Guild Wars 2

Conditions being a problem is a premise in your suggestion, but I feel that needs to be verified.

We have two damage types in the game, similar in many ways (blockable, dodgeable, protection via traits, skills and consumables), but I would still say more than 50% of the damage flying around stems from direct damage and not conditions.

I run with several classes, but my condi necro is the only one running without passive condi protection (since they can manipulate conditions actively) which means I’m acutely aware of the conditions I receive, and I use my active condi protection in way less than 50% of the fights.

True… when I need active condi protection, I need it dearly, but it’s still in way less than 50% of the fights.

I for one, don’t think 1v1 balance in WvW is a big deal. If you ask me, WvW is not (first and foremost) a 1v1 arena and I like the uncertainty when roaming.

Now… if I read other posts in this sub-forum correctly, I guess many of you disagree with me. I’m fine with that, but I do feel it makes the dialogue harder if we don’t share basic ideas about “balance”, or at least know how other players think about it.

The feature pack is about to hit, I guess we’ll see a lot of posts regarding “balance”, and I’m interested in your views. No details, not WvW specifically, but rough ideas about the game mode(s) you know best — like how I started this post.

Tia

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Good to know, and also very true. I suppose I’m a bit too concerned with what others think in a place where people fight to kill not for respect.

…but there is a lot of respect going on in WvW, it just not synchronized. I abide to my rules, you to yours and I’m fine with that.

Personally I don’t fight in JP:s but that’s me. I can also share some respect with enemy roamers in the knowledge that I don’t know what’s behind the next bend. That’s part of the charm and part of the reason why balanced 1v1 is “irrelevant” in WvW (and I say that while tipping my hat to oZii). Solo roaming is not chess.

ArchonWing.9480:

It’s pretty amusing since for some reason, because if you listen to enough people, necros aren’t allowed to kill people or something. If you do, it’s because you’re cheating.

I’ve started to grow tired of the “condition meta/op” rants. Let me first state I run both as condition and power necro, as well as other classes.

1) WvW is not, first and foremost, a 1v1 arena, and I seriously doubt 1v1 balance in WvW is high on the game designers’ priority list.

2) Conditions are strong in small fights, but that’s about it.

3) Of all the damage I receive in WvW, I don’t think half of it stems from conditions.

Now… I’ve had thieves surprising me out of nowhere, landing some devastating combinations and I’ve dueled thieves who knew how to counter necro:s. They get my respect and if we party up, it’s always on friendly terms.

I’ve also fought brash thieves with predictable movement, announcing their presence, happily walking in my marks/wells and trying to out-tank me. If I party up with them I know I’ll be called cheesy.

Who would you listen to?

I can tell similar tales about other encounters, but you get my drift. I don’t think I’ve ever been called cheesy by a seasoned roamer.

Edit: gramma

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Anyway, 3 times in one day… I’ve had people party me saying “conditions are OP.” I understand that they deal high damage but, should I roll a different spec to avoid being a “cheese build”? Or should I just keep doing what I’m doing | : ?

I just ask because I really don’t like to have the upper hand in fights.. I’m a duelist. I like to /bow and have casual fights if I’m given the opportunity to do so. I want to be on as even a footing with my opponent as possible even if “fair” isn’t exactly WvW’s purpose.

If you win a lot and want it to be more “fair”, I suggest you weaken your build until you win 50% =) The question is… do you want fair fights with PvE tourists or seasoned PvP players venturing into WvW?

Yes… conditions are strong in 1v1, especially if they try to out-tank you (a l2p issue), but WvW is so much more, conditions are not as strong in other scenarios, and winning 1v1 will not win the matchup. I wouldn’t say OP or cheesy, but situational.

I really like solo roaming in all its aspects. Builds being one, situation awareness, knowing/using terrain, assessment, adaptability etc, and I don’t run into fights I know I will loose (unless I can avoid it).

Why then should it be OK for other players to run into fights they’ll loose, and then say you have a cheesy build? What’s their responsibility? It has happened to me more than once — both with and without Dhuumfire.

Personally I don’t think in terms of OP, but maybe builds encouraging trolls, and no… I wouldn’t say condition builds in general, or Dhuumfire builds, are typical troll builds.

Edit: In addition to troll builds, I also think in terms of builds being popular to the degree it changes the outcome of matchups, and no I wouldn’t say that applies to Dhuumfire builds.

jpersson.7368:

Edit… tl;dr: Recommending Soldier’s make people scream, while recommending Knight’s/Cavalier’s seems OK. I can see a difference in “damage distribution”, but not a significant difference in average damage. What do I miss?

I think I got it… I forgot to account for the weapon prefixes. My bad.

Edit… tl;dr: Recommending Soldier’s make people scream, while recommending Knight’s/Cavalier’s seems OK. I can see a difference in “damage distribution”, but not a significant difference in average damage. What do I miss?

A bit off topic but can someone help me with the math.

I’m used to conditions, and I’ve started to look at the math behind power builds recently and came up with the following to get a ”damage index” to compare gear.

Power * CritChance * (1.5 + CritDamage) + Power * (1 – CritChance)

I usually run with a build based on 20/20/0/0/20 (and experiment with the last 10), and I can’t see an earth shattering difference when mixing Knight’s, Cavalier’s and Soldier’s. Not in theory nor in practice. Especially not after adding bonuses like Maintenance Oil. What I do see is a difference in ”damage distribution” (which isn’t strange).

Now… my findings doesn’t match most of your comments and I seriously guess I’m doing something very wrong since I’m new to power builds. Can someone shed some light on the issue?

It’s a different story if I mix pure offensive gear like Berserker’s or Assassin’s, but that’s not what I’m asking about. The OP uses his armor for roaming, and maybe some pure offensive gear is more relevant to him. I use my power build in small guild runs, and I feel I need some sustain in those situations.

Let me first stress I’m not specifically talking about the OP, but if anything, I feel PvE could have done a better job at teaching players about conditions. If anything is skewed it’s the DPS meta in PvE where you can ignore conditions completely. Compared to PvE, I would say DPS and conditions are better balanced in WvW and PvP.

I don’t say they are balanced in 1v1 situations, and I don’t say 1 build works everywhere (as in PvE). What I do say is that DPS and conditions fill different purposes, and we should play accordingly. No-one think it’s strange melee and ranged weapons fill different purposes.

Druss.6917:

Can’t believe no one has posted about the upcoming grandmaster trait yet. Thoughts?

It comes down what the rest of Death Magic will look like, but I feel reworking Death Magic is a good idea. I feel this patch can be revitalizing, but I guess we have to wait and see. It’s not just about the necro changes, but the overall picture.

Muchacho.2390:

Conditions dont work in pve because of the stack limit of conditions, which only matters if you are together with other players that also use conditions. For solo pve condimancer are fine.

“Don’t work” is a bold statement. The cap can be an issue in some scenarios — yes — but I think of it as an intermediate issue and not a beginner issue …but that’s me.

You’ve gotten some good answers already and yes…

Board.9176:

I tend to jump in the fray, head first. And that’ll probably get me killed as an elementalist.

…necro:s have some “tankiness” — just remember we can’t reset fights as easily as most other classes. Then again, I might be a bit skittish from too much WvW solo roaming.

When it comes to your /actual/ questions, I would say start out hybrid and try out different weapons and play styles. People say conditions doesn’t work in PvE but I’ve leveled a pure conditionmancer just fine. It just isn’t suitable for structural damage or dungeon speed runs. Then again, I’m no build fetishist, and I have no problem using “the wrong weapons” for my build just to gain utility. I’ve also found that switching builds will help you tackle different situations.

When it comes to traits I would say 1) we’ve got some strong adept/master traits compared to some of our grand master traits, 2) always check for undocumented cool-downs (google is your friend) and 3) I would say Death Magic is the least useful trait-line unless you are a minionmancer.

LastDay.3524:

It’s bad to the point that people who insist on WvW roaming as a Necro roll Norn for the Snow Leopard form.
Just for mobility.

I roam as a necro and I’m not a norn. I know several other roaming non-Norn necro:s.

Yes…running away as a necro equals death nine times out of ten. The challenge (and the fun) is not to put yourself in situations where you have to run away.

Necro:s have other things going for them, and different classes have different challenges. The lack of mobility, evades, aegis, blocks, gap closers and stability makes for a special play-style and I like it. Maybe some minor changes but that’s just my 2 cents. I would prefer changes to our sustain instead (like Blood Magic).

I didn’t know we had regressed to the you-are-wrong schoolyard. I can play that game as well, but don’t worry. I’ve heard what you had to say, and you heard what I had to say. I never though any of us would convince the other.

Cheers, and good luck beefing up the defense.

Still… you are running an aggressive build with 1(!) condition removal skill (and not a very good one), and complains about conditions being strong. It doesn’t exactly help your case.

You have got plenty of defensive options at your disposal, and we all need to compromise.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So i was thinking, retaliation is kind of used to counter direct long chain attacks but what if we had a new Boon that while active would send the conditions BACK to the person that sent them to you?

You get points for perseverance in your crusade against conditions, and I can understand if WvW is a rough place for you, with Cleansing Wave as your only way of removing conditions. Still.. you do know you have alternatives to this tirade of yours?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/D-D-Elementalist-Mesmamentalist-Build/first#post3709735

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Easier said than done, seeing as how most roamers are Condition builds.I saw tonight – Condition Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Warrior and Thief. Not all together but saw them all during my nights WvW time All roaming. Saw plenty in small groups as well. Pretty much only safe place is Zergs. Due to all the AoE condition removal that goes around.

Yes… there are zerg builds and there are roaming builds, and I think that’s a good thing.

It would be convenient if I could bring my roaming necro to big fights, but I can’t. I was disappointed at first, but I learned to adapt and now I like the challenge.

Sure… WvW is a crazy place, it’s in a constant need of polishing, but I like the basic premise that direct damage and condition damage shine in different settings. I think of it as the difference between melee and ranged weapons.

I could argue that soldier gear is popular with some fractions. It’s a true statement, but it doesn’t give the entire picture.

I’m not much for speculating, but all berserker builds will be hit in all aspects of the game (big surprise), and maybe harder when it comes to roaming. Then again, all builds doesn’t shine everywhere.

If you should come back, is up to you. I’ve started to see a correlation between forum whining and my enjoyment. The more people whine, the more I like it.

I felt WvW was in a better place Q4 last year than earlier. I felt I contributed with my condition builds (both with and without Dhuumfire), and I had fun doing it.

If anything, I feel necromancers lack in build diversity, and I can see a need to review our defensive trait lines.

There’s a lot of discussion about the announced changes, but I treat them as vaporware for now. We don’t have any details yet, and even if we had, we need time to settle in with the change. Ask me again mid March or something =)

Josh Davis.6015:

• High-level overview of planned balance changes

Speaking of high-level overview …how do Anet define “balance”?

I’m personally interested in WvW, chaotic as it is, with casual and hard-core players side by side, but I guess the question is as relevant for Spvp and PvE.

Bhawb.7408:

No, but nerfing Vampiric Master changes nothing, nor does buffing the other 4 siphon-related traits unbalance MMs.

Maybe I blame Vampiric Master for our issues with siphoning? You could be right.

I think we basically share the same goal, and I see this as an iterative process: buffing this, nerfing that. The question is, in what order? Actually — I don’t care in what order, as long as the process starts.

Bhawb.7408:

In general I don’t. Vampiric Master is what makes MM siphoning work.

I understand changing Vampiric Master affects existing builds, but I guess any change would do that.

I was commenting build diversity. Do you feel we have a good build diversity when it comes to siphoning?

Stx.4857:

Don’t be afraid, you are correct.

Afraid is not the right word.

It’s a thin line dedication-prestige, especially on internet forums. This is a good discussion and I don’t want to see it derailed or watered down.

I’m probably going to face the Wrath of the Forum for saying this, but I feel Vampiric Master limits build diversity, and makes siphoning harder to scale. Then again, I feel our defensive trait lines need some work in general.

I’m happy I bumped the thread yesterday, and I intentionally gave my (maybe not so insightful) build to start an itch. It seems it worked, and I learned plenty from it. Thanks. The number of viable builds is awesome.

Anyway… just an update. I continued running 0/30/0/30/10 a couple of hours yesterday, and I felt it worked for me.

I also got separated from my guild, and managed on my own — mostly by evading since I recognize the difference between roam- and zerg-builds.

I finished my run with a 1v1 against a thief. None of us could kill the other, even though I felt it was his main. He had the edge, but I still feel that’s enough solo survivability to me =)

I didn’t want to start yet another Dhuumfire prestige discussion, but I guess it’s my own fault with that reference. My point however, was to substantiate my belief that changes are coming early next year. Some will be good and some will be bad — that’s inevitable.

I feel we need to open up build diversity in regards to our defensive trait lines. I don’t have a silver-bullet for the details, but I’ve seen interesting suggestions scattered in the forum.

HaseKent.1843:

I hope what you have mentioned here is true.

But from the past many many patches, where they nerf necro to the ground, lots of players said the same thing as you before. But in the end, its getting worst for every patch……

I know I can be annoyingly optimistic, even though I’ve had necro:s long enough to experience earlier patches. I guess I never learn. At least I feel they communicate their patches better now-days.

The red posts in https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview-Necromancer/first gave me some hope for future patches, specifically https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview-Necromancer/page/9#post3164718

Balancing a game like GW2 must be insane, there are glitches, ANet most probably have to make business decisions, just finding a strategy /how/ to balance must be a nightmare, and then implement/test it. I can understand if conditions must be partially re-designed to be properly balanced, and if that’s the case I’m not certain we’ll see it until GW3.

However.. I will still continue to play/enjoy my necro.

borrok.9267:

It will if you run into an ele, happened to me while roaming yesterday.

I don’t have many 1v1 against ele:s to begin with, and as a roaming necro I’ve learned to pick my fights.

Besides… Diamond skin is new, ppl want to try it out, but I’ve got a feeling it’s too situational for roaming ele:s in the long run. It’s like me, not running Foot in the Grave because I feel I’ve get more of an advantage being aggressive. Time will tell.

I feel this was a good patch, if I look at the big picture. It’s like they are trying to find a baseline. Sure… my main is a necro, and I feel left out, but they can’t fix everything at the same time.

I honestly believe we’ll have a necro patch early next year (before season 2?, if any) moving us towards the baseline, and that’s the only reason why I’m not pushing my ascended armor.

Diamond skin… I can see this being an issue in PvP, I don’t like passives in general, but I don’t expect it to interrupt my WvW roaming too much. I guess I have to wait and see.

I’m no expert when it comes staff ele:s in WvW, but I’m currently testing a support build with 30 in air for CC, 30 in water for healing, and 10 in Arcana for Blasting Staff. Sorry.. no fireworks from me =)

Knight’s stats, Altruism runes (up for review), and Sigil of Energy.

Ryan.8367:

what other classes got polished besides mesmers who already didn’t need 1on1 build polishes in the first place? please explain

I told you I’m not much into details, but I for one am looking forward to the LB buff to rangers …but that’s beside my point. This is the necro forum, and my comment was related to what’s been written earlier in the thread.

It’s always easy to bash, especially when you take things out of context. That’s not something I’m interested in. Have a good day.

Ryan.8367:

1 bleed off one skill on the most condition spam class in the game next to engineers is your version of ‘leveling the playing field’? Oh geez…

I’ve never been much for details, but yeah, in overall I feel they are leveling the playing field with this patch. Toning down warriors a bit, and polishing some other classes.

I understand if others view this patch differently, and I think that’s a good thing.

I feel they are leveling the playing field with this patch. Sure, I hoped for more specifically for necromancers, but I can understand if they don’t want major changes to one profession when they are trying to level the others.

On the other hand.. I’m running an aggressive wvw build for solo/small party roaming, and I can see this patch hitting other necromancer harder than me.

You have gotten some good answers already. I run both classes and would like to add — as a necro fighting thiefs, it’s all about prediction to me. As a thief fighting necro:s, it’s about dodging and trying to be unpredictable.

If you ask me, unpredictability is thief turf, and you should always strive to fight on your turf.

Not OP, but I feel there’s a potential to abuse stealth for trolling purposes in wvw. The challenge, if you ask me, is to minimize that potential while keeping the stealth mechanics viable for all the respectable thiefs out there.

The playstyle suits me, I like the sound effects, animations and the concept — it’s as easy as that. I also like the evil grin on my face when playing necro.

Conditions weak in PvE? I know people say that, but I don’t agree. I don’t feel weak soloing what you are supposed to be able to solo, and I usually do it with my WvW build. I can mention Ship of Sorrows as an example, I did a proper solo run on my first attempt (in, got chest and out).

I agree conditions take some patience, but that doesn’t necessarily equal “weak” to me.

People say other things about necro, I dis-/agree to some, but that’s off topic. What is important is finding your own way and having fun.

Build: 22881
Error Code: 21:6:3:2205
Server: Gunnar’s Hold

The best thing about Necromancers? The fun and the challenge. I’ve tried other classes supposedly better at this, or that, but they are not as much fun to me. Easy choice.

You’ll find me at mid-range, focusing on conditions and positioning. This worked for me in PvE and lately in WvW, haven’t tried PvP yet.

My view is probably not shared by the majority but I vent it to play the devil’s advocate. I’m actually a reasonably guy =)

Balancing classes is /not/ about 1v1 to me. That’s basically what you are trying to do when comparing classes/builds with a fixed reference as soloing a dungeon.

Different parts of different dungeons are easy/hard for different classes/builds. There’s a party around you and you are supposed to help each other. The same goes for WvW and PvP. This is not strange to me.

Solo PvE is a different story, but you can still ask for help when needed.

What I am frustrated about is the necromancer roller-coaster lately. Change is good, it takes time to adjust but we haven’t been given that time properly.

Murdock asked for videos. I think that was a good call and I expected more response to that request considering the debate.

The main issue for me who enjoy conditionmancers is:

• major changes to a class,
• in a short period of time and
• just before tournaments.

No-one have had the time to adjust. It’s too early to say much more than “my old approach doesn’t work with the new patch”. Necromancers are saying the very same thing — if you bother to read their forum.

Maybe some of the changes didn’t turn out as expected. That happens, it should be corrected and videos would be more helpful in that process than opinions.

Build’n stuff seems good enough to me. I’ve played a bit with most professions and it took a while for me to be a decent necromancer. I’m perhaps a bit bold suggesting, but I guess you’ll get more out of trying different play-styles, maybe looking at fan videos for inspiration than constantly changing build and gear.

Good luck

SnyderHall gave a good answer. It’s hard to give specifics and GW2 generic tips might be too basic for you, what do I know? This works for me:

• Have a good time.

• Use ranged attacks when in doubt.

• Learn to move and position yourself, or any build will fall apart.

…but I actually have two Necromancer specific tips:

• To me — Necromancer is one of the professions with the fighter pilot challenge of taking in a lot of dashboard information. Just try to be observant and learn as you go. This could be due to my play style but I have a feeling it’s profession specific.

• Train your evil grin in front of the computer =)

Good luck!

+1

Gunnar’s Hold
Build: 19878
Error Code: 58:11:5:512

+1

I could play at Gunnar’s Hold fine this morning (CET), but I get the same error if I try now.

Edit: I tried again after L Step:s update — I’m happy now.

I just tried the mission a second time and it worked all the way through. I probably left the ship with an unfulfilled requirement the first time.

I can revive the crew with the ranger skill “Search and Rescue” and “spirit of Nature” — but I do /not/ get the ordinary revive option.

I can also bring Zott to Elli but he did /not/ revive her (see screen shot).

I am stuck and would appreciate if you digged deeper into this.