Guild Wars 2

My opinion:

The changes to Plague Sending, Chilling Nova, Infusing Terror and Chilling Victory are reasonable.

Cooldown increase on “Rise!”… why?

Tainted Shackles: not the buff to Death Shroud I expected, and far from the buffs it really needs, but it’s better than nothing and it shows that anet hasn’t completely forgotten about core skills. So yay, I guess.

Plaguelands: Sounds cool.

Epidemic: I wasn’t aware anyone was even using this skill in PvP or WvW anymore.
As for the heavy toll on their servers, it seems like the skill is still the same except there are now some aditional projectiles bouncing around, right?

Dagger and Axe buffs look nice.
But I’m bummed out about Unholy Feast no longer applying retaliation.
Fyi Spiteful Spirit’s tooltip says there’s still retal, but they removed it here as well.

Necromancer
Our biggest focus in this iteration for necromancers was that of Epidemic, in that its impact is too instant in most PvP scenarios, as well as its heavy toll on our servers. Secondarily, we’ve long felt that the Plague elite was lackluster and was in need of a rework. In addition to a variety of weapon-based quality-of-life changes, we’re excited to see how the skill changes fare over time.

• Plague Sending: The cooldown of this trait has been increased from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.
• “Rise!”: The cooldown of this skill has been increased from 40 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only.
• Tainted Shackles: This skill will now apply 5 seconds of Revealed to enemies the first time it successfully hits.
• Infusing Terror (Reaper Shroud): This skill no longer pulses stability but instead grants 3 stacks for 6 seconds upon activating it. The active form of this skill now reduces incoming physical and condition damage by 20% for its duration.
• Chilling Victory: The cooldown of this trait has been increased from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only.
• Plague (Elite): This skill has been reworked and has been renamed to Plaguelands.
• Plaguelands: This skill creates a 240-radius corrupted area at the necromancer’s initial location for 10 seconds. After 1 second, it pulses damage and conditions in that area for 9 seconds. Each pulse applies a new condition, and each pulse applies all conditions from every pulse before it. Conditions applied (in order) are: bleeding, poison, torment, vulnerability, cripple, weakness, blind, chill, and burning. Recharge is set to 120 seconds.
• Epidemic: This ability now fires slow-arcing projectiles from its initial target to up to 5 targets in range. Foes hit by the projectiles gain all conditions from the original Epidemic target. Projectile strikes are unblockable but cannot critically hit. Increased radius to 900.
• Rending Claws: Applies twice as much vulnerability while your target is below 50% health.
• Ghastly Claws: This skill now deals 1% more damage per stack of vulnerability on the target.
• Unholy Feast: This skill no longer applies retaliation. It now invokes a secondary AoE strike against foes below 25% health. Fixed skill-fact bugs that showed range instead of radius and did not display the correct number of boons converted.
• Spiteful Spirit: Updated this trait to clarify that it is no longer casting Unholy Feast.
• Life Siphon: Gains 20% increased healing if cast while you are bleeding. Deals 20% more damage to bleeding foes.
• Dark Pact: Increased damage by 20%. Now inflicts 2 stacks of bleeding on you for 10 seconds.

Lahmia.2193:

Chilling Darkness icd removal … once again we’d get another skill to add to the growing pile of condi skills. I’m looking for a power buff instead.

Nobody said you could only have one or the other.
Also, removing the icd would only be a minor buff to PvE builds for when blindness is applied more frequently than 3 seconds. In PvP (and WvW) Plague Sending is always the better alternative. And 3 stacks bleeding on Deathly Chill in WvW makes no sense already, so that should be nerfed anyway.

First of all, that’s not spam, that’s just a list of skills that apply blindness.
Secondly, including Well of Darkness makes no sense when your original argument was “…given how much blind we can already spam”, as in without WoD.
And finally, non of those skills in any combination would justify an icd on Chilling Darkness.

PS: you forgot darkfield combos, corrupted fury, transfers and that useless minion.
Still no spam.

Lahmia.2193:

Well of Darkness would be fine, if Chilling Darkness had its ICD removed. But given how much blind we can already spam, this would inevitably lead to another big nerf. That’s why I think a different approach would be better.

Necros can spam blindness? Elaborate please.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Idea 1. Though, it would be nice if all the utility Wells did damage. So… Well of Suffering damage on Well of Power, too?

It doesn’t have to be Well of Suffering damage. A tiny bit so you at least proc Vampiric would be a reasonable addition already.

Rapier.3675:

U can trait blindness. so well of darkness and other blindness skills will do blindness > 3x vulnerability > chill > bleed. ^^
so pick up bitter chill , chilling darkness and deathly chill.

That would only be a decent combo if Chilling Darkness had no icd.
Which btw it shouldn’t have. That cooldown makes no sense for PvE and in PvP Plague Sending is the stronger choice either way.

Lily.1935:

So how should SoU be fixed? Well, the simple only solution would be to…

…delete that skill and replace it with something entirely different.

Zero Solstice.9754:

flow.6043:

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

You’re operating under the assumption that we’re talking strictly about the PvP game mode. If you want to talk PvP then yes: sustainable stats were gutted across the board, especially for condition-based specs. This is entirely not the case in WvW.

I actually assumed you were talking about PvP because that’s the only place your vitality/thoughness argument makes sense.
You can mix stats in WvW however you want. And neither condi nor power builds get any advantages or disadvantages by gearing with equal amounts of defensive stats.

Zero Solstice.9754:

If you want to make the case of Parasitic Contagion in PvP, then I think it’s absolutely not worth your time, but the case for WvW is much more open-ended.

Like I said, imo Weakening Shroud is the stronger trait regardless of game mode.

I’ve only ever seen Methane make good use of Parasitic Contagion, but in that case it only worked because he kites well with traited Spectral Wall/Walk and Flesh Wurm. In any other build where you’re under pressure for longer amounts of time, the healing of PC is just not strong enough to justify it over even just a few glancing hits.

Zero Solstice.9754:

I would definitely argue the CC and utility case. A Power Reaper has to sacrifice strength in order to offer any reasonable amount of utility, whereas a Condi Reaper can just slot it right in. Plus considering most Necromancer CC is of the soft variety, Condi specs with Expertise and Duration foods have strictly higher CC uptime than Power specs do. A Power Reaper can’t just run Poison Cloud or Epidemic for free, whereas a Condi Reaper can just stick it on their bar and even make it better through natural trait changes.

Your comparison just doesn’t make sense to me.
It would probably help if you post the two builds you’re talking about.

Also, how is taking Corrosive Poison Cloud and Epidemic “for free” when you run a condi build? Are you saying there’s no opportunity cost in taking those? Or that power builds can’t make use of CPC’s projectile block? Or that power builds can’t run equally or more effective alternative utility skills?
Soft CC? Chill, cripple, weakness uptime are neglibably higher on builds with duration gear and food.
Utility? Which one? Honestly, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Do you mean weapon skills, traits or just utility skills?

naturesoul.3578:

you would think parasitic contagion would heal through shroud as major grandmaster trait, and yet Vampiric trait will heal through a shroud and its a minor master trait.

I’m having a hard time estimating for how long you’ve been playing the game.
Your complaint in general would suggest that you’re new, or new to necro anyway.
But then the grandmaster vs master minor comparison is some pre-2015 mentality.
Since they implemented the specialization system, trait tiers have become completely irrelevant except for when you want to prevent a ceratin trait combination by placing them in the same tier.

Rym.1469:

I wouldn’t mind it dropping a tier or two, maybe even becoming a minor, but changing the 10% conversion rate into something more reliable and predictable. After that we could start thinking about making it heal through Shroud.

Again, tiers are irrelevant.

Also, this is the wrong approach. First make everything heal through Shroud, then balance if necessary.

Murdock.6547:

Honestly? I don’t think condi necro should be allowed para con to heal through shroud.
…
POINT IS! Necro SHOULDN’T have this. But considering the way things are? They might need it plus many more things to bring them on par with other classes.

Healing through Shroud is primarily a matter of proper class design.
The main defensive mechanic cancels out a ton of defensive traits, skills and other classes’ support in team fights. It’s actually mindblowing how this is still a thing almost 5 years after release.

POINT IS! EVERYTHING should heal through Shroud.
This should be the priority.
And before some of you jump in and say how “unkillable and op…” that would be: no, it wouldn’t. You’re overestimating how much healing you’re actually missing out on. And you’re underestimating how much necros need this extra bit of support and sustain.

Also, in case of Parasitic Contagion, Weakening Shroud would still be the stronger choice for PvP. If anything they’d have to increase the healing % in addition to making it work all the time.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Crinn.7864:

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

I can agree that being able to run both “Your Soul is Mine!” and Blighter’s Boon at the same time gives Power Reaper a ton of sustain, but it’s also a build with generally less utility, less Toughness, less Vitality, and less CC.

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

Charr

Westwater.1095:

In one of WP’s latest videos he made a point of how Reaper, despite being designed entirely to be about power damage through and through, condition necromancers still take this spec for a single trait: Deathly Chill

That statement is false on several levels.
Reaper can be played both ways by design, and Deathly Chills just happens to be a good PvE trait for condi builds but it’s not the only reason pick Reaper.

foste.3098:

And in pvp the power builds we encounter have very little to do with what reaper offers, they all use axe warhorn and staff, sometimes they forgo all shout skills (sometimes ppl take plague when they know they will get focused all the time).

Invalid argument.

Only because the Reaper spec unlocks greatsword and shouts, doesn’t mean that a full shout gs build should be the single most viable way to play Reaper in PvP.

The only way your complaint is even remotely legitimate would be if you’re talking about WvW. So I’m guessing that’s what you’re refering to by saying they’re “out of control”?

Remember how the patch notes back then said: Increased bleed stacks to 3 for 5 seconds in PvE only.

We don’t know if having 3 stacks in WvW was actually intended, but basically in your opinion they overbuffed the bleed stack amount, right?
Now, why would you suggest an icd to counteract this? Could you really not think of a more obvious solution? Not to mention that icds are lame and would defeat the purpose of this trait completely.

Crinn.7864:

flow.6043:

First of all, when you argue that toughness mitigates direct damage, you also have to accept that extra hp “mitigates” armor-ignoring damage like conditions or leeching.

That is a criminal misuse of the word “mitigation”

Which is why i put it in quotes. I was just sticking to the analogy.

Crinn.7864:

EHP is a terrible measurement because it does not account for healing. Mitigation becomes more valuable with healing access, up to the critical point where the incoming damage is reduced below the incoming healing value at which point you can no longer die.

…

You’re just repeating what I already said. And apparently you didn’t get the point.

EHP for those 2 amulets without healing is the same.
Once you heal the ehp with toughness takes the lead.
Unless you take armor ignoring damage, of course.
Yes, direct damage is more common, but that doesn’t change that fact that you will take other sources of damage as well. Saying it’s a non-factor is completely ignorant. And no, you don’t need a mesmer or condi-whatever-build on the other team for that.
Also, again, life force and Shroud completely ignore all of the advantages you get with healing effectiveness because lf regen is always percentage based. Plus, it’s way more easily generated than regular hp, even when you get supported by allies.

Crinn.7864:

Vitality does not provide mitigation period, and the increase to shroud HP is not as exciting as people think. Moreover not having toughness leaves you vulnerable to getting deleted by power builds when out of shroud.

We’ve been over this topic since 2012… but ok:

First of all, when you argue that toughness mitigates direct damage, you also have to accept that extra hp “mitigates” armor-ignoring damage like conditions or leeching.

Secondly, amulets with just one minor defensive stat (560 vitality or toughness), for example marauder and demolisher will give you about the same effective hp against direct damage.

The choice for most classes comes down to: healing effectiveness vs a condition damage buffer. (it’s PvP, you will almost always be taking some condition damage)

Necros, however, have basically no healing of their own and life force regeneration is percentage based. Also, when you factor in the damage reduction in Shroud, any extra point of hp will increase your lf pool by 1.38 life force, or even 1.587 life force with Soul Reaping.

Bottom line: vitality is generally a more valuable stat for necros.

Crinn.7864:

Stand The Wall.6987:

why are people saying necro has no sustain? isn’t that what the 2nd health bar is? granted you have to land certain attacks to fill it up, but still.

Buffer != sustain.

He was being sarcastic.

Anchoku.8142:

One problem with DS is that almost all of its damage potential scales with power on Life Blast. Life Transfer is also power-based, iirc.

Only Torment and the optional Dhuumfire and Terror do condition damage so bleed builds see a larger dps reduction in DS than power builds.

There is bleeding on Dark Path.

Also, with Barbed Precision Life Transfer can actually inflict a few stacks of bleeding.
It would do so even more reliably before the specialization rework in June 2015. Back then Barbed Precision had a 66% proc chance instead of 33%.

But this is part of the problem with Death Shroud:
Its balance (if there ever was one…) is stuck in 2015 or even earlier.
There hasn’t been any buff to Death Shroud since, except for a baseline piercing Life Blast.

Reaper’s Shroud, however, and the chill/bleed traits in the Reaper specialization are not only innately stronger for condition builds, but almost every core trait that interacts with Shroud skills has way better synnergy with Reaper’s Shroud.

Bottom line:
When the power creep creeped its way through HoT, Death Shroud was simply left behind and now it is long overdue for several significant buffs.

Siren.2843:

dat winrate is just stupid

I’m actually surprised it isn’t better.
All top ranked players – including his main account – have a very similar w/l ratio while exclusively playing against a higher mmr bracket.

cranos.5913:

BloodriverTim.2031:

This is a bad representation of the how the system works. If he played a good number of games in bronze, then tried to climb, it would show what most users complain about. His mmr was still volatile enough to have the system pull him out of bronze, but if he got a 50% win rate for say, 30 games in bronze and then tried to climb, he would have a much more difficult time of it.

Why would a decent player have a 50% winrate in bronze for 30 games? Your example makes no sense.

For the same reason a decent player would start in bronze in the first place? You lose more matches on purpose.

But it really wouldn’t have made a difference. If you’re good you won’t stay in bronze regardless of how many matches you’ve played.

nothelseth.4621:

Warrior is easily the best carry class for lower ranks.

More like: any dps build.

bulauchenka.5382:

DS :
a) #1 auto is slow and weak

Weak? Debatable.
Slow? Definitely.

I’m sure you’re refering to the hit rate of Life Blast in general, but it would already vastly improve the skill if they shortened the cast time but in turn increased the aftercast delay.
So basically, this would allow you to cast the first Life Blast faster without changing the skill overall. Plus, since it’s a Shroud skill, you couldn’t exploit by stowing weapons to speed it up.

bulauchenka.5382:

b) #4 has no dmg at all, bad with healing power scaling

Healing power scaling? Are you refering to Transfusion?
If yes, that trait actually scales rather well. Also, it’s the same for both Shrouds.

bulauchenka.5382:

a) #2 teleport forward if used without target

That would be an awesome change.

Lahmia.2193:

Well I’d say the main problem with core necro is its lack of stability

Correct.

Lahmia.2193:

1. could easily be given stability on use for the duration, maybe 2 or 3 stacks?

It would be almost useless on #4.
Tainted Shackles should get stability.

Sigmoid.7082:

flow.6043:

Sigmoid.7082:

Also the shout heal, again, is fine. It doesnt need to heal more since it heals pretty much the same as everything else in its bracket of 20s cooldowns, if not more.

That’s a pointless comparison.
Other classes have additional defensive mechanisms, necros only have their hp, so it only makes sense that our healing values should be a lot higher.

Not really since it gives LF and potentially a lot of it. You cant just count the raw heal and say “others are higher” or what you have said without actually considering the LF , our main defensive mechanic , gained. When thats considered it “heals” pretty much for more than everything in its bracket.

Again with the “bracket”… like I said, stop comparing to other heals.
And I really shouldn’t have to tell a fellow necro, but: life force is generated a lot more easily than actual hp. So whatever amout you get with the shout is meaningless if the base heal is so poor.
Plus, you pretend like the scaling of it makes it any better, but similar to all other skills we have, it doesn’t scale well enough when it really matters. Meaning, when you’re getting focused in team fights a few extra % of life force won’t save you. Actually, in that case you’re almost always better off with a full cleanse.

Sigmoid.7082:

Also the shout heal, again, is fine. It doesnt need to heal more since it heals pretty much the same as everything else in its bracket of 20s cooldowns, if not more.

That’s a pointless comparison.
Other classes have additional defensive mechanisms, necros only have their hp, so it only makes sense that our healing values should be a lot higher.

Lordrosicky.5813:

The minion thing = Ok fine. It does its job. I would make him look cooler though.

Doesn’t heal through Shroud.

Also, you forgot Vamp Signet, and its leeching charges don’t heal through Shroud either.

Shaogin.2679:

Would like to point one thing out, EVERY class has better survival when paired with an ele. In fact, those other classes have better damage and survival on their own, and surpass anything the Necro could accomplish when paired with an ele. The reason why you think of necro when you think of ele, is because necro is the only class that NEEDS the Ele. And you guys telling Necros that they can’t have the option to TRADE damage for survival, something other classes do not have to do to the extent Necros do, because apparently they are supposed to be balanced around their Ele babysitters!? Get out of here with that crap!

^

Shadowstep.6049:

Sigmoid.7082:

All you have done is answer a question with a question. You haven’t addressed what I said.

And you haven’t addressed what i said. You just asking for unkillable bunker meta all over again.

Your assumption is false. A necro with all the proposed defensive buffs in this thread plus ele would not turn into some bunker meta and it certainly wouldn’t be unbeatable.

Also, you’re asking us to prove a negative, but you’re the one who first needs make some valid arguments for your own claim. (spoiler alter: you can’t)

sophiewhite.3149:

yup either way when i walk onto a point as a necro whoever i target immedietly loses all their boons including resistance. (not a necro main just play it from time to time) i feel your pain when it comes to solo queing. but assuming necro did get buffed and had team support there would be no killing them. period. as of right now they can wipe teams out 1 by 1.

Well… not only did you not know how Spiteful Spirit works, but then you made it very clear that you got your almost non-existent experience as necro against the worst players in game.

Shadowstep.6049:

Rolisteel.1375:

Why you say none can kill necros if they get buffed and even if they have team support?

It won’t happen. Necro is already near immortal with ele support.

Against terrible opponents, yes.

Rolisteel is right. You are wrong.

It’s always the same, whenever there’s a discussion about necro balance, a ton of people who evidently don’t know anything about necro at all come flooding in and derail potentially constructive discussions with their absurd arguments from ignorance.

NeXeD.3042:

actually the primary source for boon corruption is the spite grandmaster now.

NeXeD.3042:

one ds proc can corrupt 10 boons at once….. your going to get that more than you will finish a scepter chain on someone.

NeXeD.3042:

Crinn.7864:

“Can” and “will” are two different things.

Procmancer is still bad for solo queuing. Would not recommend to friends.

regardless you are still going to corrupt more boons with that one trait than you will with scepter 1 chain. Getting the full scepter chain is much rarer than hitting your ds button.

I’m so confused.
Are you talking about Spiteful Spirit?
Spite gm trait of the current metabattle build. One trait. 10 boons at once…? How??
You do know that Spiteful Spirit only corrupts one boon per target, right?
And were you really talking about corrupting a single target? Because then it’s really just 1 boon every 20-30 seconds or whatever your Shroud timing happens to be.
Also, there’s no trait or skill that could corrupt 10 boons on one target.
The best necros can do is 3 on Corrupt Boon and Spinal Shivers/Chill of Death.
Even if you were thinking of aoe corrupts, other skills can easily outperform Spiteful Spirit.
So, again, what are you talking about??

Aesa.4819:

flow.6043:

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

Afaik, what is stated in the wiki is intended:
“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force.”

If by “intended” you mean Anet knows about it but fixing it has not been their highest priority for the past 3.5 years, then yeah… intended.

Also, it’s not just direct damage, it’s everything, even falling damage.
This bug was a byproduct of fixing another bug that caused necros to only have half hp in downstate. Presumably, the fact that Death Shroud used to be the necro’s downstate in some beta build of the game caused this fix to affect both.
People back then actually thought at first that necros suddenly had twice as much life force. Only a few months later Anet added actual number values to the life force bar which made it possible to test what’s going on. And as it turned out, overflow damage would substract the correct amount of life force from the lf pool, thus making a damage reduction more likely than having twice as much lf with a wrongly displayed number.

The fact remains, however, it’s a bug. It’s certainly not intended. Tolerated perhaps, after all it has become part of how necro is balanced.

Gwaihir.1745:

Necs will never be allowed healing in shroud. Eles whille just heal them to full long before they shroud dissapears.

I really hate this argument.
Every time the subject healing through Shroud is brought up someone says something along the lines of: but what if they get healed… by allies?!?! Well, that’s the point!
Necros really need that support. They are the easiest targets in team fights, yet they are the only class that can’t be healed by allies half the time.
Also, people tend to hugely overestimate how much healing through Shroud would actually impact those fights. If a necro is fighting with decent support players they will usually wait for the right moment anyway, instead of pointlessly blowing all heals on Shroud. So the net gain in this case would mostly be a QoL buff for allies so they wouldn’t have to worry about wasting their heals.

I don’t share your pessimism for Blood Magic. Nevertheless, all your suggested buffs make sense and would be great.

However, you forget to add the perhaps most important one: all healing needs to work through Shroud.
Which, btw, is the only way you could ever make Well of Blood viable because currently the healing pulses don’t heal through Shroud, which also means that Ritual of Life isn’t a viable trait because more often than not necros will try to Shroud-rez their allies.

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

I have some questions about the decay timer.

Does 3 days mean 72 hours starting after your last played game?
Or does it work like a daily achievment? Like, play once a day at any time of the day and you won’t decay for the next entire 3 days?
And do you get hit by the decay immediatly after the 3rd day or would it check if you played on the 4th day at all before you get -100?

Also, does season 5 end somewhen during Feb 7th? Or will the ladder be locked by the end of 6th again?

A more specific problem: I already know that I’ll be on vacation starting Saturday before the season ends.
Server reset in central Europe for dailies and stuff is currently at 1 am.
So, let’s say I stay up past 1 am and play a ranked game.
Will my mmr be safe until the end of the season? Or am I definitely going to be rated -100 by then?

Lahmia.2193:

Honestly, I’d just be happy if they made Vampiric Aura a baseline Blood Magic trait (swap with Last Rites).

But Last Rites is a really good trait. And if you baselined Vamp Aura it wouldn’t make sense to have Vampiric as a minor trait in a different tier as well.

Flumek.9043:

flow.6043:

Even if that assumption was true, what would happen with more than one necro in your team?
Would necros be able to double that balanced value by sharing auras with each other?
Or – and this would be pretty ironic – would you deny necros yet another source of healing they should be getting from allies?

Anyway, imo the mechanic of those traits are fine, although they could both use better scaling with stats.

Dont the auras already NOT stack?

They don’t.
But in your suggestion you would combine both values of Vampiric and Vampiric Presence in Vampiric, and then have Vampiric Presence do the sharing but not benefit the necro himself.
So what happens when 2 necros run that trait? Does it not stack? Would two necros fighting together make the trait entirely useless for both players? And would you really want a trait that can only work on all classes but necro? Or would it work on necros too as long as they don’t use Blood Magic?
Or would it stack and effectively double the healing values for both necros? In which case your assumption about how those values are balanced doesn’t work.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The Healing Power bonus is honestly the better part of Last Rites. Contrary to what you constantly hear, Necros actually have very good scaling with Healing Power.

Except for Vamp traits though.

Flumek.9043:

So necro alone has to be balanced FOR MAX CASE A+B
…
TLDR
A combined stronger VAMPIRIC for necro.
A VAMPIRIC AURA trait that applies the necros stronger vampiric to allies.

Even if that assumption was true, what would happen with more than one necro in your team?
Would necros be able to double that balanced value by sharing auras with each other?
Or – and this would be pretty ironic – would you deny necros yet another source of healing they should be getting from allies?

Anyway, imo the mechanic of those traits are fine, although they could both use better scaling with stats.

Crowley.8761:

Anyway, point is that you can’t beat a good Mesmer 1v1 (at least not with the standard build) and that is not your purpose anyway.

Imo the biggest culprit here is moa. A decent mesmer will always land that skill, dodging it as necro would be incredibly lucky. So that will either kill you right away or force you off point.

Other than that, the only way to stand a fair chance is by sustaining yourself by hitting clones. So Locust Swarm/Signet, traited wells, traited shouts etc.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

flow.6043:

But there’s one very obvious buff they could add rather easily: stability on Tainted Shackles. 3 stacks, 3 seconds, so it basically covers the time between cast and the immob hit in the end.

I feel like I would prefer that Tainted Shackles became instant-cast since it barely has an animation anyway, just an irritatingly long aftercast. Instead, give Stability for Life Transfer so you can’t be interrupted while siphoning Life Force. And perhaps increase the Life Force gain as well.

The whole point of having stability on Tainted Shackles would be so you could use it while casting other skills – like Life Transfer – or during stuff like rezzing/stomping.
After all, that’s one of the main reasons why Infusing Terror makes RS so much more superior to DS.
Stability on Life Transfer, however, would just protect Life Transfer, nothing else.
So Tainted Shackles really is the obvious solution here.

Dadnir.5038:

chrono line only really give you an easy access to a passive movment ability

Shield? Continuum Split?

Dadnir.5038:

Elementalist lose some flexibility…

No.

Dadnir.5038:

Scrappers gain a drone that almost never work, to the point that if it wasn’t here it would be the same.

You mean Function Gyro has no noticable impact on gameplay?
Do you even guild wars?

Dadnir.5038:

Berserker gain new abilities but trading a core traitline for berserk traitline is a huge loss

Wrong.

Dadnir.5038:

Core ranger and druid are almost as effective as is, the only difference is that druid is more forgiving and suit better players that have a hard time using dodge.

What… but… what??

Dadnir.5038:

Thieves gain a skill on dodge, well not a big deal.

Dadnir stoooop iiiiiiiiiit!!!

Dadnir.5038:

For revenant…
People just didn’t had the time to gain enough insight of the core profession

Yup, 1 year is definitely not enough. And the player base is way too small, so there’s no way anyone could’ve tried core rev in that time.

Dadnir.5038:

guy like you were despising me in fractal because I was using a condi mesmer

Were you talking about PvE this whole time?

Dadnir.5038:

You are so used to the elite spec that you don’t even understand haw much you lose by taking those very spec.

Not only are you wrong but you’ve lost all credibility.

Crinn.7864:

Oh and charge isn’t a projectile so it’s not ruined by all the projectile hate.

To be fair, neither is Dark Path because it’s unblockable.

Dadnir.5038:

And the strange fact that skill #5 which apply torment, root ennemies at the end of the skill (which hurt the full effect of torment).

This might look like a design flaw to some people, but the idea here is that your opponent either moves out of range with torment or gets immobilized.
Regardless, the difference in potential torment damage is negligable, especially when you consider that the immob hit’s direct damage is likely to more than make up for it anyway.

Baseleader.4128:

Reaper is def better, but the difference is definitely smaller than other classes.

True. But other classes shouldn’t be a point of reference here.
The fact that other classes’ elite specs are by design upgrades rather than side grades is irrelevant to necro. Death Shroud is weaker than Reaper’s Shroud, so fix it and buff DS.

bearshaman.3421:

But there is one number you’re forgetting that is important to a lot of people: range. RS is a melee shroud, and melee attacks are typically stronger because you are up close to your target. Reaper (in general, the shroud in particular) is all about beating things in the face, but if you want to do that at range, DS is definitely the better shroud.

You misunderstand.

When people say RS is stronger they don’t mean it does more damage against a training golem.
It’s all about utility. RS has some mobility, stability, an ice field, a leap and two whirl finishers, and a lot more on-point aoe pressure. DS has…. range, wow!

People have been asking for those things for years, long before HoT was even announced. Then the elite spec gets all those nice features and our core Shroud is left behind without any of it. Feelsbadman.

Of course, it wouldn’t make sense to completely redisign Death Shroud to accomodate the same amount of finishers or whatever.
But there’s one very obvious buff they could add rather easily: stability on Tainted Shackles. 3 stacks, 3 seconds, so it basically covers the time between cast and the immob hit in the end.

MethaneGas.8357:

if Deathshroud does get buffs next patch

MethaneGas.8357:

I guess I owe everyone 1 copper. kitten.

You do?
Did I miss something?

Lahmia.2193:

It would be a fair comparison if Necro had access to both Death and Reaper’s Shroud at the same time.

More like: when life force is at 100% you gain access to Reaper’s Shroud on f2.

And no, this shouldn’t really happen, it’s just a direct comparison to warrior’s elite spec mechanics.

That being said…

bearshaman.3421:

Core necro is fine.

No, it’s not.
RS is stronger than DS in almost every way.
I know, core builds are still being played today, but non of them because anyone prefers DS over RS.

DiscordOfSound.2190:

I was thinking that the Necro’s Well of Corruption could be altered to where when it’s cast, anyone caught in it has 3 boons corrupted per second, instead of ticking 1 boon corrupt per second. Everything else about it would remain the same.

I would agree if corrupting boons was the only thing WoC did. But it also does damage, generate life force and it siphons hp when traited. So in that context 3 boons/second sounds like overkill.

Rolisteel.1375:

Don’t understand why get many dislikes already. its a skilled necro gameplay.

If you didn’t know this was Posi you’d think some hotjoin player just uploaded their first video ever. Gameplay is boring, opponents are terrible and the video quality is way too blurry. So when you title it “highlights 2016” it’s hardly surprising you get so many dislikes.

I don’t think the game needs a 1v1 mode.

However, the “there’s no 1v1 balance” argument is really weak here.
Because by that logic there shouldn’t be any PvP at all. After all, certain team compositions are better than others, just like certain 1v1 matchups work like rock-paper-scissors.
So queuing for some hypothetical 1v1 arena against some random opponent would actually be pretty much the same as queuing for a 5v5 match with 9 other people, except maybe there would evolve a different build meta for that 1v1 game mode.
You’d win some, you’d lose some, whatever. Same difference.

draxynnic.3719:

flow.6043:

You’re refering to 1v1s, but the defensive scaling when being focused in team fights was the same. Even if some opponents used tankier stats, when it mattered the most it didn’t make a difference to necros at all.

Actually, a lot of necromancer sustain does scale – …

I never said there aren’t any skills that do scale.
But you’re saying it like they actually work as a true alternative to the defensive mechanics of other classes. They don’t! Non of them, not even close and not even if you use them all at the same time.

draxynnic.3719:

… the balance has tipped to a point where necromancer sustain largely can’t cope even with the scaling it can benefit from in teamfights.

I think this sentence sums up your entire post. And both of your implications are simpy not true.

There never – in the entire history of the game – has been a time when necros had decent enough sustain, especially in team fights.
Necro’s defensively scaling skills are and always have been extremely poor. The skills you’re refering to add some more life force or healing, but even when you hit as much targets as possible, they can’t compesate for the extra damage, debuffs and stuns of just one extra opponent.
And as a cherry on top, despite the almost non-existent scaling against multiple opponents, necros can’t even be healed through Shroud by allies or most of their own skills and trait.
It’s beyond ridiculous.
And to suggest that there was ever some sort of balance here that has “tipped” because other players do more damage, is an insult to everyone who has ever played necro.

So just to be clear, there has never been a tipping point in balance and/or meta that would’ve made necros go from viable to liability. At best you could argue that external factors made the ever present weaknesses of necros even more obvious.

And regarding all the post saying that it’s only an issue for solo que: you’re wrong.

macon.4065:

It causes the necromancer not to be ready when they enter a zone.

What exactly do you need to be ready for? And do you really have problems generating life force in PvE?

xbutcherx.3861:

My condition damage doesn’t move whether I have more or less precision.

Can you post some screenshots?

draxynnic.3719:

flow.6043:

Also, even though you could use mercenary amulets, necro’s survivability back then was just as terrible as it is now.
Everyone running takier stats was completely irrelevant to necro’s viability (which even in s2 was debatable btw).

Actually, it does make a difference. People running tankier stats – both the necro and their enemies – means that DPS is lower. Lower DPS means that the theme of the reaper – where you can just facetank damage because you’re going to heal by stealing the enemy’s life force faster than they can kill you – actually has a chance to work.

You’re refering to 1v1s, but the defensive scaling when being focused in team fights was the same. Even if some opponents used tankier stats, when it mattered the most it didn’t make a difference to necros at all.

Aenaos.8160:

I can kill anything on my Necro.
It carried me to Legendary last season,and whenever I play it,it simply destroys any other class 1v1 and is still one of the better force multiplier classes in game.

Cool story.
Getting to legendary was no big deal in any season, regardless of what class you used to get there.

Aenaos.8160:

Maybe if people didn’t just copy builds from meta battle and put some effort in finding their own builds we wouldn’t have posts like this one.
If you play a Necro you know you will be focused at the start,adjust your build and play style accordingly.

Oh ok. If only we knew this before… thanks.

Threather.9354:

-Spectral Grasp says obstructed sometimes when it obviously isnt (WvW)

This isn’t an issue with the skill but the terrain. It happens all the time with all kinds of projectile skills. Mostly on bridges, I think. And some targets seem to be more prone to this than others, like dolyaks.

Regarding your list, you forgot the 50% damage reduction in Shroud.

It works for me. 13% of precision is added to condition damage.

Lordrosicky.5813:

MethaneGas.8357:

it neeeeeds some kind of buff to its Deathshroud spells so that they’re equally useful for power and condi playstyles like Life Transfer pulsing poison. It also needs a bit of a survivalbility boost – Tainted Shackles giving stability per pulse, per enemy shackled? Or life transfer becoming an evade? Maybe Dark Path leaving behind a dark trail on the ground to your target and if you hit someone and teleport to them, you can press the skill again to teleport back to your initial spot? I’m kind of surprised they aren’t buffing or reworking these skills yet tbh. There’s so much potential in each of them…

I agree with you. Hence why poison on ds4 and stability on ds5 would help. Then at least ds would be reasonable for condi. Ds5 is so bad maybe it should apply more torment. And maybe ds1 should apply bleed. None of this would be op, it would still be bad compared to reapear

I don’t share yours and Methane’s pessimism for Tainted Shackles, but I do agree with every suggestion for buffing DS skills.
Reaper’s Shroud is better in almost every way, and it still would be if you buffed every DS skill significantly.

Crinn.7864:

Lordrosicky.5813:

No i was saying extra hp becomes worse relative to evades and invulns when power creep happens. For example, everytime they reduce the cd of a skill which does damage or buff its damage, or improve a damage trait then it makes extra hp worse relative to evades.

There have been no notable buffs to damage skills since s2 (which was when we where last meta)

Our current state is caused by nerfs and amulet removals that resulted in the meta being pushed into a high DPS meta. Compare this to s2 where everyone was running paladin bruisers that we could hold against with LF gen.

Just a reminder: s2 was before Deathly Chill and Infusing Terror was nerfed.
Also, even though you could use mercenary amulets, necro’s survivability back then was just as terrible as it is now.
Everyone running takier stats was completely irrelevant to necro’s viability (which even in s2 was debatable btw).

Crinn.7864:

Lordrosicky is trying to argue that HP buffer defensives become worse the more mitigation is in the meta.

No, he isn’t.

Crinn.7864:

Evades can only mitigate attacks, if you are being hit for crap then they will mitigate for crap. LF generation works regardless of how much or how little damage we take.

You still don’t get it.

Evading or blocking or whatever means you take zero damage, regardless of wether that damage would’ve been 1k or 10k. When you have to face tank everything, however, it certainly does matter how much damage you actually take. Thus, more hp is almost worthless when you get focused by several opponents.

Crinn.7864:

The only Death Shroud buff since HoT was baselining piercing Life Blasts.
Pathetic.

They removed the range scaling on Life Blast. Used to be it only dealt max damage at close range. Now it deals max damage at all ranges.

You’re right. But my point was: nobody cares about Life Blast and any buff to it is meaningless.

Crinn.7864:

they tried to make base shroud ranged.

No they didn’t. They just finally saw that the ranged damage reduction is pointless, and that the old iteration of Unyielding Blast was never taken by anyone ever so it was only logical to baseline it.

Crinn.7864:

the other 4 skills on base shroud are still crap

I disagree.
There’s clearly less internal synergy among those skills than the Reaper’s Shroud skills, but they aren’t bad individually.
Also, the only thing DS really needs to compete with RS is some stability, perferably on Tainted Shackles, but that has been suggested a million times since HoT already.