Guild Wars 2

ilMasa.2546:

Question:

Gw2core included in HoT to lower paywall for new players,but if a veteran has to buy an extra slot to play the new class…well isnt this a paywall for the Veteran? o.O

Yep, and that is just another point that many of us are not happy about.

Anet would have been better off to just give us that slot, the free core game, or some other consolation for existing players. Instead, they chose to be greedy and rip off every existing customer, which is going to get them fewer sales. And fewer sales means fewer gemstore customers in the future.

MMOGamer.6175:

I will add also that not allowing current players to get a separate key for the base game in the HoT expansion is that Anet would lose sales as players would be selling those keys on the cheap, using them or giving them away for FREE.

Just letting us have that key would have prevented a lot of the mess. I know I’d feel a lot better about it.

It would even somewhat (not completely) make up for what they did to recent customers that bought GW2 after they announced HoT. The dishonesty in the FAQ and previous ownership requirements would still stand, but it does soften the slap to the face.

Arthier.9521:

There are so many haters in Gw2 community, stop complaining, it would have cost the same without the core for free for new players.

Except that would not have cost the same. It’s a value bundle, and you can be sure that Anet’s financial wizards worked hard to calculate a price they could push this bundle at to absorb the cost of the so called “free” core game. It’s the same as every buy 2, get one free deals you see in stores.

And this “deal” is even better for Anet, because not only are they selling the core game bundled to new customers at a discount, but existing customers are paying for it and not even getting it. We’re expected to just hand Anet money that that is 100% profit for them, and get a slap in the face in return.

Anchoku.8142:

Ashen.2907:

Anchoku.8142:

After thinking about the pre-purchase price a few days, I really have only one objection:

Those of us who have regularly purchased gems since release are treated the same as those who only convert gold to gems and never actually purchased gems.

I understand the promotional discount to new players as a temporary thing and I understand the steep price (assuming that price buys two more years of continuous investment by Arenanet).

I purchase gems with real money to support maintenance and development and am disappointed at receiving the same offer as players who do not support the game financially.

Honest question here:

Did you get what you paid for when you bought gems?

Don’t be a fool. Arenanet’s only income is from real money. Various virtual thingies offered on the BLTP for gems are enticements and rewards for spending gems. Players who grind gold are privileged to be able to exchange gold for gems but game gold pays no one’s salary.

Grow up. If gamers treat developers as unpaid volunteers, they will shut it down and leave to find work that pays.

Players who think they are entitled to perpetual improvements, expansions, balances, etc. without continued real costs are not customers Arenanet wants but continues to cater to.

By the way, if more players purchased gems with real money, maybe the HoT release price would have been lower.

The gem exchange rate is based on supply and demand of gems. Players buying gems with gold is the source of that demand, and causes the value of gems to increase. When the value of gems increase, there is more incentive for players to buy gems with cash for the purpose of selling them for ingame gold.

Buying gems with gold might not be directly putting money in Anet’s pocket, but it is doing so indirectly with its effect on the gem exchange rates. Every gem you buy with gold came from someone else’s cash purchase.

Drawing Guy.3701:

2) A full list of what is included in the expansion is needed. Value is subjective and people will buy or balk no matter what you price it at, but it helps to know what we’re attributing that value to. As it stands, I don’t understand why it costs more than $40. Though at least the “deluxe” and “ultimate” are easy to calculate once you know the base game value. They’re not nearly as special or ‘ultimate’ as getting art books, figurines, beautifully made maps, and whatnot, which saddens me.

Even the feature list they’ve already given is not entirely honest. Stronghold and the new WvW borderland are not features HoT gets you, they are features everyone gets. I’m curious about whether the same applies to guild halls. I know that a leader and at least some members will need HoT to go and “claim” the hall. But with it being such a core feature of guilds, it seems likely that every member will be able to access it, whether or not they own HoT.

So what does that leave as exclusive HoT-only content?

The only things we know for sure are elite specs for all classes, 1 new class, and masteries. Beyond that, a vague mention of “challenging group content” with no further details and a completely indeterminate amount of maps/open world content. For all we know, Verdant Brink could be the entirety of HoT’s open world content.

The fact that they aren’t willing to disclose any information relating to the amount of content says a lot to me. Primarily, that they feel it’s not enough for players to feel is worth the price. They would be trying the hype the amount if they felt it was worth it.

Pifil.5193:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-19-guild-wars-2-community-reacts-angrily-to-heart-of-thorns-expansion-pricing

The mainstream press is starting to take notice.

We need to keep this stirred up so more notice it. The E3 announcements are over, and Anet is losing that hype to hide behind. The longer this remains a hot topic, the more it will stand out above the other recent news.

I think Anet was likely banking on E3 covering any news about this. E3 is a place to reveal and hype upcoming games, not a place to put your already announced products to market. Plus Steam’s summer sale is going on, and PC gamers are already funneling money into that. If Anet/NC wanted hype for HoT from E3, they would have went there themselves and been on the show floor. Not some dinky few minute segment on the PC Gaming show.

So keep up the storm, don’t let Anet use E3 to hide their bad PR.

Anet needs to respond to this and they need to do it soon. And after that, they need to start changing their packages to make up for the issues they caused. Adding in some consolation to existing players for not getting the free game will go a long way.

But most importantly, to make up for the most despicable part of this, they need to make up for lying for 6 months and continuing to sell the the core game under false pretenses. I think the only solution that lets them retain any trust would to offer to every player that has bought GW2 since the PAX South announcement an automatic discount on HoT equal to the price they paid for GW2. If someone bought GW2 in March for $40, they should get HoT for $10, without having to request it, and without losing their existing GW2 account.

For those that bought from a source other than Anet’s site, offer a flat discount. Again, doing so automatically. Of course this will give too high a discount to some and too low to others, but it is certainly better than continuing to rip off everyone.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

mrstealth.6701:

They are likely hoping it will blow over, and they can get away with it by appeasing everyone with some forced, half-hearted apology. That might work when it’s a unpopular changes in free updates. Some will quit playing, but most will eventually (even if begrudgingly) accept the changes and go about their way.

But this is something they are asking money for, and have already been lying about for 6 months in a shady scheme to get more money. People aren’t going to just forget about it and hand over money anyway. You don’t forget about a lie the way an unpopular change fades away.

Frankly they have holdouts over the barrel, because by offering the base game for free to new customers they can just develop future playable content for HoT only.

Expect HoT to be required for LS S3. You won’t be able to buy it separately on the gem store either.

That’s one massive crowbar to ‘motivate’ disgruntled players. HoT is a paywall for veteran players.

I do expect any new content for some time to be centered around HoT areas, and require that to play. I don’t really have a problem with that, either. It also makes sense from a story standpoint. The current action is all in Maguuma, so that’s where LS3 needs to be.

But none of that really matters to me, and I think a lot of others share this opinion. I’m not buying HoT because of the absolutely deplorable moves they have made this week. Anet is going to have to do a lot to rectify this situation before I even consider opening my wallet for them.

I would hardly consider LS3 a reasonable incentive to purchase HoT, anyway. And certainly not feeling held over a barrel for it. LS2 was a bunch of rushed, buggy filler with a couple good bits of instanced story. It did nothing but prove Anet is not capable of quality content on 2 week cycles, but can make something good if they have a couple months to work on it. I don’t expect much better from LS3, so they can keep it, and I will keep my money until they can prove they deserve it.

funkyazn.9062:

Random.4691:

Rhonin Greymane.8752:

A simple point people don’t seem to understand is that the core game inclusion isn’t influencing the price in any way… it’s just something they threw in so new players that missed the previous sales aren’t stuck behind a huge paywall. They just got lucky to get the game at a lower price than others(free of charge in this case) the same way people got it for 75% less during the recent sales but nobody raised any pitchforks then even though they should have, according to the logic the complaining follows. The expansion itself costs 50$, you’d be paying that regardless of core game inclusion. Nobody is forcing you to pay extra for something you already have. Think of it as a 100% discount product you don’t have to put in your basket separately.
As for the pricing itself, $40 to $50 is just standard pricing for MMO expansions. And saying there’s not enough content to justify the price isn’t valid because we don’t know how much content there actually is. Which is where the magic of pre-purchasing kicks in… you don’t have to buy it now if you don’t feel you know enough. Pre-purchasing is an optional gesture of faith from the consumers. The game didn’t release yet. Anet isn’t demanding that we pay for the game now and then releasing it in a week or two from now. The game is several months from being ready. In fact, Anet isn’t demanding anything and people are hatemongering for no real reason. The game isn’t going live with just the things that were revealed up until now, and I don’t know why people are acting like it is. There’s still months of reveals ahead of us. Just stop with the pointless, and frankly baseless anger and hatred.

That is what they are telling you and your buying into it. They have people that crunch numbers, that is their job, you can sure as heck bet your butt that they took into account the value of the core game and added it to the price tag. It would be idiotic for them to not do this. It helps them justify the $50 price tag even if they tell you it doesn’t.

Like I have said before, if you buy a meal from McDonalds they may tell you the fries are basically free but in actuality they have taken into consideration the value of each part of that meal, right down to the paper wrap around the straw.

Apparently ignorance IS bliss. Don’t go into the light!

…..now Im craving for some fries >.<

Edit: but going back to Anets continued silence, do they really need to say anything at this point when they have their own army of youtubers running to their rescue? Dance puppets DANCE, muaahahahaha

Those youtubers were already fanboys, and whatever nonsense they’re saying now is just going to rally other fanboys. They’re not going to have any sway over reasonable, intelligent, people that can see this for what it really is.

Anet is going to have to own up to the trainwreck they created, and start taking steps toward fixing it, as well as re-earning the trust of their players.

MMOGamer.6175:

JohnnyS.1460:

Finally some official word from the devs…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZspKoupWAY

I just kittened myself laughing.

I knew someone would end up doing it. That guy is priceless.

Rhonin Greymane.8752:

A simple point people don’t seem to understand is that the core game inclusion isn’t influencing the price in any way… it’s just something they threw in so new players that missed the previous sales aren’t stuck behind a huge paywall.

That’s something we don’t actually know is true.

It’s quite likely product bundling to make the product seem to have a higher value by including other products with it. Using that “value” to justify a higher price than it would otherwise cost on its own.

They can label it as a free gift all they want, but it’s clear by their multiple recent sales that they expected new customers to pay for their GW2 base game. Their word of it being “free” doesn’t mean much right now. This is the same company that had false information posted up on their HoT FAQ for 6 months as part of a marketing ploy to sell more core game copies.

If they wanted to do honest business and bundling, they would have announced 6 months ago that HoT would included a GW2 account. Instead we get a surprise bundle where everyone is asked to shell out more money for, while only a portion of those customers actually get the bundled extra product.

bubalu.8301:

mrstealth.6701:

As for the claim made in the original version of the FAQ, there is no mention made of HoT purchases including GW2. The heavily implied intent of the text is that a previous, separate purchase is required. This where #3 comes in; “has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience”. This establishes that even implied false information in a manner that might deceive is enough to consider the company guilty of false advertisement.

Unless you’re reading the actual statute, the link provided by the person who brought it up does not have any redacted text.

I think you mean #2 which is “the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience” while #3 is “the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience.”

I don’t see the heavily implied text where a previous, separate purchase is required. Granted, I only have experience with a handful mmo expansions, but the ones I have experience with allow a person to buy the base game at the time of the expansion, if you don’t have the base game already.

This situation is no different. Anet has just made it more convenient for those who don’t have the base game already. It’s an incentive for new customers much like how cable companies throw in a couple months free of a premium channel to new customers.

The way it was cut looked like some was cut, but you’re right. It wasn’t. It’s not really an issue, though. As that section does still obviously apply to this case. There is definitely interstate commerce, placing it under federal jurisdiction.

The quote from “3” was 2, uncaught typo on my part. But I did also post the actual quote for clarity.

And I don’t see how anyone doesn;t see that implication in the original FAQ entry.

“Q: Do I have to own Guild Wars 2 to play the expansion? A: Yes. Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is an expansion to Guild Wars 2 and not a stand-alone campaign, and therefore it requires the base game to play.”

They straight up stated that you need the base game. That you cannot use/play HoT unless you own GW2.

Combine that with the fact that very same day that went up, the base game was put on sale for $10, and a special “level up” double XP event started.

The fact that they are promoting the game in a sale, along with the announcement of the expansion, is a pretty clear indication that you’re going to need that base account when HoT is available. That FAQ entry gave no hint at all that the game would later be included in that HoT purchase.

Jade Arkadian.9280:

They should address the issue ASAP and if not. Every single blog entry since the prepurchase is being overshadowed by comments related to this.

What’s the point on telling how cool guild halls are if you have users everywhere leaving comments about the pricing?

It’s everywhere…facebook, twitter, reddit, theses forums, the game itself… and it’’s perfectly normal. People is concerned and wants you to change your mind about that mad pricing tag.
Come on Anet, I know things are not done instantly but you must react before it is too late.

They are likely hoping it will blow over, and they can get away with it by appeasing everyone with some forced, half-hearted apology. That might work when it’s a unpopular changes in free updates. Some will quit playing, but most will eventually (even if begrudgingly) accept the changes and go about their way.

But this is something they are asking money for, and have already been lying about for 6 months in a shady scheme to get more money. People aren’t going to just forget about it and hand over money anyway. You don’t forget about a lie the way an unpopular change fades away.

NecroN.8306:

bubalu.8301:

Alexxander.8306:

Nice try Anet.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/False+Advertising

“Proof Requirement
To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things:

(1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser’s own or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activity; (FAQ said “BUY GW2 NOW!! U NEED IT FOR EXPANSHUN!!”)

(2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (Anyone during the time the FAQ was active)

(3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience;
(Do I even need to explain this one again?)

(4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and
(Not relevant afaik)

(5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement’s potential to injure a customer. [I]The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. [/I] False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

You are going to armchair-lawyer it up with elements of a federal criminal statute? Meaning prosecution is done by the federal government and not individuals. Furthermore, you are also saying that element 4 does not apply when ALL the elements of a statute has to be met to be guilty of said crime? (Seriously, you could have at minimum said that buying the game gives you access to the Anet servers which are located in a different state, and it would thus count as an interstate service.)

But let’s humor you and overlook the fact that the elements are for a federal criminal statute and you basically said the 4th element has not been met. So ignoring your irrelevant editorializing of what you think the faq said and actually quoting the previous version of the faq,

“Q: Do I have to own Guild Wars 2 to play the expansion? A: Yes. Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is an expansion to Guild Wars 2 and not a stand-alone campaign, and therefore it requires the base game to play.”

It looks like the answer is yes, you need to own GW2 to play the expansion. And unless you know something about the HoT code that we do not, it looks like that is true. So therefore, no false statement of fact has been made.

Addressing your editorializing about having to buy the game, there is nothing about having to buy GW2 before HoT. Yes, it says you have to own the game, but you can buy GW2 later or at the same time or have the nice people of Anet give it to you free for buying HoT.

Now, if you still feel like a crime has been committed, you can contact the US attorney general or your state attorney general (because your state probably has some false advertising laws too).

Looks like Anet’s attorney is in da house. All rise the Kangaroo Court is in session.

If you look at #4, it’s pretty clear that there was redacted text. The “not relevant” remark seems to apply to that redacted text. Since it is fairly obvious that all of Anet’s customers do not reside in Oregon, interstate trade laws most definitely do apply.

As for the claim made in the original version of the FAQ, there is no mention made of HoT purchases including GW2. The heavily implied intent of the text is that a previous, separate purchase is required. This where #3 comes in; “has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience”. This establishes that even implied false information in a manner that might deceive is enough to consider the company guilty of false advertisement.

dervix.9126:

mrstealth.6701:

MashMash.1645:

Except, it seems they are not – http://imgur.com/zPywVMI | http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3a95r8/to_those_who_said_anet_will_support_people_who/

It’s confusing because in another reddit thread you have an ANet rep saying they will, as you noted.

Also, as regards HoT, the whole 30 days thing is somewhat sketchy, as ANet have been pushing sales since the xpac was announced, several months back – which is when they stated you needed to first buy the base game. So, if refunds or upgrades are going to be offered, it should be anyone who bought the game after that date, thinking they needed it – but actually didn’t.

I have no words….

In what universe is that considered acceptable to any degree? Not only is it negating any progress and work they’ve done….but it’s essentially stealing any gem purchases they have made.

This surpasses anything that even EA has done.

It’s been stated repeatedly throughout this forum that most likely, this was a fluke copy-pasted response. If you follow up with support, they will probably work with you.

I really hope that is the case. But to even make that statement at all is pathetic.

A copy-pasted response is such for a reason. It’s the offical first-line stance the company has. And the standard solution they intend to implement to customers.

Any better response is something the customer has to “fight for”. Something Anet is likely banking on them not doing.

MashMash.1645:

Except, it seems they are not – http://imgur.com/zPywVMI | http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3a95r8/to_those_who_said_anet_will_support_people_who/

It’s confusing because in another reddit thread you have an ANet rep saying they will, as you noted.

Also, as regards HoT, the whole 30 days thing is somewhat sketchy, as ANet have been pushing sales since the xpac was announced, several months back – which is when they stated you needed to first buy the base game. So, if refunds or upgrades are going to be offered, it should be anyone who bought the game after that date, thinking they needed it – but actually didn’t.

I have no words….

In what universe is that considered acceptable to any degree? Not only is it negating any progress and work they’ve done….but it’s essentially stealing any gem purchases they have made.

This surpasses anything that even EA has done.

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

dervix.9126:

Najten.2418:

I get that the price of the expansion is €44,99, and that the game is included just to avoid the problems you had with for instance a certain other MMO Whose Name Shall Not Be Named which required you to buy core game + 3 expansions to enjoy the 4th expansion…
But how is this fair to those that actually went out and bought GW2 core, in anticipation of HoT? Those that spent €35ish now spent that for “nothing”?
A bundle offer is great, but there should be an “upgrade only” option for those that don’t need the core game.

It was stated that Support would grant HoT to people who recently purchased the game. Probably within like 2 weeks or so, I’m guessing.

The terms are that they get a refund on their current account(only) and receive a blank slate copy of HoT/GW2.

Seriously, that is the offer?

I was guessing they’d just refund the $10-$40 they paid for the core game after they’d applied the HoT upgrade.

ZanchinFissure.7981:

I kind of understand why people are upset about this. It’s like if Fallout 4 came with Fallout 3 and Newvegas. I would feel cheated because I already bought those games and now new players get both for free? Or if Doom 4 came bundled with irrelevant Doom1,2,3. I would want some money back too.

Those kind of deals do happen, but they are often paired with a discount or some other bonus for existing customers. I’ve seen quite a few games on Steam have offers like this. Buy game 2 and get game 1 free, or get x% off of game 2 if you already own game 1. It offers value to both new and old customers, and is good PR move.

I think it’s most common to have the previous games offered at a discount in a separate bundle package, though. Probably because it’s a more simple, straight-forward system.

What Anet has done with HoT just shows complete disrespect for the existing players. It was an absurdly incompetent oversight to not see the PR nightmare this would cause. Even more so for the unbelievable decision to continue selling the core game for 6 months under the premise that a separate purchase was required to play HoT. Then going back-pedaling on that along with a ninja-edit of the HoT FAQ to reflect the new deal.

Davey.7029:

And if you do WvW like me, we will get a new map, and I’m excited for that, but the expansion will do nothing to fix the current problems we have right now (low population issues, coverage issues, unfair matchups).

The new WvW borderland is for everyone, and does not require buying HoT.

I’m not sure about the stronghold pvp map, but I think it’s the same way. It’s not getting a separate pvp queue from the existing pvp maps, so everyone should get it.

AlexanderFalkor.4765:

sigh why do i bother you wont understand or choose not too which ever it is do as you will i care not ill be buying the expansion with or without input that’s all i care about i can give the code the core game to my brother maybe he’ll like the game too and we can play it together

You don’t get a core game code, you get a single code for HoT+ core game. You add that to your existing account, and get nothing but HoT.

miraude.2107:

What am I gonna do with a free copy of a game I already have? I can’t gift it. Everyone I know that plays video games already has it. I probably can’t sell the code because it is tied into the expansion, which is what I want to buy in the first place.

You don’t even get the free game/code. You get a single code that upgrades your current account to have HoT.

If you apply that same code to a new account with no core game, then you get HoT + the core game.

Existing players get nothing but HoT.

AlexanderFalkor.4765:

sigh all this rage for what a slight lie whoop dido have you ever considered that they didnt think of the fact they would do a bundle deal when they posted the FAQ months ago i mean they are only human humans make mistakes no one is perfect

Once you’ve made a claim like that, and used it to sell a product, you’re stuck with it. They should have thought their plans through before decided to make that claim.

When you’re selling a product and taking money from people, you don’t get to “oops, I changed my mind” like a child. That is why there are laws that explicitly prohibit this behavior.

AlexanderFalkor.4765:

yet when this is all over and your rage is done you’ll buy it anyway so what is the point of this again?

I’m most certainly not buying it under the current terms. I’ll reconsider that if the packages offered are changed to include some additional value, more so for existing players that aren’t getting a “free core game” copy. Otherwise, if I purchase HoT it will later, at a reduced price.

AlexanderFalkor.4765:

well whose fault is it the one who believed it or the one who told it? theres a saying i live by a lie self deceived is twice believed

It’s the fault of the company telling it. When it comes to disclosure of cost/products offered/requirements of products, they have a legal obligation to be honest.

This isn’t a case is misinterpretation or vague statements. It was a clearly posted lie that was exploited for financial gains.

AlexanderFalkor.4765:

abuse hahahah that was funny last i checked you were the one whining about a game abuse is not that they can trample over us if they wanted but they dont and the fact they’ve broken no laws business wise or otherwise means they can do as they please

The 6 months of telling us that we needed to buy the core game separately before buying HoT looks a lot like false advertisement, which I do believe there are laws against.

They were using false pretenses to sell copies of the core game. Even going so far as to have special sale discounts marketed as getting ready for HoT.

InfinitytheSoulWarden.5963:

Bellizare.5816:

InfinitytheSoulWarden.5963:

Bellizare.5816:

InfinitytheSoulWarden.5963:

I Think it is funny that they are have yet to even acknowledge our concerns.

poor move on Arena net

the longer they let us stew in our anger the worse it will get…. but they are a company not logical…

This is a tempest in a tea pot compared to what’s brewing for the 6-23 patch.

i really dont think thats true. we have known for a while what is coming 6-23

this is a massive bomb dropped on the community, and numerous issues not being addressed by the company .

I wish I had your optimism.

It is not optimism, its realism.

you are telling me that a few potential balancing issues is going to rip up the community more then the company lying to its consumers and then trying to cover it up by changing information.

you are the optimist for thinking something so trivial would distract from a major breach of trust.

It’s not just balance issues. It’s a new extremely restrictive rework of the entire trait system.

I do agree that the lying/false advertisement are more severe problems. But the upcoming update will have a noticeable impact on every active player. This mess with HoT preorders isn’t hard to overlook if for those with no intention of preordering.

Xeno Mezphy.3145:

mrstealth.6701:

Xeno Mezphy.3145:

SirDrygan.1823:

I think you guys got it all wrong. The USD50 is to get back the money they spend making Drytop and Silverwaste.
So, it would make sense if they charge extra of USD10-20 for those 2 maps. And the 30-40USD is the price of the expansion plus the core.

I thought that’s what mail carriers were for.

Yeah, those were part of the trickle of content paid for by the gemstore. Just like everything we’ll see after HoT’s release, up till the next paid expansion.

I was just being snarky. I don’t have any issue with the gemstore as a concept, unlike many I’ve seen about. I mostly just take issue with Anet devaluing my already inherently valueless time.

I don’t have any issues with the gemstore concept myself. It’s brought us nearly 3 years of content and feature updates.

Xeno Mezphy.3145:

SirDrygan.1823:

I think you guys got it all wrong. The USD50 is to get back the money they spend making Drytop and Silverwaste.
So, it would make sense if they charge extra of USD10-20 for those 2 maps. And the 30-40USD is the price of the expansion plus the core.

I thought that’s what mail carriers were for.

Yeah, those were part of the trickle of content paid for by the gemstore. Just like everything we’ll see after HoT’s release, up till the next paid expansion.

Goraz.3754:

BTW, if someone buys the expansion and Anet are including the original game again, does that mean that someone can give that original game to a friend?

No, you only get 1 code for both products. So once you apply it to your existing account, there is nothing left to give.

Existing players are only actually getting 1 of the 2 products in the bundle.

Sykper.6583:

You can take that illicit high-horse and apply it elsewhere, my pre-purchase is not just a aimless money-sink, its also a sign of my faith in a company to deliver on their promises. I didn’t need to see the rest of the content after the Guild Halls to see $50 as being worth it, and if you have gotten to the point where you have lost faith in GW2 then there will be nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise.

Blind faith is the entire problem with the overall preorder mess in gaming. And it’s becoming more and more common for that blind faith to be completely unwarranted and absurd. With companies repeatedly releasing incomplete and broken games.

It’s really sad to think of just how many people are going to pre order the next Assassin’s Creed game after the absolute trainwreck the last one turned out to be. Yet people will line up and throw their money away like it that never happened. It’s fine to have faith in a company that has always lived up to that trust. But when a company starts to waiver, your blind faith needs to do the same.

And this applies to Anet, too. I don’t see how anyone could have complete faith in HoT’s quality after the train of bugs (many gamebreaking) in just the last few updates. And even worse, the 6 months of complete misrepresentation about the core game being a prerequisite for HoT.

Why would you trust anyone that has been flat out lying to you for 6 months and marketing their product under false pretenses?

crunchyraisin.6054:

$50 is a more than reasonable price for an expansion for a free game with no subscription fee. Most of us with brain stems were expecting something in the ball park of $40 anyway.

$50 being reasonable is very much dependent on the content it adds, which is something they are not sharing for some reason. As for the game having no subscription, there is the gemstore in place of that. Gemstore income is what funds non-expansion pack content updates, so whatever is in this paid release of HoT needs to hold up to the price they are asking. Of course, what amount of content is worth $50 varies from person to person, but the info we’ve been given so far has left a lot of doubt for many of us.

I’d say most would agree that asking $50 for something that seems likely to be much smaller than the size of the core game (which was only $10 higher at release) is not reasonable. If it turns out to be much more equal in terms of content, fine. But the lack of info/hype about it does not leave me with much faith in that happening.

I was expecting a $40 price myself. But I was expecting at least 1 char slot with that. And certainly was not expecting a so called “free” core game copy (that I can’t use) to be “included”.

ReaverKane.7598:

You guys need to realize that riding the hype train is gone. The hype was drowned by 3 months of barely any new content.

And by 3 months of obviously untested updates that have introduced as many (or more) bugs than changes/features. Quite a few of which were game-breaking.

Galen Grey.4709:

Let me put it another way.. what if they sold 2 versions one for $50 that has just the expansion and one that includes the base game that sells for $100 … everyone would be fine with that right?

now consider as an introductory offer they put a 50% discount on the bundle that includes the core game. Is this okey? is this something to feel cheated about? and if yes why? why is it okey to put a 75% discount on something but not a 50% on something else?

Thing is we want HoT thats what we’re paying $50 for, and Veteran or new thats what we’re getting. The core game is there for conviniance. We never cared about what Anet did with the core game before, they could discount it as much as they wanted, why does it have to make a difference when they bundle it with something we want?

That would be the exact same thing the are doing now, just marketed as two different packages. Two products for the same price, with a large disparity in their content. The bundle package would still be a problem if it didn’t give existing players a separate core game key. And in that case, which is the only way it should be sold, everyone would just buy the bundle for the same price and get their free/extra core game.

The store page for HoT explicitly states that it includes the core game. This needs to be for all purchases. Or alternatively, offer an another bonus option to existing players

Mireles Lore.5942:

Wow the entitlement and selfishness on this thread is strong. Think people need a little bit of perspective.

I wouldn’t call it entitlement. It’s expecting exactly what is market.

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)

Yet if I buy this, I don’t get the core game. I do already own a copy of it, but if it’s being offered free to new players, it should also be offered to existing players. Or offer something else to existing players in place of that “free gift”.

I can think of three ways this could have been done without causing any issues
1 – Bundle the core game in a different package for $60
2 – Give existing players gems/gemstore items or upgrades
3 – Give existing players the core game as a separate key

Galen Grey.4709:

its not an entirely different situation, its exactly the same thing. well with 100% discount instead of 75% of course. Lets say this week they do a promotion where everyone can get the game for free and next week they open pre-orders for HoT for $50. Isnt that exactly the same thing both in terms of previous promotion and what they actually did?

What you’re describing here is yet another entirely different situation. If they started giving away the core game free next week, I could get another core game account. I could get 20 core game accounts if I wanted them. With the current bundled package, I get nothing but HoT for $50.

The issue here is the disparity between two different versions of what is marketed and sold as the same package.

Galen Grey.4709:

I get what the complaint is about, my argument is that it may not be a reasonable complaint. companies try to entice new customers all the time. They do discounts, they give free stuff, they give incentives etc.. How is this any different then Anet giving a 75% discount on the game 3 years later? I as a veteran who pre-ordered the game do not get any benefit from that. I cannot say pay $10 to avail myself of that promotion and change it into 3200 because I already own the base game! The promotion is simply not targeted at me, its targeted towards new players. Same thing here, only instead of 75% discount its 100% discount. Like the 75% discount it doesnt benefit me, a veteran player but thats okey, its not targeted at me its targeted towards new players. No one expects Anet to give away free stuff to veteran players when they do a discount or any other incentive to get new players so why should this be any different?

It’s an entirely different situation than the sales on the base game we’ve seen already. When the base game is put on sale, existing players have no reason to buy it. It doesn’t offer anything, unless you want an extra account. New players buying this are just getting the game at a lower price, which is something that happens with any game some time after release.

What we have with the expansion pricing, is something that every existing player has a reason to buy. And every player that does buy it has to get the same bundled deal. But only new players actually get the benefit of the bundled deal. Two groups of people, paying the same price, at the same time, for the same package, but one group only gets to use part of the package. Existing players don’t even get the option to use the extra core game key for an extra account, or to give to a friend.

Had they done this sometime after release as part of a promotion, I think it would have been fine. But to have this from day one, as the only option, and giving your existing playerbase nothing extra while handing out $40 worth of core game free to new players is inviting a well-deserved PR nightmare.

Shadelang.3012:

Lets take a look at what existing players are getting coming with the expansion for free…..Pretty much everything that isn’t directly related to PvE….. (wvw changes. TPvP changes. both are completely 100% free and available to everyone…they didn’t have to be.)

If wvw changes weren’t “free to everyone”, they’d have to split wvw into 2 separate communities/set of servers. That isn’t really a viable option. So that did have to be free.

Geneaux.9547:

It’s because people keep equating whatever “value” the game has with games that aren’t even in the same genre: ie every game that doesn’t require an internet connection. They just don’t say it(probably because they dot understand the meaning of their words). Those games(usually) don’t ask for this level of pricing because they don’t have to continue developing content for it.

What they develop after HoT’s release isn’t directly related to the expansion’s price. As with the core game and it’s added content, new content released after HoT is supported by the gemstore. The $50 they are asking for HoT is for the content included in the expansion. And it needs to have enough new content to justify that price.

This is the same as expansions in subscription-based MMOs. The sub pays for content updates between retail releases, and the cost of expansions is for the content included in said expansions. The only difference with GW2 is that gemstore sales replace the subscription fee.

BrosefStalin.3475:

Something, just as simple as a free character slot or $10-$20 discount to those that already purchased the core game while new players get both for their first purchase, something where as an early supporter I paid the full price already once and am willing to pay $30-$40 on top of that, would more easily solve the current dilemma AND an option like that from the start would have prevented the refund fiasco currently being dealt with. Basic good-faith business rewarding those already supporting you while welcoming new players in with the deal makes the most sense, and gives all sides, creators, new players, and veteran players, the best deals all around.

This is what needs to happen. Give existing players something to compensate for getting less product for the same price. A char slot or two, some gems, or maybe the option to get the core game for a friend or extra alt account.

ham.8209:

Weylin.6478:

Don’t you dare do it, people falling for this gouging ripoff will only justify this kind of nonsense even more in the future.

Look,
The core game is $40
The core game + expansion is $50
If you already own the core game, you still have to pay $50

How is this OK in any way?!

you never played Guild Wars one did you ;/

This never happened with Guild Wars. The closest thing was the “Platinum Edition” that had Prophecies and Eye of the North, but that was still higher price than the EotN upgrade.

All other releases were fully stand-alone games, with the ability to link together under a single account.

[edit]
I don’t even recall if that Platinum Edition was even available at EotN’s release. I think it was a bundled deal added later on.

Neptune.7920:

That’s also illegal in the US. It’s called “tying”

That’s probably true, but the easy way out would be to claim it’s a free gift/add-on.

But no matter what they say or try to claim, this is a really crappy move for existing players.

If they’re only selling this as a game+exp package, there really should be a discount on it for existing players.

I somehow doubt they are viewing this as giving away the core game for free to new customers. So that essentially means we’re all paying for something we don’t need.

Rin.1046:

I agree. Especially when you start thinking of the possibilities. Runes of the Trapper anyone?

I forgot about those…

The last thing we need is a stealth-spamming heavy that already has an abundance of survivability without the stealth.

I think the new virtues sound pretty good. A bit unsure of the longbow with the limited information. But that name, I don’t really find it fitting at all.

The same goes for traps. They would be a more fitting addition to warriors than guardians. Along with the Dragonhunter name.

Nate.3927:

mrstealth.6701:

It would be nice to put 2 or 4 into that line. But no, I have to meaningfully waste more points on traits that I have no use for. Why can’t I put another master or adept trait in the grandmaster slot? At least that slot would be doing something useful then.

what points are you wasting exactly? We get 4 extra points with the new system even if all 4 ends up used for traits you don’t need/want you’re still back where you started. You’re no worse off than before.

Even if the desired build is a 6/6/2 split, and you’re not losing anything, those extra points/traits are still wasted if there are no useful traits gained in your previous 2-point line. It really does not matter that they are added points on top of what we now have. If they are unable to be used as desired, they are wasted.

And if your build is using more than 3 lines right now, you’re losing that build and being forced to fully invest in lines you don’t want.

runeblade.7514:

mrstealth.6701:

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

When you take a massive hammer to potential diversity, you end up taking out a lot of viable options in the process. The question that remains is whether or not they can actually make up for that loss and have some gain on top of it, in a much more strictly limited system.

In my opinion, they are trying too much at once. It’s a massive over reaction. I think it would be best to keep the trait mergers/changes, but hold off on the other restrictions.

Then post what has been stamped out in here

so that ANet knows what will be removed from the game. They can then figure out what can be fixed.

That thread seems to be more about specifics and builds/playstyles that are being completely destroyed, not builds that are “salvageable” or have a “close enough” counterpart in the new system. What I’m saying is that I don’t think salvageable or close enough are good enough.

We can’t expect everything to survive any sort of balance update, but the massive cut in available options is going to big impact on the number of unique working builds.

I have a good number of builds that are mostly going to survive (in their general purpose), but I’m seeing variations reduced down to a single similar build. Where I see variation and choices to be a made in the current system, I see the new system herding me into obvious choices.

I think a lot of the new mesmer grandmaster (and some in other tiers) choices are a great a example of this. There are often clear “decisions” for a shatter, phantasm, and interrupt based builds. Some very blatant, obvious non-choices. Some of these traits do exist now, but the way they are placed in traitlines/tiers gives choice and variation. And there is always the option, currently, to choose to pass on such grandmaster traits in favor or more adept/master choices. This new system removes that in favor of herding each type of build into very narrow options.

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

When you take a massive hammer to potential diversity, you end up taking out a lot of viable options in the process. The question that remains is whether or not they can actually make up for that loss and have some gain on top of it, in a much more strictly limited system.

In my opinion, they are trying too much at once. It’s a massive over reaction. I think it would be best to keep the trait mergers/changes, but hold off on the other restrictions.

Jerus.4350:

Guardians in Dungeons/Fractals almost always want Master of Consecrations making virtues really a must have for that content, now you can’t just slot 2 and call it a day.

This is where I see the problem this causes. I’m not going to gut another line just to get 1 useful trait, and be forced to pick between others that aren’t really bringing anything useful. The only master/grandmaster traits I see myself using are Absolute Resolution and Indomitble Courage, both of which are only going to be situationally useful.

I take WoR when it’s needed, and knocking 1 point off another line (I usually have 1 in Virtues anyway) for MoC when it’s important isn’t a big deal. But changing an entire spec line definitely is. One trait isn’t worth breaking 1/3 of my desired build.

We’re not getting any more diversity when the extra 4 trait points have to go into unwanted traits simply to keep what we have now.

Jerus.4350:

Not really so set in stone.

Look at guard. 60066 is the theorized new meta. With the longer symbol duration in honor it’s a must have, virtues of course for support is a must have for the guard. So we’re going to choose a Damage line (zeal) a damage/support line (honor), and a support line (virtues).

Well of course that’s not going to always apply. But the changes are certainly not going to make everyone automatically start taking more support options than they are now.

As for guardian, I’m not sure what I’ll end up using. I’m going to miss being able to spend a single trait point to get boons on virtue use. And I don’t think I’ll be using the Virtues spec much in pve.

There shouldn’t be any confusion.

Getting into a beta event gives you access to only that beta event.

You only get access to any future betas if you are chosen again for that specific event.

You are neither included nor excluded from being invited any future beta events. But you are only able to join the specific beta event(s) you were invited to.