Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

The only siphon things in the game which currently work have an ICD, either explicit or effective due to their proccing mechanics. This is an undeniable fact, every single one that currently is useful has built-in limiters. Vampiric Master has effective ICDs, runes/sigils/food which we always complain are better than ours, have built in ICDs. Yet ICD will break Vampiric how?

There’s Signet of Malice. I know, not a siphon skill per definition but this discussion here is about healing, not the damage part of vamp traits.

Also, the currently “working things” with a cooldown are all much stronger, like 1k on a leeching charge, 500 on sigil of blood, 300 on food.
Yeah you could make vamp traits have seperate icds per target, but seriously, why?
First of all, this just defeats all the beauty of those traits. Just like you wouldn’t want an icd on your whirl finishers when you spin through a dark field. Some skills just hit more often, so let them synnergize with those traits.
Secondly, if you raised the siphon value and then added a 1 sec icd per target you’d just create a new set of weird outlier scenarios. Like fighting several mesmers, MM necros, spirit rangers, turret engis, or zergs in WvW. Basically any kind of fight with a lot of targets, you could just run through with several aoe skills and basically score that higher vamp siphon for every single hit.

Anchoku.8142:

The problem, I think, with ICD proc’s is they need to be fast enough to proc’ reliably. A powerful proc’ on a long icd is just gambling for a chance at something big. In a fight that takes a limited amount of time, you want the trait to proc at a reliable rate, like every time you enter DS or every time the skill is used.

I would rather heals, skills, conditions, or boons be smaller than wonder if I will get lucky.

That’s very true. No icd restrictions definitely put more control into the player’s hands and therefore promote skillful play rather than luck.

@spoj, regarding Chilling Force. Do you think this trait is enough for self buffing might in PvE or would you rather see a similar trait (like in gm Curses) in addition to that or for builds that don’t want to go with Reaper?

I’m with spoj on this one.

I think with some high(er) impact skills or trait procs an icd per target can make sense, but not with vampiric traits if they just steal a small amount of hp.
Also, the per-hit mechanic is actually really nice and unique here, so just for the sake of that I’d keep them without any restrictions.

And I believe the difference between Reaper’s Shroud and Death Shroud is probably not that much anyway.
Even in a best case scenario where Reaper can siphon from 5 targets and hit with auto attack all the time, with the current siphon values (31per hit, 39 for crits) and let’s say ~15 seconds in RS, you’d probably get about 50 hits more than with DS. And even if all of those hits are critical you’d just get an extra 4k hp, which is really not that much considering you’re in melee range of 5 opponents.

Bhawb.7408:

spoj.9672:

Its not about equalising. Its more about just closing the gap slightly. Which is why id prefer they left it as it is. And increase the proc rate in base DS.

There is no closing the gap slightly. There are builds that can proc it tens of times per second, and builds that won’t proc it more than once or twice. If it was an issue of say the best builds get 50% more use, then who cares. But it isn’t, some builds will get 1000% more effectiveness, and this is in a tree that directly attracts those builds that sit on the extremes, of both sides.

Like I said, it’s a matter of build diversity.
And yes, you could just add an icd to make it fair for builds that hit just once per minute, but seriously that would be so boring and it would limit creative gameplay that is awarded for using combos that hit many times.
Also, I don’t think the gap is that big. Due to the long cooldowns of Shroud skills 2-5 most of the life stealing will be done by the auto attack. So yeah, RS is much faster and cleaves, but what if Life Blast was baseline piercing? You’d have more hits vs more reliable hits from a safer distance.
As for the other skills, Life Transfer with up to 45 hits isn’t bad at all considering that all of them could be critical with Deathly Perception. And that leaves a 3rd core spec (Spite/Curses/DM) while Reapers get Blood Magic, Reaper and then just one additional core.

Anyway, I’d go with no restrictions and just balance for Reaper’s auto attack, then buff regular DS in different ways.

Bhawb.7408:

spoj.9672:

Life stealing should be good with Reaper in DS. But yeah the numbers are probably too small for regular necro in DS. Not sure how they can fix that without imbalancing it on Reaper though.

And this is why I think ICD (just for Vampiric) will be necessary. There is no way you can balance Vampiric to be useful to everyone when weapon proc speeds are so vastly different. So you either have to accept it will be essentially useless on all builds except whichever ones hit fastest.

The way I see it, any restrictions on vamp traits like icds will just cripple the whole concept.
Imo the RS vs DS effectivness is more a matter of build diversity than a balance issue.
Of course you could argue that vamp traits should be equally effective for both Death Shroud and Reaper’s Shroud. However, Soul Eater will be in the Reaper specialization, if you really want to max out your vamp abilities you’ll have to take Reaper’s Shroud anyway. So all things considered, you might as well assume that every siphoning build is going to take Reaper and balance for that, and just accept the fact that a core spec necro is going to be less effective with vamp traits instead of trying to find a compromise.
After that the only question is: can Blood Magic be viable without the Reaper?
This, I believe, depends on the other (non-vamp) traits in that line. Perhaps there could be some traits that have a much stronger synnergy with our regular Death Shroud. Maybe something that is tied to torment or immobilized so it would work better with Tainted Shackles? Maybe a life steal for RS/DS #2 that becomes stronger depending on how far you manage to teleport with Dark Path?
Anyway, you get the idea, I’m sure there is a way to have vamp traits balanced just for Reaper but still give Blood Magic enough versatility to not make it a pointless specialization with Death Shroud.

I think the hardest choice for condition builds will be either taking 3 core specializations or dropping one of them for the Reaper. I’m sure there will be some really strong core-spec condi builds, but let’s face it, Reaper’s Shroud is just sooo much better than our regular Death Shroud, or as it shall henceforth be known as: the Idiot-Shroud.

Overall though, I believe it’s a positive thing that you have to make some difficult choices and can’t have it all in one build. And keep in mind, some core traits are still going to be changed, I’m sure there will be a merged staff trait and Lingering Curse will not go live with 100%. So maybe wait until we actually see the finished product.

Well in that case I’d really wait until we see the finished product, which honestly I hope will no longer have Unholy Martyr at all, or perhaps it will be combined with that vamp aura we’ve been hearing about.

Sigmoid.7082:

Also I just can’t view siphons as weak if they are going to heal you in your shrouded state. Especially on a reaper.

I’m sure they will be after the rework. But currently, even if healing worked through DS, the Blood Magic line is just too bad to make some small extra healing worth the point investment.

Sigmoid.7082:

Also I am serious. But for instances like wvw or small fights. One extends how long you can stay shrouded and the other makes you go into shroud as long as you have over 10% life force. Combine those with leaching and the ability to generate lf in shroud and stay in it for a while and yes you will have some builds while are almost untillable. Settlers or clerics for example.

One of the problems with Unholy Sanctuary and Unholy Martyr are that they are in Death and Blood Magic, and for the most part those two trait lines are only good for making you lose damage.
So you’re using cleric stats? Great, your Unholy Sanctuary now heals you for ~100 hp/s more… holy moly, I think we’ve already got ourselves an immortal necro right there.
But wait! What if we add Unholy Martyr to the mix? First of all, you score another 300 healing power with Blood Magic so that makes Unholy Sanctuary pretty much the equivalent of invulnerable. But now you also get 5% life force every 3 seconds, only if you draw a condition from an ally which could do way more damage than those 5% but whatever. 5% means you’re effectively losing just 7% through naturaly degeneration, or even 1% with Vital Persistance. Oh, speaking of which, Vital Persistance (an adept trait in a trait line that is actually useful) saves you 6% in the same time without dumping conditions on you in the process.
So yeah, totally unkillable, I guess that’s why those cleric’s Death+Blood Magic necros have been rocking the PvP meta the entire past year :P

Aktium.9506:

flow.6043:

I’ve seen fights that are over a minute long without a single auto attack hit from scepter.

Those fights wouldn’t happen to be against Thieves and Medi Guards where you’ll be focusing more on trying to survive than killing would they?

All kinds of fights really.
On a somewhat related note, I use a hybrid setup with an axe instead of a scepter. So I actually try to avoid the auto attack if possible, and believe me it works. If I didn’t have the auto attack at all it wouldn’t make much of a difference.

If I was serious about PvE, especially dungeons I’d take my engi or start leveling my ele :P
But I do use my necro with that full sinister hybrid setup. It’s actually not bad for stuff like the living story or maps like Dry Top or Silverwastes.

Animosity.5968:

I was figuring single target bleed stacks with scepter and epidemic but is staff better for this?

If you tried to bring down high hp targets (like dungeon bosses) on your own with condition damage then you just can’t beat the scepter. However, if we’re talking aoe or burst stacking then you wouldn’t use the auto attack of the scepter anyway. You’d do it with Mark of Blood, Weakening Shroud, geomancy sigils, Tainted Shackles… and then you can double up those aoe skills again with Epidemic. That’s just a lot faster than auto attacking a single target first.
Also, fun fact: with full Sinister gear and warhorn + Banshee’s Wail you can average more bleeding damage with Barbed Precision than offhand dagger with Enfeebling Blood.

Abimes.9726:

• Spite full Spirit (compared to Close to death it feels weak but it’s a good trait.)

If you’re running a condi build Close to Death is actually the least attractive option, depending on your build you’d choose between Signet Mastery and Spiteful Spirit.
The real problems here are:
1. the icd on Spiteful Spirit of course,
2. and the fact that you currently can’t heal in DS which will occasionally make Signet Mastery go to waste because Signet of the Locust could proc while you’re in Shroud.
But without those issues these traits are actually very solid.

Other than that I agree with your entire list.

Sigmoid.7082:

Bloodthirst with all the traits can result in 200+ HP in leaving per crit.

That’s a best case scenario and even then it’s not really much.

Blood Magic is getting reworked anyway so I’d wait until then instead of commenting on the current traits in that specialization.

Sigmoid.7082:

Unholy martyr and unholy sanctuary can be used for immortal builds.

hehe… oh you were serious? Let me laugh even harder. HAHAHA!

Scepter has better sustained single target condi dmg. But for aoe and burst stacking you don’t need it. Anyway, fun is the most important part here so just go with the weapons you like best.

Animosity.5968:

Is hybrid decent to play at end game In wvw and pve?

Since you’re going with necro you’ve probably settled into not being the strongest PvE class anyway. So in that sense, yes hybrids can be decent in solo or open world content.
I wouldn’t mix different prefixes but just go with full sinister, unless you already have that gear you listed.
In WvW hybrids definitely work, not sure if those weapons are the best setup for a pvp environment though.
Maybe take a look at this.

Aktium.9506:

flow.6043:

you’ll notice that they mostly just use auto attacks to fill the time between the cooldowns of other skills.

It goes without saying that you use skills like Scepter 2 and Dagger 5 when they’re off cooldown aside from more situational skills, but even if you call it filler you’ll be pressing 1 just as much as in a power build.

Perhaps that came accross wrong.
What you’re thinking of here is something like: Grasping Dead + Enfeebling Blood, then auto attack for 10 seconds, Grasping Dead, aa for another 10 sec, rinse/repeat.
However, if you really rotate through all of your weapon skills, utility skills, Death Shroud, weapon swap to staff, back into DS, back to scepter/dagger, and so on… you’ll barely get to auto attack at all. I’ve seen fights that are over a minute long without a single auto attack hit from scepter.
And it’s really not that different for power builds. Life Blast definitely gets a big share in a necro’s skill rotation because a homing and long range attack is a rather reliable source of damage. But how often do power builds really get to use their dagger auto attack? It’s definitely something you want to use, but getting in range isn’t always easy, or downright impossible against some opponents.

EremiteAngel.9765:

flow.6043:

I’m surprised to hear that actually. Perhaps I should arrange a duel of my own here. My build simply doesn’t get countered by mesmers, and I rarely find players who present a serious challenge.

you should go see my post in the mesmer thread.

mesmers are saying they counter necros.

go figure.

I know, but some of this attitude usually derives from them just being the better player.

Holl.3109:

Rylock is Esports lvl good.

Exactly what I’m looking for

Holl.3109:

I fought rylock (who is in top 5 mes in da world) and lost horribly… (both when he was on shatter AND lockdown)

I’m surprised to hear that actually. Perhaps I should arrange a duel of my own here. My build simply doesn’t get countered by mesmers, and I rarely find players who present a serious challenge.

Darwec.3784:

flow.6043:

The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.

In most dungeons, consume provides no utility since there are such few actual condis applied in dungeons that will kill you. Even when there are, you’re usually with an ele or a guardian so those will get cleansed for you. On top of that, dodging mitigates most damage, so the power of your heal straight up doesnt matter. Any of your heals will likely heal you enough to keep you over 90% hp which is all that matters with scholar runes. So…atleast in dungeons…its not that consume conditions is SO GOOD, its just that it really dosnet matter WHAT heal you take. In every other situation, consume is the obvious choice unless you find awkward situational uses for the others.

True, and that actually makes Consume the obvious choice for PvE as well, unless you want to do 3 damage per hour more with Vamp Signet. And the very last thing you need in PvE is more life force.

Cogbyrn.7283:

flow.6043:

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

I would take LF + a weaker heal + Plague Signet (high cooldown, also a stun-break and an instant transfer that can’t be interrupted) instead of Consume Conditions and a different utility (Plague Signet serves me very well in almost any situation) situationally. There’s more than one situation that can arise in this game, and people play more than one game mode where it might not be as effective.

Sorry, but there simply is no game mode or build or niche situation where this version of Your Soul is Mine would be better than Consume Conditions.

In PvE and WvW zergs you’re never short on life force, so the only time you ever have to worry about generating enough life force is in smaller fights: roaming or sPvP.
But in PvP the utility of Consume Conditions is better and the heal is stronger, simple as that. By implication that means that other healing skills with worse utility only have a chance to compete with Consume if their heal is stronger. That is not a matter of builds or situational effectiveness, but logic!

The same applies to every heal btw, not just YSiM.
The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.
So again, if you want to make other healing skills viable you first need to allow all healing to go through DS/RS. And then you need to adjust the hp amount on every heal.

Currently we’re so desperate for every last bit of healing and yet our best healing option takes an average of 1.5 min to completely refill our total hp just once. The ~5-7k hp on Consume Conditions really is rather pathetic considering that most necros run around with a total health pool of somewhere between 20-25k, and that it’s currently the only source of healing besides maybe regen on Mark of Blood.
I suppose this will change with the upcoming rework of Blood Magic and the addition of some other decent healing traits like Spiteful Renewal, but that doesn’t change the fact that Consume Conditions will still immensly overshadow our other heals.

Solution for Your Soul is Mine (to make it a viable alternative to Consume):
- 8k hp base heal
- plus 1k hp for nearby opponents
- plus 4% lf from nearby opponents

Cogbyrn.7283:

And if it gave 20,000 LF off of 5 targets every 20 seconds? You better believe I’d trade regular healing and a full cleanse for it. We can use a utility slot for a full cleanse that also serves as a stun break. We can select weapons with good cleanse. I have options to deal with cleansing.

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, since when does Spectral Wall generate LF at any time besides being cast with the appropriate trait? Maybe that’s a change they made recently or something.

4% whenever an enemy runs into it. Not sure if it ever didn’t generate life force this way…

Aktium.9506:

Enlighten me. Now, I said I didn’t have much experience as Condi Necro due to having spent most of my 2.5k hours on Necro playing variations of the same zerker build I’ve used since launch. But from my experiences as Condi most of your consistent damage comes mainly from camping scepter and spamming 1 and 2 every now and then until you feel that the target is ready to chain fear.

The biggest selling point of scepter really is the auto attack, especially the poison on the third hit. So one might think that condi necros auto attack a lot, but if you pay attention while watching PvP/WvW videos you’ll notice that they mostly just use auto attacks to fill the time between the cooldowns of other skills.

(“pro” tip for Burr: auto attacks → chain fair, is not a good skill rotation)

BurrTheKing.8571:

I honestly wouldn’t mind reading them to at least know what to attempt -_-. Also, I almost never see Necros in duel servers and I’m one of those terrible people that run Skullcracker which wrecks pretty much any Necro build that I’ve seen. I have to screw up pretty hard to lose. If I know they’re power I just save my reflect blocks for DS and if they’re condi I just…use Zerker Stance and start with an early Bull’s Charge + 100b which forces them to either use their generally only stun break which means it’s Skull Crack city from then on or they still eat a ton of dmg from the combo. Because of this I feel bad because the Necros never stay long after that.

I see maybe 1 if I’m lucky and they’re often as new as I am.

First of all, I’d stay away from dueling servers. You get to play once every three hours if you’re lucky. The point in learning by dueling is to create a training environment, repeat the same encounter several times and get feedback every time. If you duel on a 1v1 server you get killed, go back to observer mode and learn absolutely nothing.

In case you’re on EU I’ll gladly have a little training session (you can even try me on your skullcracker ;P).

Anyway, just some general pointers then:
A lot of what makes seasoned necro players stand out is their use of Death Shroud. And by that I mean how they incorporate their Shroud timing as a defensive mechanism into offensive skill rotations.
So like Rym said, there are too many variables to just write up some standard skill combos especially because you should play your necro reactively rather than just work through certain sets of skills. A lot of it actually comes down to knowing what build your opponent is using, even something more specific like the personal preferences and style of a player. So based on that you have to know when to play defensively, when to apply pressure, and most importantly when and how you can attack when your opponent exposes an opening.
I know, this might not help you a lot because it sounds rather cryptic, but the ability to read your opponent and adept is probably one of the most important things when playing necro.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And yes, LF can be generated more reliably, but with a build that is attempting to stay in RS as much as possible, and siphon life back with every attack while in RS, wouldn’t some extra LF play into that build’s hand? I say it works for siphon builds solely because siphoning is going to work through shroud, based on the stream. The LF you are receiving does effectively mitigate more direct damage, though even if you just mitigate an additional 5k damage in the extra 5k LF you get, that’s still an 8 – 9k effective heal? As of right now, that’s the equivalent of a 4 – 5 condition CC.

I wouldn’t use the shout in a 1on1, but it isn’t designed to be used in a 1on1. The shout also has a shorter cooldown, and I believe a shorter cast time? Not sure on the second part.

I can just imagine a scenario where it might be useful. Most of the time I’ll still take CC from the looks of it, but I like that this heal exists.

Two things.
1. Life siphoning will work through Shrouds but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to work any better than when you’re not in DS/RS. Maybe you could squeeze out a little extra with Vampiric Precision and Deathly Perception, but overall there will be no difference.
2. Even if you get the 5 target maximum and generate 20% (22% with Gluttony), that is really not that much. A single Necrotic Grasp can do the same… per second!
Spectral Armor can generate up to 85%, a traited Locust Swarm up to 150%, Spectral Wall has no aoe limit so this one actually has the highest lf regen potential of all our skills.
So, really, 4% per hit on a 20 sec cd skill is not just underwhelming, but it makes this shout rank among the worst lf generators we have. And considering that the best case scenario for the life force part of it potentially puts you in a situation where you’re going to be attacked by 5 people, those 20% lf make about as much of a difference as a drop of water in the ocean, even if you can get a couple of extra siphoning hits this way.

Also, let’s say Your Soul is Mine gives you 20% per hit, so up to 100% life force. Of course this sounds a lot more compelling, but would you really trade this for more regular healing and a full cleanse? I definitely would not. Healing is just so much more valuable than generating life force. So unless the healing part of YSiM by far surpasses Consume Conditions there’s absolutely no reason to even consider taking it instead.

Aktium.9506:

You will be pressing 1 most of the time regardless of what build you use.

That’s not true.

@Burr:
I could write a really long list of stuff that probably some veteran necros don’t even know, but reading about them and trying them in game a very different things.
Also, a lot of it comes down to getting a feeling for skill timings and coodlowns.
So imo the best thing you can do is find a good necro in game and have a little sparring session. In terms of getting experience this would probably be the fastest way to get into the necro groove.

arkealia.2713:

flow.6043:

1. Your Soul is Mine!
The healing skill is way too weak.
The tooltip in the video said it heals for less than 4k hp and only the life force regen scales. Granted, its cd is 20 sec and it could be lowered with the shout trait, but even then 4k is just way too little if you can get a full cleanse and at least 5k with Consume Conditions.

I think it will all about keeping KS up as much as you can, also blood magic will help getting that health back up while in KS.

It looks exactly how they described it: run as fast as you can cos’ once it catches you up, you’re done for.

How is this an argument for Your Soul is Mine? Even if you have some extra sustain with Blood Magic there’s no reason not to have Consume Conditions as well.

Again, Consume Conditions heals for a very poor amount but at least it gives a full cleanse and is immune to poison. If you want anyone to even consider a different healing skill instead then those other skills would have to heal for a lot more than Consume Conditions.
YSiM heals for a lot less while bringing almost no extra utility (extra life force, couldn’t care less..).

Emapudapus.1307:

I am just worried what can condi necro get out of new reaper ds form. And we loose 1 minor trait because of this.

Which one?

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m not convinced that Consume is objectively better. If you get a 3k heal + 5k LF, the 5k LF would effectively be what, 10k direct damage absorbed? Conditions would supplement that so it wouldn’t be quite 13k total potential health, but I don’t think it is as bad as people are thinking. But again, it goes much better with a siphon build. If you aren’t siphoning, it’s much less useful.

First of all, please hand in your necro-card for making the “lf = second hp” argument. :P

Also, with natural degeneration you can never put an exact number on how much damage life force will actually mitigate. But more importantly, life force can be generated a lot more reliably than regular hp. No one would care if this shout didn’t generate any life force at all, at best it’s a nice bonus.

Secondly, how is this skill better with a siphon build? Currently there is no reason for any build to take a different heal than Consume Conditions.

flow.6043:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Core Traits

Life Stealing heals you through death shroud.

So… not that I’m complaining, but why just siphons? And what siphons? Just vampiric traits? Or does this include Signet of the Locust, Sigil of Leeching/Blood, siphon procs from scavenging or vamp runes? How about food with a life steal procs?

Just to add one more, what about a dark field and the whirl finisher of Reaper’s Shroud, are the leeching bolts going to heal you?

Muchacho.2390:

flow.6043:

ure the unblockable duration on “Nothing can Save You!” will not stack for each opponent. The tooltip said 4 seconds, so if it scaled you could get up to 20 seconds.

It scales up to 9 seconds, also 4 seconds base and +1 second per enemy.

Oh ok, that seems reasonable.

spoj.9672:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Just to address a few of these:

1. Power Curses Traits – There’s no need for this. Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper is more than enough for a power build.
2. Projectile Reflect – Maybe on RS2? I don’t think this is definitely necessary. Other classes do just fine without this in particular.
3. Blast Finishers – It’s not happening. It’s super not-necro like. There are other ways to be viable.

1. This pigeon holes power builds. And with decimate defences deathly perception is not worth the pick.
2. Projectile reflect might not be necessary in PvP. But it is a huge part of PvE. Not having any extra active defence is also a problem. Projectile defence is a relatively weak compromise to this issue.
3. Blasts are a combo finisher. They are not class themed. We do not have useful fields like fire fields and thats fair enough. But 1 or 2 extra blasts wouldnt hurt. And would go a long way to improving the class in all gametypes with group interaction.

Also finishers are a hugely core part of the combo system. Just like active defence. I think weve all stressed this enough already. Hopefully it gets looked at and resolved even partially in the core specs.

I agree.

Also, there are some more unresovled issues, especially in Curses:

1. Lingering Curse with +100% condition duration.
This one is just way too much. It’s bad for balancing, it’s bad when it stands in conflict with other duration increases (even within the same specialization, Hemophilia) and it’s bad that the base modifications to scepter skills will be removed.

2. Reaper’s Precision.
Dead Weight. Not a single build will take this trait. Is this one going to be looked at?

3. Is there going to be a merged staff trait?

4. Cds on Weakening Shroud and Spiteful Spirit.
The cooldowns of these traits need to be removed. They are already gated by the cd of Death Shroud and having enough life force to go into DS in the first place.
It makes no sense to give them cooldowns of their own.

5. Mark of Evasion.
As opposed to Weakening Shroud and Spiteful Spirit, here’s a trait that could actually use the real weapon skill that synnergizes with Staff Mastery, but it gets some weird weaker version of Mark of Blood with almost twice its cooldown?
Is this one going to be changed?

6. Axe Mastery.
This just got a straight up nerf with the last preview of it. It’s not like the axe is a particularly strong weapon. So… what’s up with this one? Is the axe getting a buff or did anet just make a mediocre trait for a weak weapon even weaker?

First of all, the greatsword skills and Reaper’s Shroud look amazing, both their animations and their skills.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Traits

No complaints. First impression is very positive here, but I think we’ll only be able to tell which traits might be out of place or overshadowing others too much when we actually get to play them with full builds.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Shouts

I’m sure the unblockable duration on “Nothing can Save You!” will not stack for each opponent. The tooltip said 4 seconds, so if it scaled you could get up to 20 seconds.

Overall these shout skills look solid, the most important part here will be balancing numbers, especially their cooldowns. Two actually caught my eye in a negative way:

1. Your Soul is Mine!
The healing skill is way too weak.
The tooltip in the video said it heals for less than 4k hp and only the life force regen scales. Granted, its cd is 20 sec and it could be lowered with the shout trait, but even then 4k is just way too little if you can get a full cleanse and at least 5k with Consume Conditions.
On a side note, I think all of the necros main healing skills heal for too little considering how big their health pool is. But just the direct comparison of Consume Conditions with other healing skills means this: a full condition cleanse that scales with conditions and is also immune to poison is by far the best utility we can get in our #6 slot, so the only incentive to take a different skill would be if it that other skill actually healed for more.
So what would the shout need to make me personally consider it over Consume Conditions: at least 8k hp on 20 sec cd plus some extra healing for each opponent hit in the same way the skill generates life force for each opponent.

2. “You are all Weaklings!”

4 stacks of short duration might.
I don’t quite recall the cd on the skill, but the duration of the might stacks seemed too low especially if you want to couple it with some of the slow casts of the greatsword or Reaper. So unless you’ve precast some wells, marks or whatever this skill might synnergize with maybe 2-3 hits before the stacks expire again.
And considering how well some of the other traits now let you stack might, I could see more value in fewer stacks but a higher duration.
Again, it’s hard to tell without actually seeing it used in a proper build.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Greatsword

Reaper Shroud

No complaints, sexy as hell and the dark/ice field + whirl finisher combos made me drool. And ooow eaaam geeee…. pulsing stability?! wat!! (can you stomp/rez or use other skills while that skill is active?)
The only question I have now is: why would anyone still use Death Shroud? Reaper’s looks SO much better in every way.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Core Traits

Life Stealing heals you through death shroud.

So… not that I’m complaining, but why just siphons? And what siphons? Just vampiric traits? Or does this include Signet of the Locust, Sigil of Leeching/Blood, siphon procs from scavenging or vamp runes? How about food with a life steal procs?

Seriously though, it’s great that siphons will work through Shroud(s).
But the current conflict still remains with other healing traits like Parasitic Contagion, Spiteful Renewal or traits that give regeneration, also every healing skill except Consume Condition (and the new shout) can be partially blocked by DS, not to mention that it’s simply unfair that necros can’t receive ally healing sometimes.
If any of these things seem too strong if they worked through DS (which they wouldn’t) then just balance those numbers instead of sticking to something that clearly is a design flaw.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Decimate Defenses is +50% crit chance if you get 25 stacks of vuln. Mixed with the Soul Reaping trait, that’s +100% crit chance without any precision! Cele necro is real?

More like Carrion or Soldier.
Without more healing that scales well with healing power there’s not point in taking celestial, and with up to 100% crit chance you don’t even need the precision on it.

I didn’t have high expectations before the stream, but it all looked so solid.
The animations are super sexy. All the skills seem to synnergize really well with our traits (not just the new ones), we get 2 dark and 1 ice field, 2 whirl finishers, and pulsing (!!) stability in DS! And a lot of skills and traits get scaling effects.

Really, the only question I have now is: who is not going to use the Reaper? It just seems so much better than the regular Death Shroud, even for condition builds.

The only complaint I have would be the shout heal. It healed for less than 4k hp and only the life force gain scaled. The cooldown was 20 sec and it could be lowered with the shout trait, but 4k hp is still way too little to even consider it instead of Consume Conditions.

I know it’s supposed to be a joke but I’m afraid this is a rather accurate portrayal of how it’s actually going to be…

Nice comic though, well done.

MethaneGas.8357:

For example, if they provide Necros with better lifeforce management, healing in DS might not be neccessary.
…
If they enable healing in DS, maybe better lifeforce management may not be necessary.

I’m not sure what you mean by lf management (perhaps just better regen for condi builds?) but life force and healing through DS are two completely unrelated issues.

First of all, our healing is the worst of all classes. It is the worst if you look at the numbers alone, and it gets even worse if you see it in context of how big our health pool is, not to mention that we can’t mitigate damage with blocks/invuln/evades at all.

Our bad healing is the reason we can’t do attrition fights. ~5-7k healing every 25 seconds, that’s all we currently get. That means, if you take more than 7k damage in 25 seconds – which is pretty much unavoidable – you can’t heal up to full hp anymore and the only way to truly recover is to get out of combat.

Now, some would argue that life force is a resource similar to hp and its regen has to be factored in when you balance our healing. Of course that makes a little bit of sense, but mostly it is wrong. The cooldown of Death Shroud and the fact that we have almost no other ways of avoiding damage exposes our regular hp, no amount of life force regen can change that.

And then there’s of course the fact that the inability to heal in DS stands in direct conflict with a lot of our traits and every healing skill except Consume Conditions. There’s no excuse here, it’s a design flaw.

Also, not being able to get healed by allies is just unfair and a discrimination against necros.
Some people immediately think of outlier scenarios where a flock of guardians and elementalists jump to the rescue and shower the necro with healing skills. But seriously, how is this different from other classes when they use their defensive mechanics? In fact, they might even have the means to avoid CC while getting team heals, which we don’t have in DS at all.
The bottom line is, whenever someone thinks of a reason why ally healing through DS shouldn’t be possible, the counter argument to that is: other classes would do even better.

So, to sum it up, healing through DS needs to happen, period.
Mostly because it’s completely unreasonable that defensive traits should be canceled by our core defensive mechanic, but it would also be a first step towards improving our healing in general. Also, equality for all classes in regards to ally heals.
If you feel that lf regen could be better on weapon sets like scepter/dagger, fine, improve that too. But it really is unrelated to our poor healing situation.

Softspoken.2410:

Was that particular change to Enfeebling Shroud also around the time that they changed how Weakness worked? (June 2013)

See above. It was about 2 weeks before a balance patch that went live in early december 2013.

Here’s what they said back then (Nov 2013)

JonPeters.5630:

We are going back and forth between 2s and 3s of weakness. 3s with full condi duration and with Near to Death trait is almost 65% uptime, which sortof scared us on an adept trait that gives AoE weakness. 2s works out to 42% uptime when maxed out which felt a little better. Still open to discussion so thanks,

Jon

So they actually calculated this with +50% condition duration for sPvP, which back then could be done by mixing rune sets and 6 points in Spite.

In case you’re wondering, we actually did point out that completely giving up Death Shroud for some aoe weakness makes no sense, but still they gave us 2 seconds.

A small victory nevertheless considering the full 25 sec icd would’ve been much worse.

Sigmoid.7082:

Don’t all on entering death shroud abilities now trigger the actual skill and thus have a cool down now? If this is true they should remove the cool down on it and allow us to enter it as log as we have 10% life force.

You’ve identified a very serious problem here. But the right approach to solving it isn’t to change Death Shroud but to remove the icds of the traits.

Originally Weakening Shroud was the full Enfeebling Blood skill but it had a 15 second cd.
1.5 years ago Anet did some restucturing of how well necros should be able to regen life force while also trying to reduce condition pressure of the class (Dhuumfire builds were still a thing back then). They also decided that the weakness duration on Weakening Shroud was too strong and therefore the cd should be raised to match the weapon skill. However, the cummunity argued (devs were actually posting here on the necro forum) that the full cd of Enfeebling Blood would be counterproductive in two ways: 1. when it’s off cd the condi pressure is exactly the same, 2. when we need weakness to defend ourselves in DS we wouldn’t always get it. As it turned out they acutally listened to the players and made the skill weaker instead of adding a coodlown.
Skip forward until today and we’re in the exact same situation, not just with Weakening Shroud but also with Spiteful Spirit. And this was one of the things in the preview that had me face-palming the hardest. A trait that is gated by two different overlapping cooldowns and the regeneration of life force, because “this way there’s synnergy with the traited weapon cd reduction”. I… can’t… even…! -_-
And as a cherry on top, Mark of Evasion still didn’t get the original Mark of Blood but remains with that weaker version with almost twice the cooldown.
Long story short, this is a perfect example to show that non of the devs main a necro.

Falcon.8713:

I have played 5k hours on necro
..
This forum is overly depressing, complain when there’s no need to

I think the bigger shocker here is that someone with 5k hours experience doesn’t see how most complaints on this forum are very reasonable.

Moonlit.6421:

… it was almost laughable to see how many negative posts there were on a thread trying to get people into a better attitude lol. X3

Except the opening post wasn’t about lifting spirits but pointing out that we’re drama queens and maybe just need to l2p.

leman.7682:

I can guarantee that with both utilities and healing inside DS, there is a possibility of making an unkillable DS necro that enters DS at 10k hp, then gets cleave-healed by shoutbows/eles/guards while generating excessive amounts of life force (Locust Swarm, Spectrals) that leads the necro to healing himself back up immediatelly after leaving the DS.

I’m inclined to agree, but it really isn’t that different from activating Swarm and Spec Armor before going into DS and then getting healed by allies (if it was possible).
Also, what you described is really more of an outlier scenario than your regular team fight. If your team is really that coordinated I’d say that necro deserves to stay alive for a little longer.
Besides, all other classes can use their defensive mechanics while using their skills and getting healed by themselves and allies. So usually the counter argument to one of those best-case-scenario-immortal-necro-thingys is: other classes would do even better.

djooceboxblast.9876:

° Allow Using Utilities while in Death Shroud.

I like this idea – the reason why is I think it would bring som needed utility and again sustain. We would be able to use life force generating utilities such as spectral armour, spectral walk, well of corruption. Maybe some of them would need a tone down if activated in death shroud. Another totally different idea could be to make a new set of utilities that can only be used while in ds? Just throwing it out there!

I actually had the same thought once, a new set of skills like spectrals or curruptions that are locked outside but are available inside DS. And I’d definitely be in favor of adding skills rather than just unlocking the ones we already have, in that sense I’d actually prefer the addition of entirely new Shroud skills.

Or here’s another idea, how about an adaptation of the engi’s toolbelt, every utility skill could get a counterpart in Death Shroud?
Obviously they would share one cooldown so necros don’t get twice as many utility skills, but it would be a way to solve issues like signet passives not working in DS and to expand DS with new skills at the same time.

djooceboxblast.9876:

° Use F1 while stomping / Res doesn’t interrupt stomps

This just needs to be done! No reason to why it shouldn’t. Other professions gets to use their utilities/profession mechanics while stomping/resurrection and i dont see why the necromancer should not.

Strangely enough, we had in issue once that would cancel rezzing or stomping if our life force was emptied by either damage or natural degeneration. That was fixed because apparently Anet considered this to be a bug. However, by implication that means that pressing F1 for going into or leaving Death Shroud is actually supposed to cancel the interaction! And that makes this the only case in the entire game of an instant cast ability that behaves this way.
First of all, why? Seriously, can anyone come up with any reasonable explanation for this?
Weapon swap will also cancel interactions (although I’m not sure what the point here is either), but DS is not a weapon swap, it doesn’t trigger swap sigils and Life Blast actually interacts with the weapon strength of the weapon you’re holding.
We also know that DS being a transformation can’t be the reason because you can Plague-stomp or be turned into a moa during rezzes or stomps without canceling the interaction.
So really, Death Shroud fell into some weird exception of the exception crack again, which isn’t just unfair but (again) a testament to how Anet discriminates against the necromancer.

Sagat.3285:

Jon contradicted his own words if it’s so strong why is it not used much in high tiers,he recognized that the meta is anti condition yet boon hate is still weak to boon generation and they are about to add kitten resistance, if it’s such a strong and skillful mechanic where is the high reward??

That other thread is over two years old. Nothing he said applies today (btw his post says “condition heavy meta”).
Anyway, apparently non of us have mastered DS yet despite all of the UI upgrades, improved traits, doubled lf pool and the addition of Tainted Shackles. L2P, guys!!

What’s your point? Ignorance is bliss? Or are you trying to make it sound like the quality of a class is solely determined by the player’s attitude?
The shortcomings that are being pointed out on the forum are objectively argued, not knowing about them doesn’t make those issues any less real.
In PvE necros simply can’t bring the same team support as other classes while also doing the least amount of damage. This isn’t up for debate, it’s been tested and methematically proven. As for PvP, the reason necros aren’t part of the meta is because their poor defense makes them a liability.

MAN.9046:

“I don’t have mobility to get away when i’m ganked 2v1” as if any other class would have…

Yes actually, other classes can escape fights more easily, that is a fact.
And another fact is that the core defense of the class negates not just any healing but an entire trait line that is specifically dedicated to heals and siphons. That is a huge design flaw, and it’s been in the game for almost 3 years!

So tell me, why wouldn’t we complain about things like these? And where else should we do it if not on the official gw2 forum?

Cogbyrn.7283:

The most concerning thing I heard in the Necro portion of the Specialization Ready Up was regarding Deathly Invigoration (I believe it was). They mentioned that the AoE heal will proc on going into DS instead of leaving it. They then specifically said that it meant the Necro wouldn’t receive the heal, but others would.

It gave a very close-minded impression, and it legitimately made my heart sink. It either means they don’t seem willing to consider the idea of allowing healing while in DS, or technologically they still won’t be able to support it.

Or I suppose, maybe they’re leaving that information for a big unveiling, but I’m doubting that.

I had the same impression when I saw the stream.
But I think the reason for their attitude in regards to healing through DS is simply that non of them play necro and therefore non of them have really thought it through and realized how absurd it is that the core defense of necros doesn’t work with the only form of sustain available to them.
One might assume that the one class without mobility, blocks, evades, invulnerability or stealth should have the best healing in game to compensate, especially when they have to maintain one of the biggest healt pools. But no, necros get 5k healing every 25 seconds to sustain 18k+ hp. Of course there’s the occasional regeneration or other minor things, but really, the only way to truly recover from a lot of damage is to get out of combat.
I guess it’s a start that we get some healing traits outside of Blood Magic like Spiteful Renewal, the improved Signet Mastery or a slightly buffed Parasitic Contagion, but still half of the time those traits simply won’t work and it is mind blowing to me that such an obvious design flaw has been allowed to stay in the game for almost 3 years.

Pulsicle.3192:

Ok, so you don’t know me, that makes me a worthless contributor and that makes me sad.

As long as your post is well argued it has value to the discussion.

Pulsicle.3192:

I too am not fond of the Terror trait where it is. It’s a direct damage trait in the Curses line.

The damage of Terror scales with condition damage.

Pulsicle.3192:

Furious Demise is weird in the curses line as I see it as a condition focus line

But it currently gives precision as well and it provides synnergy with Barbed Precision. Also, how is Furious Demise different than the proposed change to Target the Weak?

spoj.9672:

Deaths Embrace – lower the ICD.

What icd do you have in mind here? Just a little lower or enough to maintain 10 stacks with a some extra condi duration..?

spoj.9672:

Siphoned Power – in addition to whats already been said. Buff the might duration slightly.

Same question as above, how high do you want this trait to stack by itself?
And how would this be influenced if you had to account for runes, sigils, food buffs or if there was a Curses grandmaster trait that provided some might as well?

spoj.9672:

Make Life Blast a projectile finisher (baseline).

So we can get some extra healing with Life Steal combos through wells! …oh wait :/

On a side note, I think Reaper’s Touch could be made a 100% projectile finisher.

zapv.8051:

The only problem with that is that master of terror wouldn’t do anything if you weren’t in curses.

It would still extend your fear durations and you’d get the merged Fear of Death trait.
Also, I don’t really see the synnergy with a different trait as a problem. Sometimes some traits just aren’t an option depending on your build, like you wouldn’t pick minion traits if you aren’t using minions.
Generally I don’t see any problem with Terror keeping its full strength as a minor trait, it’s really not that much in the first place, but the point of a partial shift to MoT would be to make it a viable alternative to Spectral Mastery and Vital Persistance if you have Curses, if you don’t have Curses then you simply won’t choose between 3 traits but just 2 traits.

Malchior.1928:

3. Adjust as needed.

SOLVES LITERALLY EVERYTHING. TRY ME.

I think “adjust as needed” is the key part here ;P
And tbh I’d rather have new skills in DS instead of having access to our regular ones.

Abimes.9726:

I also have a lot of necros telling me having the full heal through DS could possibly be to strong.

It really wouldn’t. On the contrary, in addition to healing through DS necros need several buffs to survivability to get even close to the sustain of other classes.

Abimes.9726:

Yeah I can see it move to the Gm minor slot and put the Parasitic back to it’s place , with the changes i gave to lingering curse.
I’m not sure i understood the thing about terror above. globaly you’d see terror merge with terror master take it’s place in SR or behing moved into GM minor curse ?

Isn’t it better to put terror into master over the reaper’s precision and put Reaper P into Gm with the 2% condi/precision thing ? (I think Terror probably is to strong to be a minor trait.)

Alright, look at it this way, the biggest problems in Curses are

1. that you have no grandmaster power trait
2. that 2/3 condi traits basically fill the same roll: more damage. LC + Terror, and one of them vastly overshadows the other.
3. Reaper’s Precision is just a waste of space.
4. Target the Weak + increased base stats is only as good as the current 300 precision you get from 6 pts in Curses if your target has 5 conditions on them.

Now, how would you improve this situation?
First of all, Terror is not a strong trait, it really isn’t. Neither is a 2% crit chance buff for every condition on your target. Also, if you look at some of the merged or baseline-to-be traits of other classes there is absolutely no reason why Terror shouldn’t become a merged minor trait or even baseline to the necro class entirely.

Then you have to think about what traits certain builds should be able to combine. You want power builds to have Banshee’s Wail in master and another real power trait in grandmaster, you want condi builds to pick Path of Corruption and either a defensive (PC) or offensive (LC) trait in gm. So Terror is really the least problematic one to move without destroying any builds while also retaining a somewhat neutral option (if combined with Target the Weak) for both condi and power builds in the minor trait slot.

Now, the suggestion I made about Master of Terror getting the extra damage part:
Master of Terror in Soul Reaping is never going to be picked if the specializations stay as they are. First of all, Terror would never be picked over the blatantly overpowered Lingering Curse, and therefore neither would MoT. But let’s just for a moment assume that someone doesn’t wan’t LC and picked Terror instead. Still, they would never go for MoT if they could get Vital Persistance or Spectral Mastery instead.
That is why I made the suggestion that Terror should be split in two parts:
1. fear deals damage,
2. Terror deals additional damage if the target is afflicted with another condition.
Part 1 would merge with the 2% crit chance per condition into the Curses gm minor trait “Terror”. And Part 2 would be merged with Master of Terror in Soul Reaping.
This way you would get a weaker version of Terror in Curses “for free” and still get to have a more meaningful choice for the grandmaster slot between offense and defense: Lingering Curse vs Parasitic Contagion.
Meanwhile Master of Terror in Soul Reaping would be a viable alternative to the other traits in that tier because it can buff the damage of Terror and increase fear duration by a meaningful amount if Lingering Curse was nerfed to not instantly max out everything.

Abimes.9726:

It could become total , but i think that should be given step by step

Full healing through DS should’ve been possible since the game was released.
Any limitation like “only vamp traits” or “only regeneration” does not only make no sense, but a step by step approach will just take another 2.5 years to get us where we should’ve been a long time ago.

Abimes.9726:

I don’t Think the Terror Trait fits into the SR lines to be honest , Terror Build rely on the decreased CD of Doom from path of midnight and if you put terror into SR it will just benefit to much from lingering curse (especialy if it remains 100% with 30% it could be fine (like with the actual dhumfire build.)).

I never said Terror should be in Soul Reaping.
And in case this wasn’t clear, by “Curses grandmaster disaster” I meant the absence of a power trait and the fact that Lingering Curse has this absolutely rediculous duration buff on it.
So yeah, Terror should be moved to gm minor in Curses and this would of course not be an issue because Lingering Curse would lose the +100% duration buff (30% would be reasonable if the base modification remains) that would only end up breaking the balance of every other condition trait and skill.

zapv.8051:

If you can’t see that the average strength of GM traits across all classes, not just the most broken class in the game, is higher than the average of Masters and adepts you aren’t trying.

Hold on, I’m trying…
… still trying
..yeah, nope. Sorry, it’s not happening for me.

zapv.8051:

Again, I’m not saying it isn’t arbitrary, but you have to realize there is a very linearly increasing power difference between the tiers still. The last trait you pick has a much bigger possible effectiveness on a fight than the other traits.

That’s just not true. Really, have you looked at our traits? Have you looked at other classes’ traits?
I know that there originally was an intention of making grandmaster traits more exclusive as you can only reach them with a higher point invesment, but in reality they mostly ended up being weaker than lower tier traits. Actually there are a lot of builds who invest 6 points in a line just to get an additional master or adept trait in the gm slot.

zapv.8051:

I’m not gonna argue if this distinction should exist, simply that it does, and the devs, at least so far in the traitline previews, clearly want this difference to be in place.

Wrong again.
The devs might have had the intention of making higher tiers stronger a long time ago, but that doesn’t change the fact that some gm traits are bad (not just on necro) and that all of this doesn’t matter anymore when you get specializations.
The only valid question is: how can we group traits together in order to make certain builds possible. So the way traits are arranged in specializations is in part just a remnant of how our trait lines currently look like and how they want to preserve builds that exist within this framework (with moderate success, I might add).

Also, may I at this point remind you that you’ve started this argument by saying LC should be master tier because it is weaker in the version you proposed.
That right there is just not a valid argument anymore when you have specializations.

zapv.8051:

I’m sorry, but your just blatantly wrong. On average GMs are way stronger than Masters which are on average stronger than adepts.

Let’s see… Parasitic Contagion, Withering Precision, Necromantic Corruption, Unholy Sanctuary, Vampiric Rituals, Unholy Martyr, Renewing Blast. Those 8 traits are more than half of all grandmaster traits, and yes, they are all completely useless.
Now, are you really telling me that you can’t pick at least that many master or adept traits that are stronger than them?

zapv.8051:

If you don’t want to accept that it is fine, but it isn’t worth arguing with someone who isn’t accepting what is obvious.

It is worth arguing when people are discussing traits based on the assumption that there is supposed to be some kind of hierarchy. Even if there was one now, with specializations you always get the entire line and that makes thinking in tiers pointless.

Darwec.3784:

The concept of adept, master, and grandmaster traits seems overly arbitrary now with the changes. IT made sense before when you had the option to put adept traits in the grand master slot. Before there was some clear hierarchy. That hierarchy has been abolished since you are forced to take the full line, and there is no overlap between tiers. At this point it is simply tier 1 tier 2 and tier 3.

He get’s it.

zapv.8051:

GMs are stronger than other tiers though, so I’m not assuming that.

Except they aren’t.
Some gm traits are just total garbage, while some adept or even minor traits heavily outshine the ones in higher tiers.

zapv.8051:

The tier system still exists, adept, master and grandmaster

Yes, but with the specialization system you might as well call them A, B and C. It’s just a name and no longer an indicator of their power.

zapv.8051:

They also stated GMs are supposed to be build defining, and change the way you play, which is why LC shouldn’t be GM, it isn’t build defining or epic, it just makes stuff better.

Just proves that the devs should’ve never use that term. It only served to confuse people into putting an artificial value on the gm tier or analyse how creative a trait’s contribution to a build is.

Again, stop thinking in tiers. What you need to worry about instead is if Lingering Curse – Terror – Parasitic Contagion is a matchup that makes sense, or if you moved LC down to master, any other constellation of traits that might result in that shift.

Abimes.9726:

Make regeneration and Siphoned heals (blood magic/signets) pass trought DS.

Fixed that for you.

Abimes.9726:

Make Soul marks Baseline.

Instead of a flat 3% on trigger, I’d actually prefer marks to generate a smaller hit-based amount (0.5-1%) to give it a scaling effect, as a baseline feature of course.

Abimes.9726:

Curses

° Remove Reaper’s precision

It could stay if it was buffed.
One suggestion in other threads was a merger with Withering Precision: 33% chance to inflict 1 sec of weakness and generate 1% life force on critical hits, no icd.

Abimes.9726:

Merge terror master into Terror GM curse.

I’ve suggested this in other threads already, but my prefered change here would be:
1. Terror becomes the new gm minor in Curses combined with 2% crit chance for condis.
2. The “additional damage for other conditions” part of Terror is moved to Master of Terror in Soul Reaping.

For two reasons:
- Curses needs a proper power trait in the gm tier and Terror is the logical choice to make way for it.
- Master of Terror is rather overshadowed by Spectral Mastery and Vital Persistence, so by moving the bonus damage part you create some insentive to pick it over their more defensive counterparts.

Abimes.9726:

Move Parasitic contagion from curse to blood magic GM.

I disagree, Parasitic Contagion makes more sense in Curses.
Also, moving every healing trait to Blood Magic is bad. If you do that and Blood Magic was viable (which it isn’t) then you’d just limit build diversity because BM becomes a mandatory pick. Of course BM is garbage because all of its traits don’t work in DS, so all you achieve by moving healing traits there is pushing them out of reach for viable builds that could actually use some sutain options in specializations that work.

Abimes.9726:

Death Magic

Remove Deathly strenght.
Put death Nova into Master trait.
2 Grand Master trait TBD.

I agree with moving one of the minion traits down one tier to make both available for MMs, it’s not like they couldn’t use some buffs.
But why not make Deadly Strength take its spot instead and maybe give it a little buff?
And of course, Unholy Sanctuary should stay in Death Magic for the same reason Parasitic Contagion shouldn’t be moved to Blood Magic.

Abimes.9726:

Spitefull Spirits : Cripple nearby foes and remove a boon. Gain retaliation for each foe you strike. Make it blast finisher and no ICD.

I’m fine with the regular Unholy Feast, but just like Weakening Shroud it shouldn’t have a cooldown because it would already be double gated by the cd of DS and life force regeneration.

Really, the icds on those two traits are my biggest issue after the split staff traits and the Curses grandmaster disaster.

Abimes.9726:

Minor Siphoned Power: Decrease the internal cooldown to 1 seconds and reduce the might gain to 1 Might.

I’d rather have it share the might with allies than make it better for necros themselves, same for Beyond the Veil.

Abimes.9726:

Blood Magic

° Merge Transfusion and Deathly invigoration make it Master tier.
° Merge Bloothirtst intoVampiric precision make it Adept tier.

I agree that those changes should happen, but before you even try to balance Blood Magic traits you need to allow healing through DS, until then the entire BM specialization is completely pointless.