Probably shorten the duration of Moa Morph, this would at least shut the vocal minority up. Otherwise, we’ve been nerfed quite alot the past several patches (the Phantasm Build), not really sure anything else needs nerfing.
If they lower the duration, I would like the coold down lowered also then.
Otherwise, another useless ability.
You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.
You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.
Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?
what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?
what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?
what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?
what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?
in fact, did you even read my posts?
I did read it but I am choosing to ignore you from here due to you still not participating with the topic at hand and trying to cover the whole issue up with blanket statements that make your class look underpowered.
You are simply dancing around the mechanic of downed, which is, second chance. Thiefs can trivialize a stealth Finish Them! move every encounter, where other classes have to wait minutes to do it again.
i’m starting to think you ignored me from the beginning.
i never said thief was underpowered. thief would become underpowered, though, were ANet to listen to you and remove the only thing keeping thieves on a level playing field with other classes when stomping a downed player.
i’m contributing to the topic. i’m disagreeing with it, and that’s a contribution. i’m pointing out that were you to remove stealth from stomping, then every class in the game would have to lose stability, immunity, mist form, or whatever have you.
it’s not a thief thing. stealth trivializes downed state no more than save yourselves does. or are you going to say that Aegis and stability should also be removed when you’re stomping a player?
I know, I know, I said last post, but this needs to be addressed.
You can still target these poeple and ethier teleport away out of range of the Finish Them! if your class has that skill or what ever other skills you have use of.
Again, you cannot do this with a stealthed Thief for obvious reasons.
As I mentioned earlier, stealth/mist/etc need to be greyed out Finish Them! buttons until you remove yourself from that condition. Simple.
oh, and one last thing.
“Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways.” no they can’t. they spent all their resources taking you down (remember? thief has energy management and the pool is shared by both sets), so what little initiative he has left he’d rather save for the next battle than waste on a downed player, because no one likes being a sitting duck for 20 seconds in a PvP match.
just try playing a thief and see how long you fare by following all this handy advice you’re getting. pretend there’s no way to stealth yourself when stomping, try killing enemies by attacking them when they’re downed. see how you’ll watch that same enemy dance over your dead body instead.
Well, you must be the only thief who plays with a build that does not return iniative…….every pvp encounter I have been involved in regardless if it is sPvP or WvW, Thiefs almost always try to stealth Finish Them!, 1 person out of the picture is less people to deal with and if you can sneak in an Finish Them! move undetected, then people will do it, hell I will admit, even I have been known to do it on occasion.
This is my last post to you Bruno, so keep on drawing up those sceanrios that barely anyone uses.
You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.
You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.
Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?
what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?
what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?
what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?
what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?
in fact, did you even read my posts?
I did read it but I am choosing to ignore you from here due to you still not participating with the topic at hand and trying to cover the whole issue up with blanket statements that make your class look underpowered.
You are simply dancing around the mechanic of downed, which is, second chance. Thiefs can trivialize a stealth Finish Them! move every encounter, where other classes have to wait minutes to do it again.
Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.
There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.
Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.
You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)
really? i have yet to see that stability thief skill. the only one they have is dagger storm, and good luck stomping with that.
stealth still takes damage, stealth is still affected by AoE. thief has stealth. other classes have immunity to damage, or immunity to crowd control, which are both much stronger features to be used when stomping than stealth. an ele using mist form or armor of earth is much more likely to down you than a stealthed thief. a warrior with stability and endure pain, same thing. a guardian with AoE stability shout, same thing. and so on.
contrary to popular belief, being stealthed doesn’t mean you’re immortal. i seriously recommend anyone complaining about the thief to give it a serious shot. see if it’s all as easy as you think it is.
Other classes can buff other classes.
so what are you telling me is that the only way the thief should be able to stomp people like the other classes do is if someone else helps him?
yeah, great idea. everyone can pop instability or invulnerability, but the thief? HA, find someone to buff you instead.
and right back at ya: stealth can be countered by AoEs and knockbacks, unlike invul/stability. get some friends to help you.
please, PLEASE think before you complain. thief stealth is good at stomping lonely players that don’t have an AoE counter (like guardian’s) or an escape skill (like ele’s). meanwhile, other classes have skills that are better at stomping in every other possible scenario, including group fights, and are just as good as stealth against the specific example up there.
The issue is, you need a target to execute downed abilities. The whole mechanic behind downed is a chance at a second chance. This is removed and trivilized by stealth when you cannot target a target to execute skills to apply the mechanic of second chance.
tell me, what’s the difference between not being able to target, and being able to target and not do damage to it? i’ll tell you the difference. on the former, an AoE (like guardian downed 2) works. on the latter, it doesn’t.
so, for the 20th time: the thief’s ability to effectively stomp someone is WORSE than everyone else’s.
on PvP, you won’t down someone and then kill them during downed state. you have to keep the enemy from stomping you while your allies deal with him and you. and the thief’s only counter to “friends” is pretending he’s not really there. everyone else can just trigger superman mode and stomp you, not even a whole team of hammer guardians can do anything about it.
You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.
You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.
Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?
For what it’s worth, the “majority” that want more stats seem kind of out-numbered on the forums. Pretty loud, but outnumbered.
Adventure-based progression isn’t the same as a beneficial upgrade to a character. It’s an intangible increase in satisfaction upon reaching the plateau of content completion, whether it’s more content or just content that gets progressively more difficult as it’s/the more it’s done. There is no disruption in the playing field between those that are able/willing to progress at the fastest rate and those that are not able/willing to do so.
There’s honestly no “fluff” at all to this game as-is in my opinion. Real fluff is the grind that progressively unlocks more grind to do between reset timers that if you skip on, reduces your ability to progress at the same pace as your competitors. That this game doesn’t operate on a gear treadmill archetype means that perspective isn’t applicable to it or the rewards available in it. It’s a paradigm shift and needs to be looked at accordingly before terms like “fluff” get thrown around.
Fortunately for GW2, it’s not trying to follow the standard template and as of yet is following its own paradigm very successfully. The content release basis concern is valid enough but doesn’t seem to apply to this game so far. I kind of doubt Halloween and this new thing later this month were developed post-release of the game.
Again, wrong mentaility.
People who want progression out number the minority who want fluff. Stats is but mere form of progression and not the end-all-be-all form of it.
It just happens to be a hand full of people posting the same stuff in the same posts about the topic at hand that derail any attempt for more content in terms of character advancement and progression that makes it look bigger then what one would think.
Go through them posts and look at the same people posting over and over again versus the one of people having thier say and leaving, never to return.
Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.
There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.
Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.
You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)
really? i have yet to see that stability thief skill. the only one they have is dagger storm, and good luck stomping with that.
stealth still takes damage, stealth is still affected by AoE. thief has stealth. other classes have immunity to damage, or immunity to crowd control, which are both much stronger features to be used when stomping than stealth. an ele using mist form or armor of earth is much more likely to down you than a stealthed thief. a warrior with stability and endure pain, same thing. a guardian with AoE stability shout, same thing. and so on.
contrary to popular belief, being stealthed doesn’t mean you’re immortal. i seriously recommend anyone complaining about the thief to give it a serious shot. see if it’s all as easy as you think it is.
Other classes can buff other classes.
Again, your whole tone is way out of context and of topic.
The issue is, you need a target to execute downed abilities. The whole mechanic behind downed is a chance at a second chance. This is removed and trivilized by stealth when you cannot target a target to execute skills to apply the mechanic of second chance.
(edited by Taemek.1602)
LOL, had an army of 7 Thiefs just now running around as a team, decimating everything in thier path……yes it is a skewed example when stacking characters like this and doesn’t show a true result, however, try dealing with that and see how you go.
Quite funny to watch when they can successfully lock down 20+ people.
Yes, but this topic is about meaningful and beneficial character progression.
Actually its about overblown stats on gear according to what the OP was. :P
But that aside. The kind of progression your talking about is just bragging rights. If there was a way to bring anything to the game without improving stats and making one character more powerful than another then we would be onto something. But with the current idea’s poping up on this thread its just a i want to be more powerful than x. Currently put someone in max level exotics and set them loose the difference isent gear level its raw skill. But make these changes and all of a sudden those horrible players with 12 hours a day to play will now out play the super skilled players that work all day long then come home to there family and may be able to spend at max 2-4 hours on the game if there lucky.
All that said there’s some really intelligent people debating in this thread. We should be able to come up with something other than we need more stats.
Unfortunately, the standard template that MMORPG’s have always followed is, you get rewarded for your time spent playing and that involves upgrading your character in some form or gear upgrades.
If you take away that ability to beneficially upgrade or advance your character to be better and better all the time, the game grows old, real quick and people find it bland with no progression.
Yes, some people like content progression regardless how it is implement ethier by stats or content you progress through. Some like simple things like skins, however, the majority want stat or adventure based progression and farming skins or fluff material is something people do in thier own time when waiting for friends or guildies to log in. It is more something to fill time.
At the end of the day, the people that want true, meaningful and beneficial progression, regardless how it is implemented, outweigh those who just want more simple things in life like, skins.
Another issue with the MMORPG genre today is, if constant content is not released on at least a 6 month basis, people tend to start leaving a game in droves. This puts most gaming companies in a postion where they have to use massive advertising campaigns to get them back, give them something to return, bonuses, more fluff stuff that is usaully beneficial for them just enough to return. Even then, these same people tend to only come back for a month or 2, maybe 3. Then they are off again, searching for another game or game hopping.
To me, (been gaming for the best part of almost 20 years now, yes, old) a successful gaming company already has thier 3, 6 and 9 month content pacthes ready to go upon release of the game. This gives them time to work on a big expasion coming into the 12 month period and keeps everyone fresh, excited and willing to stay to see whats going on and what is around the corner.
(edited by Taemek.1602)
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it.
That quote is from the OP first paragraph. Its pretty obvious that its gear progression he wants. He clearly does not care about anything other than stats.
I would rather see a different form of character progression tbh.
They already have it in place to certain extent. We keep gaining xp even when 80 and we can buy every Skill point based ability there is.
Why not in a future expasion consider another form of character progression in the form of alternative advancement like other games have done in the past. EQ1 and 2 had a similiar system. There is other games with less drawn out versions of it and more casual.
It doesn’t matter if you are a casual player or a hard core player, with a Alternative Advancement system, your character is always progressing one way or another and doesn’t require a gear grind.
This way they can still add new content, without the mudflation of gear upgrades and still put character requirement flags in there so they have a meaningful and beneficial reason behind doing it.
This adds even more emphasis on doing old content, new content and participating in dynamic events, it gives a beneficial meaning to XP gain, all the time.
Its already in the game. They are called traits.
No, that is your standard characters leveling system, once you hit 80, it ends. I am talking about something that resembles how we can still currently buy Skill points.
A system like this would last years before any kind of gear upgrade would be needed.
The type of system your referring to im quite familar with and could infact be fully filled before you hit or as you hit max level in eq2. It enhanced your skill’s. That is no different than the trait system. As for gear theres no reason gear would ever need to be upgraded. To be honest though adding a secondary system on top of everything would seriously break content as currently a lot of people feel content is to easy.
Now im not saying its not a good idea, it is and works well in other games, but its not needed when we have traits (aa in other games) and honestly would be waisted here. People keep pointing to things that make there characters more powerful which would start the whole power/gear treadmill which like the aa honestly has no spot in this game given its fundamentally designed against those design elements.
Most peoples arguments for no gear grind is that not everyone has access to it or gets to experience that part of the content.
Alternative Advancment, regardless if you are casual or hardcore, everyone gets to participate in it from just doing the content in game, dungeons, dynamic events, going back to lower end content etc etc.
As it is atm, once you have all your skills bought, level 80, XP is meaningless, yet we still aquire it with everything we do.
It needs to be put to use for further character advancement.
Its actually used for the mystic forge. If you use it a lot it can eat threw massive amounts of skill points.
Which serves no purpose when you have the top end gear.
Theres always use for the mf. Just because you see no point does not mean its not there. So what if you have top end gear. Can alway sell the items or bank them or go for really rare skins. That is the reason you still get xp. Its to give you access to such stuff.
Yes, but this topic is about meaningful and beneficial character progression.
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it.
That quote is from the OP first paragraph. Its pretty obvious that its gear progression he wants. He clearly does not care about anything other than stats.
I would rather see a different form of character progression tbh.
They already have it in place to certain extent. We keep gaining xp even when 80 and we can buy every Skill point based ability there is.
Why not in a future expasion consider another form of character progression in the form of alternative advancement like other games have done in the past. EQ1 and 2 had a similiar system. There is other games with less drawn out versions of it and more casual.
It doesn’t matter if you are a casual player or a hard core player, with a Alternative Advancement system, your character is always progressing one way or another and doesn’t require a gear grind.
This way they can still add new content, without the mudflation of gear upgrades and still put character requirement flags in there so they have a meaningful and beneficial reason behind doing it.
This adds even more emphasis on doing old content, new content and participating in dynamic events, it gives a beneficial meaning to XP gain, all the time.
Its already in the game. They are called traits.
No, that is your standard characters leveling system, once you hit 80, it ends. I am talking about something that resembles how we can still currently buy Skill points.
A system like this would last years before any kind of gear upgrade would be needed.
The type of system your referring to im quite familar with and could infact be fully filled before you hit or as you hit max level in eq2. It enhanced your skill’s. That is no different than the trait system. As for gear theres no reason gear would ever need to be upgraded. To be honest though adding a secondary system on top of everything would seriously break content as currently a lot of people feel content is to easy.
Now im not saying its not a good idea, it is and works well in other games, but its not needed when we have traits (aa in other games) and honestly would be waisted here. People keep pointing to things that make there characters more powerful which would start the whole power/gear treadmill which like the aa honestly has no spot in this game given its fundamentally designed against those design elements.
Most peoples arguments for no gear grind is that not everyone has access to it or gets to experience that part of the content.
Alternative Advancment, regardless if you are casual or hardcore, everyone gets to participate in it from just doing the content in game, dungeons, dynamic events, going back to lower end content etc etc.
As it is atm, once you have all your skills bought, level 80, XP is meaningless, yet we still aquire it with everything we do.
It needs to be put to use for further character advancement.
Its actually used for the mystic forge. If you use it a lot it can eat threw massive amounts of skill points.
Which serves no purpose when you have the top end gear.
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it.
That quote is from the OP first paragraph. Its pretty obvious that its gear progression he wants. He clearly does not care about anything other than stats.
I would rather see a different form of character progression tbh.
They already have it in place to certain extent. We keep gaining xp even when 80 and we can buy every Skill point based ability there is.
Why not in a future expasion consider another form of character progression in the form of alternative advancement like other games have done in the past. EQ1 and 2 had a similiar system. There is other games with less drawn out versions of it and more casual.
It doesn’t matter if you are a casual player or a hard core player, with a Alternative Advancement system, your character is always progressing one way or another and doesn’t require a gear grind.
This way they can still add new content, without the mudflation of gear upgrades and still put character requirement flags in there so they have a meaningful and beneficial reason behind doing it.
This adds even more emphasis on doing old content, new content and participating in dynamic events, it gives a beneficial meaning to XP gain, all the time.
Its already in the game. They are called traits.
No, that is your standard characters leveling system, once you hit 80, it ends. I am talking about something that resembles how we can still currently buy Skill points.
A system like this would last years before any kind of gear upgrade would be needed.
The type of system your referring to im quite familar with and could infact be fully filled before you hit or as you hit max level in eq2. It enhanced your skill’s. That is no different than the trait system. As for gear theres no reason gear would ever need to be upgraded. To be honest though adding a secondary system on top of everything would seriously break content as currently a lot of people feel content is to easy.
Now im not saying its not a good idea, it is and works well in other games, but its not needed when we have traits (aa in other games) and honestly would be waisted here. People keep pointing to things that make there characters more powerful which would start the whole power/gear treadmill which like the aa honestly has no spot in this game given its fundamentally designed against those design elements.
Most peoples arguments for no gear grind is that not everyone has access to it or gets to experience that part of the content.
Alternative Advancment, regardless if you are casual or hardcore, everyone gets to participate in it from just doing the content in game, dungeons, dynamic events, going back to lower end content etc etc.
As it is atm, once you have all your skills bought, level 80, XP is meaningless, yet we still aquire it with everything we do.
It needs to be put to use for further character advancement.
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it.
That quote is from the OP first paragraph. Its pretty obvious that its gear progression he wants. He clearly does not care about anything other than stats.
I would rather see a different form of character progression tbh.
They already have it in place to certain extent. We keep gaining xp even when 80 and we can buy every Skill point based ability there is.
Why not in a future expasion consider another form of character progression in the form of alternative advancement like other games have done in the past. EQ1 and 2 had a similiar system. There is other games with less drawn out versions of it and more casual.
It doesn’t matter if you are a casual player or a hard core player, with a Alternative Advancement system, your character is always progressing one way or another and doesn’t require a gear grind.
This way they can still add new content, without the mudflation of gear upgrades and still put character requirement flags in there so they have a meaningful and beneficial reason behind doing it.
This adds even more emphasis on doing old content, new content and participating in dynamic events, it gives a beneficial meaning to XP gain, all the time.
Its already in the game. They are called traits.
No, that is your standard characters leveling system, once you hit 80, it ends. I am talking about something that resembles how we can still currently buy Skill points.
A system like this would last years before any kind of gear upgrade would be needed.
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it.
That quote is from the OP first paragraph. Its pretty obvious that its gear progression he wants. He clearly does not care about anything other than stats.
I would rather see a different form of character progression tbh.
They already have it in place to certain extent. We keep gaining xp even when 80 and we can buy every Skill point based ability there is.
Why not in a future expasion consider another form of character progression in the form of alternative advancement like other games have done in the past. EQ1 and 2 had a similiar system. There is other games with less drawn out versions of it and more casual.
It doesn’t matter if you are a casual player or a hard core player, with a Alternative Advancement system, your character is always progressing one way or another and doesn’t require a gear grind.
This way they can still add new content, without the mudflation of gear upgrades and still put character requirement flags in there so they have a meaningful and beneficial reason behind doing it.
This adds even more emphasis on doing old content, new content and participating in dynamic events, it gives a beneficial meaning to XP gain, all the time.
(edited by Taemek.1602)
Since the general theme here seems to be “give the downed player a real second chance”, maybe when trying to finish a downed player stealth/mist form/etc is dropped for the target of Finish Them! only.
So the downed player gets to target the finisher and try their downed skills on them, but they can’t announce them as a target and no one else can see/target the finisher any differently.
I agree to a certain extent.
In my opinion, I think that Finish Them! moves just shoud be greyed out when in stealth/mist/etc form and only light up for use when not in it.
Pretty simple fix imho.
I think the what the OP means is that he wants ‘dungeon progression’ and not ‘gear progression’.
^ This.
As We stated earlier. Content progression can be implemented in many forms. It does not have to revovle around a stat beneficial increment. Anyone who thinks this is living in the past.
I don’t get it. GW1 had a similar system except you got max armor well before you even touched the “endgame,” and I don’t recall anybody ever complaining about it.
^ This, which people keep on avoiding.
Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.
There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.
Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.
You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)
Removing Quickness and Stealth from finishing opponents would completely unbalance Thief. Thieves CAN’T finish people reliably without those abilities. We are extremely squishy, and we have a hard time finishing people if they have teammates around even with these tools. If you took them away, then Thieves would not be able to finish people after downing them, which would not be balanced.
Moot argument.
If you can down a player from stealth before they can react to it, they are even squsiher then you.
This is besides the point anyway, the whole point here is, you cannot execute any skills while downed when the Thief is stealthed, you cannot even trigger your knockbacks if you have them or your teleports. ALL of these skills require a target and even if you have them as AoE’s, Quickness + Finish Them! triggers before the cast bar completes.
Most people with half a brain will agree, we can live with the fact that Thiefs can burst someone into a downed state from Stealth, being able to stealth up right after and Finish Them! is just over board.
oh look, it’s more thief QQ again.
sigh
When most of the games QQ revolves one class, ever wondered why?
And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.
If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.Does this mean you will quit when they add an expasion in the game?
And here’s the “other MMO” mentality. Why does an expansion need to raise the cap on anything? How long did GW1 run for and how many times did the level cap or gear stat cap go up with content updates or expansions?
Let’s look at it this way. The Elder Dragons are supposed to be our Huge Threat in this game (hints of a Source that would clearly be the Final Encounter type deal, but that’s beside the point as of yet). The players can already fight against two of them. Are the others substantially more powerful with no explanation?
How much content was added to the game over that same amount of time?
The only skill you can use without a target while downed is your heal and guess what, no use to you on a Stealthed Finish move.
Nurvus, ^.
Healing yourself isn’t useful against anyone doing a finisher unless you’re really kitten close to rallying already. Just sayin’.
Not the point, but ok.
you can use skills, you just dont see the target, bad thieves will badly position themself, use that to your advantage.
its the same(well not exactly the same, but similiar) as in normal state, you cannot see the thief but you sure as hell can hit him with your aoe and even normal single target skills
Negative, red bold writing splashes across the screen telling you, no target, cannot use blah blah blah.
The only skill you can use without a target while downed is your heal and guess what, no use to you on a Stealthed Finish move.
Nurvus, ^.
And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.
If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.
Does this mean you will quit when they add an expasion in the game?
Once level progression stops, something has to take its place.
Not sure I agree with you there, sport.
Why does there have to be progression of any kind? Just because it’s an MMO and that’s the way every other MMO does it?
We’re playing a game that’s trying to break out of that mould.
Let’s look at some of the most successful games of all time:
Streetfighter 2
Super Mario World
Sonic the Hedgehog
Minecraft
PortalIn all of those games, there is no “levelling”, no “stat progression”, you are the exact same character at the very end of the game as you are at the start. No matter how many hours you put in, you still have the same skills and abilities.
In many ways, GW2 is like this. Yes, there is a bit of progression at the start, but eventually you hit the plateau. You’re level 80, with full exotics and all skills unlocked, your character is as powerful as it’s ever going to be.
To me, that’s not the end of the game, that’s the start.
Wrong genre and platform types, nothing to do with the topic at hand I am afraid.
Also, just to pull your example back on topic, almost all them games in todays genre, have some type of character progression.
K. So how do you reward progression at 80 without making gear better? It’s a kitten good question. It’s the main flaw of a level-based system, no matter how transparent A-Net wants to make the levels (by having systems such as scaling). Once level progression stops, something has to take its place. Crafting progression? For some characters, sure. But some have been leveling their professions since the start, so it’s not a guaranteed span like 1-80. Exploration progression? It certainly provides an incentive to revisit some low level areas, but the problem is those who have been exploring on their way to 80. Once they hit max level, they’ll probably only need 2-3 more zones to get “Been there. Done that.” That provides, oh, roughly 10 hours of content, if you rush. Legendaries? Yeah, that’s the main grind here. But one logically asks: “If they’re willing to have unique, epic weapons that take a lot of Karma/Gold/Work to obtain, why can’t they do that with armor?” Is it a bad question? Is it so bad if we have epic armors that, like Legendaries, aren’t SUPER AMAZING 200% BETTER than exotics, but that still look amazing?
The fact is, some people already see Legendaries as pointless because they’re not that much better than exotics. If you’re going to have a system where a person must work very hard for something, they have to feel rewarded at the end. Some people feel rewarded with a cool skin and custom animations. Most people feel rewarded with something more substantial, like better stats or perhaps a skill that is usable only by that Legendary (weapon special attack).
If you don’t want a gear grind – in terms of tiered progression that gate future content – that’s understandable. I don’t really want that, either. But cosmetic progression, while suitable to some, is utterly meaningless to others. Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.
Sad thing is, people seem to forget that even GW1 had gear progression.
Every game has some type of gear progression in it or grind of some sort. Take that away and you have a small player base to sell a game too.
Cash based games need large numbers and besides, trying to compare GW1 to GW2 is moot because GW1 is based of a older time in the MMORPG genre. Times have changed and what people have come to expect from games have changed also.
Look at how many games have failed or have extremelly low populations now because they have failed at trying to stick to a older template or even failed at trying something new.
The best thing Anet can do here is, appease to both sides of the fence.
taemek i never said thief doesn’t benefit from stability and that he can never get knocked back while stomping.
But if you get downed by a thief and he recieves stability from guardian for example, then he is a fool to even waste initiative on stealth since he can stomp you without it.
Why are just going in circles now. Stealth stomping isn’t a problem because there are more reliable ways to get a stomp off. The only thing devs need to look at is quickened stomps, and if they see fit they should change it. simple as that
The issue with Stealth stomping is the fact that you cannot execute any downed state abilities.
No target, no skill usage.
Stealth is easily replenished and in most cases, depending on spec, almost limitless.
Dont think thieves can 1shot you anymore with the recent Assassin signet nerf but stealth finishers are a little unfair (I play thief and I notice it)
Learn the new build.
You are downed instantly from stealth, you get one maybe two downed abilities off, Thief invis → dead.
I disagree with this thread.
The OP is being very biased.Most professions have Quickness.
Those that don’t, usually have great AoE and kill 2 and 3 players at the same time -_-
Most professions have some form of damage reduction/prevention, such as mist form, endure pain, obsidian flesh, stealth, aegis/protection, stability.If the Thief spends Stealth AND Quickness just to finish you off, then he absolutely deserves to finish you off.
How about you think of all the other possibilties that don’t involve the Thief using his own cool downs and getting the benefit from someone else/consumables/item procs.
@iruwen
I dont have much spvp experience (around 100 games played since i got the game 2 weeks ago) but lot of times when i got downed, my teammates came to me, used their aoe interrupts and knockdowns and simply revived me. While i’m on my p/d thief, i got knocked down so many times while i tried to stomp from stealth it’s not even funny.
The thing is, stealth stomping has its counters, its just that you are requried to be out of zergy mentality that 95% of spvp players seem to be stuck in, including you
One word, stability.
it really is a strong feature of thief profession, but other professions can get same results with stability, and eles can do it with mistform, so i wouldn’t say its unbalanced.
Have you tried using aoe knockbacks and ressing downed player? Not every profession has that but i dont think this game is balanced around 1v1.
How would you guys deal with it? simply remove “finish them” button while thief is stealthed or…?
Thief can also benefit from stability including all the above.
Character progression improvement = content.
Content sells, not fluff.
In that case then, Player Housing, Mini-Games, Holiday Events, Jumping Puzzles, World Boss Fights ect aren’t content, but fluff? Since they don’t offer character improvement.
Content = stuff to do. Not character progression.
No, you are taking it out of context. If any of those things are beneficial to a players ability to progress ones character, then no, it is not fluff.
Events, Puzzles, Boss fights all these things give achievement points, points that get used to progress your guild which in turn is then used to progress your character in PvP or PvE. See the trend here? Progress. Beneficial progression.
As more and more people hit 80 and realize there is no real endgame content, they will leave after a few weeks and more and more threads about this issue are being made on a weekly basis now. It started off with a minority amount of players vocally displaying thier issues with it a month or so ago and they got shut down with a bunch of dribble, now, more and more of the community is feeling it.
And how is that the games fault? Right from the beginning ANet stated there would be no gear progression, and that it’d follow the same model as GW1 which was hunting for skins and refining your build.
As for your ‘no real endgame content’ comment, define real endgame content?
Raids? Gear Progression? Because that’s the only thing missing at cap that’s in other games. Because, you know, they did say these wouldn’t be in there. It’s hardly ANet’s fault that people need bigger numbers as an incentive to play.
Constant character progression = endgame content. it has nothing to do with numbers, adventure is a form of progression in of itself, it is a pity you lack the imagination and live inside a square box and have to resort to thinking it is about something as trivial as numbers.
Draw a picture around that however you like.
That’s not progress. Progress means that you progressed from one point to the second and you improved along the way. Cosmetic change is not an improvement.
If I started out with a look I didn’t like, and worked to get a look I did like (i.e. improvement), I’d say that progress. If I had one look I liked and then branched out to create multiple looks I liked, that’s also progress. It’s just more personal to me.
Progress doesn’t just have to be numbers going bigger.
There is a difference to beneficial improvement and non-beneficial improvment.
Skin improvement = fluff.
Character progression improvement = content.
Content sells, not fluff.
As more and more people hit 80 and realize there is no real endgame content, they will leave after a few weeks and more and more threads about this issue are being made on a weekly basis now. It started off with a minority amount of players vocally displaying thier issues with it a month or so ago and they got shut down with a bunch of dribble, now, more and more of the community is feeling it.
(edited by Taemek.1602)
Being Stealth and using this to finish people needs to go.
Couple this with Quickness (Doubles the speed execution of skills, including Finish Them!) = Impossible to deal with.
I can deal with the OP nature of a Thief being able to virtually one shot you from Stealth with a combination of moves that can be triggered in 1 second, but being able to Stealth and Finish Them!………please review this.
The problem with trying to recruit Oceanic/Asia players is they have no incentive.
I don’t think they really care about the US prime time being excellent. Most are looking for people to play with within their time zone. Seeing as there is far few Oceanic/Asia players than US/NA ones. They’re are going to flock to the unofficial Oceanic/Asia servers.
In other words. They’re not going to come to you. You have to go to them.
It’s not the incentive issue thats the problem, Oceanic players in general seem more lazy in my experience. They also are renowed to be guild hoppers.
I have run my guild in many games now, and the attitude of the Oceanic playerbase is just very casual and care free. It is also a population issue, where European and American player bases having literally millions uppon millions of players, the chances of finding long term players who care about being in a guild and being part of that guilds community is alot easier due to sheer numbers.
It has been an issue for Oceanic guilds for the best part of 10 years to keep them active, I don’t see the issue going away anytime soon unless we can inject another 100+ million people here somehow.
Boat people?
It simply should just be a directive application to the team which is underpopulated until some what balanced.
Level 1, 2 and 3 is based on how underpopulated it is.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Orbs-will-be-removed-from-WvW-in-an-upcoming-build
Nice of them to listen.
Good job Anet, on the right track.
It is a genral flaw we have.
Phantasem.
They do a kitten load of dmg IF you can get some out and keep them alive. If not they are less usfull a water drop in the desert. It is just sad that the two main mechanics of our class ( shatters and Illussions) contradict each other most of the time.
But it is also quit hard to work around it with out reworking the classes mechanics. Because both can work a shatter build and an build based on Illussion as long as the enemy is so kind and does not use AoE. Which all classes do .
^This.
Plus the issue with being out of range when casting illusions only for them to go on cool down and no illuions is cast….
Also, what I hate is, people who are out of range and you try to cast a phantasm/clone thinking they are just in range, cool down applied and no clone/phantasm is casted.
Its still possible to aoe a hidden thef, way cant the classes stay unique way would you want to render them useless becuse you dont play them? balancing is one thing and changing the character of a class is anoter.
Making stealth permanent takes nothing away from the class, at all…….
I come onto these forums looking for decent chatter about WvW, not to see person after person beat down on a server based on the few things they were told. The past two match ups have been just as unfair to us as to the servers we are facing. This is unfortunate side effect of having an immature ranking system paired alongside mass player movement among servers.
Blackgate doesn’t want to be stomping servers week by week. That’s not fun for either party. We have around the clock coverage because we want to fight with the best or force others to up their game. We want a competition at the top. And above all else we want other servers nipping at our rear from T2.
Everyone is so hard headed and thinks Blackgate will continue to stomp.
Here’s what I have to say: We don’t even know if we can face the current best because we haven’t faced the current best in our current state. Watch next week’s match up closely. If it’s too one sided in either direction things will certainly change overnight regardless of the server.
If you want to continue hate continue the book burning below. If you want to make crude comebacks, now is the time.
However, if you want to make serious talk about the future of competitive WvW please comment below and I will thank you for being mature and trying to aide the community.
Thanks,
Irony -A concerned Blackgate Denizen
Your name and the context of this post go hand in hand.
Needs to be applied to the side directly that is outnumbered……….
The winning side should not have, static bonuses that effect the entire server plus this buff……..
3 stacks + outnumbered……..how is the underdog suppose to get a leg up?
They ninja nerfed Warlocks dmg output also, my dmg has decreased considerably with it…..gg anet.
The only people at fault for what has happened to Blackgate is Arena Net.
If you need to vent then vent at Arena Net. They have allowed these absurd transfers to continue for 2 MONTHS!
If everybody made a big enough stink about this then maybe, just maybe we would see them turn of the free transfers at last.
I do agree though my guild came to Blackgate a while back from JQ because it had a good rep, because there was no queues and because they actually had some good matches going. This experience has now in ruins. Again its not the guilds who transferred fault, its Arena Nets problem that they created through lack of foresight.
It is pretty clear imho, they just don’t care.
Game is on a downward spiral anyways and most the PvP orientated people will jump ship in Novemeber with the new Darkfall game is released, then WvW will be even worse.
What a jokey nerf, they nerf a class that needs little to no nerfing and let classes like Thiefs run riot on the community in PvP.
They can’t fix WvW for crap, hacks that allow players to teleport and transfers is STILL allowed and about to take a turn for the worst when the zerg transfers from Blackgate to another server to avoid being put in Tier 1…..
This game is dying, real quick and yet they still expect us to buy Gems…..
It would be a buff but it would be broken from the get go. Look at illusions as a warriors adrenaline. Do you think it would be fair for them to start a fight charged and ready to burst, because they can’t build it against a thief who is hiding? That’s what having illusions out means to a Mesmer.
For starters, Illusions can die before they get to a target to aoe’s and single target damage.
Secondly, clones and phantasms won’t chase a target indefiantely until they hit them, they only chase for roughly around 3 – 4 seconds and explode on the spot, so all one has to do is kite the illusions off, then attack us.
Then the problem would be you will see every Mesmer running around with all 3 phantasms always spawned around them, it would be make it unfair, for say, the same Thief, to engage because you will have all the clones up already. They could make it so we could only spawn them when in combat, but I don’t see that happening either – because right now you can spawn them out of combat as long as the target gets into range, which is the way I prefer.
In conclusion, I think it’s fine right now as it is.
So its ok for a Necro to run around with 10 pets up, but not a Mesmer with 3 clones or Phantasms?
Also, you can’t spawn them if you cannot target the target but, you can die to it…..makes no sense.
(edited by Taemek.1602)
@alanis,
If thats the case, then I want ALL ground based AoE not be able to be cast down from the Wall and up the wall…..
Fair is fair.
Please remove the requirement for a target to be present to execute these skills. Also, what I hate is, people who are out of range and you try to cast a phantasm/clone thinking they are just in range, cool down gets applied and no clone/phantasm is casted.
It is more then extremelly frustrating trying to fight a Thief like this.
Just make them stand there until we take damage, upon taking damage, the first source of damage is targeted by the clones/phantams, then when they die, we can target our own targets.
Alternatively, give us some control over them, like combine the above with not having them do anything until we attack a target which they then also engauge upon our target.
(edited by Taemek.1602)