Guild Wars 2

Mr Pin.6728:

Interesting from a balance standpoint. My first thoughts were:

The pet damage nerf did nothing to accomplish its goal. It seems in small skirmish fights the ranger can still regenerate more damage then can be dealt by a single player. Thus, while their healings go into cool down the ranger has a nearly infinite source of regeneration. The ranger wins or at least escapes every time. Its a war of attrition that the ranger wins. So the bunker build is untouched by the nerf. The power builds however…

Maybe the rangers regeneration needs to be looked at and hit. Its the troll ugent, (I think) the evasion in the melee attacks and the boon duration armor combo that’s unbalancing this build. (at least in a small team spvp type setting) Well that and players were doing stupid things.

Actually, the community that called for the nerfs to the ranger (high level tpvp players) no longer even think that the bunker build for rangers is viable. It could have something to do with the power creep instilled by the condi cleave meta, but right now the only build people are targeting is the Spirit Build for nerfs.

Really, if people were going to run a bunker busting build against a ranger, the regen would be next to nothing for survival (a necromancer can absolutely melt the bunker build, as well as engis having the potential to do so. Anything with poison really). In that sense I think the build is extremely balanced, it accomplishes the goal of bunkering/survival, without being able to burst down opponents, but still having sources of counterplay.

@Puandro, always love the vids.

I’m saying that leaps are not interrupted by dodges. Use any other leap skill on any other class in the game.

More over, it isn’t necessarily that it is a leap, it’s that the auto attack takes your character airborne. My point was that if it was a bug, why even go through the trouble as a dev of designing it as is so that players go airborne on autoattack when its obvious it will create the issue of being unable to dodge out of it?

That’s why I’m trying to say that it isn’t really a bug, and that the function stays true across the entire game.

Is it a good mechanic? Even if I said yes, I would be in the minority, so its obvious that it isn’t a good mechanic.

But it really is time to stop calling it a bug. What people are requesting is a change in the animation of the sword auto attack to make it more flow more smoothly with the rest of the games content, ie; the updates that the Engineers rifle received to make it function more smoothly in combat.

It isn’t a bug.

gotkitten ed.5318:

jcbroe.4329:

It’s amazing that we can train dogs to stop kittenting on the carpet, but we can’t teach the ranger community to adapt, develop a higher skill set, and stop crying.

Guess I should adapt to my Car making weird noises instead getting it fixed?
If this is a bug it needs to be fixed period.

If it was a bug it would have been fixed. It isn’t a bug, so it hasn’t been fixed. Unless animations are bugs now.

By the way, my Remorseless suggestion was supposed to say 45 second cooldown. Seems the forum thought I was trying to used mixed 1337speak for butt -.-

Lots of agreeable ideas in this thread, it’s nice to see something constructive and not whiny for once.

My contribution: Reducing the amount of passive effects in the game overall. Passive condition removal particularly should be more active, but only if conditions are less passively applied (autoattacks for instance).

Particularly, if this game is going to push for streaming viewership, there needs to be some understanding that watching a class do strong condition just by strafing and autoattacking (or spamming on a short cooldown), and then watching the defender drop all the conditions randomly, and then have the commentators explain that you passively apply and remove them and then describe the builds so that viewers understand, is boring.

It drastically slows down the pace of the combat, and provides a lot less active/reactive playstyles, because a condition build can just spam conditions and the only way to truly counter is to build for passive removal. Such playstyles just don’t push the competitive level of the game as high as it could potentially be, making it less fun (and harder) to watch overall.

It’s amazing that we can train dogs to stop kittenting on the carpet, but we can’t teach the ranger community to adapt, develop a higher skill set, and stop crying.

Priest.8752:

jcbroe.4329:

Not that one I have posted, but it is an option. I’ll post a link for you, and you can fill in your weapon, rune, and accessory choices (I like to mix and match with berserkers, but that is a personal preference).

Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQBNSUVW3VZZBaHIWF2T7RmkEmcPKl/PFA-j0wAJwioxqOJiq9HER1A-w

This is a very basic skeleton layout, so that you can add in the weapons you’d like and runes, and switch around accessories and accessory upgrades as necessary. Also, when it comes to utility selection, what was described in the original posts still applies, although I now believe that Sun Spirit does more damage against targets that can burn than Frost Spirit.

Would this not be better with condi gear instead of knights?

The main post is in condi gear. But the point is, if you are zerging in WvW, which is what a lot of people choose to do in WvW, then condi gear doesn’t really do the job because targets drop too fast for you to do meaningful damage. So the Spirits are there to boost your teammates damage, as well as bolster your own, because Sun Spirit is still outputting more damage per burning tick than Frost Spirit, and Frost Spirit would have to proc back to back to back to make up the difference, which is statistically unlikely. Also, providing group protection isn’t too shabby either.

It’s just the zerg version is all. In a attempt to do enough meaningful damage to register for loot, while running Spirits, which are still helping.

I think listening to Zoose complain about 1 spam on a scepter/dagger ele, whose main DPS comes from 1 spamming in air attunement, is very ironic.

God forbid something makes their team change tactics, especially based on how little they understand rangers. Most of their team doesn’t have a clue about the ins and outs of the rangers builds.

All these top tier players biases are disgusting to me, and it ends up revolving around the idea that if rangers can kill something, or can do anything other than just die, than rangers are too strong, and they don’t know how to play, and their passive playstyle is carrying them.

Watching the video, I honestly fail to see how Zoose is a top tier player.

dasaybz.9524:

So is this build using all Knight’s gear?

Not that one I have posted, but it is an option. I’ll post a link for you, and you can fill in your weapon, rune, and accessory choices (I like to mix and match with berserkers, but that is a personal preference).

Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQBNSUVW3VZZBaHIWF2T7RmkEmcPKl/PFA-j0wAJwioxqOJiq9HER1A-w

This is a very basic skeleton layout, so that you can add in the weapons you’d like and runes, and switch around accessories and accessory upgrades as necessary. Also, when it comes to utility selection, what was described in the original posts still applies, although I now believe that Sun Spirit does more damage against targets that can burn than Frost Spirit.

jubskie.3152:

Lunchbox.9543:

Personally i’d swap sharpened edges for companion’s might to boost the burn damage from sun spirit procs that the pet will be applying.

if I recall correctly, the burning damage is calculated using the Ranger’s condition damage, not the pet or other players, npcs etc. that are triggering it. I know it is affected by the duration increases from the Ranger.

Can anyone confirm? This is pretty big stuff O_O

I thought I answered it above (in response to companions might) lol. I tested it in the mists though before I posted it, but even if it does proc off the pet, it wouldn’t reach the damage potential that Sharpened Edges has.

However, if what Lunchbox is saying is true, then Sun Spirit is always going to proc off of the rangers condition damage, which means that it is most likely always a better option than Frost Spirit unless you’re attacking something that can’t be burned. Unfortunately, without enough people to coordinate the test, nobody is going to know how much damage is being done by somebody else that procs your sun spirit.

Battosai.5620:

i suggest running ten points into marksmanship and taking sharpening stone on procc.
i run the spirit build with a carrion amulet + rabid jewel ( think i’ve explained it somewhere here a few days ago) and with forge runes.
forge runes give burning duration + protection duration.
so with 30 points into nature magic you get 3 seconds of protection on dodgeroll.
furthermore you will increase your burning duration by 25%, also your survivability is higher in this condi meta due to the high hp pool ( you still have 2520 armor with around 80-90% protection uptime; once you drop below 50% health you get 15 seconds of protection from forge #6 on a 60 second cooldown, which makes it an effective 45 second cd) and your pressure is higher than rabid as well due to the added power damage.
the thing that makes spirits atm so strong is that each spirit can procc each others spirits passive effects – so the immobilize suddenly burns and same goes for the active of the lightning spirit, giving you little to no downtime on burning without going for torch offhand or any other burn utility.
there’s some more tricks to it i’m not willing to share as of yet.

That makes a lot of sense given the meta, and is a stronger option currently. I was just putting up the setup that I’ve been running on my ranger for some time.

Unfortunately I haven’t tpvp’d in awhile because of no team and solo q vs premades. Its much more of a boycott than anything; I don’t agree with trying to play tournies solo in their current form, especially when hotjoins already have all of the functions in place to create a successful solo q and it hasn’t happened. However, I find myself to be adequately aware of whats going on in tournies, and I would be capable of holding my own on my class against upper bracket teams if I could manage to find a team, but the population is too small lol :/

That being said, the reason why I hadn’t really adapted the build just yet is because I’m not sure how (or if) the necro build (which is the main problem imo for rangers in the condi meta) is going to get changed for the upcoming tournies for EU/NA.

All that being said, I’m sure your build is a more “tried and true” setup because of how often you get to test it against other high level players and optimize it accordingly. I was just posting up a general (and still very effective) version of the Spirit Build that could also be adapted to WvW to try to cover a wider array of playstyles.

Also, tricks you’re not willing to share? That seems very vague, I wonder if I know them myself lol. I knew the Spirits could proc each other, I’m still debating whether or not to put it in the main posts. I’ll have to figure out myself if there is any real setup for it (besides immobilize being good for setting up damage in general, and potentially being able to use it to land Storm Spirits active which additionally can proc sun spirit).

But thank you for the advice/contribution, it’s always appreciated. I’ll update it to the bottom of my third OP with as much description as I can fit, but I can’t guarantee that the sigil choices will optimized, or even good choices.

Remorseless: Doubles duration of Vulnerability applied by Opening Strikes. Opening Strikes renews on a kitten cooldown.

It makes sense as a variation. I’m still personally pretty dead set on Sharpened Edges. I honestly don’t think the shortbow is a good weapon in condition builds without it lol.

jubskie.3152:

I’ve actually been playing this with great success since the last patch I really like this sPvP build

Added to the compilation thread!

Awesome!

Also, I’m going to edit in some info I just learned real quick and have been playing around with this morning.

New utility options section at the bottom (I tried to layout my thread like a page from smogon lol).

Lumn.2951:

Personally i’d swap sharpened edges for companion’s might to boost the burn damage from sun spirit procs that the pet will be applying.

The damage output isn’t as high as Sharpened Edges. On average, I can keep about 5 stacks of might on the pet, and condition damage for burning increase +25 for every 100 condition damage. 5 stacks of might is only 175 condition damage which is a bit less than a +50 damage increase, and Sharpened Edges has no ICD, meaning it can proc twice every ~1.2s, which is a +216 base damage increase without stacks of corruption.

Although I’m not accounting for the +175 power the pet also receives, which could equal out in the end.

Expiatus.4210:

Jcbroe, thanks for posting. This looks interesting.

Questions:
How often does protection stay up? Or in other words, have you experienced a gap in the protection buff due to spirit time out/death etc?

Also, how effective are have Solar Flare and Quicksand? Do they hit your opponent(s) or do you have to lead them into it like a trap?

There are times when the Spirit is dead, but the longest gap in time I’ve experienced is about 20s of downtime on the Spirits, and with the attack speed of the shortbow, having the Stone Spirit up means having protection basically when you’re capable of proccing the hit.

As far as Solar Flare and Quicksand, I land the blind a lot more than the initial immobilize, but people seem to like walking through the quicksand and crippling themselves. I land them much more when I’m defending/contesting points though, because it forces the opponent to be in range of them.

Manekk.6981:

jcbroe.4329:

Manekk.6981:

Forzani.2584:

Manekk.6981:

Forzani.2584:

Test it in duels. As mentioned earlier I had a long duel session with a thief. I won every duel quite handily. He kept changing things up and still losing…until he made it a point to use a weapon set that constantly reapplied poison. after that it was game over. My heals went for kitten because empathic bond couldn’t keep up.

Now this was before they fixed Evasive Purity. I haven’t tested it yet but I am hoping that will keep the poisons off

I do duel all the time and while I won’t say conditions can’t be a problem they most certainly can but generally that is only if they get stacked I find, however I might just not see it your way simply because I have never been that dependant on strong regens almost all my builds have been with realtively low healing power I don’t think anyone has been over 800 and most at or below 500 when I did use only empathic bond though the only thing that really bothered me was soft pets getting overstacked with conditions sometimes like I said before.

Yea that might be the difference. My healing was always over 1000. The condition damage was manageable with my heals. It’s just that when poisons were involved, and healing was halved, that things would fall apart.

They’re not halved it’s 30% less (isn’t it?) but yeah anyway I always had much more trouble from burst classes than conditions, in general anyway.

Yes, 30%.

@Poison argument, in general, I don’t think that they meant for bunker builds to be unstoppable. Most classes don’t really have widespread access to poison to begin with, meaning that really only thieves, necros, and engis can apply it consistently. Of those choices, necros and engis result in attrition wars which could go either way, because the poison in their builds is really on strong on condition builds. So that really only leaves thieves who can setup with poison to burst through the constant regen and healing. That means that they also have to survive, and use their skills appropriately and at the right time so that they don’t waste a burst attempt as poison is cleansed.

Poison really helps to make bunker builds more killable, which is a fair tradeoff considering how well certain classes can bunker and how skilled a player has to be or how coordinated a team has to be to take full advantage of poison on a bunker.

That being said, Evasive Purity on a 0/0/30/20/20 or 0/0/30/30/10 or some other variation can deal with poison just fine at the cost of a bit of damage output.

I would like to put rangers on that list too actually we might not be as good as them (I don’t really know what tools they have to apply poison) but we certainly got plenty of it ourselves sword+dagger is very good shortbow too and maybe a trap I used to run that before (aside from the trap) it’s solid and also gives great defence with tons of evade.

Well I didn’t mention ranger because I was specifically thinking versus bunker ranger in my head, but I realize now I generalized against all bunkers, so good catch haha.

Manekk.6981:

Forzani.2584:

Manekk.6981:

Forzani.2584:

Test it in duels. As mentioned earlier I had a long duel session with a thief. I won every duel quite handily. He kept changing things up and still losing…until he made it a point to use a weapon set that constantly reapplied poison. after that it was game over. My heals went for kitten because empathic bond couldn’t keep up.

Now this was before they fixed Evasive Purity. I haven’t tested it yet but I am hoping that will keep the poisons off

I do duel all the time and while I won’t say conditions can’t be a problem they most certainly can but generally that is only if they get stacked I find, however I might just not see it your way simply because I have never been that dependant on strong regens almost all my builds have been with realtively low healing power I don’t think anyone has been over 800 and most at or below 500 when I did use only empathic bond though the only thing that really bothered me was soft pets getting overstacked with conditions sometimes like I said before.

Yea that might be the difference. My healing was always over 1000. The condition damage was manageable with my heals. It’s just that when poisons were involved, and healing was halved, that things would fall apart.

They’re not halved it’s 30% less (isn’t it?) but yeah anyway I always had much more trouble from burst classes than conditions, in general anyway.

Yes, 30%.

@Poison argument, in general, I don’t think that they meant for bunker builds to be unstoppable. Most classes don’t really have widespread access to poison to begin with, meaning that really only thieves, necros, and engis can apply it consistently. Of those choices, necros and engis result in attrition wars which could go either way, because the poison in their builds is really on strong on condition builds. So that really only leaves thieves who can setup with poison to burst through the constant regen and healing. That means that they also have to survive, and use their skills appropriately and at the right time so that they don’t waste a burst attempt as poison is cleansed.

Poison really helps to make bunker builds more killable, which is a fair tradeoff considering how well certain classes can bunker and how skilled a player has to be or how coordinated a team has to be to take full advantage of poison on a bunker.

That being said, Evasive Purity on a 0/0/30/20/20 or 0/0/30/30/10 or some other variation can deal with poison just fine at the cost of a bit of damage output.

Resign worked just fine in guild wars 1, and I was surprised when it wasn’t implemented here in guild wars 2. Bringing it back would be a perfect solution (remember that all players on a team had to resign for the function to work and the game to end).

Pet Choice:

I’m not going to go over every potential pet option in the game, I’m just going to explain my choice of Wolf and Drakehound. Canines by default provide the best pressure against moving opponents, and the wolf and drakehounds F2 abilities are very control oriented, which ranger weapon skills severely lack. Overall canines are one of the best choices for this build due to the aforementioned reasons.

Playstyle:

This is a movement based playstyle. In a very concise quote: “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.” Shortbow is very control oriented, while providing one of the best pressure outputs in the game. Sit at a distance and circle strafe, cripple, daze, stun, whatever it takes to keep them away from you and the damage off of you. Most classes can’t deal with you at range due to the high toughness and good vitality of this build, and the spirits can actually absorb quite a bit of single target damage for you. Classes that can (necros particularly) are unable to deal with the high amount of evasion you can achieve, so as long as dodges and evades are utilized properly, you will almost always come out on top. Just remember; positioning is everything. Do not jump into the fray in teamfights if you can sit back and attack. Your damage doesn’t get any better any closer, but you can keep spirits up better if they are out of cleave range, as well as you making yourself a harder target to focus down in general. In small fights or 1v1s, just keep moving. You have the options to keep most melee opponents from ever landing hits on you, and you can outdamage most ranged opponents.

WvW: In WvW, condition damage isn’t necessarily the best option for bigger groups. In small groups you’ll be fine, and you can switch out lightning reflexes for Signet of the Hunt when traveling, with full rabid gear.

However, if you choose to go power, I personally think the best option would be to go 10/0/30/30/0 with Steady Aim, and Knights Armor. You can switch to the longbow if that’s you preference, since you might need a 1200 range weapon, and will probably be in a larger group, with sword dagger as your other set, and Sun Spirit being replaced by Frost Spirit, since stacking burning on a single target won’t net as much damage output as 10% more on a hit, mostly because you have to fight for condition “slots” and targets generally melt to groups, so you want to be as useful as possible while being able to bolster your own damage. Alternatively, P/V/T armor could work fine, though you would lose out on damage output because of less crits, in favor of more vitality to have a bit more staying power.

The Elite in WvW can also be changed based on preference. Entangle is always a good harass option, even better in the rabid build than a power build. Rampage as One is always beneficial for its stability as well. I’m not fully versed with all of the racial elites, but just use your judgement, as the elite doesn’t really change the effectiveness of the build in WvW as much as it does in PvP.

Utility options: Sun Spirit and Stone Spirit are both strong options, however, for an even more offensive build, you can choose to go with Storm Spirit over Lightning Reflexes. It may seem strange at first, but with this build, Storm Spirit hits between 2.5k and 3k damage noncrit. It is a much more offensive option, but will leave you without an active stun breaker, so the tradeoff is up to you.

Current condi meta build as discussed with Battosai: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8YjEVl1dVOVg2BiVBB1ekJJhJ3jS5/TVwmK-TsAgyCpIATBmDMDYSwsgN8Y5xeBA

This build accomplishes providing a high vitality rating to survive the condition output of the current about of condition focused builds in the metagame. As described by Battosai below, it has high protection uptime, and a very decent armor rating considering how offensive the build is designed to be, making the build very strong at survival, as well as condition pressure. Weapons were not discussed, however, Shortbow is a simple poking at range option so that you don’t have to risk the spirits deaths and can have more leeway on when to enter melee range with spirits, while sword/dagger is a bread and butter survival option with lots of evades to help survival, and to aid the tactic of attrition by evading damage while letting conditions tick on them. Another option would be to go axe/dagger in a more offensive setup, to be able to burst bleeds while still having the amazing dagger 4 evade.

Trait Choices:

Sharpened Edges: Adding points to skirmishing in general for bleed procs from sigil of earth is useful, but Sharpened Edges serves to put out even more pressure, since you’ll be critting quite often and condition damage ignores toughness. The only other option here is Agility Training to have your pet keep up with the enemy. However, I feel that the pressure output is better with Sharpened Edges, which is why I run it, because I prefer the damage to be on the player.

Shared Anguish: This is a free stunbreak, and essentially allows you to take 2 stunbreaks into a fight. I can’t begin to express how many times this has saved me, especially in 1vX situations where a single stun break just won’t cut it. However, another good option for teamfight situations particularly is Vigorous Renewal. Pulsing Vigor may not help rangers out as much because it doesn’t really stack with Natural Vigor, but the rest of the team will sure benefit from it.

Offhand Training: This makes torch even more amazing. A 1200 range burn, and now torch 5 covers the entire point on most maps. Very useful, and a strong skirmishing option overall. You can also opt for Hide in Plain Sight, which is a target drop on CC, which is useful as well, but when you stealth, you are no longer holding the point, which lessens the usefulness of the option, and your ability to perform. Another good choice here is Martial Mastery, because it means your sword evades will recharge faster, meaning potentially more survival. It is a more defensive option though, and I prefer the offensive option.

Empathic Bond: This is rangers most reliable cleansing. I wouldn’t ever use a single build without it at this point, unless rangers get some other strong cleansing option.

Vigorous Spirits: More health and more easily activated spirit effects. This is like a must on the Spirit build, and it’s an absolute BnB (bread and butter) choice.

Nature’s Vengeance: This is a very PvP oriented option. It allows active effects to be larger and makes the spirits trigger them on death. This option can be absolutely amazing in team fights with the elite Spirit, because its another free group Rez on Spirit death. Additionally, for the utility spirits, it allows you to punish people who kill your spirits. They may not be the best active effects ever, but a long duration blind and a 2s immobilize can definitely help you gain the advantage in a fight. The only other option I would consider here is Nature’s Protection. The protection gained from it can be a life saver, and is probably the better option in WvW especially.

Spirits Unbound: This is the other BnB for this build. You are now capable of roaming with your support. You spend less time finding a safe spot and you are more capable of taking spirits where they are needed. However, a big part of using this trait is knowing not to jump into cleave range of heavy damage. Sit back, use your bow, and control the enemy with shortbow 4 and 5, and leaps with 3. Most singular opposing players won’t have the cleave to be able to instantly kill the spirits and still win the fight, so take advantage of good positioning and play keep away until burning procs on top of all the bleeds and poison and they melt or run.

Weapons:

Shortbow: absolutely necessary. The other option is axe/dagger, but I personally don’t like that option because it requires point blank range to be effective, which means you have to sacrifice your positioning often to do more damage and it can potentially get your spirits killed, rendering the build less effective. With shortbow, you are going to be able to sustain very good damage and bleeds, while strafing and playing keep away with enemies, and it is a very effective tool for this build.

Sword: This is going to be your utility and defense weapon. You have a permanent cripple on autoattack when needed, as well as an evade back and a leap, which can be utilized as a leap through Healing Spring, or a disengage. Sword 3 is very useful for staying alive, and can also really mess with opponents that have telegraphed damage skills, like D/D eles. I think sword right now is a necessary option on every ranger build. Some people argue greatsword, but I think that once people get over the learning curve of the sword, it is the better weapon.

Torch: This is how you keep permanent burning on your target. It is your go to damage weapon. There is not a better choice for damage output. For a more defensive option, you can go with dagger, but you will lose the ability to keep up permanent burning, which is the strongest source of damage in this build.

Amulet:

Rabid: High condition damage, strong toughness rating and precision rating. There isn’t a better damage option for this particular build, and it helps immensely with survival.

Keep in mind as I discuss this build, I’m primarily playing it in a PvP setting. Not to say that the build wouldn’t be viable across a wide array of content, but there would definitely be tweaks to be made.

Layout of this thread: build link, text version with trait choice discussion and optional choices, then weapon choice discussion and optional weapon choices, then overall discussion and strategy, with options for WvW.

Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjEVl1dVWWg2Bi2jMZeMxKYI3jSRqTVwmK-TsAAzCpI+S9l7LzXyisFNqYVxeBA

Text:
0/10/30/30/0

Skirmishing: Sharpened Edges

Wilderness Survival: Shared Anguish, Offhand Training, Empathic Bond

Nature Magic: Vigorous Spirits, Nature’s Vengeance, Spirits Unbound

Heal: Healing Spring

Utilities: Sun Spirit, Stone Spirit, Lightning Reflexes

Elite: Spirit of Nature

Weapons: Shortbow with Sigil of Earth, Sword with Sigil of Earth, Torch with Sigil of Minor Corruption

Amulet: Rabid Amulet with Rabid Jewel

Unless Team Paradigm switches their line up in the next two weeks, then Symbolic will probably still be on ranger (I think he was running spirits the last time I looked).

@PvP comments in general with the upcoming tournies, if they do in fact tweak necros to not be so powerful, rangers will at least be able to compete with a spot on team comps. No they don’t bring much to a team fight, but rangers are probably one of the best home point holders and far point assaulters in the game. Certain teams might choose to capitalize on that and build the rest of the team for a 4 man team fight while leaving the ranger solely on its own for roaming between points, providing back up when necessary.

The only other classes that can do this semi successfully are S/D thieves (which build glass and can be killed very easily, and also provide even less team support than rangers, besides single target damage), and bomb engineers like Teldo, and while those are successful, the skill cap on that engi build is very high and not many players have been seen playing up to that skill level besides Teldo (not that there aren’t any, but they are rarely seen on streamed Scrims/competitions).

So as long as necros get their ability to do so much damage on their terror builds brought in line with the current meta, I think people will see more rangers than they are currently expecting, because necros are very easy targets to focus down for a coordinated team, and a well played ranger has one of the best sustain abilities in the game, comparable to a bunker ele, though ele can spike heals on weapon skills, which is slightly better.

All in all though, rangers are still in need of tune ups, just like most other classes (except Guardian imo). I hope that when the tournies come around, the lack of build variation will provide some statistics and prove to be a testament that classes other options that weren’t chosen because they aren’t viable need to be brought up.

So that’s my take on it. I think in general the entire community that isn’t playing only guardian is pretty disappointed with the lack in haste of the balance updates, since certain things have been clearly unviable since launch.

I think the discussion needs to be shifted away from making Remorseless viable. It isn’t viable, because Opening Strikes aren’t a good mechanic.

Opening Strikes should refresh itself on a timer (let’s say 20s), and Remorseless can be replaced entirely with something new and more interesting, and potentially more viable.

Problem solved.

Prysin.8542:

i dont get why necros are favored over rangers in PVP though. no necro can ever hope to beat a ranger at the same skill level. Unless the ranger is a moron, there is no way it can loose to even a wellomancer.

It isn’t the well build that’s so powerful. People are taking necros for the 30/30/10 build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW7YjMad7hbSb87JEpCPD0jdRXAxoHITwoMA-TsAAzCpI+S9l7LzXyvsfNqYVxeBA

Or a 30/20/10/0/10 build like this one: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;044Z;1kHFG0A4oJkJ0;9;4TJ9-904A48-1;32;0EJG4;2hoHAhoHA2Vr

Both builds are extremely strong, and have very simple rotations with enough life force, of going 2,3,5 on the staff, the going into Death Shroud, and going 2,3,5 again. If Dhuumfire is activated during that rotation, the amount of damage output almost outright kills any target without stability that has less than ~16k hp, and if they hit you with spectral wall too, there’s basically nothing you can do but watch yourself die, provided they hit the fears in quick enough succession.

They are also taken for their team support option over rangers. Greater Marks on a Dhuumfire build puts out really strong pressure in team fights, and its completely unblockable. Dhuumfire essentially gives Necros the same type of output that rangers would have if rangers could instantly throw traps 1200 range.

Those builds for necro have really knocked rangers and engineers almost completely out of the meta, especially with rangers and engineers subsequent nerfs. A very specialized and skilled engineer still has a chance (Teldo), but rangers, if anything, are being taken either just to sit on back point, or to run the rabid Spirit build that gives added support in team fights, and then roam/point hold as necessary (which isn’t necessarily unique, and is doing the same thing that Teldo does on his Engi basically with less CC).

Durzlla.6295:

If say put a stun breaker on a spirit summon (or better yet active) spirit of storm anybody?

Spirit of Storm would be a welcome stun break, since its passive is the least “powerful” of the options.

Forzani.2584:

jcbroe.4329:

Forzani.2584:

Eurantien.4632:

The best Spirit Ranger NA wins almost every 1 v 1 with full rabid gear. He said this when he duels, “I just spam skills :p.” I also think it’s not that hard to use.

I play around with the editor and can’t find how to put it all together …always see something else I need . Really curious what spirits he uses…..and I am guessing he wouldn’t use a trap either.

I assume the crit is for Sharpened Edges.

Well this is the build they have listed on the gw2esports page: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-F7kF3;0wEFx-n2wDk-0;9k2a;29TT;25;036A36A;1KwF4F;1hoHAhJG42Vh

But this is how I build it: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjEVl1dVWWg2Bg2DNlETWBDdPKl0TB-TsAAzCpI+S9l7LzXyisFNqYVxeBA

The difference on the traits is mainly just Sharpened Edges and the Wilderness Tree, because I chose to use Shared Anguish and since I have a shortbow, Offhand training isn’t nearly as useful as having a target drop on CC.

If I was playing in a more organized group though I’d take Vigorous Renewal every time for pulsing Vigor for the group.

I like yours better right away because of the Sharpened Edges. At first glance Natures Vengeance doesn’t look that great. Although likely it is better for pvp…and since I am only WvW I don’t see the value.

Yeah it’s a PvP choice, because in team fights if the Spirits die, its another activation of a blind and immobilize, as well as another rez and full condi clear from the elite.

For WvW, I haven’t experimented yet, but right away my go to option is Nature’s Protection. It has probably helped me live through more burst rotations than I can count. Sun Spirit could also be replaced with Frost Spirit, because in PvP, you can stack a lot of burning, but there are less people and it can be more coordinated, giving burning a better chance to shine. But in WvW, in big enough groups, targets just melt, and they might not even live long enough for burning to matter.

Stone Spirit is absolutely amazing though, both its passive and its active.

Balance: We are being VERY careful w/ balance between now and the tournament so you guys don’t have builds changing every patch. This is why we did the larger balance patch last month – we wanted to do smaller and smaller changes as we get closer to the tourney. We know there is a perception that a few things are too strong right now, so we’ll be looking at those between now and the tourney.

So, reading between the lines a bit, does this also imply that options that are subpar for certain classes and therefore not viable are not going to be receiving any bolstering updates until after the tournament dates, in order to preserve the meta for the fairness of the tournaments?

Or does it mean that there will be a balance patch on the 23rd to take care of some higher priority items on the list so that everything is in place for the tournies?

So I’m taking this from this topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Pax-Prime-and-Guild-Wars-2/first#post2403772

But basically, the big one that affects us is:

Balance: We are being VERY careful w/ balance between now and the tournament so you guys don’t have builds changing every patch. This is why we did the larger balance patch last month – we wanted to do smaller and smaller changes as we get closer to the tourney. We know there is a perception that a few things are too strong right now, so we’ll be looking at those between now and the tourney.

That means that potentially, there won’t be another big patch until the end of august, except for maybe bringing a few really powerful builds (necros) in line with the rest of the meta.

I’m assuming that we aren’t going to see any huge changes until after the tournaments, and we’ll be lucky if we get more than bug fixes on July 30th (my estimated balance update date because its between tournies).

Happy, unhappy, agree, disagree, discuss.

Sarision.6347:

Having another stun breaker is welcome, but am I the only one who wants to see signets reworked to affect ranger first and pet when traited?

I wouldn’t mind the rework, but I think the devs know full well that almost nobody would use that trait lol. Honestly I’d rather see a merging of the ideas with a rework.
Like this:
Untraited:
Signet of the Hunt: Remains the same, active is a stun breaker
Signet of Renewal: Remains the same
Signet of the Wild: Remains the same but active affects both the player and pet for 6s
Signet of Stone: Remains the same but affects both the player and pet for 4s

Grandmaster Trait: Improves the effects of all signets
Signet of the Hunt: additionally, active effect grands 6s of swiftness
Signet of Renewal: passive removes 100% more conditions
Signet of the Wild: Duration goes to 12s
Signet of Stone: Duration goes to 8s

Some of those would definitely need to be playtested, but I think its a step towards making builds more effective and concise, while allowing skills from different utility trees to work together better than the currently do to create a little more diversity.

Forzani.2584:

Eurantien.4632:

The best Spirit Ranger NA wins almost every 1 v 1 with full rabid gear. He said this when he duels, “I just spam skills :p.” I also think it’s not that hard to use.

I play around with the editor and can’t find how to put it all together …always see something else I need . Really curious what spirits he uses…..and I am guessing he wouldn’t use a trap either.

I assume the crit is for Sharpened Edges.

Well this is the build they have listed on the gw2esports page: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-F7kF3;0wEFx-n2wDk-0;9k2a;29TT;25;036A36A;1KwF4F;1hoHAhJG42Vh

But this is how I build it: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjEVl1dVWWg2Bg2DNlETWBDdPKl0TB-TsAAzCpI+S9l7LzXyisFNqYVxeBA

The difference on the traits is mainly just Sharpened Edges and the Wilderness Tree, because I chose to use Shared Anguish and since I have a shortbow, Offhand training isn’t nearly as useful as having a target drop on CC.

If I was playing in a more organized group though I’d take Vigorous Renewal every time for pulsing Vigor for the group.

Well I’ve been running shortbow and sword/torch on my spirit setup, but I saw on the reddit gw2esports page with it listed as axe and sword with torch/dagger.

They are definitely both viable, I think the shortbow is actually better in this build to keep the spirits out of cleave range, which is why I was curious.

Well certain classes like thieves and mesmers have spammable stun breaks built right into their weapon skills (staff 2 for mesmer, sword 2 for thieves, etc).

It just depends where they want the availability of stun breaks to be on the ranger, and it would probably require some balancing. It just seemed that that one change boosts a whole lot of builds which would be very nice all around lol.

I wonder if the balance patch (assuming there is one this month) is going to be before the EU dates, or if its going to be on the 30th, right after. It may (or may not) change builds for the upcoming tournies.

Just a simple change, but I think making Signet of the Hunt a stun breaker would open up lots of options for builds because of bar compression.

Specifically, I’m thinking of Spirit builds, who would benefit from the constant mobility, as well as being able to break a stun at the cost of their mobility when needed.

In a PvP/WvW perspective, it would be a boon to a lot of different builds, and really help bolster other builds that are forced to sacrifice much needed mobility for a stun breaker, because they need the other two utility slots for the build to be effective (traps, spirits).

Just a thought, I don’t think it would hurt, but it’s worth discussing.

Eurantien.4632:

The best Spirit Ranger NA wins almost every 1 v 1 with full rabid gear. He said this when he duels, “I just spam skills :p.” I also think it’s not that hard to use.

Just curious, does he use a shortbow setup or an axe/x sword/x? I know of the build myself but I’m really not sure on the weapons, as they both have their ups and downs.

Rangers were fine in guild wars 1 competitively. The staple interrupt build could be altered for numerous support, CC, and harassment roles, while being able to split more efficiently than most other classes in the game.

The last thing the game needs is for the game to be balanced around PvE (note: I am NOT saying dungeons, those need balance as they are their own monster). PvE is basically doing the most damage the fastest in the largest possible radius, or to a single target in boss instances. To PvE effectively, all you have to be able to do is throw some traits into random things, then go to sleep on your keyboard.

I’d be the last person to dismiss the rangers problems, but I never want this game balanced around PvE, because the skill floor is so low monkeys at the zoo could figure it out, ESPECIALLY with the amount of good builds provided as resources.

PvP is where the balance needs to happen, and it isn’t as dramatically necessary as most people make it out to be. But really, if you can effectively kill another player, then you can effectively kill an AI with telegraphed attacks and poor movement abilities.

PvP/WvW/Dungeons are where the players have pushed the abilities of their classes to their fullest, and that is where the game should be balanced around.

Tychondus.4821:

Ahh i see it now. I guess that explains the delay before i get the boon back up again. That poses another question. How can protection be stacked? the boon says it can be stacked.

I’m not sure if you are asking how the stacking works, or the methods in which you can approach 100% uptime on it.

Frankly, the game wasn’t designed around being able to keep up boons like protection a lot. You can use them in a active/reactive to prepare for incoming damage, but other than that, there aren’t many classes that alone can attain high duration protection.

If you are asking how the stacking works however, its that when multiple sources provide protection, the durations don’t overwrite each other, and are instead added and a total duration is created.

I honestly don’t know what exactly is being asked, so I answered both.

I think the issue is that each pet activated is basically treated as a new object, and that the way the system is set up, it brings in a whole new set of variables. It would explain why the health is instantly reset and why conditions seem to disappear into thin air.

However, I think that it is a purely cosmetic issue, and that this particular issue does not take priority off of mechanic changes/polishes and balance updates. Once those are in a good place, then cosmetic changes can be treated with a little more precedence.

I use Dwayna Runes on all of my ranger builds, similar to how I take retaliation duration increase on all my guardian builds.

One thing rangers shine on better than any other class in the game (barring guardians) is passive mitigation (or as some people see it, constant health regeneration), so I build to try to capitalize on that, especially since the best pvp options we currently have are all condition based, leaving only the decision of whether to build for traps or pets, or spirit magic.

What I’m saying is that until there is something that rivals the effectiveness of building bunker, I’m going to stack the rangers ability for constant health regen through the roof, and unfortunately Evasive Purity isn’t in a state right now where it takes high priority for a trait slot.

Purely opinion though, it’s still good for helping Empathic Bond (and SoR/Healing Spring) with cleansing, but I’ll be more impressed when (if) the next patch delivers what was talked about in the SoTG; more active condi removal.

I’ve been considering switching to Evasive Purity. I’ve been running 0/0/30/20/20 for some time now, but always with Regen duration and Nature’s Protection, since I never really had much issue running into single targets running conditions.
Maybe if (good) necros start roaming lol.

I wish they would just change Evasive Purity to remove 1 condition on dodge with a 10s ICD. It would give a reliable cleanse outside of Empathic Bond, and I would definitely take it then.

I wanted to use this build (all I’d have to do is change traits/utilities) but I just can’t bring myself to after somebody pointed out the “Guard” is the only shout with a cast time (which doesn’t make sense at all). It bugs me so much that I would be annoyed the whole time I try to play lol.

I’m not sure what you’re running on the DD version (seemed like Greatsword and Sword/Axe) but I was going to suggest maybe the warhorn, mainly for its fury, since the swiftness is already covered. Not saying its optimal, but it is an option, and ranger warhorn provides one of the longer group wide fury durations in the game.

I think one of the big things the data could use is specifying which weapons are ranged and melee.

For instance:
-Of course warrior axe beats ranger axe, ranger axe is a 900 range weapon
-Of course ranger greatsword beats mesmer greatsword, mesmer greatsword is a 1200 range weapon

It would have been more interesting to see the mesmers greatsword autoattack ranges broken down and compared to the ranger longbow ranges (short, med, long comparisons) since they are the only 2 weapons that share that range based damage mechanic. Then there would actually be able to be some discussion as to how bad/good the rangers longbow mechanic actually is right now, with something solid to compare it to.

Wow, another thread made to defuse the status of the ranger in the game in order to highlight a potential path ANet might take in order to improve the class… only inspires more crying.

I figured the community would have been out of energy by now and would have become discouraged from crying in every ranger related post, but it seems I underestimated the persistence of you guys.

Anywho, to quote something for truth:

Tsohg.1798:

Chopps.5047:

Have any of you guys tried my mighty ranger build? Right? You’re all PvE’ers, right? Maybe you just aren’t playing ranger optimally?

Pvper here. And we’ve discussed this before Chopps, it’s not that we aren’t viable, it’s that everyone is a better choice than us. We’re like the Lone Wolves. We’re only good for soloing. We don’t share, don’t have a niche, and everyone does it better.

Best summary of the class within the metagame right now. Ranger power options need to be brought up, and anything that isn’t a necromancer is being overlooked if its running condition damage because of how strong necromancer’s output is right now.

They specifically said they were skipping that month in the SoTG though, so I would assume they would have done the same in the most recent SoTG if they were skipping another month.

Just an assumption though.

This was just a content release with a few scattered bug fixes. It’s much too early in the month for another balance update; they usually come on the last tuesday of the month, and there would normally be another SoTG before the next balance update (although I’m not sure how they’re handling it since the last SoTG was kind of in between updates and focused on prior changes with incoming things expected, so we might not see a SoTG this month).

Still, this wasn’t meant to be a balance patch, it’s just part of the Living Story.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

I don’t think that everybody else is “bad” though, I find that most people either play the ranger as an isolated class, or view patches as an isolated incident. The shortbow, for instance. I know I’ll get crucified for it, but the shortbow was a necessary change. It was too good at both power and condition damage, and even though the obvious design was a skirmishing, constantly moving around, controlling the opponent weapon; people were using it as an autoattack spam easy win “111111” weapon at 1200 range. That change was to put the shortbow into the role it was designed for without decreasing it’s effectiveness within that design, yet people are writing hate responses and cursing the devs and telling them the devs don’t know their own game, and basically crying instead of learning.

I, unfortunately, didn’t see it as necessary. They outright stated that their reason for the nerf was to force LB use. That is bad design. Yes, the SB auto-attack was spammed. That is because the SB is still more powerful than the LB, even though the LB is supposed to be the power weapon. That was more a failing of the LB than anything else.

The biggest problem with the nerf isn’t needing to switch weapons from SB to LB. It’s twofold. One, if you ever need 900+ range in combat, you are forced to carry the LB into battle. Period. So builds are limited by that. Two, if you are a condition ranger then you have no viable 900+ range weapon as the LB is power, not condition. I still run rampager stats and I take a noticable DPS loss at max range due to my condition stat being nigh-useless when I wield the LB.

Easy solution: Give us a trait (or two) to raise SB range back up again and raise LB power a bit more. Make it so we want to use LB over SB for power builds. And make it so condition rangers are viable at 900+ range.

Oh, I’m definitely not saying that it was the only way to handle it. But look at the design of the skills is all; flanking for max damage, point blank for max effectiveness, evade+kiting, cripple+pressure, and interrupt with better effects when flanking.

Everything about the weapon suggests that it’s purpose wasn’t to sit at 1200 range and spam 1 at people. Maybe the devs didn’t design the other weapons well enough, or maybe they don’t want rangers using conditions at long range, but either way, the change was to force the weapon to have to be used as intended. Down the line from now, with a different change, they could implement something where everybody all of a sudden goes “oh man, I get why they did that now.”

All I’m saying is that for everybody who wants the game “fixed,” thinking that it was okay for the shortbow to be the go to weapon for everything (and that fact that it was kind of true) isn’t balanced, and isn’t good design, and needed to be limited within its design so that it doesn’t overshadow weapons. Also, the data analysis after the patch is going to be an extreme measurement of how much the ranger community doesn’t like the longbow when even after the patch people still won’t use it. That right there is going to immediately start a flow of improvements to the longbow down the pipeline, which is ultimately what most power build users wanted (until they got used to the prepatch shortbow).

That being said though, the next patch really does need to take a ranger/warrior/engineer focus (from a pvp perspective anyhow).

@Spectre;

I actually preemptively though of a response to Splinter Shot being OP, and so I figured that the way it would function, it would only “splinter” when it hits its final target. Kind of makes sense too that while the arrow is piercing, the momentum is keeping the arrow intact, but as soon as it stops, it shatters and hits surrounding targets.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m not yet sure what my ideal pet suggestion would be. Right now I’m just content looking at other suggestions and trying to keep people from getting too negative. That and trying to keep people from overhyping the class past what it actually is

I definitely understand that, but there really are times when there is only so nice I can be lol. As far as consistently active forum posters, I believe that there are only maybe 10-15 total that I have memorably come across that I feel understand the class, how to play the class, and where the class is lacking, without over-dramatizing it.

I don’t think that everybody else is “bad” though, I find that most people either play the ranger as an isolated class, or view patches as an isolated incident. The shortbow, for instance. I know I’ll get crucified for it, but the shortbow was a necessary change. It was too good at both power and condition damage, and even though the obvious design was a skirmishing, constantly moving around, controlling the opponent weapon; people were using it as an autoattack spam easy win “111111” weapon at 1200 range. That change was to put the shortbow into the role it was designed for without decreasing it’s effectiveness within that design, yet people are writing hate responses and cursing the devs and telling them the devs don’t know their own game, and basically crying instead of learning.

I would like to think that less of the playerbase approached the game with such a casual (unwilling to understand or improve beyond what they want out of the game, yet more than willing to cry over and over when something changes the way they play) attitude, but the forums unfortunately remind me all the time that there really are people who just don’t understand what they are playing and how the game works (there are STILL people who think Rapid Fire is doing 40k+ damage).

But, positivity positivity positivity lol.

stof.9341:

Vitality isn’t valid as condition resistance because it’s an equal opportunity stat that protects as well against condition than against power damage.

And stacking toughness makes you sacrifice stats somewhere else, so even if it isn’t necessarily equal opportunity, there is opportunity cost, because you could be sacrificing damage for survival.
Which, in the PvP arena, the damage stats, when 2 are on an amulet (excluding celestial) are all paired with vitality, and not toughness, meaning that the obvious intention is to either choose damage or survival.

Again, in a general sense, Vitality buffers the effects of condition damage, so if condition damage is truly broken, introducing another passive stat isn’t a fix (or it is, but it is a much more complex fix than just adding more cleanses, or even adjusting the numbers for condition damage output if it’s that bad, which imo it isn’t bad enough to warrant that except maybe Terror).