Guild Wars 2

The problem with Crowd Control builds is most trash mobs die too quick for it to matter and most bosses are immune to it anyway. Short of severely nerfing Defiance while upping the damage output of bosses I don’t see a way around this, either.

Vargamonth.2047:

Elrey.5472:

JonPeters.5630:

We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

Jon

What bothers me is not that zerkers do more damage, but the point that zerkers can ignore most of the mechanics due to killing bosses before they can use their skills.

If an enemy do a really big attack each 45 seconds but you kill the boss in 40 seconds… there is the reason of why I hate zerker. It’s cheating in a sort way of speaking.

That’s clearly one of the biggest issues with zerker in PvE. It’s supposed to be a risk vs reward spec, but sometimes (too many times if the group is coordinated enough and stacks boon/vulnerability correctly) it can easily bypass that risk.
The easiest solution would be just about increasing armor/HP on enemies , but then the game could become extremely annoying for all those “play what you want” groups.

I would say swarms of trash mobs might make Toughness, Vitality, and/or Crowd Control a bit more appealing, but since most of the Berserker/DPS builds include plenty of cleave I don’t think it would make much of a difference.

Bear in mind, this thread isn’t just about balancing numbers. It includes fundamental changes to the way skills function for the sake of one area of the game over any other; I wouldn’t want PvP players to get hosed because of PvE anymore than I like getting hosed because of PvP.

Morrigan.2809:

darkace.8925:

They’re just going to add an ascended crafting material to the game (akin to Deldrimor Steel, Elonian Leather, Damask, etc). That item? Bacon, of course! Bacon will be added to current level 80 dishes to make ascended versions (Bacon Wrapped Truffle Steak, Bowl of Fancy Potato and Bacon Soup, etc).

I was thinking sushi but bacon works

It would be nice to get some more use out of Seaweed. It’s a level 80 material, and I think it’s only used in one recipe. Of course we’d need fish to make sushi. And what better way to get fish than fishing. I’m going to change my vote from bacon to sushi.

Hobbitz.5831:

The price point on a BL claim ticket is roughly $40. That makes each skin cost around $200 if you just buy keys with real cash.

Personally, I think that’s outrageous for a skin.

Agreed. Especially so considering this game’s end game was supposed to be all about collecting cool weapon and armor skins.

Darthaemos.6370:

I’d love weather and day/night cycles from “The Witcher” series. When it randomly rains, NPCs (all of them, including vendors, quest givers, and random wanderers) will run to find shelter, then return to their spots when the rain ends. This made the zones feel so much more alive and organic.

That’s exactly the kind of ambiance I’d love to find in this game.

Brother Dulfite.5793:

darkace.8925:

The baseline of any epic might be hardship, but the baseline of the casual player’s ability to enjoy a game is “accessibility” (read: lack of hardship/difficulty).

Yeah because that TOTALLY explains why WoW has lasted all these years with an insane player base that doesn’t mind traveling everywhere, having to get on boats to go to parts of the world, etc.

There are a LOT of people including myself who would like gw2 even more if there weren’t any waypoints or portals and people actually had to travel and see how beautiful the game is. Maybe not most gamers, but a lot of us.

WoW? As in World of Warcraft? As in that game that was dumbed down, or “casualized” in an effort to make it more accessible? As in that game whose developers said, “everyone pays the same subscription fee, so everyone should get to experience the same content regardless of skill level.” That WoW?

They’re just going to add an ascended crafting material to the game (akin to Deldrimor Steel, Elonian Leather, Damask, etc). That item? Bacon, of course! Bacon will be added to current level 80 dishes to make ascended versions (Bacon Wrapped Truffle Steak, Bowl of Fancy Potato and Bacon Soup, etc).

Vixon.8032:

Why is it impossible to get a black lion key from a mob drop?

Vixon.8032:

It just feels like a cash grab item to me.

You answered your own question.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Why the hell would you want a new race over a new class? Race has nothing to do with evolving gameplay and is purely cosmetic.

This may have escaped you, but some people place high value in cosmetics when it comes to MMOs. This also may have escaped you, but some people enjoy the story and lore when it comes to RPGs. I might be mistaken, but I do believe Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG.

EFWinters.5421:

Why does PvE balance matter, if I may ask? A blind monkey could do PvE in GW2. People could probably run Arah naked. A level 1 could get gold from the highest level events. You can earn living story achievements by buying things off the TP and being a clicking enthusiast.

Yes, you may see lower numbers on some of your spells, but does it really impact you in any way at all?

It matters because there are people who enjoy it. As long as there are people who enjoy it, the developers should be cognisant that the changes they make for PvP might negatively affect people who enjoy PvE. And, purposefully or not, you’re ignoring the fact that there has been difficult PvE content and that the developers can, at any time, add more difficult PvE content.

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

You’re missing a huge aspect of what kept people playing Guild Wars: the expansions. Every year we got what was essentially a whole new game; complete with a new story, new classes, new areas to explore, new skills, and new features. Don’t underestimate the amount of longevity the expansions added, or the interest they generated among non/potential players.

The baseline of any epic might be hardship, but the baseline of the casual player’s ability to enjoy a game is “accessibility” (read: lack of hardship/difficulty).

Gingelyr.3648:

My one horizontal paradigm:
Build flexibility. I want to feel like as I play my character more, I become more and more flexible in the types of content that I am prepared for.

It does suck that we’re forced to use the weapons that work rather than the weapons we want to use. Take warrior hammers, for example. They’re clearly designed for PvP. No warrior in their right mind would bring a hammer to a dungeon/fractal over a great sword. But if you like the play style or love the look, or if you’ve invested a ton time and gold into crafting say Juggernaut, then you’re forced to choose between shelving your first choice for optimization or running what you want to run at the expense of yourself and your party.

BobbyStein.2315:

Actually, we have metrics on every LW release. While SAB was indeed successful in terms of participation, so were the other releases (Scarlet ones included). I understand that forum feedback can color perception on which releases were the most popular/best received/most enjoyed but opinions on this are largely anecdotal. Please keep that in mind.

Thanks for weighing in on this topic; it’s nice to hear from you guys when you get the chance to converse with us. As to your metrics, I just want to point out (and I’m sure you already know this) that there’s a difference between participation and enjoyment. If you put enough achievement points or a flashy enough weapon/armor skin at the end of a root canal, I suspect there would be no shortage of players willing to suffer through it to get their carrot.

Perhaps you guys could implement some sort of in-game survey after completion of various content/activities (similar to those used during the BWEs)? I wouldn’t force players to take the survey, so I’d tuck it away in the UI menu somewhere. But it could be a useful tool to determine what players actually enjoy, as opposed to whether or not they’re just showing up for the rewards. It may be the case that you guys don’t care if we enjoy it so long as we’re participating, but hopefully that’s not the case.

Once again you guys are getting caught up in the minutia and semantics and narrow-focused specifics. Big picture: they promoted the game as being X (and in my opinion, they delivered what they promoted). But then they reversed course and changed the game into whatever the opposite of X is, which is something they’d specifically and explicitly said Guild Wars 2 wouldn’t be.

I don’t think they should affect actual gameplay, but I do think night should be darker and weather should be dynamic.

Orpheal.8263:

And this isn’t a Suggestion forum.
Only because Anet removed temporarely the Suggestion Sub Forum, while they are working on some Forum Changes, doesn#t mean that people should start now to turn the Game Discussion Sub Forum into a Suggestion Forum

Can’t people just wait a few days, until ANet has made their changes on the Forum their were talking of and which has been officially announced a few days ealier?

Actually, that’s EXACTLY what the removal of the Suggestion sub-forum means. ArenaNet has stated as much.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I actually took the time to read your wall of text. What I gather from it is that you don’t like microtransactions. That’s fine. But a majority of your claims are completely based on the perception of just you and a small percentage of others in the game.

“Small percentage”? I’m going to have to ask you to post a link to your hard, statistical data showing one side or the other is a “small percentage”.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The biggest mistake you make is saying Gem store items are superior quality to in game rewards. I’m guessing your opinion is based on certain skins that have more animated effects than in game armor. While true to an extent, you forget that there’s in game skins that are just as flashy, and can be obtained without having to spend a single Gem (i.e. Legendary weapons, Zephyr backpieces, etc).

Let’s play a game, shall we? You list all the weapon and armor skins that have been added as rewards for in-game content since launch and I’ll do the same for weapon and armor added to the gem shop. The player with larger list wins. Okay, go!

And by the way, remember that Colin Johanson himself said about end game, “the rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff .” So by that standard, Guild Wars 2’s end game is tied directly to the cash shop. Ain’t it grand?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

On the topic of expansions, the Living Story aims to provide an expansion’s worth of content for free. Microtransactions help to fund such ventures. Without people like me who spends money on Gems, people who just play the game without additional purchases wouldn’t benefit.

First, the Living Story does NOT aim to provide an expansion’s worth of content for free. It aims to keep players logging in on a frequent basis. Second, the Living Story hasn’t provided anywhere near the amount or quality seen in traditional MMO expansions. Third, just what kind of benefit do you think you’re providing those who don’t purchase gems? I’ve no doubt ArenaNet appreciates your money, but you are NOT some hero providing the rest of us some service for which we should thank you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You can think how you want about Gem transactions. If you feel that a player like me having access to pretty armor skins, or a “large” mini golem is destroying the game, perhaps you should take a look in the mirror, and ask yourself “Why does that bother me?” In the end, we both play the same game, and have access to the same content. I just might stand out more.

If you think the game’s end game being tied directly to the cash shop isn’t a bad thing then perhaps you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself “why doesn’t that bother me?”

And you’re still missing the point, by the way. Those of us who want things like new features (player housing, guild vs guild, new races, new classes, new regions to explore, etc) and quality of life improvements (bug fixes, class balance, etc) aren’t getting what we need because too many of the resources that could provide those are being used to create more and more gem shop items for you to buy.

And then there’s the whole “end game is about collecting cool looking weapons and armor” while most new weapons and armor have been added to the gem shop, not the game. Spending money in a cash shop should not be considered end game content for an MMO.

Kaleban.9834:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

Impossible to say until we see it in practice. I just point to the fact that buying gems is also “Opt in” while the focus on gem-sales is also destroying the game so just the fact that something is “Opt in” does not mean it’s not a problem.

But how is Gem sales destroying the game? I’m very interested in how you come to this claim.

The argument could be that gem sales equals development income, and is a revenue stream. Since other avenues of development are admittedly shoddy (Living Story comes to mind, palette shifted weapon models for Ascended gear rather than different models for each variety, etc.) its somewhat obvious that programming and development resources would be focused on avenues that generate a revenue stream.

This causes a cycle that feeds upon itself, since to continue development of the game, money is required. So development tends to narrow its focus to those areas that generate income. Which detracts from the overall quality of the game over time, as more and more resources are funneled to the income generating areas of development.

It could be argued that by buying gems, one is injecting cash that will help develop content in the game as a whole, but most business models (at least, successful ones) tend to focus efforts on revenue generating avenues to the exclusion of all else.

I’d say that since GW2’s release there has been a steady decline in content, balance and overall quality of gameplay, while there has been a steady and growing amount of items and services available solely via purchasing gems.

See, this guy (gal?) gets it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

Impossible to say until we see it in practice. I just point to the fact that buying gems is also “Opt in” while the focus on gem-sales is also destroying the game so just the fact that something is “Opt in” does not mean it’s not a problem.

But how is Gem sales destroying the game? I’m very interested in how you come to this claim.

Because too many resources are pumped into the gem shop and not nearly enough are allocated to introducing the kind of high quality content we all expected (and got) when we bought the game.

killcannon.2576:

darkace.8925:

killcannon.2576:

Sub based and hybrid model MMO’s have a significantly larger player base and income than either f2p or b2p models.

Absolutely false.

lol, sorry. Tis true. You can add together every single non hybrid f2p and b2p MMO’s income and players and it wouldn’t even top WoW’s, not to mention if you add on DCUO, Rift, SWTOR, and the myriad others. Hybrid model is quickly becoming the standard, and will most likely be what all western MMO’s switch to over time. F2P and B2P will never disappear, but they draw an entirely different crowd due to the mechanics on offer in those payment models.

The mistake that so many make is that they think an Eastern based MMO system will work in the west, and it simply doesn’t. It all just depends on where you are.

Yeah, I misread your post and deleted mine shortly after posting.

lordkrall.7241:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The poster of this has very reliably brought us datamined info for the last 9+ months. Almost 100% of what he has posted has been implemented into the game. The only thing I haven’t seen implemented that he has found, is precursor crafting, which we know is coming.

Actually it is more like 60% of what he have posted have appeared in the game. And the fact that ArenaNet KNOWS people are data-mining everything, it is quite unlikely that they would put something like this in without any kind of announcement prior.

“Quite unlikely” is quite a speculative statement. And the fact that you posted this implies you know it’s dirty pool; so I’m going to remind you in a few weeks/months when you’re defending it’s implementation that you once acknowledged that it wasn’t a cool thing to add to the game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I hope this is true, as I’ll be one of the first in line to purchase the VIP Membership. Gem purchasing players should be recognized as someone who supports this game. Perhaps some type of unique glowing aura to represent our Elite status?

Buying gems makes one elite? As a FFXI veteran who cleared CoP years before it was nerfed, I laugh at your notion of elite.

killcannon.2576:

To the actual MMO crowd? It is a good thing.

How so? Where is your source citing the developers statement that the implementation of a subscription fee would mean a shift away from gem shop-driven design or fully-polished content rather than bite-sized filler Living Story content?

lordkrall.7241:

Why assume they didn’t just add it in there as a joke? They are fully aware that people are actively data-mining everything after all and it would seem quite silly to add something like this to the dat-file without even talking about it first.

Why on earth would you, or anyone else, assume this is a joke? What’s the more likely scenario here: that they would be so tactless to pretend to be adding something that would so greatly upset a very large number of their customers? Or that this is actually something they’re considering/have decided to add to the game?

killcannon.2576:

And your only point that I can see was that you were quitting because someone else may choose to pay a fee for some nebulous benefits that would not change your experience at all.

More power to you.

I’ll remember you said that when you, Vayne, Smooth Penguin, and Volkron are the only people left playing the game. You four might as well decide now which of the abandoned servers you’re going to call home.

I’ve got a question to those of you who praised the Living Story while telling those of us who wanted an expansion that we didn’t need one: do you honestly think ArenaNet would add such an item as this if the Living Story was generating the kind of income you’ve been telling yourself it’s been generating?

I don’t know about you, but all of a sudden an expansion looks like it would have been the smart way to go…for both parties (developers and players).

lordkrall.7241:

Lets not jump ahead of things now shall we.
Until we have confirmation this is actually a thing it would be best to assume that it is either a joke, or something added to the alpha test-servers just to test the waters, or even an offer specific to the Chinese Release of GW2.

If it is indeed a real thing, I have a bit of mixed reactions, but it would all depend on how it would work.

One-time payment? Somewhat okay with it, but borderline.
Sub? Not acceptable, and might turn me off from the game.
Time and/or gems purchase based? Probably the best solution if this is indeed a thing.

“Assume it’s a joke.” Really? I wouldn’t think even you, staunchest of ArenaNet’s defenders, would try to play something like this (a highly controversial item datamined by a reputable member of the community) as a joke.

VOLKON.1290:

morrolan.9608:

VOLKON.1290:

The reason ascended was introduced makes perfect sense in my opinion. They simply didn’t expect exotics to become so plentiful and easy to get.

This is incorrect and has been proven to be so by quotes in this thread.

No it isn’t.

You couldn’t possibly be more wrong. Collin Johanson himself said, and I quote, “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”

CaptainVanguard.4925:

A new race is actually even harder to make because of the fact you’d have to create new animation rigs for an entire race, not to mention new VA scripting, new quest zones and hubs, new personal story updates, new facial models and skin models that takes ‘ages’ to add in comparison to a class.

Balance is actually easy, because its all down to scripting alterations, altering numbers and adding a few new VFX, as well as some new animation rigs but otherwise, the combat plays out the same.

Voice acting, skill animations, weapon and armor skins…these are all exact sciences. Class balance is not. Class balance is actually one of the most difficult challenges MMO developers face. It’s not a technical issue that can be solved by throwing programmers at it; and it’s something that, if done poorly, can have a very negative impact on the player base.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

IF they add a new class, it will be a heavy armor class, specially given they already have 2 of those and 3 of the others.

I would suspect it will either be the “dark knight” stereotype class, in the form of some quasi-evil class that does good through brutality and dark magic (similar to Necro but with armor) or some kind of tech based class, or a Mage in armor, perhaps like the Chronomancer.

A “dark knight” would be nothing more than an almagalation of a warrior and a necromancer and the “time magic” elements of a chronomancer have been subsumed by the mesmer. For these reasons, I wouldn’t bet on either being ever being added to the game.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Either way, there are possibilities for a new class, it seems much more likely we will get this before a new race, the devs themselves stated they are very pensive about adding one.

The developers have already stated, in no uncertain terms, that they’re far more likely to add a new race than a new class.

Azure.8670:

yes, but no idea when. looks more and more like 2015

There’s been no indication that a new class will ever be added to the game, in 2015 or otherwise.

It actually IS a solution to your problem. Your problem is you don’t want to grind out 100% map completion on a second character just to get another Legendary weapon. The solution is you can forgo map exploration and simply buy the Legendary weapon from the Trading Post. If you’re going for a third (or more) Legendary weapon then you’ve got enough gold and/or time to make purchasing a Legendary weapon a viable alternative to crafting one.

Legendary weapons can be purchased from the Trading Post. If you don’t want to grind out more Gifts of Exploration you can instead grind out gold and just buy the Legendary of your choice. It may not be optimal, but alternatives to 100% map exploration are made available to those who don’t wish to do it.

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

I really don’t understand this at all. The idea that somehow dangerous foes have to be big.

Last time I checked, the creatures that have caused the most deaths on the planet earth were fleas and mosquitos…and not the giant kind either.

When I see a giant boss, in games were all bosses are giant, I think, here we go again. The only way to make a boss more powerful is to make him bigger.

Superman and spiderman are pretty powerful and they’re human sized. Why does a boss have to be big to be dangerous?

Edit: Even in Guild Wars 1, in the Ring of Fire mission (the last mission in Prophecies), the tiny sparks were far more dangerous than the giant titans. They were far more likely to kill you.

In MMOs, tougher monsters tend to require larger groups of players to defeat. Larger groups of players can make it tough to see what’s going on unless the monster is of a larger size. It can be tough to time interrupts and dodges against PC-sized or smaller monsters if you can’t see the attack cues through the throng of characters surrounding it. Ergo many, not all, tough MMO monsters are large.

Many of the toughest monsters in the game, all of them in fact, would be in instances, so you’d only have 5 people fighting them though.

False; there are plenty of tough monsters found in the open world. I could list many, but I won’t bother. The fact is MMO developers have been making difficult monsters bigger than their counterparts for more than a decade. That you think size and difficulty shouldn’t be tied together doesn’t matter, because they are. And they have been. And they will continue to be so.

Vayne.8563:

I really don’t understand this at all. The idea that somehow dangerous foes have to be big.

Last time I checked, the creatures that have caused the most deaths on the planet earth were fleas and mosquitos…and not the giant kind either.

When I see a giant boss, in games were all bosses are giant, I think, here we go again. The only way to make a boss more powerful is to make him bigger.

Superman and spiderman are pretty powerful and they’re human sized. Why does a boss have to be big to be dangerous?

Edit: Even in Guild Wars 1, in the Ring of Fire mission (the last mission in Prophecies), the tiny sparks were far more dangerous than the giant titans. They were far more likely to kill you.

In MMOs, tougher monsters tend to require larger groups of players to defeat. Larger groups of players can make it tough to see what’s going on unless the monster is of a larger size. It can be tough to time interrupts and dodges against PC-sized or smaller monsters if you can’t see the attack cues through the throng of characters surrounding it. Ergo many, not all, tough MMO monsters are large.

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

I’d have been rewarded enough if they’d been able to pull off the personality system they originally envisioned wherein charr cubs ran and gladium cowered before my ferocious charr, men cheered and women swooned as my charming human walked the streets of Divinity’s Reach, and citizens and wardens alike saluted my dignified sylvari. Such a system would have been rewarding in its own way without making players feel they should aim for one personality or another. It’s a shame they couldn’t pull that off.

root.9415:

This game having the best graphics of any MMO is one of the few things the GW2 community agrees on pretty much unanimously.

If we’re distinguishing art/style from actual graphics, I think the former is great and the latter is pretty good, but far from cutting edge.

lordkrall.7241:

If you had paid attention to a single thing other than just a video released several years before the game, you would have been fully aware about any things that might have changed (or had been clarified since people did seem to misunderstand things quite a bit.).

They can communicate all they want, but if the players don’t even bother looking at said communication it is utterly pointless.

Did YOU pay attention to a single thing other than just a video? Like, at all? If you did, then you’ve got some pretty selective standards when it comes to defending ArenaNet in regards to them doubling back on the things they said leading up to this game’s launch.

I’m all for the introduction of another Elder Dragon, but only if ArenaNet does it right. I want to trek through new, unexplored lands, hacking my way through Primordus’ minions to get to him…not “Primordus’ minions are attacking Kessex Hill”. So my plea is don’t add another Elder Dragon to the mix until you’re ready ready to properly expand the game.

lordkrall.7241:

Why can’t people that dislike the game simply walk away and let us like it?

If someone’s criticism of a video game negatively affects your ability to enjoy that video game then that’s a problem of your own creation.

Not to be a wet blanket, but the chances of you guys getting a new class anytime soon (read: ever) are slim. Just look at how long it takes them to do anything not related to the Living Story and Gem Shop; new skills, trait adjustments, class balance, quality of life updates…they’re all VERY slow to be implemented. There have been few new armors added to the game, one new zone, no new races, etc. There are too many people working on cranking out LS content and not enough people doing anything else, so I wouldn’t hold my breath for a new class anytime soon.

With that out of the way, a Dark Knight class would just be a boring amalgamation of a warrior and a necromancer. That’s a big, fat “no thanks” from me on that one.

VOLKON.1290:

My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.

I’m still awaiting your response to the points I brought up in my previous post. You can respond factually (logically), or you can respond “feelingsy” (emotionally). But to not respond at all makes you look like you’re ducking an argument that blows holes in pretty much everything you’ve said in defense of ArenaNet.

VOLKON.1290:

darkace.8925:

VOLKON.1290:

I have to admit… I’m still completely in the fog as to how, in any way, shape or form, ascended gear is somehow violating the basic premise behind the manifesto. Yes, there’s a tier of gear with a time-effort behind it, that’s beyond doubt. However there is in no fashion at all anything even remotely resembling the gear treadmill grind so prevalent in other MMOs. When you look at the CDI discussions going on it’s rather clear that there is at the moment no intent to go beyond ascended “power” with the gear, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much discussion on how to progress your characters. With the archaic gear treadmills that is your progression, like it or not.

The problem is, again, people using a distorted definition of grind out of the proper context. If you choose the definition that grind means it takes a lot of time… well, ok, then you could say there’s grind. But if you use the intended definition in context it’s clear they were referring to the endless repetitive cycle of the treadmill where you spend time continually in a cycle of gear replacement as newer content is released. That does not exist in GW2.

Stop focusing on the exact language used in the Manifesto and look instead at the spirit behind it (and all the other interviews, blogs, vlogs, etc) and that fog in which you’re stuck will dissipate in an instant. It’s not about ascended gear, it’s about a wholesale change to the things that were supposed to set this game apart from the rest of the genre.

That’s just the point, I am looking at the spirit behind it! It’s the people twisting the words and meanings into something unintended then claiming the manifesto has somehow been violated that are the problems.

If you are looking at the spirit behind the Manifesto (and other propaganda) then you’re not looking nearly hard enough.

If you’re really looking at the spirit behind what’s been said then I’d like to get your thoughts on ArenaNet justifying the implementation of ascended gear by telling us “we didn’t expect players to get the best gear so quickly” after they’d gone on record saying “we think everyone, including casual players, should have the best gear by the time they hit level 80.”

If you’re really looking at the spirit behind what’s been said then I’d like to get your thoughts on ArenaNet saying they won’t have to “rush to add filler content designed to keep players logging in to chase carrots” before implementing a Living Story system that rushes to add filler content designed to keep players logging in to chase carrots.

I could go on and on, but I won’t. The point is if you’re not seeing why people are upset over not the verbiage of the Manifesto, but the spirit behind it and other interviews, blogs, and other promotional pieces then you’re just choosing NOT to see it.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think this game is going to evolve into a typical MMO.

It already has. And there’s no indication it won’t continue to do so.

Vayne.8563:

I think that Anet has made strides to compromise, because the original game

Compromise indicates two or more parties getting something to satisfy their wants and needs. What have those of us who bought into GW2 because it was supposed to be different from other MMOs got since release? Where’s the compromise?

Vayne.8563:

Now, with the achievements and the living story, the game has gotten a new type of stickiness, something proven to keep a percentage of people. My guess is enough to fund the game.

Your proof has been gathered in a vacuum. The real world isn’t a vacuum. I said long ago that once competition hits the market, many of the achievement/carrot chasing crowd would pack up and move on. Over the next six months, we’re all going to find out who was right: me or you/ArenaNet.

Vayne.8563:

Which means Anet won’t have to go the route of gear progression anymore, because they found another route to stickiness.

That remains to be seen. If people do move on when competition hits the market, there’s the very real possibility they’ll add another tier. And another. And another after that. If the gear treadmill worked before, then there’s nothing to dissuade them from going to that well again.

Vayne.8563:

They can hold and on gain more players now and new players coming in will not have the changes to deal with that older players saw as a betrayal.

Where are these new players going to come from? There are exceptions, but most games don’t add significant players/subscribers a year or more after launch. And I’m not sure why you think they’re going to hold onto what they’ve got. As I’ve said, competition is coming. And the mood both on the forums and in-game gives me the impression many players are burning out and approaching the point of walking away. You’re speculating that the game will not only retain the players it has, but add more. I’ve seen nothing that indicates either of those are assured.

VOLKON.1290:

I have to admit… I’m still completely in the fog as to how, in any way, shape or form, ascended gear is somehow violating the basic premise behind the manifesto. Yes, there’s a tier of gear with a time-effort behind it, that’s beyond doubt. However there is in no fashion at all anything even remotely resembling the gear treadmill grind so prevalent in other MMOs. When you look at the CDI discussions going on it’s rather clear that there is at the moment no intent to go beyond ascended “power” with the gear, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much discussion on how to progress your characters. With the archaic gear treadmills that is your progression, like it or not.

The problem is, again, people using a distorted definition of grind out of the proper context. If you choose the definition that grind means it takes a lot of time… well, ok, then you could say there’s grind. But if you use the intended definition in context it’s clear they were referring to the endless repetitive cycle of the treadmill where you spend time continually in a cycle of gear replacement as newer content is released. That does not exist in GW2.

Stop focusing on the exact language used in the Manifesto and look instead at the spirit behind it (and all the other interviews, blogs, vlogs, etc) and that fog in which you’re stuck will dissipate in an instant. It’s not about ascended gear, it’s about a wholesale change to the things that were supposed to set this game apart from the rest of the genre.

chemiclord.3978:

You’re assuming that would have been enough to placate the locusts (which I am dubious). They WANT the number creep. They would have dismissed your plan as just prettied-up exotics, and rejected it just as wholly as the initial gear progression.

And the monthly Living Story with your “better quality control” (which it really wasn’t, for the record), wasn’t enough either. Players ground through those initial offerings in days and whined they were bored.

See, the people who are trying to hold up the manifesto either can’t (or don’t want to admit) that the locusts are NECESSARY. Arena.net HAS to keep them happy to keep the game solvent. Arena.net’s original plan DIDN’T WORK. Yes, it kitten es off part of the loyal fanbase… but it had to be done.

You have sources to support such a bold claim, I’m sure.

Distaste.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They advertised this game based on several things. The manifesto was one five minute video. That’s what it was. It’s been misinterpreted and lines from it are taken out of context to try to prove specific points. People have ignored the clarification posted three days after it, explaining some confusion. People have ignored the two years of stuff released afterwards explaining everything in much greater detail.

If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.

The other stuff was side bar stuff that if it was important to an individual they focused on it to the exclusion of all else. But it wasn’t what the game was advertised on.

Advertising focus is such that the more times something is mentioned, the more a company talks about it, the more important it is to the product. There are so many discussions around dynamic events and how they work and how they’re made and why they’re better.

The manifesto is a 3 year old 5 minute video. If people watched that and ignored everything said after that it’s not Anet’s fault.

That’s right we ignored things like this said by Mike O’Brian

Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.

So once you realize that you don’t have to run on this gear treadmill to compete, then ask yourself whether you think it’s fair or unfair for players to be able to trade microtransaction currency with other players, which essentially allows some players to trade money for time and other players to trade time for money. I think it’s more fair to allow that.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/21/guild-wars-2-interview-monetization/

Well clearly that’s ambiguous and with just 3 months until launch they could have marketed the game as something completely different! OR it could in fact be that you’re entirely wrong and the game was marketed as not having a stat grind at max level, but rather a cosmetic grind.

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

There is a reason that GW2 was known as the MMO you didn’t have to grind for endgame gear. They said it multiple times and in multiple places. Pretty much any time they brought up legendary weapons they made it clear it was NOT a stat advantage so people who put in more time didn’t have an advantage, they just looked cooler. It might not have been their biggest bullet point, but it was brought up several times; enough times that it was well known.

You need to face facts, ArenaNet has deviated from what they sold at least a part of the game as. There is now a gear treadmill. You certainly do not have the best stat gear by the time you reach 80 and I’d expect most casuals to never have it unless it gets made a lot easier. There is zero room for debate here, Both of those statements are now 100% false.

I’m beginning to think that you’re the one who didn’t listen or read anything ArenaNet said prior to launch.

Vayne knows exactly what was said. But as the facts work against him, he chooses to either ignore them or speculatively pretend the company would have been bankrupt had it not about-faced the ideas they espoused in the articles you linked.

The most fun I had in this game was in the weeks after release exploring the wonderfully crafted zones. Why wouldn’t I want more of that. That, by the way, is something the Living Story, as it’s currently being utilized, cannot and does not deliver.