Guild Wars 2

@Sharp;

The community has been pretty negative lately with the lack of balance changed in order to preserve the meta going into pax. It hasn’t exactly been “the most fun” community to be a part of lately.

However, just reading through your posts that you took the time to make, after being put off by the negativity of the community and letting it dissuade my optimism for the potential of the game, I really am feeling much better about where the game is headed. Particularly, because I’ve mained ranger since day 1 of guild wars 1, I followed suit and picked up a ranger in this game and try to be an active part of that community. But really, that profession forum can be quite toxic, and the community of regular posters in that subforum are just overflowing with negativity and spite, to the point where, with the lack of dev communication, it was affecting my enjoyment of the game to be constantly reminded by a small group of people about all the things wrong with the game.

So, that being said, thank you for taking the time to post on the forums, and be so positive. Whenever you explain philosophies on the game and where you want the game to head, or discuss ideas you have to make the game better, they really do make me excited for the future of the game. Personally, I know that these changes aren’t going to happen instantly, but with a dev like you on board, I really am more satisfied overall with the game.

So I personally appreciate the time you take to post of the forums, and I have to say that as far as balance goes, if you are able to balance the way you suggest you want to in your philosophy, then I can only see a positive outcome. You did a great job with PAX, especially at commentating, and thanks again for the forum activity any everything you do for the game.

Well I just read somewhere that a goal is trying to slow down the game in general, to make it a bit less spam based. So I’m assuming everything that gets changed will be in line with that goal.

I really am tired of hearing stuff like this though “nerfing the weakest profession in the game.” If it was the weakest in the game, why would it be getting nerfed? If people aren’t able to understand the balance changes that are being made, that’s fine, but don’t blame your lack of understanding of why the balance was needed on ANet. It’s a “bad for the player, good for the game” situation.

Do people really WANT spirits to be their viable build anyhow? I mean, we were laughing at them as a community back in April, with a few outliers trying to convince us all they were strong. BUT, the moment a top tier team starts playing them and word gets round, all of a sudden, it’s “OMG, Spirits are so good, this build is awesome! I love my build, don’t nerf my build, I hate you for nerfing my build.” The spirit build was a joke to a lot of people before it was made popular on a wider-spread basis by being a commonly played build by a group of probably only about 20 “top tier” players.

Let’s take an example of an ideal balance scenario from a different game. Call of Duty: Black Ops 2. The MSMC and PDW are the 2 most overused weapons in the game, particularly so by the top teams in high level competition. So, the developers can see that the weapons are running the game, and they nerf them to make them worse, and the community loses its kitten. They start throwing death threats at the devs and wishing every negative thing under the sun to happen to them. BUT, those weapons that are nerfed are still the two most used weapons in the game, and the competitive side of the community still regards the MSMC as the best SMG and one of the best weapons in the game, also still being the most used weapon in competitive play.

So, by using that standard as an anecdotal reference on how balance should go, if the class receives a nerf but is still viable, the nerf wasn’t to make the class worse, but alter how the metagame is played in order to allow a better balance to take precedence over the metagame. The build itself can still be completely viable, I saw that happen to my guild wars 1 ranger builds all the time, because rangers were pretty top tier in guild wars 1 pvp too.

But no, the patch hasn’t gone live yet and there’s no exact details released, and the community is ALREADY bashing the devs and complaining. And then you wonder why the devs don’t post in the ranger forums…

Well with my current two builds, I’d be looking at damage dealing options. I run a knights/zerker mix and I run an Apoth/Settlers mix for solo roaming. So I would have to say, based on this information: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rarity#Quality

I probably won’t even stress trying to get ascended stats for my apoth build. I use my knights/zerker in more content, and find it more flexible to the amount of situations it performs in, so I would be shooting for a knights longbow.

Really, this is one of those times where I think that classes need to be balanced FOR PvP, and not FROM PvP. (As in, changes should be PvP only, instead of balance trickling down from how a spec performs in PvP and getting nerfed throughout the rest of the game.)

Am I the only one who’s happy they are stepping away from RNG procs? I mean, let’s assume for all purposes that if Sun Spirit gets an increased ICD, that things its effect mimic cross profession (Incendiary Powder, Dhuumfire) get an ICD nerf too, especially since that would make sense that they are trying to “slow” down the condi meta, which is where its at essentially because you can burst conditions on to a target, doing extremely high levels of armor ignoring damage that can be kept up constantly that cleansing can’t keep up with.

So, if increasing it to a 100% proc, AND the fact that spirits are just straight up procs (no precision needed, etc), a coordinated group will be able to take full advantage of it by paying attention to when the spirit effect goes on cooldown, then timing their next attack. Now, for instance, your thief teammate can time their next backstab with your frost spirit, then pop their own “next attack does 15% more damage” signet, and potentially hit a 25% stronger backstab.

It’s just a wait and see. Nerfs are never fun, but there isn’t a huge portion of the community that plays spirits I don’t think, so if it doesn’t directly affect that many peoples gameplay, then they just won’t care.

I’m just hoping I get some new toys to play around with when the update drops. I’m not sure if this is going to be this months balance update or not, considering the SoTG is this weekend. The last SoTG was after the balance update too, so I’m not certain if this one is following suit or if the big one won’t come until the 17th.

No.

(I realize no QQ, but this is for any devs passing by to offer up some reasoning)

PvP offers no crossover content whatsoever. Everything you accomplish in PvP remains in PvP except being able to /rank, which creates the feeling of actions in PvP having a lack of consequence, and rank progress is horridly slow and unrewarding, to the point where it’s just a number to show to represent to yourself how much time you’ve spent in PvP, and that PvP at it’s most rewarding amounts to lol leaderboards.

In essence, PvP doesn’t feel like it matters, and definitely doesn’t feel like it’s worth investing time into it. It may as well be an entirely separate game. Then at that point, the state of balance is so discouraging that even if it were a mode to “go compete, do something different, and have fun,” the balance suggests that it is a place where your largest efforts on some classes will go completely unnoticed and be almost insignificant against other classes that take, if not less skill, the considerably less dexterity and actions per minute to be successful with. It forces players at times to completely switch classes in order to even stand a chance, which immediately ruins the fun for lots of people who feel a special connection with a certain class only to feel punished for using it because the balance isn’t in the best place.

Again, reasoning in case a dev is lurking, so that they don’t just see a bunch of yes/no/nes answers and have need a place to start figuring out why people aren’t happy.

I want to see something like Displacement from guild wars 1. “Pet guards the target area. For x seconds, pet absorbs x% of damage from all allies in range. Pet cannot attack while this skill is active.”

THAT’S team support right there. Then drop Zephyr’s Speed down to Master Level, and for a new Grandmaster trait: “Damage absorbed by your pet is reduced by x%.”

Options like that though may be a bit over the top for a game this game though, but they would definitely by viable for group support builds.

1% death penalty (or on death recharge reduction, whatever you want to call it) recharge per point of Beastmastery.

Beastmastery is already one of the worse mechanic boosting traits in the game (it needs an overhaul similar to what Sleight of Hand did for thief builds), so it may as well get some love that actually makes pets have better functionality (as opposed to just being a pet stat increase).

Fungalfoot.7213:

Oh yay, more dodging out of red circles. Love how varied the encounters are in this game.

NO… NO…. NO…. This ones different! It has a metric ton more hp and more varied types of red circles! And it will tell you that you suck if you can’t kill it in a given time frame, and reward you with another chance to snap your keyboard in half gambling with RNG rewards.

Oh wait…

Offering.1524:

I don’t think you quite understand the build, the healing power keeps a team on their feet for a extended duration. The root with the condition damage can stop a rushing zerg in its tracks, the cripple on the barrage does the same to slow the force so that my team can eat them. Raw dmg builds are fun, but not playing to benefit a large team of players.
So my thoughts are you build your class for solo pvp performance values in large scale team play.
Its your game you play it the way you want, but before you cut a build idea down look at the application, instead of just raw dps. Healing power with sprig is massive for healing a huge party, the cc’s to immobilize the other force so the raw dps can mow over them. The solo capabilities vs 2 thiefs in one section and they both run because they cannot down the build.

Theres plenty there you might have missed. Just sayin’

Uhhhh…. You’re wasting your condition damage. Like, entirely. That’s 700 some odd points that are being added towards a stat that you’re only using when you throw torch or use a skill that’s easily escape-able and dodge-able on a 150 (120 traited) second cooldown.

Even with wanting to play a support build, the stat allocation doesn’t support anything. It’s being wasted. That’s 700 more power or precision you could have to make barrage actually matter, and your attacks actually matter. AND you’d still be able to root and pressure with entangle; the difference would be that now, the people you are supporting won’t have to pick up your end of the damage.

I’m only trying to be helpful here, because while you had the best intentions, you aren’t going to convince anybody of anything, especially build viability, when you are trying to do it through showing off a build that has a fairly high investment in improving conditions and almost zero condition output.

Nobody here is telling you not to enjoy what you’re doing. They’re just telling you that you could be doing it better.

Wow, this thread got way out of hand.

So uh, back on topic, it depends what warrior variant we’re talking about here. I’d argue that the mace/shield greatsword combo is better in a straight up 1v1 against the ranger, especially since the spirit ranger build only typically has 1 stun breaker, where as the warrior has a 3 second stun every ~8 seconds, and multiple ways to be able to stay in and dish out damage to the spirit ranger.

I’d also argue that Longbow/hammer has good tools to go up against a ranger, but doesn’t have the damage output to be able to drop them as quickly as the other variant (it has more teamfight potential though).

So it depends really.

cont’d:

To get into some of the more detailed things, Skirmishing is an absolutely terrible trait. I couldn’t even figure out what to choose as the 3 traits in the build link I posted, besides Quickdraw, because nothing in that trait tree helps power builds at all, except the base bonuses for adding points to it. That is a HUGE opportunity cost, and I would honestly argue that it isn’t worth it, which is why I never run more than 20 in skirmishing (I would run 25, but I always have 30 in Wilderness for Condi Clears, and then 20 in Marks, so yeah). But even then, the only thing that increases damage is Sharpened Edges, which can be looked at as a 5-10% damage increase when it procs and the bleed tics. It’s also the best damage increasing option there is, so there’s also that.

The there is spirits. Their functions are honestly pretty great, but they are too easy to kill in large group, and not beneficial enough by themselves, which means generally, spirits are better for organized groups of people, and even then, the ranger can’t go mob surfing, and if a DPS guard/war (you know, the ones with spammable gap closers) looks at you, the spirits may as well just be on recharge if they are able to stick to you for 5 seconds. Utilities in general too though. The trait for Sharpening Stone is better than the utility slot, and the entire survival skillset is lacking in any sort of cohesion, or trait bolstered property, to make them worthwhile in a build dedicated to them. Shouts are the same way, and are pretty not good as far as what their effects are. Search and Rescue is a very slow rez, and other classes can have up a person, or even groups of people, in like 3 seconds. Just make Search and Rescue “sacrifice” the pet, and bring up the person with however much health the pet had. Sic’ Em would be fine in a PvP (vs PvE) environment of you had a little more control over what the pet did, and it had some smarter AI to track enemies better (I watch my pet and NPCs in particular run back and forth at each other like they’re trying to joust at times, its ridiculous). It’s just hard putting that much investment into something that isn’t being directly controlled by you. Guard does nothing useful except for a 30 Nature Magic build. Protect Me is the only worthwhile shout, and I honestly can say nothing bad about it.

Weapon skills. Particularly, the longbow and shortbow. They need to gain some sort of interesting feature or skill rotation, in order to make them less about rolling face on keyboard because only arrows are going to come out anyways, and more interesting, or interactive. Poison Volley (or whatever shortbow 2 is called) is the biggest thing on the shortbow that needs to change. Take rapid fire of the longbow, add poison to it with a 1s torment or a 2s bleed when flanking to it, and throw it on the shortbow. Leave 3 as it is. Make the duration for crippling shot double duration if its flanking. Boom, a more interesting weapon the capitalizes on its already unique dynamic. As for longbow, either reduce the range to 2 stages on the longbow, below 600 range and above 600 range, or scrap the auto attack function as it is now altogether, move the ranged based attack to the new number 2 slot, add damage, make it below and above 600 range, and have an added effected “if used in stealth, this attack immobilize for x seconds.” Boom, more interesting longbow with a unique mechanic that has better survival because it can play keep away better.

The Pet. There are already a million good suggestions on this forum, I’m not going to say mine because it will just start a chain idea of suggesting things, but plain and simple; it should be obvious that the pet needs reworking, because it doesn’t even work or it isn’t a fluid mechanic across all of the games content. Make the pet do something interesting, allow us to build different roles for it and have trait investment determine the amount of damage they do, do something other than letting them be a tacked on source of DPS that accounts for so much damage output which is lost due to environmental restrictions, or the scale of the battle, or because they can’t dodge and get 1 shotted by crazy 1 shot mechanics.

That’s everything I think.

Kasama.8941:

jcbroe.4329:

That may just be a bad example, because there are thieves out there (particularly jumper I think, maybe) who dedicate their entire build at times to solo contesting and holding far point all game (d/p s/d build), and are fairly good at forcing the teamfight off of mid and back to their home node in order to deal with the thief.

Durzlla.6295:

But my friend is a point holding thief and he’s very good at holding it….

I wish more people would have this kind of confidence in the Ranger..

I have an extreme amount of confidence in rangers. They just aren’t “there” yet. But as far as conditions go, rangers, when running some combination of axe/dagger sword/torch have the highest damage output per survivability in the game.

Single target damage wise, the longbow is probably one of, if not, the best 1200 range weapon in the game, at 1000+ range. Shortbow and sword as well, they both have some of the highest time to kill rates in the game.

Rangers now only have the 3rd highest regen per second in the game (I think warrior is probably number 1, and guard number 2), but the are right in between wars and guardians, having more evasiveness than a warrior or guardian, and more base hp than a guardian.

Rangers are great are picking off single targets from a distance. If you slot piercing arrows, they basically have to get out of your range, or else you can just keep poking at them and doing more than ignorable damage for most classes and people that aren’t in a super organized group. It also breathes potential for people to revive an old guild wars 1 idea, RSpike. 5 Full Berserker Rangers, 1 with spotter, the rest with piercing, all targeting the same target for a group spike/burst: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNBjYDxAx6xe2ffaFyE7hh4PjA-jUxAYLAyCQyrIasF1ioxqcJiqBA-w
Warhorn first, then everybody can just auto attack the same target, or, if people are getting too close, alternate rapid fires and/or barrages to scare them away. But imagine, all 5 rangers are going to have an 86% chance to hit a 3-4k damage autoattack AND proc sigil of fire. It would be insta-death if the group could could the coordination down.

Will all good things being said, I have come to find some of my own limitations with the class, which is the very reason why I post on the forums; in case they are just personal limitations that I can overcome, and not limitations that the class faces. Lack of reliable AoE for instance. Maybe the devs only wanted our AoE to be traps, I don’t know. But it is a huge factor on how effectively the class plays. Another factor is group support. Rangers don’t do much by way of providing boons or clearing conditions, which would indicate that rangers are meant to be more of a damage class, which would be fine, except that when you have all other things equal, you take the class with greater AoE potential, because AoE in this game has never been balanced against single target damage to make single target attacks stronger against a single target than AoE attacks, like the devs said they would back in December’s State of the Game.

Kasama.8941:

Chopps.5047:

Kasama.8941:

I don’t mean to be harsh, so sorry if I come off as that.

Lol I was being kind of sarcastic; ayden’s a big boy, I’m sure he can handle it. Those are things we can all learn from, really, Kasama. Thanks for all the wisdom. Honestly, if you filmed me, I’m sure I would make the same mistakes.

You’re not the first to think I’m harsh, when it comes to writing. So I wasn’t sure that you were being sarcastic =)

Well no one is perfect, I make mistakes when playing as well. But when you put up a video, and suggests someone to see it, you should be sure that what you show, is your best play possible.

But mostly, I just don’t understand why anyone would run into the middle of a zerg, as a Ranger. It seems like you have missed the point of the professions then. Kinda like taking a Thief, and using him as point defender in sPvP. It wouldn’t really work. You have to play to the professions strengths, or ells you’re going to have a tough time, and miss the advantage of the profession.

That may just be a bad example, because there are thieves out there (particularly jumper I think, maybe) who dedicate their entire build at times to solo contesting and holding far point all game (d/p s/d build), and are fairly good at forcing the teamfight off of mid and back to their home node in order to deal with the thief.

I love my ranger to death, but it has its limits. As a class with very limited direct utility support (extreme lack of boon sharing/stacking, or group wide healing/cleanses), rangers have always benefited most for building towards themselves, similar to how thieves operate.

In saying that, I do believe rangers are one of the strongest and most sustainable and escape capable classes in the game. But… that’s honestly where it ends. Maybe a niche role as a sniper class, like seeing a dedicated zerker group of rangers spike single targets (rspike 2.0), or something of that nature, but really, it is mostly because the skills we have access to are just boring, especially the ranged weapons. And then there’s always pets, that carry a chunk of the rangers damage output and aren’t really reliable in large group settings.

I mean, I love my ranger to death, but I finally got my necro fully geared out at 80 yesterday, and it’s a world of difference at the roles I feel I can compete in. The AoE output is just ridiculous in full rabid gear, and in small fights, I have 2.7k armor and 20k hp, plus deathshroud, plus a fear chain. So even though it isn’t a rangers healing and dodging, it’s more of a defense through offense type of situation. More importantly though, the nicest part about it is that I can pop plague, tag a zerg and get off a huge portion of pressure damage, then make it to the friendly zerg and actually have something I feel like I can contribute, which is something I don’t really feel on my ranger, because even if hitting people with 2k autoattacks is useful, its boring and it is only guaranteed to hit 1 person (the others are good luck and bad positioning on their part), and then no team support.

AND I just got my Guardian to 80. I’m only about halfway geared into, so no anecdotal example from that yet (I’ve played lots of guardian in s/tpvp though), but I’m sure that I’ll have a similar experience as a frontline supporter.

With all of that going on, I’m just not feeling the ranger class lately. Given that it holds ALL of my gameplay time up until now, except for the recent month or 2 where I’ve been into my necro and guard a bit more, but I just don’t feel like the class has enough depth to its design anymore. The weapons and utilities and traits are all in desperate need of updates, reworks, and polishes, and the longbow needs to be doing something other than “shoot arrow, shoot a bunch of arrows, shoot a stealth arrow, shoot a knockback arrow, shoot a bunch of weak arrows at a spot.” I mean, at least some more functionality in what the skills do (and that doesn’t just apply to the longbow). And the pet needs a serious rework, because, if anything, it should at least be a fluid and functional mechanic in all of the games content.

Oh, and @Dead Muppet; yes, necros have a best finish on staff 4, but it can’t be used on demand (aka it has to hit an enemy).

My longbow based power build is 30/10/30/0/0 with a knights/berserkers mix, and beryl jewels.

My shortbow power build is the same armor and trinkets, with 20/20/30/0/0.

The third build I run is the BM healing/roaming variant for WvW, with 0/0/30/10/30, apothecary armor, and settlers trinkets. The traits can easily be switched around to 10/0/30/10/20 or 0/10/30/10/20, or something else to suit your needs (my personal variant is 0/15/30/10/15 with full ascended apothecary+rabid mix trinkets).

Lastly, the PvP exclusive, spirits, 10/0/30/30/0.

Find any of those interesting? I’d be happy to go into more detail, I just wasn’t going to detail out all of them if there is something particular that seemed interesting.

Something definitely needs to be done. Good points have been made all around, especially how traits dictate the game. It would be one thing if every trait in every slot was a competitive option is some aspect, especially grandmaster traits. But, because there aren’t, it automatically drives builds into “obvious” options.

The same goes for the tradeoff discussion, there is a huge issue with investments and tradeoffs. A huge example I can give is something like, look at how little trait investment it takes for condition builds and weapons to work for rangers, versus look at how 30 marksmanship is mandatory to make a longbow/power build as optimal as it can be, and then even then, it doesn’t really necessarily compete with the output of the condition build.

If more investment is required, it should be able to do more or do better, because you’re trading off something else you could be invested in and limiting your options in that way.

So yes, good discussion so far.

Furajir.3815:

Axe/Dagger and Sword/Torch is extremely fluid and fun to play, with tons of synergy.

It is very fun and fluid, but I’d also say its extremely easy. The conditions in which it applies conditions are very lenient, and/or easy to accomplish, and are also on fairly short cooldowns. The evades are also on short cooldown, while providing good utility through long lasting poisons.

Luckily, the auto attacks (especially without power investment) aren’t very powerful, so that does kind of offset the strengths of the cooldown skills. But making Splitblades and Throw Torch, for instance, more punishing on whiff might be better to try to edge away from the spam meta, and make timing them that much more crucial, given how strong they are. Just as an example.

dragons > shinies > PVE > dungeons > esports > gem shop > jump puzzles > WvW > cow finishers > balance

By now, we’re all aware of where the current ranger Spirit build stands in the meta. However, this discussion is meant to be more comprehensive than that. Through the games life cycle up until this point, rangers have been consistently rated at the top of the list, approaching or fitting into an OP status.

So, the question that needs to be asked ranges past current meta builds, and this question is: what are problems that the class faces that make it so not likable or not favorable for PvP?

My own thoughts:

-A huge part of the problem has always come from the function of the weapon skills. Most of the weapon skills have extremely basic and easy to use functions, that are strong on top of their ease of use, and have short cooldowns that aren’t punishing enough for whiffing attacks. Most weapon skills don’t need any rotations to be made effective; rotations being a necessary mechanic in order to increase the skill ceiling of gameplay.

-Building off of the last point, utilities and traits are the next issue that needs to be addressed. Rangers don’t really have many utilities or traits that bolster weapon skills, meaning that they have their own unique functions that aren’t dependent on weapon skills, and weapons themselves aren’t really dependent on any trait investment to be useful (the best one rangers have in current builds is Offhand Training). That means that ranger traits can be used entirely to buff either utilities or the pet (30 points has always been necessary in Wilderness Survival for condi removal, but consequently, that only helps builds by adding toughness and condi damage), and because of that utilities can be made extremely strong with no cost to the damage output of the weapons, which is where we get imbalanced builds like the Spirit build, which allows rangers to maintain full damage output on their weapon skills, while building entirely for team support, and the team support utilities can also output a large amount of damage with active effects.

-That leads into the next issue; the pet mechanic. The pet mechanic was designed to be an “always on” source of damage that is AI controlled. That is a problem, because players that go into a PvP mode are extremely turned off by going up against any sort of Player vs AI element, since that essentially takes player skill out of part of the equation. Then, there is also a ranger player, who can also be attacking you while the AI is attacking you, which, regardless of effectiveness, has a frustrating “feel,” due to the ranger class feeling like it has an AI handicap helping them, that is hard to counterplay due to the pet swap mechanic.

Suggestions for improvement:

-Add more necessary rotations for skills on weaponsets. Overall, the class needs to be harder to play.
-If passive elements aren’t removed, make them harder to use. Rangers spirits in particular should have a shorter lifespan than the cooldown, in order to encourage more mindful tactics that punish players that decide to just spam spirits. Also, the elite spirit probably has too many rez chances, and the storm spirit active probably does too much damage.
-Change the pet mechanic. Allow the “always out” idealism to be retained, but make the pet have to be “summoned” (look at the way spirits work currently). F1 summons them to attack a target, then toggles to a “sic” option to change targets. F2 is a unique attack. F3 is in invulnerability that also makes the pet stop attacking for its duration. F4 “returns” the pet, un-summoning them and putting them on cooldown. If the pet dies, it goes on full cooldown, while F4 keeps the remaining cooldown. Balance for damage options and utility options accordingly.

Granted I’m just one person, and my opinions don’t always represent everybody elses. But it seems like the community would be in full agreement that the ranger class definitely needs to be changed to require a higher skill investment in order to be successful.

Discuss? Opinions, suggestions, etc. A comprehensive discussion/suggestion thread is definitely needed, since just saying something is OP doesn’t really help the devs make any changes.

Honestly I can’t stand any other race than humans in this game (call it a Guild Wars 1 bias). Asura are small and arrogant, Norn lack intellectual depth, Charr are warmongers, and Sylvari and naive moving plants that belong in salads.

Humans are fairly versatile. They can fill numerous roles, and have a nice deep lore than is not only told by the story (from guild wars 1 til now), but can be seen on particular landscapes.

Given this is all personal opinion, but the only other interesting race that has ever had a protagonist role in guild wars 2 is dwarves, and unfortunately, lore makes them unplayable in guild wars 2.

If you’re dead set on making a different race though, everything > sylvari. I’d make a skritt or a quaggan before I make a sylvari.

I never really cared for his input anyhow. He seemed overly optimistic and also seemed to lack knowledge of the depths of the capabilities of the class.

He was a great guy though, and speaking rl for a moment, hopefully the transition ends up being a positive one.

Derps.7421:

jcbroe.4329:

google.3709:

its not as simple as countering them.. the problem is way bigger

spirit rangers and necros are pushing condi meta over the top…

• people hate condi meta
• people hate fighting pets.. its not enjoyable to play against/watch

the meta is sooo terrible ever since these classes became fotm. most teams started “taking a break”, the PvP community has greatly died out and like myself i thought that this would change with the next big patch and that just had to endure the struggle until PAX was over…

But if they are really not gonna fix it… i doubt most people/teams would wanna come back and with school/college starting soon, gw2 pvp might just die out for a couple of months… until Anet starts making rational decisions

I’m not disagreeing at all.

When I made my “counter” post, I just meant that in a meta where Rangers and Necros are running rampant, the least teams can do is take something to counter it, which warriors seem to do pretty darn well, albeit, not necessarily in a teamfight setting.

I’m not going to say I have a multitude of experience here, but from observations alone, it looks like classes that take the responsibility of maintaining home point lack stability, and are overall fighting an uphill battle against a mace/shield greatsword warrior (or similar stun variants). So in the current meta, it seems like sending a warrior far point could be extremely advantageous, given that they should be able to 1v1 the “meta” defender builds and win most of the time, especially with cooldowns.

I mean, it sure beats ragequitting the game, but I guess not everybody shares that optimism, which I can totally sympathize with.

But teams won’t send a warrior home point because their are better options. This apparently “God Mode” insane op wqrrqir build can be easily stopped.
1. Dodge.
2. Predict for christs sake you know what he is going to try to do it is your own kitten fault if you get caught with the stun.

Although i will say that healing signet combined with cleansing ire is pretty ridiculous. Use poison to counter the sig but it will just get cleansed right off.

I don’t think I said anything about a god mode build, or anything all the super powerful. I was just making mention of the fact that at least there exists a counter to the meta.

No, Spirit builds aren’t any fun to play against, and speaking mainly from a ranger perspective, they really aren’t that engaging (the class itself really just lacks skills that offer complex functions or do interesting things).

But I’m saying that AT LEAST you can counter comp. Within the lifespan of this game, I’m sure we’ll eventually see a build that can’t even be counter comp’d, given how fantastic the progress of the balance updates has gone in the last year.

@Everybody; isn’t it time the ranger class was discussed in general? Over the past year, basically every spec the ranger had has had the reoccurring response of it being too strong, or too easy. Some builds have been addressed, some have just fallen out of the meta, but either way…

Isn’t it about time a conversation was had about why exactly the skill ceiling for the ranger class remains low, so low that when strong enough tools are given to the class, the class immediately jumps to being over the top?

It seems to me to be a combination of passive mechanics, basic but effective weaponsets that don’t offer a large enough challenge to be efficient (no real rotations necessary, strong effects with simple effectiveness requirements on low cooldowns, etc), a lack of interactive utilities, and the ones that are the most interactive (Traps, Survival) are either weak, or just weak for the current meta.

Oh, and a pet mechanic that by design doesn’t offer much counterplay to opponents, or interactive play to the ranger. It’s kind of just tacked on damage that is mostly out of the players control, and runs around with minimal management needed to be effective, and offers players no other way to use pets, other than for passive damage (granted a few have useful active skills, or RNG useful skill rotations, but it’s a small percentage of the overall population, and RNG AI skills being useful is just bad for competition all around).

I’m not sure if seeing this would help you make your build, but this is my Non-BM focused Apoth variant: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8PGIaPyk5xE/gh8MGl/B-jUxAIuBRnHLiGbdrIasaZioa1NGA-w

It’s a very similar trait setup, with our builds taking different focuses. But with some rune swaps, and gear preference swaps, I’m sure it can be made into a protection build. For instance, what I have posted has 25% boon duration from nature magic. Then take 2x Earth for another 20% on protection. Then you may as well start stacking boon duration, unless that 25% to get 4s of protection is that important to you.

Otherwise, the build is focused entirely on making protection from dodge rolls and Nature’s Protection as long as possible. But with 2x Monk Runes and 2x Water runes, you’d now end up with a grand total of 88% regen duration and 75% protection duration, with 55% of that being just base +boon duration, which in the particular build I posted up, makes the fury on weapon swap that is so useful to that build last almost 8s. Meaning basically perma-fury too, as long as continuous weapon swaps are being made.

I hope any of that information can be helpful.

google.3709:

its not as simple as countering them.. the problem is way bigger

spirit rangers and necros are pushing condi meta over the top…

• people hate condi meta
• people hate fighting pets.. its not enjoyable to play against/watch

the meta is sooo terrible ever since these classes became fotm. most teams started “taking a break”, the PvP community has greatly died out and like myself i thought that this would change with the next big patch and that just had to endure the struggle until PAX was over…

But if they are really not gonna fix it… i doubt most people/teams would wanna come back and with school/college starting soon, gw2 pvp might just die out for a couple of months… until Anet starts making rational decisions

I’m not disagreeing at all.

When I made my “counter” post, I just meant that in a meta where Rangers and Necros are running rampant, the least teams can do is take something to counter it, which warriors seem to do pretty darn well, albeit, not necessarily in a teamfight setting.

I’m not going to say I have a multitude of experience here, but from observations alone, it looks like classes that take the responsibility of maintaining home point lack stability, and are overall fighting an uphill battle against a mace/shield greatsword warrior (or similar stun variants). So in the current meta, it seems like sending a warrior far point could be extremely advantageous, given that they should be able to 1v1 the “meta” defender builds and win most of the time, especially with cooldowns.

I mean, it sure beats ragequitting the game, but I guess not everybody shares that optimism, which I can totally sympathize with.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

jcbroe.4329:

Am I the only one that remembers Ranger/Ritualist (R/Rt) Underworld Farming with SoS?

Yes.

I never tried it, and this is the first I remember hearing of it. Everyone I talked to wanted to insist Perma-SF was the only way to do it. ONLY.

After the update that made spirits basically insta-cast in PvE, it was just a manner of summoning all your spirits, then pulling an enemy and hitting them with Painful Bond and watching your spirits nuke them. It wasn’t the worlds fastest build, but it was near impossible to screw up.

I’m not arguing for the build here…

But I am curious if people really know how hard warriors actually counter spirit rangers. Specifically, the mace/shield and greatsword variant absolutely wrecks spirit rangers that get caught by Skull Crack, even more so if the warrior has zerker stance. Oh, and you can use shield 4 to eat up the rangers stun absorb trait, meaning that for the next 90 seconds, they have no way to deal with stuns.

I mean, for the lols, couple Warrior with Signet of Stamina AND Lyssa Runes with Signet of Rage, and there is no way the ranger should be the one that comes out of that fight.

Just saying. It doesn’t hurt to counter comp a little.

Am I the only one that remembers Ranger/Ritualist (R/Rt) Underworld Farming with SoS?

infantrydiv.1620:

jcbroe.4329:

Oh, it’s another one of these threads. Somebody run to the store and get a supply of tissues, because there is about to be some serious crying happening.

Let’s review the last year of the game for rangers. Traps OP. BM OP. Spirits OP. Hmmm. Oh, and as Eurantien said, he’s played lots of Berserker ranger is is pretty top tier, so it’s either Berserker ranger OP or Eurantien OP.

Before each of the metas that those builds were strong in, people laughed at trap rangers, people laughed at pet rangers, and people laughed at spirit rangers. People are also still laughing at the idea of berserker rangers.

FotM builds are supposed to be easy, or at least that’s what I thought. We have Skull Crack Warriors and Spam to win necros, but rangers are the only overpowered class in the game it seems, because people have just never liked being beat by rangers.

Yes, the idea of skill cap of current “meta” or FotM builds for the ranger is low. But don’t forget that there’s 7 other classes in the game, and particularly, Rangers, Thieves, Warriors, and Necros are very invested into their cheese builds right now.

But just, for a moment, take a look at the ranger class as a whole. Look over the weapon skills and traits and functions. If you don’t immediately see the lack of complexity of design, you will by playing it. Rotations are next to nonexistent, skills and utilities are extremely basic, and the pet mechanic is especially simple by design.

Sure, a build might be OP. But it doesn’t help the devs at all by saying its OP. People have been saying ranger is OP forever now, so it’s probably time to have a discussion about what people think is bad, or not competitive, about the class. I gave my input.

What’s your point? I’ve played necromancer and thief quit a bit in tpvp. Nothing and I mean nothing compares to just how easy it is to do well on a spirit ranger. Is necro condi spam and S/D thief evades annoying? Yes. But neither of those classes bring amazing team support as well. And neither of them can be resurrected by its AI 2 times in a row. Spirit Ranger is totally over the top. If Eurantien got to the top 100 with a Berserker Ranger… good for him, I guarantee it requires 10x the skill a spirit ranger does.

Maybe you haven’t noticed…the top NA team SYNC going to PAX is running two spirit rangers. I’m sure they are great players…but that should just speak for itself how OP they are in multiple situations.

I don’t see any real input other than complaining that people don’t like being killed by srangers. Not that there is any validity to that claim.

My point is that you just said its OP again. I never disagreed with you either. What I said is that if it is OP, explain why it is OP. And don’t say “because it doesn’t take me any skill to play it” because skill level is subjective.

What is OP about it? Is it perhaps that amount of damage Storm Spirit does? Is it that Spirits are able to last their entire recharge duration making them lack entirely in needing skill to use them? Is it the amount of rezzes the Elite is capable of?

Or does it go beyond the spirit mechanic? Are rangers weapon skills too simplistic? Are they too spam forgiving and lacking in rotations to make for skilled gameplay? Is the pet a poor mechanic, and if so, how can it be changed to make it better?

Note that I asked numerous leading questions in order to highlight some of my personal thoughts about the build. But just saying its OP doesn’t get the conversation anywhere, it isn’t even a conversation, it’s a statement, and it surely isn’t going to help the dev team when it comes to balancing if they don’t know what aspects are problematic.

GvG, the capture mode in HA, and FA. Particularly, with no dedicated healer in guild wars 2, FA would be even more fun than it was in guild wars 1.

Oh, it’s another one of these threads. Somebody run to the store and get a supply of tissues, because there is about to be some serious crying happening.

Let’s review the last year of the game for rangers. Traps OP. BM OP. Spirits OP. Hmmm. Oh, and as Eurantien said, he’s played lots of Berserker ranger is is pretty top tier, so it’s either Berserker ranger OP or Eurantien OP.

Before each of the metas that those builds were strong in, people laughed at trap rangers, people laughed at pet rangers, and people laughed at spirit rangers. People are also still laughing at the idea of berserker rangers.

FotM builds are supposed to be easy, or at least that’s what I thought. We have Skull Crack Warriors and Spam to win necros, but rangers are the only overpowered class in the game it seems, because people have just never liked being beat by rangers.

Yes, the idea of skill cap of current “meta” or FotM builds for the ranger is low. But don’t forget that there’s 7 other classes in the game, and particularly, Rangers, Thieves, Warriors, and Necros are very invested into their cheese builds right now.

But just, for a moment, take a look at the ranger class as a whole. Look over the weapon skills and traits and functions. If you don’t immediately see the lack of complexity of design, you will by playing it. Rotations are next to nonexistent, skills and utilities are extremely basic, and the pet mechanic is especially simple by design.

Sure, a build might be OP. But it doesn’t help the devs at all by saying its OP. People have been saying ranger is OP forever now, so it’s probably time to have a discussion about what people think is bad, or not competitive, about the class. I gave my input.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Eurantien.4632:

The skills of interest:
Fire Bomb vs. Flame Trap

Fire Bomb:
Pros:
- 2s burn that pulses 3 times on a 10s CD.
- Bring the added utilities of immobilize, confusion, blind, and cripple.

Cons:
- Cannot be preset.
- Slightly smaller damage radius.

Fire Trap:
Pros:
- Can be preset.
- Slightly larger damage radius. Much larger if traited 20 into precision and critical damage.

Cons:
- 1s burn that pulses 3 times on a 15 second cooldown. Can be increased to duration of fire bomb if one traits 30 points into precision and critical damage.
- No other utilities.

What do you guys think of this?

I would much prefer the trap TBH. The simple fact that the range on fire bomb makes it so that you can literally walk out of it when an engi switches to bomb kit substantially hurts its ability to deal damage and what truly makes it an inferior skill in comparison…

But, from a ranger perspective, would you opt to use Flame Trap or offhand torch?

I’m having the same issues as everybody else.

While I understand and sympathize with where people are coming from, please don’t touch the axe. The axe is one of our condition builds strongest weapons. 5 bleeds on a decent duration and a short cooldown, chill and weakness, and the fairly high base damage of the axe auto attack, yes please.

Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch. Dagger 5, Dagger 4 into Axe 2, Swap weapons, sigil of geomancy lands, then torch 4, then just auto attack and watch things melt. Rinse and repeat if necessary.

Given this is limited to condition builds, but still. I would be all for an autoattack speed increase though. I’d also be agreeable that Honed Axes in Skirmishing doesn’t mesh well with how the weapon functions in most builds.

You have Vigorous Training selected with no pet that benefits from that trait selection. If I may make a suggestion, depending on whether or not that trait choice is a fluke or if you meant to have moas/birds selected, if you didn’t, you can always drop 5 point in Beastmastery and pick them up in Wilderness Survival.

More dodges never hurts.

Kasama.8941:

jcbroe.4329:

Kasama.8941:

When you consider that the Ranger has cripple on sword auto-attack, and can use a dog with knockdown and immobilize, suddenly Fire Trap looks a lot better.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glue_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glue_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Freeze_Grenade

Oh, and none of those are controlled by pet AI. Them being player controlled means having a higher potential success rate, depending on the skill level of the player. And also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder

Does flame trap really look that good? Cuz I’m really not seeing it, and I can list positives of the ranger class for days.

The keyword is “auto-attack”, meaning you don’t have to exhaust any of your other skills when you use Fire Trap.

I wasn’t trying to be rude, really. I’m just pointing out that regardless of the placement of the effects of the attack, the engineer can do it equally well. Our own weaponsets are better than our traps, for starters.

Yes, ranger auto attack is amazingly useful, but even if engis have to burn another cooldown, they still do the same effect that we did, as the damage is tied to the Fire Bomb and they have multiple utilities to be able to use it on cooldown.

No, rangers don’t have to burn as many cooldowns. But they also have to have a higher trait investment, and at the end of the day, are bringing a fairly weak utility to the fight when compared to other condition classes.

Kasama.8941:

When you consider that the Ranger has cripple on sword auto-attack, and can use a dog with knockdown and immobilize, suddenly Fire Trap looks a lot better.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glue_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glue_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Freeze_Grenade

Oh, and none of those are controlled by pet AI. Them being player controlled means having a higher potential success rate, depending on the skill level of the player. And also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder

Does flame trap really look that good? Cuz I’m really not seeing it, and I can list positives of the ranger class for days.

I don’t think he’s complaining at all. I think what he’s trying to point out (possibly) is that at their base values, Fire Bomb is much better than Flame Trap, and even though Flame Trap can be made equally effective, it requires much more trait investment than Fire Bomb to be effective.

Awhile ago though, after playing my fair share of all of the other classes, particularly engineers and necromancers, I came to the conclusion that traps are actually fairly weak options considering the amount of investment they need, and the recharges they have for the small amount of effects they do. Really the only thing they have going for them is being unblockable.

Example: Take offhand torch and dagger, with Offhand Training traited. Now, you can output the same duration burn as if an opponent stood in flame trap the whole time, with one throw torch, AND add more burning with torch 5 on top of that. You can perma-poison with offhand dagger, and throw dagger is better than Spike Trap in every way, even with losing the immobilize.

If anything, the biggest loss is the AoE. And really, that’s probably only useful in PvE, because in PvP, why take a trap ranger when you can take an engi that can proc burning as they throw every other condition at you from up to 1500 range, or necro marks, that can do that same exact thing.

tl;dr: traps aren’t that great, like, at all.

You may as well be asking why the rabid armor typing (or in pvp, the rabid amulet) exists.

There’s nothing wrong with traps being in the Skirmishing trait line, considering that it isn’t as though any of the other utilities help power builds. The problem is that Skirmishing doesn’t offer power builds any decent slot skill options. Moment of Clarity could easily be integrated into other traits (removing Instinctual Bond and creating a trait the gives your pet an Attack of Opportunity on pet swap, add a trait in Beastmastery that gives the player the effect too. Take the +50% stun/daze and add it on to the Skirmishing 25 point trait), allowing for a grandmaster slot to open up and be used for an option more useful to power builds. There are also many adept and master traits that could be moved and/or scrapped in Skirmishing and replaced with similarly helpful to power build options.

The traps wouldn’t even have to move, and at this point in the balancing stage, would be a terrible move if they were to be put into Wilderness Survival, because you would be forced to give up your best defensive options (yes, they are literally all in WS) in order to make traps better. NOBODY would use traps outside of PVE if they were moved. It would be just about the biggest nerf to the trap build rangers could even receive.

Chopps.5047:

No because it’s helping me get precision on this build for zerg v zerg:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRBHfdG2IRVbdeliFrdgY9gQ7fQ8DGyzYU+PljUF1eA-jkyAIsASCApKA59ioxWFLiGrWHQ1gpVXUtXBwJwoVLCgZOA-w

I call it Hydralisk v1.1. It’s a crowd sourced ranger zerg theorycrafting thread. Please help build it. And please, don’t move spotter UNLESS you’re going to make it adept in marks. Don’t put it in skirmishing.

You know you’re at a point with that build where you may as well just be running full celestial right? If you can get the ascended trinkets that is. But you get virtually the same stat spread, and that’s without any runes. Take a look: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRBHfdG2IRVbdeliFrdgY9gQ7fQ8DGyzYU+PljUF1eA-j0wAo+Am8LiGrqmIqGA-w

Back to discussion: I think it’s a fair debate whether or not Spotter should be an adept in Marksmanship or Skirmishing. If it was in Skirmishing, it would allow direct damage builds to take all of the most beneficial traits provided to them, and if it were in Marksmanship, it would allow for a smaller trait distribution, at the cost of having to compete with Steady Focus.

So there it’s a toss up, and it’s definitely worth a debate over the opportunity cost of either change. Ultimately, it probably won’t happen, even though an underlying notion of this thread is to highlight exactly how non-beneficial the Skirmishing trait line is for direct damage builds in terms of trait selection.

Castaliea.3156:

Its funny because now, as I remember it…I had already suggested moving it to adept lol. xD

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Comprehensive-Ranger-Suggestions/first#post2550550

Haha, sorry I didn’t bump the topic then!

If you’re suggesting that the longbow, in order to be viable for the damage it deals, needs to be 2500 range, then without breaking the game environment, aren’t you really just asking that given the current range, you’d like the weapon to be more effective? I’m just going to go out on a limb here and say that most people don’t think the longbow, or the ranger as a whole, has enough burst damage, and that the sustain style is countered so heavily by boons that without any boon removal, the combination of the aforementioned items is what leaves people wanting more from the longbow.

If it’s that, then I can totally get behind that. But not a range increase lol. The system doesn’t even currently handle ranged attacks very well, so let’s not make a farther range for things to break.

You learn to live with the pet, but you’re never satisfied if you don’t initially like it, if that makes any sort of sense. There is no defining moment where you’ll do a 180 and think “I actually really like this.” You’ll have moments where you go “that was useful,” but much more of the time, you’re left going “….what? why?”

I’ve played ranger since guild wars 1 was released, and while the transition to guild wars 2 made rangers comparatively into RINOs (rangers in name only, haha), I have always been distinctly drawn to them.

Never the pet though. I think that if I had been forced to use the pet in guild wars 1, I just wouldn’t have played ranger, and because of that I probably wouldn’t be on these profession subforums right now.

So in essence, with my long term personal experience with the ranger, if you don’t like the pet mechanic now, then you won’t like it down the road unless its changed to be made better. I have some sort of bleak optimism that it will eventually happen, and I personally can’t stand the way any of the other classes “feel” in this game, so it really is still a matter of the pet and what it’s implications are that keeping me from being 100% satisfied with the class.

That being said, I love my ranger, and I love killing people in PvP/WvW on my ranger. It just feels so right. So that’s what my ultimate advice is. If it feels right for you, then it probably is, don’t let other people discourage you from having fun.

Substance E.4852:

While I agree it makes more sense I would only want the switch if it were made an adept trait so I can run honed axes and spotter at the same time when using the axe as my ranged weapon choice.

That’s what I was thinking. Especially since I believe that every other class that gives out trait passives to allies is adept. Particularly, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_in_Numbers

I’ll add this clarification to the OP.

I can’t give an exact example, but more of a system. If amulets are kept as they are (aka no new combinations), then damage should be reworked to match ideal time to kill based on the offensive AND defensive stat investments.

Let’s say that a berserkers geared, full direct damage builds ideal time to kill is 10 seconds. That then should be the fastest time to kill. Following should be a series of calculations to determine what amulets provide what bonuses and the times to kill for each of them.

For instance, now take a rabid build. Well, conditions are direct damage, and damage over time. They are stronger in that sense than direct damage, which is mitigated through toughness, evaded, or dealt with through invulnerability. So, the time to kill should be calculated as longer, but equate to a higher sustained pressure damage if the target allows itself to have stacks built onto itself.

Then, we have to account for toughness being a defensive stat. Since 100 toughness roughly equates to be like a 3-4% damage reduction, then a rabid amulet provides about a 20% direct damage reduction. Now let’s combine everything. Let’s say, condition damage at full stacks also takes 10s to kill, but it takes an addition 10s to reach full stacks, so 20s total. However, because it’s constantly stacking and doing more damage, instead of being 20s in actuality, it’s probably more like 15-16s. Then, factor in the toughness, and take the fastest time to kill in the game of 10s, and add 20% to compensate for rabid having that defense that berserkers don’t, meaning for rabid, 12s full stack kill, 10 more seconds to stack, actual time to kill, 17-18s.

That’s just an example, but that would be the base starting point that is needed. If spam to win skill styles are kept, than their damage needs to be reduced so that the pace of the game slows down and more skill is required in damaging your opponent in more opportune manners that don’t rely so heavily on blowing all cooldowns, sometimes in a particular order, and things melting.

ANet already did your suggesting though, it was called guild wars 1. And with the unwillingness to recycle old ideas because of the need to reinvent the wheel, well, you see where the game is.

True, but there is Steady Focus in the adept slot, which is fairly strong. Still a case can be made either way.

As long as the moving it part is agreed upon haha, that’s the part that takes precedence.

Should be moved to Skirmishing?

Reasons being that:

1) Marksmanship has lots of useful tools, but suffers particularly from having to choose between Spotter, Eagle Eye, and Piercing Arrow, and this would alleviate that problem.

2) It makes sense logically. Skirmishing is a precision/crit line with a very abundant lack of traits that benefit direct damage builds, and being able to trait into precision to give you and your allies a precision (and therefore damage) boost seems reasonable, and a good step towards making Skirmishing traits more useful for direct damage builds.

Thoughts? I’m not sure it would alter anything in a negative (and it would allow builds to take Piercing Arrow, Eagle Eye, AND Spotter at the same time).

Edit: Also, it should be made clear that Spotter in my example is being moved to the adept tier in Skirmishing, to be kept in line with similar bonuses (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_in_Numbers)

Fomby.4295:

I like a 30/20/20/0/0 or 30/25/15/0/0 zerker GS/LB with signets of hunt, stone, and either of the other two.

A 30/x/30/x/x build sounds like a good idea also, IF you can get enough precision. Which I can’t really do in spvp. Not sure how much you can get, but the crit damage can’t be that high.

You mean something like this? (this is my 30/10/30 setup, though I also play with 20/20/30)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNBjYDbkoqyuvSwi1OQseAo9Ho2jMpJMxKYIA-jUyAYMBZyigcyTZNBKIWULiGreBTVCoOXUt7oIa1A-w

I’m curious, for the ascended pieces, why did you choose to go with Rampagers over the Rabid+Apothecary mix (on the builder can be found under the condition damage category)?’

I’m guessing it isn’t worth the sacrifice in power stat?