Guild Wars 2

I just think they got the Claw of Jormag timer and the Teq timer reversed. It only took 15 minutes out of 30 to kill Claw on my server, but in the same 15 minutes, teq ended consistently at above 75% after 15 minutes.

People keep saying “oh, it’s a raid style content,” and that’s fine, if it was designed as a raid. But it isn’t, it’s an open world boss, with an open amount of participation. People that are poorly geared and/or poorly skilled can take the spot of others who would be more of an asset and more coordinated, and the thing is, everybody else shouldn’t be punished for that just because a few lackluster people want to participate and have fun.

Open world and raid content are really just contrasting mechanisms at that point.

luckywaldo.6089:

Brutal Arts.6307:

VOLKON.1290:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Aeros.2046:

This is what we asked for.

I never asked for this.

ANet was kind enough to make it optional.

Optional? Than wheres my old teq that involves me standing at his foot and giving him a pedicure until he needs another nap.

Optional would imply I had the option to do old teq or new teq. If I wanted a challenge I’d go play a non-MMO, I went to world bosses for free ecto’s.

Optional implies that there isn’t any reason to beat him important to the rest of the game, like BiS gear. Which is exactly the case.

And MMO’s SHOULD be difficult in a way that gets people to interact and cooperate. I’ve run champ trains, and the only reason anyone talks is because we are so bored out of our minds we talk to relieve it. Now people are talking on how they can improve their builds, how they can improve their approach, and work together to take on a challenge.

It’s excellent, and it’s a shame that the game has trained people up to this point to think they deserve rewards just for showing up.

Who’s to say every single one of us thinks we deserve rewards just for showing up?

The current issue that my server is experiencing is population. Even if we were able to be 100% perfect with tactics, there aren’t enough people carrying enough DPS to complete the event in the given time frame. Now, it’s all well and good to tell people they need to change their builds and gear to complete the event.

But then again, it’s only one event in a sea of many other things to do, which for most players, means that they aren’t going to invest their time and in game money into completing just that one event when they are currently able to complete the rest of the games content.

Basically, you can’t force people to play the way it’s going to take to complete the event, especially when you need to fit more DPS inside a time frame. The time frame needs to be extended in that case, or removed in favor of events that need to be completed in order to the event to not fail. That way, it still requires organization in order for the event to be successful, but doesn’t punish the casual player for wanting to participate while at the same time punishing the group for that individual being a hindrance to the event.

Otherwise, it should be entirely instanced, so that people who are truly serious about the event can still organize and have a fair go at it, and remain unaffected by the actions of players that would cause the event to fail.

FoopOplo.7914:

Wait, not fun? Because it’s a challenge? It’s day 1 and some server have almost killed it already without a lot of time to coordinate or strategize. Give it some time, and people will kill it.

Autoattacking dragon’s toes isn’t “fun” for the rest of us, sorry.

Casty.9743:

clint.5681:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Aeros.2046:

This is what we asked for.

I never asked for this.

Then dont do it

Look at that nice circular logic.

VOLKON.1290:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Aeros.2046:

This is what we asked for.

I never asked for this.

ANet was kind enough to make it optional.

It was already optional.

Now it just isn’t fun.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Aeros.2046:

This is what we asked for.

I never asked for this.

I would like to second this sentiment.

Okay, well, the reason why I’m asking is because even with the the forge runes, the carrion version of the build is, as it was put, “rock/paper/scissor’d” by the thief build, and burst builds in general.

A solution to this is to just carry a Shamans amulet to swap out for the Carrion, and an Axe/Dagger to switch out for the shortbow. You can do this in the middle of the game in hotjoins, but if you’re in a tournament, you kind of have to read the other teams composition to know whether or not its going to be a matchup where you need more toughness or more vitality, and switch accordingly before gear and traits and such get locked in.

Because in general, the Carrion build is better against high condition output teams, because the vitality is a buffer for the condition damage. However, because of it’s low toughness levels, and it’s reliance on sustained damage output and less burst than axe/dagger, it is at a disadvantage against the thief who is built to avoid as much damage as possible while jumping in and out of melee range, doing as much damage as possible.

The axe/dagger allows you to have lots of readily available evasion frames (dagger 4) and landing a splitblade or dagger 5 (or both) is going to be a lot better against the thief than anything you can do with the shortbow, since the shortbow is very incapable of bursting conditions comparatively.

Just a thought. I realized if it was the carrion setup, you would be fighting an uphill battle regardless.

I’m assuming the other weaponset is sword/dagger?

The timer doesn’t even make sense (imo). The dragon lands, it attacks, and if it fails, it just says “why bother” and flies away? What?

Isn’t the dragon invading Sparkfly Fen? If the players can’t beat it, why would the dragon leave? I would assume that it would start taking over the area, bringing in more troops and reinforcements, and push farther into the area. Not just leave and say “here’s some rotmouths cuz you lost, trololol.”

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

Not to harp on the ridiculousness of the teq fight itself, but has anybody found a useful pet combination yet? The most useful I’ve been able to get my pet to be, is for me to take a position off to the side of Teq with piercing arrows (give an idea on the strategy I’m referencing: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/tequatl/Guide-Damaging-Tequatl-Guide/first#post2860449) and have the pet attacking Fingers.

However, if a few of them decide to AoE in my/my pets direction, it’s like a nightmare trying make sure it survives, depending on the amount of AoE fields that get thrown down, since they pulse for crazy amounts of damage for a long time, and pets can’t seem to help but wander back into them at times.

Still, with good management and awareness, the pet hasn’t died yet. Of course, my server hasn’t even gotten teq down passed 75% yet, and I already went back to champ farming, so I can’t comment on anything else.

As no pets have more than 900 range and they have a tendancy to stand in AoEs as well as an inability to avoid the water pulses … yeah, there are no good pets for the fight. >.<

I halfway want to run spirits to buff my allies, but I’ve a feeling that even traited spirits will die to the waves.

I’m honestly not even going back to teq until I see some proof that a server can reliably beat it over and over again, aka, not a last ditch struggle from the most populated servers to complete it once just for bragging rights without being able to actually confidently complete the event every time it pops.

So I’m not even going to worry about it lol. It seems like just a colossal waste of time to me, and it’s even more depressing to have to manage the hell out of my pet or just let it die over and over again, only to watch a boss lose 10-15% of its health and fly away.

Actually, let me ask, what spirit build setup are you running?

I don’t need crazy specifics, just the amulet and weapon choices.

Not to harp on the ridiculousness of the teq fight itself, but has anybody found a useful pet combination yet? The most useful I’ve been able to get my pet to be, is for me to take a position off to the side of Teq with piercing arrows (give an idea on the strategy I’m referencing: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/tequatl/Guide-Damaging-Tequatl-Guide/first#post2860449) and have the pet attacking Fingers.

However, if a few of them decide to AoE in my/my pets direction, it’s like a nightmare trying make sure it survives, depending on the amount of AoE fields that get thrown down, since they pulse for crazy amounts of damage for a long time, and pets can’t seem to help but wander back into them at times.

Still, with good management and awareness, the pet hasn’t died yet. Of course, my server hasn’t even gotten teq down passed 75% yet, and I already went back to champ farming, so I can’t comment on anything else.

Yeah lol. I was just reading through and went “wait, where did CnD come from?” That right there is actually extremely interesting if we wanted to evaluate what people think when they think about thieves.

Chopps.5047:

But with sick em you can prevent that shadow refuge retreat if you time it right. I think that’s the power of the utility.

But that’s not even the discussion right now lol. I’m not disagreeing with you. But Sic’ Em hasn’t been changed yet and when it does, it will be the tactic to deal with Shadow Refuge.

As for the rest of the fight, the thief would actually have to get damaged enough to have to use shadow refuge, meaning that up until that point, Sic’ Em isn’t the only solution versus this build. Nice plug though haha.

Especially if it’s the ridiculously annoying build I’m imagining: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsa8alcmiOXcS5E+5Eh3DyOWzqVgmdPuqWrKA-TwAg0CnIqRVjrGTNyas1MsYZxGiJEA

Or some variant.

Pvp.2758:

Axe #5 = GG

Axe #5 = GG

…What? The thief can just shadow step away again with sword 2, wait for 5 seconds, and then go right back in to what they were doing…

@Rest of thread; we do know that we’re talking about a Sword/Pistol thief, right? No daggers, no stealths except maybe the heal (which wouldn’t setup any sort of burst at all on this weapon set) and/or shadow refuge, which means that the thief is giving up the objective to heal and losing the game for their team, AND they can’t burst you from stealth.

Its a sword auto attack, a shadow step in and out, a stun into multi-hit while evading but rooted burst attack, an interrupt, and a smoke field.

Hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Chopps.5047:

Rym.1469:

Ignore him. They’re squishy, but they’ll get stealth from CnD on your pet or any of spirits anytime good thief wants and keep resetting the fight.

This comment might give us insight into why Sick Em reveal is possibly interesting as opposed to bland. I mean, I’m learning right along with you guys…that was probably obvious to a lot of you.

Except that it doesn’t make any sense for this thread because its a sword/pistol thief, which doesn’t use stealth…

Ranged weapons in this game are naturally weaker than melee, due to a “risk/reward” balance philosophy, which basically states that, all other things equal, if ranged damage is as strong as melee damage, than range is better than melee because versus a melee opponent, the range has a clear advantage and will win the fight.

But then, in practice, most melee efficient classes have access to gap closers, blocks, and etc that allow them to get in on a ranged weapon user and then “stick” to them, while half the ranged weapons in the game for classes don’t offer much defensive utility once an opponent closes in on them.

It’s one of those things where it seems like the devs are trying to tweak it still to get it just perfect, but in the meantime, it’s optimal for every class in the game to have at least one melee, or closer range, option slotted, barring engineers who are a different mechanically than the other classes.

That’s a fine tactic. If he was after the point and you left to range him up top, he would would have had to spend all his initiative avoiding your attacks to try to cap the point, at which point you’d be able to just hop back on the point and push him off because without initiative he wouldn’t be able to sit on the point with you.

Another thing would be to just avoid as many of the stuns from pistol whip as possible. If you can dodge the pistol whip, its pretty much a one trick pony setup, and they can’t really do anything else to you without getting killed themselves.

However, if he was running a Sleight of Hand build that dazed on steal before the pistol whip, that wouldn’t really be an option. He would be able to steal to you every 20 seconds, daze you, get a bunch of boons, and pistol whip you, without you really being able to do much of anything other than positioning like you mentioned, or predicting his steal and avoiding it.

I can’t give anything exact yet without knowing more about the build he was running.

For instance:
What was his other weapon set?
What heal was he using?
How was he playing? As in, was he literally jumping in, doing one Pistol Whip, and jumping out? Or would he jump in, attack as much as possible, and then get out?

You wanna see crazy autoattacks that look like warrior damage out? Try the underwater spear. I know it sounds trolly but I’m actually be serious. The spear has some great base damage values, and with a blue level 68 spear, I average 2-2.2k autoattacks.

Now, I’m assuming why the reason that the greatsword isn’t as strong as the spear is because the greatsword has Maul. But it is just one of those “for fun” type things.

On land, the weapon with the best power damage output is the 1h sword. Particularly, listen to Chopps on this one.

I wish I could see more of it, like a front view! Still, it looks like you made those shoulders work which is something I could never do. I’m gonna go with an 8/10 with the assumption that the front of the armor looks as nice as the back, and I’d probably rate higher if it wasn’t left to my poor imagination :/

Here’s me:

You’re going to want to go 30 in Wilderness for Empathic Bond to get condition removal. They SPvP game is especially condition centric right now, so the trait is one of the most useful ones you can have.

If you want pets to hold them in place, I would go with this suggestion (commonly suggested by Xsorus): Drop all the points in beastmastery, and switch your trait setup to 10/30/30/0/0 with the 10 points in Marksmanship for Malicious Training. Switch your pets to Black Widow (if you can) and Jungle Spider, or just 2 spiders in general. With this setup, the spider’s immobilize attack is ridiculously long, like 4 seconds (I think).

That would be a way to optimize what you’re going for with the build. My personal preference would also be to switch out Quickening Zephyr for either Lightning Reflexes or Signet of Renewal if you are looking to trade off for a more defensive utility. For offensive options, you can stick with QZ if it works for you. People also opt to take a 3rd trap for more offensive setups, particularly, Viper’s Nest, and remember that your traps can proc Sharpened Edges.

As far as your runes, they’re a fine variant for damage output. If you wanted though, you could either go for Forge Runes to increase protection application and toughness while also increasing Burning duration. You could also go with Melandru Runes for more toughness and condition and stun reduction, to help deal with the plethora of condition setups right now.

Just some options.

As for sigils, a really common option for traps is to either go with sigils of earth on each set to proc more bleeds on crit, or to go with a geomancy sigil on each set to get 3 PBAoE bleeds on weapon swap. For the other weapon in each set, I personally tend to prefer sigil of corruption on the dagger to get more condition damage on kills, and sigil of smoldering on torch for even more burning.

The last option you have is to switch Martial Mastery to Offhand Training. That will decrease the cooldowns on Throw Torch, Bonfire, and Dagger 5, which are 3 of your best damage skills, and Dagger 4 is one of the best defensive options the ranger has access to, while providing a very nice, long bleed. So the more of those the better.

Those are just some options you have, I hope they help.

Solandri.9640:

My issue with the change is that if you’re not using horn, our only blast finisher is on the drake pets with a 30 sec cooldown. Unless you’ve got a clock next to your screen and check the time every time a drake uses tail swipe, it’s for all intents and purposes random when the drake will use the skill.

With healing spring lasting 15 out of 30 sec, you have a 50% chance of getting a pet-induced blast finisher heal out of it.

with healing spring reduced to 10 out of 30 sec, the chance of that happening gets reduced to 33%.

If they gave us a player-controlled blast finisher on another weapon (or two) I wouldn’t have much problem with it. GS’ Maul is the most commonly requested choice, but I think GS is already a pretty well-rounded weapon. But with rangers only having one player-controlled blast finisher, I think they should reduce the cooldown on drake tail swipe to 20 sec to compensate.

That’s actually a really fair request imo.

Maybe Lightning Reflexes as a blast finisher? I mean, unfortunately, animation and function wise, their aren’t many other weapon skills outside of Maul that make sense as a blast finisher, but because greatsword already has the leap finisher, it probably won’t happen.

Maybe a trait option that turns Canine F2s into Blast Finishers? It would be similar to Call of the Wild, and Canine Howls are on long cooldowns as it is, so it wouldn’t be game-breaking.

Oh I’m not disagreeing, especially because I remember things like this: http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/september_2012_skill_balances.php

Which would also, in turn, be posted like 1 week+ before the patch actually hit at times.

What I would like to think is that the game isn’t generating enough revenue for more resources to be allocated towards communication. From my understanding, the gem store isn’t generating revenue for ANet, but mostly for NCSoft, who can then turn and use that profit towards any of their other products, like development for Wildstar. Since I can’t say what NCSoft is actually allocating the revenue towards, it is just speculation, but I believe that there are not enough resources being given to ANet to do anything other than sustain their current output.

Does that excuse the devs for not communicating on the forums? Well, no, but only to the degree that when you have no PR person/team dedicated to communicating with the vocal community, it means that developers have to try to figure out how to communicate in their spare time, and being only human, they are going to get burned out and/or make mistakes.

Right now, something that is really common is seeing Peters or McClain, and of course Grouch, discussing the game in twitch live streams. And it goes great and there is some good communication, until it starts talking about the game and upcoming features, and turns into a spam fest of people going “fix this, fix that, you broke that.” At that point, the chat is met with silence, because there is no more discussion to be had.

Is it healthy to end the discussion whenever it starts getting rough? For communications sake, no. But these are devs, and not PR reps. When we start going “fix this, fix that, etc,” really, they probably just immediately think, and want to say “we’re doing our best.” And you know what that gets met with? “Your best isn’t good enough, you suck, we need new devs.”

I mean, yes, they should be expecting that. But these people are day job workers that are now getting “it” from every end of the spectrum, and it’s easier to ignore the community than ignore your bosses.

Now, I’m not gonna go through all these text walls without having a solution to the problem lol. I mean, you can’t fix peoples viciousness, that’s for us as a community to work on. But, like guild wars 1, the easiest methodology would be to stop making forum posts out of these “blogs.” Instead, just have them solely as text write ups on the front page, with no thread created by the devs anywhere to be found. Now, it leaves it up to the community to get a discussion started about the new changes, and the moderators can simply “filter” out any spiteful and not constructive threads.

What’s ideally left is threads with constructive discussions that the now not-so-jaded devs can choose to jump into and comment on in their free time if they want to, without that being their only means of conveying the transparency the community is asking for.

Hopefully that would start to mend the current position we’re in.

Also, I’m entirely sorry for these offtopic discussions we’re having. If somebody would like to un-derail the conversation, by all means, go for it lol.

I’d say that the harshness, or lack of constructiveness behind the criticism, from not just rangers, but from almost every thread, is what has basically pushed the devs away from communicating with the profession subforums.

I mean, if you were a dev, and you popped in to and said “hey, these are our ideas so far. Just a heads up, we’re doing our best” only to get a bunch of “we hate you,” “you suck,” “you don’t know what you’re talking about,” and “dev team is terrible and dumb” responses, why even take the time to post as a dev? It isn’t helping them do their job any better to just insult them.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not saying the playerbase is wrong in feeling the way they do at times. Everybody gets frustrated. But we won’t make any progress if we keep asking the devs to be more transparent and open with the community, and then as soon as they try, absolutely tear them down, which then they have to sift through numerous personal attacks and insults in order to try to find anything constructive that they can take from the experience.

I think that a lot (I’m not singling out rangers, because it’s everywhere) of the community needs to remember that they aren’t just developers; they’re people. You can’t just insult somebody repeatedly and then expect to be able to have an open dialogue/discussion with them. And this is the devs job, which means that more than likely, most of them have bosses that shut can shut them down and at the same time are almost intolerable to work with. We don’t know what goes on in ANet. Maybe there is a silent dev that reads every thread and takes every suggestion to balance discussion meetings, but it gets shut down by higher up people.

I’m just saying, we have to start somewhere with the mutual respect. As a player, we are more than allowed to have our anger and frustration and disappointment, but taking it out on the devs, who would more than likely want nothing more than for each any every one of us to enjoy the game fully the way we want to, isn’t going to do anything but push the devs farther into silence.

I also understand if people are out of patience. But at that point, it’s time to step back, take a deep breath, and find another game to play or activity to do until you aren’t so frustrated anymore, and then check back in with guild wars 2 to see if anything has changed. Because really, anything else is just a waste of our energy.

Chopps.5047:

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

— snip —

If that’s how you truly feel, then you should join the conversation here where some “pro” thieves are causing quite a fuss over “Sic ’Em”.

Here’s a quote from that thread lol

“Ranger Dots already are a hard counter for thief.. lets give them EVEN MORE tools against. At this point I’m pretty much done with this game, between YET ANOTHER nerf and this idiotic gem grubbing League system it is clear you do not care/listen to your community”

Better call the wahbulance

What? How? I don’t even…. somebody google this man the definition of “hard counter” lol.

Vigorous Renewal isn’t Healing Spring. Healing Spring has never provided Vigor at it’s base, so that shouldn’t even be part of a deciding factor when discussing the base functionality of Healing Spring and whether or not it is being nerfed.

So, to end that discussion, yes, Vigorous Renewal got nerfed. Moving on with the Healing Spring discussion:

So now, instead of a 15s water field with a pulse every 3 that removed a condition and granted regeneration, you have 10s water field that grants the same amount of regeneration and removes the same amount of boons, but faster.

That’s a buff for the ranger player. It’s also a buff in how good Healing Spring is on it’s own as a utility skill; having a higher output of AoE regen and condi removal. On top of that, it’s still a 10 second long Water Field.

Looks to me like it’s just a better skill overall.

JonPeters.5630:

Just finished reading through all 12 pages. Thanks to everyone for 12 pages of positive and constructive feedback. Keep it up and keep in mind these are updates from just the skills team so try to focus on skills traits and other combat related stuff.

Jon

Awesome, alright good.

Just out of curiosity, how extensive are the trait changes going to be? Not asking for any specifics, but just like, on average, about how many traits are going to be receiving more than tooltip updates?

My personal wishful goal is around 5 traits per class, but that may be quite a bit compared to what’s needed/possible.

Speaking of Shout Traits spread randomly, am I the only one that would love to see Nature’s Voice in Beastmastery? Especially since Nature Magic does absolutely nothing else to improve the functionality of shouts. I mean, Warriors and Guardians get most, if not all, of their shout traits in a single trait line, why can’t rangers?

Cufufalating.8479:

I read it more as a buff, personally. I guess it depends, but 10s is still pleanty long enough to finishing and group healing, and it means you arent quite as tied down with the skill, which is its main weakness.

More front loaded regen application and faster condi removal is also pretty awesome if you as me.

One step closer to not being so reliant on Empathic Bond, anyone?

pho.9412:

where are you guys getting this information from? not like this change will effect my game play in a major way. Healing spring is still the best #6 skill. I am just curious where are you getting this info from.

It was in some leaked patch notes for a patch that is now a month away…

But besides that point, @everyone else, I guess I just fail to see how it’s a nerf. Now the condi removal stands a better chance of keeping up with the condi application.

Admittedly, it does take away a bit of group utility from the water field aspect of the skill, but in turn, it applies regen and removes condis faster from everybody in the spring; so it’s just a different type of utility really. It is unfortunate that the window for leaping through the spring is smaller. Of course, it’s still manageable to do it twice with 1h sword and martial mastery.

As for the nerf itself, that’s a Vigorous Renewal nerf. It would be different if the trait actually applied a decent duration vigor, like I believe thieves does, but hey, maybe doing that in an AoE would be too strong.

I can definitely, definitely see the cons. But I just consider it more of a change than a nerf. Hopefully it’s the first step towards getting decent condi removal outside of Empathic Bond.

Durzlla.6295:

I don’t know why people think Sic’Em is a bad ability… Do none of you have an immob or something? Jesus…. Jag pet (F2 before casting Sic’Em) + Sic’Em + muddy Terrain = amazing burst.

And before you go Hurr Durr you waste all your CDs, that’s how most burst on most profs work… If you use RaO and QZ (or Sig of Wild) its even better.

I actually use it a lot whenever I PvP and feel like going BM. Nothing more hilarious then watching a stealth Jaguar burst down somebody as quick as a backstab thief. I’ve gotten so many rage messages, or “wtf” messages, from people that don’t understand what’kittenting them. That’s only hotjoins though. Generally, the tactic doesn’t work as well against experienced players in arenas in my experience.

I’m curious, as I’ve seen it mentioned a few times, but what is this so called Healing Spring nerf?

I mean, I’ve seen the same magical “leaked notes” that everybody else has, but I fail to see a nerf…

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

I don’t even want to get into that discussion lol. The only other place I even try to discuss things balance related anymore is on the guildwars2pvptv twitch chat.

I don’t blame you. Not much reason going on there right now. Just knee-jerk reactions. People unwilling to look at change and work around it. Unlike us rangers that do it time and time and time again.

And that’s why we’re awesome. ^.^

Very true lol. Right now, I’m contemplating dropping another 800 gems and making myself an engi just cuz I want another class to theorycraft for and experience. Though I get the feeling I won’t like engi that much because of how full offense most of their builds tend to be, and I already have a necro that probably does just about the same thing, with a high survivability.

Point is, buildcrafting for ranger is and always has been an addiction to me. I spent the first 6 months on guru theorycrafting on there. And now, after all this time, I feel like rangers are next in line to get some love. I obviously can’t say it will be for sure the next patch, but rangers have been the most discussed and most altered class (in terms of viability of meta builds) for almost a year now, and we, along with eles, really feel like we’re next for some trait, weapon, and functionality love.

I’m hoping that feeling proves to be right.

I don’t even want to get into that discussion lol. The only other place I even try to discuss things balance related anymore is on the guildwars2pvptv twitch chat.

If the devs are still reading, it would be very nice to see a blog post similar to last years, where it took each class, discussed it’s current position in the game, how close you felt them to being in an okay spot (or the spot you want them in), and what spot the dev team is actually aiming for, with the functions the class should be performing well at, and how.

If you guys can take the time to do it that is, we know it’s a busy schedule.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

If you reveal me when I’m on my thief, I’m going to spam shortbow 3 and 5, and shadow step away, instead of stealthing away.

Cool.

Not sarcasm. I really mean it. Counter plays to counter plays. That’s what the game should be about. Not crying that stealth is no longer sacred and untouched.

I wish the game was more counterplay/hard counter centric. Maybe it’s me looking through rose tinted glasses every time I bring up guild wars 1, but specifically, in GvG, balanced builds. Every single class played a specific role that was meant to either soft or hard counter the other teams builds.

I just got finished watching Ostrich Eggs stream on twitch, and I have to say, even though there is lots of rage at times (not going to dispute whether or not it’s justified), he makes some good points about how certain aspects of the game aren’t fun because there isn’t any, or enough, counterplay options.

Vigor and protection, for instance, with the amount of uptime some classes get versus the lack of ways most classes have to deal with those boons. Another one, sorry to be negative, is to play against a shortbow ranger, because the way the weapon is designed, it’s just getting autoattacks fired at you over and over again, which isn’t fun to play against at all.

And honestly, not to go back into this, but I do love the conceptualization behind the change to Sic’ Em, and introducing more direct counters, I really do. I truly am sorry I can’t be more excited until I get more details. But the fact that ANet is willing to continue to introduce hard counters to things does give me hope that this game will one day get to a spot the I would feel is healthier for competition.

I just don’t think that the devs and the ranger playerbase really see the same thing though. I think that at this point, the best thing for the class would to get another dev blog about it. How progress is going towards where they want the final balance to be, what role rangers are intended to play, as far as being damage heavy or support heavy and how they accomplish these things, and what goal they have for the class and how the class functions.
That really is all. Something to give players a more distinct light at the end of the tunnel, and not just a glimmer of hope.

Personally, I’m extremely excited and satisfied with what J. Sharp has to say. But the timeline is going to be destructive towards any momentum/morale that gets built from the positive things they can say. They really do need to have a PR person from the company come out and do what I suggested, just maybe once a week until the patch, like “State of the Ranger,” “State of the Necromancer” etc etc etc.

If everything is a mystery, how are we even supposed to get any unity as a community when it’s left up to us to try to decipher where the class is going to be a month from now and what road it’s ultimately headed down? All it’s doing is creating needless arguments because we don’t have enough to go on to have long lasting, constructive conversations.

Sorry, /endrant I guess. More like /endtextwall lol.

If you reveal me when I’m on my thief, I’m going to spam shortbow 3 and 5, and shadow step away, instead of stealthing away.

Chopps.5047:

You are running beastmaster dire/apothecary, aren’t you jcbroe? 30 in WS? Hmm

Thats why you dont get bursted down and you sometimes lose to necro/engi. Try running something else. Suddenly theives becomes strong.

• this is wvw only, tpvp is very balanced in comparison imho

I wouldn’t run a build without 30 in WS for Empathic Bond. But for my own build I’ve been working on, which I have never gone into a full forum post about, is a combination of aspects between puandros build and a typical BM build, except… no BM points.

To elaborate:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8fjAV91BWKWo2Bi2jMZeMxPYIPjR5/LWqKJ-jEyAIuBRTLAJBwknAlHLiGbdrIasaZioa1NGA-w

Essentially, it’s just a weapon swap build to abuse fury and keep a constant output of bleeds. It does sacrifice some pet damage, but it makes up for it with beefier sustain/survival, and it has more constant pressure that relies more on the player than the pet. The pet choice is wolf for utility and jag for damage.

So it isn’t really a BM build.

Also, for my power setup:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNBjYDbEoqyOySwi1OQsesn93n2jMxJMxKYoLWqKJ-jkyAYMBZCCMZJQJPl1EogYRtIas6FMVJg6cR1ujioVDA-w

Longbow because why not. Sword/Warhorn for up close damage for when they get past the LB, and mobility on sword 2. I’d go more into skirmishing if there were better traits besides Quickdraw. Same pets.

So yeah. I haven’t had any trouble in WvW yet against anybody except the classes I mentioned previously though. Maybe all of my servers matchups lack good solo roaming thieves on the other side or something.

Really curious as to what exactly the intentions are for rangers. The ability to find and reveal stealthed targets, while useful, is also very situational, and doesn’t seem like it makes up for the lack of viable utilities, or at least, viable from a group support perspective.

While it is nice to receive some creative changes with enhanced functionality, is there any chance that there will be more “preview” posts to come that may express where the ranger is in the devs opinion, where they want the class to go, and how changes being made push the ranger in that direction? Along with any other details that are dropping that may improve build versatility and/or weapon/utility/trait usefulness?

Gotejjeken.1267:

jcbroe.4329:

Okay, so let’s discuss potential versus possible impact of Sic’ Em applying revealed.

First, we have to list potential functions:

1) The pet applies revealed for x duration to a single target
2) The pet applies revealed with each attack for the duration of Sic’ Em
3) Reveals enemies in an AoE around the ranger player (it is a shout)
4) Reveals enemies in an AoE around the ranger pet

Uses:

PvE: ….. I don’t have any. If somebody does, go ahead, I’m at a loss.

PvP: Could be useful in a fight against a thief/mesmer, though generally in PvP, the meta builds right now indicate that stealth is used more offensively than defensively (or for mesmer, as stun break). It doesn’t seem to be overly handy, other than to keep either class from resetting the fight for a period of time, and also potentially lowering DPS.

Dungeons: …. don’t see any here either. Again, if somebody has a use, please discuss.

WvW: Probably the most useful battlefield. Can be used to keep thieves/mesmers from escaping, or by simply disabling offensive/defensive options for a period of time. If AoE, can be used by coordinated groups to remove veil/mass invisibility, but would require coordination with ones own group to successfully take advantage of this.

Highest impact is probably in organized group versus group settings, in which veil/mass invisibility are common tools. Next highest impact is probably fighting a thief, but only if the reveal debuff is significant, and the ranger player is built to be able to capitalize on debuffing the thief.

Gameplay impact: Minimal. There are some new curve balls that can be thrown at old situations that may or may not change the outcome, but ultimately does not help the ranger versus the games inherent content. Thieves may prove to be less taxing opponents for rangers, which is a WvW exclusive problem because they lose the matchup against rangers in the current meta anyhow.

First of all, how do you know new PvE content is not coming that would make use of the reveal ability?

Second of all, exactly how much WvW do you run? From your posts, you seem mostly like a sPvP guy. If you run WvW you would know that thieves are more than just a ‘little problem’, especially when roaming. The stealth mechanic makes even terribad thieves extremely safe to use. If they do not outright kill you, they can flee in seconds…there is no downside to it.

So a reveal mechanic—if executed properly—would make it pretty even for ranger vs. thief, and not a ‘run if you see a thief or you are going to die 80% of the time’ situation.

Didn’t I leave PvE category open for that very reason though?

And no, I don’t know. But I can evaluate the information given to us at this time, can’t I? It’s like we’re arguing about unicorns or something, and I said that unicorns don’t exist, only to get the response: “they could exist in the future.”

I’ve also never been killed by a solo thief on my ranger. I could care less if they can run away, because I can run away, just minus the stealth. Still, I have never lost to thief on my ranger in WvW. They don’t have the sustain damage to deal with my roaming BM build, and I can outheal them while putting them down low enough to where they have to either run or they’ll die.

Not sure where this 80% loss rate comes from against thieves. If anything, the only things that stand a chance against me are Necros and Engineers, because Empathic Bond kills my pet and they have enough cleansing to deal with my damage, and then of course guardians, who I just stalemate against because we can’t do damage to each other.

The only class I turn tail and run from is a Mace/Shield Warrior. There are not enough stun breaks in the world that can deal with that build, and a warrior that knows what they’re doing can absolutely destroy right now.

@Chopps; thank you, I needed to some uses for Reveal in PvE/Dungeons.

Chopps.5047:

Around around we go, when we stop nobody knows lol

Great discussion fellas, thanks for keeping it clean so far

Hey, the forums have been dead up until we get some new news, aside from the constant drawl of…. well, you know where that’s going.

So at least it’s something to talk about lol. I wish I could find out if any of the bows are getting reworks, and if any of the traits are getting changed. I’d love to be reinvigorated to go back to my old, theorycrafting for hours ways.

Okay, so let’s discuss potential versus possible impact of Sic’ Em applying revealed.

First, we have to list potential functions:

1) The pet applies revealed for x duration to a single target
2) The pet applies revealed with each attack for the duration of Sic’ Em
3) Reveals enemies in an AoE around the ranger player (it is a shout)
4) Reveals enemies in an AoE around the ranger pet

Uses:

PvE: ….. I don’t have any. If somebody does, go ahead, I’m at a loss.

PvP: Could be useful in a fight against a thief/mesmer, though generally in PvP, the meta builds right now indicate that stealth is used more offensively than defensively (or for mesmer, as stun break). It doesn’t seem to be overly handy, other than to keep either class from resetting the fight for a period of time, and also potentially lowering DPS.

Dungeons: …. don’t see any here either. Again, if somebody has a use, please discuss.

WvW: Probably the most useful battlefield. Can be used to keep thieves/mesmers from escaping, or by simply disabling offensive/defensive options for a period of time. If AoE, can be used by coordinated groups to remove veil/mass invisibility, but would require coordination with ones own group to successfully take advantage of this.

Highest impact is probably in organized group versus group settings, in which veil/mass invisibility are common tools. Next highest impact is probably fighting a thief, but only if the reveal debuff is significant, and the ranger player is built to be able to capitalize on debuffing the thief.

Gameplay impact: Minimal. There are some new curve balls that can be thrown at old situations that may or may not change the outcome, but ultimately does not help the ranger versus the games inherent content. Thieves may prove to be less taxing opponents for rangers, which is a WvW exclusive problem because they lose the matchup against rangers in the current meta anyhow.

Sorry that I know how to take the rose tinted glasses off, and that it makes me a naysayer.

I look at every patch realistically. Realistically speaking, stealth debuffing is not a game changing improvement, and other details that were hinted at have nowhere near enough backing to be determined whether or not they are actually positive overall.

Right now, with a lack of details, this patch looks to be another aquaman patch all over again.

So, more details are needed.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

I’m just frustrated that that was the highlight, because for me it’s more depressing than positive.

I think you’re forgetting that there was another change equally highlighted. One for our pets to give better party support, specifically calling out bear, moa, and fern hound, but probably including other pets as well. Better party support will only help all game modes and is a great highlight.

Those mean little to me if they don’t get the F2 working on demand. I need the bear to remove those conditions when I press the button, etc etc, not 10 seconds later. So I can’t like that change until I know it will work the way it needs to in order to be useful.

If it does work like that, then that’s great, and I will definitely like the patch. Hopefully they get a few more details out there before the 15th to let us know for certain that pets got fixed.

But until then I’m just going to be hoping for, besides what I just mentioned, improvements to weapons. Increased damage? Yes please. Increased usability? I’ll take some of that.

One of these days, ANet is going to put out a patch that makes rangers the priority target in team fights. That’s the patch I’m waiting for, the one where teams go “we gotta get that ranger down now or we’ll lose this fight.”

I welcome any positive changes. And in PvP, if a perma-stealth thief, and not a sword/dagger evade thief, is attacking a point, then every time they stealth, they are no longer contesting it. Typically, they also build glass and don’t have the sustain to kill a bunker by themselves. So they can’t really do anything to a ranger other than trick them off a point by stealthing and making the ranger think they disappeared. Really at that point though, all you need is some communication. “Did the thief go back to mid/home?” So, it’s an added feature, but I don’t think it will see more use for that feature alone since perma-stealth isn’t the most popular build in PvP right now.

People were using Sic’ Em on BM builds already as a variant before the pets got nerfed, so really, they would benefit. But mostly, as you said, this is going to be an improvement for WvW roaming.

It’s nice, I just wish it wasn’t the highlight. On a much more personal preference, I would have preferred to see any of the weapon changes that were getting talked about with no specifics. Weapon skills are the main portion of interactive gameplay, and probably the skills used the most. Anything that gets changed directly changes how things get used, which seems much more important than highlighting a single utility that doesn’t address any concern for large portions of the playerbase.

I’m just frustrated that that was the highlight, because for me it’s more depressing than positive.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

Actually, I can assume whatever I want, because those details aren’t set in stone anywhere, therefore being left up to assumption.

And, again, woohoo, counterplaying stealth. Now, I can get into dungeon groups. Now, I can be productive in world boss/raid style fights because I can destealth the big boss that doesn’t move an inch during the fight or even stealth. Now, I can send my pet into large balls of death in WvW and it will destealth something maybe before dying.

Yay, we’re so viable now! /sarcasm

Great, it’s a new mechanics. Great, it may be an exclusive mechanic. But in the grand scheme of things, it isn’t that amazing of a feature, and if that serves as the highlight of the upcoming patch, then it is doubtful that rangers will be seeing much more utility improvement beyond that.

I could be wrong, I would love to be wrong. But right now all I can discuss is the highlight, and it’s really just a terrible excuse for a much more necessary QoL and support/utility improvement.

Not all changes need to apply to you, you know. No, that will not really affect us much/at all in PvE. But for WvW and PvP players, that is a good thing. Just as we shouldn’t get ignored in PvE in favour of balancing around PvP, WvWers shouldn’t get nothing just because we want all the attention.

And we’re getting plenty more. Unlisted weapon skill changes. Pet (and most likely spirit) health buffs in WvW and PvE.

It’s useful for roaming in WvW, yes. But PvP? What? How? If a player is playing perma-stealth in PvP, they aren’t contesting the point, and rangers have enough survival to be able to counter and outplay perma stealth thieves on homepoint 1v1 anyhow.

So when is this useful in PvP?

And pets are still going to die in WvW. How useful is destealthing 1-5 people, really? It will take an extremely coordinated group for it to be effective in, but it’s a waste for most people because they won’t be able to take advantage of the destealthing mechanic.

Yes, there are extremely specific situations in which it may be a tad bit useful, and maybe if BM builds ever return to a spot on the pvp meta, it would be slotted, and mostly because there’s really nothing else to use besides a trap or another stun breaker.

But honestly, it’s a much too limited improvement to be viable across the vast array of content that is in the game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

I’m not normally the one to be super negative about a patch, but if that is the highlight from the upcoming patch, then just wow. Those number changes better be good, because I apparently still won’t be changing my utilities around.

It’s a highlight as it’s the first, and so far only, counterplay to stealth discussed by devs. That makes it a large highlight.

Also remember that no other details about the skill have been announced, so you shouldn’t assume that the known bugs will all be ignored.

Actually, I can assume whatever I want, because those details aren’t set in stone anywhere, therefore being left up to assumption.

And, again, woohoo, counterplaying stealth. Now, I can get into dungeon groups. Now, I can be productive in world boss/raid style fights because I can destealth the big boss that doesn’t move an inch during the fight or even stealth. Now, I can send my pet into large balls of death in WvW and it will destealth something maybe before dying.

Yay, we’re so viable now! /sarcasm

Great, it’s a new mechanics. Great, it may be an exclusive mechanic. But in the grand scheme of things, it isn’t that amazing of a feature, and if that serves as the highlight of the upcoming patch, then it is doubtful that rangers will be seeing much more utility improvement beyond that.

I could be wrong, I would love to be wrong. But right now all I can discuss is the highlight, and it’s really just a terrible excuse for a much more necessary QoL and support/utility improvement.

I honestly couldn’t care less about Sic’ Em revealing stealth. I mean, yay for functionality, but it is seems like such a specific function for such a specific situation that it will barely make the skill used more.

And, if the pet has to hit the target, let’s not forget how quickly people will rage on this skill when they watch their pet run around in circles, wasting the duration of Sic’ Em, and not hitting a thing (it’s bound to happen unless the pets receive an AI QoL improvement at the same time).

I’m not normally the one to be super negative about a patch, but if that is the highlight from the upcoming patch, then just wow. Those number changes better be good, because I apparently still won’t be changing my utilities around.

Now, if the skill functions differently, and let’s say, applies AoE stealth debuff on activation using the pet as a radius, it might actually be more useful than I’m imagining. But even then, it isn’t like it gives the ranger better group support in large scale battles. Most, if not all PvE content is going to be indifferent to a destealthing mechanic as well.

So…. again, those number changes better be good.

Not to be weird, but:

Gotta love durz haha <3