Guild Wars 2

In a bunker ele vs burst ele scenario I tend to agree to the above posters that the bunker ele has an advantage due to the fact that it’s quite easy to avoid the initial, typical burst combo.

From a more general perspective, I wouldn’t say that ele bunkers are better than burst ele in a 1v1 scenario. It depends on the foe and setup. If its a glass cannon d/d thief that gets the jump on you, being a bunker will obviously be the better choice and the bunker ele would still hit rather hard on a glass thief, whereas a burst ele could go down in one global.

Fighting a ranger or engineer could also be difficult as the burst ele relies on the burst combo which is easily avoided and then its a kiting/control fest in which the burst ele will be hurt.

I see more eles in spvp than previously but not more than thiefs, mesmers and guardians.

I usually run d/d and consider myself quite good. Every time I meet a staff or S/X ele I consider it a free kill, unless they are full out bunker in which case it may take some time to down them.

I, for one, would love to see a lower cooldown elite skill as certain other profession have.

I would go with any variant of the auromancer build. Its pretty solid. I guess you know it but if you don’t its bassically: 0/10/0/30/30 with focus on cantrips. I switch between beserker/Val depending on setup.

Solori.6025:

Tell me what you guys think of this build

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEEQJAoYhEmkbwxygjDAkHm4CLCFPYRRBOzA;ToAg0Cnoey8k4J7TunkPNGZ+B

Its more for hotjoin…still in water….but at least its a little different

Would you be able to hit firegrab and change to water before it hits in order to utilize the 20% damage water trait (provided the target is vulnerable)?

Jinks.2057:

They live the burst they’ll run as far as they can. Last one i just fought literally blew all his get aways. Ran past my ability to render him.

Bad players succeed on D/D eles..

Funny comment comming from a thief. Bad players succeed on all bunker specs.

I am not saying go full bunker but I understand your concern. I have yet myself to find a perfect staff build that compares with the offensive powers of d/d eles. Your issue is not just for staff builds. All d/d eles go heavy arcane/water. The whole trait system makes other choices non-forgiving. There aren’t really – to my knowledge – many competitive builds for eles, staff or not.

It may be rather weak heals but if you drop some vitality for more toughness the heals will seem more effective. Also, you could get more healing power, as I said before.

further to point 5) It will nevertheless be hard to catch the d/d ele because of cleasing. Any condition cc will simply be removed and most d/d ele run with at least 2 stun removers. Add lightning flash and he will be hard to catch.

Your build seems to suggest an offensive ranged nuker. That makes you squishy and vulnerable when alone, not only against d/d eles (I assume thiefs are a nightmare for you?) You have almost no healing power and no toughness. Most d/d eles will at least have decent healing power and possibly some toughness which will give them an advantage.

You forego a lot of defensive stats in order to hit hard, which I don’t think is worth it because your squishiness does not outweight your offensive power (in other words, you are glass without the canon). I beelive you would stand a better chance by speccing more defensively.

I suggest at least get some healing power as staff eles has decent healing skills. Also, take Healing Ripple as it provides good healing for a minor trait (most d/d eles also have this). This will enable you to heal more while you kite.

Also, I suggest getting a bit more toughness so you can withstand the initial combo from the d/d ele. It will be a difficult match if you are close to death already from his first combo.

Cleansing wave, renewing stamina and Evasive arcane are great choices. I would probably change Blasting Staff to Elemental Attunemet for boons on swap, such as protection and regen. Note that with the recent patch you get a blast finisher from evasive arcane when in earh attunement which you can combo with your water fields for more healing. Arcane wave can also be used for this purpose.

First of all, I think you need to accept that staff ele is not perfectly suited for 1v1 combat as it has more focus on support aoe. Secondly, most d/d eles will be defensively/balanced specced with good healing power, so they will be hard to take down without burst. If you are a staff bunker, you won’t kill him – but he will likely not kill you either.

Having said that, it all boils down to choice of builds and who is the better player. My advice, though of general character, is as follows:

1. You have to kite and use range to your advantage. Therefore, use your cc skills (and anti-cc) to your best effort and use them wisely (to interrup his combos). There are quite a few staff skills that are usefull here, such as Burning Retreat, Frozen Ground, Gust, Static Field, Windborne Speed, Shockwave, Unsteady Ground. In addition, you can spec cc utilities, though it depends on your build.

2. Dont attack when auras are up unless you are at good range (which you should be).

3. Time your burst till later in the fight, best timed when the d/d water attunement is on cooldown. Stay calm in the beginning, dont overextend and use all abilities at once. Autoattack for a while and try and stay at range and let the d/d ele work for it as he has to get within melee range to be dangerous. When he has exhausted many of his abilities (and they are on cooldown) you should swap to a more offensively role and go to town.

4. Heal early and preferable have regen to tick while you kite.

5. Accept that fact that the d/d ele can bail with RTL if things get ugly. You will likely not be able to catch him (just like thiefs). He will, however, likely be able to catch you, if you try to run.

6. Use terrain to your advantage but I guess that is common sense.

You can use Rune of Speed to gain an additional +7% speed when having swiftness.

Psikerlord: Its not just bunker eles having what you are describing. I run a balanced/offensive auromancer d/d build and I also run with 2/3 stunbreakers, have lots of condition removal and decent healing. However, I am in no way considered a bunker. I am very squisy with only around 17k health and 1k toughness. Landing a burst on me will get me down, but I admit, doing so is not easy due to the mobility and cc.

Another tip for you: When you see a purple/blue aura around the ele and hear a buzzling sound, wait 5 seconds to attack or attack from a 600 m+ range. Each attack will stun you for one sec and make it quite easy for the ele to nail you.

As said by Jericho, soften the ele up with good short bow kiting in the beginning and stay calm, force the ele to use his cantrips and then go to town with your burst. Also, see if you can throw in some dazes on the gap closing skills such as RTL and burning speed, which will help with the kiting and, more importantly, interrupt the ele damage/control combos.

So what you are saying that the above described would’nt work?

Also, if you take Piercing shards (20% dmg increase on vul targets in water), you could in principle start in water, autoattack once to stack 6 seconds of vul, switch to air, then fire and have 40% dmg increase for 5 seconds or what?

Lets say you take the following traits:

1) Internal Fire: 10% damage increase when in fire
2) Air Training: 10% damage increase when in air
3) Lingering Elements: Attunement bonues linger for 5 seconds.

Would this make it possible to have a 20% damage increase for 5 seconds when goin from one of the above attunements to the other? Haven’t tested it myself.

STRanger, though I partly agree, you should also consider

a) heals and regeneration is close to worthless in a burst spec
b) correct
c) correct that we have active defense, though not as much in a burst spec. The boons are also not very relevant as burst spec ele has zero boon duration and zero healing. Also, lightning flash is used during the burst to achieve the same as Steal (without relevant damage though). That leaves out possibly only mistform on a 72 sec timer! Guess what, I would go for stealth any time of day. Finally, yes eles have mobility but that is primariy only RTL which is not that reliant. Again, I would rather have shadow step or one of the other many mobility thief skills.

Yes, both classes has its pros and cons, but in my humble opinion, eles burst is not as reliant as thiefs and thiefs have higher survivability primarity due to stealth. Eles are aoe, though.

True that eles can do burst if specced for it (the same 45 sec interval as thiefs) There are certain differences in relation to thiefs, though:

a) Thiefs can go invis following the burst, eles cannot
b) The ele burst reqires cast time – thief does not
c) Eles have to sacrifice more than thiefs in order to burst

I play a d/d ele balance spec (not bunker). Backstap instagib thiefes are the easiest kills, unless they can surprise me in a zerg environment with cooldowns.

I usually don’t use mistform and would never ever pop it just because the thief goes invis. That tactic would only work against rather clueless eles (which most are, sadly). Condition thiefs are really no threat either due to so much condition removal from water/cantrips, however they can be hard to catch/kill due to all the DB spamming and stealth.

My absolute worst nightmare is daze when going against a thief. So my suggestion is to use that to your advantage.

Add c) utilities, such as cantrips.

While I understand your concern and agree that we are very squishy, you have to adapt to the mindset that the defence of an elementalist is active and not passive, like a warrior. Our defence is primarily based on:

a) Movement and crowd control; and

b) healing and boons, such as regeneration and protection.

As the above poster said. Having played the ele for quite some time now, it is simply impossible to go back to any other profession. They feel so slow compared to the ele. When you have gotten used to the hectic gameplay that involves a-swapping, it’s just un-fun to play a single button-mashing profession, such as a thief or warrior.

As some of the above replies said, immobilize is the bane of a D/D ele, as we rely heavily on movement. In general, I tend to fare worse against heavy CC classes. A cc-heavy engineer can be a tough match. Even a cc-specced guardian with hammer utility is annoying.

In general, ranged classes that can kite can also be a challenge. I have met one p/p daze thief that caused me a lot of grief. He interrupted many of my skills and practically made it impossible to perform any damaging combos, while at the same time kiting me/going invisible so it was hard to land any hits.

Conclusively, in my humble opinion your best bet is to go for a ranged/cc-orientered build. Otherwise, you can go for a bunker spec. Then most d/d eles will find it difficult to kill you because they lack the high (burst) damage to take you out.

Fully agree to Regrets of Sini’s statement:

Bunker/burst style needs to go away

D/D, in pvp, my typical combo is:

Air: 4, 5, (3)
Fire: 3, 4, 2 (just one tic to get burning), 5
Earth: 4, (2/3), 5 (sometimes use Lightning flash while casting).

I, for one have no particular issues, that I wouldn’t find in any other class, both pve and pvp wise. Having said that, I think it’s a bit arrogant to dismiss all “complaints” on the board as being irrelevant and that one just have to learn to play.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in discussing how the ele class, or any other class for that matter, can be made better. Don’t go and confuse this term with becomming overpowered. I agree with the above poster from daphoenix that eles are not per say underpowered. I would love to see a makeover, not to make the class overpowered (I would hate that), but something that would result in more build versatility, fix bugs and make the trait lines more synergetic. Can it be done? I don’t see why not.

But please, for the love of god, don’t confuse trolls, ranting and other one-dimensional posts/replies with actual critique of class mechanics/traits that could be made better and result in and overall optimization of the profession. Not all posts should without thinking first be replied by “learn to play”.

The core problems boil down to the following:

(i) Attunement swapping vs. single attunement trait lines

It’s a fundamental contradictory concept that does not work very well in practice. The trait lines lack synergy with each other. This flaw is basically the reason for many of the below issues.

(ii) Undesirable traits/utilities

There are too many undesirable traits which are never used.
There are certain undesirable utilities which are never used (conjures, anyone?).

(iii) Build versatility

There are only a few builds able to perform on par on a higher level. Water/arcane lines are too mandatory.

(iv) Defense/offense proportionality

Going offensive is just not worth it. Or in other words, the sacrifice is too high compared to other professions. One of the issues may be that the base health is too low and/or that eles don’t scale very well offensively.

(v) Skill cap

The output does not match the input. Players should be better rewarded for mastering a higher skill cap profession, however in my opinion only slightly in order not to destroy overall class balance.

(vi) BUGS

There are still many bugs. Reference is made to the bug list.

From a pvp perspective I find it to be rather good even when running with low healing (around 340). I rarely use the active heal, though. It suits an agressive playstyle where you keep attacking.

Also, I forgot to add, you need to have cc breakers. If you get cc’ed in a 2v1 scenario you will likely go down unless you can escape. CC nullfies your kiting and being rather squishy (unless you are going full bunker) makes it a bad situation to be in.

My favorite is lightning flash. Its on a rather low cooldown, can get you out of a bad spot asap and it can also be used offensively together with churning earth. Nothing more fun to see your foe walk outside the circle and just stands there waiting thinking he is safe, and then, BAM!, you teleport right next to him critting for perhaps 6,5k (my higesth crit I think) + the minor dmg from the teleport.

I would start of by saying that no encounters shold be handled the same. It depends on the prof and builds of your foes. So rule number 1: you have to be adaptive on the fly. Don’t rely fully on the good but foreseable D/D combo /which I guess we all know). Use it, but use it wisely.

I have actually found that with my playstyle and build (0 10 0 30 30), I have a better chance of winning in a 2v1 scenario the more offensively I am specced. In hot join spvp I run full beskerker (but more defensively on my runes). Running with Val amulet provides a little more toughness but nothing I feel actually contributing to the fight, unless the foes are both melee and you can kite and heal more.

In a 2v1 scenario with both being melee I find the easiest win if you are able to use your cc and kite, dmg, heal until they go down. Movement and positioning is key. If you can move in a way that cluster them together, your aoe will help a lot. Also, learn the distance that allow your attacks to hit but not other melee, so you can stay just outside their circle of attack range.

If one melee is a d/d thief its becomes a lot more challenging because you cannot afford to make any mistakes. Also heartseeker spammers are more difficult to kite in a 2v1 scenario because of the leap. Go full burst on the thief (if he is d/d), he will go down quickly. Shocking aura is godsend here. Its the perfect defence.

If one is melee and one is ranged, I would go for the ranged first, while at the same time kiting the melee. If both are ranged, you have to use LOF to your advantage, heal early and dodge a lot (having renewing stamina is really good and can provide for up to 1 minute of vigor in a prolonged fight).

Finally, as one of the above posters said, always be ready to deleselect target and press air #4 to move away to safety. If anything, just for a brief time to get health back up, get your act together, and then go back in for a surprise attack. Consider this an expanded form of hit’n & run tactics;-)

Also, you can spec into earth to get cripple on swap and into arcane for earth dodge roll which also crippes.

Not really, I count six cc’s from the d/d weaponset:
1) Updraft (air)
2) Frozen burst (water)
3) Ring of earth (earth)
4) Magnetic grasp (earth)
5) Earthquake (earth)
6) Churning earth (earth)

When you also add the utilities, mainly from signest, being Signet of earth (immobilize) and signet of water (chill), you actually have quite of lot of cc. Just my 2 cent.

If you want to dance, I guess engineer is a good choice, but really mostly for stance dancing.

If you want to litterally dance, meaning quick movements, hit’n & run and sting like a bee, I would actually suggest thief. A shatter mesmer could perhaps also fulfill that role.

Also, Updraft is a great CC tool. Remember that it is point blank aoe and can hit a group of mobs/players, while at the same time giving you swiftness.

Daggers are melee-ish and therefore you get no range cc with the weaponset. But its not really necessary when combined with the cc from the other attunements.

Shocking Aura is, as Creslin states, EPIC against players in pvp. It more or less nullifies actions for the duration. Its one of the best defences against those annoying backstapping instagib wannabe crybaby thiefs…

I fear you may be right, in particular if they only have two staff members working on it…

I also agree that the trait line should be completely reworked as points in arcane is a must for eles. That will be a huge rework and I understand that it will take time. I understand why Anet has not yet gotten there. I have hopes that they will sooner or later, rather sooner of course, so we can get more viable builds.

I agree to the above post – the churning earth dodge should be a blast finisher, just like the skill itself.

Just copy/paste the link – that works.

I run variations of this d/d build, this version being my burst build for hotjoin pvp:

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-k33;2B2-U0-5sM-Z0;9;59-TT;10;342A45ALo0;3qNnCrV2D5Bz

The patch has introduced two nerfs to this particular build, being:

a) a reduction of 10% in boon duration due to rune nerf
b) no more high might stacking on evasive arcane

I see a lof of grief on the forum about the nerfs. I understand that we got nerfed while getting nothing in return, contrary to the statements from Anet. However, I still find my build highy efficient and fun in pvp. Contrary to what most are saying on this forum, I actually find even d/d burst builds to have rather high survivability through condition removal and movement/dodges.

My point is that its not all bad. Keep sticking to the ele guys and get better while being nerfed. This will just earn you more respect!

By the way, I liky your spirit guys:-)

I agree that it will be better with 5v5 hotjoin and fixing the stealth rendering issue will hopefully help too, but I am nevertheless concerned about all thiefs now going D/D backstab and noob-spamming even more heartseeker. I can most definitely deal with it in 1v1 situation as a D/D elemenatlist), but add in a few people and it becomes extremely annoying.

They nerfed across the board thief skills.

They only reduced thief backstab combo by approximately 10% (due to the CnD damage reduction). It will generally still hit for 14k on 1400 toughness targets.

Conclusion:
We will likely see even more backstap instagib builds now as it is still highly efficient, while other builds are now less attractive. In other words, we ain’t seen nothing yet!

On a side note: They nerfed bunker guardians and eles, which is great.

I have played this build for quite some time now in spvp. It is very good and the survivability is really great with healing and condition removal.

I have found, however, that I might as well go full beskerker amulet without it affecting my survivability much. This provides more burst. It may only work in hot join, though, where the zerg rules. The thing is, if things get tough having +200 healing and +300 toughness when using Celestrial, is not going to make any material difference. In the few situations where I do go down, I would go down anyways irrespetively of amulet choice.

To outweight the beskersker choice I do sometimes go full cantrips and drop arcane wave (mist, earth armor and lightning flash). Also, I sometimes replace water 30 condition removal with lower cantrip cooldowns, depending on the amount of condition builds present.

This is a variation of one of the most used balance D/D builds, this one being focused on pvp:

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-k33;2R0-U0-57N-Z0;9;59-TT;10;342A45A4o0;3qNnCrV2D0BV

- It has great – and I mean great – condition removal;
- It has great healing, including regeneration;
- It has great mobility and close to perma-swiftness;
- It has good survivability (due to the above); and
- It has decent burst when combined with fury and might stacking.

The build is excellent in small skirmisher battles and 1v1. Its not as easy to pratice for everyone as you have to be quick, a good aimer and swap atunements constantly. Otherwise you will be bursted down by thiefs and other burst classes.

Remember that you are still rather squishy (its not a bunker build) but its good because you have some offense without sacrificing too much defence. You can’t really go full offense on an ele, they are simply too squishy.

The typical combo looks like this:
Air) Ride the lightning, Updraft, Shocking aura
Fire) Burning speed, Ring of fire, Arcane Wave (Utility), Fire Grab and possibly Drake’s Breath.
Then go from there with possibly Earth) Earthquake and/or Churning earth (more might stacking). Including a dogde roll from fire or earth will grant you even more might stacking. You can easily reach 15+ stacks from the combo.

-

I am so tired of the so-called top players saying thiefs are not OP and its simply a matter of l2p. Just because YOU chose to be a bunker and made your fotm anti-burst build does not mean the problem is not there.

Now, lets see, whats makes a class overpowered (actually I don’t like the word in this context – lets call it unbalanced)? Its not the class itself, its the percetion of the players. Just the fact that there are sooo many posts about thiefs seem to indicate that something is wrong. Screw the 1% godlike, hardcore amazing players that can handle thiefs and every other thing thrown at them ingame. I say power to the people!

It is absolutely true that you can learn how to counter thiefs and perhaps build to counter thiefs. I would encourage you to practice and then practice some more and it will become better. One has to adapt to reality. It’s survival of the fittest. The paradox is that the best way in doing this is to join the thief profession. Its easier, hence the growth in numbers.

Having said this, there is something wrong, in my humbe opinion. Its annoying that certain classes can kill you in what feels like a flat second, unless you put a thick tin can over your head. Maybe its mostly relevant in hot join but it should, nevertheless, not be neglected (there are casual players out there).

There is a reason we primarily only see burst or bunker builds. The one extreme is countered by the other extreme. First came burst thiefs, then came bunkers. It is simple evolution but a poor example of if as it, being a game, eliminates variations, flexibility and viable builds and thereby encourages shallow one-dimensional playstyles.

“Ele bunkers are a bit too strong
Ele anything else is a bit too weak”

I completely agree with this statement. Bunkers are strong but boring. The real issue is that going offensive as an ele will result in being unproportionately squishy. The upside just doesn’t outweight the downside.

Nice guide so far, I have read some of your other threads and you seem to have done your homework. I have run a similar build for some time now, though sometimes going 10 points into earth for more defence instead of going full water (as I usually don’t have issues with conditions).

One question: Why do you use the healing signet over the glyph in spvp?

I tried both and I am not sure what is best. The upside of the glyph is that – in this buidl – it provides regen and thus provides an extra condition removal. Moreover, you are better able to sustain boons which benefit from the +2% dmg increase in water 25 (Bountyful Power). In addition, if you need a boost heal on the signet, it will loose the passive healing effect for 25 sec.

Been playing D/D ele myself a lot the last months. It is fun as hell but I feel like having to work harder to pull the same things off as other classes. Also, with such a low health pool eles are forced to go bunker or balanced builds thus reducing the damage significantly. There are only a few viablte builds (water/arcane line anyone?) Other classes can spec defensively but still hit harder than eles.

So no, I rather see buffs comming on the 15th Nobember… Though they might nerf the bunker build but i don’t care about that. It’s fine that the extremes are nerfed in both ends, if HOWEVER, they also buff the offensive part of the ele.