Guild Wars 2

The important thing to remember is it is not about whether you’re an amazing group player with an awesome guild that loves the current pug stomping set up and thinks casuals don’t belong in tournaments, or a casual who hates being stomped but wants to be part of the real pvp experience at his own pace and thus only pugs.

Ultimately the fact is- ALL competitive sports separate the best from the worst, casual from pro. You don’t go down to your local arena for a pick up game of hockey and suddenly your group of old people, children and buddies who exercise twice a month are up against the LA Kings.

Yet, there are tournaments in children’s sports, college leagues, state leagues, national and international- there isn’t a huge skill or organizational gap for the most part between competitors in those tournies.

As long as GW2 decides to ignore that this form of pvp cannot be called competitive to anyone- it’s not to the best, the decent and organized, the decent casuals or the awful.

The idea that fighting the best teams will make you better has zero basis- there isn’t a single scientist who would support that bashing your face against a brick wall over and over is going to make you stronger than facing obstacles that provide a challenge BUT you can overcome.

Nevermind the fun factor- yes, I said it, fun, that magical word that somehow vanishes whenever we talk about video games.

Be honest- who has fun when TP squashes a midcard team? Or when a guild squashes a bunch of casuals with zero organization? People who like competition like even matches- where they can win, or they can lose, where they are challenged- and more importantly, for this to be called ‘tournament’ pvp that aspect of challenge should be there.

That’s why smarter games have ELO and separate pugs from premades.

Of course- yes, there is a group that loves easy matches- but the casuals they need to face an easy foe will start to leave as they grow bored of being stomped, and then those easy match lovers will only face each other- and they will hate that and leave. Trying to build a game for those people results in an empty game over time- every time.

But, build a game where the best face the best, casuals face casuals, teams face teams and you have a system people who won’t flake out will love. The current system doesn’t give satisfaction, competition or fun by design- and it never has. There’s a working system out there that’s been used by real sports for decades- maybe it’s time to stop using archaic systems that drive players away.

Or, you can keep with the ‘maybe casuals should not be in tournaments’ logic that pretty much destroyed the pvp in TOR- are the two most anticipated mmos of the year really both going to fall to the same problems? I’ve given up on Bioware, it’s a long wait for another decent sounding mmo if Anet’s going to be the same.

Guess what- casuals will stop playing tournaments- and the game altogether. Most people use pugs as a way to test a game before looking for a commitment to a guild/pvp group- but if everyone is too disgusted by the game early on, you are going to see less premades too- think about it.

Remember when online games went by the time on my watch? No? Ya, me neither.

Yes, the ‘grind’ is optional- but as the grind is the pve game that is the same as saying the game itself is optional- which is true of course for all games.

My point is, the entire pve game feels like a grind- no matter what level, the streamlining of enemies, bosses and abilities make every part of the pve game feel almost the exact same (nevermind that it feels I’m doing the exact same heart quests in every area making the questing also feel very streamlined).

Outside of a few events and bosses- which are far between- that feel fun, most of the game just feels like repetitive bleh.

Naturally, this is entirely opinion as most things online are- but I see a lot of people who feel the same way.

GW1 had so much variety- this game it feels like you’re doing the same thing just with different skins.

Why can’t we have a list of abilities that act in vibrantly different ways? Or enemy clusters that are nothing like those in different areas? Why am I still doing the same quests in level 50 zones I did at level 5?

You also don’t improve from level 5ish to higher levels- any other game you are getting more powerful, you get new abilities and thus new ways to play, so even boring grind games (ie- most mmos) at least there’s something changing. This game I feel I’ve been doing the exact same thing the entire game- and I don’t even have the enjoyment other games offer in dungeons of playing a role- because it’s still the exact same just with a bigger health pool and more damaging enemies.

At the moment- GW2 is best for pvp. But, many other games at their peak were far more enjoyable- they just ruined that peak with bad decisions generally about gearing and balance.

Why do they put pugs in with premades in all mmos? Because it makes premades feel special first off, but secondly- because not enough people are interested in premade pvp. If they didn’t, premade queues would never pop because very few premades want to face premades- as long as there’s a good chance of stomping a pug though it’s great.

There are people who want a challenge- and they’re the ones who will say ‘we want it to be premade vs premade only’. But, look at all the responses of people in premades saying there shouldn’t be a pug queue- those are the people who hate a challenge, and that’s a lot of people.

Of course- puggers are also a big group, and it’s been shown again and again that they do leave mmos that make pvp a painful experience- look at the state of TOR’s pvp for a perfect example of a game ruined by making the game extremely unpleasant for casuals.

At the least- you don’t have to gear up in this game, so until another game does that for pvp this is casual’s best bet.

I agree with the OP to a point. Someone brought up GW1 which had even fewer skills- but honestly, GW1 it felt like it actually mattered because the abilities actually had some oomph to them.

Too many of these abilities in GW2 feel like they do the exact same thing, especially in pve grinding which is the first massive chunk of the game- damage plus a minor effect. There’s no hotbar customization, limited ability customization- and what there is either is moot because there’s little difference in how most abilities work out in pve.

Now- to their credit, it works in pvp as the differences matter a lot more, as does debuffs and CC. PvE though feels unbelievably repetitive and playing different classes or ‘roles’ still feels the exact same.

The abilities are simply too streamlined, like they were afraid to put anything unique in there- fine for balance in pve, but it ends up with a mess when you get to anything significant in pve because everyone is doing the same thing- damaging and dodging.

In any other game, there’s a flow to the combat that feels natural and makes sense just by looking at the ability. That’s absent here- the combat flow is terrible, and matching up abilities that synergize and learning the correct ‘flow’ doesn’t feel any more satisfying than just spamming them abilities when they get off cooldown- in fact.

This game feels nothing like GW1- whatever build I picked, it felt different as a whole, it had abilities that were greatly situational, and most importantly my dervish felt extremely different from my necro and my ele.

Long CDs and few abilities work in pvp- heck, games like LoL have 4 abilities, which even then sometimes have half minute+ CDs, and the combat is still interesting. PvE- not so much, especially with all tough mobs being CC immune (thus negating what little hasn’t been streamlined already) and all having ungodly amounts of health.

The problem is the game isn’t like GW1 at all- it’s WoW without any of the variety, without anything but damage dealing (with a dodge mechanic replacing tanks, and a downed mechanic/GY zerg rushing replacing healing), and without any reward.

Hint to Anet- people didn’t dislike WoW because of the gear- they disliked the grind to get the gear. Taking out all the gear but still keeping all the grindy aspects was not the right choice.

Right now though in pve- levelling, dungeoning, using abilities all feel like a dull grind. In all fairness though, I wasn’t expecting much from the pve- at least the pvp is better than any other mmo out there.

OP- “Hey look, GW2’s methods of telling how much population is on a server is flawed and doesn’t work- hooray for GW2!”

Glorious composition, comrade.

My friend bought it for me because I was reluctant to after how boring I found it in the beta, so I didn’t pay a thing. Even so, I almost still wouldn’t consider this game worth it, too much of a boring grind, too repetitive, and too little variation in gameplay. In fact, I was so bored I decided to try out the WoW MoP beta, despite having not wanted to play that game since the start of Cata.

The MoP beta was so incredibly dull it utterly quashed any desire to ever buy it. So, GW2’s dullness saved me the sixty bucks for MoP- making GW2 for free worth every penny.

“Let’s make a game where we know full well that the focus is structured pvp, and only have one kind of pvp map objective”.

Brilliant.

Anet- the game’s been out long enough for there to be content updates, content that should have been here day one anyway. The only thing keeping the game afloat is the lack of gear- so be thankful that one good decision was made. But, no gear isn’t going to keep people long when gameplay has no variation.

They spent most of their budget on making a massive pve world to grind out hearts- why? Nobody expected the pve of this game to be good, it’s guild wars after all- yet the spvp seems like an afterthought in a game that should revolve around it.

There’s many things that are innovative about the game.

1- There’s never been a game that is so extremely restrictive. Look through the forums and you will constantly see fans shooting down anyone saying bad things about the game with this line “You aren’t playing it right”. And it’s very true, there is a ‘right’ way to play the game because the whole campaign about ‘playing how you want to’ was a load of bunk.

You can’t farm unless you ‘do it right’. You can’t dungeon unless you ‘do it right’, down to the point where people think the abundance of bosses that nearly force melee to go ranged for them is a good thing.

The game is more about dying in the right place so you can be combat rezzed easily, and dodge kiting than actual combat/class mechanics- because of the loss of holy trinity. It is why you never see discussion on using class abilities in dungeon discussions because the classes barely matter- your ability to evade tank/rez does. Meaning, this game is nice for those who like to evade tank to often poorly telegraphed moves, or like the rez zerg- or like standing back and spamming 3-5 ranged attacks.

2- Never played a game that thought they could put starting zones tasks halfway through the game. There is so little variation in what you do for hearts and events- kill x, gather y, escort z. And in level 50 zones I’m still killing bandits and checking crab traps- the game has zero feeling of epic beyond a few events and the world bosses.

And the grind is completely encompassing the game too- simply put, enemies have too much health, so it always feels like you’re fighting an elite enemy… even when you’re high level killing a boar or an insect swarm. That might sound nice, but it gives no feeling that you ever are doing anything different- if I want to go back and do earlier quests, it’s the same slogging through enemies it is at same level. Go to dungeons and it’s considerably worse. The game has completely missed the mark on fast, varied gameplay, dungeons all feel like I’m in Molten Bore dealing with giants- where’s the fun, varied gameplay?

Thing is, I’m all for having no loot progression, so this isn’t a ‘oh you just want to play for loot, this game is for fun’, no, this is a game that feels like a grind at all times- except there is no pot of gold at the end of that grinding rainbow, just more grind. And it feels like whether I’m in a dungeon, starting zone or at endgame I’m doing the exact same thing- even more so than other mmos. The scope changes slightly in level 80 zones- but until then the game is just slogging through it.

3- Running everywhere- sure, you have expensive fast transport, but for those who travel a lot and don’t want to have to engage in the poorly implemented trading post (or, cannot because it is down half the time), it’s going to eat your money fast because it goes up in cost much faster than the rate of earning cash goes up. This, in a world that is extremely huge makes even walking a dull grind- no mounts in this game, why put in something convenient.

Overall- this game has tried too hard to be unique by removing anything that has variety in it and streamlining the entire game into a massive, rewardless grind. It missed its mark, and it’s disappointing that so many of the things we were promised went up in smoke- but, as an mmo player I’ve gotten used to disappointments like this game.

“Play how we want you too.” Seems to be their new, revised slogan.

Because the game is still extremely grindy, repetitive, doesn’t have much of a ‘play it your way’ style at all. It’s WoW without loot or trinity or variation. The ‘no role’ thing has made pve nothing but a quagmire of people doing the same thing, fights that are all about the exact same thing and nothing else- dodging- and has really made this game ‘swing, swing, swing, swing’ making the set of keys you press just as, if not more, repetitive than WoW’s gameplay.

The game is just a grind without a reward. I don’t think many people would complain if the gameplay was FUN without a reward- and lo and behold the absolute least complained about part of the game is the spvp which has ZERO grind to it. Frankly, I’d like this game considerably MORE without the grinds that they very much DO have. You’ve been conditioned to automatically think ‘grind=better loot stats’- no, grind is extremely repetitive tasks you have to do over, and over, and over to advance- so, levelling, crafting, getting money so you can afford things like wvw items, travel, rezzing.

Nobody expected this game to be exactly like GW- but why didn’t they take all the successful, unique parts of GW1 and add the things largely wanted/improve on it? Why did they instead just take WoW, strip the rewards, but keep the boring gameplay?

The SPVP is good, and, it’s the only thing that doesn’t have a grind AND it’s the only thing that is exactly as was promised- and it’s the only reason I’m likely to keep playing this game.

WvW they missed their mark- why not make everything earnable in wvw, not unlike WoW’s AV with all the things you could gather in battle to summon spirits/reinforce troops, etc….? Why not have everything buildable by doing pvp/pve in the wvw zone- have nodes/animals drop parts to upgrade towers/siege, have players drop similar tokens or whatever? Instead, upgrades are best earned by those who are either really good at playing the AH/making cash or those who exploited the dozens of bugs and poor design choices before they were fixed (not including the renown folks who got banned)? Perhaps I’m silly for thinking that WvW should be about the WvW zone and what happens in it.

I want to make it clear that I’m not saying this because I free transferred to the best server in the game.

WvWvW is not meant to be fair or even, it never has been. There’s a reason why it’s always been said that you need three sides for rvr to work right- because people have no clue what they are talking about. If you want even play there’s spvp- I have never, ever, ever seen world pvp that is even remotely even- it ALWAYS comes down to big zergs versus big zergs- and sure, yes, sometimes you get some ultra guilds that come in and through superior planning and organization are able to destroy swarming masses twice their size but in general it’s numbers that matter most.

Life isn’t fair, war isn’t fair- you want fair you have the rest of the boring game to have your hand held through. World pvp is the last bastion in mmos free of constant interference and limits- and even then we have these stupid limits on the number of players who can be in at any time. Let’s just ruin everything why don’t we?

Also- yes, this was said because I’m awesome for xferring to Henge- we rule you dweebs! Rage moar!!!

Problem isn’t that the dungeons are too hard- it’s that they pigeon hole you into a specific role.

Which is kind of ironic after months of ‘we do not want to pigeon hole you’ and the motto ‘play how you want’.

The dungeons aren’t that strategic or difficult to understand- they’re just boring, simple and as has been said a hundred times- 95% of the time being a ranged is insanely easier than being a melee.

Melee could handle constant aoes and heavy melee damage in other games because of healing- if that isn’t going to happen, either some of the heat has to be taken off the melee OR additional heat needs to be put on ranged characters or you are going to see what is already becoming common place “lfm, melee need not apply”.

“Play as you want… as long as it is exactly how we want you to.” Probably too long for a slogan.

Not long. I’m trying to like this game, but it just feels like WoW but even less rewarding. Group play feels like a complete mess, solo play is a unbelievably boring grind even worse than WoW- and what’s the difference? Oh, no quest giver with a yellow !. That’s not innovation, that’s taking a game everyone’s already tired of and putting make up on it.

GW1 wasn’t perfect, it had a lot of things that I didn’t like- no open world for one- but otherwise the abilities, gameplay, style, dungeons and sense of being able to play completely differently AND excel in some ways all were good things- yet GW2 is really just WoW with a few tweaks, many of which are not good ones.

And no, this isn’t a ’don’t like this game cuz it has no lewtz!’ or ‘go back to wow!’ complaint- I left WoW for a reason, and it’s the same reason I’ll be likely leaving this game’s pve soon.

WvW isn’t any better- battles are zerg fights full of ranged aoe- since there are no truly bulky characters, and no healers keeping them up so melee are screwed up close. Course, I had a bad feeling the lack of trinity was going to make content too easy- at least I was wrong there. Content isn’t easy or fast- but mostly because enemies have absurd amounts of health, no abilities/gear combinations truly increase your killing power in pve by much, CC is increasingly useless, and rather than teamwork being key the game is about dodge kiting and death zerging.

They completely ruined their own economy with multiple bad decisions on their part plus a few bugs that were naturally taken advantage of- not to mention there is almost nothing other than crafting materials you can sell for more on the AH after the tax than you can vendor it for before level 80.

And pretty much all these problems aren’t ‘going to be fixed’ or ‘added to’, heck, in some cases they’ve already made it worse and said ‘deal with it, you play it OUR way’- good thing Anet never advertised the game as a ‘play how you want to’ style of game.

The only good thing I have to say about this game is the SPvP. It’s not fantastic, but, it’s probably the best thing on the market right now- and that’s likely the only thing I’ll be doing in this game. Still, this is already looking exactly like Warhammer, Conan, Old Republic, Secret World, etc…. launch with the same tired ‘go play WoW!’ argument being the only thing the fanbois can come up with for any criticism, and the same ‘deal with it’ and kneejerk bad decision making from devs.

It doesn’t feel like the game we were promised- it’s way too much like WoW- you can’t cut out gear and change nothing else and say ’there’s no gear grind, this is completely different and new’ that doesn’t fool most players.

Where’s the events that feel like you made a difference? The investment in your realm? Why is the story telling so atrocious? Why are the hearts so repetitive? And what made you think basing all pve around zerging was going to be the future of mmos?

In most games- you slog through the levelling grind to get to the good stuff at the end- this game, it’s all the same, there’s nothing better at the end. So, if you ever find the game itself boring- not talking the loot rewards- then just leave, nothing changes at any point.

Except… this game- GW2- is a grind until max level, which is unnaturally high all things considered. This game feels exactly like any other grind- except it’s a grind without a reward to it.

It really feels like they’ve missed their mark, and badly.

Honestly, this game has felt like a grind since day one.

They made it out like it was so different from previous mmos- and from what I recall of GW1 (until endgame ecto farming anyway) a lot of the challenge was just getting through an area.

Now, you do what? You farm hearts- which are 95% gather x/kill x quests THE EXACT SAME BORING STUFF WOW WAS. But no, it’s so different because… you don’t have to talk to someone with a big yellow ! above their head.

Seriously!? THAT is the innovation?!

Most ‘hard’ fights are about dodge kiting since apparently teamwork and healing/tanking roles are evil- but running around in chaos, dodging and rez-zerging is brilliant.

Do you know what really made WoW the ‘king’ of mmos for so long, despite it’s 3 button spam combat and grinding? Variety- perhaps not for world pve but in dungeons- where WoW focused- you had a lot more going for it in ways of strategy and teamwork.

GW2- for a game that’s built for large group play- seems to have embraced this bizarre ‘every man for himself’ strategy for just about everything.