Guild Wars 2

BrazenNL.9857:

Water 2 for the Chill

You mean water 4?

Then it is indeed pretty low. First, note that the complete channel time for Arc Lightning is not 3 seconds, but 3.6, and it has a 0.35s aftercast, so the complete animation time is 3.95s. From your statement I understand that the first ticks of AL deal 400 damage while the end ticks reach 1500, this would mean that a complete animation of the skill deals about 2400 Damage per second. As a comparison, if you were using Lightning Whip instead you would deal around 3800 DPS with the same gear.

But you are right when you say that AL is by no mean worse than the other sceptre skills. Apart for might stacking, this weapon is simply weak overall in a PvE context (and PvP too really).

Is this in PvE or PvP?

But we do not have a forum specialist? Will our message get to the devs? Do they read past the first messages of any thread, or do they read the threads at all?

Your move, devs!

Lishtenbird.2814:

Confirmed to be working as intended by a Dev:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Can we have a minute of silence in memory of the only dev that actually cared for dungeons?

tear in my eye

Guys, I couldn’t read through all the posts because it would give me a headache, but allow me to settle whatever debate there is:

Damage multipliers stack multiplicatively, I tested this myself when the first DPS calculators were made. The game rounds some numbers.

So in the post I quoted from Jon, he said 5 occurrences of 10% multipliers would give a 50% damage boost while it is in fact a (1.1)^5-1=61% damage increase. But let’s be fair: he probably used the additive method for the sake of simplicity. He was wrong about the argument though

I like the GW2 way of dealing with damage modifiers. I find it much more intuitive than the way of most other games: if you pick +10% you get +10% in every case. This makes decision making simple and effective. I wish every aspect of the game followed this philosophy, but many things are hidden behind a superfluous wall of complexity (skill animation times for example).

rotten.9753:

10% is 10%. Math is simple.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/December-10th-Elementalist-changes/page/7#post3150470

I think I’ve been here too long

But then we would have issues with enemy mob stat scaling instead of ours

I used to hate this bug too, but now in addition to pressing the forward key I press both mouse buttons during the RtL animation (which is a move forward command) and this solves the problem most of the time.

maha.7902:

So if you want to get challenging PvE content you would need advanced and intelligent content that changes – that is unpredictable. Content that takes A LONG TIME to find out the right way to be even successfull.

and if MMO developers knew how to do this they would already be doing it since it would cut their workload post-release down a lot since people will still be enjoying it and figuring it out rather than having to rush new content out

This has been done in other action games, not MMO though (to my knowledge). One of the main reasons why it is hard to implement diablo-like systems in an MMO is the lore: random enemy characteristics and random events are not very immersion-friendly. However, GW2 devs have conveniently built an area in the game where virtually anything is possible: fractals of the mists with their mistlock instabilities! Therefore if there is one MMO where PvE could be re-imagined to be challenging and provide endless replayability it is definitely GW2. The canvas is in place, now all they need is the will to make a masterpiece.

I played holy trinity games many years in my life, as a healer, and yeah I could finish the hardest PvE content competitively by skill clicking. I don’t want that.

I fully agree with Nikaido: Challenging content should then test the players on their responsiveness.

This means that players should face a bit of unexpected content, such as randomness in event timings, or random enemy characteristics (diablo-like).

But more importantly, PvE gameplay needs to get closer to PvP gameplay. For instance mobs need to be less static, they need to have less health but more engaging mechanics, and killing enemies should not always be the primary objective.

Thanks for spreading D/F love <3

Lawful.5314:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Lawful.5314:

Water and arcane are by no means OP, just that the class has no survivability to go for offensive traits.
To be honest, we have amazing traits in stone and fire too, but well, good luck with those when you are squishy as an ele and have no reliable condi clearing except for your traits.

The class does not get its survivability from passive attributes. That’s given.
This is also the case for thieves and mesmers. Thieves have invisibility and big damage; mesmers have decoys, controls, and big damage. I would say that the survivability of these classes is more in-built than ours (auras, control, heals).

Umm…?

Soothing mist, soothing wave, healing ripple, cleansing wave, cleansing water (5/6)
Renewing stamina, Lingering Elements, Elemental Atunement, Evasive Arcana (4/6)

Are all defensive traits taken for survivability, i am not sure how they are not.
Its healing and healing and condi clear plus buffs gotten from swapping attunement with the most important ones being obviously earth for protection and water for condi clear and healing again.

Yeah, as i said, we run 6 arcana and water for survivability, not for anything else, the damage boost we get from those traits is highly circumstantial.

Allow me to make it more clear:
In-built defensive tools =weapon skills that heal, auras, skills that control etc
Traits = not in-built

rotten.9753:

Is Furious Grip OP?

Nope.

In theory 9s of fury with a trigger mechanic that has a 10s cd is quite good for a master trait (although weapon swapping is mechanically inferior to attunement swapping). But in practice this trait gives 5s of fury apparently?

Lawful.5314:

Water and arcane are by no means OP, just that the class has no survivability to go for offensive traits.
To be honest, we have amazing traits in stone and fire too, but well, good luck with those when you are squishy as an ele and have no reliable condi clearing except for your traits.

The class does not get its survivability from passive attributes. That’s given.
This is also the case for thieves and mesmers. Thieves have invisibility and big damage; mesmers have decoys, controls, and big damage. I would say that the survivability of these classes is more in-built than ours (auras, control, heals).

Now we boost our sustain to high levels by traiting heavility in water and arcane. These traits are honestly OP compared to most other classes. Not all of them, but some, like Healing Ripple, Soothing Mist, Arcane Fury, Elemental Attunement, and Evasive Arcana. These traits are OP, but this is not a problem because we need OP traits to compensate for the overall weakness of our skills.

Fire, earth and air traits are more in line with the traits of other classes. Therefore they really pale in comparison to water and arcane.

For example, we can trait in air (S/F) to gain damage comparable to that of thieves, but that leaves all our survivability to in-built tools, which are lackluster.

Fire, air and earth need to give us survivability tools that are as OP easy to use as water & arcane. Blinding Ashes is a step in the right direction, bu the devs insist on crippling it with an overall instead of a per-target ICD, thereby making it not OP unreliable and therefore useless. I am giving this example because the devs need to understand that it takes already enough attention to use all our skills right, so we do not need to spend more attention on using our traits right. A trait like Blinding Ashes is just incongruous. If you look further you will find no other trait outside of water & arcane that give us meaningful survivability tools (seriously move Burning Fire to adept!). Some of them would be desirable, but they always lack the synergy that water & arcane provide.

The alternative is to give us damaging potential in fire & air (& earth). By damaging I mean more damaging than thieves, in order to compensate for our poor in-built defensive tools.

And finally, if you just look at traits outside of water & arcane you really start to think that the devs did not want us to put points there: Flame Barrier, Sunspot, Conjurer, all Alacrity traits, One with Fire, Zephyr’s Speed, Zephyr’s Focus, Soothing Winds, Earthen Blast, Obsidian Focus, are all complete jokes.

Supreme.3164:

Bran.7425:

I by no means am an expert on all of the professions, but having played from beta I can only really gather one thing:

The issue with the elementalist balancing is the line between garbage and godhood is very thin and so the changes tend to hokey-pokey elementalist in elementalist out.

That’s because ele is only really good as bunker, you nerf the bunker option and you can delete the class

Well that’s only because Anet insists on making water & arcane traits OP while making sure than all other trait lines are worthless

The good
The variety. I can assume so many play style with a single character. As my play time is not extensive, maxing out one character allows me to enjoy every aspect of the game without investing resources in alts. My favourite play-style is support and the elementalist is definitely well built for this in PvP as well as PvE. I like magic. I like to electrocute my enemies Darth Sidious style. But most importantly I like to feel useful what ever the situation and who ever my teammates. What makes me play the elementalist: the entertainment I get from the complexity of the class.

The bad
The learning curve. It is an active class where every one of your actions makes a difference. You need to think a lot, you need to be focused, and if you want to perform well you need to train. This is “bad” but it also gives me a sense of reward: I feel good when I fully master an encounter. However, I dislike the opinion that other classes’ players have of elementalists. Often we are perceived as facerolling while there is a lot of thought involved. Many of our opponents despise us because they think performing well with the ele is easy – it is not. How to get good with the ele? Read my guides ^^ And practice sensibly: anyone can improve fast with the right mind discipline.

The build
I play high-end PvE and PvP. In PvE, obviously I use the build I invented: D/F. Staff is still my side-weapon, for when I need to be more specialized than I usually am, but this weapon bores me as I used it for leveling and its play-style is not diversified. In PvP, I am quite a fan of D/D, but I also use staff on some maps when I have the right team for it.

_

Final words?
As critical as I am towards Anet, I must admit that playing the elementalist has been my best combat experience of my entire gaming life

Introduce gw2dungeons,net, the record system and the tournaments (yes)!

Let’s show the world how this community has transformed a stagnant game into hours of endless fun and challenge

#WeAreTheLivingStory

Brokenangel.1389:

^^^

You don’t really hybridize elementalists.

I’m speaking from a PvE perspective & overall, the nice thing is that with one weapon you get 20 skills (love it)!

In general the “only” PvE build out there for elementalists is Zerker. Your weapon greatly defines how the build works. I personally prefer staff.

Yep. And for me, anything be scepter works!

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

You haven’t settled anything. You still don’t understand.

You’re asking a bunch of Elementalists why do we think the Elementalist is OP. None of us think it’s OP. None of us can think of a reason it is considered OP. We all play the class and know it’s not OP. Even if you’re a bad player or a good player no one here thinks the Elementalist is OP. We’re all aware of it’s advantages the class has as well as all painfully aware of it’s limitations.

If you want other people’s opinions on the matter, you have to go elsewhere to get them. Debating whether or not the Elementalist is OP in an Elementalist forum where Elementalists come is entirely and completely pointless.

= “I do not have the answer you are looking for”

Thanks Kodiak, I highly enjoyed this fruitful discussion with you

deSade.9437:

how is pve supposed to be ever-changing and a continuous challenge to overcome with improvisation?!

Because it has been designed this way in other games. I have diablo in mind, but there are other examples.

Apart from that, no need to get angry I was explaining my opinion of why I understand the view of the OP, no big deal. My apologies for the “monkey” metaphore … bleh.

Edit coz FC:

hybrid.5027:

So you just don’t like the concept of PvE in general. Even the most complex and interesting raid boss possible is just a “few tricks” and reproducing what you learned by heart. Fair enough, I’m one of the few who didn’t enjoy gw1 pve since the pvp experience was so good, so I get it.

Yep, I think you are right. Although I would say I enjoyed the PvE in other games where new content was existent not so rare: the feeling of having to rush and strive to beat it satisfied me. I did not kill Arthas HM more than twice

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

:)

hybrid.5027:

Oh boy another one of these posts.

I don’t know how to respond without anger.

Not trying to tease you or anything, but “stacking in the corner and AOE” is exactly the reason why I hardly play PvE anymore. I like unexpected challenges, I like improvising, I don’t like feeling like a monkey who has been taught a few tricks and the only test is just to reproduce what you learned by heart. My heart simply isn’t up for this.

Diggidy.2856:

Do ele’s spec into support roles anymore?

Things have changed a bit

Kodiak.3281:

@Zelyhn Again your problem is not your logic nor is it that people aren’t logical it’s that there are scenarios and situations where logic or being right simply have no bearing. Very few people will ever have the courage to look at what went wrong, analyze what they could have done differently, what actually happened vs what they assume happened, and make corrections. Most people are going to go, “Man that ele is such BS I bursted him and he healed to full and then he just killed me and I couldn’t do anything.” even when it has nothing to do with what actually happened.

It’s an emotional response where someone is mad and they aren’t thinking logically. Turning around and rebuking that emotional response and putting it back on the person will invariably be seen as an attack. This creates an antagonized situation that most people tend to want to avoid thus, the only real response in this scenario is to simply sit back, be quiet and ignore it and hope the emotion subsides.

Ok, I get your point. But my assumption remains valid: I can not imagine top PvP players to have emotional responses to any given problem. Actually, it is the fact that these players are more analytic and critically self-aware that makes them top players. Therefore if they were to say that the D/D ele is OP they would have non-emotional reasons for it. These are the reasons I am looking for.

And well, all it would take to change the opinion of the less-top-player masses is a few pros persuading them (yes, persuading, not convincing) that the ele is not actually OP and that it is possible to deal with this class just fine (=l2p).

This is why I chose to completely ignore the emotional responses. Look at the last patch notes: people on the forums were expressing “omg ele nerf again omg” thoughts and they were wrong of course. I am fairly certain that devs also ignore these kinds of fantasies. So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

Kodiak.3281:

That’s where you’re wrong, as you asked us to enlighten you.

Objective truth, while very informative, is often times not very useful because it doesn’t really propose a path forward but simply explain what is happening. Analyzing that it’s the players who are wrong, while accurate, isn’t a solution. Telling players to nut up and “l2p” also isn’t an acceptable solution. Their only choices involve either nerfing the class in some way to allow other players to counter the class easier or do and say nothing and hope players figure it out.

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Edit:
By default I always assume that the people I am talking to are logical and sensible. I might be overly optimistic but with this paradigm in mind I cannot understand how anyone would not recognize that there is a l2p issue if there is one. Since people do not seem to acknowledge this kind of issue, I assume that my analysis is wrong. This is why I look for alternative explanations. This is where you are supposed to enlighten me.

But it does not matter what they can do, I am interested in the objective truth

I read the posts of this thread, because I was really looking for the reason why we should get a nerf.

The “we can do everything well” is irrelevant, since this is the class design.

So the issue comes mainly from 1v1 viability.

I must admit, I win the majority of my 1v1. But why? This is in no way related to the amulet: a tweaks in the numbers should only make fights closer, but I usually win by a large margin because I can use my ele assets efficiently. But most importantly: when ever I fight 1v1 I find that my opponents hardly understand what I am doing, they do not predict, they do not react, they are not interacting! In fact I rarely see an opponent actively trying to hinder my performance: they do not dodge efficiently, or at all. For instance, if I fight a warrior I know that I can at most eat one eviscerate in the beginning of the fight and then I would still win if I do everything else perfectly. More than a few mistakes and I am done. But the warrior will eat Burning Speed, Earthquake, Lightning Touch, etc. Most opponents do not actively try to counter us. I guess that they simply do not understand what we do.

The point is: maybe the problem comes from others. Just like the ele had a l2p problem for a long time, now other classes have a l2p problem against us.

But I could be wrong. If so, please enlighten me

Pretty much all the elementalists I encounter do RtL – Updraft – BS … Whyyyyyyy? It’s the most predictable move ever! It’s super easy to counter or dodge, and in addition wasting updraft for this is terrible. There are so many better ways to land BS, and you should always keep updraft for when it is actually needed.

Lawful.5314:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Wait.
Sceptre is bad in PvE, it is only used for burst might stacking, but then it needs to be replaced by a conjured weapon. Speaking of which, the shield and the axe are of little to no use.
The OP did not ask about PvP, Lawful would you please stop mixing these two game modes???
Gah!

He asked for every case, WvW counts as PvP you ignorant…person.

Although I would classify it as PvP in a way, most people assume it is PvE. I mean like you hit doors most of the time anywyay so …

Lawful.5314:

In PvE every weapon is great, in PvP, we have some builds that are better than others, and fit different playestyles.
The D/D build is usually the bunker cele meta build that focuses on survivability with decent damage.
D/F , F/S , F/D are usually fresh air builds that focus on burst more than anything else.
And Staff is something like a backline supporter type weapon, with which you can hugely influence the flow of battle with your big aoe’s , support and CC, as long as you aren’t left alone to get eaten by that pesky thief.

Wait.
Sceptre is bad in PvE, it is only used for burst might stacking, but then it needs to be replaced by a conjured weapon. Speaking of which, the shield and the axe are of little to no use.
The OP did not ask about PvP, Lawful would you please stop mixing these two game modes???
Anyway, “F/S” and “F/D” do not exist, and staff is not a backline supporter: it is a point stander and you can perfectly 1v1 thieves and win.
Gah!

Malchior.5732:

These forums never cease to amaze me, really. One month people are complaining about Ele being unstoppable and murdering everyone in return and the next month the same build has a lack of damage and can only function as a bunker.

Some people on these forums

dlonie.6547:

Makes sense. It isn’t really “collaborative” when it’s just us talking at a wall anyway.

Is FDI ok? Futile Discussion Initiative?

Or TIAD?

This is absolutely doable

The best weapon ever is your determination and your will to learn about when to use each of the nine weapons we can use as elementalists

hint

Simzero.7483:

Silverwastes

http://imgur.com/pjvZPlm

Lawful.5314:

https://.../PvP-Guide

!

To answer your statement OP, if you are looking for signet builds I cannot help you, but I can help you with D/F: check my guide

They are also not aware that ride the lightning goes on double cooldown if you hit but the target is not affected (block, evade, etc)

Still

Gaile Gray.6029:

definitely on their radar.

you mean … table?

Are you using staff or conjures?

Anyway this is Keyz’s answer in her guide:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Trinkets and Infusions
Mighty Infusions are better for LH builds, Precise otherwise.

I have not updated my calculator yet so I cannot confirm, but she is quite reliable

Junkpile.7439:

Weird thread. I heard that D/D ele is easy class. You just need to push some buttons random order and you always win.

That’s hambow warrior, wrong thread

You are correct, only S/F has more build variety in the meta.

I play staff frequently and it is true that I pose little threat to mesmers, but they cannot stand on point. I can usually survive long enough, therefore I call this a win.

Staff is perfectly viable in PvP, so we have a total of three main builds.

Guys, D/F is designed for solo, trust me

The only reason I theorycrafted an optimal rotation for D/F is for group content purposes, but otherwise I am hardly using that (only on some bosses).

The “tankiness” of D/F comes from its versatility. You are never going to be truly in melee, you are going to be kiting a lot, and you can efficiently respond to a lot of situations. The key is use to water and earth to ensure your safety via controls, reflects, blocks, etc. Then when you master the encounters you can start focusing more on might stacking.

Glyph of elemental Powers is one of my favorite tool to survive with this build. I often take quick glyphs instead of bolt to the heart, then GoEP and glyph of storms are my best friends. Glyph of elemental harmony cast in water is also a life saver.

This is why you need to understand the mindset behind a build

Have you actually tested that cleansing waters can be activated from rune triggers? From what I remember, is does not work with Dwayna’s.

You can get the dungeoneer title just from pvp …

I suspect the reason why he uses geomancy is actually to add carpet condis so that the burn is not easy to cleanse.

Well the correct solution is: don’t have alt accounts, Anet does not deserve the money anyway

(Yes I am writing this on my third alt account)

I’m going to try this!

FrownyClown.8402:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Milennin.4825:

If you don’t stack Might before a battle you’re a bad Elementalist

Today is the day I learned I am a bad elementalist

pretty sure thats my name.

Well you’ve been cloned, a lot!

Dub.1273:

And since all that is barely ever met, plus the fact that most fights don’t take very long it just happens that elementalists deal up to twice the damage of other professions.

Guess I’ll never understand why all those theoretical numbers are so beloved when they have pretty much no relation to what’s really happening.

If a theoretical work does not reflect what is happening in-game then it is not a good theoretical work

Try to make it clear whether you are speaking about pvp or pve.

The ele has changed a lot in PvE, also we have learned so many new and more efficient ways to play it. Currently the ele in number one in PvE.