Guild Wars 2

Axl.8924:

The problem isn’t epi, its condi stacks.Limit condi stacks and buff epi.

There is a stack limit. It’s 25.

Coffietire.2783:

The conditions that spread on targets is determined by the conditions on the parent target at the time the projectiles hit, not when the skill is finished casting.

This means that now, you can cast epidemic in anticipation for a condition bomb instead of when the conditions are already on the parent target. This means that if used well, the change actually solves the age old problem of epidemic, enemies getting condition bombed and dieing before epidemic is done casting.

That’s not really better than before.

Your target is now more likely to die before Epidemic can spread because it takes longer until the projectiles hit.
So having to factor in this extra delay when anticipating the best moment to use Epidemic definitely makes it more difficult.

But imo the change to Epidemic was a good one. There’s now counterplay in PvP and WvW, but in return you get a higher range. And since Epidemic is mainly used in PvE that means in most cases you’ll have a more effective utility.

DeceiverX.8361:

There are a number of other engage patterns which were effectively removed as well, such as Charge -> Grasp into enemy stunbreak -> CttB/GS1/2 to their second major stunbreak cooldown -> Charge back into their disengage/reset attempt -> (Fear -> Scythe into CC lock or Exit shroud a second time -> swap -> nuke via Axe 2 to also proc CtD at 20% extra damage which would auto-down most thieves running ToTC/Trickery).

DeceiverX.8361:

Would love to know a breakdown on why any kind of rotation under any circumstance without context would “never have worked against anyone decent.”

Okay, I won’t need to make a breakdown, just a simple observation:
Your opponent in this case only reacts to you by burning 2 stunbreaks und then tries to run away which apparently he also fails to do because you charge and stun him again. And then you say thieves get auto-downed by this. Which I’m even more surprised to read since you play thief yourself, because a thief could simply use Shadowstep und circumvent this entire skill rotation from the start.
Not to mention that whoever you’re fighting are doing zero counter pressure.
So yeah, you might as well have described a dps rotation vs a training golem. Absolutely pointless.

DeceiverX.8361:

Hey guys, apparently the only weapon and only way to have a necromancer ever kill anyone ever regardless of skill level is to just “use staff,” whatever that means.

…
[you] have just dismissed peoples’ arguments because they’re bad players for having a different opinion on a build

Really, again…? -_-
This is the fifth and sixth time now.
Maybe you should do some exercises in reading comprehension.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t run a PvE build; Marauder amulet in sPvP… and in WvW I’m tankier than anyone in Marauder

Oh ok, so it’s a PvE build with tanky-ish stats, my bad.

DeceiverX.8361:

Again, you fail to understand you can be applied immob/cripple/chill while already in shroud, and the new SoS does literally nothing to help you.

No, I do understand that. But what you fail to understand is that cripple/chill + 25% is slower than cripple/chill + swiftness.
“But swiftness can be removed…” Yeah, sometimes that happens, but most of the time it doesn’t AND you get a cleanse. So the new version of the trait is better.

DeceiverX.8361:

And you’re just using irrelevant factoids about the build with miscellaneous and out-of-context quotes like the following:

“from a defensive standpoint, [Power reaper is(n’t) much more shroud-heavy]”

No duh. It uses shroud for both its offensive and defensive capabilities.

Let me put this back into context for you.

You said the old Speed of Shadows was better for offense (because movement speed for melee range) and defense (-3 sec cd).

I and others have debunked both of those claims several times already with detailed explenations, but for some reason you choose to not only ignore those but also say that I’m not “capable of elaborating” and that I only “dismiss with no basis of argument”.

Again, I’m not sure if you have genuine trouble with reading comprehension or if you’re being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

Anyway, the trait. You then say that the change to SoS didn’t hit core builds as hard as reapers. So I asked why you would make that distinction. And after you replied to that I said: in regards to defense (the -3 secs cd) it doesn’t matter if you play core or reaper.

DeceiverX.8361:

Even if I transferred to EU to fight you, there’d be no sense in doing it since if trashed you, you’d argue that my point is moot having won so all must be fine, and if I lost, there would be no definitive way to prove my point because the old traits are no longer available for use to demonstrate why I’m right.

Our initial incentive for a duel was to test staff vs non-staff, so it shouldn’t matter what the trait is like now.
And btw, I’d have no problem admitting defeat but it’s interesting that you just tried to build yourself a little loophole in case you lost.

flow.6043:

And please don’t say it’s because DS skills have a higher range.

DeceiverX.8361:

movespeed allows for the melee shroud skills to land much more consistently

Bruh.

DeceiverX.8361:

It also give big consistency against other necromancers, which as I mentioned, could not corrupt the movespeed, either

Yeah… no. A few problems here:

• Necros are the slowest class there is. If there’s one matchup you don’t need movement speed at all, it’s against another necro.

• With all the movement imparing conditions another necro can inflict on you, one corrupted swiftness hardly makes a difference.

• I’ve said this many times already but you seem to ignore it: removing chilled is WAAAAY better in terms of both movement speed and cd management.

DeceiverX.8361:

which meant Relentless Pursuit could quickly remove any of the short-term cripples/chills otherwise applied to easily catch up.

You know what’s even better than this trait? An actual cleanse, like the new version of Speed of Shadows.

On the upside, gz on being the only person in game to actually use Relentless Persuit!

DeceiverX.8361:

This also means the CDR on shroud is a pretty substantive buff to sustain,

We’ve been over this.
Not just I but others have said so as well by now: Consistently reducing your real hp’s exposure to damage by 3 seconds in actual fights is wishful thinking. Also, cleansing chilled will easily make a bigger difference, not just for your Shroud cd but all of your cds.

DeceiverX.8361:

because unlike core necro, a damage-oriented power reaper lacks one of the two major sustain lines (DM/BM) to keep itself healthy out of shroud.

Oh, just one of them?
I thought your damage-oriented reaper was Spite/SR/Reaper? Or is the “aggressive” power reaper a dps upgrade to just “damage-oriented”?

Anyway, Death Magic is not a sustain line, it’s pure garbage.
So that leaves Blood Magic, which btw works through Shroud so not sure if “keep yourself healthy out of Shroud” is the right way to describe it.
And you know, there’s Blighter’s Boon and Augury of Death, but you rather take Persuit and Onslaught.
Please, ask yourself honestly, are the +3 secs Shroud cooldown really the one thing that ruined your sustain, or was it unnecessarily bad to begin with?

Also, core necros can go Spite/Curses/SR and reapers can pick DM or BM. So your entire argument here has nothing to do with core vs reaper.

DeceiverX.8361:

There are a number of other engage patterns which were effectively removed as well…

What you’ve described up there never worked against decent opponents anyway, so no big deal.

DeceiverX.8361:

Needless to say, the staff is too slow and the range intent of it does not synergize well with a reaper built to play aggressively.

Disagree. And also, we clearly have a different understanding of the word “aggressive”.
For you it seems to mean that you can use a PvE build on bad players. But I see it more like, you die because you can’t defend against anything, especially not against me when I use a staff.

DeceiverX.8361:

Then you have all of the previous arguments made, such as how being forced into taking the signets trait locks you out from being able to swap into match-dependent utilities like NCSY without taking huge hits to mobility and damage from also losing Close to Death.

I’ve already addressed this.

You are litterally the only person who would even think about this absurd constellation of traits and utilities just to substitute an old function of a trait that is now better for what you’re trying to achieve anyway.

I really don’t wan’t to feed your delusion about how great those 25% were, but you do realize there are alternatives to that insane signet combo, right? Like Lynx or Traveler runes, for example.

Anyway, your only answers to my question were “Power reaper is much more shroud-heavy…”, which, from a defensive standpoint, it isn’t – and “melee range”, which I asked you not to say. And I could elaborate why, but at this point I doubt it would help you.

DeceiverX.8361:

and continued to talk exclusively about the reaper without much ambiguity.

I never talked about core necro. Core necro had equal use for both traits depending on environment/build/purpose and nowhere did I dispute this nor did anyone bring this up.

I know you only brought it up now, that’s why I’m asking. I’m genuinely interested why you think the old version of Speed of Shadows was more useful for reapers than core builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sure, but I don’t think anyone who’s voiced their issues with this trait change has been talking about core necro. I’m rather indifferent because both traits can be decent enough on core depending on build choice and environment/purpose, but power reaper was affected massively by this change in what can only be described as in a very negative way.

Help me understand this, please.

Your original complaint about the change was less defense with a higher Shroud cooldown and that +25% movement speed in Shroud is better than getting swiftness and removing immob/chilled/cripple.
Are you saying that core necros don’t rely on Shroud for defense as much as Reapers? Or that movement speed in Death Shroud is somehow less important? And please don’t say it’s because DS skills have a higher range.

Crinn.7864:

flow.6043:

I have argued my position just like everyone else here.

Not really, you just repeatedly stated “everyone not using a staff is bad because I said so”

I like how you put this in quotes as if that’s something I actually said.
And btw if you had actually read my posts you’d know I’ve already denied that specific accusation several times.

Crinn.7864:

You never actually tried to justify that ridiculous opinion.

Umm… yes, I did. First page.
You really didn’t read my posts, did you?

ZeftheWicked.3076:

If i’m being captain obvious then soz

It has been this way since July 2013.

Anet tried to fix a bug that made necros only have 50% downstate hp, and since in some pre-release version of the game Death Shroud used to be the necro’s downstate this fix somehow caused our life force pool to be doubled. Or so we thought at first, because at that time there was no actual number on the lf bar, which was introduced 2 months later. Then one number didn’t match the other, so calling it a 50% damage reduction or a hidden double lf value basically had the same bottom line. However, it is more likely that it’s a damage reduction bug because damage that overflows to our regular hp actually substracts the correct amount from our life force pool.

This should be common knowledge for everyone who’s been playing since then and occasionally checked the forums.

Duuuuude. First you trash Eremite’s build but then you use action cam? That’s a worse handicap than a bad build.

Dadnir.5038:

You’re saying that all necro should use 1 specific weapon and 1 specific trait otherwise they are worthless.

I didn’t say worthless, I said worse than it could be.

Also, you misunderstood. I’m just advertising the staff, I don’t care about Soul Marks or Soul Reaping. But when people complain about Speed of Shadows it means they weren’t using Soul Marks and that would be an indication that they don’t use a staff.

Dadnir.5038:

Not even giving any place for a spec of originality by assuming (falsely) that your opinion is the best opinion and every single player that say it’s not is wrong.

Spec of originality? k.

I have argued my position just like everyone else here. And now you think I’m arrogant or stubborn when you couldn’t convince me?

Again, it’s a pity you’re all on NA…

Svarty.8019:

Emapudapus.1307:

Because if you are in shroud too much, you cant do what you are suppose to do, or at least not as efficiently.

Why are people presuming Shroud builds are Power? It’s simply not the case. Does nobody play WvW at all here?

Also, who are you to judge what is or isn’t “too much” or indeed “what you are suppose[sic] to do”?

What he meant to say was: Shroud skills have cooldowns, and in between those cooldowns you shouldn’t camp Shroud but use your other weapon and utility skills as well, regardless of what type of build you’re using.

Svarty.8019:

The trouble is the 3s cooldown on Shroud which was completely removed. That is enormous. It’s a nerf of such gargantuan proportions, I can’t believe they prioritised discussing Vital Persistence over it.

The Reaper with Soul Reaping trait combination was great and gave the Reaper a reasonable chance against other classes in WvW. Sadly, this huge Speed of Shadows nerf really weakens the entire class from top to bottom without any way to work around it.

Ironic.

First you accuse others of presuming there are only power builds and that they don’t play WvW.
But then you state that the change to Speed of Shadows is such a big nerf that the entire class is now trash.

Has it ever occured to you that people have run builds in WvW or PvP that don’t use Speed of Shadows, or Soul Reaping at all for that matter?

Also, for the 10000th time, if you were using Speed of Shadows in any PvP environment before the change you were not using Soul Marks and/or a staff.
That’s your real problem, l2build.

Murdock.6547:

In terms of survivability you can do MUCH better on necro.

Could you elaborate on that?
He already has Blighter’s Boon, Vamp traits, all defensive Soul Reaping traits except for Death Perception, a knight amulet and Melandru runes. I know you theoretically could improve survivability here and there a little, but “MUCH better”, really?

KrHome.1920:

In EU the Top 250 starts at 1600 at the moment and I am pretty sure no one of these 250 players can afford to run Bunker Reaper.

The mmr range of the top 250 doesn’t mean anything. There are a lot of players with higher mmr that aren’t ranked because they haven’t played enough games.

Brujeria.7536:

The problem is, the reduced shroud cooldown is what made A) certain traits 30% better

I know what you mean but that’s not how you calculate the uptime of on-Shroud effects with 7 vs 10 seconds cooldown.
Also, it implies that you don’t use Shroud at all, which is even more unrealistic than consistently spending only 7 or 10 seconds out of Shroud.

Brujeria.7536:

you had to make a decision: am i able to survive 7 seconds before i can enter again, do i have the cooldowns? Now you just don’t have that choice.

Yes, you do, but it’s 10 sec now.

And again, if we’re talking about PvP or WvW it should’ve been 10 seconds all along. Because if not you were either not using a staff, or you were but you didn’t have Soul Marks. Either way, that’s a worse build than it could’ve been.

DeceiverX.8361:

I think OH dagger is just as good in a majority of settings. The higher cooldowns and ease-of-dodging marks (which have longer cast times, more obvious tells, etc.) isn’t worth the tradeoff.

Lower cooldowns, yes, except maybe when you precast marks. Everything else, no.

All marks are cast with the same animation except for Reaper’s Mark. There is no tell for where a necro is going to place them, you don’t even have to face the direction you’re casting them. There is no travel time like for Deathly Swarm’s projectile, which is therefore a lot more readable and dodgable the further you stand away from the necro. And even in melee range it makes a huge difference whether you instantly cleanse with the Putrid Mark hit or have to wait for the dagger projectile to bounce 3 times.
Enfeebling Blood has a similarly big animation which takes about 3 hours until it actually lands, not to mention that an aoe stun is clearly more useful in PvP than 2 stacks of bleeding and weakness.
And last but not least: the range. Range indicators for aoe skills always refer to the center. So the center of marks can be placed at 1200, add 240 for the radius and another 60 for the actual hit when triggered. Also, you can move away during the cast time so that gives you even more distance. Absolutely no contest compared to dagger.

DeceiverX.8361:

movespeed which cannot be corrupted, stripped, stolen or removed in any way, shape, or form were what made the trait actually worth taking.

…

CtD gets overridden by the Signets of Suffering trait necessary in conjunction with SotL for the movespeed bonus. … This occupies a trait slot replacing CtD as well as a utility slot

Ok I unterstand what you mean now.

Counter argument: not only would the opportunity cost for the signet be way too high – like you said yourself – but you are totally overestimating the value of those 25% movement speed.
Obvious sulution: don’t use the signet, stay with CtD, get used to getting swiftness with SoS. And yes, it can be corrupted or stripped, but that is actually less likely than having some movement imparing condition on you which would get cleansed with the new version of the trait. So while you used to slow-mo crawl through a fight with cripple and/or chilled (but with +25%!!) the new trait will let you just walk away without those condis.
And i don’t want to elaborate too much at this point, but cleansing has even more value in context of removing cover conditions and cd managment without chilled.

It’s obviously better than before. And there is no need to change your utilities or whatever to compensate for anything. So get over it and get used to it.

DeceiverX.8361:

So Basically, we’re seeing underpowered builds already nerfed because reasons and that it doesn’t matter, and anyone who plays without a staff is bad.

No, you get a buff to a trait that was thus far only used by builds that weren’t as good as they could’ve been because they didn’t have a staff, regardless of the player’s skill.

DeceiverX.8361:

because Axe sucked. Axe got buffed and is one of the top weapons necro has.

Fun fact – coming from someone who was using an axe before it was cool – throughout the many little buffs the axe got over the years, it was only deemed good by the masses after a simple damage buff. Not after the range increase, not after corruption was added to Unholy Feast, not after the significant cast time and cd reductions, non of the changes that actually mattered for PvP helped the axe’s popularity.

So the way you said it makes it seem like there was a single patch that turned the axe from terrible to awesome over night.

DeceiverX.8361:

A/D brings everything staff has…

See, what you say about the axe and then suggesting that off-hand dagger is better than Putrid and Reaper’s Mark… I just can’t take you seriously like this. You obviously don’t know your necro weapon skills.

DeceiverX.8361:

… and GS is the best melee option that necromancer has when in good hands.

For PvE, yes.

DeceiverX.8361:

Would love to see your super-powerful staff power build.

Not “my” staff build, but pick literally any build that doesn’t use a staff, replace GS or whatever with a staff and the staff version of it will straight up beat it.

It’s a shame you’re all on NA otherwise I’d just show you in game.

DeceiverX.8361:

Spinal shivers on three boons and a power build meant to actually kill things hits 4-5k easily on targets with three boons, which is nearly everyone these days. CtD being overriden by SotL for the necessary 25% mobility to keep power shroud builds relevant immediately bumps the burst of this proc alone by 1k damage on its hit and all subsequent hits by a substantial margin. On a target below half, this usually means 1-1.5k damage lost per AA hit in shroud. There really isn’t much math needed here. This is common knowledge to people who actually play an aggressive power reaper.

I’m more confused than before.

CtD means Close to Death and SotL means Signet of the Locust, yes?

So CtD, a trait, gets overridden by a signet??
And you need the 25% mobility of the signet for a Shroud build when signet’s passives don’t even work in Shroud?
Plus, you’re suggesting that you wouldn’t even use the signet and just have a wasted utility slot for the sake of extra movement speed? You do realize that the new Speed of Shadows gives you swiftness in addition to removing all movement imparing conditions, so in that regard it’s way superior to the old version of the trait. Also, you probably use a warhorn too, right?

Anyway…

DeceiverX.8361:

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well…

This was your original statement. I still don’t get what you mean by getting equal effects or what any of the Spite traits have to do with the change to Speed of Shadows.

Crinn.7864:

…

All your assumptions about what a condi build can or can’t do compared to a power build seem to be contingent on a very specific trait and utility setup that has nothing to do with the actual build type.

KrHome.1920:

In a power build staff is only good in a coordinated team for aoe cc purposes while others do the damage.

Invalid argument. Other weapons have cc as well.
And have you ever heard any team call out a necro’s mark skills to coordinate with others?

KrHome.1920:

When you are on your own, it’s a wasted weapon slot.

Blasphemy!
Hand in your necro card on your way out pls.

KrHome.1920:

Soul Marks LF gen is a joke compared to the typical power reaper weapons (dagger, axe, GS, warhorn, focus).

It’s not a joke at all. But even without Soul Marks staff has Necrotic Grasp, and Necrotic Grasp has by far the highest lf regen potential of all our skills.

KrHome.1920:

And staff unblockables… useless besides the aoe cc potential, because marks don’t deal any significant power damage. Great, you can interrupt blocks… just to deal zero damage for the next 10 seconds.

Unblockable chill, interrupt and condi transfers are useless? k
Btw, being unable to follow up with damage after interrupting someone is either a build or l2p problem, not the staff’s fault.

KrHome.1920:

Speed of Shadows: Non-team-oriented power peapers spend a lot of time in melee. They benefit more of the shorter shroud CD than a condi build, that has insane pressure from a distance, more armor and can kite better due to condi and soft-cc overload.

What’s a non-team-oriented reaper?
Anyway, I and others have said it many times already, but regarding cooldowns a chill cleanse is better than just 3 sec on Shroud only.
Also, like Crinn, your conception of how a condi build is supposed to be played differently than a power build just isn’t true. All the pros and cons you’ve listed are entirely adjustable with traits and utility skills for both build types.

First of all, does your emphasis on “power necro” mean you would agree the staff is a good choice for condition builds? And if yes, why? Because this way your poison and bleeding ticks a little higher?

The damage you get from staff really is a secondary benefit.
What matters more in PvP is the range, the mark mechanics, the aoe, the cc, the unblockablity if traited, the life force regeneration (even without Soul Marks) and a few other things to a lesser degree. It’s a combination that is simply not available on other weapon sets.

I checked out the build you are using on your yt channel and I don’t doubt that you are successful with it, especially now after the Soul Eater buff. But a build with a staff would still be stronger overall.

DeceiverX.8361:

flow.6043:

…

Depends heavily on chosen builds. My aggressive power reaper gains nothing from Soul Marks since it doesn’t have any use for staff

You’re just confirming my point.

Your build is weaker than any build that uses a staff because they use a staff and you don’t.
The problem isn’t how the change affected your build but that you shoudn’t have run that build in the first place.

DeceiverX.8361:

The change in cooldowns is nearly a 50% increase in windows of opportunity for your opponents versus before.

I know you’re trying to say that 3 is almost 50% of 7.
But I call bs if you try to argue that in every fight you ever had you spent all time in Shroud except for the occasional 7 seconds (and not more) to generate life force.

DeceiverX.8361:

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well, so just to have the same level of offensive pressure as before, you need to sacrifice a trait, a utility, have 50% increased windows of vulnerability, lose a ~1k burst from a modified spinal shivers, and have lower damage in general.

I don’t understand what you mean here. Maybe post some build calc links.

DeceiverX.8361:

Further your point only holds in sPvP. WvW soul mark reapers are absolutely demolished compared to SoS ones from the faster pace of combat.

Wrong.

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

I’m using this quote but my answer to it is supposed to address everyone who is bothered by the change to Speed of Shadows:

The primary cause of death for those who think they got nerfed by having 3 more seconds on their Shroud cooldown is the fact that they don’t use a staff in PvP and therefore don’t need Soul Marks (which imo is the only reason one should pick Soul Reaping for PvP at all).

Lalainnia.3598:

Immunity is the only true safe stomp in the game everything else has a counter even if its insanely small and necros have no immunity skills.

Like I said above, even invuln stomps can be countered. Either by stealthing or simply moving away. So by that logic there is no true safe stomp at all.

Just to clarify, “safe” depends on the situation. But in general it means you get to stomp someone with your first stomp attempt.
So yes, necros have several ways to safe stomp. Some less reliable than others, but still.

Zoltreez.6435:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

reaper shroud has access to stability

in a fight thats not a safe stomp… because you alrleady prety much used it and its on some form of CD or NOT but will be removed while trying to use your slow ass stomp….

Wtf kind of argument is that?

How is the chance of one of our skills being on cooldown make it any less likely to be used on downed players than skills of other classes?

And are you really saying that stability in general is not a safe stomp because it might be removed?

Zoltreez.6435:

Stealth is a safe stomp

Off the top of my head I can think of at least 7 skills on necro alone that would interrupt a stealth stomp. And you think stealth is safer than stability??

Zoltreez.6435:

immunity is a safe stomp

Ok… unless you are trying to stomp an ele or mesmer or thief. Or your stomp target gets moved by someone else. Or they get stealthed by an ally.

Zoltreez.6435:

engies machine is prety much a safe stomp

The Function Gyro?
You mean because the gyro gets stability when you trait Final Salvo? Oh wait, I forgot, stability doesn’t count.

Zoltreez.6435:

Super speed is a safe stomp…..

What?

Are you sure that’s enough?
Maybe range: entire map, and mark radius 2k? Also, don’t want to be forced to trait for hitting through invulns and dodges so that should be baselined.
As for the rest. Way too complicated. Just make every skill one-shot enemies and give invulnerability to allies for 1 hour.

Tiresias.6473:

You have confused “feedback” with “negativity”.

Nobody is here making unsubstantiated claims. All the people running Reaper Shroud builds were legitimately surprised by the heavy-handed nerfs the spec received.

All the buffs you mentioned doesn’t really apply to this one spec. Compensation isn’t compensation if it doesn’t counterweight the negative changes.

I’ve already argued why those “negative changes” are really buffs.
Maybe you should link that build because I have no idea in what context those nerfs could be perceived as anywhere near heavy-handed.

Lordrosicky.5813:

How can you run unholy santurary without VP?

Exactly like before the patch. You don’t.

Lord Velar.1509:

You didn’t play yesterday did you

I co main a condi thief and ive been told multiple times over that the build for it is max cancer

I already normally target necros just because

Yesterday there wasn’t 1 necros I faced that could handle me at all

What used to be a long drawn out but fun fight would end in less than 10 secs

So while you question what everyone was whining about, I question if you even pvp

I point out that the patch for necro was mostly buffs and your counter argument to that is that I didn’t run into some condi thief build yesterday? And based on that you question if I PvP at all?
k

Zefrost.3425:

I practically never used that trait and could give less of a kitten about it. I’ve never even really used soul reaping much after like 2014 as I find the whole line to be lacklustre. Any time I have ran soul reaping I never even noticed vital persistence. In WvW/PvP that trait was never needed in any scenario.

I agree.

I get that 7 sec Shroud cooldown makes certain PvE dps rotations more optimal, but from a PvP perspective: you can’t use Shroud immediately after it’s off cd every time anyway, also, if you use a staff Soul Marks is a no-brainer.

Ravezaar.4951:

for me and many that relied on 7sec Speed of Shadows isnt a fkng buff

You relied on it? How?
Are you one of the very few necros who don’t use a staff in PvP?

Aktium.9506:

flow.6043:

Speed of Shadows. Awesome buff. Up to now it was basically the awkward trait you’d have to pick if you didn’t use a staff, but now it’s a viable alternative regardless.

Come on man, I know you know better than this. Soft CC removal + Swiftness in exchange for losing the reduced Shroud cooldown is a bad trade off in most scenarios.

Actually, whenever you face a necro and/or ele there’s a lot of chill being cast constantly. And, as you know, chilled doesn’t just slow you down but also all your cooldowns. So in those fights cleansing chilled on Shroud entry is rather likely to save you more total cooldown time than you’d get from the occasional 3 secs on Shroud.
Also, flashing Shroud for swiftness should come in handy every now and then, which btw is a little better than the old 25% in Shroud only.

The negativity here and on the PvP forum blows my mind.
This patch was one of the best we’ve had in a very long time.

First of all, Vital Persistence:

I know this trait was popular and it has been for years, but for all the wrong reasons. By far its best feature was the 20% cooldown reduction for Shroud skills. The -2% decay was a weak crutch for People who don’t know how to manage their life force.
So now that 3% has been baselined and if you’d still want to take VP you’re basically trading 1% decay for a huge chunk of hp and lf.
This could not be a more obvious buff!

Spiteful Spirit:

One extra boon corruption. Massive buff, thank you.
Retaliation is back! Ooowmahgerd, I thought they removed it on purpose. Many people might not have taken notice of it before, but the damage you get from just a few seconds of retal in team fights is easily in the thousands. Again, massive buff.

Spiteful Renewal:

Has anyone checked if this works with Consume Conditions (I didn’t get to play yet), like does it consume the self applied vulnerability after the cast?
This change is imo really the only downside to this patch. If you’ve been using Bitter Chill all this time instead you were missing out. This was the true PvP trait, and even if it was unpredictable and the healing would get blocked by Shroud, it was still a 5 sec cd cleanse and heal.
Anyway, probably a nerf overall but a buff to control, so a positiv change.

Dagger skills unsplit for all modes. Buff.

Spectral Skills. Buff.

Soul Eater. Buff.

Signets. Depends on how you were using them, but imo positiv change overall.

Speed of Shadows. Awesome buff. Up to now it was basically the awkward trait you’d have to pick if you didn’t use a staff, but now it’s a viable alternative regardless.

Ritual of Life. BUUUFFFFF.
If you drop a regular WoB and then rez someone, you get 84% without actually rezzing yourself.

Life from Death. Buuuufffff.

Vamp Rituals. Like this trait wasn’t already incredible. Awesome buff, thank you.

So again… what is everyone whining about??

I checked patch notes of almost all of 2015, didn’t find anything.

So the message is basically: life force can mitigate damage?

Cool, thanks. But the title and wall of text in the first post certainly imply more.

How did you test this?

I tried it with some conditions i got from npcs in PvE, and I tried it with self inflicted corruption condis in both PvE and HotM. Spectral Armor did nothing.

Panda.1967:

they’ve been using the transferor’s stats for more than a couple years now.

Wrong.

Also, this change was never mentioned in any patch notes, so your presumtion about the intention behind it is a guess at best, epsecially since your timing is off by at least 3 years.
For all we know it might as well have been an unintetional change.

Also, the stack cap used to be 25.

Oh look, it’s our monthly “pls fix my twitchy fingers by nerfing the class”-thread.

Just got around to testing it again.
I was wrong. The transfer caster’s stats are used.
This must’ve been changed somewhen during the past year, because it was definitely different before.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

For condition transfers, they already do use the original caster’s stats. The only thing that changes with the condition stacks is who they are on when they are transferred. Remaining duration and damage don’t change.

Correct.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Boon stealing, I’m less certain on. I think it already operates on the same principle, but I could be mistaken.

It’s the same.

Hot Boy.7138:

I use arcane thievery. It uses my own stats when I transfer conditions back to the caster. Same with boon steal. The duration isn’t unchanged.

I haven’t tested Arcane Thievery specifically, but if you’re right this would be an exception to the rule.

The skill would have to delete the old and create a new set of condis and boons with the mesmer’s stats. Seems unlikely to me considering all other transfer skills just move them to a different target.

Thread summary:

Necro’s axe and dagger skills require facing their targets.

(I assume that’s what huluobo meant? Of course that doesn’t apply to all axe and dagger skills, but anyway…)

Therefore those skills are the “stupidest” in game.
Also, necro is the worst.
Also, necros can’t beat thieves.
Also, necros can’t 1v1 anyone at all.
Also, playing PvP with necro is impossible.

And to back up those claims huluobo posted a screenshot of him having played a total of 1144 (!!!) games in league season 5 and placing mid gold with 1410 mmr.

Clearly huluobo’s stats represent every necro in the game.
If anyone made it higher than gold with a necro despite those horrible weapon skills they got lucky or carried.
So back off arena dogs, we got a solid case here!

Kurama.6275:

I started doing pvp for the first time in a LONG time and I was noticed that the “Meta” condi builds all seem to run the Curses trait line but a Carrion amulet… can some one explain why?

Carrion currently has the best defensive stats of all available amulets for condition builds. That’s the only reason, really.

Silv.9207:

more Toughness (that in a Power meta is always good to survive a little better

I don’t want to start another vitality vs toughness debate. But even against direct damage only (which never happens in PvP anyway) vitality is better than toughness, especially without Blood Magic or Blighter’s Boon like the build on metabattle.

Kurama.6275:

Is Path of Corruption SO good that you can basically ignore the whole rest of the traitline?

Path of Corruption is good, but Plague Sending and Weakening Shroud are much bigger assets.

Kurama.6275:

The whole curses trait line is essentially based on “on crit” effects, and with Carrion stats you have a whole 4% crit chance. even with fury thats 24% crit.

Consider this: Barbed Precision, Weakening Shroud and Plague Sending are your crit procs.
The only trait that really loses effectiveness with a low crit amulet is Barbed Precision because there’s no cooldown.
The other two, however, will probably just be a little delayed instead of getting an instant proc off cd. And depending on the skills used this might not even matter. For example, even if your build doesn’t have Death Perception, Soul Spiral’s 12 hits on several targets in a team fight will proc those traits pretty much immediately.

Kurama.6275:

Why not run like a deadshot amulet? Does the power on Carrion make up for the lack of crit chance on a condi build?

In a direct damage comparison, yes. Power without precision does more damage than precision without power.

bluri.2653:

This is why I can’t stand forums because the level of discussion here is so low it’s unbearable.

Oh, the irony…

bluri.2653:

Delusional at it’s finest. You can keep saying necro-ele is a blank statement but on paper there’s not a single 2v2 that will win this. Just look at the tournament that was played no 2v2 would beat this.

Weren’t you the one that also said you beat me in 1v1s as a necro? I mean this gets fokken more hilarious reading what you write

What do I not understand about a necro? The traits and builds? Sure I’ll admit that, the role however is a completely different thing or where it’s strengths are at I’d say I know more then you do because I actually play tournaments and have competed in the past with and versus necros. I think it’s reversed since you are telling me the 2v2 isn’t the strongest in the game LOL. I remember seeing you as a core necro running like a headless chicken in the games not knowing what to do or where to move.

And not to mention that you have necros here saying they don’t even kill druids in 1v1s, they did so even pre astral nerf, this tells me the level of 90% of you are below average.

…

This was last response from me regarding this topic, but let’s all sit here and pretend how weak necro are and nec/ele is just god awful, the only problem nec/ele suffers from is the speed of rotation, not the fighting capabilities because they are through the roof, anyone saying anything else is beyond help.

At first I was worried that you didn’t recognize me, but then you perfectly described my signature headless chicken playstyle. A style that is very well suited to beat you in 1v1s, I might add. So yes, that’s me, indeed!

Anyway, I’m glad you won’t be responding anymore because your opinion on necro is irrelevant.
I will, however, still address what you said because I’m concerned that some people might read your post and be misguided to believe that you being you holds any value in this discussion.

So first of all, no one said ele-necro is bad or awful. But I could easily argue that it’s not the single best duo in game for every situation and matchup.
Regardless, there are a ton of problems with the necro class that should be addressed, some of which bugs that date back to the 2012 release, some of which obvious design flaws and a lot of issues that – if fixed – wouldn’t even affect any form of team fight at all.
For example, a starting amount of life force in PvP, healing through Shroud or the 50% damage reduction in Shroud.
There’s a long list of basic things like this that you would know about if you knew anything about necro, but you don’t. You just take a big sip of your ignorance and arrogance smoothie and regurgitate a splash of “naaaah it’s fine, just ele-up and stop crying” on threads like this.

And by the way, you lecturing me on necro is like someone telling you how to play thief – delusional at its finest.

Dirame.8521:

That said though, the effectiveness of Posi and his Ele friend(having fought both of them recently) speaks more to their knowledge of the game and how they coordinate themselves than it does the power of the necro/ele combo.

I can assure you that a good Warrior and Necro combo could win 2v2s against a Posi-level necro-ele synergy because I’ve seen it and executed it myself, same with a mesmer/necro or mesmer/Ele. We’re overvalueing the class in this case rather than the player.

I agree, well said.

bluri.2653:

flow.6043:

bluri.2653:

lmao you seriously need to get better. Ele/Nec is prolly second strongest duo in spvp atm. As much as i think posi is mental check his youtube that guy plays vanilla nec SOLO and does wonders with it. When he duo with ele he easily reaches top20 in EU

Top 20 can be easily reached with any duo.
Also, as opposed to other classes, the necro elite spec is only an upgrade in PvE, but in PvP it’s really a sidegrade. So doing well with a core necro isn’t a big deal either.

Now here’s the irony in your post:
You’re basically saying the issue is l2p instead of with the class, and regarding almost every necro thread on this forum I would agree with you.
But the fact that you mention Posi as your benchmark for how well necro could be played does reflects the underdog-ness of the class.
I’m not saying Posi is bad, but think about how many more good players you could name that main other classes. And how many of those you’d consider to be a more valuable team asset.

Anyway, the good ol’ “ele – necro duo” argument is about as lame and ignorant as all the complaints about how weak necros are.

Ok, show me. Get top20 at end of season. Why does it reflect the underdog-ness of the class? Posi barely plays this game and hasn’t for months and streams some core necro and absolutely demolishes people because he actually can play. Also the reason I use him as benchmark is because he actually has footage of him playing which no other necro has.

How is this argument lame? That nec-ele duo is one of the best duos. And also the best 2v2 in the game?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj-XQizU4oBtCc4yBck5emA/videos
https://www.twitch.tv/posisn/videos/all

I appreciate your not at all condescending tone.
And thanks for linking Posi’s twitch and yt. Wouldn’t have found it without you.

So here’s the deal.
I’ve watched your stream a lot. It’s great content even for non-thief players.
However, whenever you talk about necro it’s very obvious that you don’t know enough about the class to contribute to a discussions about its balance in any way that should be taken seriously.
I don’t mean this as an insult, you can’t know everything after all.
I’m just stating a fact. You don’t understand necro.

So when you come on a thread like this and say stuff like: ele-necro is the best duo, so necro is fine! Just look at Posi!!!
Just… pls no.

There are issues that should be addressed. Far less than all the complaints on the forum would suggest. And far more in some areas that don’t get complained about enough.
To sweep all of that under the rug with a necro-ele-duo blanket statement is, like I said, lame and ignorant.

bluri.2653:

lmao you seriously need to get better. Ele/Nec is prolly second strongest duo in spvp atm. As much as i think posi is mental check his youtube that guy plays vanilla nec SOLO and does wonders with it. When he duo with ele he easily reaches top20 in EU

Top 20 can be easily reached with any duo.
Also, as opposed to other classes, the necro elite spec is only an upgrade in PvE, but in PvP it’s really a sidegrade. So doing well with a core necro isn’t a big deal either.

Now here’s the irony in your post:
You’re basically saying the issue is l2p instead of with the class, and regarding almost every necro thread on this forum I would agree with you.
But the fact that you mention Posi as your benchmark for how well necro could be played does reflects the underdog-ness of the class.
I’m not saying Posi is bad, but think about how many more good players you could name that main other classes. And how many of those you’d consider to be a more valuable team asset.

Anyway, the good ol’ “ele – necro duo” argument is about as lame and ignorant as all the complaints about how weak necros are.

mighty meak.6387:

and i heal and i heal and i heal moar
but w t f
i am alone
no one helps no loves
1vall
i die no win

huluobo.7036:

Die Die Die no skill no score
Lose more than win
F1 has a fart

I see you’ve been trained by the master.

Ramoth.9064:

We know necromancers characteristically are probably the slowest class in game in terms of movement. That kind of rules them out for any sort of +1 roaming build in SPvP.

I disagree.

If you see an opportunity to +1, just do it.
Of course you need more time to get there than a thief but that doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t rotate to outnumber certain fights. In fact, necros with their corrupts can end some fights a lot faster than all other classes.

As for the “get as much mobility skills/traits/runes/… as possible”: complete waste.
You’re sacrificing your strength in actual combat just so you can save a few seconds. Basically, you try to get into fights faster which you’re more likely to lose because of that.

KrHome.1920:

Soul Reaping traits are mandatory for 7 second shroud CD

I see a lot of people run Speed of Shadows recently. The only way this is a reasonable pick is when you don’t use a staff. However, if you do have a staff, dropping unblockable marks for -3 sec Shroud cooldown is insane.

I’m not sure anymore now that you’ve made this post, but I think it’s always been 2 stack per pulse?

You’re kinda late to the party with this one.
People started to complain immediately after the patch in febuary went live that WvW was included in the PvE side of the trait split.

Also, regarding that 7k bleed tick…

Crinn.7864:

flow.6043:

Completely wrong.
D/P has access to a lot of stealth which is among the reasons why it is the most viable PvP build for thieves.

Having stealth access and will be destroyed if revealed are not the same.

D/p daredevil doesn’t use stealth defensively to the point that reveal means anything beyond a mild inconvenience.

Moreover d/p dunks on necro so hard that a reveal on shroud #5 is irrelevant to the outcome of the matchup.

Clearly you don’t understand d/p thief.

Flumek.9043:

Afaik,
With full lifeforce, the base necro comes really close to a fair loss.

You know this is coming from someone who regularly plays a core build in PvP and WvW:
In a straight up 1v1 a core necro beats thief, it has always been like this, and the Tainted Shackles buff gives even more of an advantage.
Reapers obviously have a much harder time against them because Reaper’s Shroud can be avoided rather easily, while traits in the Reaper specialization have little to no effect on those fights because chill gets constantly removed.
Death Shroud on the other hand has a higher range on all skills, some of which are homing attacks including a gap closer. Plus you get to pick a more effective combination of core specs for this encounter.
Btw, you don’t need full life force for this or whatever. Obviously you should have enough to defend yourself against the initial basi/steal/backstab but after that you’re good if you can generate some life force during the fight.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I find it more useful against Mesmers who are trying to retreat to stealth to recover/reset than against Thieves.

True.

Yes, all untergeted skills hit stealthed targets if they are in range.

Core necro was already better at fighting thieves before the patch, so yes it is.

Crinn.7864:

Given that most thieves don’t even build around stealth post DareDevil…

Completely wrong.
D/P has access to a lot of stealth which is among the reasons why it is the most viable PvP build for thieves.

Anchoku.8142:

5. Loading nearly all of of the dps after the first couple of seconds is a huge tell that players will learn to counter.
…
If it was targetable and pulsed Signet of Spite’s active, I would like it.

Every new pulse applies the previous conditions as well, so the later pulses are actually rather similar to Signet of Spite.

The way you phrased it might imply that Plague was somehow exclusive to core builds. You could’ve just said: Plague From > Plaguelands.

Anyway… get over it. Plague was bad.
What you call panic button was really a turn-yourself-into-a-sitting-duck button.
And if that was your best way of defending against focus fire you should probably change your build.

KrHome.1920:

flow.6043:

• Infusing Terror (Reaper Shroud): This skill no longer pulses stability but instead grants 3 stacks for 6 seconds upon activating it. The active form of this skill now reduces incoming physical and condition damage by 20% for its duration.

The tooltip says 33% and I hope it is 33% as I guess the intention was to split the 40 second CD “Rise!” damage reduction to a 60 second “Rise!” and a 25 second Infusing Terror.

If this was intended, I like it (!) as I hated “Rise!” for its unreliability and I hate minions in general.

That makes sense, now that you mention it.

Rym.1469:

Trashing the idea of pulsing Stability is the hidden, yet massive, buff to Necromancers. Good to see it gone at last. If it makes our recently buffed widespread low-cooldown corruption tools too good, I won’t mind slight nerfs.

Yes, fighting warriors just got a little easier.

As for the low cd corruptions, it’s actually a double edged sword because pulsing stability could be corrupted more than once. Like, no more trapping Reapers with Infusing Terror in a Well of Corruption.

KrHome.1920:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, that 180 radius in the tooltip is an explosion centered on the foe that is below 25% health. It is not centered on you.

I know that and it does not change anything. It’s trash.

You have to cast a 1 second cast time skill at a 25% hp foe to make it "double"hit that foe which alone is bad and then also have to manage that other foes are standing around that foe in ultra low range to use the skills full potential. Most of the time this is impossible and the new mechanic of the skill a pure gimmick for lucky situations.

I like to have control over my actions.

My initial thought was that the secondary hit would corrupt as well, but turns out it’s really just some extra damage. It’s like they’ve added a super lame version of Sigil of Fire.

Even if the radius was bigger and there was no hp threshold at all, losing retaliation over this is a big nerf. Not just for its damage potential, but also for its synergy with Blighter’s Boon.

I really hope removing retal on Spiteful Spirit as well wasn’t intended, but knowing Anet, they’re probably just going to “fix” the tooltip.

Sigil of Agility and Sigil of Escape don’t trigger when entering or leaving Death Shroud.

They do work with Reaper’s Shroud. And every other sigil works with both Shrouds.

Warcry.1596:

But Epidemic has been used pretty much for the life of the game.

Yes, it has always been used in PvE.
But in PvP? I haven’t seen anyone use Epidemic in years.
In WvW, a long time ago, there used to be that small group roaming niche where people took it. But obviously it’s useless in 1v1s and almost as useless in big zerg fights. So pretty much the same here, haven’t seen a necro use Epidemic in WvW in years.

Warcry.1596:

flow.6043:

Epidemic: I wasn’t aware anyone was even using this skill in PvP or WvW anymore.

You must be new here if you didn’t know Epidemic was prevalent in the PvP game modes =/

But then you said “anymore” and it threw me off.

“Anymore” as in: not since 2013.

And if you think I’m new here, then you’re probably new here ;P