Showing Posts For Yshyr.8709:
1. Remove teleports. Being able to port to your spawn or to upgraded keeps allows a single zerg to effectively surf the map. Disabling teleports makes it critical to split your forces up so you don’t wind up losing everything you own while your 80 man zerg is taking a supply camp on the other side of the map.
2. Increase the amount of people needed to mark any objective as under attack. make it so 10 people can attack any objective and no swords will appear on the map. (Honestly, I would prefer to just remove the map indicators entirely. These maps are not so large that you need neon signs to find someone to fight.)
Either of those suggestions should help split up the zerg a bit without altering the combat aspects of the game. Sure you can zerg it up and face roll across the map, but you will probably lose more than you gain.
3. Change the maps. Eb can remain the same, one zergy battlefield should be enough. The borders, however, have an incredible amount of wasted space. With orbs gone fighting rarely occurs in the northern parts of the map. Between pve areas, the ridiculously large home team spawn camp, and the lake half the map really isn’t even used.
I imagine the lake is hard to let go of but if you are going to have a successful long term game you have to be willing to admit when something is not working as intended. Very, very little combat occurs in the lake. You can either revamp underwater combat and try to find something a majority of people find more enjoyable or you can fill the lakes in. Either way you will greatly increase the area used for fighting.
4. Put in a group option for 10, 15, or 20 players. If you design a larger group size and incorporate that into the ui, then people will naturally switch to using that size group.
To those arguing what we have currently is in anyway tactical….. sorry opening you map and running your 80 man herd to the nearest orange swords or contested objective is not tactical.
Yep, i have found that just ignoring problems makes them go away.
/sarcasm
This is a major problem right now. The more said about it the better. Take a peak at this weeks scores. Not one match is even remotely competitive.
This is an interesting problem which is really hurting the game especially in wvw. Shutting down transfers completely, or even adding a price tag to transfer will effectively lock the servers into their current unbalanced state. My suggestion for how to deal with transfers.
First transfers need to be limited. Each account needs to be limited to transferring once a month at most. Second transfer costs should be relative to the rank of the server in question. The first place server should have all transfers blocked. No one should be able to transfer on to it, but you can transfer off. As you go down the rankings the cost of transferring to that server should be less until you hit the bottom servers where transfers should be free.
The limit on transfers will help stabilize server populations. The sliding scale will encourage players to move to lower ranked servers as opposed to stacking the top tier servers.
I’m done reading this thread for a bit.
Too many people being so negative and making all players/guilds who have joined SoR in the past 3 weeks or so seem like they are worth less, and the only people who matter are ones who were here from the start.
Thanks to some of my fellow SoR members for making me feel this way.
@YB and GoM, I hope you guys get your moral back, seems like SoR is having issues from the inside out. You two might be able to use it to your advantage somehow.
Don’t let the forum crap get to you. you guys have been a very nice addition to sor. I can’t stand to sit in a queue for more than 10 minutes so i am the last person to blame you guys for leaving the massive queues on the top servers.
I do have to admit that I am enjoying the spectacle of the new guilds trying to organize a server which is almost militant in it’s disorganization.
I doubt that SOR is going to suddenly be overrun by queue times. Vigilance was originally going to join Jade Quarry so we could play with Tempest Wolves and the rest, but decided we would rather go with SOR so we could be sure and get the entire guild into the mists without massive queues. They are easily some of the best pvp guilds there are. Which makes them a huge boon to SOR and we are very happy we get to fight alongside them.
Even if we move up it will be another month before we make it to the top tiers. Hopefully enough time for AN to shut down transfers.
Make badges auto loot into your inventory upon a kill and I will happily accept an anti-farming code. Trying to track down all your bags after busting a zerg = not fun.
I understand free transfers to help out in the pve aspects of the game, but it is hurting wvw. if there is a way to allow free transfers but restrict wvw access then that should be implemented immediately. If not then Arena Net could at least give us a time frame for when the server hopping madness will end.
Doesn’t this strategy require your enemy to be so incredibly stupid that they remain unaware that there are merchants in every starting area on every map which sell siege? Or is this where we all pretend the price of siege weapons isn’t ridiculously low?
come on, lets face it, we are in a world where it is much easier for people to find loopholes in programming… as the programming becomes more complex, and brand new systems are developed for things…. new exploits and hacks are found and have to be dealt with.
obviously a net doesnt want anyone cheating in WvW.. this doesn’t get them ANY money… unlike blizzard and D3 where they profit from cheaters who sell tons of items.
Anet wants to keep player base because that is who supplies their money, consistent play.
just give them some room. they are a small team working on huge things. and i have faith they will get to it as soon as they can, and the other 500 things people want including updates and new content items as well
Why are they focusing on PVE so much though? That’s where I feel their focus is right now but I just don’t understand – they are so inactive on the pvp forums and no word any significant PVP changes. What are they doing to balance server pops? Free transfers to high pop servers are still up.
Only 30 percent of the player base has queued up for wvw. By that statistic the pve crowd far outnumbers the pvp crowd. So focusing on pve makes sense.
Any chance we could try a few weeks with the scoring system turned off in wvw? You can keep statistics internally for matching purposes but i think WvW might benefit from not having any visible means of scoring. Hopefully if scoring is removed or hidden people will spread out a bit more to avoid queue’s.
Obviously the biggest problem in wvw right now is the player’s stubborn refusal to spread out amongst the servers. Queue’s are not working as we see a large portion of the player base willing to endure hours in a queue just to be on the ‘winning’ team. I suggest that Arena Net start using both the carrot and the stick.
I suggest that the undermanned buff be altered to exceed the bonus provided by 3 orbs. In addition there needs to be a debuff applied to any team who is currently outnumbering another server to the extent that server has the outmanned buff. That debuff should probably start as a reduction in drops, karma and experience. If that doesn’t work make the debuff stronger and add in stat debuffs as well. Continue to strengthen the buff and debuff until players get the message and spread the population out among all servers.
Many other games have tried various ways of getting pvp players to spread out to promote more competitive matches and they have pretty much always failed. So long as you do not punish server stacking players will continue to do it. Most don’t even care if they never get into wvw or if it is only a few hours a week. They still get to say they are ‘winning’.
It would be a risk to be sure. Many of the narcissistic and self-centered will get angry and quit or begin ranting about unfairness, but if you want the current wvw system to work then you are going to have to punish players for gaming the system by stacking on a few servers. Most players don’t even see anything wrong with server stacking but in fact it’s easier to fight against one person using actual hacks than it is to fight a 10 to 1 population advantage.
On the other hand you could just remove the scoring system altogether. Just let 3 realms fight in a week long death match. At the end of the week long period simply switch participants and start again. This is the method I would prefer as I am mainly interested in fighting not in scoring points.
Either way the wvw is already more fun than anything else in the past decade so maybe it’s best just to leave a good thing alone. I am having a blast every night so that is all that really matters.
No one on Sorrows Furnace has cheated or exploited. We have not set up Spawn point trebs. We have been playing 100% legitimately and not trying to use mesmers and theives to climb hills and things Like Grall is also doing.
That is all Sanctum of Grall has done. And Darkhaven has played pretty legitimate. Sanctum of Grall has no problem cheating.
I understand what you are saying, but Arenanet should take a hard stance on this issue and find a way to punish the server and hand out banns to the people that were caught.
I believe the punishment they should recieve is Zero transfers on or off the server and should have their rank removed from the world vs world list for a month.
The people directly responsible for the noclip and instant kill hacks should be permanently banned with their IPs.
That is an absolute lie. Have a chat with the 50 sorrows furnace players who set up trebs catapults and ballista all in unreachable, invulnerable areas in your borderland last night. They were getting pretty creative about it too. By your standards Sorrows furnace should just be deleted for what they did last night.
I counted no less than 6 catapults a treb and 4 ballista all in your invulnerable spawn area.
That is pretty much how this system is designed to work.
To be fair, the mismatch between Deveron’s Rest, Kainaing and Northern Shiverpeaks is works (like 580k to < 100k each in Nothern Shivs favor)
That one is an actual population issue I think. While SoR could potentially match participation if we could figure out how to get pve’rs to pvp, I don’t think that option is open to Devona or Kaineng.
The primary way to ‘win’ in wvw is by making sure you server has 24 hour participation. It isn’t about tactics, how many enemies you kill, or how many keeps you take or defend. It is all about holding your own until the other servers enter a dead zone in participation and you take the whole map.
:( It is frustrating to hear people say BS like this. I play primarily primetime and we are leading the per tick nearly 90% of the time. Most recently Wednesday night when it was quite clear we were being double-teamed. Good leadership and a sound “divide and conquer” plan was made and in an hour we owned 60% of the map including garrison.
Tactics matter and you are just making excuses. Starting winning in primetime, and people will come to cover your oceanic hours.
LoL everyone is convinced they are being ‘double teamed’. As for tactics we start out with nothing on the map every night and end up with the largest share every single night. ‘Winning’ in prime time cannot make up for the other 12 to 18 hours under the current score system.
So FA move up into a higher bracket next round.
Where is the problem again?
One imbalanced round, especially this early on, doesn’t indicate a broken system.
The problem comes that in order for this tier system to eventually work servers would have to match up in participation exactly. Even a one or 2 hour difference in participation will result in a blow out. That is why I would like to see the current scoring system supplemented with points awarded for pvp kills. Kills will be more frequent whenever the ‘primetime’ for that match up occurs. It is a way to more accurately represent the battle without punishing a particular time zone.
Sure that will open the possibility of abuse but the scoring would hardly be more skewed than it is right now.
Note: We are not looking for US prime time players. We are already quite competitive during that time slot and I refuse to sit in a queue. I am sure you are all lovely people but I don’t want to switch servers.
While bigger might be nice I think the maps could simply be reshuffled to make better use of the entire area. The borderlands have massive amounts of wasted space. Make the home team portal area smaller and shove it in one of the northern corners. Shove the orb in the opposite corner and defend it better. Ditch the centaurs and skritts. Fill in the lake, now you have room to move around.
The borders are a very poor use of space. The entire northern section of the map is largely empty of fighting. Underwater fighting is not popular enough for people to want to utilize the lake for the amount of area it covers.
As for eb I think you could make it better by eliminating stonemist. that huge keep takes up an area which would make for a great no man’s land in the middle of the map. Even better just make eb into a ruin. Remove the doors take out all the npc’s and just let people fight in and around the castle.
I wouldn’t say its a server imbalance, I think you read it wrong.
It’s obvious FA has more queueing up than your server. That is all the graphs show.
It appears your server isn’t interested in WvW (player to player). Tell the PvE’s to get out there and stop running dungeon loops.
According to the stats fully 70 percent of the player base has never been in wvw. You are right that it isn’t really a server imbalance, it’s a participation imbalance. It is also a failure of the scoring system. The primary way to ‘win’ in wvw is by making sure you server has 24 hour participation. It isn’t about tactics, how many enemies you kill, or how many keeps you take or defend. It is all about holding your own until the other servers enter a dead zone in participation and you take the whole map.
Hopefully, Arena Net will reconsider the scoring system to take into account the actual fights that occur. As a previous poster said the fights this week from 7 est to midnight est have been fast, furious and a great deal of fun.
Fort Aspenwood has a crew of bots running the skritt area as well.
Extend ram range. Sure it will look a bit funny but if you let rams be set outside of aoe splash range this problem goes away. You can already aim oil so just make sure it accounts for the new ram placement and that should be a quick fix.
I do understand it, I’ve been in those shoes myself before. And having been in those shoes I can tell you that a lot of people get turned off WvW (and PvP in general) because of the mindless zerg. Show them organised fighting and its a world of difference.
I disagree. The vast majority of people who play MMO’s never participate in pvp. The pvp crowd is a minority. I play pretty much exclusively in wvw and think it’s great, but I realize the majority of the player base does not share that opinion.
I think it would be more productive to spread the actual pvp players out amongst the servers than to try and convince a large group of pve players that getting curb stomped repeatedly by organized pvp guilds is fun. Once the pvp players are spread more evenly then you can get non pvp players to come out and play when they will have actual experienced pvp players to help them.
That have a queue during their “night-time”? or is it all pretty much queue free at night on the NA servers?
Everybody who seems to have a problem with nightcapping seems to think there are some servers with huge queues and then servers with none. Because we have no real information on queues, nobody can really complain. Maybe even HoD or VS have no queues at night?
It’s my understanding that HOD has a queue 24/7. No idea if that is actually true or not. Most of this should even out over time. Servers with similar participation should end up matched against one another. Also I expect much of the off peak crowd that is constantly capping maps virtually unopposed Will either spread out so it’s more competitive or to get bored in a month or two and move on to something else.
Herein lies the problem if the majority think the same way. Why? Because it puts the onus on someone else to fix the problem, whether it be ANet or the off peak players. If everyone wants someone else to fix things then nothing will ever get fixed.
The reality is that the top US alliances fixed their own problem in order to be competitive. If the people on a server aren’t willing to make an effort then they have noone but themselves to blame.
Update: 2 hours after my original post and the US server populations are still 3 medium and the rest high.
That is nice except you are doing the same thing. Putting the onus on someone else to fix the problem. The difference is the time I am able to play the game wvw is evenly populated (most servers reach their caps in the time period). So all I can do is recruit more people to fill up queues.
If the maps are evenly matched when you play then you have nothing to worry about. If the maps are not evenly matched and one side vastly outnumbers the opposition when you play then you are in a position to help change that and I am not. It really is that simple.
If almost all the servers have a high pop during off peak then they all have the potential to field decent sized off peak teams. Maybe people should try tapping that pool of potential WvWvW’rs instead of making assumptions and blaming ANet for all their woes.
As I said, when I play everything is even and very competitive. If you have no desire to transfer and help even out the playing field during your playtime there is not much I can do about it. I am not going to lose sleep trying to convince people playing in a different time slot that they want to wvw. I would think you might be interested in developing the competition when you play.
NA primetime is very competitive amongst most of the servers. If you are satisfied with the competitiveness of the time you play then don’t worry about it.
Its now 8pm where I am (GMT+8), Oceanic prime time and offpeak for the US. I look at the US server list and only 3 servers are medium – Devona’s Rest, Eredon Terrace and Kaineng. Every other server is High.
So tell me this, if all bar 3 servers are High pop in US offpeak hours then why are people complaining that they can’t field a night crew? You have the people! They are on your server! Go encourage them to play!
Because the overall population of servers is irrelevant. You cannot force people to play wvw who do not want to. The relevant numbers are the people who actually queue up and play in wvw. That number is currently massively imbalanced several times a day. The question is do the people playing off peak hours want competition or do they just want to continue capping empty keeps and towers. The solution lies with the off peak hours wvw players spreading themselves out amongst the servers. Either that happens and we all have some good close matches or it doesn’t and we continue seeing ridiculous scores.
I play during NA primetime on a server that doesn’t have a queue when I log in. So nothing I can do will actually matter. That being said it really doesn’t matter to me either way. When I play the maps fill up and we have great fights all night long. If you can say the same then don’t worry about it. If you are on a server that is capping the entire map when you are online then you are part of the problem.
That is funny. I like the fact that SoR players are always willing to attack. For the first few days when matches were not being reset we got stuck with Crystal Desert and Isle of Janthir. Despite being outmanned and outmatched we never gave up and kept on fighting when and where we could. Sure it would be nice if our players gave a bit more thought to tactics but that will come with time. Right now everyone is just getting to know the other players and learning the ins and outs of wvw. If we can get some good late night crews and daytime crews to go along with our primetime then I think we will be very competitive.
Somehow, I don’t think a complete redesign of the wvw zones is in anyway practical a month after launch. Maybe something to ask for in an expansion. Also I could swear I read somewhere that the wvw maps are as large as they can be currently. It would be nice to have much larger zones I just don’t think it is possible.
…and then people take advantage of the free, near-instant server transfers and start another round of massive server-hopping to the low-wait servers, making any statistics he’s provided almost immediately wrong.
So far movement has been in the opposite direction. People have been migrating from low-wait servers to the high queue servers. Why would releasing info alter this in any way?
@Rage the Numbers – Nobody’s nearly as stacked as HoD. 6 hour ques during Oceanic prime time is a daily thing, weekdays, weekends, doesn’t matter ):
I am curious then why do you stay on HOD? If I had to deal with 6 hour queues, I would never get into wvw. I just can’t understand why people would prefer to spend hours and hours in a queue to actually participating in pvp.
When will free world transfers be disabled? *Edited by moderator. Staff call-out*
in WvW
Posted by: Yshyr.8709
Keep in mind that Arena Net is looking at the total population of servers. WvW does not make up the majority of a servers population. The only thing that matters for wvw is the section of the population that is actually in the borders or queued up. Theoretically you could create a low population server made up of only the top players in wvw 24/7 and it should top the server rankings, yet the server would be a ghost town outside of wvw.
The mistake is the same that has been made in almost every open pvp game. The assumption that most pvp players want or enjoy a fair fight. They don’t. As we are seeing now a very large section of the player base would prefer to sit in a queue and never set foot in the borderlands so long as they can claim to be on a ‘winning’ server. I am afraid that in the end population imbalance can only truly be addressed by the players. All Arena Net can do is put in artificial boosts and incentives that never work that well. Unless players as a group decide to even out the servers (i.e. large alliances breaking up, major guilds moving to lower tier servers, off peak players spreading out) then this is about as good as it gets.
I see many suggestions on here that are decent but will require weeks of coding and testing. here are a couple of suggestions that I believe can help ease some problems and should be easy to implement.(obviously I cannot guarantee that they are easy to do only AN can do that.)
1. Disable wall and gate upgrades. This will remove the number one frustration for lower population servers. Currently a high population server can use off peak hours to cap the entire borderlands and EB. They then upgrade all keeps to maximum so when the next prime time rolls around, the lower population servers are now facing equal numbers of defenders in fully upgraded keeps. This is what enables one server to easily fight 2. Turning off these upgrades should make it easier for the underpopulated servers to make a faster comeback in prime time, thus encouraging more participation. (By high and Low population i mean the number of participants in wvw around the clock not the actual population of the server.)
2. Disable or at least hide scoring. This is more of a psychological deterrent than anything. People look at the score and decide that anything they try and do is futile. However, this is not true. My server is currently losing badly by the score, yet I am making loads of money and have a steady supply of badges and karma rolling in every night.
Off peak capping unbalancing prime time matches and lack of participation due to the appearance of futility are the 2 most damaging aspects of the current wvw system. I hope these are easy simple fixes, if not feel free to ignore me. If you want to just pick one please make it the first one as I think that is having the most detrimental impact on wvw at the moment. The nice thing is if these fixes don’t have any impact it should be just as easy to revert the changes.
If you can think of any other quick and easy to implement fixes list em here.
There is a much easier way to fix wvw. Arena Net could make a list of every player by how many kills they have and how much time they have spent in wvw (include time spent in queue). Now split this list into 3 or 4 lists based on the time of day played. Now take those three or four lists of people and spread them out onto every server evenly with forced transfers. Turn off server transfers. Like magic you have balanced wvw populations.
Now sit back and listen to the cries about forced transfers from all the people complaining previously about unbalanced populations and wvw.
If 70 percent of your guild is sitting in a queue you have no one to blame but yourselves. There are plenty of servers with no queue and server transfers are free. Instead of running with the zerg find a server that has little or no queue during the time period your guild is active and move there.
This is how it is between Fort Aspenwood, Sanctum of Rall, and Sorrow’s Furnace.
It gets pretty competitive during peak times, and is actually quite fun, but it’s clear that SoR and SF just don’t have the numbers during the late hours to make it a contest.
I played on Fort Apenwood Saturday evening and it was fun and pretty well balanced between all three servers. On the FA borderlands we were pretty much trading the northern outside supply depot’s between the servers. At one point enemies even got through both walls of the garrison but we manged to group up and hold it.
After that though it felt like everyone from SoR logged off. We took their keep with them having maybe 10-20 people defending, then their supply camp and the tower by their spawn.
Seemed like it when from a very balanced fight to complete domination in a matter of 30m to an hour.
No worries, after this week you will move up and be put in the same position as SoR and SF. The sad thing is that Arena Net has provided the tools to correct the problems we are seeing. Players from Fort Aspenwood who are facing no opposition when they play should be transferring to one of the other servers to even the sides. Instead what is actually happening is the majority of transfers are from the losing servers to the winning servers. Wait until Fort Aspenwood faces ET, JQ, HOD, or SBI, the same thing will happen to you.
Honestly, I doubt there is anything Arena Net can do to stop this. Players are choosing to move to servers where they will mainly pve keep lords in wvw. And players already on servers with no competition refuse to move because ’it’s not their problem’.
I don’t see the relevance of the above logic. The orbs do have an impact but the main limiting factor in WvW is participation and organization. If you form a single WvW guild on your server to get the ball rolling and keep thing organized you can easily zerg outwards from spawn steamrolling the opposition.
On borderlands you want to head north, not east/west towards the 3rd server. You want to push the home server and grab one of the side keeps. That’s where organization comes in. Without it you’ll grab your first tower then people will disperses waging war on two fronts or more.
You need that WvW guild to get people organized and joining the map together. Otherwise, you’ll have small groups of 8 people getting camped at spawn before heading back to lion’s arch.
Don’t ask arena net to balance WvW or design it around solo players. You have to get your WvW organized. Since you can join more than a single guild there is zero excuse not to have a server WvW guild.
You are missing the point. Friday when the week long battles began, it was great as no server held an advantage. Fights were mostly even and hard fought. Then the off peak hours hit. Generally one server in each grouping has a huge advantage in the number of off peak players they can field. This allows this one server to cap everything on the map, and hold it long enough to be fully upgraded.
Now on Saturday when peak hours hit again, the match is no longer even. One team starts with everything capped and all keeps and towers upgraded to maximum. The other teams must spend far more time taking back fully upgraded and defended keeps. Then they wake up Sunday and see that any gains they made during Saturday peak hours are gone, and once again one team has the full map with everything upgraded a sense of futility sets in. Sunday peak time hits and the other two servers are no longer filling zone population caps during prime time. Repeat this for a week. What began as a fairly even match in the first peak time turns into a slaughter. In many cases being dominated by the team who was doing the WORST during the first peak time.
The goal is how to extend the fun of the first peak time after match resets to the full week. The easy way is for players to voluntarily spread themselves out among the servers. (Honestly can someone from one of the heavy off peak population servers explain this? Why would you not want a fair fight? And yes if you play off peak hours and your server caps the full map then YOU are the main problem with wvw right now.) Sadly, we know that will not happen. So that leaves it up to Arena Net to somehow find a way to keep matches from spiraling out of control.
Posting server rankings while transfers were still open was the worse thing a-net could have done.
in WvW
Posted by: Yshyr.8709
None of this is the fault of Arena Net or the system they designed. Players have been given the choice to make World v World what they want it to be. People create alliances with hundreds or even thousands of pvp players and then wonder why the have queues. Off peak players, instead of spreading themselves amongst all the servers all congregate on a handful, thus guaranteeing they will spend most of the time in pve against keep lords.
You want good competition? The large alliances on HoD, ET, JQ, etc. need to dissolve and spread themselves amongst all the servers. The off peak players need to spread themselves out to other servers. The problem is no one actually seems to want a fair fight. Titan Alliance, Ascension and all the rest may want a challenge but it’s hard to imagine when you have stuffed the majority of organized pvp guilds onto a couple of servers. In short we players have made WvW into what it is now. Maybe you all believed that there would be hundreds and thousands of unknown pvp powerhouses that would suddenly appear from no where. That hasn’t happened and it won’t happen.
(Not belittling those alliances or heavy pvp worlds. Certainly they have put a great deal of effort into being where they are. However, unless those large pvp groups are willing to split up and compete with each other, pvp will remain exactly what it is today. Depending on pugs or new players to somehow equal things out is a pipe dream.)
It is up to the customers to fix the imbalance not Arena Net. Either the strong pvp guilds and alliances voluntarily split and spread themselves amongst all the servers or what we have now is the best it will ever get. After all the costumer is always right.
Where would the servers be hosted? If it was in NA, EU players would be at a disadvantage due to lag, and vice versa if it’s hosted in EU.
Absolutely true. To have a fuller 24 hour player base you would need to trade some performance.
It’s fun. There doesn’t need to be any reason beyond that.
That pretty much sums it up nicely.
One of the major complaints in WvW is about off peak hours. It seems to me that having separate server groups for NA and EU is counterproductive. Obviously I have no idea if it would even be possible to correct at this point. If servers were world wide then you have less off peak times which should produce a greater number of servers that can be competitive 24/7. Of course WvW is not the entire game and there are valid reasons for having separate servers.
Still, I am curious if anyone thinks mixing NA and EU servers together could help WvW competitiveness or would it be the same as now with 3 or 4 servers dominating?