Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

Yeah, if anyone has doubts about how strong healing in DS would be go play SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM, where every time you use DS you basically reset the entire fight. Now imagine every single build being able to do that all the time without the heavy investment.

I do think they need to address healing in DS in some way, but I don’t think 100% would work without massively nerfing the LF pool.

1. Like I said, removing the 50% dmg bug would be a massive nerf to our lf pool, and that needs to happen anyway. Although I think 50% of what it is now would be way to low even if we got more healing.

2. SR/Unholy Sanctuary Cleric MM might heal for a lot but it’s easily outplayed, even more so when you bring it into team fights.

3. What makes you think that unlocking healing through Shroud would give any regular build the same kind of healing as a cleric MM?
The biggest self healing contributor to regular necros would be regeneration, and that would only tick for half the amount of a cleric necro.
Basically, you’re assuming that ally heals in the time frame you spend in Shroud would add up to the equivalent of a cleric MM self healing capability.
Well, that’s wrong of course, but who says there are allies at all?
I really don’t get how healing through Shroud makes some people think that this would automatically mean 1000000000 hp/s regen in Shroud, and only in Shroud?
Seriously, how much are you guys getting healed for outside of DS now? From my personal experience: somewhere between nothing and ~2-3k every 10 sec from regen and allies. Of course a lot more sometimes from waterfield blasts or guardians but that is not the norm, this doesn’t happen all the time and it will certainly not happen more often when healing through Shroud is unlocked.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Think: how much healing can you recieve during a 3 second block followed by 4 second direct damage immunity? A lot, right? After all, Warriors enjoy this and don’t become overpowered.

How much healing can you receive during a 15 second period where your health can’t be touched? Even in teamfights, it’s not terribly difficult for a Necro to spend that long in Shroud. The correct answer should be “over twice as much”.

Now, how often can a Warrior benefit from Shield Stance into Endure Pain? On average, about once every 30 seconds.

How often can a Necro benefit from Shroud? On average, about a 15 second period in between.

So the expected healing to a Necro while their health is protected? Roughly four times greater than that which a Warrior can enjoy. And the Necro doesn’t lose out on protection against condition damage or unblockable attacks.

See, that’s where you’re wrong.

You are making several assumptions here that will never happen in an actual pvp match (and are therefore outliers):

1. Warriors heal for a lot during their 3 sec block.
Why? Who says this always happens? Is there an npc following them around that automatically heals them for “a lot” once they activate a block skill?

2. If a warrior heals “a lot” in X time, necros will heal twice as much in twice that time frame.
Why? This is NEVER happening in actual fights. There aren’t always people ready to spam heals only because a necro or warrior or whoever else decides to use one of their defensive skills.

3. You are only arriving at the conclusion that warriors have a lower uptime of their stances and blocks than the Shroud of necros because you’re assuming that your hypothetical fight will last for several minutes.
What if that fight is much shorter, like less than 20 seconds? In that time a warrior can use his traited stances + the Last Stand proc and total 10 sec each for Berserker Stance and Endure Pain. Add stability, some dodges, a few Whirlwind Attacks and maybe Rampage to top it all off.
During this shorter time the warrior’s defenses far surpasses the uptime of any necro’s Shroud.

4. You’re assuming that necros spend 40% of their fighting time in Shroud and will access it every 15 seconds. So that would be 10 sec of Shroud every 25 seconds. And in that time they would presumably get healed back to full by allies, yes?
Why? Who are those incompetent opponents?
Are you fighting training golems? Is this in PvE?
Seriously, this is NEVER happening against half decent players. And it will certainly never ever happen where balance actually matters: against top players.

5. And last but not least:
You keep pretending that Shroud is this warm blanky we can retreat into, where we can just chill and weather the storm that is raging outside until we’re good and ready to expose ourselves to the real dangers again!
This is just not true. Life force is a valuable and finite resource. Taking damage against it is nothing you can just shrug off as basically having taken no damage at all. While it arguably is less precious than actual hp, you still have to manage it carefully and you will not always be able to replenish as much of it as you pretend we can do.
Also, unlike invulns/blocks/etc… in Shroud you can get stunned, your allies can get stunned if they try to peel (or heal) for you, you’re susceptible to all kinds of hard and soft CC without proper tools to defend against it. And even if you absorb most damage with life force, there’s a good chance condition damage and bigger hits will overflow to your regular hp once your lf is gone.
Just heal and regen lf once you’re outside of Shroud? No! Any decent opponent will not let this happen if they get the opportunity!

I don’t know how much more obvious it could be: your hypotheticals about necro becoming op and/or unkillable are purely based on fights that are never happening. And even if they did, it wouldn’t be because healing through Shroud is op, but because their opponents are terrible players.

spoj.9672:

Although on mossman the superior sustained aoe of condi certainly helps with wolves. Shouldnt need staff though. That weapon is bad. :P

Booo! :P

Seriously though, I think he used the staff because of the geomancy and hydro sigils. And the cd of Mark of Blood is low enough to land 2 + Chillblains + one or two utility skills before going back to scepter or into Shroud. So I think in that case it was a good choice because it’s more aoe against the wolves than simply staying on scepter the whole time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Real mature, there, flow. You don’t have evidence to back up your claim whereas looking at how durable what we already get makes us backs me up rather well.

Chill dude. Also, the statement “look how durable..” doesn’t back you up any better than me saying “look how fast I die, and look how I wouldn’t have died if I actually got the healing my ally tried to use on me.”

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And again, that healing is from only one player. More meta team comps would include a Shoutbow Warrior and D/D Celementalist, meaning equivalent or better heals rolling in which, on the Necro, cannot be counteracted with DPS

And again, how would a necro benefit from such a composition more than a different class? Are you suggesting that dps is a counter to invuln, blocks or evades? Are you suggesting that another ele in that group couldn’t rotate through fire and air attunement while your rev, shoutbow and second ele are healing that player for the full amount until that ele can heal himself when back in water?
And no, Shroud having a higher uptime doesn’t make it better or more sustainable than those other mechanics.
All you do is come up with outlier scenarios that only prove my point rather than yours.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

A single Ventari Revenant pumps that out every 2 seconds with ease, and that’s without investing in healing power or outgoing healing. With, you’re easily seeing heals of 3k per second if they’re being conservative with their energy. If they’re not, you’re looking at easy 6k h/s

Again, how would this make necros any better than another class receiving that kind of healing?

Also, if this was a real fight, do you really think the opponents of that duo would let the rev heal his ally all the time? It would be the easiest fight ever, stun and kill the revenant first and from then on it’s a 2v1 against the necro. Comps like these already exist, they are bad and easy to outplay.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

100% healing in Death Shroud would make us the most broken thing the game has seen. This much I can garuntee. Healing while your health can’t be touched is much, much stronger than healing normally. I cannot stress this enough.

Just… no. This much I can guarantee! :P
Healing while your health can’t be touched by a life force pool is exactly the same as getting healed when you’re stealthed or invuln or blocking or running condi immunities against condi builds or direct dmg immunities against power builds.
I can’t stress enough how much you’re overestimating our Shroud and how wrong you are about all of it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

“But other classes can get healed through blocks/invulnerabilitie/etc.” Stop. Just stop.

Do you know why those don’t unbalance the game, but doing the same with shroud would? Because Shroud’s uptime is vastly higher than that of blocks or invulnerabilities. It’s not uncommon for Necros to spend 40% of a fight in Shroud.

Again, wrong.

I just meant to point out that you’ve argued against your own concern.
You said we would need to “rebalance some things” if we got more healing, then you said: necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. But all more healing through Shroud would do is improve our position in 5v5 and change almost nothing in 1v1s.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

This guy is just a massive flamebait and anything with him involved turns in to a troll/rantfest.

The irony in this is that whenever someone disagrees with Nemesis, he accuses them of being trolls.

Silverkey.2078:

Let’s be honest, if we allow heals on shroud, some things would need to be rebalanced, and that mean we would be temporary OP or UP depending on how a-net does it.

But currently, necro is good in 1v1, and sucks in 5v5. Allowing healing from allies on shroud would reduce this disparity.

You do see the contradiction here, right?
You say we would need a nerf to compensate for the added healing. But it would change almost nothing in 1v1s and add more team synergy for bigger fights, at which we currently do indeed suck.

Silverkey.2078:

I sometimes play support guardian while my gf plays necro, and it is very difficult when I try to help her to tell “please leave shroud I’m going to heal you” and then for some reason I get interrupted or whatever and I just killed her because she’s now without shroud AND with low health.

A perfect example for why this needs to change.

spoj.9672:

Im impressed nemesis actually went and did a solo. Kudos for that. I was enjoying the video until the commentary started. :<

It was similar for me actually. I didn’t see the whole thing, just skipped forward a couple of times. So at first I thought, hey Nemesis is doing a solo with staff and mad king runes, that’s nice… skip… rants about elitist exploiters. lol

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Also, Flow, now that we have a bit more healing in death shroud and with Reaper incoming, I can say with absolute certainty that unrestricted healing in death shroud would be horrendously OP. Even just with adding siphons to what can heal us, Necro survivability jumped pretty significantly when running blood magic. Blighter’s Boon has already been catching complaints about how tanky it makes us.

If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?

3k+ in what time frame? Once every 10 sec maybe, that would change nothing except QoL for team skill rotations.

Also, like I said, there’s the dmg reduction bug, our lf pool is actually supposed to be a lot smaller.

I agree on Blood Magic though, it gave us a decent sustain boost. But only when you compare it to what we had before, which was nothing! And it’s still not enough.

And I know there’ve been complaints about Blighter’s. But Blighter’s Boon isn’t op, not by itself, not in combo with Blood Magic, and all of it combined still wouldn’t be op if you added additional healing from a full team of guards and eles. Why? because running such a comp comes with a huge opportunity cost that will not pay off in the end against a mobile and pure dps oriented composition.

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s totally possible for the devs to nerf Death Shroud’s base mechanics hard enough so that healing through it wouldn’t result in infinite survival, but why in the world would we want them to turn DS into tissue paper?

I’d like to say “agree to disagree…” but at this point I’m having a really hard time taking you seriously.
The only way our Shroud would retain its current tankyness when combined with healing is when you nerf it into a tissue paper?
Are we playing the same class? Or even the same game??
You know, this is the gw2 forum… it’s about guild wars… just an fyi in case you got lost and ended up here somehow.

In an actual pvp match, the only way to survive an outnumbered fight indefinitely is when you’re up against bad opponents, this will not change if you add a little more healing. Yes, I said a little more, because that’s all it is. Going into Shroud will not automatically shower you with Healing Mists and waterfield blasts. The only thing access to full healing will change is the occasional 1-2k healing skill from an ally that would otherwise be wasted, maybe some more regeneration ticks and some projectile or whirl finisher siphons. Not more.
And no, that special team you’re thinking of that could heal-spam a necro in DS to be “immortal” doesn’t exist. And even if it did, guess what: other classes would do even better.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Phoenix.2650:

Nyth.3492:

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

You are refering to the beta before game release, I assume? That was more than 3 years ago, not only did people not know how to play back then, but the game is completely different now. The “but in beta…” is a rediculous argument to bring into any discussion today.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Look, guys, the simple fact of the matter is that we’re not gonna get full healing through Death Shroud. We’re just not. Partial healing isn’t all that much more likely either (frankly, I was surprised and delighted that ANet deigned to let our life siphons heal us in DS). We’ve gotta learn to accept that and proceed to think up other solutions. I think mine’s pretty fair but I’d be interested to hear other options as well. Clamouring for full healing through DS is just a total waste of time, though.

Don’t say that!

First of all, you and everyone else stating that healing through Shroud would be op is wrong, simple as that. You are hugely overestimating the impact that would have on actual fights.

Secondly, wishing for it is absolutely legitimate and we must have a discussion about it.

In case you don’t remember, Robert Gee said in the preview for the June specialization rework that they would be allowing BM siphons to work through Shroud for now and expand on more healing if necessary.
Well, it is necessary!
Not only would unrestricted healing be a QoL improvment for team coordination, but the lack of it is one of the big issues that are holding back necros in any pvp environment.

As for whatever crazy outlier scenario you can come up with where 4 ranger celestial avatars are heal spamming a single reaper or whatever: any other class can do this already!
Seriously, anyone attempting to justify this clear design flaw of our main defense is simply ignorant of the fact that other classes can reap the full benefits of any source of healing at all times while using their (sometimes superior) defensive mechanics.

The only legitimate approach to defusing the tankyness of Shroud combined with more healing would be to fix the 50% damage reduction. Currently this bug means that the life force pool of a necro without Soul Reaping is effectively 138% of their regular hp, and a necro with Soul Reaping: 158.7%.
So if they fixed that damage reduction they could adjust the regular amount of life force to be an even 100%, so 115% with SR. Basically, this would reduce our current lf pool by ~28%, and to compensate we could get all healing unlocked.

spoj.9672:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Unity

Druid got the real spiteful spirit.

That looks like a weaker version of retaliation.
And our Spiteful Spirit not only comes with a longer duration of retal if it hits several targets but it also does initial damage, rips boons, applies cripple, the cooldown is lower and the radius is double.

On topic, Spiteful Spirit has some niche use for those who don’t play a power build and aren’t using signets. Could it be better? Sure, the cooldown is unnecessary because it’s already gated by the cd of Shroud. And perhaps we’ll see a buff to Unholy Feast (most ppl want a blast finisher) since Master Gee is looking into improving the axe in the foreseeable future anyway.

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Onerios.4962:

For point one, kind of. The same numbers pop up in the combat log regardless of if you are in death shroud or out, but while in if you take a 2k hit you will only lose 1k life force, so its like having 50% damage reduction.

This.
Just to clarify, it would be the same to assume you’re taking regular damage and that the number on your lf bar is actually double.
However, the reason we say there’s a damage reduction is that when we take damage that overflows to our regular health, the correct amount will be substracted from your life force.

Holl.3109:

What I’d like to see is:
-Baseline healing in shroud, with ~50% effectiveness.
-Some GM trait in Blood Magic which ups that to 100 or 125%
-See utility CD’s in shroud

I don’t understand why this hasn’t happened already :<

Let me fix that for you:

- 100% unrestricted healing from all sources at all times work though shroud.
- See utility CD’s in shroud

Really, anything less than 100% makes no sense and would just overcomplicate things.

Zantmar.5406:

it be nice to eb able to interact with wells n stuff

You mean for a life steal projectile that doesn’t heal through shroud anyway?

nekretaal.6485:

Spectral mastery is better than vital persistence if you take 2 spectals and Lich (and it changes spectral walk into a wonderful skill).

The terror trait is subpar because fear is super weak as a CC and terror builds are dead.

This.
I’d even argue that a single spectral skill + Last Gasp makes Spectral Mastery a good pick.
Better lf regeneration > reduced lf degeneration.
Also, the cd reduction for shroud skills is a better reason to pick Vital Persistance than the lower lf degen.

Alpha.1308:

well, that’s a disgusting bug that needs to be fixed, but that’s a different story
i guess it might behave differently with this issue until it’s fixed, then

That’s not a bug.
No transfer can turn someone else’s condition into your own. In a way Epidemic is an exception since the copies it makes will be yours.
So if chill works the same as any other condition, which it should, someone else will basically chill themselves if you transfer it back to them. So that someone can only take damage from chill if the original caster also happens to be a necro who’s traited Deathly Chills.

Jelzouki.4128:

Also does this activate Chilling Nova?

Since Chilling Nova only triggers on critical hits against chilled targets, I would assume no, unless the target was already chilled before the transfer.
Then again, it might be possible that the hit and transfer happens at the same time and therefore there would be chill on your target when you hit. That’s easy to test though.

Great idea.
Reduce the cd a little bit and it’s usable skill again.

Getting Jagged Horrors from Lich was a nice touch ^^

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!

Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.

Yesterday after I saw this thread get hit by this Drarnor-hammer I thought: that’s it, I won’t see this on the front page again…

Seriously, how is this even a discussion? More icds and rng? PLEASE no. Not for Vamp Aura and especially not for Vampiric. If anything we should remove icds from other traits.

Hollts: “dude, the twilight animations look so nice..”
Kami: “I know!” – swaps to Pearl Quarterstaff

So I tried it, and it was pretty much what I expected.
I could indeed reach 40 stacks (~35 average), but only when I used all bleeding skills, sigils of earth and signet of spite. Without earth sigils and the rotation you’ve described I could only get a little over 30.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Take into account more hits for more chances of Barbed Precision.

More hits of what? Like I said, you can’t hit often enough with the rotation you’ve described
Auto attacks + Grasping Dead + Geomancy + Blood is Power + Barbed Precision, that’s supposed to be all you’ve used to reach 40 stacks of bleeding?
Sorry, but that just isn’t possible.

Wondrouswall.7169:

.. about doing bleed rotations by interrupting the last chain on auto since it applies poison

Stowing weapon or interrupting the cast won’t restart the aa chain, so that definitely doesn’t work.

Wondrouswall.7169:

I will say that on single targets, using Enfeebling Blood or Dark Path lowers my bleed applications vs auto attacking on Scepter.

That’s not true.
One aa rotation is ~2.5 sec. That’s longer than the cast time of those skills so you should definitely work them into your rotation.
In fact, dodging (=MoE proc) takes exactly as long as casting Enfeebling Blood or Dark Path (which also inflicts 1 stack more).

Besides, a maxed out duration for Blood/Rending Curse is 20 sec. That means with those skills alone you can get a maximum of 16 stacks. And that’s only if you don’t use any other skills that would interrupt the rotation.

Now keep in mind that Barbed Precision is maxed out at 5 seconds. Any star-aligned bleed proccing would have to happen within less than those 5 sec. So even if you really can maintain more than 30 stacks you’d have to land at least 10 hits in that time frame to exceed 40 stacks. And that simply isn’t happening if all you do is auto attacks.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Here’s a screenshot against the Champion Vile Thrasher solo.

2575 damage with 5 stacks of poison? That’s not possible…

Wondrouswall.7169:

42 Bleeds was the highest I have ever done on a Champion Thrasher in SW. Mostly average around 34 Bleeds.

Pics or it didn’t happen!

Seriously though, with the build you’ve posted your sources of bleeding are:

Scepter auto attack
Grasping Dead (3 stacks)
Enfeebling Blood (2)
Dark Path (3)
Geomancy (3)
Krait runes (2)
Blood is Power (2+2)
Barbed Precision
Mark of Evasion (2)

You can make some of those skills stack with themselves because their duration is longer than their cooldown: Grasping Dead, Mark of Evasion, Geomancy.
So that’s a total of 27 stacks.
Are you really telling us that the you’ve managed to add another 15 stacks with auto attacking and Barbed Precision?

Zefrost.3425:

your special snowflake build that only you in the entire game run that uses lich form, signet of undeath, spectral grasp and corrosive poison cloud with clerics amulet and sigil of smoldering

How do you know about my special build?? I’ve only been playing it at 04:00-05:00 a.m. in hotjoins to keep it a well guarded secret…

Zefrost.3425:

It’s not really a good argument to say that this would step on the toes of warriors battle standard either because ranger has spirit of nature which is also an elite rez.

Tbh I’d rather get rid of all those rez skills.
But of course, promoting Undeath to elite makes more sense than where it is now, it would probably still need a buff to its passive on top of that.

I made these calculations before the June patch. My conclusion was that 2 instead of 3 stacks of bleeding on Mark of Blood wouldn’t be a nerf due to the better damage formula and vulnerability affecting condition damage as well.
However, this was before they changed the formula from (26 + 0.075 cond dmg) to (22 + 0.06 cond dmg). With only 6% scaling the breakeven point for a single stack of bleeding to tick for the same amount as before is with more than 2k condition damage, or at least 1550 against targets with 25 stacks of vulnerability.
Also, it was before they announced that they would nerf the proc chance of Barbed Precision.
Bottom line: our bleeding is weaker and we’re applying less of it.
I actually wouldn’t mind that much if their intention was to lower the damage of condition builds in general, but clearly that is not the case when you look at the rediculous amounts of burning damage that some classes can pump out.

Mark of Blood should get 3 stacks again.

Nemesis.8593:

flow.6043:

Nemesis:
“I don’t care about views because gw2 isn’t popular enough to make any money with it anyway…”
…
“Great success! Look at how many views I got because I overdramatized my content!”

You’re going to put words in my mouth again ?… You’re like 12 aren’t you… The second quote is not mine, you straight up invented it…

Nemesis.8593:

… i added a bit of drama… Reddit post exploded, replies were coming in faster then i could read them, 16000 views in 2 days…

…

If i put on calculations with a dull voice like on the weather channel, people will close the video by the 3rd minute, i would get 3000 views… 300 people would actually get it…

I just wasted 3 weeks of my life so that 300 people can get my point and i get 2$ from add revenue as a reward.

… you can’t get proper income from Guild Wars 2 content no matter what you do.

So it wasn’t a direct quote, but I rephrased and summarized what you’ve been saying so far.
Do you really not see a contradiction here?
You claim that you want to be provocative in order to boost your video’s popularity. But why do you do it? According to you that’s a pointless effort because you can’t make money with gw2 anyway.
Well then, are you doing it to reach a bigger audience with the points you’re trying to make? In that case, just have a proper discussion with us instead of immediately accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of being a troll.

Nyth.3492:

You think his video would have gotten the attention it did without the drama ?
Look at how much attention it’s getting, just because Nemesis is poking a beehive with a stick a bit.
And all the suckers are massively falling for it.

Yes, falling for it…

Nemesis:
“I don’t care about views because gw2 isn’t popular enough to make any money with it anyway…”
…
“Great success! Look at how many views I got because I overdramatized my content!”

Wondrouswall.7169:

Could warriors also benefit from these spots to build up adrenaline?

Yes.
And Kyhlo’s clocktower also allows some classes to teleport through walls to the middle of the point. It’s a weird map in that way, always has been.

Why would this be specific to the Reaper? And why would this be cause for a nerf now when it has been in the game forever?

Kravick.4906:

Lachanche.6859:

this is a terrain inherent bug it can not be fixed without some drastic changes to the phisics engine.

now i want you to think about this: what do you think is more likely, a drastic overhaul of the phisics engine or a change to the reaper ?

Nerf the Reaper (or necro) for all game modes because there are some places they can get more life force? Yeah, no.
It’s more likely that the terrain would be changed, or that the map would be dropped from rotation.

Besides, how would this nerf to necros look like anyway? Remove all life force regeneration?

Nemesis.8593:

Kravick.4906:

I’m still waiting for you to show me the base numbers on that DPS of warrior vs necro that I asked for almost two years ago.

You can always do it yourself… record a warrior run, record a necromancer run…
…
Come on, do your part

Nemesis.8593:

Kravick.4906:

The burden of proof is on your end.

Do i not keep saying i am working on part II… What do i keep saying…

Ohhhh you’re ignoring what i say because you are trolling… oh man… you got me good there…

So which is it?
Are you asking others to do those calculations (which have been done many times anyway) or are you doing them in part 2?

Also, we’re really not trying to be rude. But Nemesis, whenever someone challenges the things you say you’re accusing them of being trolls. Why would you expect to be taken seriously when you’re not extending the same courtesy to others?

EremiteAngel.9765:

will plague sending trait proc and transfer condis successfully on invis target?

Yes.

EremiteAngel.9765:

for example if a condi trap thief hits me with condis while in stealth, and i do an AOE attack that crits and I see the plague sending trait proc, will the thief get hit with the condi or will it miss?

It will hit, but you could’ve easily verified this yourself: the signet can only cleanse your conditions if it actually hits.

EremiteAngel.9765:

does the plague sending trait require targeting?

No.

EremiteAngel.9765:

If i do aoe attack and proc crit on 3 different enemies and the plague sending trait activates, who does it send the condis to? the one i am targetting or random?

The closest target.

Unless you want to add even more stability to the Reaper, Death Shroud is the only option to make changes to the base profession alone.
And unless they are going to add new DS skills, adding stability to Tainted Shackles would probably be the most reasonable solution.

meow one twenty.4376:

spoj.9672:

I recommend you avoid watching that video if you want to maintain your mental health. His bad math and “dps uptime” is contagious.

“Brazil had X dps with icebow and timwarp!”. No icebow was used in that clip. #logic

“Each party member is worth roughly 25% of the group’s DPS” Does that mean hes worth 0% and the other 4 do all the damage?

Video is full of embarrasing things like that.

Yeah, I stopped watching after seeing those.

I had to laugh at this too ^^

The only point I would concede is that pre buffing, running into melee range or letting npcs run to you takes away from actual fighting time.
However, like Nemesis mentioned himself, this is a matter of seconds. And if there is one player who’s never doing speed clears anyway (because “exploits”…) and therefore wouldn’t care about those extra seconds in the first place, its good ol’ Nemesis!

gavyne.6847:

Yeah I was gonna mention Death Shroud is most effective up close. Life Blast hits the hardest at 600 range, and hit like wet noodles at 1200 range. Life Transfer and Tainted Shackles are all 600 radius. Within 600 range necros are very susceptible to cc’s. Not to mention Dark Path pulls you to the target. The design ideas behind necro death shroud is that the devs want necros to be up close.

And don’t forget traits like Weakening Shroud or Mark of Evasion.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t know that I mind Death Shroud not having stability as much as I really mind not having any reasonable stability access on the entire base profession.

Just the base profession? Why?

I’ve never complained about the necro’s lack of stability. But when they dump so much stability on Reaper’s Shroud that a guardian could get jealous, I feel it should be pointed out that this will create an imbalance within the class.
So unless Death Shroud gets some stability as well once the expansion is released, we might as well rename it to “PvE leveling Shroud”.

tasha.4176:

Zalavaaris.5329:

tasha.4176:

So, um. Yep. Anyone can beat this? lol.

I think what’s more telling is how much dmg burn did in 90ish hits compared to how much dmg bleed did in 88 hits….

Ya. It’s definitely a dramatic difference.

Incredible.
The difference is even bigger in MAN’s screenshot:
62 burn, 54 bleed ticks – 103 vs 6.5k.

The 153 vamp aura hits are impressive too btw.

While I agree that Foot in the Grave could use a buff to its stability duration and/or stacks, I feel the primary purpose of the trait has shifted to being a stun break.
Also, the shortcomings of Death Shroud should not be fixed by a trait as this would only lead to FitG become mandatory and a limitation to build diversity. Plus, Reapers could take the trait as well so that wouldn’t narrow the gap between RS and DS at all.

Sigmoid.7082:

Foot in the grave needs to be longer and more stacks but im not bothered by this difference because even with its leap RS has no ranged pressure at all unlike death shroud. Rs is pure meleeis it makes sense that it would need greater access to stability. Ds has a lot of range so its a trade of in a sense.

I think you’re forgetting that a Reaper can use any ranged weapon outside of RS. And regular necros fight in melee range all the time, not just by choice of other more mobile classes or for the sake of defending a capture point, but also because that’s where necros are more effective in combat as well.

Anyway, I get that it’s nice to have this huge stability uptime on Reaper, but it seems rather unfair that Death Shroud gets non at all.

Bhawb.7408:

Also, I think the most striking thing about SS is that Blood Bond and Signets of Suffering end up outpacing its boon corruption, before including any other signets.

Maybe if Blood Bond wasn’t bugged to have a 30 sec cd and missed most of the time because of bleed procs to targets behind you. And even then it would only be better against single targets.

On topic:
I’m all for removing the icd of Spiteful Spirit.
On the same issue with Weakening Shroud, Robert Gee said (in the June patch preview) they wanted it to cast Enfeebling Blood every time, and he added that the respective trait (Quickening Thirst) isn’t even in the same specialization.
Reversely, one could argue that therefore Spiteful Spirit should be traitable to have its icd removed by Unholy Fervor since they both are in the same specialization. A traited 12 seconds, however, is barely enough to not have Spiteful Spirit fail too often, and that only applies when you don’t have Speed of Shadows as well.

So the most reasonable thing overall would definitely be to remove the icd entirely.
However, if they really just wanted this to be possible if you also have Unholy Fervor, then they need to make one of the two following adjustments:

1. the base cd of Unholy Feast is reduced to 12.5 seconds.
or
2. the cd reduction of Unholy Fervor is increased from 20% to 33%.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusing_Terror

As it stands, the Reaper already seems to be more popular than the regular necro.
There are several reasons for that, but one of them is this:
Reaper’s Shroud will get stability.
Not just some pitiful single stack like on Foot in the Grave. No, pulsing stability that can add up to 3 stacks at a time and last for up to 11 seconds without extra boon duration!

The first thought that comes to most people’s mind is:
Yes, finally, the regular necro would’ve needed this ages ago, but it makes all the more sense on the Reaper, after all the Reaper is in melee range more often which might require a thicker skin.

However, the by far biggest deal about this is a safe stomp!
Let me say this again for extra emphasis: SAAAAFE STOOOOMMMP!!!!
This is huge.
I’m in no way exaggerating when I say, this will be the single greatest contribution to improving the necro’s position in PvP, because so far the lack of reliable safe stomps has been one of our biggest shortcomings.

Of course, there are some ways for a regular necro to do it, like Well of Darkness, SpecWalk+Wurm or Plague, but those are either too unreliable or their opportunity cost is way to high. And they are a joke when you compare them to something like Distortion, Elixir S or Mist Form.

Anyway, the Reaper will be doing fine in that regard, it seems.
But what about Death Shroud?
Don’t you think it deserves some love as well?
Who in their right mind would even want DS if it’s so much inferior to RS?
I’m not asking to give Death Shroud the same crazy 50%+ uptime of stability as the Reaper. But maybe 3 stacks for 4 seconds on Tainted Shackles? Just enough to get an occasional safe stomp without having to burn through an elite skill with a 3 min cd.

Squeezzy.4718:

I’m seeing a lot of poor condi transfer in this thread… -_-

Yeah, because high dmg means bad transfers? Wrong, quite the opposite actually, you can’t survive long enough to get these numbers without cleansing.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Did somebody said highest burn ever?

Impractical but fun nonetheless lol

93 stacks? :o
The death breakdown probably didn’t have a high number because it was just a guardian’s hp gone in 1 sec. But wow…

Cecilia.5179:

I think burn needs a nerf… Some of the other condis could use some love, like all of the ones Necros use.

I think the burning nerf is just a matter of time.

It’s sad btw how our Mark of Blood got a standard 2 stacks of bleeding in all game modes, which wouldn’t have been a big deal with the originally proposed 7.5% scaling. But when the June patch actually went live the bleeding dmg formula was changed to be a lot weaker. And on top of that Barbed Precision’s proc chance was cut in half.
Basically, the only reason our bleeding dmg isn’t total weak sauce compared to before is because we can combine it with vuln stacking.

Meanwhile in op-land: eles can easily ramp up 1-2k burn ticks with a celestial amulet.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I think I win….

Nice ^^
You have the lead for now anyway.

Siva Mira.3546:

Thief only has ~17k HP and you can take 60k of damage?

It was a long-ish fight, in that time after several heals even a thief could’ve taken more than their total hp. Besides, thieves would’ve evaded most of it in the first place.

Shiki.7148:

Actully you should propably look for the highest burns elsewhere… maybe at someone that was stupid enough to load a Necro full of burning and got it send back into their face and then died from it.

But in that case the damage ticks wouldn’t be higher and the opponent would die faster because they don’t have the same hp+lf-pool as a necro to soak it all up.
You are of course welcome to prove me wrong, but I really doubt you’ll find higher burn numbers in the death breakdown of other classes.

Lately I’ve been checking out my death log in pvp more frequently because eles and guardians inflict rediculous amounts of burning damage and it’s fun (or sad) to see those high numbers.
Why am I posting this on the necro forum? I’m pretty sure the highest of burns are recorded in the death breakdowns of necros because their primary defense is face-tanking!
So I’m asking the community: What’s your burning high score?

I can only present a humble ~61k, screenshot taken today, most of it came from a guardian. And in this match I was using a rampager amulet, so I’m sure a lot of you will be able to surpass this number if you have more vitality in your build than I did.

Nice. Except you didn’t have enough Charr in your comp

I don’t think fear would fit the theme any better than daze.
And if it was fear instead of daze they’d have to nerf the duration. Not only would the base duration have to be a lot lower because fear restricts movement, but they would also have to account for duration buffs and/or Fear of Death, it would be subject to reductions from stuff like lemongrass, and in team fights it would be cleansed all the time.
Also, against some classes you really want a non-condition stun (zerker stance, diamond skin, resistance).
Bottom line: less reliable and shorter cc for some Terror ticks? No thx.

bile.7560:

It’s not even debatable minion manner by far, it can beat any class one on one while staying on the point.

…except for eles with their aoe burning, mesmer with moa, engi with moa and nades, rampage warriors, just to name a few. I’d argue that MMs aren’t even the strongest in a necro vs necro duel.

nearlight.3064:

Cele signet necro is the best 1v1 build for the class hands down.

Imo cele signets is just the laziest way to deal with boon heavy classes played by mediocre players.
Also, a build without Blood Magic isn’t the best at anything.