t read all of it, but the visual representation is astounding and incredibly close to GW2’s art.
Incredible collaboration!

Konig Des Todes.2086

Here’s one major issue you overlooked: Kudu creates normal dragon minions too. Mechanically these created dragon minions are 100% the same as natural dragon minions; aesthetically they are too.

Not even one of Kudu’s abominations attacks in the name of the dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] there is no true indication that he used “something mistaken for dragon energy”. Especially when he’s siphoning corrupting magic from dragon minions. […] He also has actual dragon minions in captivity (what he’s “removes” dragon energies from) which means he’s not taking the magic from the ley line flow at all. So that point of your counter-argument is false.

The proper captured dragons minions are there to be studied and analyzed. The assertion of the Storage Room Clerk (the one I quoted) makes it really clear that the process of taking these magics takes place at the very bottom of the complex; it removes these energies from deep down. It seems pretty logical that, being deep down, and major ley lines flow deep down, the various aspects of magic (point 1) were removed from the ley lines (point 2). In addition, the Infinite Coil Reactor was built as a replacement for the Thaumanova Reactor, and we know the Thaumanova Reactor was draining magical energies from the ley lines; but the Inquest learned from their mistakes, and now knows that what they were dealing with were in reality “currents of magic”, also known as ley lines (and Kudu learned this from Snaff’s research).
By your interpretation (and you seem to take it for granted without any proof), the Inquest should bring proper dragon minions deep down in the complex to extract their “dragon magics”, a relative slow and limited process.
My viewpoint (about the Inquest’s reactor separating the magics (1) from the ley lines (2)) actually makes sense and is less dependent to proper dragon minions getting captured, which, by the way, are captured just to be analyzed. To further validate this, the Inquest didn’t capture actual mordrem and Subject Alpha is still able to use that kind of magic (the natural aspect of magic).

Konig Des Todes.2086

You say a lot without saying much at all here. I’m not even sure what your point in counter-arguing that “argument” that was specifically designed to be countered is.

Esier explanation: “dragon magics” do not flow through ley lines, the natural magical aspects (1) do. In fact “dragon magics” aren’t even a thing in my viewpoint.

Konig Des Todes.2086

This claim sounds like you’re saying gold is the same as iron, based on your original point that all magic is made of atoms.

I don’t understand what the specific claim you’re referring to is, and how you get to that interpretation; would you point to where you think I said that “all magic is made of atoms”? Which (atoms), by the way, are not elemental particles on themselves. Also, when comparing these exotic particles to atoms I didn’t imply them to work exactly like atoms (it’s difficult, at least for me, to imagine and describe a whole new elemental particle and/or forces from scratch).

Konig Des Todes.2086

If dragon magic is the same as everyday magic, why do people constantly differentiate the two?

When approaching this, I think your assumption still is that “dragon magic is corruption”. I’ll just quote this from the wiki: " “Magic” is often used interchangeably with “dragon energy”, although whether the two are truly the same is ambiguous. ".

Konig Des Todes.2086

And, furthermore, why does the mixing of dragon energy with chaos energy (an everyday magic) result in cataclysmic explosion

The Thaumanova Reactor drew energy (magical energy) directly from the ley lines deep down (exactly like the Crucible of Eternity), seemingly from an interception of ley lines (or a hub); not knowing what they were doing, the Inquest thought they were dealing with chaos magic (they were not). When the reactor started to collapse, and the Anomaly was finally killed, the high concentrations of magics generated quite a lot of chaos energy (as in my viewpoint (3)).

Konig Des Todes.2086

while the mixing of light, dark, and chaos energy (everyday magic), as seen with the Prime Hologram/College Holograms/Ultraviolet Hologram fights, does not?

Uhm… those are holograms: holograms are projected three-dimensional images of objects or creatures. We don’t know anything about eventual magical properties of the holograms.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I do not think that Tyrians would so quickly forget about Margonites, so your first point about them being the “only example” would be false. Furthermore: Flame Legion Shamans do exactly the same, yet are never attributed to dragon energy.

There are hardly any tyrians still alive from those times (roughly 250 years) and, if anything, some elonian citizens might remember them more, but even between them there’s nobody who directly came in contact with them. There never was a chance to make an actual, true comparison for any tyrian.
Why would the Flame Legion Shamans be attributed to dragons? They don’t go around screaming: “Surrender to the fire dragon!”.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

This is your first error. The research Zojja talks about is Snaff’s research on dragon magic, not his research on mentally controlled Golemancy.

The title of that treatise is misleading, since it deals with Snaff’s research regardless; if you’d actually consider both the title and that extract (I suppose it’s an extract), it clearly talks about magic and mind in general, and has to do with Snaff’s whole (magi)scientific work.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Nothing actually says Snaff was right. After all, Snaff never went to a place without magic

Unless Snaff could travel between universes, that’s just how Tyria’s universe work. You can’t take magic out of the universal equation. Snaff could be comparable to Einstein, with the difference that the asura’s theories haven’t been verified and accepted yet, hence they never reached common knowledge.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Where do you get that “too much magic makes one go insane”? The Six Gods don’t seem all that insane and they’re magical powerhouses.
Nothing really indicates that the Elder Dragons are insane either – god complex, sure, but that’s not insanity.

It’s stated and implied numerous times. We have indications with Matthias and with everyone affected by the bloodstone’s explosion (or continued exposure to its crystalline fragments, especially when implanted in the body); even the PC was doomed to lose control had the Priory not intervened; the Shadowstone absorbed the excess magic that was slowly making us lose control.

I thought I made it quite clear that Elder Dragons and human gods aren’t insane: by using (knowingly or not) two opposite “elemental forces” (as shown in point 3) they were able not to go insane; however the Dragons are now dependent to magic while, in contrast, the human gods aren’t (in a sense, we could say that magic is dependent to them). The key here is Ascension; I doubt the Elder Dragons are Ascended, but human gods definitely are.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mesmers use chaos magic. Their minds do not deteriorate. Nor do assassins/thieves.
Necromancers use dark energy. They are not dependent on magic.
[Light energy]

In this interpretaion I took inspiration from various energies, as encountered here (chaos, dark and light), to try and describe fundamental forces (force carrying particles) connecting the mind to magic (which was the main point to actually focus about). The sharing of the name happpened to be a coincidence.
So, here, dark energy isn’t the “dark arts” applied by necromancers; chaos energy isn’t chaos magic (which would be a kind of magic as shown in point 1); light energy isn’t in on itself the combination of every “colour” of magics (1). How they appear was just a naive addition I tried to propose, intended originally as a parenthesis. not intended to be the main point.
However, regarding light energy’s appearance (I went by memory) I was recalling the boon icons and the various auras of the Forgotten’s “floating weapons”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

As an aside, divine fire is white/gold […] Furthermore, there seems to be a distinct difference to me between light energy and divine magic.

“Divine fire”, or “divine magic” in general, seems to be the presence of all the aspects of magic (as show in point 1) and the aura surrounding the PC when killing the Shadow of the Dragon is a clear example of this. In my view, light energy (again, separate in this view from “light magic”) explains how a being (a mind) can do that; it’s the equivalent of a fundamental force.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] we see [dark magic] as ultraviolet. […] In other words, “dark energy” is visually equivalent to “blacklight” – which appears closer to purple at the brightest.

Regarding dark energy’s appearance: we can’t perceive ultraviolet as a colour, so we can’t see it; the violet colour we perceive from the blacklight isn’t ultraviolet but still visible light.
Regardless, this colour can be seen in some of Jormag’s icy formations, within some Zhaitan’s minions, Mordremoth’s “pink magic” is really just that; Kralkatorrik’s kinda tricky, since it is associated with fuchsia/purple (its same “sphere” appeared as fuchsia in that vision).

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

Icebrood Elementals make your argument make no sense – you have ice magic creatures (thus “in Jormag’s sphere” by your argument) and they have no privileges and their change is as drastic as anything else (such as norn to Icebrood Norn). And you just constantly ignore this.

Honestly, I wasn’t even considering this as an issue; and it isn’t, under my viewpoint.
Every ice elemental naturally falls under Jormag’s “sphere”, that’s true (the magic is the same); however, not every ice elemental we see is corrupted by Jormag in the end (it’s not like, upon rising, every single bit of ice belongs to Jormag). Also, why would they have any “privilege” (similarly to the sylvari)? Firstly, elementals’ minds are very simple; secondly, they aren’t aided in resisting the corruption by a higher entity, similarly to the sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[sylvari’s] uniqueness holds nothing with “what they are made out of”

Are you implying that’s what I meant? Because it’s not.
Would you point out to where I (supposedly) said that?
Also, I now understand your “issue” with the ice elementals: it’s called misinterpration.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The Frozen Maw is not icebrood.

While this is true, it is summoned and controlled by a Svanir shaman, and I bet their intention is trying to corrupt it. I’d argue that the corrupted ice formations are a miniature version of the Frozen Maw, themselves preceded by corrupted ice, inert compositions that spawn icebrood elementals upon destruction; main difference being that these minor ice formations are already corrupted.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I highly doubt that its chest being hollow is not indication it was corrupted with more crystal magic than others. Why would crystal result in hollowness? That makes sense.

Another one of your mistakes here: we assume Kralkatorrik uses crystal magic, it’s just common knowledge; that’s one of the forms its magic takes. Even ice is a crystal, this doesn’t imply that Jormag uses crystal magic, which is something that we, again, assume to be a thing.
Anyway, the Shatterer’s legs are somewhat visible on the image found in the wiki (link); there are clear hints of muscle tissue under the tainted skin (it’s somewhat visible from that image).

In conclusion:

Konig Des Todes.2086

In this segment, you also admitted that the Pale Tree is not natural, which was – as I understood it – your original argument. You’re going back on yourself now.

Can the process of nurturing a human child, and trying to guide him/her with your “ways”, be considered unnatural?
Noticeably, the Trees spawning from these seeds (Pale Tree included) do not naturally have a parental figure like we humans do (them being plants), but, like a child, they have the potential in developing and refine their mind.
Give these Trees no stimuli and their minds will be dull; they’ll linger with their physical nature. Give these Trees any kind of interaction with other minds and they’ll assimilate from those. What Ventari and Ronan unknowingly did was exactly that, they transmitted their teachings to the Pale Tree, who slowly assimilated and learned from them, gaining a higher consciousness in the long run.

If any tree or plant could do this (like what you think happened with the Revered Terebinth), why even present us with this “seeds in a cave” concept to start with? Also, funnily enough, the Revered Terebinth looks more like a white oak than the Pale Tree itself (clearly because it’s still young and growing), have you even seen it in game? It also has that typical tangly vibe to it.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You say these trees exist. So point them out. You haven’t yet, and I can tell you right now: you never will. The Pale Tree is a one-of-a-kind tree in either game. In appearance, size, and speed of growth.

• For once, all the Blighting Trees come from those seeds (I said that from the start), but they’ve been corrupted. Secondly, I proposed Terebinth, but it looks like you discarded my latest explanation, not even considering it. I’ll try to propose it again, quoting: “[…] it’s stated that Fiana’s death “changed the natural growth of this tree” and not that “it changed the nature of the tree”, it’s radically different. The natural growth of the tree was influenced by that happening, similarly to what Ronan and Ventari did to the young Pale Tree.”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

That sounds like you’re calling them braindead.

• I explicetly told you that’s not what I meant and you keep going on this route; not much for me to say anymore I guess.
  Also, Blighting Trees are not dragon champions: they just indirectly spread the corruption by producing minions (they’re exploited by Mordremoth as “minion factories”) and we can’t assume they direct minions.

These were just some examples.

— Update on the whole idea (thread; main post) —

I made a mistake when saying that we don’t see any other avatar associated to a Tree. We see Mordremoth itself, the very origin of the corruption, presenting to us in its avatar form once we’re in the Dream (the Realm). It itself was generated from one of those same seeds, it is one of those Trees and projects itself with a reptilian form, identifiable as a dragon, because those were the creatures populating Tyria a long way back. A similar helix to the one we see rotating in the Heart of Thorns (the PoI) can be spotted in the Grove, the actual body of the Pale Tree.
This still doesn’t imply however that the seeds came from him, since we know corrupted creatures can’t naturally reproduce, Elder Dragons in primis.
This would also provide a firmer explanation to why Mordremoth is able to enter the Dream of Dreams (the Realm) and communicate with the Realm’s creations.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mordremoth never bothered trying to corrupt the Pale Tree.

I doubt it even could corrupt the Pale Tree at this stage, given the Tree’s powerful mind and deep connection to the Dream; he might as well shut it down completely by killing it, since it’s identified as a threat now.
After all, Mordremoth even struggles to corrupt sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Despite all of Glint’s defenses in GW1, all of the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders not a single one was present when Kralkatorrik killed Glint.

Are you saying those are Glint’s minions? While some could have been summoned by Glint, they are elementals in the end; they can even be spotted in GW2, in Glint’s Lair, continuing to form long after Glint’s death.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[The Risen] are not undead. Risen can be living or dead, plant or animal, soil, water, air, metal or clay […] But they still have their leaves. […] Kellach

To start, I don’t understand this: are you saying water, air, metals, soil or clay are either living or dead? How can those even be considered Risen? I must have misinterpreted, since it doesn’t make sense to me.
Anyway, are Kellach and some corrupted trees your only examples of “living Risen”? Firstly, the trees just got corrupted and might still be in the early phases, hence still having the leaves attached; secondly, when you assume that Kellach is alive when fully turned, what do you exactly mean? That he still fulfills his living physiological functions?
Yes, Zhaitan can start the corruption process even from living beings, but they cannot be considered proper Risen until fully turned, when their physical body completely changes (Kellach fully turned just at the end), dieing in the process, just to rise (Risen) once again, undead, under Zhaitan’s full control.

—CONTINUES—

“Unfortunately”, the original topic inevitably intercepts with others, spawning different discussions more or less connected.

@Konig: Ultimately you approached and/or refuted most of my propositions guided by various assumptions, common ideas now taken for granted or misguided by misinterpretation.

Let me show some examples of this:

Konig Des Todes.2086

If sylvari are new to this time period, they could not be a pre-existing species, your original claim.

• That’s nowhere to be found in my original claim. I implicitly claimed that the seeds are a natural pre-existing species; in my view sylvari spawn from the Mists (the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists) and come to the flesh world via these Trees, the Pale Tree being the primary example.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Exalted – including Ruka – were around when plant creatures not tied to Mordremoth were commonplace – in the very odd case Exalted weren’t told what a mordrem was, he’d be more likely to have called the sylvari a Thorn Stalker.

• For once, why even bother building so close to the jungle? They could avoid mordrem totally this way. But I’m digressing… So with this you are implying that the Exalted cannot possibly mistake a plant creature like a sylvari as a threat, a creature which ultimately they never came in contact with, because they were instructed by the Forgotten in recognizing mordrem (Forgotten’s crash course: “dragon minions for dummies – how to identify them”, attend today, before our serpentine races disappears from Tyria!).
  We know they’ve been at war with mordrem for quite a while now (the Exalted) and it follows they associated plant creatures with a threat, a thing to regard with concern to say the least.

Konig Des Todes.2086

We see a Mordrem Guard return to his own self during Buried Insights. This is impossible if it was dragon corruption.

• I tried to answer that with my own proposition but you never took it in consideration, instead you just kept reiterating your point. Summarizing, I said that those specific mordrem guards (even though I think we interact with just one) are still not fully subjugated by Mordremoth in the mind and are still struggling (given that their connection to the Dream aids them in resisting). It looks like that specific Mordrem Guard that Canach talked with finally fell to Mordremoth in the end.

Konig Des Todes.2086

What ArenNet has said is that the sylvari are dragon minions. It was all over HoT promotions. They never talked about how they’re not under his control – that is one huge kitten black gap in lore.

• The main assumption one can make upon opening this thread is: “this contraddicts lore”, when if anything it contraddicts what we think to be true. Unless you provide me an example (which you didn’t for now), the only real assertion that the sylvari come from Mordremoth comes from Wynne (as I said in the main post), a sylvari herself who stated that she saw it in the Dream. We know for a fact that these dreams can be misinterpreted.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You’re making the error of treating dragon minions as reproducing like standard creatures

• I made it quite clear that those eggs should have been fertilized before the corruption took place (I even said “dragon minions are sterile”). Ultimately, that “minions naturally reproduce” it’s not what I meant to say.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which means that the seeds must be germinated

• Only if you assume they’re corrupted in the first place. After all Ronan snitched a seed, not a seedling.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If the sylvari have been a long-standing race in Tyria and not in hibernation (ergo, dragon minions) but having seeds so close to civilization then there would be older trees nearby – with the production rate of the Pale Tree, these older trees would have hundreds of thousands of children adventuring out into the world. We’ve seen none, so it actually does stand to reason that there are none.
[…]You are under the outright false assumption that the Revered Terebinth is the same as the Pale Tree. It is not.
[…]There is no reason why the Blighting Trees would be the only dragon champions that are effectively brain dead, especially for an Elder Dragon of Mind.

Sylvari as we know them spawned on the face of Tyria for the first time roughly 30 years ago, there’s not a single historical evidence of them existing priorly. The trees themselves existed all around but they never reached their full mind potential, at least most of them; the Pale Tree is a unique incident, probably the first of its kind.
Regarding Terebinth, I never said it is equal to the Pale Tree, just that their origin is shared: they come from the same seeds. Also, as you pointed out, it’s stated that Fiana’s death “changed the natural growth of this tree” and not that “it changed the nature of the tree”, it’s radically different. The natural growth of the tree was influenced by that happening, similarly to what Ronan and Ventari did to the young Pale Tree.
As for the the Blighting Trees, never I intended to say they are braindead, just that when Mordremoth corrupts them their mind potential is forever lost (unless it would be possible to purify them like Glint).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They are “prvileged” but not in the fact that they are “already under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence”. That has no involvement with the matter.
[…]Corruption’s physical changes happen no matter what Material A is. It is always a case of: Material A (variable) changes into Material B (dependent on dragon). There is no ands, ifs, or buts. You will never find any case that is different.

I’d argue that them already being under Mordremoth’s “sphere of influence” is a crucial matter. They are already imbued with plant magic. The notion of “Material A into Material B” just breaks down with the sylvari, since they’re already plants, hence already under Mordremoth’s sphere (which doesn’t imply being corrupted); but they’re aided by powerful entities (such as the Pale Tree and the Dream) in resisting the jungle dragon (I’ve gone in detail on this topic in another thread if you’re interested: the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists). Your counterargument to this is that Mordrem Guards (sylvari imbued with even more plant magic by Mordremoth) are not corrupted by the jungle dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that Kellach never died, and at the end he is in full control of the undead. I say. Again.

Kellach never died? Really? At the end he turns undead, fully corrupted (not just diseased). Before turning undead one must be inevitably and technically dead, that’s the very definition of the term.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We know that corruption in small details can be cleansed. We do this during the charr personal story with the amulet experiments. Mind you, this is a recent development and does not purify creatures.

But we do see creatures being purified from small amounts of “corruption” by the priory: mysterious plague.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They’re never considered an elemental in either mechanics or lore.

There’s no doubt the Frozen Maw is a giant ice elemental; we also witness a similar one in the Snowblind Fractal where it’s also defined as an Elemental Source.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’ve looked at the Shattered thousands upon thousands of times. It’s full body is a stone with insides of air. Just look at its chest, the kitten thing is hollow.

If you happen to, try to look at it once more without preconceptions: its legs (the back ones) are quite clearly an indication of a creature being turned by corruption; they look fleshy. Its chest being hollow is just an indication that it was imbued by Kralkatorrik’s magic way more than regular minions; the Shatterer is, after all, a dragon champion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Here’s a question for you: if sylvari were not created as dragon minions, why is Ruka’s first reaction to the sylvari PC to call them a mordrem?
You would think someone trained to combat dragon minions for two centuries would know the difference between a standard plant creature (that were common when Ruka and the other Exalted were humans) and a dragon minion (which are drastically different than creatures of the same element or whatnot).

Why would the Exalted know about the sylvari? They’re new to Tyria, spawning for the first time roughly 30 years ago. In seeing a walking/thinking plant Ruka’s association to mordrem is understandable, especially since he already came in contact with mordrem before hand; there’s very little to distinguish the planty corruptions of Mordremoth from the sylvari at first glance. Unless of course Ruka said something like: “Beware of the sylvari, for they come from Mordremoth! Trust me, I can identify dragon minions, I was trained by the Forgotten in doing so.”.
The Exalted weren’t “trained”, as you say, to combat dragon minions, they are simply uncorruptible by “nature”; if anything they were instructed with overwatching Glint’s legacy, but in reality they (once humans) volunteered to. It’s not like they can say if something is corrupted or not, not more than we can anyway.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I’ve said countless time on these forums, the Mordrem Guard are not corrupted – not by traditional means. He basically implanted thoughts, but that’s all. No more. No less. No physical change, no removal of their free will. This is why sylvari can resist “Mordremoth’s call” – because it isn’t dragon corruption. Dragon corruption cannot be resisted and cannot be purified without rare resources.
[…] what makes sylvari immune, and why are the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree freed from corruption?

You kind of contraddict yourself here: in one hand you assume that sylvari turned by Mordremoth into Mordrem Guard are not corrupted (when they are, both physically and mentally) and on the other you assume that the Pale Tree, Malyck and it follows every single sylvari, or any creation of these trees in general, had to be cleansed from Mordremoth’s corruption. Do you see the confusion here?
Also, if they were purified dragon minions and Mordremoth was able to corrupt them back (but you argue that Mordrem Guards are not corrupted), why wasn’t Glint also corrupted back by Kralkatorrik? Unless I’m making the mistake of mixing the two purification processes; otherwise you are assuming things without any basis.

To clarify, would you explain what you mean with “purification” here? Or even point out the source where, to quote you, “that’s what ArenaNet has said”?

Also, regarding the sylvari changing their body, we never see a heavy transformation as we see happen with the Mordrem Guard (they get covered with thick bark all over, there’s no more “green” visible); Mordremoth corrupted them physically by imbuing them with even more plant magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why not just plant them immediately?
[…]
We even see them corrupting eggs

Once the Elder Dragons go back to sleep, it seems like their minions will mostly dissipate (except for the most powerful champions, whom can go in hybernation like their masters; and no, Blighting Trees are not dragon champions), so the seeds are prevented from germinating during this specific unsuitable condition, when the probability of seedling survival is low (difficult for the dragon to corrupt); in addition we don’t know the lifespan of these trees. To add on this, we have no idea if Mordremoth originally had any clue about the potentialities of these seeds, since he just uses the trees as “minion factories” (at least not until coming in contact with the Dream Realm through Scarlet).

The eggs you mention are a different case though (with Zhaitan, but we even witness a case with Primordus): they were obviously already fertilized before being corrupted (dragon minions are sterile, as a consequence of the “physical corruption” which alter their physical structure), but they were already in an advanced stage (fetal); all of this is true unless every single creature fertilized their eggs just moments before being corrupted. As far as I know, plant seeds (opposed to animal “eggs”) once fertilized can remain in a dormant state (watch seed dormancy).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except those trees are still alive. Look at the leaves.

The trees corrupted by Zhaitan are an undead version of the original tree. Their leaves still being there is no different from risen’s organs still being there, it’s death magic. Ultimately Zhaitan physically corrupt the living by imbuing them with his kind of magic (like any other Dragon), finally turning them undead (which implies killing them first).

-continues-

So, the Magic of the Elder Dragons, again, is the same magic we all use (1); the Power of the Ley Lines are the various natural forces (force carrying particles) that dictate how “magic” interacts with everything (2); the Energy of the Mists is honestly a mystery right now (we don’t really know that much) and I’m not able to go into deep examination yet but ultimately it falls under the universe’s forces and particles, it’s just composed of even more exotic ones.

After all of this, one could argue: “But Zojja said that Kudu created dragon champions!”.
When regarding the process of imbuing someone with magic (1), the only real example tyrians (in GW2) came in contact with was when the Elder Dragons do so; it follows that when Kudu controlled those “abominations” they were referred to as “dragon minions”. However, Kudu controls those abominations without the need of installing a magitech device on their chests, like the Inquest does in Arah (regarding Kudu’s Monster, I personally doubt it is under his total control: firstly, it is “imprisoned”, secondly it is imbued with a lot of magic, four different aspects too, so chaos energy (as shown in point 3) might start to have a role here).

Once again, one could argue: “But Kudu himself said he invested the power of the dragons into these creatures!”. Let’s look at this quote from an Inquest subordinate:

Storage Room Clerk: The Crucible of Eternity removes and concentrates dragon energies at the bottom of the complex.

Ultimately the whole deal isn’t clear even to Kudu, but what the reactor does is that it scatters the ley line flow, isolating the six main aspects of magic. These can then be artificially concentrated into various subjects via magitech. To clarify, we know the “coloured magics” flowing through the ley lines are the natural aspects of magic we all use and that the Crucible make use of these magics; it follows that there’s no such thing as “dragon magic”, there’s just “magic”.

P.S. I really think that when designing magic they drew inspiration from the natural world, hence modern physics. I’d really like to know the opinions of everyone on this.

@Konig: To help me understand your view, how do you exactly interpret a “sphere of influence”?

Let’s try to look at all of this a from different angle (all of these ideas, not just the ones I’m gonna write now, are a work-in-progress for me; what I’m about to show here might be hard for me to explain, so be willing to follow me).

Let’s start with Kudu: as said by Zojja, he has perverted Snaff’s research and wants to make his own “dragon champions”.
Logically, the next step should be that we take a look at the results of Snaff’s research:

Snaff, A Treatise on the Mental Puppeteering of Golems:

Some scholars theorize that magic flows through all things, that we swim in magic as fish swim in water, or as we ourselves live in air. This magic is said to ebb and flow via currents called ley lines.
Magic infuses everything in the world. The building blocks of reality are held together by magic. With the right connectors, manipulating magical elements with the mind becomes possible.
The mind is a powerful and fragile quantity in the world equation and the Eternal Alchemy. It can move mountains or it can be shattered like glass.
My research has found a thread between magic and the mind. The two are linked. Where there is one, there must also be the other. The igniter is belief.

In Tyria’s actual universe “magic” is generated by the interactions of exotic elemental particles and forces that are fundamentally new and different from our own ones (view this as additional particles and forces into our standard model) and the Mind is somehow also linked to this structure.
We obviously don’t know in extreme detail how that works and it’s hard to order things (as it is in our own world with physics); nonetheless we can try by observation and deduction:
1. The various aspects of magic we see flow through the ley lines are formed by these exotic particles as an atom is formed by fermions (quarks and leptons, or protons and electrons). So, for example, as there’s an atom of gold there’s an atom of fire magic and similarly there will be various isotopes (a theoretical example: if fire magic is the “basic” atom, lava magic will be an isotope of said atom; ultimately they’re treated equally and respond to the same category).
2. The ley lines themselves act more like a force carrier, particles that give rise to forces between other particles; they make said aspects of magic (1) flow constrained for example. Similar forces make the magical atoms (1) come to be in the first place (similarly to the strong interaction).
3. The Mind is naturally linked to “magic”, it has some magical features itself, something that connects it to “magic” to a fundamental level; it’s hard for me to make a clear correspondence right now though.
However, we know too much magic can make one go insane, somehow breaking the equilibrium between these particles. Elder Dragons and the human gods (for example) have dammed this “obstacle”, but in two different ways: the formers are enslaved by magic, they live off of magic and are dependent; the seconds enslaved magic, they are not driven by it. With this knowledge (hoping I explained myself) we can understand chaos, dark and light energies:

• Chaos energy is deteriorating for the mind, it makes the magic user lose control of himself, not commanded by anyone/anything in particular really; an extreme case would be the unbound Anomalies. It appears as a combination of both dark energy and light energy: purplish blue.
• Dark energy makes one dependent to magic, and it’s also used by Elder Dragons (for example) to change other’s minds, imposing their will on them. It appears as fuchsia/pink; this colour is present in various regards of most Elder Dragons we’ve interacted so far: Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, Jormag and Zhaitan; also Kudu is surrounded by it.
• Light energy corresponds to the ascension of the mind, a complete control over magic. With this, the human gods are able to “gift” their magic (the magics in point 1) without subduing other’s minds. It appears as blue/light blue, for example: “divine fire” or even the “Blue Orb”.

— CONTINUES —

Konig Des Todes.2086

Or so we presume. The Elder Dragons may have 2 spheres of influence each, but that doesn’t mean that there are only 12 spheres of influence. It may be that the rest were either taken out of the equation (Bloodstones, maybe krait obelisks and other things too) or were too divided among the Elder Dragons to be considered by the Priory a “third sphere of influence”.

Given the nature of the Bloodstone (why and how the Seers created it), I really doubt it had a sphere of influence associated to it, even when the human gods fragmented it (would you explain the krait obelisks and “other things”?).
If we assume there are multiple lesser aspects of magic, they might all fall under one sphere of influence; what do I mean by “lesser”? To recall the “magic is like light” analogy: different shades of the same colour belong to the same main colour. So, while there are only twelve spheres of influence, the various aspects of magic might be more (afterall, we distinguish only between seven main colours, tending to call their various shades with a single name, but there are many more).
On a side note, each natural element, and their magical counterpart, can be linked to an Elder Dragon in a way or another (still unsure which to which): Fire to Primordus; Earth to either Primordus, Mordremoth or even Kralkatorrik; Air to Kralkatorrik; Water to “DSD” or Jormag (given that elementalists can summon ice when attuned to water magic). Nothing says though that various aspects of magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086

There are a vast number of differences between elementals and destroyers. For starters, the hive mind. Elementals are controlled, but do not have a telepathic link to the will of the elementalist.

We are comparing one single human elementalist to an Elder Dragon; the amount of magics, and the power of their minds, are on a whole different scale. Firstly, “normal” elementalists can control one or few at a time and there might not be presidence for an hive mind, secondly you say elementalists don’t have a “telepathic link”, but how would the elementals even be controlled if a telepathic mind communication process wasn’t happening (not implying that it’s an active process though, we can’t/don’t really know)?

Konig Des Todes.2086

While the Margonites case does seem irrely similar to dragon corruption (like the Foefire and Rite of the Great Dwarf), the reapers does not. They are souls, simple as that. Their appearance no more unique than the Shock Phantoms and other similar soul-based undead of GW1.

Neither the margonites nor the Reapers seem to be constrained in following their respective god (we’ve seen margonites changing their mind and helping us); and neither do the dwarves seemingly – look at Ogden. Regarding the Reapers I’d argue that Grenth, in order to transform them in its avatars, imbued them with its magic(s).

Regarding Shiro:
I see what you mean there. If anything it’s the Affliction that’s more akin to corruption as we know it: undead beings corrupted by the malevolent spirit of Shiro, characterized by cancerous formations. Ultimately we don’t know the extents of the power of the Envoys; I suggest we keep Shiro out of the equation for now.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I would question this. If this were the case then why would people repeatedly call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”?

Let’s start by saying that mind and magic are intertwined; when magic comes from a specific source (a specific mind) it will be linked to that source. People’s beliefs can be fallacious: in the Thaumanova Reactor Fractal we learn the Inquest thought they were dealing with chaos magic; Scarlet referred to it as dragon energy; in reality they were dealing with ley lines. In a sense though Scarlet wasn’t that far off: the various aspects of magic, which can and do flow through the ley lines, are a form of sustainment for the Elder Dragons, given that they obtain energy from magic (hence dragon energy). There’s just ley line magic (or the various natural aspects of magic).

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] the Elder Dragons’ versions are all unique variations – Jormag’s ice, for example, is black and blue and shimmers (very akin to the compressed ice of a glacier’s underside which comes out a dark blue, but it seems to be liquid beneath the exterior coating with how it moves).
Thirdly, and by far most importantly, the elementals are created from the elements without change. Dragon corruption always results in a material changing, even if the material is of the same as the corruption form – e.g., ice being corrupted by Jormag looks drastically different just as lava being corrupted by Primordus does between before and after.

To visualize what happens with the “physical corruption” (which happens with dragon minions but also with the margonites and the seven reapers) let me try to use an analogy: consider taking a glass full of water and starting to puor salt into it; if you keep adding it you will reach a point were it will no longer dissolve in the solution and the salt will eventually start to crystallize. Upon comparison with a normal glass of salted water (non supersaturated) it will look different, but in the end we have the same salt in both glasses, just present in different forms and concentrations. If we now equate the salt to Jormag’s magic and the glass of water to an ice elemental, it’s clear that in icebrood elementals magic may be present in different concentration and may act in different ways, but it’s ultimately the same magic used by all other magic users; it just happens that Jormag has access to an immense amount of it (additionally it might know how to use it in unique ways which it had time to learn through the countless millennia).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Similar with the gods – they had fire magic, ice magic, etc. but their magic is repeatedly called “divine magic”.

The only real divine thing we come in contact with is “divine fire”, a spell of unclear origins.

Konig Des Todes.2086

This implies that there are three overarching forms of magic which gets divided into the same or similar “spectrums” – ley line, divine, and draconic – arguably a fourth kind too (Mists)

Couldn’t disagree more on this view. What exists is the various natural aspects of magic (which we see flow through the ley lines in a plasmatic state) which every being in Tyria’s universe (the actual universe) has access to, including humans, charr, Elder Dragons or the human gods (regarding the Mists, a whole thread could be opened on them, but we just don’t know how they function and if there’s a specifical magical aspect (possibly it’s aether) connected to their “protomatter”).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Nothing says Jormag’s appearance is icy…
While probable given Zhaitan and Mordremoth, not definite. After all, there was nothing in Primordus’ appearance in GW1 that screamed “Fire” and nothing in Kralkatorrik’s appearance in GW1 that screamed “Crystal”.

Of course, we don’t know yet what the remaining Elder Dragon’s spheres of influence are, that was just for the sake of argument. Regarding this though, I’d argue that from how Primordus was presented, it somehow “screamed” Fire.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Slight caveat:
Many Sons of Svanir can control icebrood. Such as in their second largest stronghold of The Barrowstead or within Honor of the Waves.

Does this erase the fact that those Sons of Svanir ran for their own lives from their corrupted brother? I don’t really understand your caveat here.

-continues-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

While the physical change cannot be undone, they happen simultaneously in all dragon minion cases. It is not an order of events. And, ultimately, the mind is not corrupted – the free will is simply removed. Not subjugated either, removed.

As I said in response to Aaron, the “mind corruption” (total mind subjugation) has to follow the “physical corruption”. The victims are not completely under the various Dragons’ spheres of influence until fully corrupted in the body.
And… “the free will is removed”? How do you get that and what does it even mean? When an Elder Dragon gain access to a mind (by twisting the physical form setting it under its sphere of influence) it acts almost like a virus: it overwrites the will of the victim with its own. Regarding the few mordrem guards that still struggle with Mordremoth, it’s clear they weren’t yet fully subjugated, still aided in resisting by either the Dream, the Nightmare or the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth doesn’t corrupt sylvari in the traditional sense. This is a major error on your part. If it did, then we’d not see Mordrem Guard resisting him – dragon corruption is irresistible no matter what, both when it happens, and afterwards.
Yet we see sylvari resist the act of corruption, as well as the mental hold once Mordremoth’s voice goes quiet.

To quote myself: “Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.”. Sylvari are privileged creatures (or, at least, those who possess a strong link to, for example, the Pale Tree), beings connected to powerful entities which aid them in shielding their minds against the dragon’s “mind subjugation”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan is well known to corrupt living beings, actually.

All the cases and the creatures you mentioned (plants, quaggans, even Kellach) are a case of slow exposition to Zhaitan’s magics (except for the corrupted trees, those are already completely turned; trees are living creatures too and as such can come back from death as undead too); unless fully corrupted in the body, the dragon will not have full control over one’s mind: an incomplete physical corruption won’t give a dragon full access to the victim’s mind. Considering Kellach in particular, before falling completely to Zhaitan, he was a beacon for the risen to follow, which weren’t totally under his control yet. So, ultimately, one will fully be under Zhaitan’s control just once dead and reanimanted (risen), in other words when fully imbued with its magics; that’s just how Zhaitan does. To consider another example, the mysterious plague (which we also can come in contact with and which can be cleansed) will slowly imbue those affected with Zhaitan’s magic while simultaneously slowly killing the host.

Regarding Jormag:
1-2) When an ice formation attacks, it can be considered as an elemental (watch the Frozen Maw and the lesser maws, which are the ones to spawn icebrood elementals), while those that shape the environment are a representation of the magic itself (condensed magic).
3) I don’t know about the Dragonspawn (but given your definition that’s equal to an elemental), but I think the Claws of Jormag have the potential of being former dragons now corrupted.

Regarding Kralkatorrik:
1) I haven’t read the books, but this Crystalline Giant really sounds like an animated thing. The Shatterer, on the other hand, really was corrupted: portions of its body, like the legs, are still flesh (it’s clearly visible).
2) Do you sincerely view the lightnings as an attack made from the air? They are a collateral effect.
3) The soil is decayed? How can soil decay per se? As I explored up, in responding to Aaron, Zhaitan’s magic is flowing throught most of Orr (the region) thanks to the artesian well.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sock.2785:

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user)

There is no strong case for this, honestly, given that everyone and their grandmothers call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”.

I’ll discuss this on the other thread; here I’ll just say that mind and magic are intertwined; when magic comes from a specific source (a specific mind) it will be linked to that source.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They can exist if they seeds were purified while still seeds and placed in that cave. Ronan was never said to flee from the cave, but found monsters within it. Those monsters could have been purified mordrem too.

So, let’s assume this scenario is true: to start with, the seeds and some mordrem along with them were purified by someone from the dragon’s corruption with a process similar to Glint’s cleansing (I guess that’s what you’re thinking about with purified). They were then positioned in a cave (assuming they weren’t purifed in that same cave) and guarded indefinitely by some purified mordrem for whatever reason. Upon meeting Ronan, these purifed mordrem must have thought he was harmless, and not just that, but they must have welcomed him inside, offered him some tea and dismiss him with one seed for him to gift to his daugther (because, as you say, he did not flee, even though it’s implied he did: he snitched the seed and ran away). However, If this were the case (that every seed was purified in a manner similar to Glint’s) then Mordremoth should not be able to corrupt them back. Also, in this scenario, would the cave still be a safe place, still guarded by those purified mordrem, or was it overtaken by Mordremoth? Ultimately, all of this adds more questions than it answers.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Why would they not corrupt the seeds in the same way?

To quote what I said when responding to Aaron: “[the seeds] are in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.”. They weren’t purified because there was nothing to purify in the first place.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2. […] why are they restricted to this cave and not existent elsewhere?

Can you really assert that? I doubt so, since we haven’t explored all of Tyria nor have we come across that very same cave (not that we know at least). In addition to this, we witness another of these trees in its natural state: Revered Terebinth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. […] Blighting Trees, on the other hand, have no reason to communicate with non-mordrem – the Mordrem Commanders can do that for them

Once corrupted into Blighting Trees, they didn’t have a chance to evolve a mind similar to that of the Pale Tree and were just exploited by Mordremoth as a minion factory; they simply can’t project themselves like the Pale Tree (even if they had a reason to). And… are you saying the mordrem commanders communicate on behalf of the Trees? If so, what does that even mean? On a side note, there are stated to be three Bligthing Tree saplings overwatched by Cellona in Auric Basin.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2. We never see other purified trees, whether Malyck’s tree or another, so we cannot say that they do not create an Avatar to talk with others.

You are under the assumption that the seeds were purified. For once, there’s the Revered Terebinth, an example of these Trees, but it’s still growing so we can’t know if, once matured, its mind will be powerful enough to communicate with its creations (the spirit in vicinity to it, taking the form of a typical nature spirit, is just a spirit connected to the tree). What we do know however is that the Pale Tree was cared for and her mind was elevated in the process, ascended in a way (using the term loosely here) and that Malyck doesn’t seem to communicate with its tree (as implied by Malyck’s conversations), hence it follows that its tree’s mind isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree.

-continues-

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Now, the central claims, that mental and physical corruption is separate, and that physical corruption precedes mental corruption. Considering that every creature that’s corrupted physically, and can be corrupted mentally, is corrupted mentally, I see no reason to separate them out like that.

It’s not really clear if the “mind corruption” stage is an active process made by the dragon but it seems it must follow the “physical corruption”; ultimately they aren’t really separate stages, since one is dependent to the other (in the end, not every ice elemental naturally belongs to Jormag). In addition, to recall the quote about the elementalists corrupting elementals when summoning them, the various aspects of magic come from the Dragons’ minds (I’m not saying they created said magics, but that mind and magic are strictly connected); if a mind is strong enough it will most definitely prevail on weaker ones, hence when they corrupt someone (imbue them with their kind of magic) in the body they will definitely subjugate the mind, there’s no reason for them not to do that.

On Glint: as you say, the alteration of the body on its own is not the corruption itself. Interestingly, another strange thing happens: when the dragon dies its minions will still go on “serving” it; I view this as an indication that the “mind corruption” was intended and shaped by the dragon.

So, again, the corruption of the body is a necessary step for the Dragons in order to turn their victims under their respective spheres of influence (in other words, once the body is corrupted, they’ll be able to tune in with their minds and fully twist them to their will).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Furthermore, in the rare cases where dragon corruption isn’t shown to use as a instantaneous process, we see physical and mental corruption advancing more or less at the same time.

Before Kellach completely fell to Zhaitan (when his body was definitely changed and imbued with the Dragon’s magic), he was a beacon for the risen, they followed him and weren’t totally under his control yet. The slow and gradual exposition to the Undead Dragon’s magic didn’t allow Zhaitan to have a full grip on him yet, not until fully corrupted in the body.

Same goes for the Sons of Svanir. They are brought to idolize Jormag, either by advice or by choice; most of them might welcome the dragon’s corruption as a gift, still not realizing what it really involves. Here, when the corruption process is slow it’s the same thing as Kellach’s: they’re not completely under the dragon’s sphere of influence until fully corrupted in the body.

Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.

P.S. Interesting informations regarding the spectral weapons, I totally missed that.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Are you saying that Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s inanimate creations aren’t corruption?

In twisting the environment, Jormag’s icy formations and Kralkatorrik’s crystals are in the end just a representation of the magic itself (magic can condense, think of it as the various states of matter); there’s nothing there for the dragons to impose their will on (unless the high concentration of magic(s) itself spawns minds, like with the elementals). So, those crystals are another way for the dragons to spread their magic all around (hence corruption), by condensing (solidifying) their magic around the place and to define a border of some kind (given a fixated volume, there will be more particles of magic if arranged in a solid state that if in a gas state); unlike Zhaitan, other Elder Dragons don’t have access to an artesian well to make their magic flow around easily, but even the Undead Dragon make use of crystallized magic (Orrian Towers).

Speaking of Zhaitan, it really is unclear, as you say, how much of the damage really belongs to the Elder Undead Dragon, but when they say that “the land is corrupted” it’s because the artesian well that reaches to all parts of Orr was poisoned with Zhaitan’s magic(s). “Land” here has to be intended as “territory”, the parts of the orrian region connected to the artesian well. It’s as if Zhaitan’s magic flows through the veins of Orr, reaching and expanding to every corner of the system (still in its “gas” form).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On trees and coral having minds- this frankly baffles me. Do you have a reason to come to that conclusion? Or are you just saying it because your theory requires it to work?

Ultimately what I meant to stress was the fact that they aren’t inanimate things, but living things (hence corruptible by Zhaitan). In rereading what I wrote I see what you mean, I used the term loosely; let me correct myself: mind as in brain: Zhaitan can’t twist the will of these less evolved beings like it does with humans because there’s really no such will in these beings to begin with, but it can still subjugate their basic brain’s functions and control them (like we see it doing with other animals: bulls, chickens, drakes etc.).

Going back to the seeds, given that they’re in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.

-continues-

If we assume the process of acquiring a Dragon’s “sphere of influence” is similar to how Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s powers, than the spheres of influence of Zhaitan and Mordremoth are lost: there was no Kormir to completely absorb their magics at the moment they died and their “powers” spread throughtout all of Tyria.

What we were told to not let happen with Abaddon happened in Tyria with the Elder Dragons. I personally think that, as of now, there’s no entity with any of Zhaitan’s or Mordremoth’s “spheres of influence”, those magics spread evenly throughout Tyria.

As I said earlier, this is why Primordus still needs to create destroyers first (supposedly fire magic is under its sphere of influence) and just later, having now access to some of Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s old magics, can he imbue “new” magics within them; I doubt it could create risen of its own.

In addition, that’s why Glint was with Destiny’s Edge in the first place while fighting Kralkatorrik: if the Elder Dragon had died, Glint would have been able to absorb its powers.

@Aaron Ansari

There are two stages in the corruption, in order:

1. Physical corruption: the altering of the physical form via imbuing the target with specific aspects of magic.
2. Mind corruption: once under a specific “sphere of influence” the subjugation of the mind can take place.

This is supported by the fact that both Twitchy and Glint retained their altered body form once their minds got cleansed on the Altar of Glaust.

On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.

As you pointed out, Kralkatorrik twisted the environment itself (inanimate things), Jormag creates icy formations all around, Zhaitan corrupted vegetation and sea creatures in general. Let’s analyze these one by one:

• Zhaitan corrupts dead beings and ultimately the ones you listed are exactly that: once living trees and sea creatuers now risen from death by Zhaitan (I’d argue that, in Tyria, all of these creatures have a mind, as simple or as primordial as it can be (or, as you say, non-thinking)). We don’t see Zhaitan really making heavy use of those though; even if he subjugated their minds, they’d be of very little use: mussels, sea urchins, corals, “normal” plants, they’re all limited both in their minds and in movements, and would be of very little use in spreading the corruption. On the other hand, the Elder Undead Dragon doesn’t corrupt objects; I can’t think of any case right now except maybe a couple of Dwayna’s statues in the Cathedral of Zephyrs (but I doubt they are obtained via magic). In this regard, the real mistery with Zhaitan would be the orrian spectral weapons, but they appear to be a mystery in general (orrian ones, “chaos” Forgotten ones, bloodstone ones etc.).

• Jormag’s territory is filled with icy formations, but not all are sentiet nor hostile. The ones that do interact with us are comparable to elementals, from the small corrupted ice formations (which themselves summon “typical” icebrood elementals) to the enormous ice elemental being summoned in Wayfare Foothills (the Frozen Maw).
  It’s as if the normal (inanimate) icy formations are a crystallization of Jormag’s ice magic.

• Kralkatorrik twisted everything invested by its foul breath, turning the land black and generating a clear and defined aura surrounding the affected areas. The air itself seems twisted: by walking into the Brand its almost like walking into corruption itself. However, we aren’t attacked" by the soil, by the twisted structures or by the air itself, more generally by inanimate things.

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user); difference is they have access to a much greater quantity and, through the millennia, they have learned how to use their magics quite effectively (by specializing), mastering them.

P.S. I made a whole thread about the “corruption”: here.

1. Specifically, Primordus didn’t absorb all of Mordremoth and Zhaitan magic, so I doubt he has new spheres of influence. After all, as we saw in Ember Bay, it still needs to create destroyers first and just later imbue them with these new magics. There are no risen belonging to Primordus (nor there were under Mordremoth’s control, and he absorbed some of Zhaitan’s power).

2. Well, I’d say it’s not impossible. In theory it could happen like with the human gods, much like Grenth overthrew Dhuum and Kormir overthrew Abaddon (and Abaddon overthrew its predecessor).