Guild Wars 2

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

lmao kitten

Is that really the only or best answer you can give me? You can’t think of a single MMORPG that’s not pay to win?

Because that’s the point.

Originally the P2W moniker was aimed to letting people determine games with legit cash shops from more mainstream games that were legit, cash shop or no. A game that was pay to win was a game you had to spend money in the cash shop, because if you didn’t there was content you wouldn’t be doing, not over a month or two, because they’d keep coming out with new tiers of gear, or new buffs you needed and that meant spending money on the cash shop. Repeatedly.

Every game I knew had expansions back then, including Guild Wars 1. Every expansion I can remember raised power somehow, and none of those games were ever called pay to win.

I’m asking you a single legit question. Which MMO today sells in an expansion that isn’t selling power and which of them are called pay to win.

If every single game is pay to win, how is the term useful and what does it help anyone do?

Where is the value of keeping the term at all, if it applies to all games?

Pifil.5193:

Vayne.8563:

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

I presume that question was directed at GBEW and not me.

He believes that getting equipment is pay2win and that doesn’t make sense at all. Getting equipment isn’t winning despite his claims.

Yes, sorry, back from one of my forum bans, and forgot how this thing works. lol

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

The amount of people defending ANet’s decision to stop (postpone indefinitely, w/e) new legendary weapons is astounding. I guess people like to be lied to, or just think that, since they don’t care that much about new legendaries, then it doesn’t matter, not realising that once a payed-for promise is cancelled, others can be cancelled too. Because that is the problem here, this wasn’t something hinted-at, this was a straight-up selling point for the expansion.

Actually, I don’t defend Anet’s decision to do this. I simply acknowledge that in the real world, things can change. If I were making a game and I realized that not enough people were making the new legendaries, but I was spending a relatively large amount of resources to make them, I might well make the same decision Anet made.

There’s a difference between defending the decision and accepting the idea that it might be the right decision, whether I like it or not.

For example, I don’t like ascended gear. I’ve never liked ascended gear. That doesn’t mean it was wrong for Anet to introduced ascended gear into the game.

The situation had changed at launch, people were getting their top level gear and felt they had nothing to work towards and they were leaving. So Anet changed something.

I didn’t like the change, nor did I think it meant Anet were a bunch of liars.

Sometimes, there’s a middle ground. I like to have a reasonable, measured response, because unlike many people, I don’t assume I know the background behind every situation that occurs in game. I don’t know how many people were making legendaries or what problems the team encountered.

The fact is, I enjoy making legendaries and made one of the HoT ones and was looking forward to more legendary weapons. It doesn’t mean I have to feel betrayed, because the decision wasn’t directed at me. It was a decision that didn’t benefit me personally but may well have benefited the game.

I could have jumped up and down and screamed and stamped my foot, but it wouldn’t have done much, because it still could have been better for the game. I just don’t have the information to make that assessment.

From what I can gather, it probably was better for the game over all, even if it wasn’t better for me personally.

Pifil.5193:

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

ok that’s your opinion. doesn’t make it any less pay to win.

And your opinion doesn’t make it any more pay to win.

You still haven’t answered me. By that definition what MMORPG isn’t pay to win?

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

long and short of it is, you cant trust anet to deliver on what they say. this means when trying to figure out if the product is worth it to you, go primarly on what you ve seen in the past, and on the present.
nothing they say regarding future plans really means much

The long and short of it is, Anet has promised hundreds of things and didn’t deliver on a small handful. You should judge everyone you know that way.

It’s a matter of focus.

They also delivered a bunch of stuff I didn’t know about that I really liked.

I’d say, over all, they delivered more than I was expecting, not less.

they were late with tons of things, under delivered on many, and changed their minds on many things.
im not saying they had no reasons, but as far as developers go, they are not top of the list on intentions and what they deliver.

basically, if anet says this is what to expect, take it with a grain of salt. even if they deliver on 80% of what they say, there is still a substantial chance that it may not come to pass. this doesnt mean they should say nothing, just that you got to realize who you are dealing with.

following through on ideas, or schedules is not high on anets priority, their priority is doing whatever they feel is most important in that moment.

there are some people who will show up to a concert in the rain because they said they would, there are others who will cancel because they think concerts in the rain suck for all involved.

like you said, you start to know what to expect when you deal with people after a time, you know who is the former and who is the latter.

Except that the percentage is probably closer to 95% not 80%. If you list everything Anet has EVER said, and you take away what they haven’t delivered it’s a very low percentage.

its actually noticeably larger if you combine
undelivered/changed/exagerrated, which is what most people consider when they weigh someones trustworthyness.

I’m not buying this at all. Not even a little. I mean people tend to hype themselves anyway, without Anet saying anything.

The biggest example is that Anet said straight up this expansion would be lighter on content because they were redeveloping base systems which they’d use moving forward.

Did that really stop people from complaining the expansion was light on content.

I’m sure if you took every single thing promised, all of it and you numbered them, compared to what’s in the game, you’d find that well over 90% it was in the game.

But then, there are many things they never promised that are in the game that are awesome.

Anet did say, for example, that they wouldn’t be able to bring gliding to core Tyria. They changed their mind on that, because they realized they could. But people don’t say they lied, even though the eventual reality of the situation has changed.

And some people didn’t want gliding on core Tyria and complained about it right here on these forums. Maybe those people would think that what Anet was doing was unethical.

I don’t think it was though. Anet made decisions based on a shifting situation. They’ve always said they iterate and change things. They even had an entire blog post about it back in the day. They told us up front how they work.

I signed into this game knowing this was how they work. It’s sort of late to say changing stuff is unethical.

And I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that legendaries are coming back to the game, in a substantially different form. They just needed to retool how they do the quests for them is my guess, which takes time to work out.

Why won’t they say anything about it? Because when they do say stuff and change it, people call them liars and unethical. I wouldn’t say so much either.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

But you don’t need to pay to do that content. That’s the point. You can do that content without paying, or getting ascended gear and you can get ascended gear without paying.

Saying that you can’t do raids with say just ascended jewelry (which you can) is false. P2W had a definition for years. This wasn’kitten

By your definition Guild Wars 1 was pay to win as well, since each expansion gave access to different skills, or even entire professions that weren’t available to people who didn’t have that expansion.

not sure why you keep putting expansion as p2w up, i have never claimed it was. p2w has included paying for power that can be earned through great effort for a long time. it isnt some new thing

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win dated 2011

etc, most definitions of p2w dont exclude things just because it can be gotten in game.

also there is no universal or original accepted definition of p2w, its a word only created in recent times to describe certain game designs.

most discussions i see include buying top teir gear for real money as p2w.

Okay let’s try another angle.

Is WoW pay to win? Is Guild Wars 1 pay to win? What MMOs, by your definition are not pay to win?

GBEW.5947:

How is buying a legendary with your real money not paying to win. do you people just have all these legendary items stocked up in your bank? i don’t care what other people think, i have trouble making the gold to make a legendary or ascended, i can skip this. This is the very definition of winning, and paying for it too. go learn words and stuff, expand your mind you people need it.

You’re talking to the wrong guy. I have 9 legendaries and I don’t pay cash for them. For me, the win is doing the content. Buying it wouldn’t feel the same.

Mitch.4781:

Vayne.8563:

Mitch.4781:

Vayne.8563:

Mitch.4781:

Obtena.7952:

Are you camping the mobs in the right place … Moa’s are not exactly hard to find or in short supply.

Yes. I’m just saying that when the Moa comes on ROTATION I have either not been online or the middle of something else. The point is, it’s an unnecessary drawn out timer rotation for no other reason than to flesh out a very minor event..cos “content”

World bosses are on rotation too. So are most meta events. You can’t plan when a temple in Orr is open. Is that better?

This is a minor content patch not a meta event. Anet said “no more waiting around to have fun” – result = waiting around for “fun”.

Is that better?

When did Anet say no more waiting around to have fun? 6 years ago in the manifesto? Did they say it six months ago?

And you know, there is no more waiting around to have fun, because there are always things to do. If you want to do that think that you have to stand there instead of gathering, and doing local events, you can do that.

But the fact is you’re right. This is a minor event. It’s not a requirement to play the game. It only gives you achievement points. It’s not something you have to do anyway. It doesn’t lock you out of anything.

As with all achievements, some take longer, some are harder, some are just grind because that’s the nature of achievements. No one makes you get shield master, but you can get it if you want it bad enough.

No one is forcing you to do any event.

I honestly do believe these events could have been more “friendly” to players, but I’m not sure why it’s such a big deal that they aren’t.

Of course, since I got the entire achievement the first day with my guild, I’m not waiting around at all anymore.

Actually Mike O’Brien said it 5 months ago. Seeing as you worship the Altar of Anet , I’m surprised you don’t remember; but blind devotion often misty’s the waters somewhat. It’s also irrelevant when it was said. You’re advocating that it is actually ok NOW to wait around to have fun? That’s an interesting logic.

And no, it doesn’t give you just AP, you get the mask too which is rather the point. Of course no one is forcing us to do anything but that’s such a bogus defence of a poorly implemented event. If everyone had that attitude we wouldn’t be playing the game at all! The fact is, it IS in the game with a decent reward so why put a pointless timegate around it that just annoys people? If you’re going to do something, why not make it fun instead of frustrating? It’s the same with the snipers in Bloodstone that hit you while you’re in mid flight and you can plummet to your death. Just what was the point of that? All it does is irritate the player base.

But your last line kinda sums it up. You got it first day with your guild so you can’t see or don’t care how the event would pan out for people that didn’t. You know as well as I do, if you don’t get the done the first week or two, it’s hard to get people to help you. Who does the legendary bandits now? It’s ironic anyways, because you still had to adhere to the same timer as everyone else so you did indeed have to wait lol.

No, I’m saying you don’t have to wait around to have fun still, but you may have to wait around to get certain specific achievements. Not sure why it’s so hard for people to realize that if you insist on getting absolutely everything in a game, some things aren’t going to be to your taste. Some things may require grinding. Some things may require waiting.

But what can’t you do, exactly by not waiting around? What areas of the game are locked off from you.

The answer is nothing.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

wether a cost is up front or recurring doesnt change the cost. 5-6 weeks of 3 hours a day is not considered a small investment for most people.

many would actually prefer the recurring over the up front (credit)

anyhow point is you can get to this games end goals, through long term time spent, or you can pay and advance straight to the end, and compete, or cooperate at the same level, with people who spent an extra few hundred hours playing than you have.

but that option is only available for those who pay.

But you don’t need to pay to do that content. That’s the point. You can do that content without paying, or getting ascended gear and you can get ascended gear without paying.

Saying that you can’t do raids with say just ascended jewelry (which you can) is false. P2W had a definition for years. This wasn’kitten

By your definition Guild Wars 1 was pay to win as well, since each expansion gave access to different skills, or even entire professions that weren’t available to people who didn’t have that expansion.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

sophiewhite.3149:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

if wow is p2w it is p2w. not all mmos sell currency.
legendaries do provide an advantage, they are top teir gear with stat switching capabilities, i have used it again and again. it gives me an advantage over exotics, and even ascended.

but i am including ascended because it is of signifigant time and effort to obtain a full set.

winning in game is not only defined as beating another player.

im not talking about weather p2w is popular, or evil, im talking about if it exists in this game

took me a week to farm everything needed for a ascended weapon. “significant” LOL

a weapon is 1/12 of what you need to be max stat so yeah, 12 weeks to catch up is pretty signifigant for a lot of players.

even though due to overlap, id say if you know what you are doing and play 3 hours a day, you can probably cut it to 5-6 weeks, which is pretty signifigant for a lot of people.

Except that without a gear treadmill it hardly matters. Also, the longer something takes to get the less difference it makes statwise. It’s fast and easy to get trinkets which are largely free and can’t be bought at all.

It’s takes a bit longer ot make weapons. It takes a lot longer to make armor but armor gives you the smallest buff over all.

And, unlike most games, you get it once, and you have it. You don’t have to get a new set every six months.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

i never said expansions are pay2win, but thats an entirely new discussion, because the nature of monetization has changed.

back in the day there were few free games that were designed to make money. it was understood you were always going to have to buy games. for many today this is no longer assumed to be true.

the reality is nothing is really “free” and at some point money is going to come into the equation.
pay to win is most likely going to be in any long term game without a subscription(and some with subscriptions) because people tend to be willing to pay for things that increase value. The simplest way to give value in any game is to increase your liklihood of winning.

as far as f2p goes, its becoming not a question of p2w, but more a question of how much p2w can exist while still making the game profitable.

People’s assumptions may have changed. But that doesn’t change the original definition of what pay to win means. Pay to win had a meaning. You could buy power for cash in the cash shop. That’s just not true here. You can’t make it easier to get power, but you can’t buy power.

And you can get all the same stuff by playing in game.

The problem is the original words pay to win had a definition that comes with an implication. You can change the definition but if you can’t get rid of the implication than comes with it, you’re maligning a company for no reason.

Since it never included expansions, if you decide to include them now you pretty much have to include everyone and that means every MMORPG is pay to win. If that’s the case the original value of the words is gone.

It was designed to let people know this game is not a legitimate product because you’d get some sort of competitive edge from paying cash that you couldn’t earn in game.

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

Mitch.4781:

Vayne.8563:

Mitch.4781:

Obtena.7952:

Are you camping the mobs in the right place … Moa’s are not exactly hard to find or in short supply.

Yes. I’m just saying that when the Moa comes on ROTATION I have either not been online or the middle of something else. The point is, it’s an unnecessary drawn out timer rotation for no other reason than to flesh out a very minor event..cos “content”

World bosses are on rotation too. So are most meta events. You can’t plan when a temple in Orr is open. Is that better?

This is a minor content patch not a meta event. Anet said “no more waiting around to have fun” – result = waiting around for “fun”.

Is that better?

When did Anet say no more waiting around to have fun? 6 years ago in the manifesto? Did they say it six months ago?

And you know, there is no more waiting around to have fun, because there are always things to do. If you want to do that think that you have to stand there instead of gathering, and doing local events, you can do that.

But the fact is you’re right. This is a minor event. It’s not a requirement to play the game. It only gives you achievement points. It’s not something you have to do anyway. It doesn’t lock you out of anything.

As with all achievements, some take longer, some are harder, some are just grind because that’s the nature of achievements. No one makes you get shield master, but you can get it if you want it bad enough.

No one is forcing you to do any event.

I honestly do believe these events could have been more “friendly” to players, but I’m not sure why it’s such a big deal that they aren’t.

Of course, since I got the entire achievement the first day with my guild, I’m not waiting around at all anymore.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

long and short of it is, you cant trust anet to deliver on what they say. this means when trying to figure out if the product is worth it to you, go primarly on what you ve seen in the past, and on the present.
nothing they say regarding future plans really means much

The long and short of it is, Anet has promised hundreds of things and didn’t deliver on a small handful. You should judge everyone you know that way.

It’s a matter of focus.

They also delivered a bunch of stuff I didn’t know about that I really liked.

I’d say, over all, they delivered more than I was expecting, not less.

they were late with tons of things, under delivered on many, and changed their minds on many things.
im not saying they had no reasons, but as far as developers go, they are not top of the list on intentions and what they deliver.

basically, if anet says this is what to expect, take it with a grain of salt. even if they deliver on 80% of what they say, there is still a substantial chance that it may not come to pass. this doesnt mean they should say nothing, just that you got to realize who you are dealing with.

following through on ideas, or schedules is not high on anets priority, their priority is doing whatever they feel is most important in that moment.

there are some people who will show up to a concert in the rain because they said they would, there are others who will cancel because they think concerts in the rain suck for all involved.

like you said, you start to know what to expect when you deal with people after a time, you know who is the former and who is the latter.

Except that the percentage is probably closer to 95% not 80%. If you list everything Anet has EVER said, and you take away what they haven’t delivered it’s a very low percentage.

Roquen.5406:

Vayne.8563:

Where are they advertising a full set of legendaries? They said there would be new legendaries in HoT and there are. They mentioned the new set of legendaries before launch, but not since as far as I know.

Yes they made a decision to do something better for the game. You may not like the decision but I’m sure it wasn’t taken lightly. They know their situation better than we do.

Honestly don’t want to dispute this with you and seeing as how long you’ve been around here, both GW and the forums, I’m surprised you sit there and claim they never did that.

Legendary weapons were a pretty big selling point for a good chunk of people. Anet promised a full set… in 2013, decided to “scrap” that system (if they even ever started it) and then pushed them back. Come HoT announcement they state that the full new set would be released. They posted presale online and allowed people to fully purchase HoT beforehand while listing a bunch of the content, one of those being a full set of you guessed it – legendaries.

The closer it got to HoT the more their stance on legendaries began to change. Aka…just 16 then small batches then just 3 then just 1 more and indefinitely postponed.

So yes, they did promise a full set and no they didn’t deliver. Due to all the backlash they started changing everything that mentioned a full-set but people have those screenshots and I’m sure you can dredge it up somewhere.

You can believe whatever you want but that doesn’t change the fact that this did occur.

Bit of revisionist history and some assumptions in there. Anet was going to release stuff with the living story when it wrote that article. The playerbase insisted on an expansion. And yes, insisted is the right word. The outcry for the expansion was very loud.

If Anet didn’t take what they were developing for the LS and put it in the expansion at that point, the expansion would have taken a lot longer to produce.

They wrote an article saying things might change and they did change. If people choose to ignore the disclaimer, that’s their own lookout.

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

Mitch.4781:

Obtena.7952:

Are you camping the mobs in the right place … Moa’s are not exactly hard to find or in short supply.

Yes. I’m just saying that when the Moa comes on ROTATION I have either not been online or the middle of something else. The point is, it’s an unnecessary drawn out timer rotation for no other reason than to flesh out a very minor event..cos “content”

World bosses are on rotation too. So are most meta events. You can’t plan when a temple in Orr is open. Is that better?

phys.7689:

long and short of it is, you cant trust anet to deliver on what they say. this means when trying to figure out if the product is worth it to you, go primarly on what you ve seen in the past, and on the present.
nothing they say regarding future plans really means much

The long and short of it is, Anet has promised hundreds of things and didn’t deliver on a small handful. You should judge everyone you know that way.

It’s a matter of focus.

They also delivered a bunch of stuff I didn’t know about that I really liked.

I’d say, over all, they delivered more than I was expecting, not less.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Colin did say, in a PAX interview, that the precursor crafting aspect of legendaries would be added in 2013 as an absolute. No caveats, no disclaimers. Absolute, without exception.

But plans do change.
Understood.

I still consider it to be unethical to advertise something as part of an expansion in order to generate sales and then cancel that element after receiving payment.

Unethical if it’s intended. Not unethical of unforseen circumstances arise. In my opinion of course.

Understood.

Still it was a conscious, “intended,” decision to pull the six man legendary team. It was an intended decision to tie any refunds of HoT to a sacrifice of one’s core game access (has this stance changed?). It even appeared to be an intended decision to continue advertising legendaries after the decision to not deliver them.

Where are they advertising a full set of legendaries? They said there would be new legendaries in HoT and there are. They mentioned the new set of legendaries before launch, but not since as far as I know.

Yes they made a decision to do something better for the game. You may not like the decision but I’m sure it wasn’t taken lightly. They know their situation better than we do.

Respawns can be annoying but it’s hard to adjust the timer so it’s perfect for everyone. And anywhere something respawns, it’s going to be a problem for someone. You can’t program stuff to not respawn near a person because sometimes there are lots of people around and there’s be nothing spawning in the area.

I’ve not played a game that found a good solution for this…unless it’s instanced of course.

Ashen.2907:

Colin did say, in a PAX interview, that the precursor crafting aspect of legendaries would be added in 2013 as an absolute. No caveats, no disclaimers. Absolute, without exception.

But plans do change.
Understood.

I still consider it to be unethical to advertise something as part of an expansion in order to generate sales and then cancel that element after receiving payment.

Unethical if it’s intended. Not unethical of unforseen circumstances arise. In my opinion of course.

Linken.6345:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

No they actualy have a point here, other mmos the one who are level 100 dont battle in spvp maps with people who are 90 or lower.

But a unlimitied free to try shouldent be considerered pay to win if all they have to do is pay for the game.
Same as everyone else to be 100% competetive in spvp.

Edit
Also anet should have seperate que´s for hot and none hot accounts (it would eliminiate the presived pay to win)

You mean like in open world PvP which many games have? And there are other advantages besides just levels, like hte ability to twink lower level characters. It’s not all about just raising the level cap.

I’ve never seen a game that doesn’t give you an advantage to buying the new game in some form of competition.

Shovel Face.4512:

vesica tempestas.1563:

if a developer carried on with tunnel vision and only ever built what they discussed at some point in the past then their ability to react to present customer needs would be nil. Strangely the people that complain still play the very same product they have played for the last 3 years including the content that was made instead of those 3 year old legendaries that were discussed. Still for some it seems a good excuse to declare they will no longer support the game in the future (why?) and yet they will still play it which means actually they still enjoy same content. The modern take take take never be happy with what you have people are delightful.

Are you being contrary just for the heck of it? I don’t seem to quite understand what your point is with this post. If you’re saying that “it’s ok for a company to go back on its statements, not deliver to what customers paid for and we should just settle” then it’s people like you I dislike the most.

Of course, if people read the statement, such as the part where it said this was all subject to change, because we iterate, that would certainly make it easier for Anet to say things.

Why quote the part of the article you wanted to quote, and ignore the part of the article that got changed? Seems to me that saying we’re going to do this but it may change isn’t a promise and not doing something they say may change doesn’t make them liars.

People use hyperbole to make the company look bad. There are things Anet have done that were definitely mistakes. But saying someone is lying without quoting the whole article is at the very least misleading.

Glad you got it done. I’ve spent a lot of time in TD lately finishing my last HoT collection, the chak weapons and I’ve completed the meta about 50% of the times I attemped it, so about 3 out of 6.

There were people trying the other 3 times, but one lane always failed.

The game needs to message better what needs to be done, I think.

Just as a side note, if you don’t care about rewards at all and just care about story, anyone with the living story can take you through it for free. You won’t get anything from that but story, but it is an option.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

That’s looking at things from a mechanics point of view, not an immersion point of view. Those who focus on mechanics can see roles any way they want. But I’ve read a whole lot of fantasy in my life, and there are very few hard and fast roles in fantasy.

Roles are, and have always been limiting. Even something like character classes in games like D&D (pen and paper) were simply game mechanics to maintain power. Magic users in D&D couldn’t use swords in the original game, even though Gandalf did. Why? Because if a magic user could use a sword, there’s be little benefit in becoming a warrior.

Later pen and paper games, like Runequest did away with the need for character classes. They were less contrived.

It’s okay to like tanking. But it’s not “just a role”. It’s a mechanic upon which entire areas of games were based. It was a REQUIRED role. That’s the real issue.

There’s a very big difference between being tanky and being a tank.

To each their own I guess. Everything has limits and where you see bigger limits in assigning roles, I see definition and purpose. And I could be wrong but I’ve seen people discuss raid content in GW2 and there it seems that it may not be tanks or healers but there are favoured classes that people require.

Now we can argue the difference between the game requiring something or players requiring something but the end result is the same. It may not be tanks that are required but there is class elitism going on there from what I can tell. It’s just the nature of the content.

SWTOR has a much better approach to it where all classes that can tank can also dps so you can choose and switch between those roles. Also tanking there is very different from what you described in your example of MMO tanking. Just to indicate that not all MMOs approach the trinity in the same way.

I quite like tanking there actually. Though I am primarily a healer. I quite enjoyed that in GW1 as well. Particularly a protection monk and yeah I miss real healer classes in GW2. That’s probably the main reason group content is unappealing to me in GW2.

They had that approach in Rift too. Many classes could play the role. But if you played one of those professions, because it was required, other people would insist you tank if you were good at it. Actually for me it was healing but it was the same thing.

At the end of the day, I ended up healing on my DPS cleric more than I did anything else. And I hated it.

And yes, there’s one major difference between a game requiring something and a community requiring it.

If the game requires it, you have to do it. You can always hook up with a group of like minded players if the game doesn’t though. Just like I have people that like to heal in my guild and I run dungeons with them, even though I know it would be more efficient if they ran zerker.

I’m happy they’re playing what they want. How could I do that if the game required everyone to DPS?

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t pay to win, because anyone can get that stuff without taking out a credit card. Hell you can’t even buy ascended armor, weapons or trinkets.

Trinkets anyone can get through fractals, guild missions and laurels. Weapons and armor are crafted, or drops.

Even if you pay money you still have to play the game to get dragonite ore, empyreal fragments and bloodstone.

You have to get your crafting professions to 500.

It’s faster if you break out a credit card, but many of us farmed and had plenty of mats leading up to the release of weapons and armor.

I know I made all that stuff without breaking out my wallet and I had it pretty fast.

Not sure how you think that’s pay to win.

And by staying relevant I do mean buying the stuff you need to compete in end game content.

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

OriOri.8724:

I think that TD is a horribly confusing map. Don’t get me wrong, I still get lost sometimes in VB trying to get to outposts and certain parts of the canopy during the daytime but its only because I don’t visit those places as much as I should. TD though I can walk to a HP, and 10 min later when there is actually a party willing to help with it I can’t find my way back. I am always getting lost on that map.

As for the poison mastery, I do know why people hated content being “gated” behind it and I share that feeling. But at the same time now that its nerfed it feels like a useless mastery that is only used for map completion, which I also hate. Hopefully ANet can avoid introducing any masteries like this again, where it either creates an artificial gate to accessing various key parts of maps or its only used for map completion and nothing else.

Poison mastery is not just for map completion. There are events that you need to do in Dragonstand during the meta that require poison mastery to complete. They give mastery points.

Corvinus.8634:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

It’s just a role. It’s the ultimate protector role. You keep your party safe, as long as you do that job right. boss + adds can be fun to manage, do it well and you save everyone. If they also do their role well. Your comment is ludicrous. There are many reasons holy trinity games have been as popular as they have, people being able to choose a role they want to play in what is advertised as a RPG game is one of them – obviously.

Doing that role well and being good at it, as well as continuing improving it with stats, gear, and further new content is of course rewarding.

That’s looking at things from a mechanics point of view, not an immersion point of view. Those who focus on mechanics can see roles any way they want. But I’ve read a whole lot of fantasy in my life, and there are very few hard and fast roles in fantasy.

Roles are, and have always been limiting. Even something like character classes in games like D&D (pen and paper) were simply game mechanics to maintain power. Magic users in D&D couldn’t use swords in the original game, even though Gandalf did. Why? Because if a magic user could use a sword, there’s be little benefit in becoming a warrior.

Later pen and paper games, like Runequest did away with the need for character classes. They were less contrived.

It’s okay to like tanking. But it’s not “just a role”. It’s a mechanic upon which entire areas of games were based. It was a REQUIRED role. That’s the real issue.

There’s a very big difference between being tanky and being a tank.

GBEW.5947:

Vayne.8563:

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

That is a fair point, However i still like my eternity and i still think it should have value.

I like my minipets, but that doesn’t mean getting them means I’m winning.

GBEW.5947:

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t count buying in game gold because with RMT sites, anyone can buy in game gold. All that official channels provide is letting the studio/publisher in on a slice of that market.

This is the best point against my opinion that i have seen however in games that dont have this option, buying gold is generally frowned upon and there is multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.
i for one really enjoy the idea of the people behind the game profiting rather than some kitten in taiwan so don’t get me wrong it definitly has its strong points, But for those of us that don’t want to spend absurd amounts of money that i quite frankly need to cover insurance, Bills, gas, food, diapers etc. i just can’t even if i did want too.
Which makes me think it is little kittened up that someone can buy the game, make a brand new character, and buy themselves all the legendary items. The argument for this that i have seen however is that legendary items arent any better than ascended, to that i say screw you. Legendary items are the pinnacle of pve rewards and you should never be able to just simply buy them with actual money, However with the way the game is right now i also think you should be able to buy them with in game gold. So this is impossible i know. It still is FACT that legendaries are sought after pieces most spend quite some time to obtain. If you don’t think this is winning then i don’t know what else to say to you.

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

Buy HoT, instant 80. lol

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

You can skip the grind, but you still have to craft the armor. Some people like the grind. I have three full sets of ascended on different characters and I did it without selling gems or spending real life money. Therefore you can win without paying.

More to the point, because content isn’t locked out by not having that gear (as it is in MMOs that are actually pay to win), it’s not that much of an inconvenience.

In other words, you pay to accelerate, not pay to win. There’s a difference. There are games out there where the best gear in the game can only be bought.

In the Guild Wars 2 system, time is inversely proportional to money. You can spend time, or money or both. This doesn’t affect SPvP at all, which is the main competitive mode of the game.

In other games, you can buy gold and buy stuff too, even if it’s illegal.

This doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 pay to win. You’re paying for convenience.

I mean no one I know called Guild Wars pay to win and they sold actual skill packs. This continual shifting of the pay to win bar accomplishes nothing.

Every MMO that has gold-sellers is pay to win then too. lol

The problem here is messaging. Players that know the game find this stuff easy. Players who don’t know what to do or how to do it, they find it impossible.

The problem is too many people are finding it impossible. It’s obviously not, since people get it done, but the sheer number of people who don’t know indicates a deep problem.

There’s nothing in game that really explains what T4 is, or how to get to T4. There’s no message that pops up that says in game a meta is coming, you might want to check your looking for group tool.

Instead, players have to depend on external timer sites, wikis, reddit, and the official forums.

This shouldn’t be acceptable. You shouldn’t need a degree in Guild Wars to participate in a zone event.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

The need for a zerg to pretty much progress and succeed in the overall map. Please note the many topics that say progression is impossible now that said map is empty.

With Bloodstone Fen, you can progress regardless if you’re the only person on the map or if a zerg is killing everything. Failure for events isn’t so brutally punishing. Key areas are not blocked from mapping or exploration if a certain criteria is not met. Certain tools are not required to farm nodes in that map. Multiple groups spread out to complete an event isn’t required in multiple locations. Finding a location isn’t crazy confusing or frustrating. Gaining access to a location doesn’t require a specific skill beyond basic gliding or mushroom hopping. Gaining access to a mastery point doesn’t require a specific mastery unlock. Nothing is locked behind a kitten-near impossible adventure. No adventures . . . period. No gather ‘this amount of ’X’ to progress an event. No waypoint is ever contested because of failure to ‘save it’ or reclaim it from said targets. No waypoint is contested . . . ever.

Just to start. . . .

I’ve seen these topics, about impossible progression. It’s flat out wrong. People want to make progress playing the way they always played, and that they probably can’t do. In MMOs the name of the game is adaptation. If you can’t adapt, you’ll not get very far.

There are topics that say you can’t beat a necro in PvP ,but I beat necros in PvP all the time. Just because many topics exist that say something doesn’t really mean that much.

On topic: I don’t think HoT is the future for Guild Wars 2. While it works for one segment of the playerbase, you’d have to be blind to not see that it didn’t hit home with many other segments of the playerbase.

HoT has some glaring issues, some of which were corrected in the April patch, but many of which weren’t.

At the end of the day, I can’t really believe Anet will make another HoT after the way HOT has been received.

Djinn.9245:

WhiteKnight.6759:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

I’m of the opinion if you’re asking this question. . . ? You already know the answer. But I’m not getting into the debate about LFG, taxiing, and those other excuses.

No, Sir, not again, thank you.

I’m afraid I don’t understand this post.

I’ll bite: GW2 has a system where multiple maps are available for the same zone. Yet you can often wander a zone and not see a single other character. I have also been in a zone and had a request pop up that I depart the map because it has too few players and the same request in that zone 15 minute later, etc. The point being that while it is possible to find an instance through LFG that has enough people to do the meta, the fact that you can’t find enough people organically by just being in the zone means that there IS a lack of people in the zone.

Oh, okay thanks.

This hasn’t really been my experience, but thanks for clearing it up.

Out of all the metas, TD seems to be the one completed the least though. This is mostly due to lack of organization. You need probably 40 people to complete TD. You have to get 10 people in each lane, and they have to know what to do.

Since AB has the multiloot though, its so profitable by comparison than people never leave. Pretty much the same with DS. It’s pretty profitable.

I’ve always found the TD map currency the hardest to come by.

Solori.6025:

Vayne.8563:

Solori.6025:

Vayne.8563:

Aside from that the expansion launch was botched. Not the expansion itself. The expansion itself isn’t as bad as you’d lead us to believe, in my opinion.

I actually think the expansion wasn’t that great. No one ( in my opinion) likes to grind just to do content.
But that’s just me being bitter about that…still….

Vayne.8563:

Without knowing if sales would have been higher or lower without the expansion you have no argument.

I disagree.
The thing about the business world is that you don’t get second chances.
You dont get a “what if”

The sales before were higher before the expansion. We can all agree the numbers tell that fact. It is. indisputably. a fact.

The sales were at an all time low after the expansion.

Now that was 2015- All time low-
From 2012-2014 the numbers never got that low
But last year 2015
All time low.

You cannot say that it wasn’t because of HoT, not when the game was released in 2012 and the numbers NEVER got that low(according to the report) BEFORE HoT.

The numbers, the report, the sales AND the history pretty much point this on the release of this expansion.

There’s absolutely nothing to disagree with. This is factual.

You can’t know how well something would have done had you not done it. That’s my point..

And I agree, You will never know if something would succeed unless you do it. But if it fails, then it fails.

Vayne.8563:

That is to say without an expansion those numbers could be lower than they are now. There really is no way to know.

That’s a “what if”
The fact is, they released the expansion.
The numbers are in fact lower.
The expansion did not do well for the company.
That’s a fact.

Vayne.8563:

You can say the expansion launched and numbers went down. What you can’t prove is how much they would have gone down if the expansion hadn’t launched. It’s simply not provable.

I agree, but that isn’t the reality.
That is also not pertinent to the discussion at hand.
The expansion launched, the numbers went down.
Years before that, No expansion, the numbers stayed up.
That’s a fact. That can be proven with quarterly reports.
This expansion was not successful.
This is proven in this report.

Vayne.8563:

Edit: A baseball manager brings in a pinch hitter. He drives in 1 run. They lose the game anyway. That doesn’t mean if they hadn’t brought in that pinch hitter, they wouldnt’ have 1 more run than they ended up with. There really is no way to know.

Better analogy.
A baseball team has had a seasoned pitcher for 2 years
They havent lost a game.
The baseball manager decides he wants a new pitcher.
The lose the next game considerably.

Now. History has shown that the Veteran has had a higher success rate that the noobs.
Had the baseball manager kept the veteran in. There is a higher chance they would have won. History shows and validates that record.
But he didn’t. He chose the noob.
They lost because of his choice.

Look it’s a question of relativity.

We know that the expansion didn’t raise revenue past the two quarters it raised revenue. But then we don’t know what the revenue would have been like if the expansion had never been announced. It’s entirely possible the revenue would have been less for the entire period.

The idea that a 4 year old game is going to continue making the same money without an expansion is like betting a a pitcher with a lower era.

Sales were gradually going lower because the game was getting older. The expansion raised the sales for two quarters, then there was a dip. It’s only one quarter, and not enough to show a trend.

The expansion is 9 months old. The expansion likely raised the intake of the company or two quarters.

9 months is a really long time for an expansion to keep pulling without more content added to it, which is not the expansion itself.

Look at WoW subscriptions 9 months after their expansions come out. There’s a huge number of people leaving. That doesn’t mean their expansions didn’t raise revenue. It just means people played the expansion and stopped playing after they did everything in the expansion they wanted to do.

That 9 month mark is a lot of pressure to put on an MMO expansion.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Mitch.4781:

Aidenwolf.5964:

But what made me play GW was the freedom to do what I wanted solo, in a group, whatever. That all died with HoT.

What exactly could you solo before that you now cannot? How did that die exactly?

Without a Taxi go in to any HoT map and complete the meta. The maps are built like mass co-op encounters. I ran all over the world pre HoT and never bothered with servers, it’s a complete shift.

Taxi-ing has been a thing for a long time. Maybe you don’t remember when servers were seperate and you needed an open temple of balthazar, but I do. I remember having to change servers to get into that map.

I remember how many failed attempts there were at the marionette if you couldn’t get into your home server. You may not remember that, but I certainly do.

And I don’t know any way to do Triple Trouble without getting onto a server that was doing it with a large, organized group.

I remember using server switches to get to unbugged temples and events as well.

I’ve been switching servers almost since launch. Even down to getting a free switch to another WvW server to finally complete the world, because we were the same color ever week.

Yes, it’s more often now. But it’s not like server swapping was just introduced yesterday either.

In fact, for a year or more now, people have been using it to get into silver wastes maps about to do the breach event, or T4 or higher Dry Top servers.

Edit: With the advent of the upgraded LFG tool, server, taxi-ing to an active map is pretty kitten ed easy. It might annoy you, but I don’t really see why anyone would have an issue with it.

I’ve been here every minute you have. Day One minus 3.

Well then it’s not a complete shift. lol

This game fits my style of play perfectly. I hate doing one thing. I start doing something, get distracted by something else and the next thing you know…oh look, a squirrel.

Seriously. I go to farm some wood, because I need a lot of wood. So I’m in a zone and suddenly there’s an event I like. I follow the event and it leads to jumping puzzle I haven’t done in ages and I say wow, I should do that. Then I do the jumping puzzle and someone calls out in map chat that a meta event boss is up, so I go do that.

By the end of the day I’ve gathered no wood, but I’m happy anyway.

This is my kind of game. lol

Aidenwolf.5964:

Mitch.4781:

Aidenwolf.5964:

But what made me play GW was the freedom to do what I wanted solo, in a group, whatever. That all died with HoT.

What exactly could you solo before that you now cannot? How did that die exactly?

Without a Taxi go in to any HoT map and complete the meta. The maps are built like mass co-op encounters. I ran all over the world pre HoT and never bothered with servers, it’s a complete shift.

Taxi-ing has been a thing for a long time. Maybe you don’t remember when servers were seperate and you needed an open temple of balthazar, but I do. I remember having to change servers to get into that map.

I remember how many failed attempts there were at the marionette if you couldn’t get into your home server. You may not remember that, but I certainly do.

And I don’t know any way to do Triple Trouble without getting onto a server that was doing it with a large, organized group.

I remember using server switches to get to unbugged temples and events as well.

I’ve been switching servers almost since launch. Even down to getting a free switch to another WvW server to finally complete the world, because we were the same color ever week.

Yes, it’s more often now. But it’s not like server swapping was just introduced yesterday either.

In fact, for a year or more now, people have been using it to get into silver wastes maps about to do the breach event, or T4 or higher Dry Top servers.

Edit: With the advent of the upgraded LFG tool, server, taxi-ing to an active map is pretty kitten ed easy. It might annoy you, but I don’t really see why anyone would have an issue with it.

Solori.6025:

Vayne.8563:

Aside from that the expansion launch was botched. Not the expansion itself. The expansion itself isn’t as bad as you’d lead us to believe, in my opinion.

I actually think the expansion wasn’t that great. No one ( in my opinion) likes to grind just to do content.
But that’s just me being bitter about that…still….

Vayne.8563:

Without knowing if sales would have been higher or lower without the expansion you have no argument.

I disagree.
The thing about the business world is that you don’t get second chances.
You dont get a “what if”

The sales before were higher before the expansion. We can all agree the numbers tell that fact. It is. indisputably. a fact.

The sales were at an all time low after the expansion.

Now that was 2015- All time low-
From 2012-2014 the numbers never got that low
But last year 2015
All time low.

You cannot say that it wasn’t because of HoT, not when the game was released in 2012 and the numbers NEVER got that low(according to the report) BEFORE HoT.

The numbers, the report, the sales AND the history pretty much point this on the release of this expansion.

There’s absolutely nothing to disagree with. This is factual.

You can’t know how well something would have done had you not done it. That’s my point.

That is to say without an expansion those numbers could be lower than they are now. There really is no way to know.

That’s factual.

You can say the expansion launched and numbers went down. What you can’t prove is how much they would have gone down if the expansion hadn’t launched. It’s simply not provable.

There really is no way to disagree with that. And that’s my point.

Edit: A baseball manager brings in a pinch hitter. He drives in 1 run. They lose the game anyway. That doesn’t mean if they hadn’t brought in that pinch hitter, they wouldnt’ have 1 more run than they ended up with. There really is no way to know.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Not a trend? Watch next quarter

I will. My guess is it will be higher than this quarter. I guess we’ll see.

Edit: Assuming the next quarter encompasses the 2 week half price sale, and the launch of LS 3 which I believe it does.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

The income this quarter is down that’s true. But that doesn’t mean the expansion and free to play are the cause of it. I daresay the way Anet handled the launch of the expansion has far more to do with it. That’s my opinion.

I can’t prove it any more than you can prove your theory.

But you see… I have.

The game makes less post xpac than pre xpac FACT.

You aren’t required to agree and I’d be disappointed if you did, you’ve worked hard backing any direction Anet wanted to take this game.

Math is Proof.

Math doesn’t prove the expansion caused it. Math only proves it’s lower. Assuming the direction of the game instead of say the price of the expansion, or the bad publicity surrounding the decision not to include a character slot…that’s a guess.

Not a fact.

Again with semantics when presented with fact.

The point of an xpac is to increase revenue, fact.
(that’s indisputable)

The game makes less money post HoT, fact.
(that’s indisputable)

Argue the game’s in better shape than ever before all you like but Anet is a business and business isn’t booming, fact.

Fact: You don’t know how much this game would be doing if there had never been an expansion. It could have increased sales beyond what sales would have existed.

That’s your logical fallacy. Can you prove that this game would have remained stable and not fallen if they continued in the same direction that had originally or continued the living story. That’s an assumption.

The fact is you have no real knowledge about whether or not we’re better off now at this point in time than we would be if the expansion had never launched. It’s a guess.

Any business expendature that does not raise revenue is money wasted. If you can’t agree to that then never reply to me again. I’m too old to debate 1+1=2

There’s nothing to debate. This is flat out wrong. There are many business expenses that are necessary and don’t increase profit short term, but do increase profit long term. Anyone can see that.

We’ve had exactly one single bad quarter. That’s it. The but two quarters preceding were better. We don’t have a trend.

You’re saying if you make a business decision and have one bad quarter it’s a mistake. Maybe you don’t know as much about business as you think you do.

Aside from that the expansion launch was botched. Not the expansion itself. The expansion itself isn’t as bad as you’d lead us to believe, in my opinion.

If they botched the pricing,. or the dungeon nerf, or what’s included, that’s called a mistake. But it doesn’t mean the expansion is the reason for the mistake directly. It means other decisions affected sales.

Without knowing if sales would have been higher or lower without the expansion you have no argument.