This was more of a system revamp than a balance. They had to go back and change the old system to match the system they were going to introduce in HoT, and with that, the opportunity to “redo” the traits was presented.
Other than that do, it really was just translating the old system to match to the new system, and all the balance team could hope to do was minimize the amount of imbalances that occur during the process.
Some people might not think it worked, some people will, but ultimately, it will come down to the time when the rest of the new system gets added together (aka when HoT drops) to really make all of the balance adjustments, so that all that is left at that point is seeing how the elite specs change the classes and whether or not they bring any new imbalances to the system at that point.
Sidenote: I’m not defending anything, I’m just explaining my takeaway from the situation. I’d be pretty frustrated too if I had thought this was going to be a balance patch.
These two make me think “what the heck” …
- Backstab: This will now only apply revealed when you hit a foe.
- Berserker’s Power: You are now required to hit with the burst skill. This will trigger in the same way as the trait Cleansing Ire.
So the poor Warrior loses all their adrenaline and gets nothing from either of their two GM traits … but the Thief isn’t revealed if they miss … really?!
I agree with the sentiment personally lol, but you could tell it was broken on thief because backstab was the ONLY stealth skill applying reveal regardless of hit or miss.
Now, again, I would totally agree with the change, but I don’t think ANet was going to stealthily slip in a “by the way, you’re always revealed from stealth now regardless of whether or not you hit anything” change lol. They would need like, and entire blog post addressing stealth with in depth explanations on why the change is being made, and even then, the waterworks would be over 9000 because of all the people getting their crutch taken away.
Sadly, you’re probably right … I’m not sure what ArenaNet is doing/thinking … they’ve already nerfed some things less than 24 hours after the patch and left more egregious things alone.
Valk, eh?
Have you tried remorseless with Cavalier?I just logged in a few minutes ago to check something on my Guardian – two patches it seems. Any idea of what they changed?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-23-2015/first#post5196957
Nothing hit on Guardian. Some predictable things were hit on Warrior/Mesmer/Thief.
With Axe/Dagger, Sword/Torch on a full, perfectly landed condition rotation on the 0/6/6/6/0 build, if you are running with Krait Runes Sharpening Stone, it looks something like Throw Torch→Entangle→Bonfire→Weaponswap with geomancy sigils →Sharpening Stone→Splitblade for the quickdraw proc→dagger 5→splitblade again.
You should have somewhere around 30 bleeds alone, ticking with the 4-5 stacks of burning, torment, and poison. Feel free to add in a skill to apply more poison in that rotation as well.
I mean, even without the entangle in the rotation, use quickdraw to swap from defense boosting skills to offense (this is more a note for myself, some people may already use them for offense) and use it on Splitblade an Throw Torch and you can maintain something like 13-15 bleed stacks, 2 stacks of burning, and at least 2 stacks of poison from the other skills thrown in.
Was rapid fire nerfed? It appears to have 2/3 less damage output.
It was already nerfed – so now it is even less???
Please stop posting false information.
If people actually read the progression of my tests after my first, and obviously incorrect observation, Rapid-fire is just as it was before(only longer range due to 1500 rng). As I said I tested it in areas like Frostgorge against Jormag before reset and the damage was nearly identical. so I was satisfied after that that my initial panic was un-needed. And after reset, at Tequatal, I confirmed it even more. My direct damage was identical to pre-patch.
So, in conclusion, sorry for starting a panic. I usually wait until others post about something and test it myself to see if what they are saying is true. This time I jumped the “bow” and posted in a panic.
See you in game.
No, don’t worry, you’re fine lol, no problems.
I was responding to a particularly well known “doom and gloom” misinformation poster that was about to take the idea and run with it; posting that “RF has been nerfed” in every thread for the next month whenever we are having positive, constructive conversations just because they can’t get over their own problems with the class and ANet as the developer.
I agree that the Healing Spring trap change is weird.
It’s… Strange and clunky. Pets trigger it, targets at full HP trigger it (and we have been told otherwise)… And so on.
Some tweaks around this trap would be welcome. The offensive traps are fine for now.
Weirdly enough, I dismissed it but I actually like it. Drops and goes off when dropped, just like prepatch, making it still a reliable on demand heal, and it can be traited down to 24 seconds and gives 1 whole minute of regen total, while doing all of the same things Healing Spring has always done, AND still having 1:1 scaling with Healing Power.
I mean, other than it not working with Trap oriented runesets, how is it not in a perfect place? Like, I get the value of being able to drop it and somehow come back to it when needed…. but how could it have that functionality while also retaining the on demand heal functionality? It being on demand imo is the most valuable thing about it.
Did anybody else notice that of all of the existing pictures (so excluding the Warrior and Engineer and I guess I need to lump Tempest in here too), Ranger was the only picture with the weapon not being shown somewhere?
Regardless of what you think about power ranger, it has never been a competent enough build to compete at higher tier PvP levels or competitive tournaments.
power rangers didn’t need much. just a little push in the right direction.
Hey I’m just stating facts lol. There’s been a grand total of 1 ranger to ever play power on a top team, and was subsequently dropped from that team for a thief because the thief made it a better team comp (it really was entirely a team composition decision).
I’m not saying that this patch hasn’t done anything for the build, because it definitely has. But I was making more of a direct response to the completely and totally L2P issues presented in this thread whereas a person stated something was OP in a completely anecdotal, opinion based format and is clearly misinformed as to the effectiveness of power ranger.
I mean, if it’s so OP, we would see one on every top team going and winning money on the weekly ESLs, the monthly Go4 cups, and going to the WTS tournament, right?
The consensus a few of us are coming to is Marksmanship, Wilderness Survival, and Beastmastery for all out offensive Marauder amulet Longbow/Greatsword, but the more practical build for high end play being Marksmanship, Wilderness Survival, and Nature Magic to survive getting jumped by common threats (which was really the only thing keeping it from being a meta-contender pre-patch).
As for conditions, we haven’t really narrowed much down yet lol. People are even starting to come up with some shortbow builds because the poison stacking actually did shortbow a favor by giving it a way to sort of “burst” a condition onto people.
However, the general consensus right now is Skirmishing, Wilderness Survival, and Nature Magic for more of a bunker sort of build, where Skirmishing, Wilderness Survival, and Beastmastery as well as Wilderness Survival, Nature Magic, and Beastmastery are being used for more damage oriented dueling style builds, both with Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch condition amulets (still a debate between Carrion, Settlers, and Rabid).
Regardless of what you think about power ranger, it has never been a competent enough build to compete at higher tier PvP levels or competitive tournaments.
It’s easily counterable and once the initial teamfight is taken care of, confirming that it is, in fact, a ranger running a power build, then there is no excuse for that ranger being anywhere other than at spawn or in downstate for the rest of the game, REGARDLESS of what you are playing unless you are a wet noodle damage bunker.
The only time you “need” a thief is when you allow a ranger to get to a vantage point against you on a map like Forest/Legacy, in which case, don’t even allow that ranger to freecast a single skill unless there is a higher priority target somewhere nearby.
The builds I’ve been having the most success with are both condition builds.
Skirmishing, Wilderness Survival, and Nature Magic with Axe/Dagger, Sword/Torch. Settler’s (or carrion, still testing this part, conditions in pvp are…. really broken right now in some instances, and the high hp seems valuable) with Energy/Geomancy Sigils and Krait Runes.
Healing Spring, Sharpening Stone, Lightning Reflexes, and Signet of the Wild, with Entangle.
Pets: Wolf and either Drakehound or River Drake.
Traits (for this we are going to go from 1 to 3 in each slot, 1 being the top option, 2 being the middle, so on):
Skirmishing: 3 3 1
Wilderness Survival: 2 3 2
Nature Magic: 1 1 2
Very tanky, very evasive, and a 24 second cooldown Healing Spring to deal with all of the obnoxious condition spam that hits like a truck right now (Guardians -.-).
The other is Wilderness Survival, Nature Magic, and Beastmastery. Same weapons, sigils, and runeset as above. Same utilities except I replace Healing Spring with Troll Unguent, though even at 30 seconds and less “lolregen duration” I’m still thinking Healing Spring will end up being better, at least until the meta settles (or it will remain if the meta settles on some of these obnoxious condi builds).
Pets: Eagle and Owl
Traits:
Wilderness Survival: 3 1 2
Nature Magic: 1 1 2
Beastmastery: 1 1 1
Very strong dueling build. The pet is just obnoxious, and you easily maintain perma-weakness on an opponent, and the pet has very good damage output.
I’m still playing around with power builds. I think that overall, time to kill has become a bit too fast for my liking across the board though and on ranger specifically that doesn’t have the same sort of survival based gimmicks that classes like thieves and mesmers gained; it just really hasn’t been for me so far.
It’s been working fine for me. Using it on a Eagle is just lol spam worthy.
Was rapid fire nerfed? It appears to have 2/3 less damage output.
It was already nerfed – so now it is even less???
Please stop posting false information.
Looking at the history from beta to now, it’s been all over the place and it has been nerfed before.
Why buff it in the last patch only to reduce it yet again?
My point stands.
Numerically and mathematically prove what you are saying, or stop spreading misinformation. Your choice.
Was rapid fire nerfed? It appears to have 2/3 less damage output.
It was already nerfed – so now it is even less???
Please stop posting false information.
Nature Magic and Wilderness Survival are probably the best combination of survival oriented traitlines you can run if getting jumped is the main issue.
The last option as far as I can tell at this point is really player preference.
theorycrafting on paper accomplishes what? you asked if rangers would become viable in sPvP… how do you expect to answer that ON PAPER?
jcbroe will always try =) bless his heart.
but honestly Apoc I feel you want all the answers without any effort or work on your part. another thing u can do is just wait for people to start releasing guides in a few weeks/months, if u don’t want to test things yourself.
Well in my defense, the builds I posted work fantastically, as well as going full BM for F2s and a pet combo like…. Eagle and Drake lol.
I’m not liking power as much as I thought I would. It has good application and is very strong and I can see it working on an actual, organized team. But when I have to solo queue with it, it just doesn’t carry like I think it should, and the condition builds we have do INSANE damage and are tanky and can fight on point on top of it lol.
I haven’t noticed the slightest difference in the PvP lobby as far as damage output is concerned.
I seriously doubt it was touched beyond the loss of % damage modifiers, but I just got home and will be able to “test by approximation” to be certain once I’m done patching, among a million other things.
Yeah, that’s my immediate list so far.
However, with 6/0/6/6/0, you pick up through some traiting options the ability to perma-maintain fury, swiftness, and regen, the regen even with no power being significant to play off of Oakheart Salve for inherent damage reduction, and the “upgraded” power build will cover all of the weakness it currently has, mainly, it won’t get blown up by other zerkers, and may even have the upper hand in places where it currently doesn’t, while also having the potential to give the entire team those same boons at a permanent or near permanent uptime, which is much, much more utility than the power build currently brings.
What weapon set would this build run?
Also you are pretty much the person I was waiting for to respond to such a question. Would I be able to add you in game for some discussion, testing and theorycrafting? I’m so willing and ready to test Rangers to their extreme with this new patch and having someone to compare data with would be fantastic.
Yeah, definitely, go ahead and add me in game. I typically play later in the night on the USA Eastern timezone, so I probably won’t be on tomorrow until the afternoon/evening, but I will be online and testing whenever I can be!
As for the 6/0/6/6/0 build, Longbow would be the main choice, but I have to see how Clarion Bond works in game and how Windborne Notes plays with the it, but depending, I’d either stick with the Greatsword as the swap so I could make the most potential use out of the ability to take Moment of Clarity on the build, but if I don’t get the boon durations I’m looking for with just GS, I’m going to see how Sword/Warhorn plays with it, which should be more than enough duration at that point.
Well without TOTALLY derailing the thread, I think the tomorrow’s patch will be an overall mixed bag.
Warrior, Thief, and Elementalist will get the most beneficial changes (though ele might suffer with the amulet changes in some regards).
Engineer and Mesmer are getting some powerful options but still have glaring weaknesses that makes them easy enough to hardcounter in PvP, and I think personally that Engineer for the first time since launch will struggle to remain such a “go to” choice and will have quite a bit of competition, whereas this is nothing new for mesmer.
Guardian and Necro took some hits and gained some tools. Necro has always been the theoretical best 1v1 class though (as in, on paper, with perfect play, they have the edge in every match up) and a lot of their changes make them even better at that, but they will still be potentially thief food and easy to focus targets in teamfights, which is where they suffer the most. Guardians on the other hand just got hurt all over from the reorganization and are almost entirely shoehorned into meditations or a “more lackluster than warrior” shout build.
Where does ranger fit in with all of this? Well, our utilities got some pretty significant and ultimately underwhelming changes, as far as traps and spirits go. However, the trait reorganization helps us immensely as far as condensing desirable traits into builds in which they are all available, covering weaknesses (the amount of inherent damage reduction, fury/swiftness, and vulnerability one build can output is insane), and giving us some teamfight tools we previously lacked (vuln is better than ever, we can give out perma-fury which is rare in PvP, good damage and ability to focus and kill targets), as well as opening up new roles for us (Quickdraw makes evasion bunkering scary, and the duality of it being condi bursts getting super scary potential as well).
So ultimately I’m cautiously optimistic for rangers for tomorrow. We have lots of tools that make us strong, so really, the only thing that even has the chance to hold us back is the builds the other classes fall into and how we play against them, both individually and how the builds perform on a team.
6/6/6/0/0 Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch conditions with GMs Remorseless, QuickDraw, and Wilderness Knowledge with the vulnerability and bleed trait will have lots of survival and damage, while the same setup with 0/6/6/6/0 will be the less damaging, higher survival alternative build option with Protective Ward, and really shouldn’t be capable of losing 1v1s to any class (this is relevant because rangers are already amazing on sidenodes, and this pretty much solidifies that role).
Power can run 6/6/6/0/0 with Remorseless, Quickdraw, and Wilderness Knowledge but honestly in a power build and the lack of constant swapping (you play more for positioning with the longbow), unless you are running around dueling, you won’t get as much “play” out of that setup.
However, with 6/0/6/6/0, you pick up through some traiting options the ability to perma-maintain fury, swiftness, and regen, the regen even with no power being significant to play off of Oakheart Salve for inherent damage reduction, and the “upgraded” power build will cover all of the weakness it currently has, mainly, it won’t get blown up by other zerkers, and may even have the upper hand in places where it currently doesn’t, while also having the potential to give the entire team those same boons at a permanent or near permanent uptime, which is much, much more utility than the power build currently brings.
If you need, I’ll write out in full detail these full builds, but for the moment, I figured this much info would be enough to piece together the relevant traits and weapons. It will take me some in game testing over the next week to get a feel for what is strong and what isn’t and how that plays against what other people end up playing, but there are definitely options.
The only thing you are really locked into is Wilderness Survival. Really, any trait combo utilizing the appropriate weapons and amulets with Wilderness Survival has some sort of potential (I listed the ones I see with the most potential right now).
Let’s be honest about Tuesday’s patch … it’s quite likely going to be followed by some balance patches. Accept it and go with it. It is a game after all … and an MMO … these things are part of it.
Well we definitely won’t see a balance patch until probably long after “the dust has settled” after the actual HoT release.
Like, and I haven’t really been seeing many people thinking of tomorrow’s patch in this manner, but even if the word balance gets used, this honestly doesn’t look like any sort of “balance” patch I’ve ever seen. More than anything, it’s a system revamp where ANet is going back and prettying up the old framework and preparing it for the new system in order to place the new elite specializations and future system for additional specializations in place.
In some regard, I actually think that a lot of the changes we’ll see tomorrow won’t be in any sort of context until we see all of the elite specializations. In a sense, we will be playing “incomplete” classes until HoT.
To some degree, I actually feel bad for the really competitive PvP’ers. The 3rd party tournaments and the WTS are still happening, and the metagame will be on very unsteady ground, with whatever “meta” that comes from tomorrows changes being the shortest lived PvP metagame in the lifespan of GW2’s release.
Overall though I think that we’re getting good changes, I think that every class will have some sort of build they can bring to the table until HoT releases, and I think that we just have to bunker down on the “torch and pitchfork” reactions and wait until HoT drops and we can judge all of the classes as complete versions of themselves in the new system.
Personally, I see that there was a substantial amount of power creep set in motion, and while that bothers me with my thoughts on how things should be balanced (creep bad, nerf good lol), to make a full opinion on what needs to be nerfed at this point before HoT would just be a waste of effort and in some ways, potentially futile.
Unnecessarily long post that ended up babbling on about nothing really valuable, sorry lol.
Watching the pre-recorded duels from the livestream grouch did, the DH longbow seemed extremely prone to being sidestepped and overall difficult to put out reliable damage with against an aware opponent.
So no, not really even making any sort of potential threat list fot me.
Did anybody actually notice how abysmal the range is on Beastly Warden? It was used on the heavy golem and as far as I could tell didn’t even affect the nearest golem. It seemed approximately 240-300 radius at most.
I mean, I didn’t exactly think it would be game changing personally, but to me that seemingly awful range pretty much solidified my initial thoughts on taking it over any other option.
The stream was terrible anyhow. The guy doing the DPS stream had almost zero game knowledge as to how ANY of the classes are currently played meta, let alone how they’ll end up being played.
He based a ton of what he showed on his opinion, and his opinions were really wrong in almost every case.
The stream literally would have been better off if he had just stopped talking, and then showcased the tooltip with every individual trait and showed examples of it working against golems.
The guy was just clueless and had no idea how to play OR to build.
I’d say that at this point, since groups will still want Frost Spirit, the only way NM even has a shot is if Nature’s Vengeance is somehow amazing.
Other than that, BM has the more efficient opportunity cost (it honestly still will even if Vengeance is amazing from an individual standpoint).
Only way Poison Master will compete is if druid line brings in condition manipulation as well or if the trait itself gets changed to somehow remove conditions.
Maybe add “also, whenever you apply poison, transfer 1 condi to the target. 1 second ICD” with the ICD preventing shortbow shotgunning from removing 5 condis per use lol.
I know it doesn’t functionally comply with the theme of Poison Master or how necros are the only class with transfers, but the idea itself is more to represent what type of function is needed to even make a run for that trait slot.
First, I agree with the sentiment. I immediately looked at this trait, competing with QuickDraw (or really ANYTHING competing for best in slot with quickdraw, but especially this) and went “nope, never.”
Second, this should be our own “executioner” style trait where we get an hp% huge damage bonus (20% damage boost), but give it the twist of being based off our hp pool instead of what we are hitting (like a cornered animal fighting its way out to survive I guess lol).
Regardless, it’d have to be something pretty significant to compete with Quickdraw.
Um, with the new changes the pet can keep up much better with a strafing enemy. Remember, it will get a 30% speed increase, 20% CD reduction on its abilities and if you are going for a power build you can get zephyr for super speed on pet and for kiting.
Not to mention that you do not have to spec into MM anymore if you want a functioning Longbow. Playing a power build and going into WS,NM and BM is viable, is it not? Clarion bond is cool and all but what will you use it to blast on? You do not need pet swiftness either due to the 30% speed boost. Opening strikes is bad and quite honestly you will get nothing out of predators and steady aim. Lead the Wind is not needed. The whole line is worth it for either LtW or Remorseless but I would argue that you will get far more value out of the other lines.
I am aching to try this build in PvP:
WS:
-Oakheart salve, Refined toxins (only for the negative healing effect), Wilderness mastery
NM:
-Instinctual reaction, Evasive purity and Nature ward
BM:
-GftE, Natural healing and Zephyr swapPets: Fern hound and Jungle stalker
utilities: TU, Zephyr, LR, XXX, Entangle
Just to bring up a few things you mentioned, Clarions will be amazing because with the right traits from NM, you’ll essentially have perma-fury and swiftness, definitely so if warhorn is being run as well.
Couple that with WS and you essentially get a perma-5% damage reduction with oakheart on top of having perma-regen from windborne notes, and of course having Wilderness Knowledge to play off of Remorseless, which is mainly there since without any boon countering, Vuln is the mechanic we have to use to up our damage against boon heavy classes (Remorseless will actually be amazing with Skirmishing and Wilderness Knowledge on a condi build, or a GS burst based build).
And all that is on top of the 33% protection uptime and weakness output for Protective Ward hahaha.
Besides those few things though, I totally agree with the sentiment that BM looks amazing (if the traits have been done right as far as the range of the F2 traits and where in the anination they kick in). ANet has finally done for our “mechanic traitline” what most other classes have going for theirs; a reason and viable way to pick the traitline on any build and have it be a useful choice that boosts the mechanics effectiveness.
Very exciting for builds for sure!
Just for the record, “shout” builds really won’t need Guard anymore with the changes to heal as one, unless the boon uptime is too short when not specced for NM and they want/need permanent durations.
Still, especially with NM, Heal as One traited is 12 second durations on a 16 second cooldown, which is enough for people to still run any utility bar they want and not have to worry about taking Guard. You’d be able to run a standard Wilderness Knowledge utility bar with Heal as One traited and have none of the drawbacks that doing so with just Guard as the shout has, with the only real reason not to run this whole setup being a potentially more effective trait split.
Other than that, my only sentiments are that Healing Spring just got a whole lot harder to slot for me, especially with Druid bringing it even more eventual competition.
6/6/6/0/0 will be one of the best damage options for both power and condition builds.
6/0/6/6/0 will probably be the best power build taking into consideration how it will function against other meta builds versus how power ranger playstyle is most effective (as in, Quickdraw is amazing but a typical power build tends to not swap weaponsets often enough to take advantage of it and NM+Clarion in MM gives the power build the utility it needs that is otherwise currently keeping it from being a meta contender).
0/6/6/6/0 is also an option for both power and condition builds, but particularly effective on an evasion tank style build with Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch (6/6/6/0/0 would have similar evasive abilities but less damage “sponge” ability in trade for more condition damage output with the vulnerability changes).
6/0/6/0/6, 0/6/6/0/6 and 0/0/6/6/6 will all be alternatives and options for the things I’ve mentioned, but will definitely need testing to see when the F2 traits trigger in their animations they trigger to see how “on demand” they are, because the more on demand they are, the better those traits get.
The only limitation I see on builds is having to go Wilderness for now. Outside of that, with the right combination of stats and weapons corresponding to the traits, any 2 lines combined with Wilderness has potential, and the only way we’ll know for sure is to see how the builds all function and mold them to fit wherever the shortest meta period lands (the shortest meta period foreseeable being next week until expansion drop).
I don’t think traps are going to see competitive play for a team slot at all when you look at how it compares to things like the revamped bomb engi. .
I just really don’t see Beastly Warden on the changes to the BM having any of the answers rangers needed at a competitive level.
for BW, im assuming at least 300 range, instant cast, 3-5 target limit. if it’s anything less than this, I will join our other fellow rangers and cry in a corner.
i’ll briefly explain why 0/0/6/6/6 may be competitive. firstly, barkskin. it helps with various openers. secondly, Protective Ward as it also helps with taking burst damage. thirdly, an aoe taunt that will force people to blow their defensive CD’s or eat my bird’s kitten F2 (on light and medium armor respectively). and it’s just an awesome aoe CC to take the pressure off. basically, we’re taking the already strong settler condi bunker, giving it significantly more survivability against openers/burst, buffing its condi damage (poison stacking), and if that’s not enough giving it survivable and responsive pets (birds) with pbaoe blind, weakness and taunt on F2.
regarding traps, I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I just feel the knockdown on spike trap is too good, and trap condi damage got buffed.
Just made an edit by the way to the post you’re responding to. Don’t know if you saw it yet or not but it might add some hopefully helpful clarity.
The follow-up/tl;dr version would be me saying that I completely understand the theory behind the build and am definitely not discounting it, but it will for sure be something I have to test to see how exactly it functions first.
Some of these options, like Quickdraw and Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch don’t need any testing. You can just look at them and go “yeah, that’s strong” hahaha.
Heck, I still remember back in the day when an “old pro” Battosai told me to run offhand dagger because the “it’s so many evasion frames it’s OP for its cooldown,” and now we have quickdraw to reduce that cooldown lol.
I actually see a lot of competitive value to the changes and really think that rangers are getting overall buffed, even though, just as I had no hope for traps or spirits, I was right in that regard because neither option is even remotely competitive now.
you really aren’t right about traps. at all. and all of your builds seem to exclude Beastly Warden, which is really silly.
I don’t think traps are going to see competitive play for a team slot at all when you look at how it compares to things like the revamped bomb engi. It isn’t that I don’t think they are good, it’s that I honestly don’t think a build built around them is comparatively good enough to be taken over a different classes options.
As for Beastly Warden, I didn’t include it because there just isn’t enough known about it as far as the actual range of the skill and when exactly it fires off on the animation or if things like Expertise Training are going to affect it (they should but you never know how it’ll be coded). It also doesn’t synergize well with most of the pets currently used at a competitive level, which means another layer of testing has to then be done on how well the new traits work with the viable pets (birds) that can take advantage of the trait often enough for it to be worth it’s opportunity cost.
The entire concept of traiting for BM still relies on the idea that pets are both consistent and reliable, and the honest truth is that pets are neither of those things against skilled players, and then the factor on top of that is that even if we assume perfect reliability and consistency, what about adding a short control effect and a few other functionally minor effects to our current condition builds output makes it competitive with any of the things other builds can do.
I just really don’t see Beastly Warden on the changes to the BM having any of the answers rangers needed at a competitive level.
That doesn’t mean I’m right though lol. Like Sebrent said, there’s a lot of assumptions being made at this point.
Beastly Warden and traiting for the new BM line in general is one of those things I’d just have to see work for top level competitive play to believe it. I KNOW it will be good for duels or 1v1s or even 2v2s, but Rangers have never had issue with either of those things. The two main things our builds have struggled with are team fighting and/or staying alive against common zerker hardcounters for power builds like thief/guardian.
I think that regardless, the changes have addressed those weaknesses.
Edit: Also, those were just the builds I chose to share lol. I have quite a few splits in mind, I just chose to talk about the ones I think are the most promising. But here, my list so far:
6/6/6/0/0
6/0/6/6/0
6/0/6/0/6
0/6/6/6/0
0/6/6/0/6
0/0/6/6/6
Basically all of them have either the option of power or condition, and I didn’t think me posting my 5+ page list breakdown of condition formulas for level 80 damage, potential builds on other classes, all of our new traits and all of the best in slot or competing slot options, and then all of the builds I’ve theorycrafted out so far with much too much detail on all of the choices made and the focus on how to play the build lol.
I mean, clearly I’ll get around to sharing all that eventually, but I have to save some of it for when the podcast starts back up and then refine it through testing when the patch drops lol.
(edited by jcbroe.4329)
Actually, it is sort of ironic I suppose that I complain forever about the old “create a spike trap when you start reviving an ally trait” only for the trait to have been more useful with the buffed up Spike trap knocking people down.
I mean, it still wouldn’t have been the MOST optimal, but with the new knockdown, that trait would have finally made sense lol.
Lol we HATE venom share as a collective. The 2 thieves is for stealth opening on groups. We run 2 5 man groups as our “main” backline and add more as people are online, but the main group is the core players, and the 2 thieves are mostly just there for Refuging the other ranger, myself, and all of our eles and necros, and as far as I know, both of our thieves are running Panic Strike (6/0/2/0/6).
Aside from that opener, I rarely even see the thieves we run again. One of the thieves and I target call, so I’ll see a target he throws up from time to time, but other than that, I’m usually grouped up with our backline with the other ranger coordinating spikes against the enemy backline or thieves. I’m actually primarily on thief duty as specified by the guild leader in order to keep pressure off of our casters, so I tend to let the thief call targets while I focus on what I’m supposed to be doing and swap to other targets or target calling when I can’t.
But to answer your question, we aren’t running 5 rangers simply because it was my job to recruit other rangers and all of the ones I was confident in asking and online at the time were unavailable for it or on different servers and unwilling to switch.
But we would run a full 5 man ranger group with the right players, absolutely.
@jcbroe: what do you think about where the ranger will fall in the dungeon meta? I definitely agree with you on the idea that ranger is going to be in a good place in pvp. I can see a few builds already that’ll have strong synergy and team support however a lot of that is gained by sacrificing power damage. I’m not sure if those builds or anything like it will transfer to pve.
I’m going to be honest and say upfront that I’m not the most well-versed at the PvE aspects of the game lol.
That being said, although some modifiers have been lost, I think that PvE won’t end up changing for rangers all that much, in the sense that groups will still want Spotter and Frost Spirit.
My best guess is that it will go 6/6/0/6/0 with Sword/Axe and either GS or LB depending on preference/content:
Clarion Bond Steady Focus Predator’s Onslaught
Sharpened Edges Spotter Quickdraw
Bountiful Hunter Windborne Notes/Vigorous Training Nature’s Vengeance
Ideally, Clarion Bond remains a blast for blasting fields so you can get in combat and immediately buff everybody with a pet swap while blasting any fields. If not, it shouldn’t be a problem in the long run, it’s still utility. Sharpened Edges even without condition damage because bleed stacks to 1500 now so any added damage output from it should help. Quickdraw can be used on the axe skills for faster cooldowns and damage boosts as well as the GS swap for Maul or the LB swap for Barrage or Rapid Fire. Bountiful Hunter for maximizing damage output on you and your pet. Vigorous Training would be the worse of the options for overall DPS since you wouldn’t want to swap too often because you’re beefing up the pet with might stacking, but the other trait is a swap trait as well, and Evasive Purity is the least potentially useful, so I’d say its really up to long regen or short vigor support for the group. Lastly, we have to cross our fingers and hope the boon pulses are strong for frost spirit, otherwise, I’d say for NM you wind up using Protective Ward, which has it’s benefits, but overall there would be better things.
Now, if the spirit changes prove to be too much or Nature’s Vengeance is too awful, somebody might do the math and potentially discover that the new BM line is more beneficial line to take for damage output, but I’ll let Brazil or somebody else figure all the actual stuff out.
Overall though I don’t see how the changes are going to change that much about where rangers fit into the PvE spectrum, which is that while we don’t bring the highest tier options to a group, we do have options, and that it’s more of a community perspective than anything that really hurts rangers outside of speed run builds which I seriously doubt ranger has gained any ground at becoming more optimal than the current top tier speed running classes/builds haha.
Rangers will have the ability, with Quickdraw, to use 2 consecutive Swoops or Sword 2 leap chains, combined at any point with Lightning Reflexes for another leap and a CC counter as well.
Now, I’m not arguing that it’s top tier escape mobility, but if all of that isn’t enough, then the person is in an unwinnable situation or completely out of position to begin with and is very justly getting punished for not playing better.The CD on Lightning reflexes is what? So I do this and just go hide in a keep until it is back up? Does swoop remove immob or can I trait it to do so in some way? Maybe I’m lucky and avoid the first thief but what about number 2 or 3? Again not bashing skill level but sheer numbers on low teir servers do not have the number of enemies that higher tier servers do. There is a reason Rangers are not part of the comp EVER when concidering top teir server builds. They just do not compete. Not saying rangers are bad but it takes a very talented individual to take a ranger of any spec into a zerg and emerge. Maybe this is why your opinion and the other guys opinion do not match up. I am on SoS server and a lot of the time we are outmanned and the other servers have map ques on OUR BL. When we take 35-40 and hit a group of 60 a ranger is an easy target and there is no tucking tail and running. You literally cannot strafe around a blob that fat. You have to double dodge it then you are left there trying to absorb and heal in the blast and with the low armor and low endurance regen you simply cannot get into the water field and reset there is no time to do so so you have to stay out alone in most cases. Eles are dropping fire storm while moving and rangers casting barrage are stuck in one spot. so either you do nothing but run or you get LUCKY and rain arrows. So many skills need reworks and need to be brought back into independant tiers of weapon skills. Why is barrage the ONLY skill where you MUST remain stationary while eles get a similar skill they can cast while moving?
…Eles are stationary while they cast Meteor Shower as well, unless you are talking about a different skill. Barrage is bad skill to cast on a group in most cases anyhow since you can literally insta-kill yourself from retaliation.
Aside from that, I don’t know what else to tell you. I myself play ranger for my guild on CD. My particular subgroup is 2 thieves, 2 rangers, and either a mesmer or a ele depending on who’s on. We make a 30-40 man group, or we GvG at about 25v25, and I can honestly say that I can’t recall the last time the other ranger, myself, or anybody in my damage group even went down, let alone died, even when we were up against 60-80 man blobs lol.
And that’s right now, without the improved ability to escape.
Now, a lot of the credit goes to our other members, because somehow our small subgroup goes largely unnoticed until it’s too late for the groups we run into, but the other side of it is positioning and awareness. A rangers job in a group isn’t blob damage, it’s anti-thief and anti-periphery duty.
All I can really do though is give you my experience on it. You don’t have to believe me or take my word for it, was only ever trying to give advice and help.
Rangers will have the ability, with Quickdraw, to use 2 consecutive Swoops or Sword 2 leap chains, combined at any point with Lightning Reflexes for another leap and a CC counter as well.
Now, I’m not arguing that it’s top tier escape mobility, but if all of that isn’t enough, then the person is in an unwinnable situation or completely out of position to begin with and is very justly getting punished for not playing better.Maybe I’m mistaken but that is def not the way I read quickdraw. I read it as the next skill after swapping weapons recharges 66% faster… not instanly. Again while doing DPS all it takes is one basilik thief to steal from 1200 apply the basilik venom and it’s GG when 50 plus run right into you. You can call that whatever you like and I’ll openly say if that makes me untalented then so be it. My pet may take the first disable that’s all well and good but basilik will have 2 charges default now. SoR triggers every 10 seconds or once activated and chances are if you try to stealth with longbow your arrow will miss at close range like it ALWAYS does. Stability nullifies the knockback so you are still left there getting swarmed where under no circumstances do you have ANY chance where as with my warrior/thief/ele/engi/guard I could usually find a way out or at the very least inflict a decent amount of damage.
It’s a 4 second cooldown on swoop. Swap, use swoop, use lightning reflexes, use swoop again. If you use mainhand sword with quickdraw, it’ll be about a 2 second recharge. Either option gives you more initial mobility options than warrior GS or any of the options you mentioned.
After that initial escape though, you’ll definitely be slower in the long run. Still, that initial escape should be more than enough to get out of any potentially bad situation when you react at the right time.
It is extremely unreasonable to expect any class to get away from a 50 man blob though unless you have perma-stealth or the most incredible headstart imaginable.
Rangers will have the ability, with Quickdraw, to use 2 consecutive Swoops or Sword 2 leap chains, combined at any point with Lightning Reflexes for another leap and a CC counter as well.
Now, I’m not arguing that it’s top tier escape mobility, but if all of that isn’t enough, then the person is in an unwinnable situation or completely out of position to begin with and is very justly getting punished for not playing better.
@Sebrent;
While I do agree in the sense that nothing is certain until it’s certain, looking through all of the changes, I think we can readily predict what each individual classes meta-build will be, at least to the degree that we’ll be able to kitten the competition.
Eles: Arcane and Water will still be cookie cutter. The choice of the 3rd will depend on weapon choice, but the builds won’t ultimately play different than how the builds currently perform.
Guardians: Valor and Virtues with the optional 3rd, still mediguard. It’ll be a bit more potent, but it will still be the same build we’re used to seeing.
Mesmer: still Domination and Dueling shatters with an optional 3rd depending on weapon choice (chaos for staff, illusions for sword/torch, and of course always GS)
Necro: power will probably be spite, blood magic, and soul reaping. Condi will be Curses and Soul Reaping for certain, with an optional third.
Thief: Deadly Arts and Trickery with either Shadow Arts or Acrobatics, although an argument could be made for Critical Strikes, even though that sacrifices much needed condi-removal. Still backstab, although an gimmicky S/D build could arise, but either will play equivalently to currently.
Warrior and Engineer are where it gets interesting.
Warrior: Shoutbow will be stronger than ever utility wise, but loses some of its capabilities from the celestial nerf. However, it will have more utility potency with Tactics, Defense, and Discipline than ever. BUT, it gets more damage options from traits to the point where power/zerk warrior can make a real comeback with Strength, Defense, and Discipline. It could potentially return us to a double warrior meta.
Engineer: Engineer, on the other hand, has their options more spread out than previously and is the biggest wildcard imo. Firearms is almost a certainty regardless of the final build, but are engis going to go power or condi, is HGH coming back or are kit heavy builds here to stay. Really, engineers are the biggest variable right now.
The biggest unknown is team composition though. Is it going to be more damage oriented or more tanky oriented.
Regardless, Rangers definitely have a fighting chance this time around, really no matter where the meta settles.
It’s just that people here seem to think that this was supposed to be some huge, crazy, foundation of the game shaking balance patch, when all it’s ever been is a revamp to lay down the groundwork for the arrival of elite specializations with HoT, and THEN I think we’ll see some real shake-ups in the metagame.
I will openly admit though that I’m just speculating and providing and opinion lol. I mean, I remember laughing at spirit builds and then without any additional buffs or changes from that point, spirit builds shocked me and went on to become meta and the most despised build in competitive play lol, so anything can happen.
I 100% don’t see full trap builds getting any high end play though. I mean… Bonfire is STILL better than flame trap lol, and spike trap seems like the only one worth anything.
I actually see a lot of competitive value to the changes and really think that rangers are getting overall buffed, even though, just as I had no hope for traps or spirits, I was right in that regard because neither option is even remotely competitive now.
I actually haven’t even finished writing out all the new potential build combinations that would have decent enough working parts to work in competitive play, but I do think that I’ve been able to see the most promising options available so far so I’ll list those off as examples:
Power: While there will be higher damage builds, the reason why zerker ranger (and mesmer and necro and etc) struggle in the metagame is the prevalence of the (now superbuffed) Panic Strike thief build combined with the thieves insane, untouched mobility, allowing thieves to eat most zerker builds alive and keep them constantly dead and out of the match. Rangers, however, compared to the other classes that will still be held out of the meta by thieves, will be able to use:
6/0/6/6/0:
Clarion Bond Moment of Clarity Remorseless
Oakheart Salve Shared Anguish Wilderness Knowledge
Bountiful Hunter Windborne Notes Protective Ward
We’re looking at a build that covers that weakness of why zerker ranger is currently not a part of the meta, which is the ability to survive and even 1v1 common zerker metabuilds if necessary (thief and guardian), and bring the team utility that’s been lacking, ESPECIALLY perma-fury. It definitely has the tools it needs to compete within the current and potential future metagame (which won’t really see many builds change on any of the meta classes with the next patch except for engis). The weapons for this could be LB and blade (GS, Sword/Warhorn, Sword/Dagger, etc).
On the other hand, we have a few options for conditions, especially with Skirmishing making “evasion tank” builds so capable:
6/6/6/0/0
Clarion Bond Brutal Seals Remorseless
Sharpened Edges Hidden Barbs Quickdraw
Oakheart Salve Ambidexterity Wilderness Survival
This is the new bleeder build, and it has some serious potential between Hidden Barbs and the changes to vulnerability. If not running Rabid, switch Sharpened Edges to Primal Reflexes. Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch or the reverse (Sword/Dagger Axe/Torch). Quickdraw makes evasive weapon skills abundant, and if taking primal reflexes, the amount of sheer evasion is going to be incredibly potent. And if somehow, this build doesn’t have enough survival:
0/6/6/6/0
Primal Reflexes Hidden Barbs Quickdraw
Oakheart Salve Ambidexterity Wilderness Survival
Bountiful Hunter Vigorous Training Protective Ward
Honestly, what’s going to be able to kill you on something like this? The other build is the more optimal split between offense and defense, but really, the NM investment pretty much solidifies that no other individual should be able to kill you, assuming equal skill.
I see these builds having a fighting chance at team slots in the metagame.
We’ve honestly discussed this to death by now lol. It’s actually a huge reason why I haven’t been around, the game has essentially forced me on hiatus until more information gets revealed about the druid and finalized trait setups, and that’s at the very least.
Rangers, at least, pure condi builds, aren’t even necessarily weak right now, they are just “meta weak” with shoutbow on every team. I can pretty safely speculate that the situation won’t even change post expansion, since there seems to be no sign of the main offender builds that hold condition builds out of the metagame right now getting any worse, and even more classes will be getting tools they don’t have now through specs and integrated mechanics and new features like resistance to deal with conditions.
Power builds will always suffer the same stigma unless something significantly changes, which is that it isn’t necessarily that power builds are bad or ineffective, there are just other team options you can take that are more effective.
The fact is, from everything we know so far, neither of those positions will change. That doesn’t mean that good players are incapable of succeeding or doing well, but it does mean that they would be contributing more by playing something else, and that’s honestly been more of a power creep issue up until now.
One of the few things I can already see happening with the new trait systems is ranger having the ability to run tankier through traits without sacrificing damage and being able to provide perma-AoE fury/swiftness/regen which is more than what we have now and could see some niche use.
Outside of that, staff, druid, and the traps and spirit reworks need to be significant in order for rangers to be worth slotting over any of the other classes in PvP.
I do at least want to drive home the point that I am not saying ranger is bad or that we should all switch or that playing one isn’t worthwhile. Clearly it is my main and this is the community I choose to be a part of, and I will continue to push my own abilities and bring ideas to the table and push the class to its limits, along with everybody else here.
I just think that from a top tier competitive aspect, we don’t have the tools to compete for a slot versus other classes and from what we’ve been shown, we more than likely won’t. Not without some sort of major, significant addition in boon support (providing or removing) and AoE capability (revised traps, staff, new utility family).
All that being said, with those last few ideas, ANet has enough opportunity to provide those few missing keys to once again make ranger a driving, top tier competitive force, so don’t let my own pessism on their ability to do just that be the sole takeway lol.
Depends if the Staff or new utilities give any sort of mobility or not.
It’s expected that the Staff will be sort of a midrange cleaving weapon/AoE-ish weapon, but my personal consensus is:
I’m also curious whether or not it’s going to be power based or condition based. Guardian surprised me by not getting a condition based option (expected the bow to be more like Warriors which is condition hybrid), and so far, not a single condition heavy weapon has been revealed, so either ANet is forgoing that route entirely, or somebody is going to be the lucky (unlucky) winner of a brand new condition weapon.
Aren’t they removing racial skills when HoT drops? I’ve seen that tidbit of information being passed around but never bothered confirming.
I have a sneaking suspicion that EB will be able to combo with traits introduced by the druid line.
If not, I don’t know that it isn’t GM worthy necessarily, I just feel that in general, its functionality going forward is a bit too archaic seeming.
I really think that it should be changed to be made part of the “pet swap” traits, and have it remove 3 conditions on pet swap (not transfer, remove), which obviously would be an interval nerf but a usability and reliability buff, and would add even more incentive to build for that particular playstyle, where as right now the idea of Empathic Bond kind of just hurts the ranger “forced pet” theme where we have to play with this AI entity, but have to make it less efficient with this trait in order to survive. Survival of the Fittest was thankfully a step forward, but even then, you can’t utilize that trait on every build, and your only other option is to decrease effective play for survival.
I have a human ranger myself. I’ve been thinking about pouring some of my infinite supply of tomes of knowledge into an asuran ranger, but I have to imagine that as far as aesthetics go, the humans just look better in medium armors.
Honestly, it really depends. Gameplay benefit wise, I’d say humans tend to have a more “natural” field of view, however, there is a reason why PvP pushed for a generic display setting for competitive environments and up until then tried to ban asura models from every tournament possible (animations don’t always match effect ranges in the most beneficial possible way for the asura player you can imagine).
Theme wise, I’ve always personally felt that Asura are the least likely race to embrace the idea of being a ranger, or any sort of primarily martial class, but that is entirely dependent on how much that sort of thing matters to you when you play (I personally just want to have the coolest looking character I can make, regardless of race, except for saladvaris, who are pretty all around lame imo).
I’d say that one of the more basic ideas is to “follow the team fight.”
Granted, it isn’t always the best option, but it is an option that has the least risk as far as “throwing the game” is concerned (compared to somebody that plays suicide farpoint and never gets the decap/cap).
Basically, if you die, just take a look at the map and see where your team is or the majority of the players on your team are, and take a glance at your party information and try to understand whether you should push to them or not. Generally speaking, if you see your team about to all drop into downstate, you probably want to rotate out to a different area to try to break enemy team map control. However, if it seems like your team is holding their own, you’d want to +1 the fight and hopefully win it, and then push with your team from there.
In general, unless you are having to carry your team (which WILL happen if you are solo queued from time to time), you can pretty reliably depend on rotating out of base this way.
The other thing you can do from time to time is to just rotate with somebody else who died or is about to die from the base, unless one of you is going for a free cap. But in general, you can both reinforce a fight or create a 2v1 somewhere, which has immense value.
There are a lot of nuances to rotational strategy though. Maybe not nuances, that probably isn’t the right word (more like particulars and conditionals), but still.
Something that could potentially be helpful to you is honestly just watching the right livestream. Not to say that other players don’t make mistakes, and you absolutely have to find the right people to watch, but in general, I’d say that if you can find Chaith or Phantaram streaming on twitch, they reason out a lot of their rotating and positioning when they are talking through their gameplay (which they both do and most other streamers that I can think of don’t). Regardless of which class these guys play, they are pretty good at covering the general strategy behind the decisions they make (why the pushed far, why they are doing what they are doing, where they are going on spawn, etc). I think that both seeing the gameplay from another persons perspective (who isn’t bad at the game) and hearing them reason out their playing has sort of a “contact high” sensation where you learn through them simply by experiencing what they experience and hearing what they think.
Just my 2 cents though, I hope all that advice you are getting helps!
These are actually really nice traits.
My mesmer is looking to be really entertaining and have lots of shiny new options after the expansion finally drops!
Just curious though, maybe because it’s not the class I spend the most time on, but it doesn’t seem like many options have changes for mesmer to counter condi (cancer) builds, which is currently one of my main gripes when playing on my mesmer.
Maybe there are ways of dealing with them better and I’m just not seeing them?
I actually mentioned the same concept of crit sigils not being able to proc on autoattack and had a bunch of people instantly jump down my throat and say “blah blah break the sigils blah blah RNG carries me blah blah please don’t nerf my crutch.”
So yes, totally in support. Any time we can remove RNG and make the game more reaction based and skillful, we should.
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