Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Sw chest farming is good for the economy. Dungeon farming is very bad for the economy.

Unless you know why this is the case you aren’t really qualified to talk about what is good and what is bad for the economy. Maybe take a few more economics classes before trying to tell everyone what is good and what is bad for the game.

item inflation isnt any better than gold inflation in a system where they design item rewards based supply in the economy.

go see halloween 1, or ascended cloth crafting.

at the end of the day you have to grind harder to get the new or special items, thats the same in either case

cranos.5913:

phys.7689:

cranos.5913:

Kodiak.3281:

cranos.5913:

That’s beside the point. If they wanted to keep dungeons viable for daily play and handle inflation they could’ve easily changed/replaced rewards, instead they’re just removing. This has jack kitten to do with inflation and is just aimed at getting rid of dungeons.

They are doing exactly that, though. They are changing/replacing the rewards and moving them elsewhere.

No they’re not. They are JUST moving them, there’s nothing new coming to dungeons instead.

And please, we all know those rewards won’t go to fractals, so that just leaves open world.

i doubt they are even going to move them, they are going to focus on material rewards over gold.

No doubt, but I don’t necessarily mind that. My beef is with that there will be literally no incentitive to do any instanced content on a daily basis. From what I read fractal playtime will be reduced to the 1 worthwhile “island” you need for the daily chest and now dungeons… It just sucks honestly. I was actually looking forward to the xpac for a while.

eh well the economy/item design team end result has always been to suck the fun out of the game, they just are trying to get better at it.
the future seems like progress will be focused on daily limitations

cranos.5913:

Kodiak.3281:

cranos.5913:

That’s beside the point. If they wanted to keep dungeons viable for daily play and handle inflation they could’ve easily changed/replaced rewards, instead they’re just removing. This has jack kitten to do with inflation and is just aimed at getting rid of dungeons.

They are doing exactly that, though. They are changing/replacing the rewards and moving them elsewhere.

No they’re not. They are JUST moving them, there’s nothing new coming to dungeons instead.

And please, we all know those rewards won’t go to fractals, so that just leaves open world.

i doubt they are even going to move them, they are going to focus on material rewards over gold.

Its actually kinda funny.
They started off like
awesome new map rewards! more rewarding gameplay! faster materials gain!

then in the fine print
we will be reducing gold earning activities, and material earning activities.

Essentially the goal of the economy is that players never actually get ahead. Just keep you a hamster on the wheel.

unless you play the tp.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

We’ve known for 2 years that they are moving away from dungeons as content. This is just the next logical step. Dungeons are the #1 source of inflation in GW2. By toning down the rewards there they can keep a much healthier game.

inflation or lack of inflation doesnt equal a well designed game.
thats the flaw in the item design of gw2. Making the game suck, or having poor incentives does not make a better game.

this is why i say nothing good comes of tying anything to the economy reward wise in gw2. Because the goal of the economy in gw2 is that it should be should basically stay the same, and players exist to serve the economy, not vice versa.

Purple Miku.7032:

This is why I never look forward to changes on this game. There are always strings attached.

yep strings attached, or twisted versions of what people wanted

Iris Ng.9845:

phys.7689:

Iris Ng.9845:

Sigfodr.9576:

Iris Ng.9845:

Speaking of SW, the value of each champ bag deteriorates greatly due to the popularity of the farm. When it was firstly introduced, you can make easily 200 g in 3-4 hours by abusing it. As soon as the chest map is organized and more people make trains, the gold income drastically drops to the point of only 10 silver per champ bag. It’s a sign that the economy balances the value and influx of gold by this farm and it’s not as unhealthy as we made it to be. (Actually, I’m quite grateful to the chest farmers for bring down the atrocious price of T6 mats that reigns high at 45-70 silvers a piece for months). With the new map rewards, I speculate this farm is gonna die down as it no longer maintains a high reward/hour ratio. Maybe the Orr farm will come back more strongly than ever with Charged Lodestone and Giant Eyes are in the loot table now. Who knows…

This is not how econemy works sry.
Money (of any kind), and in gw2 that is gold only have a value due to what you can get for said gold.

So, by lovering the gold from dungeons and making more people do SW or other farms that mainly provide materials, then that simply mean that the value of gold will go up compered to what we can buy for said gold (deflation). This is the opposit of what we have mainly been seeing (inflation). Now I am going to assume that Anet have some numbers to support this change and that they simply want to reduse the inflation that we have seen so far, but.. the track record of anet is sadly not giving me a lot of hope.

This is exactly what J.S. mentions in his blog post.

The major concern that we’re sure to face is the specific intent of dungeons as a gold-generating activity. To that effect, let’s talk about map rewards.

Map rewards are specific, tangible rewards you receive from playing on a map. They allow players to balance overpriced items as well as seek specific materials for their personal goals without constant uncertainty. Map rewards are pretty great but are a constant enemy of scarcity. Map-reward materials can no longer be overpriced for any extended period of time because players now have the power to push the supply when needed. This shifts the power from the supplier of a rare good to the buyer, because the buyer now has the option to refrain from buying and still achieve goals, which is what we wanted.

which ignores the concept of people who like earning gold in dungeons actually not wanting to run map based activities because they find them less entertaining?

Which ignores the fact that people who loves to hoard Gold and spend on nothing is but a fraction of the economy and several more actually farms dungeon gold for their x numbers of legendary weapons and high-end stuffs?

dungeons are not the most effecient means of earning gold
it goes
tp playing>open world cheese farms>dungeons

they really just want to kill the gold faucet of dungeons, and no one at arenanet cares about dungeons anymore, so no ones going to stop em.

you are basically saying dungeons shouldnt even be viable as means for getting anything except dungeon armor and gifts for legendaries.

PopeUrban.2578:

Arenanet:
Dungeons are so full of exploitable loopholes for speedrun farming that it would take virtually the same effort as designing new fractals to fix them. So we’re making farming them non-viable but leaving the skins and old legendary recipies there so they have a purpose.

OP:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN’T FARM BROKEN CONTENT? I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY!

Dude. They’re moving to fractals specifically because fractals are content with more longevity and are a quicker development turnaround. They didn’t design dungeons so people could speedrun CoF1. They don’t see the value in fixing the dungeons when it’s as much work as adding whole new fractals.

On top of that, the new fractal system eliminates the ability to reroll for the exact fractal you want, so they’re comfortable with placing rewards in a system that is, at the very basic level of its design, unfarmable.

On top of that they’re moving the farm to the open world, where it should have always been in the first place. Facerolling through instances which are supposed to be challenging content wasn’t intended play like ever. It was smart players exploiting a broken system.

what are you talking about, the new fractal system lets you select any fractal you want to do.
Also fractals were just as exploitable, the main defense was the random nature of fractals.
expect COF p1 fractal farms now that they removed the randomized nature.

Also the numbering system on fractals is ungainly and will probably have to be redesigned before they start adding any new fractals.

mostly anet economy team just wanted to kill a gold faucet, decent gold earning should actually be in all content, with more earning the more skilled you are, though i dont enjoy dungeon meta, it best fits those ideas.

also dungeons was not the most effecient farm, and was also time gated

Iris Ng.9845:

Sigfodr.9576:

Iris Ng.9845:

Speaking of SW, the value of each champ bag deteriorates greatly due to the popularity of the farm. When it was firstly introduced, you can make easily 200 g in 3-4 hours by abusing it. As soon as the chest map is organized and more people make trains, the gold income drastically drops to the point of only 10 silver per champ bag. It’s a sign that the economy balances the value and influx of gold by this farm and it’s not as unhealthy as we made it to be. (Actually, I’m quite grateful to the chest farmers for bring down the atrocious price of T6 mats that reigns high at 45-70 silvers a piece for months). With the new map rewards, I speculate this farm is gonna die down as it no longer maintains a high reward/hour ratio. Maybe the Orr farm will come back more strongly than ever with Charged Lodestone and Giant Eyes are in the loot table now. Who knows…

This is not how econemy works sry.
Money (of any kind), and in gw2 that is gold only have a value due to what you can get for said gold.

So, by lovering the gold from dungeons and making more people do SW or other farms that mainly provide materials, then that simply mean that the value of gold will go up compered to what we can buy for said gold (deflation). This is the opposit of what we have mainly been seeing (inflation). Now I am going to assume that Anet have some numbers to support this change and that they simply want to reduse the inflation that we have seen so far, but.. the track record of anet is sadly not giving me a lot of hope.

This is exactly what J.S. mentions in his blog post.

The major concern that we’re sure to face is the specific intent of dungeons as a gold-generating activity. To that effect, let’s talk about map rewards.

Map rewards are specific, tangible rewards you receive from playing on a map. They allow players to balance overpriced items as well as seek specific materials for their personal goals without constant uncertainty. Map rewards are pretty great but are a constant enemy of scarcity. Map-reward materials can no longer be overpriced for any extended period of time because players now have the power to push the supply when needed. This shifts the power from the supplier of a rare good to the buyer, because the buyer now has the option to refrain from buying and still achieve goals, which is what we wanted.

which ignores the concept of people who like earning gold in dungeons actually not wanting to run map based activities because they find them less entertaining?

Mightybird.6034:

Not saying I like the change (I like to farm dungeons for cash)…but there is some serious hypocrisy going on here. You guys say the dungeon community LOVEs dungeons in one breath then say it will kill the community in another just because they nerf the monetary reward? If you really like doing an activity the monetary reward being slightly nerfed isn’t going to affect it.

Yall just whining you aint got easy money no mo.

uhhh, no.
I love drawing
i also want to get paid for it.

also dungeons are not the best gold per hour, and are time limited.

point is, now, even more than before, dungeons will be even less effecient at achieving any of the goals in gw2, other than getting dungeon specific armor.

basically the moral of that blog was, our vision of the economy, is one that creates more sustainable grind

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

just to be clear, i dont want raids balanced for exotics, that would make them way too easy. I want ascended aquisition to have a method that is goal/trial oriented over grind/time gate.

and i want a better system for dealing with multiple stat sets, than our regular inventory, which is fairly annoying to deal with already, much less with multiple stat sets reccommended.

Worth likely repeating, the difficulty difference between ‘scaled for ascended’ and ‘scaled for exotic’ is likely insignificant.

• 1)it doesnt really matter, people playing difficult content always want people to bring the best statistics they can.
• 2) also you keep on saying the stats are negligeable, when you mean the stats from armor specifically are negligable. the stat difference in ascended in total are noticeable, unless you dont think something that as a team, contributes something in the range of 12% more offensive effeciency and 3-9%(upper end estimated) more defensive effeciency with the same exact players is noticeable.
• 3) regardless, even if its negligable, it was balanced for ascended, which means ascended aquisition should be logical with the context of a focus on challenging/raid type content.

That’s a HELL of a range for defensive benefit.

Otherwise mainly want to hit 3. Balancing for ascended implies a large number of other things already balanced for, many of which I doubt arenanet will be willing to accept

3% is base difference in armor.
the 9% is a quick estimate based on the fact that tanky players will have more toughness, and how that compounds with healing over time, as well as more healing from healers based on stats.

so basically for defense oriented players they will likely have like 5-6% more defense and healers will get more bang per buck healing them.

and 3 was mostly saying, if ascended is what they expected players to have for raids, than aquisition of ascended should be in line with the type of play raid players would do.
log in rewards, time gates, zerg gold farms are not really the type of play raiders are known for loving.

oh yeah dungeons are getting nerfed rewards, so that even less methods for challenging group content type players to prepare for the inevitable asnd only pls meta that i have no doubt that will be common.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

What a depressing world view some of you have…

Good thing the rest of the world doesn’t follow the logic of this thread or we’d all still be using our oil lamps and horses to get to work at the farm…

People using something incorrectly is NEVER an argument to get rid of that thing.

when the natural use of something causes problems, it is in fact a reason to redesign it, or get rid of it. That is one of the main specifications for engineers.

like cars that used to be designed with sharp objects
baby toys that lend themselves to choking
no emissions standards on cars
old guns that were prone to misfire if not properly cleaned
suceptibility of certain web browsers to exploitation by shady sites
goverment spying on emails
requirement for doors to be push for exit due to fire safety
speed limits on cars
the old vote kick system

its usually the rule more often than not, that things are designed based on worst case scenarios, not doing so, is a fairly bad design paradigm.

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

spoj.9672:

Cant say im upset about this. I dont even have the motivation to do arah anymore.

And i agree rewards should be shifted into raids and fractals and away from dungeons. Though i would hope arah retains some decent level of rewards.

keep in mind you did it to death. What about new or lapsed players? How easy will it be to even attempt dungeons when the rewards no longer encourage people? eh well, whatevs,

Trice.4598:

Eight Samurai.6840:

phys.7689:

dlonie.6547:

I just hope that it’s a fair rebalancing and not an outright hard nerf.

They’ve been out of balance for a while (AC being worth more than everything but Aetherpath and Arah, for instance), and I’d be ok with an adjustment that brings rewards in line with relative instance difficulties.

At the same time, SW chest farming is way more profitable than dungeons, and doesn’t have a daily cap. People say dungeons are mindlessly easy, well, that’s nothing compared to playing ‘follow the leader’ and pressing F every 15 seconds.

Can someone from ArenaNet post the planned reward revisions for early feedback? Might help contain the inevitable kitten storm.

from the blog its going to be an outright nerf, he basically is saying they dont want dungeons to be ecomically feasible. The best you can hope for is that they will give item rewards, but his including the fact they want to shift focus away from it, suggests that they are not seeking to balance it, but to disincetivize it.

which honestly is seems pretty bad. Instance lovers i getting raids, but losing dungeons as a profitable action to take, and raids focus reward on 1 per week.

you ll have a lot less to do, thats effecient earning wise.

You are also assuming that one reward you get per week is actually good and not based on bad RNG…

Yep, can’t wait for this, 10% is considered high, however, I barely get 1 fractal skins every 2 weeks, and that’s doing 40-50 dailies. Now make that a weekly reward

yes, 10% is pretty crappy for a weekly lock out, their idea is its 10% per boss, for i guess 3 bosses, but that means on average you are looking at 1 ascended box per 3 weeks. better of grinding and crafting.

However, perhaps the non ascended rewards are decent

KittyKitty.9234:

I just started the game about 1 month ago. I got to level 80 and I farmed and I farmed and I farmed and now I can afford to get 6/6 Ascended Gear + 1 Weapon. Go me. But….

My hang up are the Laurels….they put a time restriction on the account. I have to wait until I can afford the recipes, which in turn slows down my Ascended accessory progression.

Nerf Laurels please.

i agree, time gates are trash
they are an incredibly simplistic means of slowing people down from their natural paces,

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

just to be clear, i dont want raids balanced for exotics, that would make them way too easy. I want ascended aquisition to have a method that is goal/trial oriented over grind/time gate.

and i want a better system for dealing with multiple stat sets, than our regular inventory, which is fairly annoying to deal with already, much less with multiple stat sets reccommended.

Worth likely repeating, the difficulty difference between ‘scaled for ascended’ and ‘scaled for exotic’ is likely insignificant.

• 1)it doesnt really matter, people playing difficult content always want people to bring the best statistics they can.
• 2) also you keep on saying the stats are negligeable, when you mean the stats from armor specifically are negligable. the stat difference in ascended in total are noticeable, unless you dont think something that as a team, contributes something in the range of 12% more offensive effeciency and 3-9%(upper end estimated) more defensive effeciency with the same exact players is noticeable.
• 3) regardless, even if its negligable, it was balanced for ascended, which means ascended aquisition should be logical with the context of a focus on challenging/raid type content.

Iris Ng.9845:

With the new map reward system, they probably moves certain trophies, T6 mats out of the loot tables to cut down the input to the market. I speculate that there will be some adjustment (read: reduction) to the daily gold reward while keeping the number of tokens in tact. People who do daily dungeon tours of 16-18 paths a day will see a more remarkably nerf to their rewards than people who only enjoys 3-4 paths (read: Arah) a day. I think the nerf is meant to dissuade dungeon farmers from devoting their time and energy to the dungeon gold rewards and instead branching out for different developed and supported content.

It’s pretty clear that dungeons will be no longer further developed. People should stop asking for the impossible.

doesnt mean they need to kill it as a feasible activity.
Should they nerf all drops in ORR too? because hey they arent developing it any more.

dlonie.6547:

I just hope that it’s a fair rebalancing and not an outright hard nerf.

They’ve been out of balance for a while (AC being worth more than everything but Aetherpath and Arah, for instance), and I’d be ok with an adjustment that brings rewards in line with relative instance difficulties.

At the same time, SW chest farming is way more profitable than dungeons, and doesn’t have a daily cap. People say dungeons are mindlessly easy, well, that’s nothing compared to playing ‘follow the leader’ and pressing F every 15 seconds.

Can someone from ArenaNet post the planned reward revisions for early feedback? Might help contain the inevitable kitten storm.

from the blog its going to be an outright nerf, he basically is saying they dont want dungeons to be ecomically feasible. The best you can hope for is that they will give item rewards, but his including the fact they want to shift focus away from it, suggests that they are not seeking to balance it, but to disincetivize it.

which honestly is seems pretty bad. Instance lovers i getting raids, but losing dungeons as a profitable action to take, and raids focus reward on 1 per week.

you ll have a lot less to do, thats effecient earning wise.

its pretty clear, they want dungeons to not only not be further developed, but also dont want it to be a major source of play/economic growth.
That whole blog should scare you.

Short version, Hi, things are going to change a lot, but i want to assure you that our goal is for the game to still be grindy, and to direct that grind to content we want you to play.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

even so, the question is not whether someone who is fractal level 10 should be in raids
the question is whether someone who has played for 2 months-2 years without touching any mildy difficult content is any more capable as someone who played for
3 weeks and is fractal level 30
because the first guy could have full ascended, and the second guy might only have 1 ring.

The first player would probably not survive in the Raid even with full Ascended while the second one has a much higher chance of succeeding even in full Exotics. Keep in mind that having a proper build, team composition and good rotation will result in much much higher efficiency than the difference between Exotic and Ascended, and those cannot be learned while not running difficult content.

I can understand there is a problem balancing Raids with Ascended, especially if you are a returning player, or if you will need to switch your build to fit a new role, getting Ascended Cleric gear to play the Druid in the Raid for example. But I have the sneaky suspicion those asking for Raids to be balanced under Exotics are not those kinds of players.

just to be clear, i dont want raids balanced for exotics, that would make them way too easy. I want ascended aquisition to have a method that is goal/trial oriented over grind/time gate.

and i want a better system for dealing with multiple stat sets, than our regular inventory, which is fairly annoying to deal with already, much less with multiple stat sets reccommended.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Windsagio.1340:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Yeah and thats ridiculously tedious for a modern mmo. Dont ( -_-) us. Its a dumb thing to ask your players to do to play to their best.

It’s also a silly obsession for players to think this matters or particularly enhances gameplay.

Depends on what the raid content will ask of us. Data can be used in any way shape or form be it for the best or for the worst, I am willing to accept the dangers if it means that it can be potentially be used for the greater good of balance.

I also find it completely ignorant and misinformed that some people in this thread would even think that ACTUAL PHIW players especially myself would even knock the idea of performance meters, if anything we’d use it against these meta people as clear factual ON FIELD data that things are clearly out of line given the opportunity and IT WOULD be used in that way in the name of game balance.

And why stop at a dps meter?

Effective Control
Effective Healing
OverHealing
Damage Taken
Damage Avoided
Projectiles Destroyed
Break Bar Destruction
Effective Boon Uptime
Effective Aegis
Effective Protection
Boon Removal
Interrupts

Not even the tip of the ice berg lettuce,

Let’s get the who shibang rolling.

no one said phiw people would be against it.

the argument is that you shouldnt have it. a lot of people would like 1 million dollars, giving everyone a million dollars however is not of benefit to society as a whole.

being able to do statistical breakdowns does not engender the type of gameplay they once sought to create, they want people playing in the moment

Ayrilana.1396:

Let me ask this:

If ascended had been available at release, would people still be having complaints about it?

• Rings and back items were introduced on 11/15/12.
• Amulets were introduced on 1/28/13.
• Accessories were introduced on 2/26/13.
• Weapons were introduced on 9/3/13.
• Armor was introduced on 12/10/13.

It’s been a little over two years since ascended weapons were released and almost the same since armor. Had Anet released all ascended when the game was released, and then two years later they released HoT with raids, would you all still be complaining about ascended?

well, yes they would.
I mean it depends which complaints you are talking about

main complaints about ascended
grindy/time gate/limits build variety involving stats

ascended was created as a time reward/busywork/economic stimulus as a prestige stat boost, that was mostly unecessary, except for in fractals, which only required 3 pieces, and gave you progress on that front from doing fractals as you progress deeper.

It doesnt fit as being tied to raid progression.

now if ascended was in the game from start, an anet never said they believe in fast best in slot, people probably wouldnt complain about course change, however all the other complaints would still be there. Many of the people complaining about ascended came in the game when it already existed. Not all players still playing have been here for 3 years, probably not even most players at this point.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Fractal level of 10 is all thats needed.

And I will ask again. Do you honestly believe someone who only reached level 10 in Fractals will have a good time in Raids?

Ohoni.6057:

Because Colin seemed pretty adamant on the idea of “no attuning?”

Yes I said not a hard gate, as a requirement. But if someone hasn’t run the previous content on the difficulty curve how are they supposed to succeed in Raids. If a player doesn’t want to run instanced content how will they magically start running Raids? Because it’s for 10 people and they can “hide” better? I doubt that will be possible, if anything it will be harder to get carried in the Raid than in Fractals, so why?

No attuning helps with players who are good at running the game anyway, they can possibly run it in full Exotics without problems. It also helps if you have multiple accounts, loads of characters and those who would have to change gear to play a different role.

That doesn’t mean there is no actual “attunement” here, do you think a fresh level 80 with master/rare gear and a couple of Exotics, not all skills/traits unlocked, without a proper build, would have a good time in Silverwastes and/or Verdant Brick?

fractal level 10 is only required for faster acessories,
even so, the question is not whether someone who is fractal level 10 should be in raids
the question is whether
someone who has played for 2 months-2 years without touching any mildy difficult content is any more capable as someone who played for
3 weeks and is fractal level 30
because the first guy could have full ascended, and the second guy might only have 1 ring.

which is to say there is no coorelation to the amount of ascended you have, and the amount of skill you have, which makes it an inappropriate gate for raid type content.

and yeah i know multiple people who could be ready for raids in this game in 2 weeks or less, barring ascended, im sure most people do.

I also know a bunch of people who never bothered with ascended and left the game who could be ready for raids day 1, barring ascended.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Maybe having full exotics will not be a guarantee of failure, but it’s going to significantly increase chances of failing.

This is a lie, +20 Primary Stats and +16 Secondary Stats (the benefit of full Ascended Armour) will never “significantly” increase your chances of winning. Do not fall for this argument it is NONSENSE.

“Full exotics”. Learn to read.

“Full Exotics” means you have a play time of less than a month, raiding isn’t for you… Learn to think.

There are many prople who. Can play at a level of raids without needing a month of play.

Its like you using how long someone owned basketball sneakers as a measure of their skill.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

In my opinion, it shouldnt take a month of grinding or time gates to get be ready for raids.

To be honest I do not agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, “grinding” is one thing I truly dislike, but why don’t you see this from the perspective of difficulty? Why do you expect, or even want, players to go directly into Raids?

You are talking about a “gate” required for players before they enter the Raid. But do you honestly believe that players who haven’t done Fractals / Dungeons will have any luck in Raids? Would you really want someone to come with you in the raid that hasn’t ever run a Dungeon or is only at level 8 in Fractals? Those things alone mean his experience in GW2 instanced content is very limited, so their ability to help in the Raid will also be severely limited.

If we are to believe that Raids will be much harder than any other current content, then shouldn’t everyone spend at least a month running the lower difficulty instanced content of the game? Before trying the Raid? And if you actually spend some time in Fractals, chances are you will get a lot of your Ascended items already.

Fractal level of 10 is all thats needed.
What you are saying might be true if ascended was given for skill, but its not.
Ascended is currently primarily a gold grind based system for weapons and armor (which is mindless grind in current ear ing meta)
Time gated for necklace
Time gated and social gated for accessories
And gold/grind gated for back piece

Ascended is primarily a minimal participation award.

Truth is people get better by doing difficult things. The content that will best get people ready for raids currently is raids.
Most dungeon runs barely require you to pay attention, and hivh level fractals is nice, but way more repetition than is necessary to adapt to the skill curve.

I think a fresh 80 who wants to learn will perform similarly to an old 80 who has full ascended and never touched a fractal, and perform similarly to most people who have got to fractal 10 for some acessories.

If they had a raid progression, or content that needed teamwork communication and undertsnading of your builds strengths, weaknesses etc, sure beat that before you get to raids, but ascended is extremely far from that.

And even if they did, it should not be designed such that you must play x content everyday for a month. It should adapt to the skills and knowledge of the player in question. Some people may take a week, some may take a month, some may take 6 months.

Sykper.6583:

That happens regardless of any marginally difficult content that ‘requires’ a group (I know dungeons can be done solo, but we know what their intent was).

The onus is definitely on the players, and the entirety of how raids will be carried out is on us most definitely. The degree of which toxicity will occur though, is still completely up in the air. We can only go with what the community is doing right now, how groups of friends and guilds are working with current content.

Its all good to say its up the players how they handle things, but if you build a road, people will walk it.
Design plays a large part of how people will interact with the world.

since ascended is no longer a prestige type stat increase, the methods of aquisition need to change to reflect that.
Since it looks like ascended is primarily for high difficulty stuff, the faster means of aquisition should focus on difficult content.

In my opinion, it shouldnt take a month of grinding or time gates to get be ready for raids.

Also i believe they need to abandon the current gearing/inventory system, and go with a system of
wardrobes for appearance
stat equipment unlocks for stats.
they seem to be trying to promote multiple sets of ascended, and build tweaking, but the item system present doesnt create that type of gameplay, due to sigil/runes/inventory/time to obtain/appearance

Ohoni.6057:

Thats because you don’t do high level Fractals – why suddenly in such a fuss over new high end content when you’ve avoided it for 2 years…

Because it’s not Fractals. I’ve done all the Fractals, I have no interest in doing them again, and again, and gain, and again.

I’m not saying the way you play the game is wrong but you clearly have interests that don’t cover “difficult” content, so why try and inflict your philosphy on people who do like that content?

Because ANet seems intent on making it a significant part of the game, by making it the course of Legendary Precursor armors and a continuation of the story. If they were as vestigial as the Fractals then it wouldn’t be an issue.

strictly speaking, i think they said its the equivalent of a side story, but maybe they changed their plan

what hero point needs a group? there are sometimes round about ways of getting them

Amineo.8951:

They actually said they will improve fractals and make more instances like Living Story Season 2 (I thought some of these were great, like the Shadow of the Dragon fights).

the way they are “improving” fractals, is with stat tweaks, and reorganizing content. They basically are wrapping it up and putting a bow on it.

the new system they have put in place is a lot less elegantly scalable, which suggests adding to fractals was not part of its design specifications.

every fractal is numbered now, from 1-100.
fractal dailies will use these numbers
fractals dailies teirs are also by the numbers.

so if they made new fractals, they would either have to put them at 100+ effectively locking them from most players, and fairly daunting for new players.

or they have to renumber and reorginize dailies every time they add a fractal.

neither sounds like something they would want to design into place.

Now anet changes their mind all the time, and if fractals becomes super popular they may support it more, but as of right now, doesnt seem like a priority.

so far the only thing it seems like gw2 consistently focuses on is story, and shop of course.
the last new fractals was about 2 years ago now.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

you know, difficult content has been beaten without dps meters many times over.

tatistics usually is best used once people have solved the problems, and are more focused on optimization rather than problem solving, increasing skill, etc.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

I think this whole discussion comes down to closed thinking.

People associate progression gear with ‘hard’ and raids, so they think progression gear == actual difficult content.

The thread maybe, the situation no. Fact is it exists. If they tune for exotics then ascended is overpowered. You either need to scale the ascended to exotic levels rendering that extra money you spent useless, or tell your players to suck it up and get the best stuff if you want to max out your abilities in raids. That’s the situation. Either works, it’s just who are they more concerned with upsetting? Those that spent the time/money on ascended, or those too lazy to do so? (yes I know it’s an inflammatory way of putting it but really ascended isn’t hard to acquire, it’s tradeable within your account, and weapons/trinkets make up the majority of the power from it which are even easier to acquire than armor).

The problem with this is simple:

Ascended weapons and trinkets are about a 3% boost.full armor is an additional 2% boost.

Picking the wrong utility skill or trait has a massively greater effect on your effectiveness, offensively or defensively than ‘full ascended’ ever will.

And they can’t tune to that fine a level If they attune to the 2% of full ascended armor, that means that they’ve already tuned to the most efficient group/build makeup that they can think of . Yeah they want it hard, but doing that is suicide — also nearly impossible.

The numbers on ascended gear is well known (although I see some people occasionally throw some crazy numbers out, the math’s been worked many times, including a few in this thread). Given that, it’s just not meaningful, one is left wondering why people are so convinced it is. I have 2 reasons.

1) A dev said it was required (later retracted to reccomended) and they still haven’t fully retracted that statement.

2) Players associate gear progression with raiding so it ‘makes sense’ to them.

Where are you getting those numbers? As far as I’m aware Weapons + Trinkets is a 12.5% dps boost (remember things multiply) for power damage, and armor another about 2.5 for a ~15% total.

I took that partiular example from upthread somewhere (or my memory of it).

Even granting I’m remembering wrong about weapons/trinkets, the numbers for armor are close, and armor is the primary cost in ‘full ascended’.

So take the revised statement: “Partial ascended is recommended for all raids, and the late ones recommend full ascended.” If I grant 10%, the ‘partial’ kind of works, but in what world does the ‘full’ work?

Ascended armor still cannot be a meaningful limitation

Naw Armor won’t be a huge thing, but it could be the difference between a near win and a failure.

Only in the absolute least way. So many other things have more impact,

really depends how much unavoidable damage is in raids as the game continues.

3% reduction in damage compounds with healing in long fights.

and even though you dont believe it, they can optimize fight success on having protection up/90% of the time and clearing conditions within 2-3 seconds, as well as strong average heal per second while still maintaing X dps on a boss ( to beat enrage)

its just mathematics at that point.

Mortifer.2946:

What the… 142 PAGES?! Are you crazy?? Get over it.

basically the thread shows that people dont love the price. People will argue bout it, and new people will remark they dont like it, because its an issue of interest.

This will change as less people consider returning to the game, the price goes down, or they have enough content to make people feel 50 is a good price.

at this point this thread is more useful for future pricing, and for anet considering sales or how fast they shift to a new price point.

In my opinion, anet will end up losing money, because many lost interest, or will buy from another retailer at a discount. (which loses them A LOT of money, not just the sale price difference) for their own best interest, hope they handle it better in the future

unless they have a means of controlling the price other retailers sell the game for.

short version:
anet doesnt care about dungeons.

i discussed this issue before, when i had more recently come back from ffxiv, and saw how much better they structured their instance systems.

basically ffxiv is superior mostly because they have an lfg like system with filters AS WELL as a, automatic pug system, which is more rewarding for working with newbies.

anet has not willing to improve dungeons or even fractal culture for sometime.

Looking at the new fractal update, it strongly suggests that they wont be adding new levels any time soon.

anet generally starts new concepts and abandons old concepts.

so yeah dungeons are, and will continue to be the wild west. The only hope you have of your issue being mitigated, is if they do some new content and decide to invent a better system for it, which they can shoe horn into dungeons.

you guys are still not getting it, this isnt a natural survival of the fittest environment. This is a an engineered reality.
You keep looking at it like, sure some people will abuse it, and it might be negative, but you shouldnt associate with those people anyway..

Thats not the way you design a system thats meant to be used by a lot of people, you dont design to the self selected few. You design to the most common use. While your tight knit highly selective friend group may be fine, its a problem if you as a designer, design a system that is prone to abuse, or creates degenerative play.

Yes, you guys might use them greatly, no, the vast majority of people see a meter and a rank, they see winners and losers. Pass or fail.

Sure you few guys might love to test so you can figure out how to help poor timmy do math, but the company and colleges test so that they can get the people who are already good at something.

not to mention, they dont want you playing the UI or the spreadsheet.

Zach.2618:

So people complaining want the raid reward skins for free? Lols this is just ridiculous, everyone and everything has a purpose in life. The raid reward skins were created to be raid rewards. If it would be given out for free it might as well not exist. So you want all skins to be available to everyone for free? I’m not one to complain, I’ve been pvping since the launch of gw2 and believe me it was not as rewarding as it is now.. Are you suggesting you want raids to have no rewards? How can challenging content be rewarding without an exclusive reward? It’s like the legendaries now the people have been complaining about, it’s not legendary if everyone and their Mom has one because people can buy it with gold. They shouldn’t have called the raid rewards legendaries than people wouldn’t complain so much, just call it raid rewards. And again what is with people saying ascended gear takes months and months to obtain? They must be playing a diff game from me because on Monday I got an ascended weapon box from pvp on Wednesday I got armor box from fractals and just today I got another weapon box. In that time I’ve crafted bolt of damask Everyday and crafted a piece of ascended chest piece for cheap. Not to mention the tons of ascended rings I got. What game are you playing that ascended gear takes months and months to get. Maybe you’re not playing the game at all?

the fastest method, involving rng, according to you is fractals
which requires:
ascended rings:
which require a daily chest to roll on
you need level 10 and before you can get a random roll for a ring
you need to get to 40+ for a decent chance of a drop
Do you think most people can climb 50 fractals, and win the rng battle, in less than a month?
time wise alone thats like 50-75 hours. and the unlocks are daily.
yeah its possible, but fairly unlikely, and would require like 3-6 hours a day dedicated to fractals alone.(once you get multiple chances per teir)

JVJD.4912:

Err nope, there doesn’t seem to be any berserk or enrage timer any dps increase is just a bonus not needed

joking?
there is a enrage timer. And many groups were unable to beat it even when surviving fine.

To all the people talking about how something could be used smartly and in a nice way.

Too bad, when you design any solution to a problem, you always must consider the ramifications of the wrong use, as well as what the most common uses would be.

For example, group based loot, and rolling on loot. Excellent when used well by a nice group of players.
Horrible implications when used by the masses, or used incorrectly.

The old kick system, horrible when used incorrectly.

Would not be a good idea to support dps meters

Bri.8354:

Enrage timers in their current state are nothing but a DPS test. Players can have the mechanics down, but if their damage isn’t high enough, the timer kicks in and wipes them all.

I’m not sure if this is the best way to approach difficulty in raids. It forces a DPS meta onto everyone, where they must meet strict damage requirements within a timeframe and doesn’t allow much flexibility in builds or playstyles. But at the same time, enrage is needed. Without it players could run extremely defensive builds without any downside but slower kill speeds.

What I believe we need is a less strict enrage system, one which causes the fight to become more difficult as time goes on, not as a defeat timer like in the current implementation. Enrage could have multiple phases, and when each one is reached either the mechanics could become more strict or certain effects, which could be similar to fractal instabilities, could occur.

For instance, against the Vale Guardian:
• Enrage tier 1: Lightning AoE activates faster, forcing players to gather in the circle quicker.
• Enrage tier 2: Teleports activate faster. When a player is teleported they suffer from torment.
• Enrage timer 3: The red orbs cause an effect similar to agony, dramatically decreasing healing effectiveness and pulsing slight damage over a few seconds.

With effects like these enrage would become a more interesting and skill based mechanic. It would require players to change the way they play and give less room for error when dealing with the mechanics, which is much better than a hard timer that increases damage to absurd levels, guaranteeing defeat soon after its activation.

It does sound interesting, but flaw is good dps is also about skill full play. Just dealing with the dAmage is only half the difficulty.
Maintaining stacks of might, keeping pressure on the boss, taking advantage of breaks and vulnerability.

This is part of the skill full play involved.
Basically beating a well designed enrage timer increases the skill required.

However i wouldnt totally hate your idea if well implemented

dlonie.6547:

This does sort of worry me. Unless ascended salvaging is amazingly profitable, these are going to be trash drops (like fractal rings) after a while.

If salvaging these things just gives us bloodstone dust and obi shards, I’d much rather see a token system for buying ascended gear, and let drops be something I can throw on the TP if I don’t need them.

tokens would lead to the same problem except youd have useless tokens. chances arem if they add salvaging, they will also make mats more needed. Legendary crafting will probably use a decent amount.

keep in mind as well, the good stuff is limited to 1/week

it might still be a problem long term, but i dont think tokens would change much.5

Ok ascended loot boxes is a good start. Too bad its only once per week/10% chance.

Hopefully they tweak that to 100% for raid completion and maybe a random 10% for raid bossses.

1 piece per week aint that crazy

dlonie.6547:

We’re going to have to agree to disagree, phys.

We’ve shown with math and examples of real-life clears of the content that exotic-geared players are capable of progressing past this boss.

We’ve shown that the difference between ascended gear and exotic gear is small enough that it will not prevent an exotics-clad team from depleting the Vale Guardian’s health before the timer runs out.

We’ve provided sound, logical arguments that the odds of a 10-man team that is solely geared in exotics (which could still beat the content) will not be a common occurrence.

We’ve shown that it is trivial to obtain enough ascended pieces that, by the time a player is ready skill-wise to enter a raid, they should still have a nice boost over the required and sufficient exotic gear.

I’m not sure what else there is to say. Your sole complaint seems to be that the Challenging Group Content is challenging, and that better gear is better than worse gear.

It’s a rare occurrence, but I’m at a loss for words at this point.

no you miss my point entirely, you assume i want to make the content tuned for exotics.
My point is
Its going effectively be that most people need ascended to do it.
therefore obtaining ascended needs to be more in line with raid progression, and how skilled players play, which is less based on time spend or days since purchase, and more about beating difficult content.

Lets look at fractal progression, which was not perfect, but has a clear progression.

Everything you need to progress in fractals, is available in fractals
by playing harder, you can obtain progress notably faster.
You can play hard and get to level 10 fast, which will give you more chances for a ring per day, and the mist essences to upgrade.
beating fractals allows you to get/buy agony infusion.

you can hit 80, start doing fractals instantly, as you get better, everything you need to progress in fractals is given to you as you proceed.
you only need rings/backpiece to get the maximum required agony resist, as you progress you are more likely to get the things you need.
It has some bumps,and is a little grindy(moreso since the change i think) but it in general allows you to progress in the type of play you are trying to advance in. a hardcore fractal guy, can probably get 2 rings, from level 0 fractals in a week. See how it adapts to the type of player? (somewhat)

Ascended aquisition is only like this for fractals.
armor, accessories, and amulet are based around entirely different paradigms
amulet is a log in reward
weapons is crafting /gold/gathering bonus
armor is a larger crafting /gold/gathering/bonus
backpiece is fractal based, but requires a high level of investment, or gold grind.

point is, as the game currently is, even though ascended must be reccomended for raid progression(or it would be easy), the means of obtaining what you need are not in line with skilled play which focuses on acheiving more difficult things less often, as opposed to time gates, and gold grind which generally represent an almost opposite playstyle/mindset.

dlonie.6547:

phys.7689:

Ascended is going to be, by the vast majority a, player enforced expectation for participating in raids.

First off, this isn’t true. There are more casuals than hardcore players in this game. I’m an officer in a casual PvE guild that will not be enforcing ascended gear, and there are plenty of others out there, too. If these people want to raid without being forced into ascended gear, they just need to find an appropriate group to play with.

And more to the point, what are you advocating? Seriously, I want to know what your solution to these alleged problems would be.

From what I gather, you want to retune the encounter so that players in exotics won’t be pushed as hard.

Well, ascended gear is still better. The minmaxers are still going to push for ascended gear. Casual players still won’t care. All that happens is that the encounter gets neutered, and now those new players won’t be challenged by the content when they do get ascended gear.

This game has tried balancing endgame content around new/low-level players. Just look at AC — It doesn’t improve anything. Top tier endgame should be balanced for endgame players. ArenaNet has been more than generous by already allowing exotics to suffice.

casual people are going to be some of the first people requiring ascended, because its the most controllable aspect, and having less time, they will want to ensure that victory is more likely.
A few high end relaxed people like yourself may exist, but even you cannot handle the large influx of sub geared people. You assume all the sub gear people will be ok with being handicapped. Most wont be, they will either focus on ascended, or quit playing, or decide to ignore raids.

And my solution would not be to retune the battle for exotics, that would only decrease the skill required, and ruin the content for everyone.

Basically they need to improve ascended aquisition to be more skill based, or have a more skill based method of obtaining it in addition to the old options.

progressing to get to play raids should be the type of content a raid player might enjoy not log in rewards and mindless grinds to get around the time gates

They need to reduce time gates, or get rid of them. Needing to log in even when you have nothing you want to do, shouldnt really be a gate for content. i know you guys figure joining a pre existing mission running guild just to get accessories is cool, but a lot of players dont see it that way, they feel like they are using the guild, or that they dont want to join this type of structure, this is lessened by them removing representation(i hear) but a lot of people wont be comfortable joining for this purpose, which basically takes them from one month to 3? months? Even leeching accessories from another guild, your still looking at 4 weeks, which is mostly waiting for a weekly reset.

lastly, with more gear becoming viable, and even reccomended, they need to build a system that handles multiple gear sets and swaps much better
take a look at this
http://ffxiv.wikia.com/wiki/Armoury_Chest
they basically set up a special inventory for different gears, you can literally carry around enough gear for 25 builds without dipping into your general inventory

which combines with the gear set system
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BpOQkLXqTGo/hqdefault.jpg
you can basically create a multitude of gear sets, and swap them with a single button press, pulling from the armory chest.

I always though gw2 needed this, but now with how they seem to want to handle raids, it seems even more necessary. I wouldnt use the exact system because gw2 has different concerns.
Id probably say they should create a gear stat unlock system, where a legendary unlocks all gear stats, and binding a gear set unlocks that stat/rarity. It could even have some resource based on exp/skill shards tied to it, if they want to make it more

dlonie.6547:

phys.7689:

Do you really think if you handed a fresh 80 all the gear he needs, and trained him 2 hours a day for a week he would be unable to progress? I highly doubt it.

Please reread my post. I went out of my way to mention that a full party of inexperienced, undergeared players should not be able to clear it easily (As in, during their first few sessions).

If they put the time in to practice it, yes, they’ll get it eventually. In a week? Sure, if they’re dedicated to practice and fast learners.

And the point here is that not having ascended gear won’t prevent them from progressing. It’s about whether they’re willing to put in the time to practice the encounters and learn their to play their classes at a high level of proficiency. A single DPS trait worth of damage loss won’t make or break the team’s success.

a single dps trait on all players will make or break the teams success. Skill full play when it comes to this type of content has diminishing returns.
Basically you need more and more skill to get less and less gains. The perfect run team and the really good run team might only end up being seconds apart.

so essentially trying to get an extra 10% from skillfull play will be a noticeably tougher feat.
Also you are ignoring survivability in your analysis. taking 3-5% ,pre damage and healing for 2% less over the course of an 8 minute fight thats basically 1-2 less mistakes that can be made with the same success.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

dlonie.6547:

Astralporing.1957:

dlonie.6547

Ascended gear is a 10% increase over exotics.

About 15% for damage for the dps gear.

Can you share your source on that? I made up a quick spreadsheet (attached).

If any more experienced theorycrafters out there can shed some light on these numbers, it’d be appreciated, but it really seems as though both the 10% and 15% increases are exaggerated from these numbers. I assume those higher estimates account for buffs, rotations, etc? Are they looking at precision/ferocity/etc instead of effective crit chance/crit dmg? Or are they just not real?:

It makes it seem like there’s a larger difference between ascended and exotic if it gets rounded up. That’s probably why some people say 15%. I’ve seen it reported that the difference is about 10.28% without infusions and 12.5% with infusions.

https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/31wbip/ascended_vs_exotic_gear_comparison_spreedsheet

Even then, those people complaining about ascended ignore how incredibly easy it is to get trinkets. Ignoring daily achievement awards, it’ll take you 20 days to get both rings. It’ll take 4 weeks to get the commendations for the accessories. It’ll take 21 days to get enough laurels to buy the amulet from the WvW vendor. The back item can be made for under 10G.

All of these account for just a little under half of the damage boost. New players will likely have to wait a bit IF they feel they need these but then, with how challenging raids are supposed to be, would these players really have the skills necessary to beat them? We saw people who have played since launch fail repeatedly last weekend.

28 days is a long time.

The point has never been that ascended will automatically win you raids i dont lnow why you keep bringing that up

Because you keep making the claim that it will over exotics. You at no point acknowledge what else goes into with encounters.

The 28 days is not a long time. Raids are permanent. We have at least that long until they go live.

why would i mention something that is obvious and assumed to be true?
Of course skill is the main determinant of success on any challenging content (or it would not be challenging).
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the point.
Ascended is going to be, by the vast majority a, player enforced expectation for participating in raids.

I am sure because player psychology is simple, the raid was designed/balanced based on having ascended, and the data we have been shown coroborates that it will be a definate advantage in an encounter with an uncertain outcome.

dlonie.6547:

phys.7689:

28 days is a long time.

If a full team of players who just joined the game 28 days ago could clear it, even in ascended gear, I’d not be happy with the difficulty with the content.

This is supposed to be a challenge for the many, many players who, today, have been soloing/duoing/etc Arah/FotM/etc for years. I don’t see how the accessibility to a month-old player is relevant.

Do you really want a full team of players who just got to 80 and are just starting to have access to exotic gear to be able to beat the top tier PvE content?

And just to be clear, they can still participate in the content at that point, but should need to be part of a more experienced team while they learn the ropes.

Uhh im pretty sure no one who actually wants to, needs a month of training to get good enough for raids.
Humans respond to stimulus, when there is a reason to improve, most will find a way to succeed.
raids will take a week of concerted effort if that for people to be able to beat it, starting from just being a level 80.

Do you really think if you handed a fresh 80 all the gear he needs, and trained him 2 hours a day for a week he would be unable to progress? I highly doubt it.

Jerus.4350:

Aye, they basically gave everyone a heads up “hey stop wasting your Laurels, start saving up and prepping, you’ll want ascended” and they did it with more than enough time to pull that off.

I see this mistake made time and time again.

You do not create systems based around the concept that people have been preparing for it for years, unless you only want that content to work for those people.

I have full ascended.
do all of my friends, who the expansion is trying to get back into the game?
does everyone who comes to the game from this point forward?
does the guy who wont become interested in raids till he sees them in game?

dlonie.6547:

Tree.3916:

checkmate? kappa

Heh, is that directed at me? If I did something stupid feel free to call me out on it

I’m not terribly familiar with how these numbers translate into DPS, so it’s entirely possible that I left something out. I’ve just heard a lot of different numbers thrown around and want to pin down an accurate representation of the relevant stat changes and the practical difference between the performance of the gear sets.

The tool tip says 12.5 with infusions does that include criticals and crit chance?

Thats my main question

Ayrilana.1396:

dlonie.6547:

Astralporing.1957:

dlonie.6547

Ascended gear is a 10% increase over exotics.

About 15% for damage for the dps gear.

Can you share your source on that? I made up a quick spreadsheet (attached).

If any more experienced theorycrafters out there can shed some light on these numbers, it’d be appreciated, but it really seems as though both the 10% and 15% increases are exaggerated from these numbers. I assume those higher estimates account for buffs, rotations, etc? Are they looking at precision/ferocity/etc instead of effective crit chance/crit dmg? Or are they just not real?:

It makes it seem like there’s a larger difference between ascended and exotic if it gets rounded up. That’s probably why some people say 15%. I’ve seen it reported that the difference is about 10.28% without infusions and 12.5% with infusions.

https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/31wbip/ascended_vs_exotic_gear_comparison_spreedsheet

Even then, those people complaining about ascended ignore how incredibly easy it is to get trinkets. Ignoring daily achievement awards, it’ll take you 20 days to get both rings. It’ll take 4 weeks to get the commendations for the accessories. It’ll take 21 days to get enough laurels to buy the amulet from the WvW vendor. The back item can be made for under 10G.

All of these account for just a little under half of the damage boost. New players will likely have to wait a bit IF they feel they need these but then, with how challenging raids are supposed to be, would these players really have the skills necessary to beat them? We saw people who have played since launch fail repeatedly last weekend.

28 days is a long time.

The point has never been that ascended will automatically win you raids i dont lnow why you keep bringing that up