Guild Wars 2

McWolfy.5924:

This 3 trait line thing is very good. Now you spend all your points for damage, after the xpac you pick 1 for your dmg, 1 for survive and 1 for the greater good. They eliminate a lot of useless things and gives you a little freedom, because you can select more as you esentialy need

I see it being more of spending 2 for damage, then using the 3rd to still get as much more damage as you can along with some support/survivability.

Basically, a whole lot of the 6/6/x/x/x type builds we have now, but with less variation within that.

I think the new system should either keep the ability to partially invest in a line, or allow taking additional lower tier traits in place of higher ones. The easier way to give more options and still maintain balance, would probably be the former. Let us choose how far we go into a specialization line. Perhaps keeping the full investment required for elite specializations, as it does make a little more sense for them.

Reward tracks in this context are not pvp reward tracks. It’s the new pve progression system to unlock skills/specs/traits. Elite Specialization Reward Tracks are just the pve progression to unlock them for pve use.

If you don’t buy HoT, you won’t have access to elite specializations in any game mode.

If you do buy HoT, you will have access to elite spec reward tracks to unlock them in pve, and will have them automatically unlocked in pvp.

These changes will make some aspects of balancing easier, but it will also add some new challenges to it. It ends up being a trade of gaining some new balance options, while sacrificing some current ones.

Removing powerful cross-spec trait combos will be harder now. In the current system, if a combo across multiple lines needs to be broken up, in many cases this can be done by moving 1 or more of the traits to a higher tier. The new system will more likely require that one or more of the traits to be nerfed or moved to different spec. Two options that are more likely to cause collateral damage to other builds. Of course, the number of available cross-spec combos will reduced by only being able to invest in 3 lines.

What the new system does make easier is removing the possibility of combing two powerful traits from the same line. If two traits in a line are found to be too powerful together, the combo is removed if you put them in the same tier. Under the current system, this only works with grandmaster traits.

Overall, the new system should be easier to balance, but it’s not without its own unique challenges.

MiniEquine.6014:

mrstealth.6701:

MiniEquine.6014:

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

Those number don’t seem like they can possibly be right. Right now, each line has 4 more traits, and we have the ability to put adept traits into master/grandmaster slots, and master traits into grandmaster slots. There is also the ability to partially invest into more than 3 lines.

The new system limits each tier of a line to only 3 choices. If I’m figuring that right, it’s only 27 possible combinations within a line. The current system has more than double the trait combinations possible per line using only the adapt and master tiers. Add in the grandmaster slot, which has a 11 options on its own (13 traits, minus the 2 already in chosen in lower tiers), and that single trait line probably has more options than all lines combined under the new system.

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense. Each of the new lines has 27 combinations, yes. Now you have 27 combinations in 3 different lines (27^3 = 3^9). Then, there are still 10 different combinations of any 3 trait lines out of 5. (1 line of 5 is 5 options, 2 lines of 5 is 10 options, 3 lines of 5 is 10 options, 4 lines of 5 is 5 options, 5 lines of 5 is 1 option.)

Trait order does not count in terms of options, so we can ignore that. Now, each line currently has more traits, but adding two additional traits to our pool significantly increases the spread.

Note: The new system will still provide less options in total, this is definitely the case. However, the number of options that it is brought down to is definitely 196,830 different combinations in the new system (10 trait line combinations * 27 trait combinations per line ^ 3 trait lines). This is far from few options, even viable ones.

You are correct about order of traits, but the numbers are still not right. And assuming 6/6/2 falsely reduces the number of options in the current system. We are free to spread points however we wish.

Removing options that are just reorders of the same traits, there are still 418 combinations within a line, if you max it to 6 points. That goes to 462 if you take into consideration investing just 2/4/6 points into a line. And there are even further possibilities by investing 1/3/5 points.

Sorann Peace.9056:

yolo swaggins.2570:

I will gladly pay you 2000 gems Tuesday for BETA access today.

(if you got the reference you get all my +1s)

Also is there any timeframe when anet would do an open beta for stress tests and balancing opinions, possibly a way to introduce the elite specializations. I think doing so would make for a nice surprise, don’t you think?

Is this a reference to that NPC in Stormwind City in WoW that says “I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.”?

No, it’s a reference to the same thing the WoW NPC is referencing. Something much much older than either game…much older than any video game.

MiniEquine.6014:

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

Those number don’t seem like they can possibly be right. Right now, each line has 4 more traits, and we have the ability to put adept traits into master/grandmaster slots, and master traits into grandmaster slots. There is also the ability to partially invest into more than 3 lines.

The new system limits each tier of a line to only 3 choices. If I’m figuring that right, it’s only 27 possible combinations within a line. The current system has more than double the trait combinations possible per line using only the adapt and master tiers. Add in the grandmaster slot, which has a 11 options on its own (13 traits, minus the 2 already in chosen in lower tiers), and that single trait line probably has more options than all lines combined under the new system.

I expect that all mobs will be able to drop them, even if they don’t drop other loot.

I think we’ve seen this with previous special event items.

coglin.1867:

mrstealth.6701:

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

By all means, explain to me if you will, how one does not need to be aware of all the specific changes to declare it restrictive or not?

Particularly since we do not know all of the current iteration of trait changes, we are only aware of a few or at best, some of them.

You can see nearly every trait in detail right now. The only missing details are engineer specifics and certain traits that have variable effects depending on attunement/certain shatter skill etc (some of these only show the effect for a single circumstance).

http://dulfy.net/2015/04/24/gw2-specializations-ama-livestream-notes/

But you don’t need to see any specific traits to realize that there are a lot more restrictions. We are no longer able to use only part of a trait line. If you only want a single adept trait, you’re forced to also pick master and grandmaster traits. You can also no longer choose traits from a lower tier for a slot. Currently, a master trait slot has 10 possible optoins (4 master, and 6 adept). With the new system that slot has only 3 master trait options.

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

Bubi.5237:

Just imagine “some” arenas next to each other in Black Citadel, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 10v10, 20v20, XvX fights going on, players watching them, “betting” on the outcome (anyone wanna have a betting achievement/title for your bet’s win/loss ratio? ), having fun..

+1!

That would be pretty awesome if it’s possible. Something like the arena area the Citadel already has, and set it up so only the participating teams are able to be in the combat zone. Spectators get a clear view, but aren’t able to get close enough to actually do anything.

runeblade.7514:

mrstealth.6701:

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

Then ANet needs to buff Shattered Aegis just so you can consider choosing it.

Symbolic Avenger is just so strong as is, it’s going to be difficult to get the other traits to compare even when you are building for them. I think nerfing Symbolic Avenger might be better. Or perhaps nerfing it, while also buffing Shattered Aegis. But even buffed, Shattered Aegis is still very dependent on your build’s ability to spam aegis, which has a few other dependencies.

runeblade.7514:

I don’t see whats wrong niche traits existing like “Expeditious Spirit,” “Amplified Wrath,” “Perfect Inscriptions,” or “Radiant Retaliation” as long as they have a purpose.

I didn’t mean that those traits existing was wrong. They’re interesting traits, and they can bring about some unique possibilities. But there does need to be some flexibility to where you aren’t forced to choose between a set of niche traits, or have an obvious choice you’re herded into picking.

The Radiance line has the first problem. You’d most likely be better off passing on the grandmaster trait in favor of another line’s adept. But that is no longer an option. If a more generally useful trait is put in the line, then that trait becomes the obvious choice for anyone not running one of the niche builds. This is a better situation, but still more limiting than the current system.

The latter the issue is what Zeal has, but to a more extreme degree. The minor traits (and weapon skills) are pretty much herding you into choosing Symbolic Avenger. Even if you are going for a niche build that could use the other traits, Symbolic Avenger is still the better option.

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

This is something they should have added a long time ago. The interest in it, from both participation and spectating, is obvious.

And this is coming from someone with no interest in it at all. I see the demand in wvw, in guild chat, and from friends. It’s there and it’s obvious.

runeblade.7514:

Which is easier to balance? A trait that competes against 5/9/12 other traits vs. a trait that competes against 2 other traits.

If trait 1 is too strong, ANet doesn’t even have to nerf it. ANet can simply bring the other two traits up to trait 1’s power.

A lot of traits are still going to outclassed no matter how much they get buffed, because they are simply too situation or niche to take over the obviously better option.

Two great examples of this are the guardian’s zeal and radiance grandmaster traits.

Zeal
Expeditious Spirit – Spirit weapons burn foes they strike. Spirit weapon summon and command skills recharge faster.

Shattered Aegis – When an aegis you applied is removed, it damages nearby foes.

Symbolic Avenger – You deal more damage to foes standing in your symbols.

If you’re using Zeal, you’re almost certainly using a weapon that has symbols on it. Most guardian weapons do have one. Symbolic Avenger’s damage boost is the obvious trait choice.

Expeditious Spirit is totally useless to anyone not using on spirit weapons. No matter how much you buff it, it’s still going to be of zero use to anyone not using spirit weapons.

Shattered Aegis fairs a bit better in general usefulness, but how often are you actually applying an aegis for that to trigger? Even if the damage were buffed, you’d need Communal Defenses from the Valor line and a build stacked with blocks in order for it to compare.

Radiance
Amplified Wrath – Burning Damage is increased. Burn enemies whose attacks you block.

Perfect Inscriptions – Gain light aura when activating a signet. Signets recharge faster and have improved passive effects.

Radiant Retaliation – Retaliation damage scales from condition damage instead of power.

This is a pretty bad set of choices. Amplified Wrath is the only general option, and it’s not all that good of one. Even with the changes to burning, are we really expecting condi focused guardians to be a thing? And this is another trait that is less useful unless your build is block heavy. This going to be the obvious choice simply because the other two are completely useless outside of specific builds.

Perfect Inscriptions is another trait that is limited to being useful only with certain utilities. If you’re not using a signet heavy build, this is of no use.

Radiant Retaliation takes the prize for niche trait in this line. This is for those that want to combine heavy use of retal and a condition damage build. This trait isn’t seeing use with the current system, and it’s most likely going to stay that way.

The adept and master tiers of Strength look pretty weak to me.

Greatsword users are going to take Forceful Greatsword, which is a good option (not really a choice, though) for them. Everyone else will just take Great Fortitude. I don’t see Body Blow seeing much use in PvE.

In the adept tier, the most generally useful trait is Restorative Strength. But that won’t be of use if Healing Signet remains as the most used heal skill. Death from Above doesn’t really have a use in PvE, and Physical Training is only an option if you’re actually using physical skills enough to justify it.

Wuselknusel.4082:

And I’ve heard, eventhough it’s not mentioned on Dulfy, that the grenade kit will have its range reduced to 900 and the mortar kit will become the new long range weapon for the engineer

Ouch. I haven’t watched the full stream or read any of the professions forums. That’s a pretty nasty hit to grenades.

atheria.2837:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

It must be really hard to take aim at your own feet, but it looks like they’re going to do it again.

I heartily agree.

I can’t agree with any statement more than this one.

Instead of fixing the myriad of issues that are in the game now, they are going to add a whole new level of problems and broken mechanics.

Agreed.

There are still some pretty awful bugs left over from the March 16 update. And quite a few more that have been around much longer. Those getting fixed seems less likely if they keep implementing even more changes and bugs.

Get the programmers working on the existing problems, instead of pushing out unnecessary changes that add to the backlog of bugs.

It’s likely been made baseline. The only other class with that range is engineer with traited grenades. Dulfy.net’s notes on engi include this, which is somewhat unclear if both the range and extra grenade are being made baseline, or just the extra grenade.

Grenadier trait no longer increase the range of grenade or add more grenades (has been made baseline) It now only increase the radius of the impact and velocity.

I’m assuming it means both, and it seems probable that the ranger’s longbow range trait will be the same way.

I don’t know how anyone can look at the system for allocation and selection of traits, and think it does anything but limit diversity. I’m not referring to the trait mergers, new traits, removed traits, or the fact that there are overall fewer traits. For the most part, the changes to the traits themselves are great. It could use some shifting around between tiers and lines, but I don’t see that many issues nor have I seen many complaints about that aspect.

The problems are the very strict manner in which trait points are allocated (3 lines, all or nothing allocation), and being forced to take a trait from each tier instead of multiples from lower tiers. These two aspects, by their very nature, limit diversity. They are nothing but restrictions that limit the number of possible trait combinations and combinations of traitline/spec use.

BakiSaN.9281:

I’m not sure how can anyone see this as lack of diversity. I mean, anyone who is trying to actually be useful and optimal in this game sees this game has NO diversity right now. Every serious PvE guild has meta builds expected for every class and there are also many PvP guilds that DEMAND that everyone runs meta for their profession. Every warrior I see joining my parties for PvE is either deeps or Phalanx, every ele is staff or d/f, every thief is S/P and D/D, and there are some professions that are completely excluded from a lot of content. I see people kicking rangers just because they’re playing rangers (PvE-wise), I see people kicking mesmers from fractals because they have nothing to offer. This game is everything now but filled with diversity considering builds. Every thief I see in PvP is either S/D or D/P. Every mesmer is either halting strike shatter or traditional, every guard is either bunker or Medi, every warrior is shoutbow. And if you disagree, you’re probably in a lot more of a casual circle of playing. This game has NO diversity right now and changes as huge as we’ve seen on the stream can only bring positive impact on the game. Wow…

That describes a good portion of the playerbase for pretty much any MMO. The people are unwilling, or unable, to think outside of the box provided to them by meta builds and guides. I see meta builds is simply the lowest common denominator, a baseline that is pretty much always accepted, but not necessarily always best.

There is plenty of viability outside of meta builds. There is even variation within the meta builds quite often. And then there is the fact that people have different playstyles. What is optimal for you, might be bad for me. That doesn’t mean that either build is superior, they are just designed for different playstyles. In the end, you’re probably going to be a more effective player if you are building to fit the playstyle you enjoy, instead of trying to force yourself to conform to someone else’s.

Artanis.4963:

mrstealth.6701:

That doesn’t really apply to this. This is about retaining an option we’ve already had for close to 3 years. There is no “bad” option, or even the need to implement a new option. We’re asking for an existing option to be placed somewhere else, instead of being removed completely.

You should be arguing for this change to not happen, then.

Instead of rolling over and begging for gameplay to be controlled from the options menu, where it most assuredly does not belong, explain exactly why the existing behavior is useful and be unyielding in your conviction that this change should not take place.

I think that is where it does belong, Or at least it’s better than having a trait to choose between the two. Perhaps an additional tab similar to traits where we select this and other similar skill behaviors that are no longer traits. But that has little effective difference from sticking it in the options menu.

No matter how it’s done, it needs to an option somewhere outside of traits. Where it actually ends up is a secondary concern.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

I’m very surprised this hasn’t come up more often. Of course, any change to skills and traits comes with the chance of nerfing builds and causing gear to need replaced. But these are some sweeping changes across more than just the traits themselves that are going to affect a larger number of players.

I know I’m most likely going to need to replace some lost vitality from the 4th traitline. Having the stats on gear increased doesn’t compensate for that when we’re using little/no vitality gear. The base stat is only going up by around 75, so someone with 6 points into their 4th/vit traitline and no vit gear will lose 2250 HP.

The hardest hit stats will be condition damage and healing power, unless they raise their (currently 0) base stat by a significant amount. I have at least one build where the 300 condi damage from a traitline is a huge portion of the build’s overall condi damage stat. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2. I doubt that the condi damage stat on my gear will be boosted enough to make up for that loss.

The funny thing is that 3 years ago I was arguing against having stats in trait lines. It would have been a great idea to uncouple them at that time. But now, it’s too late for changes like that. Coupled stats and traitlines do somewhat push us down certain paths, but we have already embraced the idea, integrated it into our builds, and built our gear around it.

Relshdan.6854:

mrstealth.6701:

Relshdan.6854:

but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

That’s the inherent problem with the new system. No matter where it is, you’re forced to take the entire line whether you want it or not..

that’s only a problem if they fail at populating the lines with worthy/diverse traits in each tier. right now, i don’t think most lines are where they need to be (but some are)….but they potentially can be. the flaw is not in the system, its in some of the traits and their organization.

Is that even a feasible goal, though? To ensure that a wide variety of builds will have viable options in two tiers to match the third tier’s more vital trait. With only 3 traits in each tier and a very restrictive system, that could be very difficult to do while maintaining diversity.

Trying to ensure viable pairing across the 3 trait tiers seems like it could easily lead to sets of 3 traits that are always used together. If you pick the first trait in the adept tier, you need to pick the first traits in the master and grandmaster tiers to match it. That wouldn’t allow for much diversity at all.

Kichwas.7152:

Now, skill points have been in WvWvW all this time. So most of us, when converted, will have already unlocked more than 260 points… so even if the WvWvW skill tests go away, that’s only going to effect your next upcoming character… not the ones you already have.

There are only 13 skillpoints across all 4 wvw maps. And the only skillpoints being converted into hero challenge points are the ones from existing skillpoints challenges and from actual leveling. Skillpoints gain from experience after level 80 are being converted into a new currency to purchase mystic forge materials (the same ones skillpoints currently buy).

A character that currently has everything unlocked from playing only in wvw will not have enough hero challenge points to regain all of their unlocks. They only way to avoid this would be some method of grandfathering existing characters to retain their earned unlocks.

Relshdan.6854:

but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

That’s the inherent problem with the new system. No matter where it is, you’re forced to take the entire line whether you want it or not.

You’re down to picking your third spec. The only desired traits are at the adept tiers of two different lines. You have no choice but to pick just one of the two, then select two traits from the remaining tiers that you have no use for.

I can look through the new traits and see a good bit of that situation.

lordkrall.7241:

mrstealth.6701:

Any amount is too much when you’re talking about having to re-earn something we’ve already put in the time/money/effort for once before.

But you won’t have unlocked everything in the lines before. Simply because not everything in the lines existed before.

It’s the same situation as with previous trait mergers and replacements. If traits you have are merged into a single trait, it makes sense that you should have that single trait unlocked. The same goes for a trait that was removed in favor of a different one in its place.

Then you have the fact that characters with hero points via world completion/skill challenge will be able to unlock them with no additional effort. Does their completing a skill challenge count for future credit, but my skillpoints from leveling and gold spent to unlock a trait doesn’t count?

An unlock earned, is an unlock earned, no matter how it was done. It’s not right to say that only method A counts now, and that players using method B now need to go back and do method A.

Relshdan.6854:

it seems to me the GM traits are now determining the general playstyle/ build type, and the adepts and majors are there for flavor. seems okay to me.

I see a lot of GM traits that look more like minor buffs and flavor to things that are just part of our builds and skills anyway. Other that are obvious must haves. And some that are simply a decision between lesser evils you are forced to chose from to get something more valuable earlier in the line.

Kichwas.7152:

You can probably complete 60 of them in a single 2 hour session, with most of that time spent in loading screens between zones…

60 might sound like a lot, but its really not.

Any amount is too much when you’re talking about having to re-earn something we’ve already put in the time/money/effort for once before.

Relshdan.6854:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I believe they’ve gone this route with the traits so it would be easier for them to balance PVP. With less overall build options in the game there is less they need to worry about balance wise. I honestly do not think any of this has to do with increasing “diversity” because that has ALWAYS been there. All that about diversity was just lip service.

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

agree….but players will ALWAYS devise optimal builds….no trait system will change that. therewill always be pressure to run those builds.

if streamlining to make balance an easier task, means we get more frequent balance iteration….even better, and well worth the loss of being able to make quirky/crappy builds.

Maybe we should just limit it down to picking 3 options for our builds. Pre-determined, unalterable builds for power, condi, and tanky/support. One click and your traits are set. Quick and simple to balance. Just slap in some of the current meta builds, and call it good.

Looking at some of new traitlines, we’re not all that far from this. There are quite a few obvious only-choice traits for a build type. As someone above pointed out, hammer (and GS to a slightly lesser degree) guardians are all but forced into the zeal tree. Are we really going to ignore 25-30% more damage in a power/damage build?

If we really do have to go back and re-unlock things, they might as well go back on their word and raise the level cap. It’s effectively the same thing. Resetting our characters back to being less than max, and requiring us to bring them back up again.

Windsagio.1340:

the 1 and 2 point takes were always super-boring but quite powerful anyways.

They weren’t things that defined a build, they were things that enhanced the power of any build.

They were boosts, but not meaningful.

And being forced to choose between 3 grandmaster traits that offer nothing to the desired build/playstyle, just to get that 2 point take, is somehow more meaningful?

In order to use One-Handed Strength on my guardian, I’m forced to choose between two grandmaster traits for condition damage builds (condi…on a guardian…round 723 of trying to push that idea) and one that boosts signets. Being forced to pick the one that sucks the least is not meaningful.

It would be nice to put 2 or 4 into that line. But no, I have to meaningfully waste more points on traits that I have no use for. Why can’t I put another master or adept trait in the grandmaster slot? At least that slot would be doing something useful then.

lordkrall.7241:

Yes, there might be some cases that feel the need to have every single possible build on the very same character, but usually people bring different characters for different purposes. It is also rather unusual that the same character would spec BOTH for power and condition, simply because of the fact that most classes are only really viable in one of the two.

Warrior, ranger, engineer, mesmer, necro, and thief all pull of both quite well. And even my guardian that doesn’t do conditions very well, does use several different builds for different purposes in wvw.

Going back 3 years, Anet told us that we could ignore pve and develop our characters in wvw. Why change that now? What is gained from restricting how we are able to progress our characters?

Curunen.8729:

With these changes, who knows where the state of the game will end up, but potentially with each trait having a more meaningful impact there will be more reason to branch out.

More reason maybe, but less ability to actually do that because we’re limited to 3 out of 5 (soon to be 6) lines. We could have expanded diversity if they do the trait changes/merges, but keep the current system of spending trait points and selecting traits.

It’s like giving you a cybernetic super right hand, but chopping off your left hand in the process. Sure, you’ve got an awesome and improved right hand, but you’re limited in what you can do without your left hand.

Not grandfathering is going to be a very effective way of making a lot of people mad.

“Hey, we know you spent a lot of time and gold earning all of those unlocks…but we’ve decided that all of your effort doesn’t matter anymore. You can only have your traits and skills back if you earn them all over again. Oh, and you have to earn them the way we want you to.”

I seriously hope that is not the message we’re going to get.

I’m aware of how masteries work. And it really doesn’t have anything do with hero challenges. It’s a completely separate mechanic. It is somewhat replacing earning a skillpoint beyond 80, but the mechanic of it is entirely different. It’s not even based off of experience, as skillpoints currently are.

[edit]
In fact, it seems likely that the earning of skillpoints will be replaced in another way. Being rewarded Mystic Forge crafting mats upon leveling beyond 80.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge. Items and activities that were previously repeatable sources of skill points will now also provide that same crafting material.

Our main " activity that is a repeatable source of skill points" is leveling beyond 80.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Right now the number of skill points to can get is unlimited. After the update for this, it will be limited to a finite number. After you get that number you are not going to get more by leveling. From what they said, you will get them by leveling up to 80 then get the remainder allowed by doing the set, available number of Hero Challenges. Exceeding this finite number can conceivably cause a bug.

That would be a pretty big oversight, and even if it were true we’re talking about something that would likely just be a display bug.

If they can count skillpoints separately based on how they were obtained, doing the same thing with hero points should be trivial. Hero challenges are just renamed skillpoints, after all.

It’s also logical to assume the number of hero challenges available is designed to increase over time. As more areas with new challenges are added, and the number of challenges required rises with new specializations, traits, and skills. Having it hard locked at a certain number, that will somehow break the game if exceeded, just doesn’t make any sense.

I don’t see it causing a bug. Right now we can have a massive amount of skillpoints beyond the number of skill challenges available.

It would only be a problem if the number of hero points were married to the number of completed hero challanges. And that is not the case, because leveling also contributes to hero points. The number of possible hero points already exceeds the number of hero challenges.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe the number 465 isn’t right, it’s a number that I’ve seen several times, but that the number of hero points being finite is correct and so is the possible problems with a char getting more than the game allows.

It’s one of the reasons skill point scrolls are being removed, so we can’t get any extra skill points/hero points.

It’s more accurate to say that skillpoints are being separated. Those earned by leveling and skill challenges become hero challenge points. Those earned via scrolls and “leveling” beyond 80 are being converted into a different currency to buy items that currently cost skillpoints.

465 is just the amount it takes to get all core unlocks. The information provided suggests that there will be more available hero points than needed to fully unlock everything.

A single character who’s done a fair amount of the hero challenges should be able to unlock all of the core specializations, skills, and traits.

If a “fair amount” gets you all core unlocks, and HoT 1 includes specialization and a small selection of skills, I don’t expect a full unlock to be much higher.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Hmm..maybe that is why Skill Challenges have been removed from the maps. Perhaps, there will no longer be an over-abundance of what will become Hero Challenges.

Time will tell. /shrug

Have they said anything about removing some of them? Skill challenges are going to become Hero Challenges.

Hero Points will be limited, and they’ll be earned strictly through what are currently called skill challenges (these will become known as hero challenges) and leveling up.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The problem is with the finite (465) number of points each char can get to unlock skills and traits. If they give a char extra unlocked traits and then the char goes out and does all the Hero Challenges it doesn’t have, what happens to the finite number of points? That char will have extra. Maybe it won’t be a big deal, and maybe it will cause that char to be bugged so, idk, maybe the traits are stuck and don’t unlock properly. Or that char is bugged in some other manner. If they don’t have an easy way to remove excess hero points, that char might not be fixable or it may take a long time for them to fix the bug.

There are far more than 465 hero points available. That is just the amount it takes to unlock core skills and specs.

Getting to level 80 gets you 400, and there are currently 189 pve skill challenges(not including wvw, and Dry Top/Silverwastes). That’s over 600 possible Hero Points in the existing content.

Everyone is capable of obtaining a significant excess of hero points.

Artanis.4963:

phys.7689:

many people who want to be fast dont click on skills. the idea is moving your mouse to a specified position takes more time than just pressing a button.

Yup. I was being facetious. My intent was to have a link to “Lets make it an option!”, when I accidentally submitted the post while tracking down the article.

To all you people advocating for “options”, please stop asking Arena Net to make bad software!

That doesn’t really apply to this. This is about retaining an option we’ve already had for close to 3 years. There is no “bad” option, or even the need to implement a new option. We’re asking for an existing option to be placed somewhere else, instead of being removed completely.

Curunen.8729:

Windsagio.1340:

You see what you want to see.

First reply = best reply.

I can see a lot of potential – and more useful diversity than at present. Depending how things are tweaked and finalised it could be fantastic.

Or we could have all of the good changes, and the current flexibility if we could still partially invest in a traitline/spec and continue being able to sacrifice a major trait for a second adept.

lordkrall.7241:

But it would still leave them with an overflow of HPs, seeing as you would need much less HP to unlock the traits/skills compared to a new character. You would still be able to get just as many HPs from skill challenges, but you would need less of them, since everything would basically only be unlocked.

And that still doesn’t address the fact with combined and/or removed traits.

It’s the same thing that happened with the previous trait overhaul. Existing characters, even if they had few skillpoints/completion, where grandfathered into having full unlocks.

It’s a trade off of giving some younger characters a partial free ride to prevent others from being stripped of unlocks they have already earned.

And I don’t really see combined traits as a major issue. If anything, you’d have put in more effort to unlock those 2-3 traits that are now a single trait. You aren’t really losing anything outside of the few traits that are totally removed. It seems pretty minor in comparison to losing a significant amount of unlocks with the HP system.

They would only have to grandfather in the actual unlocks, not giving extra HP. Just give full unlock of core specs/skills, and leave the character with however many HP they would have if they had spent them on unlocks. That being 0 HP for characters that had little map completion.

For example, if I am level 80 with 100 skill challenges done, the update could leave me with full core unlocks and 35 HP to spend on future skills/specs.

lordkrall.7241:

You will have 400 HPs at lvl 80. You will need 465 HPs to unlock everything currently available (except for those things that are removed). That means that if you have completed 65 skill challenges (which is rather few) you will have enough HPs to unlock everything you currently have.

This still leaves the fact that earned unlocks (gold, time, etc) would be thrown away if they don’t grandfather in existing chars.

Myself, and many others, have leveled characters entirely in wvw, where there are very few skill challenges. These unlocks were still earned, just through other means.

Nike.2631:

Crystal ball says “Dang unlikely.”

We saw grandfathering of all unlocked abilities to characters who were made before the changes last time they re-wrote the trait system from the ground up. Likely the same courtesy will be extended again.

It’s not like this is the first time this has happened in GW2.

This is what I’m hoping for. It seems like the logical thing for them to do, it’s just that the wording there points in the other direction and leaves that question. If I recall, they did clarify the grandfathering along with the announcement of the previous changes.

Good chance that not clarifying is just an oversight, but I hope they make the clarification sometime soon.

lordkrall.7241

Your existing lvl 80s with full map completion will have more than enough HPs to unlock everything.

The characters I’m concerned about are the ones that don’t have map completion, but do already have everything unlocked. Those unlocks were still earned, and it would be pretty crappy if they did take them away.

I completely agree.

It’s nice to have that option without spending a trait on it. But it needs to be just that, an option.

If I’m reading the changes correctly, existing level 80s that have everything unlocked but don’t have a lot of map completion/skill challenges done will have to work to re-unlock all of that. Is this correct, or am I misreading something?

Hero Points will be limited, and they’ll be earned strictly through what are currently called skill challenges (these will become known as hero challenges) and leveling up. A level 80 character that’s done none of the hero challenges should be able to unlock more than enough skills, specializations, and traits to make several unique full builds. A single character who’s done a fair amount of the hero challenges should be able to unlock all of the core specializations, skills, and traits.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge.

I can understand enforcing this on new characters, but are they actually going to take away what our existing characters have already had for ages?

Well, after looking through the actual changes from yesterday’s stream, I can say that I still have the same issues and concerns. It’s a mixed bag for the builds I use, some not being effected much, but others being hit fairly bad with poor options for replacement.

It’s the same two problems I saw from the start. Being forced into terrible options in high tier traits, just to get desire low tier ones. And not being able to offset that at all by putting lower tier traits into a slot.

And some of the new/reworked traits seem outright bad, highly situational, or completely out of place in their line. Which is basically what we have right now, only with unnecessary restrictions forcing us into unwanted traits. This isn’t an improvement. It’s dumbing down, oversimplifying, and limiting choice/diversity.

There are some good trait changes in there, though. Some are probably overpowered by quite a bit. Especially some of the merges of several traits into one. But the overall changes turn these into mere consolations for what has been lost.

There are even a couple traits that are designed in a way that will punish quick reflexes. Thief and ranger both have a trait(a rework of Feline Grace for thief) that gives vigor on “successful evade”. It’s entirely possible, and pretty common, to “evade” attacks without actually getting an “evade”. It’s incredibly easy to do this with a lot of melee attacks, because you react to their wind-up and dodge out of the way before the actual contact. It’s a quick reflex reaction, that is now being punished in favor of rewarding sluggishness.

Intentionally holding off the dodge to get a recognized “evade” is just not a good idea, and fairly unreasonable. That would require knowing every attack animation to a ridiculous degree. And would prove to be very risky due to server lag and the unpredictability of the starting point of the evade frames of a dodge.