Guild Wars 2

DonQuack.9025:

You have two hands. Right?

But usually one of them is busy with .. a .. rubic’s cube.

sorrychief.2563:

I like where this thread is going.

Oh we’ve been there before
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Staff-healer-or-dps/first#post2970810
(Yes I am quoting a quote, somehow the original post “disappeared”, but gw2 rememebers )

It’s just going to last until we all get too tired to waste our time. He who argues not to prove himself right but only to get the last word will outlast our patience. The community will not be better off, but he says himself that he does not care.

What you do not get is that maybe you had a point, maybe, maybe not. We could discuss it.

But why did you have to contradict me on facts that you openly recognise now??
I said the elementalist’s innate defenses make it unable to sustain hits. Whether or not we are going to discuss the real defensive tools of the ele, why do you have to contradict this statement although you admit all the facts??? Can you not consider a few facts on their own – passive defense – before adding more complex facts to the discussion – active defense? Of course I look at the big picture, but that does not prevent me from drawing partial conclusions. Apparently it does prevent you from doing that though. But it does not prevent you from heinously contradicting me on every point I make.

I know you want to “discredit me and drag my name though the mud” (god, the violence!) but could you please do that by being constructive in the discussions?

Do you even realise that you abusively contradicted me on some simple facts before justifying yourself saying that simple facts are not the complete picture? It is like if we were in siberia in a heated house, I would say the house is warm, and you would reply that saying that the house is warm is factually incorrect because it is pretty cold out there We would all appreciate it if you could abstain from wasting a page of posts just for such absurdity.

:D

Here is what I said:
“The elementalist has a terrible innate defense, if you consider only the passive attributes like armor and health. Some people do the mistake of trying to solve this problem frontally, by taking defensive gear. It’s a common human mistake. But there is a simple fact: the ele is not made to sustain hits. So even if you take defensive gear you are going to get spanked, unless you start using the real defensive tools of the ele.”

You replied:
“to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect.”

My point was that the innate defense of the elementalist makes it unable to sustain hits. Then we can build our character to counter that.

The building of the character and its innate defense are two different topics.

We could have talked about the interesting topic of how to use our tools to survive, but you contradicted me on the very premise of the discussion. Seven times after that you are still not able to stand for that point. I am tired.

Kodiak.3281:

-snip-

Boom! Sixth time you can’t answer something so simple and factual according to you. At this point your hypocrisy could not be more obvious. I hope every reader in this conversation can see this (if they get past the headache).

This is exactly why it is impossible to have a constructive debate with you Kodiak. You cannot be objective. You are too focused on trying to prove me wrong in any way possible, like you have been trying for the past two years! If you want your advice to ever be taken seriously then you need to stop hating me and start engaging into constructive discussions. Constructive discussions are based on facts, and they imply that the respondents do not deflect when objectively proven wrong because in the end it is about helping the community, not making yourself look good.

_
addendum

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

We can answer all these question once you start answering the original question that fostered them: is the elementalist made to sustain hits or not?

It’s the fifth time you are deflecting. Yet you stated quite clearly that your position is factual, surely then it should not be so hard to reply! Or maybe you know you are wrong so you are going to deflect for a sixth time?

They aren’t two different conversations, they are all the same conversation. Even you know this because (and I quote you):

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

All the talk about how to overcome this weakness is an other topic…

The quote tells exactly the opposite. I don’t even …

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

A fourth deflection but at least now you are acknowledging the facts. Next step, you admit that the elementalist is not made to sustain hits?

All the talk about how to overcome this weakness is an other topic, we may address it afterwards, but first I would really like to know if you stand by your point or not.

Do you really think the only way to sustain hits is through Armor and Hitpoint pool?

Does a class having additional access to Boons and Heals for defenses not count as character design?

Defensive Elementalists don’t exist? What’s next? Are you going to tell us that jet fuel can’t melt steel beams?

We can answer all these question once you start answering the original question that fostered them: is the elementalist made to sustain hits or not?

It’s the fifth time you are deflecting. Yet you stated quite clearly that your position is factual, surely then it should not be so hard to reply! Or maybe you know you are wrong so you are going to deflect for a sixth time?

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

I asked you to prove your claim that the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits.

You deflected by talking about healing specs in PvP.

So you avoided answering the question. It’s the third time now. Try to have the moral honesty to admit when you are wrong.

-snip-
the Elementalist starts with the lowest HP and Armor pool
-snip-

A fourth deflection but at least now you are acknowledging the facts. Next step, you admit that the elementalist is not made to sustain hits?

All the talk about how to overcome this weakness is an other topic, we may address it afterwards, but first I would really like to know if you stand by your point or not.

J Eberle.9312:

Alright. You win. I can’t top that.

But wait, there’s more!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Condimentalist-Kodiak-Build-Vid/first#content
And yeah, we are dealing with the "author of the "build""on the ele forums at this very moment.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You are deflecting again.

How can you imagine you will ever be taken seriously if you cannot defend your points constructively?

You’re ignoring the answers again.

Nope.

I asked you to prove your claim that the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits.

You deflected by talking about healing specs in PvP.

So you avoided answering the question. It’s the third time now. Try to have the moral honesty to admit when you are wrong.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You said the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits. Now prove it, or admit you were wrong and you only said that just because you want to oppose me in everything I say since you have some personal problem against me.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

You are deflecting again.

How can you imagine you will ever be taken seriously if you cannot defend your points constructively?

Kodiak.3281:

Common man.

You come on. You said the elementalist is factually made to sustain hits. Now prove it, or admit you were wrong and you only said that just because you want to oppose me in everything I say since you have some personal problem against me.

Here are the facts:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health#Base_health_by_profession
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor#Defense_rating

Now go ahead and explain to me how these facts show that the elementalist is made to sustain hits.

I am tired of you making claims left right and center, and then deflecting when you are faced with perfect counter arguments or the irrefutable proof that you are obviously wrong. Stand for your points, or do not make points.

Aggrostemma.1703:

I
#EDIT: can somebody explain me what meta means in the metabattle or metagame words please? What do you believe?

Scroll up a bit

Kodiak.3281:

So to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect.

Therefore the elementalist is made to sustain hits, ok. Thanks, ok. Ok.

It’s the class that by nature is the least able to sustain hits of all, but ok.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/elementalist/

Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

Even the devs disagree with you, but ok.

I guess “factually incorrect” lost the meaning it used to have!

Well said Fracture!

The elementalist has a terrible innate defense, if you consider only the passive attributes like armor and health. Some people do the mistake of trying to solve this problem frontally, by taking defensive gear. It’s a common human mistake. But there is a simple fact: the ele is not made to sustain hits. So even if you take defensive gear you are going to get spanked, unless you start using the real defensive tools of the ele. We survive by taking advantage of two of our most valuable mechanisms. The first is damage: kill before being killed. The second is active defense. We have a plethora of active defense abilities! For example, I tend to use glyphs a lot when I am in a difficult situation: I use builds like these http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFEQJAodhUMaaW0w6BdEBOAGpawoPg4HQAoDW8KsEA-T1RBABXp8jm9HwTPgGnAAAeAAUq+jZKBBA-w or with the earth points into water for more heal and condition cleanse. The trick is to control the enemy: use glyph of storms in earth, glyph of elemental power in air or earth and kite, dive in – jump out, etc. Use conditions like weakness, cripple, and chill to hinder your foes (I even use condition duration food for this purpose sometimes). Time your burning speed and ice IB4 bursts. It is very a dynamic playstyle and it overcomes any kind of content.

As masters of the elements we are meant to control the battlefield

phys.7689:

man yall basically hate everything.

Nobody hates DF
DF is love, DF is life.

Aggrostemma.1703:

Zelyhn: sorry to say but meta is META… what you wanna say is the FotM. FotM is changing constantly it keeps evolving but there is only one MOST effective tactic available… Most means there is only one…

… at any given time. And time flies!

Meta really does not stand for most effective tactic. I mean, it’s not even a tactic

The meta comes from the top players, the flavour of the month is just some weird concept adopted by casuals because they believe that one profession on its own is better than all others, which is a huge misconception.

But maybe this is all because of the truffletruffletruffles?

Aggrostemma.1703:

Example:

three different tasks:

1, cherrypicking
2, lawnmowing
3, truffle harvesting

Castings:

A: the Cherrypicker
B: the Lawnmower
C: the Harvester
D: the guy in a green T-Shirt

situ 1: the A uses ladder because this is the META for picking cherries. D asks some friends to lift him up. A gets more cherries but D is still happy.
situ 2: B gets it right away…. Mowmowmow, D has some fun with the friends picking up flowers and some kind of weed… A has some issues because of the ladder…
situ 3: C runs out with a few tamed dogs and pigs… TruffleTruffleTruffle!
A joins with a ladder… Well played..
D gets his friends again and they are digging in the mud…. No truffle? Still fun!

TruffleTruffleTruffle!

Sounds like you did a bit more than just harvesting them

I’m pretty sure meta stands for metagame, “around the game”, that is everything that does not pertain to the domain of instantaneous decision making. It involves planning, optimizing, making strategies, anticipating the decisions of your foes. In fact it involves every decision you could make before effectively getting into the action.

As you make those decisions with a cool head they tend to be rational (as opposed to instantaneous decisions that can be quite intuitive). Since most humans are rational, we end up with the majority of the players with comparable experience making the same metagame decisions. There are variations, of course, but the core of the meta adopted by top players is almost always the same at a given time. It is very difficult for the common folks to be as good as the top players when it comes to instantaneous decision making, but it is easy to understand and assimilate their meta decisions. This is why there is such thing as “the” meta. It is the common core in all the cool-headed decisions that top players make. As such, “the meta” consists of what is perceived as the most effective decisions players could make before getting into action.

Edit: The meta evolves constantly. Knowing the meta of a given game mode at a given time ensures that you have the potential to perform well. But it is even better if you assimilate it and infringe it so that you take part in the process of discovering the new meta. Some experiments will give you an advantage over the people that stick to the old meta, some will be less efficient. Luckily for us the PvE environment barely ever changes, so we don’t have to scratch our heads so much as those who have the courage to compete in PvP

RegnorVex.4071:

I’m currently using D/F but after reading all the comments in this thread about D/F Fresh Air never becoming this “meta”, I decided that, as good as it is, I would like to try out whatever the meta builds are and see how they feel for my play style.

The thread about DF not being meta is about PvP. In PvE DF is definitely part of the meta. It is not the best for optimal speedruns, but it excels in everything else

As cursE explained, do not worry about the meta while you level up. Instead take this time to experiment a lot, and most importantly train to dodge perfectly. Have fun!

“Meta” is a characteristic of builds that are most commonly used by players of the profession, and that have proven to yield good results. But what you need to know is that the “meta” is made to be infringed! It’s more like guidelines to help your benchmark your builds. Which game mode are you interested in?

Iris Ng.9845:

How about Tornado?

Yep, it triggers the sigil, both when you morph in and out.

1) Of course DF is superior

2) There is no contradiction. Only builds that are helpful will gain support by the community. People are clever and rational though, so they will make their own decisions and I think that is completely natural. My self-proclaimed job is only to make sure that they are conscious of their choices.

3) Have you ever tried to screw a screw without a screwdriver? You can use a coin, a knife, your nails … It’s terrible. I just want to make sure that people have screwdrivers, because that’s the best tool for the job. And then it just happens that we all like rewards, so in a way we all have the same goal.

4) I have tons of hints, but I am only human I think that if the community had a build that was at least as helpful as the builds that Keyz, Haviz, and I support (as well as Neko, and others), then we would have heard about it.

So your crusade against the community has evolved into a personal struggle against me Kodiak? You can argue all you want, but in the end of the day it is the community – not me – who decides what build they want to use, what build they think is helpful, and what build they support. Good luck trying to convince the community that they are wrong.

You think that debates are won by who argues for the longest. I think I have made my points clear throughout this very long discussion, so I will stop right here. Carry on arguing as you wish, you seem to nurture some hatred against me, but I do not think you can add anything to the discussion. If anyone is not convinced by my arguments then they will speak out.

Kodiak.3281:

Actually that’s entirely untrue and shows a basic lack of understanding of how Natural Selection and the principles of evolution work. It’s all about inheritable traits and traits that will help propagation. In this particular case it’s the people who are playing Max DPS builds who have the trait of arguing against and trashing any other build not like theirs. This helps them propagate because people who make alternative builds lack this trait and don’t want to keep arguing or fighting every time they post a build and eventually give up.

Interesting theory. But I embody the perfect counter example. DF is not max DPS, yet it still prevails. I had to fight my way against a lot of people who trashed the build (Anierna <3), but I won those arguments because the build has many comparative advantages and it has been shown to achieve a lot. DF survives because it helps people. Your condimentalist build died because it did not help people. Natural selection works perfectly fine here.

Kodiak.3281:

with them willing to buy additional accounts after getting banned to keep trashing other builds we definitely know they are dedicated to the act.

Good luck trying to discredit me by exposing the ban of my main account, I wear this ban with pride! I got it from defending the community in the Fractured patch. As for “trashing other builds”, here is what the introduction of my guide says: “it is important to understand that each build is specific to its owner. We all have different play-styles, different team mates, and we face varying challenges according to the content we choose to tackle. So never follow a guide like a dredge: be conscious of what kind of player you are and of what you want to achieve.” Sounds like trashing others to you?

Kodiak.3281:

Builds are merely the tools in which players use to overcome those encounters at the pace in which they care to.

Some tools are better than others. You don’t see farmers plowing the fields with a cart and horses anymore do you? We have evolved. And this progress is only possible because we trash bad ideas.

Still waiting for your reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support

Engineers can trigger on-swap effects by changing kits; elementalists do so by switching between attunements.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_swap

Also, RtL is a weapon swap

And you can’t propagate unless you are helpful. You can’t be helpful unless you contribute significantly to the encounter. You can’t contribute much unless you are efficient. So helpful builds win because they are the best.

No one is going to take you seriously when you say that efficient builds have prevailed only because I post a lot on these forums. If I was so good at manipulating then not only the most divine of us would play DF but the entire community would adopt this godly build

Anyway:

If ever you have any reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support, then speak out clearly. Otherwise the case is closed

Kodiak, you claim that one cannot speak for the majority of the community, yet you complain that the majority of the community “hates” suboptimal builds.

The fact that no other builds have renowned guides apart from those that are supported by theorycrafters likes Keyz and me clearly shows the tastes of the majority of the community: we like efficiency. Because efficiency gets you more rewards for your effort. Who wouldn’t like that?

You posted a build some time ago called the condimentalist. To this day I see no support for your proposition. Why? Because it did not help people. If people had tried it and found that it helps them achieve more then they would speak out, they would spread the love.

Anything that helps the community achieve more gets supported. Anything that does not work well towards this goal gets trashed. Like I said before, this is for the good of the community, it makes sense. And this is not my doing: it is like natural selection, you can’t fight it.

Now Kodiak, give me a reason why we should fight against natural selection. If ever you have any reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support, then speak out clearly. That would really give you a point. Otherwise the case is closed

Berzerker gear is the most efficient gear when it comes to completing the content smoothly, which is what the community desires.

The Lupicus kill I linked was not smooth at all, and therefore not efficient by community standards.

But the Lupicus kill was done efficiently considering the restrictions that the players had placed upon themselves. Indeed, a certain level of efficiency is required to complete content. In this clip, not much skill was involved.

The discussion is about your perception of what you call “hate” towards anything that does not use berzerker gear. Ultimately it all comes down to the idea that no one likes to play alongside people who are not contributing much to the completion of the content. So, again, it is natural that the community dislikes advice that leads to inefficiency.

I remember that you took great pride from someone telling you that you are efficient at might stacking Kodiak, you even linked a screenshot on this forum. Therefore you appreciate efficiency too, and you like that your contribution is appreciated. The community is no different.

If a nerf is really required to make this trait have a per-target ICD instead of this nonsense then I’d say keep the ICD at 5 but decrease the duration of the blind

I would prefer if we stayed clear of ad hominem arguments Kodiak, not only for the health of the discussion but also because such tactic often reveals a lack of proper arguments from the perpetrator.

Efficiency does not mean maximum DPS. I thought we had covered this: my DF build is not maximum DPS (not far though!) but it is very efficient. Efficiency is maximum output, considering the goal the player wants to achieve.

In the video I linked, the players are actually very efficient, considering the goal they have chosen. Yet, some of them die, and the fight takes ages. This is fine because this is exactly what this group of friends had in mind, so they had fun. But now, if a random person would join the group without prior knowledge of their goals this person would have a terrible time. So if the players from the video would come on forums and say this is how to kill Lupicus the community would be right to point out the inefficiencies in their method. This is what this discussion is all about.

I think unless the players who come on the forums clearly state their perspective then it is normal that their ideas are judged from the perspective that is common to the majority of the community. The community wants to complete content smoothly, they want to feel potent, they want to achieve more. I find it quite normal that they dislike advice that gets content completed less smoothly, advice that makes players less potent, and that ultimately prevents the community from enjoying the game as much. It is a matter of common sense, and common good

_
Now a few clarifications:

Kodiak.3281:

I’ll never accept that Berserker is the only way to play.

You are right, it is not. It is the most efficient though. You are free to chose how efficient you want to be, and people are free to enjoy playing with you or not.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed. A certain level of efficiency is required to complete content.

This is a faulty and misleading premise.

To state that alternative methods are incapable of downing content is simply, factually incorrect.

Indeed, and that is why I am not making such statement. My statement is that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete the content, a certain level is required to complete it smoothly enough for your team to have a good time in this social game. You deem this point faulty but you have failed to explain why. And seriously good luck explaining: you would have to argue that making purely bad decisions gets the content completed

Kodiak I almost forgot the most important point:

This is a social game. The actions of each individuals have consequences for those around them. Therefore, players should consider their contributions to the people they play with. If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed. A certain level of efficiency is required to complete content. Besides, every body likes to feel like they can achieve something. For these reasons I believe that optimal ways of playing should be known to the community. Then players can chose how to compromise their builds between what they want to play and what gets things done. I am like anyone else, this is exactly what I do: I do not want to play with conjures nor staff, so I play DF, but I make it efficient so that my personal choice does not prevent the pugs I play with to enjoy their time.

If players come to the community for advice, it is only natural that the community advises players with guidance that makes them valuable to the community.

Lord Arhan Warmark.7098:

I’ve read your discussions, and you really both should just agree to disagree

Or not.

I guess not, sorry We should not agree to disagree, I really dislike this idea. Unless one of us is being irrational then we will necessarily find a way to understand each other. Debates need closure. Not that I expect that my point of view will prevail, but I hate to leave discussions unfinished. We have remained cordial for this one, so allow us this chance to put an end to our disagreement

I was zerker two years ago and I am zerker now, because when I reached level 80 I looked at gear stats and skill coefficients, I saw that only zerker had synergy, so my choice was easy. But I came on the forums only much later

I do not “judge” other people’s builds. I never did, or at least not intentionally: sometimes I may call something “bad” because I assume that the person I am talking to has the same perspective on the game as I do, so they want to achieve the same things and therefore they have the same way of evaluating builds. But what I mean is efficient or not efficient. That is objective. And I am perfectly fine with people who chose alternative paths. Why should those people feel in any way offended by the knowledge that their choice is not the most optimal from other people’s perspectives?

If I made inefficient choices, I would like people to tell me. If they are right, then good for me: I can improve. If they are wrong, then good for me: I can prove my points and this way they improve. So there is no need to be too sensitive. Moderation does not help innovation

We can all be kind and considerate and moderate but seriously that would be extremely boring. We are not in a care bear world. I like to take sides and to have clear cut opinions. So, in the same way that you would expect people to judge builds only from the perspective of the defendant, I think those who propose builds should only perceive the comments of those who judge bearing in mind that they speak from a different perspective. I goes both ways. Once we understand this no one gets offended, helpful builds get adopted, and we don’t get bored.

But in the end, builds that are not helpful kinda deserve to be trashed

Kodiak.3281:

It’s this level of misunderstanding that makes me really wish there was a Euro and a North American set of forums.

Well now that is not so courteous.
Besides, I know my communication skills need improvement, but you should reread your posts: many of your sentences lack structure. I do not want to turn this debate into a personal argument though, so allow me to assure you that I have read and perfectly understood the reason for your trouble. You have a problem with what your perceive as hate towards any gear that is not berserker. I really hope I got it right, but I am not really sure since you tend to talk about “berserker builds” as well and I have no clear idea what that could be.

So the counterpoints I have kept making throughout this discussion are the following:
1) The theorycrafters behind the most efficient builds agree that defensive gear can help during the learning phase towards full berzerker. If the parents of the “meta” advise alternative gears, then how can you possibly say that they “hate” it?
2) Regardless of the problem defensive gear helps to solve this fix is only temporary. Therefore any advice giver would be unwise to dispense such guidance. Instead it makes more sense to give new players the long-term builds they need to learn to master.
3) In my view defensive gear is not only a temporary fix, it is also a bad one. I believe that defensive builds are a much better response to early learning hardship than defensive gear. This is because passive defense relieves the learner from the need to identify their mistakes. It makes new players avoid having to deal with difficulty instead of trying and failing until they succeed. In layman’s terms: you can’t get rid of your bad habbits unless you get slapped in the face every time you behave incorrectly! In contrast, defensive builds with zerker gear get you slapped but they give you the boost you need to recover, so that you don’t give up and your learn faster. You learn to make good decisions.

I have explained again why alternative gear is not being advised by this community and why you are wrong to think we “hate” it at the same time. But there is a chance that by “berserker meta” you did not mean zerker gear with whatever build, but maybe you use the adjective pertaining to the gear in order to distinguish some types of builds (traits). I must admit I have no clue what you are talking about if this is the case.

Right, so basically you would give them the advice that I have in my old guide and that Keyz has in her guide – the advice that the two main theorycrafters of the class keep on their guides. Thank you Kodiak, what a ground for grievance, that was definitely worth crusading against us.

Anyway you admitted that this is good for learning. And this is exactly why the community dislikes recommending alternative gear: we give long-term advice, then the players can make their own decision on how to get there. I believe that they should use defensive builds (and yes berzerker builds can have defensive cooldowns), some advise defensive gear, but in any case it is not worth dedicating more than a couple of lines in our guides to settle the debate.

Maybe you should read our guides

Woa I never wrote anything more pompous than that! Seriously bro, zerker rocks, just accept it

Edit: see what the game looks like without zerker gear? haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8mBbr5llJQ

The point of relying on active defense to survive as that it makes you learn, as opposed to relying on passive defense. As soon as you start being active – as soon as you start making decision instead of avoiding them – then you can handle anything. The build does not matter. The point not to “learn the character” as you put it, but to learn to make good decisions.

But you are right: a guide on alternative gear would be pointless. Not because of HoT, but because it would really be pointless. Such guide would just use the build archetypes we have now and inject defensive stats. I don’t think anyone needs a guide for that. And that’s an other reason why we don’t discuss alternative gear here, an other reason why your crusade is pointless.

As for gearing, it takes ages to have multiple ascended sets, so I would always advise new players to shoot for the best and fill in with whatever exotic they want in the meantime.

And for your information, 2015 barely started but we already had a competitive tournament: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-Guild-Wars-2-Trio-ChallengeTournament/first#post4900983
We had two last year, and they had more views then any PvP tournament before them. And long before that we started competing on speed records: http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

You think that illustrates my view of the game don’t you? You think I am a bloody elitist that takes pleasure from beating competitors? You think this is why I am adamant about being efficient? I never took part in any competition, nor record-setting, and I mostly play in pick up groups. My view of the game is that anyone can – and anyone should – feel empowered with the ability to make a difference. I want people to know the impact they have in their group. I want them to feel potent, so that they can achieve more and enjoy this game to its fullest. My pleasure is to give people the information they need.

Once we reach that point, some people will want to push further and join the competition. I rejoice at this, but this is out of my jurisdiction. Look at my guides, there is no maths, although this would be the core of my work. I have made sure that any new player can understand the concepts at hand. I give people the keys to unlock their potential, that is all. And yeah, I do not think using defensive gear helps to unlock anyone’s potential.

By the way, in my old DF guide I wrote a paragraph on using defensive gear. You still think there is “hate” on anything that does not fit the “meta” ?

We are not going to continue this debate for ages Kodiak, so let’s settle it. I understand that you can feel offended by the speed at which most people chose to disregard alternative gear. In a lot of cases the players who come here for advice are not yet fit to withstand the tests of the zerker mindset. Passive defense would solve their problems in the short term, maybe, but that would leave the real issue untouched: most of the time these players think that a build is automatic. They think that simply copying the ways of advanced players will make them better without efforts. The truth is that those players want the easy way out, but there is no such thing. In order to really improve they would need to be more critical about their performance. If we give them advice that helps them avoid decisions then they will never get better. You want people to improve, don’t you Kodiak?

Allow me to conclude by quoting the introduction of my old guide:
In this guide I will give you guidelines on how to achieve more with your character. It is important to understand that all I am going to talk about is only the “tip of the iceberg”. What makes you a good player is your knowledge of the skills, combat mechanics, team play, and content. A strong build is just a bit of help allowing you to shine brighter.

I see you have a problem with the dominance of efficiency

In all seriousness, if you want to write a guide for users wishing to have more defensive stats then by all means do it. I think it’s useless as defensive stats simply give you an illusion of survivability, so you do not even learn and you never improve. The only survivability boost that could be required while learning to rely only on active defense to stay alive can be obtained by defensive traits, so defensive gear is useless in the medium and long term. If someone comes here and tells me they have problems surviving while being zerker I would tell them to use a defensive build and I would give them tips to learn how to dodge, so that they improve and they become efficient rapidly. If you want to spuriously appease their woes by advising them to indulge into using passive defense then go ahead. But I am an optimist: I believe anybody can learn to be efficient the way I learnt it. So I won’t give in to illusive short-term solutions.

Come on Iris I am close to making Kodiak understand he is wrong after almost two years of him lurking around and pestering us with his “I am different, you are all drones”, don’t ruin it now!

Kodiak.3281:

Only thing I’ve ever expected is to let people choose for themselves.

I doubt I have so much power that I can make people do my bidding over the internet

People come here for advice, the community delivers.

I see you have a problem with the dominance of the zerker gear. I can understand that. I too have a problem with some of the features of the “meta”: I hate sceptre. I never use this weapon, and you will almost never see me theorycraft anything about it. But have you ever seen me crusade (yes please roll your eyes) against the people advising others to use sceptre builds? Even though I dislike this weapon I can understand that it is the most efficient choice for a lot of people (sceptre with conjures of course, this weapon is awful on its own).

It just happens that scpetre is efficient for many aspects of PvE, and that zerker gear is efficient for all aspects of PvE.

What do you really expect to do against that? I used to play healer and support in previous games, and I really wish I could have this role in gw2, but I went full zerker the moment I laid my eyes on the stats. I went out of my way so that I could achieve more. I had fun doing that. If you have fun remaining true to your way by playing alternative builds then no one could possibly advise you against that. But there is a hard truth: you will be less efficient. I expect players to make their own decisions, but I want them to know the facts before, so that their decisions are educated.

Kodiak.3281:

Here’s the truth buddy. I wouldn’t submit anything to this community even if I somehow did manage to come up with some groundbreaking breakthrough because it’s pretty toxic. That was the entire point of my original post here. Everything is great and dandy if you’re suggesting the meta, but the minute someone, anyone, posts something outside of it and it’s usually ridiculed, slammed and put down. Even you had to fight to get people to try something good, which is ridiculous.

No it is not ridiculous. I was no one. I was just a basic member in an unknown french guild, and I was not very skilled. But I wrote my guide because I believe in my build. At that time most players were using daphoenix’s bunker DD build, and efficient players were using variations of Kitsune’s LH build. Neko was our dedicated compiler of knowledge and he did a great work. As you can still see from the first replies on my old DF thread, my build was not so well received in the beginning, and rightly so! I engaged into discussions with Neko and the community, I proved my points, and I improved my build thanks to their comments. But the best was yet to come: I was soon contacted by Haviz, co-leader of rT, and he told me that he likes the way I am thinking and that I should join his fotm80 team. For those of you who don’t know Haviz is nicknamed the Dark Lord because he is incredibly skilled, he is probably the most “toxic” player out there, and he hates mediocrity Playing alongside rT members challenged my views and pushed me to improve my skills as well as my builds. Then I joined rT, and then Dulfy asked us to write guides for her website. Pardon me for sounding immodest, but what this story means is that it is perfectly possible to think out of the box, even if you are “no one”. If your ideas are good they will come on top. If your ideas are bad they will be crushed into oblivion. Such is life, and it is all for the good of the community.

Kodiak.3281:

The only reason builds can’t co-exist with each other is because people start to label one build better or worse than another. Maybe that’s what you don’t understand. I don’t care if your build or another build or whatever is most efficient. I care that there’s no room for anything else with that kind of mentality and posts.

After more than two years of existence, what else did you expect? Builds are ways of specialising our characters. Just like in life, if you specialise in something you will be good at it but you will be worse at the rest! So yes, builds can and will be labelled. I don’t think that this is bad. In fact it makes us have to chose. Decisions is all life is about Some decisions are good, some are bad. I am traditionally a support player myself, so I wish we had more build diversity to fulfill this purpose. But I can not complain too much: other classes have it much worse. This is not because of the community’s mentality, quite the opposite: the community learned it the hard way as we confronted the challenges this game has to offer.

Maybe your inquisitive energy is not put to the best of uses Kodiak. It seems to me that your enemy is not the community but the game design itself.

There is a difference between “meta” and efficient. All meta builds are efficient, but not all efficient builds are meta.

So thanks to our vast building possibilities we have a lots of efficient builds. We have three main build archetypes for PvE and each one of these have many variations. In fact advanced players do not even limit their minds to those archetypes and they constantly innovate by combining assets from each builds. It is their ability to efficiently innovate that makes them outperform the competition.

Two builds for PvE you say? And the rest is bad? When I wrote my D/F guide many people thought it was bad. Then they tried it, and they realised that despite the build being unorthodox it is efficient, good, and wonderful. So there is not “one most efficient way to play”, but there are inefficient ways to play and these will not be given any attention.

I am getting tired of repeating the same things to you on every single thread Kodiak. I understand that it must feel good to be the one standing up against the accepted way of thinking, to be the one challenging this inhuman system. But despite your will to be different you have not contributed any build that has helped the community so far.

So keep trying to be different if you will, but stop antagonizing those who want to be efficient.

That’s all that matters my friend

Kodiak.3281:

That’s actually the right answer Taiyetos.

Then if they want something different THEN we get into imperfect answer territory because you’ll have the drone swarm will come out and poop on anything not meta.

The only person talking about the meta is you Kodiak.

We are the most advanced class with the highest variety of builds and tons of variations. I have almost never seen anyone from this educated community say “your build is not meta enough so you will perform poorly” but I have seen you crusade upon every single PvE thread and copy-paste your usual rant against anyone who would advise efficiency. You name me as the evil mind behind this “drone swarm” of people who want to perform well. Yet the D/F build for which I am known has never been considered as “meta”. However this build is efficient, and this is why it has gained unprecedented popularity. So you see, it is perfectly possible, and perfectly acceptable to be different. In fact it is encouraged. Therefore you should relax, Kodiak. Your inquisition against the people who give clever and efficient advice is pointless.

Yo, just to modestly contribute here, allow me to humbly suggest looking at the Core Concept paragraph of the ele guide I wrote with Haviz:

http://dulfy.net/2014/07/11/gw2-elementalist-pve-class-guide-by-haviz-and-zelyhn/#Section_1_Core_concepts

Most of what we wrote is applicable to the ele (and bits are outdated) but this can possibly inspire people to write more general guidelines.

Pardon me for linking some personal material instead of directly contributing, I would love to help, but all my writing energy must remain dedicated to my irl occupation for the moment.

Oh and I am just going to park my opinion here inb4HoT:

All condition builds – because “there is no condition limit now, btw I use tank gear, and I mouseclick, and I think Fury is a good movie”.

I foresee so much disgust for the future that I want to vomit presently

spoj.9672:

Gambling is bad folks!

But it makes us feel like Esportz!

RemiRome.8495:

Faux.1937:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Anything that is not D/F ele, like really, anything but that

D/F ele so szlachta

LOL wow… you know s/d or s/f isnt always the best, SPECIALLY if you have 2 eles…. one should go staff at that point.

Of course he knows that. That’s why he said D/F.

Twice.

He must be one of the pagans I still have left to convert to the one and only true godly build: the Divine/Faith ele. Some heathens do not even know that it exists, but we shall remedy this with tact and diplomacy

Anything that is not D/F ele, like really, anything but that

D/F ele so szlachta

I missed the elephant in the room!

Just to know, which class are you interested in?

Dexlmentia.7391:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

skills. Apart for might stacking, this weapon is simply weak overall in a PvE context (and PvP too really).

Is camping fire in staff truly the highest dps an ele can do or are some builds with dagger main hand in lightning in any way comparable?

If we are talking only in terms of DPS then staff is indeed the top weapon, and D/F builds deal noticeably less damage. Keep in mind that I am purely talking about DPS in an optimal situation where rotations are unhindered and no other output than damage is required. It is important to mention this because it is in such situation and only in such situation that staff stands out. However, the D/F rotation is not as easy to perform as that of staff, therefore staff may prevail even in sub-optimal situations due to its ease of execution.

If we take into consideration the other important combat factors, such as might-stacking and defense broadly speaking, then D/F quickly becomes more competitive.

I leveled up with staff and I rushed through most of the content using that weapon. At that time most players were following daphoenix’s bunker-D/D advice, so Sabull and I theorycrafted the optimal staff rotations that have since then placed this weapon at the top of the food chain. But I quickly quit using it, because I was not satisfied with simply “getting the job done” anymore and I wanted to use a larger array of output in order to push my performance. Soon it became obvious to me that D/F was king because we could stack the fire patches of burning speed’s trail, which yielded a DPS definitely comparable to that of staff (note, you can still do that on large bosses like Lupicus ). But that trick has been taken away from us by Anet, so now D/F is the best build of everything including support, defense, control, versatility, adaptability, and fun, but not DPS.

Something tells me that D/F will keep gaining popularity, especially as the expansion content becomes available, so for those who still have doubts about that godly build maybe now is the time to change your mind and start training!