Guild Wars 2

marelooke.9708:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Cyninja.2954:

My advice: get used to using the LFG feature in this game.

Good advice for us all, regardless of which metas we love or hate, which story instance we can master.

1. Go to DS way on time
2. Get in a good squad through LFG
2. Dragon blasts everyone off the map
3. You get dumped along with a few others in empty instances away from your initial squad
4. Can’t rejoin the instance of the squad you were in the same instance with seconds before, because full
5. Game over, wait another two hours and try the slot machine again

I’ve done dragon stand dozens of times. This has literally never happened to me, not even once.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The probably is the most casual players tend to solo and not even look at websites, and so those people will never answer.

Those who didn’t buy Heart of Thorns and don’t look at websites, were already lost causes. After all, if they don’t even look at websites how in the world will they learn if heart of thorns is the game for them or not? They’d base buying or not on their current core game experience not on some expansion info that according to you they wouldn’t look at.

I think the problem isn’t just people not buying HoT, but buying hot and basically avoiding hot content after they got what they needed from it.

That’s for a completely thread then and kind of irrelevant here.

I don’t get this comment at all. You think most people research before they buy stuff? I worked in computer retail and I can tell you most people don’t. In fact, a good percentage of games are sold by someone else getting a game and just telling someone else that they liked it. Oh man you got to get this game. Or going to someone’s house.

But the biggest number of people that own Guild Wars 2 and play it would almost automatically buy an expansion if they like the game. I never played a game I liked and didn’t buy the expansion. That’s juts not how people play games….for the most part.

If they didn’t follow social media sites and forums, then they didn’t know about the bad publicity and they bought HoT.

At the time HoT launched, I had a guild of 200 players, and I don’t think any of htem bought HoT, but I’m sure well over 150 of them never set foot in the forums or reddit. They bought hot because they were playing a game and that’s just what you do.

The amount of “informed consumers” in any arena is surprising low.

Even if you soloed and didn’t join a guild, the hot ad came up in game. How would they know? They wouldn’t. They’d just go buy the expansion.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Vayne.8563:

April fool’s day is apparently lost on some people.

You might want to take a closer look at the image I attached.

Never post before your first coffee. That’ll show me.

Jenstone.6891:

Amazon has shills? but I like Amazon…

How much did they pay you to say that?

Swagger.1459:

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in happiness, and were suddenly silenced upon opening this thread…

Brilliant as usual. Also made me spit coffee all over my monitor, so thanks for that. lol

Blude.6812:

Australia, too close to the date line. A little time before its the 1st here
.

Yeah, I didn’t think of that, I just looked at the calendar and posted. Oh well. lol

Imagine my surprise when I found out that Amazon pays their shills more.

Happy April Fools Day everyone!

April fool’s day is apparently lost on some people.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

Calling it a penalty box is really confusing to me because it implies you eventually get to leave it and rejoin the game.

Hmmn. It doesn’t imply that to me. In any case, it’s a community nickname; the developers didn’t actually call it anything. (I’ve referred to it as being in a “time out”.)

Arguably, you do get to rejoin, but only after the fight is over.

Actually I think the term was first used by a developer, who described it pre HoT in one of the interviews. He was bragging about it with regards to challenge. Don’t ask me to find it now though.

Actually I see the purpose of this thread. This is a guy who likes raids who’s being consistently told that the reason the game isn’t doing/selling as well as it did is because of raids, or at least harder core content.

He’s trying to ascertain on the forums if this really had a major affect on the game.

The probably is the most casual players tend to solo and not even look at websites, and so those people will never answer.

I think the problem isn’t just people not buying HoT, but buying hot and basically avoiding hot content after they got what they needed from it.

Gibson.4036:

Vayne.8563:

And I’m a guy that puts up with a lot of change before I move. I promise you there are a lot of people who walked away from the game because it’s become less casual than it was…probably more people than people who are raiding now…in my opinion.

Wow.

It’s been months since I checked in on the GW2 forum. I was a vocal GW2 advocate from before launch through the introduction of ascended gear. I hung on for quite a while after that, playing the game and participating frequently here on the forums. I loved the goals the developers said they had for the game, and the foundation they build in the game’s early months.

Shortly after HoT was released I found myself playing less and less, feeling that the expansion wasn’t really my thing and therefore failing to justify its cost. By the time the cost had dropped down to what I was willing to play, I’d missed logging in for LS updates, which means more cost to catch back up with the story, effectively sealing my departure from GW2.

On a lark, today, I popped back by the forums to see what the community is saying about the game.

To see Vayne, stalwart optimist and long time apologist for ArenaNet, thinking about whether it’s time to move on… I guess it’s something I never thought I’d see.

In my personal opinion, the answer to the thread title is not only, “Yes”, but probably “Repeatedly”. The initial vision presented for this game was bold and clear. I think it could have become a great niche game, the “MMO for people who hate MMOs”. It appeared to me that ArenaNet was surprised by the success of launch, then surprised by the player falloff shortly after. Instead of staying true to the original vision and keeping the core audience that agreed with it, they repeatedly adjusted the vision to try and capture back the rest of that audience that came and tried the game.

My history with GW2 felt like riding a ship with a captain who kept wildly changing destinations every six months or so.

I should point out, I loved the HOT content, besides raids and what has been done with PvP, but the open world HoT content is my favorite open world content in the game. I love the complexity of the zones. I even liked the story (even though I know a lot of people didn’t). But to me, half the stories were in the zones, not just in the instances, and a lot of people didn’t seem to pay attention.

I’m not thinking about leaving the game. I’m not close to leaving the game. I’m saying that I’m not happy with decisions that are being made and that I feel like the game is less mine than it used to be. If it continues long term, I probably will consider leaving, but I’m nowhere near that now.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

Putting you in a place where you can see everything and not participate feels bad.

I far prefer that to what often happened during a dungeon boss fight: I couldn’t participate and I couldn’t see everything. In particular, for this fight, it helped me to learn the mechanics, since I could actually see how the fight was progressing.

I’d have no problem if ANet removed the mechanic from this fight and I hope they never do anything like this again for another story instance.

All the same: not everyone thinks it’s a bad thing, i.e. it only feels bad for some people.

Even though I know the fight well, I can die due to lag sometimes, being in Tasmania. I don’t really need to see the fight anymore. Early on it was useful I agree.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Is it much different than being defeated where there is no rezzing (like in Dungeons, I think)? Except that you can move around in the ‘box’?

I don’t know…it reminded me of Guild Wars (except no ‘click on Party Member to watch the action’).

Perhaps, with all the feedback, there won’t be a ‘penalty box’, anymore, just laying where one falls (maybe with the option to be rezzed, maybe not). /shrug

You can rezz people in dungeons. You can even rez people in combat in dungeons. You can’t waypoint in dungeons to the waypoint unless the entire party is out of combat, but once the party is out of combat, you can waypoint.

Being dead and staying down there would give people a chance to try to rez you, or even allow you to use a revive orb (which you can do in dungeons as well).

Putting you in a place where you can see everything and not participate feels bad.

Rasimir.6239:

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

It was also always clear that ArenaNet wants optional content for organised groups that can’t be cleared with your average PUG.

Then let it stay truly optional. Do not try to use incentives to pull into raids people that do not like that gamemode.

This keeps being repeated, but there’s one question I have: How do you propose to encourage the vast number of middle ground people that just need a little incentive to enjoy the gamemode to play it without also giving incentive to those that don’t have the willpower to resist temptation to play stuff they don’t enjoy?

This is a great question and it’s not an easy answer. The problem is MMOs become addictive and people play them to get “more”. At least some people do. People who want more, are going to gravitate to the “best” stuff in the game.

You can’t provide a great reward for something that doesn’t attract people, whether they like that content or not. PvP last season was the perfect example. The game offered ascended gear so cheaply, PvP was popping, but it wasn’t popping with people who necessarily liked PvP.

I talked with more than one person who didn’t like it, but did it just to get that reward, in spite of the fact they knew they sucked at PvP and didn’t want to do it. Those people cost other people on their side games, because they didn’t really care about playing. They cared about the reward. That’s part of the issue with giving out the best rewards somewhere. You’ll get people who screw over other people.

Now if you give out the best rewards in an area people don’t like or can’t do because they just aren’t good enough (or their connection to the net isn’t good enough, or their computer isn’t good enough), you end up with people who try it, then give up and then , seeing no other path to the goodies they crave, want those things even more.

I can’t have pizza because it raises my blood sugar too high. I don’t even particularly like pizza, and never wanted it, until I couldn’t have it. Suddenly it became something I wanted. That’s human nature. Games prey on this kind of thing.

Which is the problem. The game makes us crave certain rewards, and then provides ONE PATH to that reward, that some people will hate, or be unable to do. Those people will want that reward more because their perception is they can’t have it. The more it’s out of their reach, the more some people will want it.

So the question is always where do you draw that line? Why can’t people just enjoy what they want to enjoy and earn rewards, rather than the game dictating to them what they have to do. It’s been a complaint from the beginning and I’ve always agreed with it.

The more the game “encourages” people into content that they don’t enjoy, the more chance that people will be dissatisfied with the game. Only a certain number of people are going to keep banging away at stuff they don’t like to get the shiny.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Raids influence things outside of raids. They don’t exist in a bubble and though I can ignore them, saying that they don’t affect anything else is demonstrably not true.

Of course they do. And PVP influences PVE as well and has always been, while PVE is affecting WvW. But how are those changes that were a result of Raids made your experience in general PVE worse? How did those changes negatively altered your game play?

Well, I actually believe I’d have enjoyed a different elite spec for the ranger more, and I’m pretty sure raiding is the reason I got that. My main was a ranger, but now I’ve switched more to mesmer, because I like the chronomancer better, But I’d definitely rather had a higher dps option, or a non-pet option available for the ranger than what we got.

I don’t love the harder fractals either. I do them, but I do them less.

And there’s no way to tell how many other things were influenced by raids that I haven’t noticed.

Once the game starts getting more hard core, it attracts more hard core players, who loudly voice a desire for something I’m not interest in.

Once that process starts, it’s not so easy to reverse, or even slow down.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

And hard fractals with a challenge mode. Dont’ forget fractals are getting harder too.

That’s false, only challenge mote (which is an extra difficulty, outside the fractals scale) and maybe Swampland are harder, the rest of the changes made their respective fractals easier not harder. All of them good changes btw, I’m not complaining.

It’s true. One of the devs said in an interview, or AMA that the new swamp, no challenge mote or anything, was an attempt to get people ready for raids. See this is how it goes.

The rest of the game changes, because raids are now in it. It’s not just raids. A dev said straight up they intentionally made the swamp fractal harder to prepare people for raids.

Yes i read that AMA. He did say it. BUT you are leaving out the context which is VERY important here.

For months and months non-raiders where loudly voicing that raids how they are now are not accessible and there is no learning curve and that easy mode/story mode extravaganza (<— which i admit i was part of at that time)

Changing SOME fractals (nowhere near all or even most) to give players a kind of stepping stone for raids was the way they tried to go. They did that by changing a fractal that needed changing badly (swamp).

My comment was that the addition of Raids changes other parts of the game. People keep making claims that raids exist in a bubble and nothing else is affected but raids. I’ve proved that at least in one case, raids influenced the development of Fractals, and I’m sure the challenge mode Fractal was part of that package deal.

Furthermore, we know some skills have been altered due to raids. They’d not have done it for open world PvE.

And I’m relatively sure that the ranger elite spec was designed because raids were coming in the game. There was no other reason for a healer spec to be in the game.

No part of the game is completely separate. Changes to PvE that affect the economy affect PvPer’s to, if they need to buy stuff. Changes to WvW affect things. For example, if badges of honor hadn’t been added to achievement point chests, then it’s likely that we’d still be able to buy gifts of battle with them. But they were added and now it’s far less convenient for some people, including me, to get a gift of battle or a legendary.

And I’m sure that the development of the ranger’s elite spec was influenced by raids. I can’t think of another explanation that makes sense.

Raids influence things outside of raids. They don’t exist in a bubble and though I can ignore them, saying that they don’t affect anything else is demonstrably not true.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The rest of the game changes, because raids are now in it. It’s not just raids. A dev said straight up they intentionally made the swamp fractal harder to prepare people for raids.

Link for that AMA?

Yet the rest of the Fractals they added were easier than core Fractals, and all the changes to Fractals were straight up nerfs in difficulty. They are ALL easier now.

I don’t have the link, but I’m pretty sure it was the AMA when the fractal launched. It was said.

As far as difficulty I’m not so sure you or I are in a position to judge. I know for a fact I’m more powerful with my elite spec and I get the whole break bar thing, which a lot of people don’t.

One question….do you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that the ranger elite spec would have been a healing spec if raids weren’t in the game. Because we all know no where else in PvE needs a healer. So if raids are the reason that was decided that raids are affecting the game.

No area of this game exists in a bubble. Open world PvE seldom sees nerfs for anything but my skills will get changed based on what happens in raids whether I raid or not.

You can’t add a penthouse to a building without raising it’s height. Adding anything to the game is going to affect other things.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

And hard fractals with a challenge mode. Dont’ forget fractals are getting harder too.

That’s false, only challenge mote (which is an extra difficulty, outside the fractals scale) and maybe Swampland are harder, the rest of the changes made their respective fractals easier not harder. All of them good changes btw, I’m not complaining.

It’s true. One of the devs said in an interview, or AMA that the new swamp, no challenge mote or anything, was an attempt to get people ready for raids. See this is how it goes.

The rest of the game changes, because raids are now in it. It’s not just raids. A dev said straight up they intentionally made the swamp fractal harder to prepare people for raids.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe so. Like I said, I’ve seen what happens over time in other games, and this game is moving in that direction. If I were on a sled, sliding down a snow bank moving toward a cliff, I wouldn’t wait to go over the cliff to say something. Just saying.

Well since LS3 started we got 4 new pve maps, 2 new pvp maps (in beta), 2 (+4 with tweaks, total 6) Fractals and 1 Raid Wing. I’m not seeing that “raid focus” direction at all. In fact since LS3 started every type of player got more content than they did at any point in the game’s lifetime. What’s not to like about the new direction?

And hard fractals with a challenge mode. Dont’ forget fractals are getting harder too.

Edit: In fact, Anet are changing the fractals into the training ground for raids. That should tell you something too.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Because, as has been alreadymentioned, the problem is not the armor, but it’s acquisition method.

Why is the acquisition a problem for the armor and not for the weapons and backpieces? They are also exclusive gated behind certain content.
Don’t start again with stat swap. The cases that someone build the item only for stat swap is extremly rare. People craft them for the skin.

Vayne.8563

…

I play MMOs now for over 10 years. I never experienced a takeover from raids. It was always pretty clear from the beginning that raids are the focus.
The raid system is different from other MMOs as we have a hard equipment cap.

It was also always clear that ArenaNet wants optional content for organised groups that can’t be cleared with your average PUG.

Manasa Devi.7958

If you can arrange that I can be raiding along with 9 compatible people a few minutes into my gaming session whenever I happen to find an opportunity to log on, I could probably do it. My skill level won’t be the problem.

Unless you are a tank, this is also not existent in any other game that features easy modes and automated queues. Yet people find time to sit an hour in a queue but can’t be bothered with manual search.

I didn’t say or even imply a takeover system of raids. I’m saying most game are raid centric, but the raid community, like most communities, want more and more. When raids were brought up originally, many raiders so, no no, we just want challenging content. We don’t need exclusive rewards. Then they get harder content and now the song has changed. We’re doing the hardest content in the game we want those rewards. But raiders are always the loudest segment of the PvE population, so they keep getting more and more of what they want.

And the poor solo player working his way through Orr, he’s getting less and less because he doesn’t speak up and he’s never going to.

Devs need to understand that most of the people playing aren’t going to tell them what they want or don’t want. They’ll just play the game or leave the game…without a word spoken.

Well most people solo the story so most people never see it, or even know about it.

I have soloed hearts and minds many times. The penalty box doesn’t affect solo play at all. It only affects group play.

I’ve gotten many people through Hearts and Minds, and the first time or second time you do it, you’ll often end up in the penalty box. It means you’ve died, but other people in the party are still alive.

If that happens, and someone remains alive, they can finish it, without you participating, because you’re in the penalty box. It’s a stupid mechanic. But only one person needs to finish the instance for you to get credit, even if you are in the penalty box.

I’ve been in the penalty box myself once or twice and it’s completely unfun. Whoever thought that mechanic was a good idea needs to rethink what most people find fun. Sitting there watching others fight on my behalf with no way to rejoin them is not fun.

But don’t let the posts of a few people ruin your experience, because it’s not as bad as all that. Hell, I’ll help you through the instance the first time if you want. I enjoy it.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

…

Its not like i don’t understand what it is that you want or disturbing you.
I tried showing you its not as bleek as it may feel to you.

Gw2 is my first (and only real) mmorpg. So raiding here is my first experience with raids AT ALL. I played a lot at launch, then on and off for years and since HoT i have been playing almost everyday.

I didn’t start out as raider. It was difficult in the beginning but gets better and easier every week. The difficulties where almost the same ones i had when i started doing dungeons. With the difference that its harder to find 9 other guys instead of 4.

After doing dungeons a lot it almost became second nature. Skipping mobs, positioning, boss mechanics and so on. I am noticing the same stuff happening with raids. You start playing on autopilot on the easier bosses.

I don’t see why this can’t be done by others.

The difficulty of raids isn’t my problem. This is not my first MMO. It’s not my second MMO. It’s not my third MMO. This isn’t even my sixth MMO.

People who have played multiple MMOs over a long time might well have a better handle on what I’m saying.

It might even surprise you how many people came here to get away from raids or the type of content that is raids. It’s not just what raids are now at this second. It’s what raids do, eventually, to games and communities.

You surely must have seen game threads where the resistance to damage meters is quite high. There’s a reason for that. You’re from here, and this is your first experience. You haven’t burned out on that content yet.

Play MMOs for 10 years and you might have a different view than you have now. Raids are the kind of content that take over MMOs. There was room for MMO space for game that was different. And every step we take to add the things that make people like me less comfortable with the game, is one other thing that drives us to not like the game as much.

MMOs are like homes. We live in them. We spend hours, days, weeks and months in these places. We adopt them to become ours. This game used to be “my game”. That is, the decisions the devs made in releasing the game on launch was about 90% of everything I wanted in an MMO (with a few small omissions).

But as time goes on and the game starts to drift from that initial game, this game becomes less my home. I’m no longer the guy who does everything in the game, I do less. And as they add more and provide less of the other stuff, I do even less.

As there’s less for me to do, I’ll just move to the next game that comes out,. eventually, when I’ve done everything I want to do. For me that won’t be this year, or next year. Hell it might be never.

But I’ve moved on from MMOs before and I move on from them because their focus changes. What they offer changes.

And I’m a guy that puts up with a lot of change before I move. I promise you there are a lot of people who walked away from the game because it’s become less casual than it was…probably more people than people who are raiding now…in my opinion.

Games like this are a comfort zone for some people. You take them too far out of their comfort zone and you force them to rethink their bound with the game.

This isn’t about raids being too difficult. I CAN do raids. I can join a raiding guild and beat every boss, just like I beat every elite area in Guild Wars 1. Being a raid isn’t my issue.

Not enjoying raids, and seeing rewards I want locked behind them, that’s my issue.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

OniGiri.9461:

To be honest only a little has changed in regards to that.

If you look at the legendary journey (the collections you need to make a precursor).
The journeys for the 2nd generation of precursors/legendaries consist of four collections. Only one of those is “forcing you to play the game you claim to love” (sorry for being so confrontational) the others are literally gold sinks. Apart from the tokens you need from the silverwastes you can buy everything needed from the tp to complete those three other collections.

Now lets look at the coming legendary armor. The thing you need from raids are the two precursor collections and 150 Legendary Insights. There are a lot of LFG-Groups out there that sell you raid spots every week. You can sink all that gold you were mentioning (either grinded or credit card) into joining these groups. Anet already said that selling group spots is not illegal. You don’t have to know anything – join, die immidiatly and they do the rest. They will even help you with completing your collections.

If you are ok with buying legendaries from tp – buying Legendary Insights is no difference.

So you’re saying give money to players, not Anet, and if they rip me off, then what? If I gave 150 or 200 gold to someone and didn’t get the raid, I’d leave the game, period. Sorry that’s not an answer at all.

How is Anet getting more with the old system of buying it from the tp?
Before you either grinded gold (literally no money for Anet) or you used your credit card – both of these still apply.
Then, with that aquired gold, you bought the item from the tp (you gave another player gold in exchange for the item he put on the tp – which also applies here).

Well scamming can be reported – but i admit its a bit risky.
But if you want to bypass the system anet intended – thats one way to go.

Scamming can be reported but you won’t get your money back, report or no report. Depending on the honesty of complete strangers in a game is a risk. That’s why buying on the TP or buying from the cash shop is acceptable and buying raids from strangers isn’t. That’s not something Anet sanctions.

I’m not worried about playing the game. I’m not worried even about hard content. I don’t like raiding. It destroys my enjoyment of the game. I don’t even like the idea of a rotation.

I’ve had fights before in real life, I never had a rotation.

I came to MMOs from RPGs, and I play games to immerse myself in the world and the game. Raids are the exact opposite of immersion. They’re a rotation, they’re by rote, they’re timed, they’re repetitive, they’re everything I don’t like about the genre.

And Anet is going to spend all kinds of time and resources making not just unique rewards or raids, but a type of reward available no other way?

I’m not in favor of it, I’m not going to support it, and I don’t really think most casual players do. Nor do I support the way story elements are included in raids. I think it was a bad decision on Anet’s part.

I mean generally speaking, people play for immersion or mechanics, or some combination of both. Raids leans far to mechanics. My play style leans far to immersion.

Because I don’t find them immersive, because I find them repetitive, because banging my head against the same boss over and over until I get it right and everyone else around me gets it right is annoying, raids don’t help me.

I used to run dungeons casually with my guild and we got through them, even if it wasn’t pretty. I can’t do that with raids.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

Right so why not have a grind to get the legendary armor that’s equal? That would solve my issue. The point is when this game launched you could farm yourself to death and buy a legendary. You could gamble to get a precursor and make a legendary. You could buy a precursor and make a legendary. You could take out your credit card, buy gems, convert them to cash, and buy a legendary. That’s how the game WAS at launch.

It’s now different. I don’t like that difference.

To be honest only a little has changed in regards to that.

If you look at the legendary journey (the collections you need to make a precursor).
The journeys for the 2nd generation of precursors/legendaries consist of four collections. Only one of those is “forcing you to play the game you claim to love” (sorry for being so confrontational) the others are literally gold sinks. Apart from the tokens you need from the silverwastes you can buy everything needed from the tp to complete those three other collections.

Now lets look at the coming legendary armor. The thing you need from raids are the two precursor collections and 150 Legendary Insights. There are a lot of LFG-Groups out there that sell you raid spots every week. You can sink all that gold you were mentioning (either grinded or credit card) into joining these groups. Anet already said that selling group spots is not illegal. You don’t have to know anything – join, die immidiatly and they do the rest. They will even help you with completing your collections.

If you are ok with buying legendaries from tp – buying Legendary Insights is no difference.

So you’re saying give money to players, not Anet, and if they rip me off, then what? If I gave 150 or 200 gold to someone and didn’t get the raid, I’d leave the game, period. Sorry that’s not an answer at all.

flog.3485:

Vayne.8563:

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

Actually for me,. not having raids was part of this game’s identity.

Vayne.8563:

Well, no, because some of the things I started playing for aren’t there. The lack of raids is one of the reasons I started playing Guild Wars 2.

You see it always starts this way with raids. There’s only a couple, but we just want challenging content, we don’t want rewards. Then we want the best rewards, because we’re doing the most challenging content.

I can see how this would be harmful in the long run. IF this would become the mindset of the game it would mean that the “best” rewards can only be had by doing raids. But we are nowhere near that point.

Vayne.8563:

Rewards are part of the reason people play MMOs. When the best rewards, which weren’t locked away, are now locked away, when content becomes more and more exclusive, the game changes identity.

Essentially I came to a game that was inclusive, the is becoming more and more exclusive. How can you possibly say that inclusion isn’t part of a game’s identity?

The exclusivity of an item is what makes it so desireable. If i can buy the same armor from every vendor and literally everyone can buy and wear it – it looses its appeal and value. This concept is not exclusive to games.

Even though you could buy legendaries from TP before – the grind to get the gold was the same.

Right so why not have a grind to get the legendary armor that’s equal? That would solve my issue. The point is when this game launched you could farm yourself to death and buy a legendary. You could gamble to get a precursor and make a legendary. You could buy a precursor and make a legendary. You could take out your credit card, buy gems, convert them to cash, and buy a legendary. That’s how the game WAS at launch.

It’s now different. I don’t like that difference.

You perfectly describe a core aspect of the game that I dislike the most about the game. I personally dislike your views about legendary armor because you introduce, according to me, the idea of a skin treadmill with legendary armor being at the top. The thing is, not everyone will have the time nor the energy to get into that long grind that could represent the legendary armor and besides there is also a matter of economic balance to take into account to not completely crash the market regarding the necessary materials to craft the different pieces of armor. And this is even more troublesome if one could take a credit, buy the gems to convert to gold and buy all materials needed.

I’m not talking about a skin treadmill at all. Not even a little. Legendaries were somethign I was interested in and I did. But nothing in this game has the same “overhead” as getting into raids. Not in time or dedication. If you don’t find raids fun, you’re out of that reward.

I’ve made 12 legendaries. I didn’t buy them (though I have bought precursors). I’ve also done precursor collections. I look forward to this sort of long adventure crafting process when it’s casual and I can work on it at my own pace.

I can’t work on raids at my own pace. If I wanted to raid for 15 minutes a week, I’d never really learn to raid. Do you know how I know I don’t like raids? I"ve been raiding, that’s how.

So basically do this high overhead content, or don’t get this reward. Okay but the new legendaries coming out have no real path associated with them, there’s nothing to do but craft them. I made Shooshadoo in like a couple of hours. I had most of the mats anyway.

So yeah a legendary journey for armor that didn’t include me spending a lot of time doing something I don’t like would have been something more for me to do in the game. As of now, I won’t be doing it, because I won’t spend that much time raiding. If I did, I’d end up hating the game.

That’s just not working for me.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

Actually for me,. not having raids was part of this game’s identity.

Vayne.8563:

Well, no, because some of the things I started playing for aren’t there. The lack of raids is one of the reasons I started playing Guild Wars 2.

You see it always starts this way with raids. There’s only a couple, but we just want challenging content, we don’t want rewards. Then we want the best rewards, because we’re doing the most challenging content.

I can see how this would be harmful in the long run. IF this would become the mindset of the game it would mean that the “best” rewards can only be had by doing raids. But we are nowhere near that point.

Vayne.8563:

Rewards are part of the reason people play MMOs. When the best rewards, which weren’t locked away, are now locked away, when content becomes more and more exclusive, the game changes identity.

Essentially I came to a game that was inclusive, the is becoming more and more exclusive. How can you possibly say that inclusion isn’t part of a game’s identity?

The exclusivity of an item is what makes it so desireable. If i can buy the same armor from every vendor and literally everyone can buy and wear it – it looses its appeal and value. This concept is not exclusive to games.

Even though you could buy legendaries from TP before – the grind to get the gold was the same.

Right so why not have a grind to get the legendary armor that’s equal? That would solve my issue. The point is when this game launched you could farm yourself to death and buy a legendary. You could gamble to get a precursor and make a legendary. You could buy a precursor and make a legendary. You could take out your credit card, buy gems, convert them to cash, and buy a legendary. That’s how the game WAS at launch.

It’s now different. I don’t like that difference.

Anyone who saw the original elemental sword and saw this one knows well that this isn’t just a copy/paste. This skin was remade for this game, based on an image from the other game. It’s harder to do than you think it is, and a lot of people seem to like it.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Actually for me,. not having raids was part of this game’s identity.

Some new content that you can always ignore was added and it changed the game’s identity… how is adding something, without affecting the rest of the game, changing the identity of a game? And because you said it bellow, was adding Liadri to the game a change in identity?

Changing the way rewards are, ie making rewards more grindy, when the original grind wasn’t the same, that’s another change.

Changing how some rewards are and making them require more grind, doesn’t make the entire game more grind-y. A game’s identity is about the game as a whole, not a couple of things here and a couple of things there. And there have always been legendary weapons in the game, those are the at the top of the list of “grind”

Saying something hasn’t changed when it obviously has isn’t really helping the discussion.

The discussion is about the game’s identity, not if something changed here and there, obviously many things changed, but the core game (its identity) is still there.

There were loads of reviews for Guild Wars 2 at release. They all praised certain aspects of the game, and that’s what the core experience of the game is, that’s it’s identity, what many/most consider the actual strengths of this game. A couple of rewards changed, and a couple of new bosses or encounters added that are different/harder yes but that didn’t change the core of the game. The same reasons someone started playing GW2, still apply

Well, no, because some of the things I started playing for aren’t there. The lack of raids is one of the reasons I started playing Guild Wars 2.

You see it always starts this way with raids. There’s only a couple, but we just want challenging content, we don’t want rewards. Then we want the best rewards, because we’re doing the most challenging content.

Rewards are part of the reason people play MMOs. When the best rewards, which weren’t locked away, are now locked away, when content becomes more and more exclusive, the game changes identity.

Essentially I came to a game that was inclusive, the is becoming more and more exclusive. How can you possibly say that inclusion isn’t part of a game’s identity?

Rednik.3809:

OniGiri.9461:

Bringing up dungeons is just a joke since they stated that their won’t ever be any new dungeons.

So, they switched dungeon development resources to fractals, that’s why now we have much more new fractals than raid… oh wait, raids got more EVERYTHING than fractals.

You do realize that one fractal has about 5 different levels. You have to adjust 5 different difficulty settings, instability composition, mobs, bosses, agony calculation, etc.

So, basically sit there and change a few numbers in a script. Sounds like a lot of work, really.
And ofc Anet doesn’t bother with allowing players to betatest fractals, only raids are entitled for that.

Guilds are invited to test raids, because they’re “experts”. Which I suppose tells the whole story right there.

If raids were “so easy” to get into, as many insist, why have guilds from the game been invited to test them, when that situation exists for no other content?

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

So you’re ignoring everything else I said?

Check out the posts above yours, it wasn’t a response to you. All the posts above yours belong to your “average anti-Raid thread” and not here. Now we go back to how much development time is spent on Raids, how adding multiple difficulties will help with Raids and so on, things had been discussed a million times in other threads, yet they are being brought here too.

I gave my response on the topic of identity:

Maybe there is a huge difference in how we interpret the word “identity” when used for a game.

Changes in mechanics only inside Raids (like not allowing rez, or requiring healers), the grind for a specific item (winter’s presence) or not having things for sale on the tp for gold, to me has nothing to do with a game’s identity. Those either affect very specific content, or very specific rewards, not the game as a whole.

I call a “game’s identity” the big picture and the core aspects of it, that are still there for the vast majority of the game’s content. And besides, even the OP said what he meant with identity change:

TLDR; What makes GW2 different than any other generic MMO right now?

And we can all agree that despite the changes, the game is still different to most other generic MMO out there and the identity change the op was talking about is wrong.

Actually for me,. not having raids was part of this game’s identity. I came to this game, in part, specifically because it didn’t have raids, having had bad experience with raids in other games.

So yeah, simply adding raids will affect the identity of the game for some people.

Changing the way rewards are, ie making rewards more grindy, when the original grind wasn’t the same, that’s another change.

Saying something hasn’t changed when it obviously has isn’t really helping the discussion.

No one gets to pic the game’s identity. You can only see how you identify the game itself.

If you saw this as a largely casual game, in which you could do everything, and then suddenly a bunch of stuff was added you either couldn’t do or didn’t find fun doing, you might think the identity of the game has changed.

Before HoT, do you know the amount of PvE content I “couldn’t” do?

Liadri.

A single boss from a single festival. That’s it.

Since HOT there are adventures I can’t get gold on (and living in Australia doesn’t help that), there are raids I have no real interest in, that offer rewards I’d probably like, there’s a push to PvP more and more, when I used to do it casually sometimes for fun.

And I still don’t believe the identity of the game has changed for me, but I can definitely see why other people would say so.

maddoctor.2738:

Sartharina.3542:

… the ability to change stats on the fly with Legendary weapons/backpieces/armor is simply a way to not screw players over when they do want to change stats. It’s far cheaper to craft multiple Ascended weapons and armor.

You can’t change the sigils/runes (And runes are more important than sigils, I think), so it’s not much of a benefit, anyway.

What I find more interesting in the last couple of pages is that the identity of GW2 apparently changed because they didn’t add multiple ways of getting Legendary Armor. So the Legendary Armor being only available in Raids is a “loss of identity” for the game… How can anyone take this discussion seriously, if all it devolved into is a discussion about Raids and legendary armor?

So you’re ignoring everything else I said? Because it seems that way to me. I said, straight out, raids are not the issue, but they’re symptomatic of the issue. You don’t think increased grind changes the game? Grind for say the wintersday shoulders, which I brought up several times.

Or the fact that normal game mechanics like rezzing don’t seem to work in raids. Or that raids are the only place in the game you need a healer, after I bought a game that said you don’t need healers.

No, this is a symptom of something going on for a long time. You want to try to make this just about legendary armor, but I was saying the same thing, in raid threads, before raids ever made it to the game.

Raids create kitten and them mentality. You can see it throughout this thread. Sure if you’re one of “them” there’s no problem. It’s only when you’re one of us that the problem arises.

You’re fine, because you enjoy raids and so you can have the best rewards and there’s no issue.

But it’s not what I signed on for, and the more important issues like not being able to buy things like legendaries are on the TP, which were originally possible are major changes in the way the game makes you do things.

Before a casual player or a rich player could buy almost anything he wanted. People who have money or want to spend money on the game could. Now, you can’t spend the same amount of money because you may have to do things you don’t enjoy to get certain rewards.

Is it better for the game? I’m not thinking so.

Eddbopkins.2630:

I guess my grips comes from gw1 days.times have changed and I guess my mmo vision should to. But this just saddens me disappoints me.

But you can get certain things from killing specific mobs. There’s a focus you can only get from the chest after killing the shadow behemoth. Etched weapons are only drops from the Jormag Fight. There are raid rewards too.

Fractal weapons can drop in fractals from daily chests.

Hell I got two really nice pinnacle weapons from achievement points.

Bottle of Jade Energy in the collection is bugged. I used the Capacitive Bottle (which I’ve used before so I know how it works), and with the buff on I was struck by the Jade Maw’s beam. I did this numerous times. I never got credit toward the collection.

Edit: Was doing Fractal level 36, specifically.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

But you can get a legendary backpack from PvP or Fractals.

They added multiple legendary backpacks because it’s easy for them to do so. Legendary armor takes an insane amount of time to finish as we’ve already seen. Who is to say that they won’t add another method of acquiring Legendary armor (different skin) once the first one is out? It happened with ascended rings, it happened with legendary backpacks.

The problem here is how long it takes for them to finish one set of armor. If the reason this discussion even exist is because they don’t have multiple ways of giving out Legendary armor, then that has little to do with identity or direction and it’s all about the developer being so slow in creating armor skins.

See you’re saying what I’ve said all along. Legendary armor takes an insane amount of time (read resources) in addition to the resources of making raids, but only a small percentage of the population will benefit from it.

I’m not a game developer and maybe I have no idea what I’m talking about but this seems counter intuitive to me. In a game where fashion wars is the game, raiders just won.

I’m not sure how that can possibly be good for the game.

Don’t you think its just a small subset of people interested in legendary armor? We have had legendary items for over 4 years now and maybe 25% of the playerbase has one (or more) of these items. So putting this high end reward in the high end end game content will alienate only a subset of the group of people that are interested in legendary items.

No, I don’t think this at all. I think when people see cool animated armor they’re going to want it. And that will be a larger subset, in my opinion, than you think it will be.

It’s like the snow shoulders. Lots of people wanted it, even though not everyone would grind for it.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

What do you mean it didn’t stop any complaints about them?

The PVP forums had a lot of pve players who couldn’t get their shinny pvp backpack even though they had access to the fractal backpack. Same types of players also complain about how they changed the ascended acquisition method from pvp. They were pve players, not pvp players.

We’ve seen several people say that they believe the identity of the game changed, and those people are right to them. To those people the identity of the game has changed. And though raids all by themselves aren’t the cause of anything, they’re a very visible poster boy for the way the game is changing.

This goes to the phrase of the OP:

TLDR; What makes GW2 different than any other generic MMO right now?

All the things that GW2 did differently than other games somehow stopped existing because they added Raids?

Did they stop adding dynamics events and went to a traditional quest system? No.
Did they made it so you curse when other players are around and steal your mobs and your nodes? No.
Did they made the combat static with passive defenses? No.
Did they remove the ability to enter pvp and be at max level and have access to nearly everything? No. (Expansion excluded, you don’t have to level up, nor grind to be effective in pvp)

The identity of the game is still there and nothing changed. They added new things you can safely ignore and go focus on the things that you like. How can anyone say that the identity of the game changed when all the pillars of the game are still intact? I believe those that say that the identity of the game changed should go play some other mmorpgs for a while to REMEMBER what GW2 did better than those games, and still does.

You can say nothing’s changed over and over again, but in fact, some stuff has changed. The way new legendaries are is different from the way old legendaries are. That’s a change. Something has changed. Raids have been added to the game and for a surprising number of people that seems to be a change. And it is in fact a change.

The difficulty level of the game has changed, and that’s a change.

The way mastery points were added is a change, and the way elite specializations were added was a change.

Hero points that require groups to do, that’s a change.

Just because core elements are in a game, doesn’t mean nothing’s changed. As I’ve already said, more than once, this game doesn’t have an identity with a capital I. A roleplayer playign this game won’t perceive the same identity that I do.

But yes, I believe the game has changed significantly, mostly for the better.

I don’t know why you think people would not speak up if they see changes they don’t like.

Just pointing out the OP finished Hearts and Minds, on his own, before this patch. I was in contact with him while he was doing it.

He actually thought it was bugged, but I explained to him what he had to do.

The modremoth messaging in the last phase was so confusing he simply didn’t know what he had to do.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

See you’re saying what I’ve said all along. Legendary armor takes an insane amount of time (read resources) in addition to the resources of making raids, but only a small percentage of the population will benefit from it.

I’m going to ask here, if there was another way of getting legendary armor would we be having these types of discussions? Because although we got two methods of acquiring a legendary backpack (Fractals and PVP) that didn’t stop any kind of complaints about them.

I don’t think making legendary armor takes loads of resources. I think it’s more that they do not allocate enough resources in the making of armor, and less about how hard it is to make some. Heart of Thorns itself was often criticized for having so few armor sets, so it’s not a problem specific to the legendary armor.

It’s either their engine, their armor creation process, the lack of enough people working on armors, or a combination of the above that’s the real problem. And like all problems, it should be fixed. Armor sets taking so many months to create is an excuse. If it takes so long, then hire more armor artists… like all those they had while armor sets were offered on the gem store (we got a new set every so often), or how many sets were included in the game at release.

What do you mean it didn’t stop any complaints about them? It stopped my complaints. You assume because you see complaints, no complaints are stopped but that’s not a provable premise. I wanted a legendary backpack and was able to get a legendary backpack…just not the PvP one. I didn’t complain about it because I was able to get a legendary backpack.

Whatever the reason armor is slow to create is not really the discussion. If there’s a queue to create armor, then this process pushes back the queue. And if most people won’t be getting legendary armor, then that probably isn’t the best utilitization of resources.

I get it. You like raids. You want raids to have great rewards. I like the game. I want the game to continue to do well. I don’t believe, in my heart of hearts, that raids have helped that, no matter how many people are in that particular niche.

We’ve seen several people say that they believe the identity of the game changed, and those people are right to them. To those people the identity of the game has changed. And though raids all by themselves aren’t the cause of anything, they’re a very visible poster boy for the way the game is changing.

Some people like the change, some people don’t, but I think the tendency of most MMOs to get easier as time goes on, is because most people dont’ like difficult content.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

But you can get a legendary backpack from PvP or Fractals.

They added multiple legendary backpacks because it’s easy for them to do so. Legendary armor takes an insane amount of time to finish as we’ve already seen. Who is to say that they won’t add another method of acquiring Legendary armor (different skin) once the first one is out? It happened with ascended rings, it happened with legendary backpacks.

The problem here is how long it takes for them to finish one set of armor. If the reason this discussion even exist is because they don’t have multiple ways of giving out Legendary armor, then that has little to do with identity or direction and it’s all about the developer being so slow in creating armor skins.

See you’re saying what I’ve said all along. Legendary armor takes an insane amount of time (read resources) in addition to the resources of making raids, but only a small percentage of the population will benefit from it.

I’m not a game developer and maybe I have no idea what I’m talking about but this seems counter intuitive to me. In a game where fashion wars is the game, raiders just won.

I’m not sure how that can possibly be good for the game.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Vayne.8563:

Silent The Gray.3091:

SkyShroud.2865:

From what I can see, anet is planning to fill up the entire tyria map basically the map we have now. The new continent most likely be another game.

and in 20 years time they might release 2 more expansions, how brilliant that will be, most people will have moved onto other games if they don’t put things into high gear, Anet has been sitting on their laurels for far too long

Don’t know why you think this, consider most people think the expansion is coming end of this year, beginning of next. At least most of the theorizing being done.

We know from Mo that 70 people have been working on the expansion for a long time already and probably more since that information was given.

that is noting more than cheap talk you’re listening to at best . and all hear say with no proof what so ever. and i very much put doubt there be a new pack coming out the end or next year even at all. giving how the last year and half has gone . safe bet is a game that has done upgrades and improvements even if they have a sub system . as this dead horse ahh only time will be the tell of this tail

I’m not listening to cheap talk. I’m listening to people who work for the company. Let’s see, who knows more, some random guy on the forum who clearly doesn’t like the game, or the company that makes it?

I think the company, but you, that’s just my opinion.

I think Rampage as One sounds cooler than Strength of the Pack too. But it’s not exactly a hot button topic for me.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

snip

I believe this is bad for the game because I believe more people will be annoyed by it than excited by it. Still just my opinion.

Which doesn’t mean what I’m saying isn’t correct. We’ll never really know.

I believe over time more and more people will go into raiding. You are right in saying most players will not be raiding.
Just like most players will not be pvp-ing.
And most players will not be wvw-ing.
And most players will not be fractal frequenters.
And most players will not be puzzle jumpers.

Every content that goes beyond farming, open world exploring and world bosses will only be done by a small subset of the complete playerbase. Why not invest in all these game modes?

I think the players that favor pve have the least ground to complain about resources not spent on their game mode. Its been stated over and over by now how many resources actually go into raids vs. the rest of pve. Why do you want to keep this myth of “waisted resources” alive?

Investing in all these game modes is fine. Making unique rewards in one game mode not duplicated in other game modes…not so much. Again in my opinion.

In your opinion investing in a game mode like raids means having THE best rewards in the game. But if raiding is a minority what’s the logic in appeasing a small percentage of players while risking alienating a larger percentage?

But this isn’t exclusive to raids. Its persistent to all the other game mode exclusive rewards that exist in the game.
Currently i have to do a lot of PVP (which i personally really don’t care for) to work my way through to the “PvP only” legendary backpack “ascension”. Thats a unique item that only exists in this (minority centered) game mode.

Let me ask you another question: In a five year old game – how do you get people interested in doing a new game mode. You give them an incentive. Thats logical. And from my perspective it looks like its working.

But you can get a legendary backpack from PvP or Fractals. You may want THAT legendary backpack, and that’s fine. There are still two legendary backpacks in the game. I didn’t get the PvP one, because that almost destroyed the game for me and I forced myself to stop even though I wanted it. I got the fractal one instead. I have a legendary backpack now, and I could have had one without PvPing.

You can’t give people an incentive to do something that in most games a minority of the population does. It’s not like raids is the most popular activity in most games, or even any games I can think of. What you’re doing is creating a divide in the communty which has been visible since launch. Infighting has existed in raid threads a lot.

The trick is to give unique rewards, but not unique reward types. If you give rewards that are “too good” you will end up “encouraging” people to do content they don’t want and they’ll have to make that choice….live without it, or do something I don’t like.

As I said, in the case of PvP, it almost drove me from the game. I went for that reward, didn’t enjoy it, forced myself to do it, got stuck on the very last 3 pips I needed, just couldn’t get them, and ran out of time.

It was very very close to leaving this game at this point As it is, I wasted hours doing something I disliked. Actively disliked. For a reward.

And I used to spend a lot of money on this game. I mean a lot. I have money and this was my main source of entertainment. Now I’m doing other things because this game is less entertaining to me. The PvP did that to me. It put me in that mindset.

I’m surely not the only one that feels this way. You want to encourage people to raid, give them an armor skin that doesn’t do something no other armor skin in the game does. Don’t call it legendary. Because at the end of the day, there are going to be less raiders than non-raiders and if 5% of the population or even 10% are walking around with legendary armor, and 90% of the population has to look at it and not be able to have it, that’s a recipe for dissatisfaction right there.

The more stuff you ask people to ignore the more people will leave. Because everyone has their own threshold of frustration.

Silent The Gray.3091:

SkyShroud.2865:

From what I can see, anet is planning to fill up the entire tyria map basically the map we have now. The new continent most likely be another game.

and in 20 years time they might release 2 more expansions, how brilliant that will be, most people will have moved onto other games if they don’t put things into high gear, Anet has been sitting on their laurels for far too long

Don’t know why you think this, consider most people think the expansion is coming end of this year, beginning of next. At least most of the theorizing being done.

We know from Mo that 70 people have been working on the expansion for a long time already and probably more since that information was given.

castlemanic.3198:

Silent The Gray.3091:

The last “New” content that we saw was the release of HoT, everything since then has been a re-hash of old stuff.

Living world season 3? The new raid? Current events? New maps?

Don’t forget the new fractals.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

It’s an opinion based on long observation and it’s completely logical. You don’t have to agree with it, but it doesn’t make that opinion wrong.

I’m not even sure what there is to discuss. If you put only the best rewards behind certain content and people don’t like it, they’ll be unhappy. I can’t even imagine anyone trying to argue against that point.

So either more people like raids than I think (which I doubt is true), or people are doing raids for rewards. The less they like raiding the less happy they’re going to be. I’ve seen it in other games and now I’m seeing it here.

Again you don’t have to agree. But that doesn’t make what I’m saying wrong.

It’s easy to believe because you like raids that everyone doing them likes them as much as you. But I’ve often found people play stuff they don’t like to get rewards, burn out on it and leave games.

Lets look at some events in the past:

Dungeons on launch were super hard – ppl were unhappy
Orr maps on launch were super hard – ppl were unhappy
HoT maps on launch were grindy and super hard – ppl were unhappy
Precursor aquisation was extremly random or super expensive

Dungeons were nerfed – ppl were unhappy
Orr maps were nerfed – ppl were unhappy
HoT maps were nerfed and the gold ventiles were opened – ppl were unhappy
Precursor aquisation is not random anymore (and some are cheaper then before) – ppl were unhappy.

Pleasing everyone is impossible. Sure its good to listen to feedback
that the playerbase gives you. But if someone creates a product the primary focus is on the creators vision and wishes.

I’m not really sure of your point here. I mean what you say is obviously true, That said, I’m not sure that what I’m saying is reaching you.

It is my belief, and it’s been supported in what we know from other games, that only a small percentage of the community raid. A small percentage being some sort of minority. Surely you don’t believe most players raid or consider themselves raiders.

Resources are spent on this minority, not just to make raids, but to make rewards. There are definitely some people unhappy with the number of armor sets you can earn in game for example. If Anet takes time to make 3 new sets of armor, just for raiders, then people who don’t raid, who in my opinion are the majority, have the right to say something about it.

That’s what I’m doing. Saying something about it. You say people complain about everything. People didn’t complain nearly as much about dungeons when they were making profit doing them. I mean sure, some people complained but I think most of us can tell the difference between random well thought out complaints and people just complaining to complain.

I believe this is bad for the game because I believe more people will be annoyed by it than excited by it. Still just my opinion.

Which doesn’t mean what I’m saying isn’t correct. We’ll never really know.

I believe over time more and more people will go into raiding. You are right in saying most players will not be raiding.
Just like most players will not be pvp-ing.
And most players will not be wvw-ing.
And most players will not be fractal frequenters.
And most players will not be puzzle jumpers.

Every content that goes beyond farming, open world exploring and world bosses will only be done by a small subset of the complete playerbase. Why not invest in all these game modes?

I think the players that favor pve have the least ground to complain about resources not spent on their game mode. Its been stated over and over by now how many resources actually go into raids vs. the rest of pve. Why do you want to keep this myth of “waisted resources” alive?

Investing in all these game modes is fine. Making unique rewards in one game mode not duplicated in other game modes…not so much. Again in my opinion.

In your opinion investing in a game mode like raids means having THE best rewards in the game. But if raiding is a minority what’s the logic in appeasing a small percentage of players while risking alienating a larger percentage?

Ayrilana.1396:

Keadron.9570:

In the beginning gw2 was advertised with no holy trinity. Every class had a way of healing so never a need for a dedicated healer. Play your way. Which is what drew me to the game to begin with.
Now we have a trinity, Anet even further increased the need for a dedicated healer in certain content by lowering the base healing of all classes across the board. Added raiding and after saying it wasn’t meant for everyone and nobody would be forced to play it added legendary armor exclusive to raids.
So yes I would say the game has lost its identity.

Healer is only ever needed in raids. It’s not anywhere else in the game. For those that don’t raid, they can play the game as they wish without needing to use the trinity.

Question for you. Do you believe that if raid hadn’t be introduced to the game, the druid elite spec would have been as it is? Because I don’t. I think that the raids influenced not just balance, but the actual creation of one elite spec.

Why make a healing elite spec in a game where healing is largely not used? I’d have preferred something different, personally for my ranger main.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

It’s always bad for the game when you’re “encouraging” people to spend long amounts of time in content they don’t like.

What do you base this on?
If you want a certain reward you have to do a certain content. Its been like this launch.
And its like this in every other video game.

It’s an opinion based on long observation and it’s completely logical. You don’t have to agree with it, but it doesn’t make that opinion wrong.

I’m not even sure what there is to discuss. If you put only the best rewards behind certain content and people don’t like it, they’ll be unhappy. I can’t even imagine anyone trying to argue against that point.

So either more people like raids than I think (which I doubt is true), or people are doing raids for rewards. The less they like raiding the less happy they’re going to be. I’ve seen it in other games and now I’m seeing it here.

Again you don’t have to agree. But that doesn’t make what I’m saying wrong.

It’s easy to believe because you like raids that everyone doing them likes them as much as you. But I’ve often found people play stuff they don’t like to get rewards, burn out on it and leave games.

Lets look at some events in the past:

Dungeons on launch were super hard – ppl were unhappy
Orr maps on launch were super hard – ppl were unhappy
HoT maps on launch were grindy and super hard – ppl were unhappy
Precursor aquisation was extremly random or super expensive

Dungeons were nerfed – ppl were unhappy
Orr maps were nerfed – ppl were unhappy
HoT maps were nerfed and the gold ventiles were opened – ppl were unhappy
Precursor aquisation is not random anymore (and some are cheaper then before) – ppl were unhappy.

Pleasing everyone is impossible. Sure its good to listen to feedback
that the playerbase gives you. But if someone creates a product the primary focus is on the creators vision and wishes.

I’m not really sure of your point here. I mean what you say is obviously true, That said, I’m not sure that what I’m saying is reaching you.

It is my belief, and it’s been supported in what we know from other games, that only a small percentage of the community raid. A small percentage being some sort of minority. Surely you don’t believe most players raid or consider themselves raiders.

Resources are spent on this minority, not just to make raids, but to make rewards. There are definitely some people unhappy with the number of armor sets you can earn in game for example. If Anet takes time to make 3 new sets of armor, just for raiders, then people who don’t raid, who in my opinion are the majority, have the right to say something about it.

That’s what I’m doing. Saying something about it. You say people complain about everything. People didn’t complain nearly as much about dungeons when they were making profit doing them. I mean sure, some people complained but I think most of us can tell the difference between random well thought out complaints and people just complaining to complain.

I believe this is bad for the game because I believe more people will be annoyed by it than excited by it. Still just my opinion.

Which doesn’t mean what I’m saying isn’t correct. We’ll never really know.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

It’s always bad for the game when you’re “encouraging” people to spend long amounts of time in content they don’t like.

What do you base this on?
If you want a certain reward you have to do a certain content. Its been like this launch.
And its like this in every other video game.

It’s an opinion based on long observation and it’s completely logical. You don’t have to agree with it, but it doesn’t make that opinion wrong.

I’m not even sure what there is to discuss. If you put only the best rewards behind certain content and people don’t like it, they’ll be unhappy. I can’t even imagine anyone trying to argue against that point.

So either more people like raids than I think (which I doubt is true), or people are doing raids for rewards. The less they like raiding the less happy they’re going to be. I’ve seen it in other games and now I’m seeing it here.

Again you don’t have to agree. But that doesn’t make what I’m saying wrong.

It’s easy to believe because you like raids that everyone doing them likes them as much as you. But I’ve often found people play stuff they don’t like to get rewards, burn out on it and leave games.

maddoctor.2738:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

It happened with hats in GW…eventually.

It also happened with Ascended Rings in GW2
The newest content (Fractals) got the newest item tier (Ascended Rings)
Now the newest content (Raids) gets the newest items (Legendary Armor)

The main difference is that Rings are easy to make, armor took them a year or two, so the next Legendary armor (from other type of content) will probably take a couple more years. If it was me, I’d put the second Legendary armor in the next expansion, as an extra incentive to buy it (not in the next expansion’s Raids)

You’re right. And even though I loved Fractals, people complained that was the only way to get ascended rings and even back then, though I had enough ascended rings to choke a herd of wild horses, I agreed with those people.

This isn’t about me not getting something I want specifically even though I’m absolutely certain people are seeing it that way. I have ALWAYS advocated for multiple paths to rewards. This isn’t new or different from me.

But raids have the highest buy in of any area of this game. They require more commitment than getting starting in Fractals or running dungeons or even WvW, where you can just follow a random tag and make progress.

I also didn’t like the changes made to the gift of battle for the same reason. Before, achievement hunters could work towards badges of honor without engaging in WvW. They still can but you can no longer buy a gift of battle with badges and that change, I believe, was bad for the game.

It’s always bad for the game when you’re “encouraging” people to spend long amounts of time in content they don’t like.

Ashen.2907:

Since day one the game has gated rewards that interested me behind content that didnt. Armor that incorporated elements not to be found elsewhere in the game are gated behind content that doesnt interest me at all.

But none of that content has the same overhead as raids and very few of those rewards “do something” other rewards don’t.

There are cool looking skins in the game, but they don’t animate when you go into combat. That’s more than just a skin. That’s a thing that nothing else in the game does.

Let’s say you wanted exotic gear. Easy to get. Many ways. You may like a particular skin but there’s no shortage of other skins.

There will be in the game one set of armor that animates in combat.

And then there’s the issue of the buy in. How much you have to do to get any of the other stuff. If I want a legendary weapon, running a dungeon 9 times (and 5 nowadays) is much much easier than every beating a single raid once. Not just in the ease of the content, but in the ability to get into a group, the time needed to invest to set up.

I never had to look at metas to get into dungeon groups or beat dungeons and I never needed to depend on finding a dedicated healer. Ever. Not once. Didn’t need a healer for Arah, didn’t need a healer for TA Aetherblade path, but it’s very hard to do a raid with healing, if possible at all for most people.

At the end of the day the buy in for raids to get this is too high, in spite of the fact that I really want it. But I won’t raid to get it, and that is a problem. Because there’s no alternative path to get it and there’s nothing else in the game that does the same thing.

Even with legendary backpacks they provided a PvP and PvE path.