Yo flow.
The way I estimate it under perfect duel scenarios, is a rough 50/50.
Well, I disagree with that estimate, obviously.
But then, like you said, in real match – the conditions are almost always against necro
I wouldn’t say always, but regardless, Svarty in the opening post doesn’t refer to specific situations where you start your fight against thieves with any kind of disadvantage.
So I’m rather shocked how many people here simply dismiss his request for advice, like the mere attempt to improve against thieves is a pointless or impossible endeavor.
Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.
Hate to say it, but l2p…
Hate to say it, but he’s right.
Except… he isn’t!
Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.
Hate to say it, but l2p…
power or condi mesmer can 100-0 any necro …
Same with thief.
You should NOT be wining a duel against a competent thief.
…
I’m surprised to see you say this.
I won’t argue that necros are easy targets in team fights for high burst class like thieves or mesmers, or other unfavorable circumstances like starting without life force.
However, in a straight up 1v1 on even skills there’s absolute no chance a thief could have the upper hand against a necro. It’s a more even fight against mesmers, but still necros have the advantage in this matchup.
@Svarty, it seems what you need most is practice in a sterile environment like a guild arena. Lots of duel repetitions, lots feedback on your mistakes in game, rather than vague and general advice here on the forum.
Robert Gee said, before HoT launch right here on these forums, that anet will never allow axe to be good because it is ranged but does have a dodge able/avoidable projectile.
Wrong.
Here’s what he really said:
One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning.
…
Also, in the very same thread and a million times after that in others, Robert Gee’s argument was debunked by several people.
There’s simply no reason to assume that Robert didn’t read or ignored all the replys , so whatever changes they have or have not made since then are probably not as havily influenced by the ranged non-projectile nature of the axe as people tend to infer.
Lastly Axe wielding power necros still get owned by condi reapers. I mean I don’t know about anybody but I hate to get owned by the class I play.
Sounds like a challenge!
Seriously though, depends on your opponent. If you were to face me (with an axe) in some duels you’d probably lose more often than not.
If you didn’t like the axe before the patch, the new buffs probably won’t entice you to pick it up now.
However, as someone who was already using the axe, the extra damage is very noticable for once, definitely more than the usual slight tweak. And the extra corrupted boon is nice too, so I’m happy.
You’re overestimating Vital Persistence.
If vital persistence were baseline, Necromancer may not even want to spec into soul reaping, because none of the other traits in Soul Reaping are integral to being a Necromancer.
First of all, neither VP nor the entire Soul Reaping spec are mandatory for running a viable pvp build. And by far the best reason to pick Soul Reaping is Soul Marks.
VP just happens to be a popular pick because Soul Reaping is popular, not the other way around, and the only alternatives are Fear of Death (=useless) and Spectral Mastery (which imo would be a viable alternative if spectral skills could compete with other utilities).
As for your request to make the lf degeneration baseline:
Again, you’re overestimating its importance, life force regeneration is much more effective and important. And I’d argue that the second part of VP, cd reduction for Shroud skills, is a lot more valuable.
So, should it be made baseline? Sure, why not, 2% vs 4% degen isn’t a big deal either way. But what really needs to be done then is a rework of several other traits in Soul Reaping.
For example: Take the Shroud skill cd reduction and combine it with both Unyielding Blast and Speed of Shadows to create a proper alternative to Soul Marks. Then also scrap Fear of Death and create 1 new trait in adept and 2 new traits in master tier.
Also, you may think that the passive signet is casted against the enemy who received the crit strike, but its actually casted to the nearest target
That’s not true.
Just to clarify…
Plague Sending can only trigger on targets that you actually hit.
There could only ever be some type of conflict when you use aoe skills and critically hit several targets at the same time. In this case the trait/sigil/rune/whatever-on-hit-or-crit-effect will proc on the target that is closest to the center of the aoe skill. So the center of a mark for example, or closest to you if the skill happens to have zero range like Unholy Feast.
(edited by flow.6043)
3 condis on you.
The trait has a seperate cd.
If it’s separate and independent but same cool down time, doesn’t that mean you can actually have 2 plague signets, one that’s “auto” and one that’s manual?
Yes.
The damage on Rending Claws when combined with its effects (vulnerability generation in common party setups) help make an axe a viable weapon in many game modes
Just for extra emphasis, this is wrong.
The damage on Rending Claws is practically non existent and its vulnerability application makes not difference in every game mode. Yes, every game mode. Even your fractal example.
Again, I’m not saying the axe isn’t a viable pvp weapon, it is and I’m using it all the time. However, RC is garbage, there’s no reason to ever use it other than clearing blindness or when you’re forced to use it because everything else is on cooldown.
I don’t see the value in thinking about just the AA of weapon A vs. weapon B…
Just in case you didn’t see the thread title, it says “Rending Claws”.
In case you didn’t read the original post, the OP was trying to make axe a “viable weapon.”
No, it was a suggestion to change Rending Claws, followed up by asking if he is alone in thinking this would improve the axe. Answer: yes! Rending Claws is useless, the other two skills are not, therefore litterally any change to Rending Claws will net a buff to the whole weapon.
So it’s not an extreme outlier and a 25 stack of vulnerability is like adding an extra DPS to the party because the DPS of 4 condi necros becomes equal to that of 5, and you haven’t yet factored in your own damage. In most of these situations, the axe is the only source of vulnerability in the party.
Which means that those vulnerability stacks on Rending Claws are a lot more useful thank you think and in the case of a common fractal practice make it a good choice for parties.
Ok, I will concede the point that higher level fractals tend to have more condition builds.
However, you do realize that those 25 stacks are probably not all yours, and even if most of them are, they’re certainly not done by Rending Claws alone, more like a combination of several skills and traits. Unless you’re really just auto attacking with axe, in which case your whole point about adding 25% dps to everyone is kinda moot because this group buff comes at the cost of you doing no damage at all.
Again, if you’re taking an axe necro into a full necro party just for vuln stacking you’re doing it wrong. Pick a different build or a different class if you really want to be of use.
Gravedigger is a greatsword skill, not a reaper’s shroud skill.
…
I know. It’s a different skill on a different weapon, just like any off-hand weapon skills or utility skills or Shroud skills. You want to validate the current state of Rending Claws by making a dps calculation including all kinds of other skills, but you draw the line a swapping weapon sets? Really?? Going into Shroud for your “axe”-dps rotation is ok, but your second set doesn’t make the cut?
Do you really not see those obvious flaws on your argumentation?
RC doesn’t have to be overpowered to make the entire weapon good. There are skills on other weapons that are underwhelming but people don’t dismiss those as bad weapons because of them.
I never said RC has to be overpowered and I never said the axe is bad.
RC is bad, regardless of what context you’d like to see it in or whatever weird calculation your confirmation bias could cook up.
RC needs a buff and there’s absolutely no reason why it shouldn’t get one.
(edited by flow.6043)
A well timed Axe #2 will drop a thief/guardian/elementalist in wvw.
A well timed anything can drop anyone, so argument invalid.
It is valid.
Typical WvW Reaper roaming scenario: Thief jumps at me, I swap to shroud to tank the burst, thief eats two hits and starts to kite me, I leave shroud an kill him (or make him disengage at least) with Axe 1+2. A well timed Axe 3 (AOE cripple) is good if he goes to stealth and tries to backstab me. So I can turn the kiting thing around and get some time to breathe.
No alternative for that scenario on Reaper. Staff is too slow and too weak.
On Core Necro Axe is often useless because shroud does the same in a much better way. Makes you a hardcounter to thieves. But who runs Core Necro?
What are you talking about? Did you even read what we’re discussing?
Hesacon said a well timed Axe2 can drop this and that class. When I say other skills can do this as well, you argue against this by making up some imaginary fight against a terrible thief that you end up killing with all 3 axe skills…? What?
A well timed Axe #2 will drop a thief/guardian/elementalist in wvw.
A well timed anything can drop anyone, so argument invalid.
Not rending claws.
Well, I’m glad you finally agree that Rending Claws does no damage at all.
I don’t see the value in thinking about just the AA of weapon A vs. weapon B…
Just in case you didn’t see the thread title, it says “Rending Claws”.
When you look at the actual DPS it works out to be ~10% including utilities, close to the 13-16% you claim for just the weapons.
Like DeceiverX said, adding other skills to your calculation is pointless.
You might as well say: first I start with 1 hit of Rending Claws, then I switch to RS and Gravedigger spam until target is dead. Conclusion, Rending Claws + other skills does 99.999% of the damage you’d do without that first RC hit, therefore it’s “in a better spot than people want to think it is”.
Just to make this clear, yes you do use other skills in actual fights, in fact your rotation will consist of mostly those other skills and you’ll occasionally be stuck on Rending Claws. But RC is weak and brings zero utility, and adding other skills to your calculation doesn’t change the fact that it’s bad.
I know in fractals a lot I end up with my axe and 4 condi necros, and for whatever reason I end up being the only vulnerability source. A 25-stack of vulnerability is like adding a 5th condi necro, except I get to use an axe, so that’s nice.
Really? 5 necros in a fractal group happens a lot? I don’t believe you.
Also, what kind of argument are you trying to make here?
You were in a group that was totally subpar in terms of dps, not just for the lack of applying vulnerability but also might stacking and other stuff. So for this extreme outlier you were able to add a few stacks of vuln with your axe aa? And that is supposed to make Rending Claws look good somehow?
A well timed Axe #2 will drop a thief/guardian/elementalist in wvw.
A well timed anything can drop anyone, so argument invalid.
Unholy feast is a skill i would rather want to use in the middle of a fight, while the other 2 skills are more about staying back and attacking with safe distence.
You say this like you’d have a choice in that matter. But it’s never going to happen in real fights, because: 1. Opponents will come to you. 2. You will go into melee range when you’re using Shroud, when you have to fight on point, when you’re rezzing/stomping someone or several other reasons I can’t think of atm.
The assumption you could stay at range all the times just because you’re using a ranged weapon makes no sense for any class, but least of all for the necro.
And the irony here is, if you actually could stay ranged there’d be all the more reasons to buff Rending Claws because the only way you’re landing any proper damage with axe is by combining Ghastly Claws and Unholy Feast with other (melee) skills.
I dont know but i feel it would better if dagger 3 and axe 3 switched places and dark pact got a range increase to 900.
That would be terrible.
When people see the axe and they look at the range 900 and 600 range skill facts on it, they tend to think: yeah that’s a ranged weapon therefore it will be used at range.
Like I argued above, this is not true, you will have to fight in melee range regardless of your weapon set. Depending on the situation, the axe will be used anywhere between zero and its maximum range, just like the scepter or the staff. And this certainly wouldn’t change if the axe suddenly got a 3 sec immob on a 25 sec cd.
The dagger’s auto attack, however, only works at up to 130 range. The dagger needs that immobilize in order to lock people down and land some aa hits. Crippling someone at 600 range wouldn’t help at all.
I’m not saying that both Unholy Feast or Dark Pact couldn’t be improved, but they certainly are on the right weapons.
The thing with axe is it’s a ranged weapon that isn’t a projectile, which puts it in a fairly unique place.
Every time there’s a complaint about Rending Claws someone brings up this argument.
It was debunked by a ton of people immediately after Robert Gee said it a year ago, and many times more since then whenever the topic was brought up again.
First of all, ranged non-projectile skills aren’t unique at all. Rending Claws is one of many.
Secondly, even if it was unique, that’d be no excuse for how weak this skill is.
Lets be honest here, would anyone be amazed if Rending Claw’s damage was doubled?
Would anyone be impressed if the attack speed was increased by 100%? No.
The problem is that Rending Claws does practically no damage while providing zero utility. Anet’s “slight shavings” approach every patch will never fix this issue.
It needs a serious change. Cleave, obviously, if the damage is supposed to stay as low as it is now. Plus something like a leech effect and/or some type of interaction with boons or conditions (more than 1 vuln/hit anyway).
And again, for extra emphasis, ranged non-projectile is no reason to not buff Rending Claws substantially.
There is only 1 rule that the new trait must follow.
Must NOT interact with the death of people
Fixed that for you.
You know, so the reworked trait doesn’t suck again…
Lingering curse affacts base duration, which means its added after the rest of your condi duration and does not show up in the character window.
Same result, but it’s actually “added” before. LC changes the scepter’s skills and those new ones are again subject to the regular 100% cap.
If all you wanted to do was never die, you could go full our dire …
Dire in PvE? Please don’t.
There are better ways to avoid dying than lowering your damage with tanky stats.
So basically what you’re asking is: Am I doing more damage with ~150 extra condition damage from the Undead rune bonus than with an entirely offensive stat combo?
Answer: no.
If anything the question should be Viper vs Sinister. You can read up on that here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Sinister-vs-Viper/
It’s the same as any other non-Vampiric life steal. You will do the leeching damage but it doesn’t heal through Shroud.
So 2 old skills were nerfed because the system changed. How would this affect a skill that doesn’t even exist yet?
It might have unexpected consequences that nobody likes, so be carefull with what you wish for.
Quoting a fortune cookie doesn’t improve your argument’s logic.
If they really would be creating an elite well, they’d balance it with Vamp Rituals in mind right away.
Patch notes April 19, 2016:
Player Walls and Hit Caps
Wall-type control effects are currently too effective in areas where there are a ton of targets, causing stagnant gameplay in large combat scenarios like WvW. With this update, we’ll be reducing the number of targets that a wall can affect so that things like stability and player numbers matter a bit more. As such, you’ll see multiple notes through the professions that introduce target caps.
Necromancer
- Spectral Wall: The number of times this skill can attempt to inflict fear on an enemy has been capped at 10.
Give a damage co-efficiant to Darkness (maybe half that of Corruption). This would mean it could also trigger Vampiric and Vampiric Aura.
It already does.
It triggers Vampiric Rituals and that’s it. It did trigger all 3 when they redid the traitlines but that was soon fixed.
You’re right, I hadn’t noticed this was changed.
Well of Power – does not do well with condi or hybrid builds, it lacks synergy, I suppose its still OK if traited for wells in PVP and WVW, but otherwise it seriously sucks on non power builds.
It’s a purely defensive skill. Why would there be different synergy with different offensive stats?
The biggest thing that irks me about wells though, is the lack of an Elite Well. We should have one. We have elite corruption, minion, spectral skill and shout. But where is the well ?
Please don’t talke about that, the act of creating the elite for spectral and corruption was by nerfing 2 good skills because you could trait for them (which nobody does), while it was really not necessairy.
So 2 old skills were nerfed because the system changed. How would this affect a skill that doesn’t even exist yet?
Give a damage co-efficiant to Darkness (maybe half that of Corruption). This would mean it could also trigger Vampiric and Vampiric Aura.
It already does.
Wells of darkness, blood, and power are pretty garbage with their immense cooldowns.
Another one who’s probably never even used Well of Power…
Seriously, WoP is easily one of the best skill we have.
Immense cooldown? Look at our other stun breaks, 40 sec isn’t long at all especially when you trait it to be 32 sec. Spec Armor was only now buffed to have the same cd, and before the signets rework last year WoP actually had the second lowest cooldown next to Flesh Wurm.
Personally, I use WoP, WoC and Corrupt Boon.
Now, although I’d caution anyone not to take this specific setup out of the context of the build I use them with, imo those two well are a viable pick in almost any build, especially WoP.
Clearly you misunderstood, not surprising considering you don’t even realize the awesomeness of Well of Power.
It doesn’t matter what I feel or what I like. WoP is boss, that is a fact.
And that obviously needed to be said when everyone else here dismissed it as being in the same trash category as WoD and WoB.
Please do show us how a 40s cd well of power is clutch for us in pvp.
Again, l2well.
I agree that Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption are in a good spot. The other three not so much.
I also agree with above that Darkness, Power, and Blood aren’t good enough to take. So you only have 2 wells you would really use.
They are Necros most used utility (suffering and corruption) because they are the highest dps utilities we have. It’s just a shame Darkness, Power and Blood aren’t of the same stock.
What?
Ok, here’s how it really is:
Well of Suffering is a decent PvE pick and a standard dps choice for WvW zerging. But it’s a wasted utility slot in PvP.
Well of Corruption is an epic skill for both WvW and PvP, but it’s definitely not among the highest dps utilities, so there’s no reason to use it in PvE unless you want to corrupt a lot of boons like in lvl 41-50 fractals.
Well of Power is arguably the best skill necros have, especially when traited.
Yes, I’m serious.
Well of Blood and Darkness are worse than other skills you could take instead, regardless of game mode or situation, which means they suck.
And if you take double wells, once they’re dropped you’re sitting ducks. You either kill someone with them or you’ll die soon after.
l2well
2 light heals per cooldown cycle, yes. Not “per teamfight.”
Well, like I said, one heals-missed-cycle isn’t the actual cooldown of the skill because people don’t use their skills immediately and when they do they will try to heal you when you’re actually not in Shroud. Therefore “per cd cylce” usually happens to be “per teamfight” anyway.
There is the coordination issue, sure. But that doesn’t often work. If a Necro is being focused, they have to jump into Shroud to have any chance of survival. Only problem, that’s when you need those heals as well.
At least we agree on something.
I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t grant necros the ability to receive some heals in those clutch situations. If a necro gets focused hard enough an extra few k healing makes almost no difference anyway.
Maybe we should push for something like 25% outright healing through shroud
Anything less than 100% is just as bad as getting no healing at all.
This is a matter of principle. Shroud should work properly with the rest of the game, like any other defensive mechanic.
Speaking of a properly working Shroud, there’s still the matter of our life force pool effectively being double of what it’s supposed to be. A bug that has been in the game for years, and clearly something that should be fixed.
Now, I’m not saying that necro would have the same balance with only half their lf pool. But wouldn’t it be nice to finally have a Shroud that displayed the correct amount of life force and allows healing to go through at all times?
If all healing through Shroud worked I would gladly take a big nerf to our lf pool, maybe not -50% but perhaps they could make it the same amount as our actual hp.
Anyway, a completely bug free and game-compatible Shroud, this should be the goal.
As for “hurr durr, you’re only comparing heals when you’re in shroud” yes. Yes I am, because that is exactly what the topic is. Because whether we receive healing in Shroud or not, the healing we get outside remains the same and is thus a null value for comparison. Plus, Blighter’s Boon only heals when you are in Shroud anyway.
You totally missed the point I was making.
Yes, the direct comparison of healing values only applies to Shroud vs Shroud.
However, when you factor in cooldowns of healing skills vs possible amount of boons applied in that time frame, you also need to factor in that more often than not other players will wait for you to drop out of Shroud before they try to heal you. And in addition to the fact that people don’t immediately use their heals when they’re off cooldown, you’re really looking at way longer time between missed heals.
Therefore, when you’re talking about one skill that heals for 1.4k or 5k or whatever, you’re probably talking about that amount missed once in 1 minute, which usually exceeds the duration of most team fights.
And in regards to boon application, that also far exceeds the amount of time needed to apply as many boons as you would need according to your calculations.
You can go through any profession you like for group boon application (hint: Heralds, Tempests, and Guardians are really the only ones that do it consistently, and even Guardians have shifted to be more selfish in PvP) and end up maybe matching two, possibly three lighter healing skills in the same timeframes.
Yeah… no.
I’m not sure what kind of matches you’re playing, but people share boons, a lot, and always.
Did you ever look at your party UI in PvP?
In team fights every single player constantly has ~4-6 boon icons, with stacked amounts of course.
2 light heals worth of boons in a team fight? Are you serious? A necro alone was able to do that.
And by “do” I mean it just happened, because there was zero effort involved in sustaining yourself with Blighter’s Boon back then. There wasn’t some strategic planning going on in team chats like: hey our necro is in Shroud, spam ALL the boons now!
No, this just happened with regular skill rotations. And I’m sure the passivity of the trait, unlike actually trying to heal an ally, was part of the reason why it was nerfed.
Furthermore, ally healing is already being timed to coincide with the necro’s Shroud timings if you play with competent enough players. There wouldn’t be significantly more healing if it could go through Shroud. For the most part it would just be a lot easier to coordinate skill rotations.
Do you honestly believe that you would receive that sheer number of boons from other sources?
Yes, easily.
And those are really just other sources, it might be a believable number if you’re talking about the necro alone.
Yet it’s only a fraction of the healing we actually miss out on.
Wrong.
1. Like I said before, you’re underestimating the amount of boons.
2. You conveniently forgot to mention that healing skills have cooldowns, while the old Blighter’s didn’t and boon application is of course a lot more frequent.
3. Your entire argumentation is based on the assumption that those heals we’re missing out on are only cast when we’re in Shroud, which of course isn’t true.
We are getting most of those heals now anyway, at least when that ele or druid pays attention to the necros Shroud timings.
And as always: other classes get those heals all the time!
Drarnor: “but, but… that’s completely different when you get healed while your real hp can’t be touched because of Shroud, which is totally different from when other classes dodge or block or are invulnerable!”
No.
Its not that 400 that is going to save u but if u really need then u can get in runes and death trait line
It’s 560 toughness.
And in its current state Death Magic shouldn’t be used by any build in PvP.
If u want to run a real power build then use berserker or marauder or destroyer even …
I agree, but earlier you said this:
if u want to … not be dying every 30 seconds and u really want to play power then i advise u carrion .gl
…which I took to mean a tanky power option, which carrion simply is not.
I mean, of course you’ll do some direct damage with carrion, but you’re really overestimating Deathly Perception and Decimate Defenses here. (neither of which mandatory picks in a power build btw.)
Stacking PvE-amounts of vulnerability on other players is not happening in PvP, not reliably anyway and even less so in team fights with aoe cleansing.
And regarding DP: base crit chance of 54% in Shroud and 4% out of Shroud. So factoring in the occasional fury or vuln stacks you’re looking at maby 2/3 crits with Shroud and almost no crits without it. Plus, all of that with only 900 power from your amulet and no ferocity at all.
And if you’re really building for power you won’t have many sources for condition damage, which makes the main stat of carrion more of a waste than a bonus.
I think you mean paladin.
Also, you can afford to run a glassy amulet if you pick certain traits and utility skills.No i ment carrion, reaper can make better use with a carrion than paladin.
…
But a carrion amulet has better synergy with a condi build, so unless you’re going for hybrid, that kinda defeats the purpose of trying to make a power build work.
Besides, if you’re worried about getting focused in team fights and/or without life force, paladin gives you a higher ehp against direct damage.
But if u want to be realistic and not be dying every 30 seconds and u really want to play power then i advise u carrion .gl
I think you mean paladin.
Also, you can afford to run a glassy amulet if you pick certain traits and utility skills.
Necessary now?
lol it’s been necessary since day 1 of the game.
And everyone who still argues otherwise (sorry Drarnor…) doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Btw, Blighter’s Boon in its op version was indeed too heavy. But why would you believe that healing for every single boon your allies give you would be similar to the actual ally healing you’re missing out on in team fights? (spoiler alert: it’s much less.)
I agree on that part that Wail of doom was always really good but locust swarm with the slow casttime was really annoying to use.
Just fyi, the cast time reduction was implemented in January 2015 and the swiftness buff in September 2014. Both a long time before people started using warhorn instead of dagger.
In the past condi necros was played in such away that you always tried to stay at 900-1200 range
…
Well of couse you now could argue that this was never the optimal playstyle to begin with
I could, and I will. That’s exactly my point.
The meta build back than was terrible and it forced people into this useless playstyle of off-point camping + scepter auto attack spamming.
at this point we dont really can test it anymore, which makes the whole discussion opinion against opinion.
Well, in my opinion it doesn’t need testing because the warhorn was obviously better.
But, guess what, I actually did some tests, and I had a few discussions about it here on the forums whenever the subject came up. I even had people in game ask me why I was using a warhorn and why I was fighting on point so much, because “warhorn sucks and that’s not how you necro…”.
People’s mentality of how necro should be played was just aweful.
Keep in mind, before the Blood Magic revamp necros had no source of healing other than Consume Conditions and maybe regeneration. A ~6-7k heal every 25 sec to sustain a 25k health pool, that was all we had. And that meant, if you didn’t know how to manage your life force and Death Shroud cooldown you were a sitting duck.
So yeah, perhaps it’s a matter of opinion because your team might’ve carried that passive semi-afk playstyle. But regardless, in those times – in my opinion – it was incredibly foolish to pass on a weapon that was only second to Necrotic Grasp in regards to having by far the highest life force regeneration potential (especially when traited) out of all our skills.
Because warhorn was never trash, apparently it just took a while for most people to realize that.
Yes it was never trash but it also wasnt good. It only became popular after the buff to locust swarm. The extra 5 seconds swiftness and the reduced casttime (it was 1 sec before) helped that weapon a lot.
The reason why now warhorn is taken over offhand dagger is essentially a change in opportunity costs. In the past we had spectral walk as a staple in our utility slots but with the buffs to locust swarm (and changes to our signet skills) it became better to use warhorn+signets instead of sw+offhand dagger. This was also the time when necros used mainly celestrial (and power) builds over condi builds. That was before HoT.
Well Hot changed the meta builds again to what we have today.
I believe you misunderstood.
First of all, the swiftness increase and cast time reduction were only two of many slight buffs it got over the past years, and at best it coincidentally happened somewhere near the pivotal moment in time when the meta shift occured.
Secondly, and more importantly, the warhorn really was always better.
Of course you could argue that certain buffs to other skills or traits made the dagger even more obsolete. But in regards to the warhorn itself, there was never a substantial change in opportunity cost, no such thing as a need for movement speed after Spectral Walk had seen less use in popular builds. No rational train of thought could ever explain why people ever believed a condi transfer (which is really the only thing an off-hand dagger can provide in PvP) was better than an unblockable aoe daze and a skill that has the potential to fill more than your entire life force pool, especially at times when our sustain in team fights was abysmally bad.
So here’s what happened:
Some popular necros used an off-hand dagger in PvP or WvW, which of course was a mistake because the warhorn was always better, so everyone else just copied that build, thus forming the popular opinion that dagger is good and warhorn sucks.
This might sound like some hipster rant, but that’s actually how it was back then. If you were using a warhorn, good for you, you used it before it was cool. If you were using a dagger, well that sucks, you were missing out on a superior off-hand weapon.
I remember when offhand Dagger on Necro was so viable and Warhorn was considered trash. Today the meta game is Warhorn over Dagger. Why is that?
Because warhorn was never trash, apparently it just took a while for most people to realize that.
I’m just wondering because you can apply more bleeds with Dagger.
Ironically, back when dagger was more popular, you could actually have a higher bleed stack uptime with a traited Locust Swarm and Barbed Precision.
Before the trait system revamp, Banshee’s Wail in Curses wasn’t really misplaced.
Barbed Precision had a 66% proc chance back then, which combined with Banshee would allow Locust Swarm to outperform the off-hand dagger’s Enfeebling Blood in regards to bleeding application. Also, the cripple and bleeding provided some synergy with Target the Weak.
Anyway, with the specialization system it was only logical to move Banshee’s Wail to a different line. And the only candidates that made sense were Blood Magic for its synergy with Vampiric, or Soul Reaping because Locust Swarm generates a lot of life force.
(Fun fact: once upon a time SR actually had the trait Decaying Swarm.)
As for Banshee’s Wail itself:
This trait turns an already good weapon into an epic one. And personally, it is my default pick over Vampiric Presence except for some very few situations.
A lot of people simply underestimate Banshee’s Wail, especially when its contribution in combat is a little more subtle than constantly having a buff icon above the skillbar.
I like the life steeling suggestion for Wail of Doom though.
I’ve been trying to make Sigil of Draining work for a similar effect, but in the end other sigils had priority.
Put a small cooldown on exit from shroud of 1 second /fixed
No..
Put F1 for enter, and F2 for exit /fixed
Not this again…
Real solution: don’t use Unholy Sanctuary, don’t spam f1.
Soul Comprehension needs to die in a fire.
Yes, it is only useful in PvE trash mob events.
Yeah. Death Magic is “useful” in PvE.
Also, in PvE you’re always so short on life force that the only way to survive is an extra 2% on nearby deaths.
Don’t use Death Magic. win-win.
Or am I suppose to blindly believe that my critical chance is increased?
Yes. Because obviously it doesn’t show up anywhere in your stats since it’s a buff specific to your attacks against certain targets rather than a static increase to your attributes.
@4: No.
WIKI: “While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force. This damage reduction isn’t shown in the combat log.”
Just to clarify, there isn’t just a reduction on direct damage but any source of damage (yes, even falling damage), which is why people originally assumed our life force pool was twice as big before we could actually see a number on our lf bar.
So why do we now assume a damage reduction rather than a bugged displayed lf number? Overflow damage from Shroud to your regular hp reduces your life force by the correct amount, which makes a damage reduction in Shroud more plausible than a UI bug combined with a double damage bug against life force on overflow.
In short, apart from very few exceptions you can pretend that whatever life force number you see on your bar is actually double.
(edited by flow.6043)
One of only two regenerations for Necro
Mark of Blood, Reaper’s Touch, Mark of Evasion, Well of Power.
Also, you can blast or leap through Spectral Wall for Chaos Armor.
healing allies and clearing their conditions
There hasn’t been an ally cleanse on Putrid Mark since 2013.
In short: even if there suddenly was another ranged weapon like a longbow, the staff would never be less popular than it is now. Not for fluffs or appearances, but because of it’s unique gameplay.
“Tracking, ranged autoattack and 4 identical circles” = “unique gameplay.”
First of all, Necrotic Grasp isn’t homing, if that’s what you mean.
Secondly, the only thing identical about those 4 circles is that they are circles.
And your sarcastic reference to how you feel all marks are similar has nothing to do with mark mechanics in general, which when compared with other weapons is indeed unique.
it’s a braindead skill dump """utility""" bar.
most uninspired design in GW2
offensively long cooldowns
quick to slip into autoattack spam until weapon swap is off cooldown.
L2staff bruh.
If Necro staff were to compete with another max-ranged weapon option, it would need staying power outside of 1 spam and a Mark of Blood every 4.75 seconds. If another weapon could provide something more than that (which isn’t hard), it would very likely become an outright upgrade to staff (given that there would be no way that the other ranged option wouldn’t also provide some sort of means to charge LF).
Dude, seriously, you have an l2p issue here.
Your opinion of the staff seems to be that it’s good for nothing except getting life force. And if that’s really the case you’re not only wrong but you’re probably losing a lot of fights because you can’t use the staff properly.
As popular as staff is, I do not see it being buffed substantially.
Faster projectile velocity would be nice and Reaper’s Mark could stand a shorter cool down now that Elite traits boons, conditions, and dps dwarf Terror’s condition damage.
staff is popular because there is no other 1200 range option. give necromancer a longbow, see its popularity diminish.
Things are popular due to fluff.
I just had a stupid necromancer camping axe in fractal scale 95.
Because he liked the idea of being a necro tank and using an axe.
Similarly plenty of necros who crafted Nevermore and just want to use a subpar weapon on the class because of looks.
This game is full of idiots that somehow make it to upper endgame content.
You’re talking about PvE. Anchoku and Lightsbane are talking about PvP.
In regards to PvE, the staff isn’t always a bad choice, but you’re certainly better off with other weapons when you need high sustained single target dps.
In PvP, however, the staff is the single greatest weapon we have.
Not just for its range, which btw is 1200 + 240 mark radius + 60 trigger radius and even slightly more if you cast a mark while moving away from your target. But also, the utility of marks, the fact that you don’t need to face the casting direction, the way marks wrap around surfaces and allow you to hit targets even if they are out of your line of sight, the ability to precast them for area denial and to artificially reduce their cooldowns, the option to trait all of them to be unblockable and other trait synergies, every single staff skill is a 5 target aoe, the by far highest life force regeneration potential of all our skills on Nectrotic Grasp, and last but not least: marks are non-projectile ranged skills without any travel time, placing marks at max range takes the exact same amount of time as they do in melee range. And from an opponent’s perspective there’s no true tell or visible enough distinction of which skill is being cast and where it is going to land, making the staff a relatively unpredictable weapon to play against.
In short: even if there suddenly was another ranged weapon like a longbow, the staff would never be less popular than it is now. Not for fluffs or appearances, but because of its unique gameplay.
(edited by flow.6043)
We clearly have different opinions about what roles necros can or should have.
Also, I don’t want to start another toughness vs vitality debate, but everything you said about EHP was wrong. Vitality is always better.
Focus is a viable alternative to warhorn for zerging and flat out better if your group provides enough swiftness.
Reaper should not be used in a zerging build. The only useful thing in there is RS2 for additional mobility but it comes with a significant loss of ranged damage.
If your approach is to be as far away from the action as possible, then yes, I agree.
However, warhorn isn’t just about swiftness, just like RS isn’t about the occasional low range mobility skill.
Just don’t be a chicken and jump straight into the meat grinder when the opportunity presents itself. RS’s stability, Locust Swarm, the protection from wells and all the vamp procs will sustain you for quite a while. And in that case focus and/or DS just can’t keep up.
Use SR(all middle) instead.
Like I said, any combo of Spite – BM – SR – Reaper is ok. Personally, I think the only incentive in SR for zerging are unblockable marks. The rest are either negligable damage buffs or improved life force regen that is less valuable than the sustain you’d get from Blighter’s Boon.
Always use Vampiric Presence over Banshee’s Wail if you are running with any kind of group. Lifesteal on every attack is far too strong to ignore.
I would agree if you were the only source of Vampiric Aura in your group or zerg. However, usually there are a million other necros with VP anyway. I do switch sometimes when I notice a lack of it, but mostly I’d just be overstacking with an already redundant amount of Vamp Auras. So that’s why I usually have Banshee’s Wail.
Other than that, drop the marauders. You are getting barely any survivability(3k HP is nothing unless you are using a low HP base class) benefit out of it while also losing damage, even with the vit->ferocity oil. Not a tradeoff that’s worth it in my opinion.
Well… any extra vitality is still better than no vitality, it is still the best defensive stat for necros afterall. But you’re misunderstanding the point of adding Marauder. There’s only a loss of damage compared to full zerker when you’re not overstacking crit chance, like it would be the case for a core necro build with Deathly Perception. In this case you could even mix in a lot of Valkyrie gear. However, without DP or Decimate Defenses you have to rely on a high base crit chance so you’re pushed close to 100% with Spotter and fury. Of course, you could substitute Assassine stats as well, but then you’d lose even more power without the extra hp and life force.
@Flow: I’ve no idea whether you or Josh XT is the better necro, BUT … he’s posted a build that noobs like me can at least try (the ones I’ve found on metabattle don’t seem that good). How about showing the build you’d use (if you add they WHYs and HOWs as well, that’d be really helpful!)?
If I had to make a build designed for zerging it would probably look like this.
Generally speaking, any combination of Spite/Blood Magic/Soul Reaping/Reaper would do fine, but if you consider yourself to be a noob I’d definitely go with Reaper because RS is a lot easier to pull off than DS.
You can also take a look at my personal roaming build, but I really wouldn’t recommend it to new or casual players.
Really questioning what your knowledge of necro is lol.
Warhorn isn’t good, like not even a little bit. The Daze seems to fail more often than not and the WH5 is weak, does little damage and is generally not effective.
The irony…
It’s a pity we’re not both EU or NA. I’d just show you how effective it is by beating you with staff and warhorn 10/10 times :P